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Feb 8, 2003, 1:54:24 PM2/8/03

freebsd-chat-digest Saturday, February 8 2003 Volume 05 : Number 696

In this issue:
Re: GGI (was: Project Status)
Re: GGI (was: Project Status)
Re: GGI (was: Project Status)
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
收入增加的方法
OT: Tuxedo.org?
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: OT: Tuxedo.org?
digital drug
Re: OT: Tuxedo.org?
OT: Tuxedo.org?
Re: Tuxedo.org? (fwd)
Re: languages
we rule!
Re: languages
Re: languages

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 20:48:00 +0200 (EET)
From: Narvi <na...@haldjas.folklore.ee>
Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status)

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 10:33 AM, Narvi wrote:
>
> >
> > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> This is probably the most important aspect of any desktop. A coherent
> >> system. A desktop needs consistency, ease of use and applications.
> >>
> >> Sometime too much choice is just as bad, or worse, than no choice at
> >> all. I want to be able to setup a system that will look and feel the
> >> same for 99% of cases. I want to be able to use quicken, or word, or
> >> that cool photo app. I want my itunes, my instant messenger. That is
> >> what people say. Most don't have the time or care to get deeply
> >> involved in their computer, they want it to be just another electronic
> >> device they use, like a vcr, or a tv.
> >>
> >> So the question becomes, does FreeBSD as a whole want to target this
> >> user audience? Is there the collective will to make that a reality?
> >> If the answer is no, I would think resources are best directed
> >> elsewhere perhaps?
> >>
> >
> > There is no point in dragging - or trying to drag - FreeBSD as a whole
> > into this. Its not useful and furthermore not the way things get done.
> > They way to get things done is:
> >
> > * find similarily minded people who want to see it happen
> >
>
> Perhaps, but there also needs to be some level of commitment at the
> core level. And I don't just mean core@, i mean a willingness overall
> to have things move in that direction on some level.
>

I think there is sufficent amount of this

> > * *DECIDE* (and later keep to the decision) as to what exactly
> > your target audience is
> >
>
> Well that is a given, trying to please everyone all of the time is
> impossible.
>

Exactly - and different groups are best served by different

>
> > * and then you just deal with the needed decisions that come from
> > the first two parts to end up with a desktop package
> >
>
> This is not so simple. There are more factors than just what someone
> likes to use. What I like or you like may be horrible for the target
> audience. You have to worry about maintainability among other
> things. Compatability, future compatability, etc etc...
>

This is why you need to deal with the decisions - and make the ones that
may seem the wrong ones for you *personaly*, but are a better fit for the
target audience.

>
> > But really its a huge amount of work and includes many quite quirky
> > decisions even when starting for a well-known base like GNOME/KDE
> > (alphabetical ordering).
> >
>
> Yes, also when using a third party base you lose some control. Since
> now you have to compensate for their packages and quirks and bugs and
> localizations.
>

Its unlikely you will have the resources to start something like gnomeor
kde from scratch, and imho an utter waste of time. Instead you should
start with the base and add your own customisation layer that fixes up
some of the things and changes others.

> - --Larry
>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:00:48 -0500
From: Larry Sica <lom...@mac.com>
Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status)

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On Friday, February 7, 2003, at 01:48 PM, Narvi wrote:

>
> On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote:
>
>
> Exactly - and different groups are best served by different
>
>>
>>> * and then you just deal with the needed decisions that come from
>>> the first two parts to end up with a desktop package
>>>
>>
>> This is not so simple. There are more factors than just what someone
>> likes to use. What I like or you like may be horrible for the target
>> audience. You have to worry about maintainability among other
>> things. Compatability, future compatability, etc etc...
>>
>
> This is why you need to deal with the decisions - and make the ones
> that
> may seem the wrong ones for you *personaly*, but are a better fit for
> the
> target audience.
>
>>
>>> But really its a huge amount of work and includes many quite quirky
>>> decisions even when starting for a well-known base like GNOME/KDE
>>> (alphabetical ordering).
>>>
>>
>> Yes, also when using a third party base you lose some control. Since
>> now you have to compensate for their packages and quirks and bugs and
>> localizations.
>>
>
> Its unlikely you will have the resources to start something like
> gnomeor
> kde from scratch, and imho an utter waste of time. Instead you should
> start with the base and add your own customisation layer that fixes up
> some of the things and changes others.
>

You misundestood me here, I was not saying not to use one or the other,
merely that there will always be some part that is not under one's
control fully.

- - --Larry

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:21:43 +0200 (EET)
From: Narvi <na...@haldjas.folklore.ee>
Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status)

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote:

>
> You misundestood me here, I was not saying not to use one or the other,
> merely that there will always be some part that is not under one's
> control fully.
>
>

Ah, ok. But this is always true 8-)

> - --Larry
>
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>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:18:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Chris Dillon <cdi...@wolves.k12.mo.us>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Randall Hamilton wrote:

> Generally, When a group of people(Read: Corperation) are looking
> to finance and/or fund a major development process, they do so only
> after they research WHAT they are doing. The half ass approch of
> saying "dude, you know anyone into this whole java thing?" really
> does not cut it. There is a reasons that corperations spend
> millions on research, focus groups, and testing on any product they
> release....anyone care to wager what it is?

Everybody who thinks the FF needed to first do more "research"
obviously fails to understand the fact that they are volunteers, and
they are already doing as much as they can on their own time, on their
own dime. Who is to spend the time to do this research? They did as
much research as they could afford and thought was necessary, and that
research was to talk with their two contacts in the project. That IS
research. Maybe, once the FF has large enough amounts of donations
rolling in, they'll be able to distrust everybody they want to give
money to and hire a private investigator to go around and ferret out
all of the Black Helicopters. Until then, they don't and can't.

- --
Chris Dillon - cdillon(at)wolves.k12.mo.us
FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet
- Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures
- IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, ARM, and S/390 under development
- http://www.freebsd.org

No trees were harmed in the composition of this message, although some
electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 12:36:37 -0800
From: Mayo Jordanov <ma...@nfy.ca>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)

Chris Dillon wrote:

>On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Randall Hamilton wrote:
>
>
>
>> Generally, When a group of people(Read: Corperation) are looking
>>to finance and/or fund a major development process, they do so only
>>after they research WHAT they are doing. The half ass approch of
>>saying "dude, you know anyone into this whole java thing?" really
>>does not cut it. There is a reasons that corperations spend
>>millions on research, focus groups, and testing on any product they
>>release....anyone care to wager what it is?
>>
>>
>
>Everybody who thinks the FF needed to first do more "research"
>obviously fails to understand the fact that they are volunteers, and
>they are already doing as much as they can on their own time, on their
>own dime. Who is to spend the time to do this research? They did as
>much research as they could afford and thought was necessary, and that
>research was to talk with their two contacts in the project. That IS
>research. Maybe, once the FF has large enough amounts of donations
>rolling in, they'll be able to distrust everybody they want to give
>money to and hire a private investigator to go around and ferret out
>all of the Black Helicopters. Until then, they don't and can't.
>
Could you stop this discussion in this list already PLEASE? This is
getting totaly off topic, and I think that's what the -chat list is for.
I get enough email during the day, I don't need even more, and that's
why I did not sign up for the -chat list. And if I remember right, there
was number of requests to stop this discussion in this list already.

If you are doing reply to all just take ja...@freebsd.org out of the
CC/TO fields. It's not that hard. Someone who is on the the -chat list,
rely time message too please. (Don't think it will get there if I'm not
gined up)

Thanks,
mayo

------------------------------

Date: 08 Feb 2003 08:12:11 +0800
From: je...@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: 收入增加的方法

<body bgcolor="#CC0000" text="#000000">
<div align="center">
<object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=5,0,0,0" width="500" height="380">
<param name=movie value="http://us.greet1.yimg.com/img.greetings.yahoo.com/g/img/ykimo/2000122229371.swf">
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<embed src="http://us.greet1.yimg.com/img.greetings.yahoo.com/g/img/ykimo/2000122229371.swf" quality=high pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="500" height="380">
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 新年禮物送您一台<a href="http://www.pmo.com.tw/entry/document/member/pmd/heart/web/newyearlist88.html">印鈔機</a><a href="http://www.pmo.com.tw/entry/document/member/pmd/heart/NICK%A4%BD%A8%C6%A5%5D/%B7s%A6%7E%AA%A9%AA%ED%B3%E6.html">
...</a> 
</div>
</body>
</html>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 00:36:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: William Palfreman <wil...@palfreman.com>
Subject: OT: Tuxedo.org?

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Sorry to disrupt the Bill & Matt show, but am I the only one whose
getting really weird things off my hero, Eric S. Raymond's homepage,
www.tuxedo.org/~esr ? And since when has his IP address resolved to
dsl092-236-083.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net?

I assumed someone was playing a little joke on me at first, but I'm
getting the same from my shell account too.

- - --
W. Palfreman.
Tel: 0771 355 0354
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:26:06 -0800
From: Bill Huey (Hui) <bi...@gnuppy.monkey.org>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)

On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:52:43PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
> Bill is not a committer, has never been, and after this thread quite
> probably never will be.

Frank, I don't care, but you should since you've just lost a highly
technical person that was capable of doing KSE/kernel work. You're
attitude in this regard isn't very inclusive.

bill

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 20:33:24 -0500
From: Larry Sica <lom...@mac.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Tuxedo.org?

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On Friday, February 7, 2003, at 07:36 PM, William Palfreman wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Sorry to disrupt the Bill & Matt show, but am I the only one whose
> getting really weird things off my hero, Eric S. Raymond's homepage,
> www.tuxedo.org/~esr ? And since when has his IP address resolved to
> dsl092-236-083.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net?
>
> I assumed someone was playing a little joke on me at first, but I'm
> getting the same from my shell account too.
>

Not from here. It resolves to eff.org

- - --Larry

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 07:33:50 -0600
From: <eremu...@shaw.ca>
Subject: digital drug

<html>
<head>
<title>Vo<!ni>odooM<!sovn>achine.bz</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
</head>
 
Vo<!sovn>odoo Mac<!ywwt>hine 
 
<a href="http://www.voodoomachine.bz/" target="_blank">Clic<!c>k He<!Ilg>re</a> 
 
Experien<!c>ce feelings of inebriation, psy<!poo>chedelic visuals, extreme relaxation, floating sensati<!Ilg>ons, intense endorph<!r>in releases, all culminating in a relaxed yet alert euph<!ni>oric state. It's a completely electronic dru<!Ew>g-like experience and it's entirely safe, legal, and bene<!Ilg>ficial in so many fantastic ways<!Ew>! 
 
- -Enh<!Ilg>ance Sexu<!Ew>al Performance 
 
- -Non-Addictive Narcotic Subst<!r>itute 
 
- -Rela<!poo>xation and Relief from Stress 
<!sovn> 
- -Relieve Depres<!c>sion and Anxiety 
 <!Ilg>
- -Fight Insom<!Rinjt>nia 
 <!poo>

</body><!ni>
</html>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 02:43:45 +0000 (GMT)
From: William Palfreman <wil...@palfreman.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Tuxedo.org?

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote:

> ----------------------------- PGP Command Output -----------------------------
> gpg: Signature made Sat Feb 8 01:38:46 2003 GMT using DSA key ID 4F08BDDD
> gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found
> ------------------------------- End PGP Output -------------------------------
>
> Not from here. It resolves to eff.org
>
> --Larry

Yeah, but _why_? EFF is not Eric S Raymond. It also comes out as the
Debian homepage, ethics.org and someone called Wayreth.

- --
W. Palfreman.
Tel: 0771 355 0354

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 23:41:17 -0700
From: Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org>
Subject: OT: Tuxedo.org?

Raymond's moved his stuff to www.catb.org/ . The random redirect seems
to be an _exceedingly_ lame way to get people to update their links.

- -spc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:46:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: William Palfreman <wil...@palfreman.com>
Subject: Re: Tuxedo.org? (fwd)

Oh. So not got at then. Pity there is no explanation on either
tuxedo.org or catb.org about this.

Bill P.

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Brad Knowles <brad.k...@skynet.be>

At 8:58 AM +0100 2003/02/08, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:

> Yup, I also saw this behaviour 2 or 3 days ago, looking for the
> fetchmail home page. Hacked or an experiment from Eric Raymond?

My understanding is that the domain was owned by someone else who
was letting Eric use it, and Eric wanted to move to a different
hosting provider. The owner refused, so Eric had to go get his own
domain name, which is catb.org.

Meanwhile, the owner of tuxedo.org has apparently set up HTTP
redirects to send people to a variety of interesting other places,
presumably to get people to notice that the old URLs don't work
anymore.

- --
Brad Knowles, <brad.k...@skynet.be>

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.

GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+
!w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++)
tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 10:26:48 -0500
From: Bill Moran <wmo...@potentialtech.com>
Subject: Re: languages

[Redirected to chat, becuase ... well, you know]

Mike Meyer wrote:
> In <3E44980...@ameritech.net>, northern snowfall <dbai...@ameritech.net> typed:
>
>>>>what are the bbest three languages to learn?
>>>
>>C, java and as many flavors of ASM as possible =)
>
> You're being redundant. C is just a portable ASM. Java is just a slow
> portable ASM. Either one should be enough for even the most jaded
> masochist.

Anything with pointers in it is enough for this massochist. But I don't
disagree.

> How about Scheme, Eiffel and CAML? Scheme because the worlds best CS
> textbook - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs by
> Abelson, Sussman and Sussman - uses it. Eiffel because the worlds best
> OO programming book - Object Oriented Software Construction by
> Bertrand Meyer - uses it, and CAML because every programmer should be
> exposed to FP at least once.
>
> How about HTML, XML and WML?

I'm surprised that you consider these "languages". I lump then in the
catagory of "data formats". I've even seen some people call them
"protocols" as they resemble that more than a language.

> Seriously, this is just idle speculation until the OP bothers to tell
> us what he intends to use the knowledge for.

It's odd that we haven't heard from him since the first post. Someone
else speculated that he was trying to start a long-winded conversation,
and I suspect that may be the case. Not that I mind, but it doesn't
belong on questions@.

- --
Bill Moran
Potential Technologies
http://www.potentialtech.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 00:32:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Fabio Miranda Hamburger <fabm...@ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr>
Subject: we rule!

Hi, I cvsup to 4-stable from an old release, and I notice each time I log
on a "tip" or advice is shown on the screen.
That is pretty great, You learn alot each time you use freebsd.
I like the style of freebsd, It's polite, serious, following all standats,
Freebsd doesnt pretend to be better than any os.
for example, there is a file in slackware that says "powered by ms-dos",
that is pretty stupid and freebsd will never do that.
Many linux distro shows the kernel version on the telnet banner, freebsd
doenst do that cuz have security in mind.
freebsd donest come with "featurefull" shells and anonying colors or shell
prompts, it's up to the user to use them, freebsd donest assume by default
you want "all the features" turned on.

I am proud of FreeBSD, in the begging I got mad a lot of time, for
example, I couldnt past from 3-stable to 4, It has been long time and now
I understand the importance of "README" files and how to ask good
questions on mailing list...

I really like FreeBSD and for me It's the best os ever.

- ---
Fabio Andres Miranda
Ingenieria de sistemas informaticos
Universidad Latina - Costa Rica

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:44:36 -0600
From: Mike Meyer <mwm-dated-104...@mired.org>
Subject: Re: languages

In <3E4521B8...@potentialtech.com>, Bill Moran <wmo...@potentialtech.com> typed:
> [Redirected to chat, becuase ... well, you know]

Thank you.

> > How about HTML, XML and WML?
> I'm surprised that you consider these "languages". I lump then in the
> catagory of "data formats". I've even seen some people call them
> "protocols" as they resemble that more than a language.

It says they are languages right in the name - markup languages. I
don't consider them programming languages, though. It's possible to
define a programming language in XML - I know, I've programmed in
one. Given that, it's hard not to consider them as languages.

> > Seriously, this is just idle speculation until the OP bothers to tell
> > us what he intends to use the knowledge for.
> It's odd that we haven't heard from him since the first post. Someone
> else speculated that he was trying to start a long-winded conversation,
> and I suspect that may be the case. Not that I mind, but it doesn't
> belong on questions@.

That someone else was me.

<mike
- --
Mike Meyer <m...@mired.org> http://www.mired.org/consulting.html
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 12:52:49 -0600
From: Mike Meyer <mwm-dated-104...@mired.org>
Subject: Re: languages

I'm going to say one more thing on this subject, that's probably going
to upset a lot of people.

If the object is employability, my answers are SQL, VB and C#.

Based on figures I've seen elsewhere, and my watching various
technical help wanted locations, there are far more people wanted to
write SQL than anything else. The problem is that it's balkanized, so
that knowing the Postgres flavor may not work in getting you a job if
they want someone who knows the Oracle flavor.

VB just edges out perl, java and C++, which seem to be about even with
each other. VB is also balkanized a bit, as each application
apparently has it's own variant. You may wind up in the same situation
as with SQL.

C# actually trails perl, java and C++, but not by a lot. Since it's
the fastest growing of the four, that may change in the near future.

Obviously, Perl, Java and C++ are the choices if you don't like the
balkanization of SQL and VB, and the newness of C#.

<mike
- --
Mike Meyer <m...@mired.org> http://www.mired.org/consulting.html
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

------------------------------

End of freebsd-chat-digest V5 #696
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