freebsd-chat-digest V5 #695
owner-freebs...@freebsd.org
freebsd-chat-digest Friday, February 7 2003 Volume 05 : Number 695
In this issue:
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
refinance now
Re: My words towards billh's resignation
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
BSD's reliable networking (Re: High-latency/long-distance IP stack)
The lack of common sense wrt recent issues
Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: High-latency/long-distance IP stack (was Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT access access.master access.ports)
Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues
Sense, common (n.) (was Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues)
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Re: GGI (was: Project Status)
Re: GGI (was: Project Status)
Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 01:51:18 +0100
From: Brad Knowles <brad.k...@skynet.be>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
At 12:29 PM -0800 2003/02/06, Bill Huey (Hui) wrote:
> That's because you're a narrow minded dickhead that doesn't listen to
> anybody reasonable.
Buddy, you're digging yourself an ever-deeper grave. Have you
ever heard of the concept of quitting while you're behind?
For every single thing that comes out of your keyboard, my
opinion of John grows higher and higher -- largely in amazement of
his ability to keep any kind of sanity in the face of your global
thermonuclear war.
Give it up. At the very least, shut up and let your work speak for itself.
You do yourself the gravest possible harm by continuing to issue
planetary loads of such elephant dung.
At this point, from now on I think I'll avoid using Java or
anything related to Java, at least on FreeBSD. I don't ever want to
touch anything that you have had any involvement in creating.
And that's the last I'm going to say on this subject. *plonk*
[ NB: If anyone ever wants to me to see any e-mail they send, make
sure it doesn't have his name or e-mail address anywhere within the
message body or headers. ]
- --
Brad Knowles, <brad.k...@skynet.be>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+
!w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++)
tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:06:55 -0800
From: Bill Huey (Hui) <bi...@gnuppy.monkey.org>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 06:00:55PM -0500, Matthew N. Dodd wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Marc van Kempen wrote:
> > If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that
> > you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs
> > and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole java
> > porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we would
> > have certainly consulted you had I known."
> >
> > Now is that so hard?
>
> You know, one doesn't typically -demand- recognition.
Not in a function group, no. But this isn't the case.
> If you're working on something of your own volition "for fun" you can't
> seriously expect anything for your efforts. If you require some sort of
> compensation you're free make that a condition for others to use your
> work.
Sure, you can. I can expect the my work be respect, recognized and that
this earns a kind of status in a group. That's the point of the entire
thing otherwise they're basically stealing my work without recognizing
me.
> Rational people don't go stomping around demanding that the world be
> perfect for them.
When you've done something the key and critical to a project you
shouldn't be shitted by your peers or anybody else. If I had been
properly recognized as a technical lead in this group then it wouldn't
have been a problem. So, yes, I have to toot my horn so that the
absolute idiots in this group realize that I did this significant
and groundbreaking work.
That was never question until John and Nate conspired against any
kind of reasonable recognition of my role in the group. That's just
fucked up any way you cut it.
bill
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:14:37 -0800
From: Bill Huey (Hui) <bi...@gnuppy.monkey.org>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 06:20:13AM +0600, Max Khon wrote:
> They asked glewis and nate. Isn't that enough?
> Someone invested some amount of money and they have given it to Alexey.
> That's simple.
No way, they did so without understanding a preexisting and implicit
political structure in this group. I have always been apart of the inner
circle until Nate decided to go completely nuts and feel threatened by
my involvement with the project.
> Should they pay something to Greg? He's done tremendous amount of work
> to make 1.3.1 available on FreeBSD. Or Nate? I do not think that porting 1.1.8
> was easy. Or some other developers that contribute to FreeBSD Java Project?
> If I had spare money that I could spend for such purpose maybe I'd pay Bill.
> If you have money feel free to send them to Bill.
>
> Bill is known to be one of the most active developers of 1.3.1 HotSpot.
> That's the fact. I highly appreciate his work. But what all you guys are
> talking about? I'd understand you if it were yours money. But they are not.
It's not about the person getting the money as much as how it happpened.
It was done behind closed doors in the context of an open source project.
> It is a volunteer project and noone can expect that he will be paid
> for his job or request the contract if he was not chosen by some investor.
Nobody was, but that's not the point. The point is the dysfunctional
political body running this project into the ground.
bill
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:16:12 -0800
From: Bill Huey (Hui) <bi...@gnuppy.monkey.org>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:51:18AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote:
> For every single thing that comes out of your keyboard, my
> opinion of John grows higher and higher -- largely in amazement of
> his ability to keep any kind of sanity in the face of your global
> thermonuclear war.
Explain that to me.
> Give it up. At the very least, shut up and let your work speak for
> itself.
The work has spoken for itself, but your ability to comprehend has to be
completely comprimised
> You do yourself the gravest possible harm by continuing to issue
> planetary loads of such elephant dung.
Great, another screwball.
bill
------------------------------
Date: 06 Feb 2003 17:36:02 -0800
From: Joe Kelsey <j...@zircon.seattle.wa.us>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 17:06, Bill Huey wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 06:00:55PM -0500, Matthew N. Dodd wrote:
> > On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Marc van Kempen wrote:
> > > If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that
> > > you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs
> > > and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole java
> > > porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we would
> > > have certainly consulted you had I known."
> > >
> > > Now is that so hard?
> >
> > You know, one doesn't typically -demand- recognition.
>
> Not in a function group, no. But this isn't the case.
>
> > If you're working on something of your own volition "for fun" you can't
> > seriously expect anything for your efforts. If you require some sort of
> > compensation you're free make that a condition for others to use your
> > work.
>
> Sure, you can. I can expect the my work be respect, recognized and that
> this earns a kind of status in a group. That's the point of the entire
> thing otherwise they're basically stealing my work without recognizing
> me.
The problem, Bill, is that your work does speak for itself. It speaks
volumes about someone who fundamentally does not understand how to work
in a group or to work within a specific porting framework.
The Java project is better with Alexey working on it.
/Joe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 02:40:29 +0100
From: Stefan Arentz <stefan...@soze.com>
Subject: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 11:24:33AM +0800, leafy wrote:
> John, this looks nasty, I mean on your part. I think what Bill
demanded was
> resonable -- just an explaination or some respect for his hard work.
I totally agree. Bill has done an amazing amount of hacking and that is
the main reason why this 1.4.1 port exists today. It is the reason why
the Foundation could hire just one person; all the hard work had
already been done. Where is the recognition of that fact.
Could other people have done it? Sure, but Bill was the one who devoted
a *large* portion of his time in 2002 to get this done. That is why I
don't buy the "hey this is a volunteer project" argument that someone
else posted, in the end it *is* all about the volunteers who make it
possible. Don't use it as an excuse to treat people like shit.
Also, John Polstra's comment about 'there are easily a hundred people
who done this work' shows a complete lack of understanding how
difficult this project is. It involves a large amount of compiler,
interpreter and kernel discipline which, combined, cannot be found in a
lot of engineers. Bill knows this stuff. This is most definitely not
your typical port with some #ifdefs and a recompile. He does not even
acknowledge the fact that Bill did most of the hard work.
I too was amazed not to find the proper credits to Bill's work. Not in
a release note or even a list of contributors. Actually what Greg Lewis
wrote was:
'Again, I would like to thank Alexey Zelkin who has single handedly
been
working on the 1.4 port. I'd also like to thank the FreeBSD Foundation
who have provided the funding to allow Alexey to continue his work.'
This is insulting. Alexey is of course doing great work but not 'single
handedly'. He builds on Bill's work. Was that suddenly forgotten?
Where is the recognition for the real hacker behind this release? The
person who funded himself without any outside help financially. The
person who worked many many hours on this project to make FreeBSD a
better platform?
I'm pretty sure that Bill couldn't care less about the money or the
job. It is the complete lack of credits and respect that he deserves
for doing this work that pissed him off. Wouldn't you be?
Sometimes it is very difficult to see who does what in such a large
project as FreeBSD, but the people involved here should known better in
this case. This is all about proper recognition and keeping people
motivated.
It scares me that the FreeBSD foundation made this mistake and silently
tries to deny it. Forget about Bill's direct approach in his response.
He has every right to be pissed imo, and that doesn't invalidate all
energy that he put in this project.
The Foundation owes him an apology.
Greetings,
Stefan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 04:24:37 -0300
From: <poros...@shaw.ca>
Subject: refinance now
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:49:25 -0600
From: Chris Costello <ch...@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: My words towards billh's resignation
Mr. Huey has already resigned and said he no longer wishes to
contribute to the FreeBSD Project. Therefore, further posts to
this thread are pointless. All this thread is doing is getting
people inflamed and distracted from actual productive work.
Just let it die, folks!
- --
Chris Costello <ch...@FreeBSD.org>
FreeBSD Project http://www.FreeBSD.org/
TrustedBSD Project http://www.TrustedBSD.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 13:26:32 +1030
From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey <gr...@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
- --1y6imfT/xHuCvpN0
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On Wednesday, 5 February 2003 at 20:05:15 -0800, Bill Huey wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 06:58:10PM -0800, John Polstra wrote:
>> Oh, for cryin' out loud, Bill, this is ridiculous.
>
> Yes, it is. You should have own the fuck up and then changed the
> situation and clarified the political structures surrounding this
> incredibly poor decision.
On Thursday, 6 February 2003 at 1:01:30 -0800, Bill Huey wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:41:41AM +0000, Mark Murray wrote:
>> Wow. Bad luck, John. Its disgusting that you should be subjected to
>> this kind of abuse.
>>
>> Not all of us think as Bill does.
>
> That's a useless comment on your part. If you don't have anything to
> say that's constructive, then frankly shut the fuck up.
On Thursday, 6 February 2003 at 17:16:12 -0800, Bill Huey wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:51:18AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote:
>> You do yourself the gravest possible harm by continuing to issue
>> planetary loads of such elephant dung.
>
> Great, another screwball.
Bill, please stop this nonsense. This is completely inappropriate
behaviour for a committer. If you continue like this, core will have
to temporarily remove you from the lists until you calm down.
This has no relationship with whether your complaints are justified.
That's an issue which will take longer to research.
Greg
- --
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:07:09 -0800
From: Bill Huey (Hui) <bi...@gnuppy.monkey.org>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 01:26:32PM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> Bill, please stop this nonsense. This is completely inappropriate
> behaviour for a committer. If you continue like this, core will have
> to temporarily remove you from the lists until you calm down.
Agreed.
> This has no relationship with whether your complaints are justified.
> That's an issue which will take longer to research.
That's what I wanted to hear from somebody close to -core.
bill
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 23:16:40 -0500
From: Mikhail Teterin <mi+...@aldan.algebra.com>
Subject: BSD's reliable networking (Re: High-latency/long-distance IP stack)
A success story to share. My significant other's grandfather, who lives
one floor below us in the same appartment building, was (after I set
things up for him) using our DSL connection to play chess online, e-mail
a few friends, and read news.
The chess software was for Windows, so his OS had to be Windows 98 (on
an old Pentium @75MHz). The connection between him and us had to be
wireless (802.11b) -- you can't run cables through the stairwell.
The setup worked most of the time, but sometimes the connections were
stopping. Sometimes realligning the antenna would help, but we did not
believe, anything more could be done -- the walls and the ceiling are
concrete and brick after all.
A newer machine (Xeon @400MHz) became available and I decided to upgrade
him. Since I also found out, there are Unix programs, that work with his
chessclub.com, I installed FreeBSD. I was worried, the "barely-there"
wireless connection will give me more headache, because we will not be
using "the official" drivers for his Orinoco card, but, in fact, the
connection seems flawless.
You have to run ping to notice the occasional packet drops -- at about
the same rate as before -- but the upper network layers still work --
there are no annoying timeouts or connection drops (even NFS works
reliably), he did not have to climb up the chair to reajust the antenna
since...
If it is true, that Microsoft took the BSD network stack for their
shameful OS-wannabes, they did a really poor job...
His other two applications -- web-browser, and e-mail client -- are
also working fine. He was previously using Netscape-4.5 (the last 4.x
version, that had Russian translation). Konqueror and Kmail are his new
tools...
-mi
P.S. If you were wondering, my ISP -- SpeakEasy.net -- is not against
connection sharing (or running a server, for that matter)... Switch at:
http://www.speakeasy.net/refer/29957 and I'll get a credit :-)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:16:02 +0100
From: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai <asm...@wxs.nl>
Subject: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues
So nice to see all the slamming and slandering, but what I really don't
get is how people are losing every little bit of common sense at this
point.
1) We have people posting private email. Just wonderful. It might be
in defense of your point, but I think it doesn't quite warrant that.
2) We have people cc:'ing people who work at other companies (for
example someone at sun.com in the java slander thread). Well done
people! You just pulled credibility to lower than zero. Shows real
good grasp of how the corporate world will react to this kind of thing.
3) Egos rising skyhigh. I have no problem with people who are confident
in what they do, but the self-patting and ego-boosting stuff I read on
the lists have been ridiculous lately. Grow up, learn some humility
(books about Buddhism are a good start).
4) Also, the ability to generalise seems to be paramount nowadays.
5) The ability to take one topic and connect it to another and drawing
seeing connections. Me, oh my, it reminds me of the Bush joke that
there's a connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda, since both have a Q in
them.
Are we losing common sense and politeness here people?
- --
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(at)wxs.nl> / asmodai / Kita no Mono
Ninth Circle Enterprises | http://www.anti-dmca.org/
http://www.tendra.org/ | http://www.advogato.org/person/asmodai/
When Silence cries... Is it what I feel? Or is it what you really long
to be..?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:28:22 -0800
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
Subject: Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues
Jeroen Ruigrok <Jeroen> writes:
> So nice to see all the slamming and slandering, but what I really don't
> get is how people are losing every little bit of common sense at this
> point.
Well, common sense is not common. Speaking of commonality, I detect a
common theme in all the flaming of late.
It seems that if someone becomes unreasonable and angry, this makes
anything that happened before irrelevant and unassailable. Never mind
what actually happened, apparently if someone starts posting scathing
flames, they are automatically wrong and previous events are
discarded.
Real truth is not measured by the level of anger. It's measured by
what actually happened, which might be independent of the anger.
The only one I've seen posting in this regard is Greg Lehey.
Kudos to you, sir, for recognizing that:
"Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <gr...@FreeBSD.ORG> writes:
> This has no relationship with whether your complaints are justified.
> That's an issue which will take longer to research.
I've no clue into the politics of these situations. If this man
and this topic is on -core, there is hope yet.
- ------
Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
A monk said to Nasrudin, "I am so detached that I never
think of myself, only of others."
Nasrudin replied, "I am so objective that I can look at
myself as if I _were_ another person; so I can afford to
think of myself."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 02:36:32 -0600 (CST)
From: Chris Dillon <cdi...@wolves.k12.mo.us>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Bill Huey wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 06:20:13AM +0600, Max Khon wrote:
> > They asked glewis and nate. Isn't that enough? Someone invested
> > some amount of money and they have given it to Alexey. That's
> > simple.
>
> No way, they did so without understanding a preexisting and implicit
> political structure in this group. I have always been apart of the
> inner circle until Nate decided to go completely nuts and feel
> threatened by my involvement with the project.
Might as well throw my two cents in, since everybody else already
has... It seems to me that, if I understand what I've read in this
huge thread correctly, your beef stems from the FF not understanding
the "political structure" of the Java group. This non-understanding
results in the FF handing out money to the wrong person, in your eyes.
Now, here come the million-dollar questions: How was the FF supposed
to know of this political structure or even of your existence? Is it
common knowledge? Has it been plastered all over the front pages of
newspapers? Was it handed down from Above on stone tablets?
Apparently it was none of the above, so they ask the only two people
they have as contacts in the project who they should give the money
to. They don't contact you, because they don't even know you exist.
You can't expect them to "just know". They apparently had no reason
to distrust the input of their contacts, so things proceeded
accordingly. Now, not letting the most recent events cloud rational
thought, how is the FF initially overlooking you in any way their
fault?
- --
Chris Dillon - cdillon(at)wolves.k12.mo.us
FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet
- Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures
- IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, ARM, and S/390 under development
- http://www.freebsd.org
No trees were harmed in the composition of this message, although some
electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:37:47 +0100 (CET)
From: Harti Brandt <bra...@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
Subject: Re: High-latency/long-distance IP stack (was Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT access access.master access.ports)
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Nate Williams wrote:
NW>[ Moved to -chat ]
NW>
NW>> > Didn't Harti Brandt say that he was working on satelite communications?
NW>> > Perhaps he has plans to allow even larger RTTs to work well. :)
NW>> >
NW>> > "FreeBSD: The best connection to Mars... or AOL"
NW>>
NW>> You laugh, but various people, including Vint Cerf, are currently working
NW>> on an IP stack (or something that can be made to look like an IP stack)
NW>> that will work across those kinds of distances.
NW>
NW>It really isn't that hard to do that, IMNSHO. The hardest part is
NW>finding good 'initial' values for timeouts (if the first packet gets
NW>lost), since you don't want *too* long if it happens that the link is
NW>short. (Been there, done that. :)
NW>
NW>Once you get the initial 'broad' issues sorted out and understand that
NW>packet loss != congestion, the above stack isn't that hard to
NW>build/design.
In fact there are such stacks: SCPS and now the CCSDS protocol suite. Some
of the CCSDS protocols are designed to work over distances to mars (they
are quite different from TCP, however).
What is missing from current FreeBSD is clearly SACK. Even when doing TCP
to the moon SACK can help. In the last two years I have seen at least two
announcements of people that have offered a SACK implementation to
FreeBSD. Unfortunately non of the TCP experts in the FreeBSD camp took a
chance to get this into the tree.
A minor problem is that there should be some documentation on how to tune
FreeBSD TCP for long fat pipes. There are a number of non-abvious sysctls
you have to tune to get it working.
An yes, the current RTT stuff in FreeBSD is broken. I'm running my
measurement machines on HZ=10000. RTTs are counted in ticks. There is a
point where RTT computation breaks.
harti
- --
harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private
bra...@fokus.fraunhofer.de, ha...@freebsd.org
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 08:48:29 +0000
From: Mark Murray <ma...@grondar.org>
Subject: Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues
Dave Hayes writes:
> It seems that if someone becomes unreasonable and angry, this makes
> anything that happened before irrelevant and unassailable. Never mind
> what actually happened, apparently if someone starts posting scathing
> flames, they are automatically wrong and previous events are
> discarded.
Sort of. I believe that it is the Japanese who say that if
someone loses his temper, he automatically loses the argument.
If you can't keep control, you shouldn't be playing the game.
> Real truth is not measured by the level of anger. It's measured by
> what actually happened, which might be independent of the anger.
When anger is overwhelming, how can objective measurement work?
More objective outsiders have a (slightly) better chance, but the
person with the temper runs the very grave risk of turning many
people against him from the outset.
> The only one I've seen posting in this regard is Greg Lehey.
> Kudos to you, sir, for recognizing that:
>
> "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <gr...@FreeBSD.ORG> writes:
> > This has no relationship with whether your complaints are justified.
> > That's an issue which will take longer to research.
>
> I've no clue into the politics of these situations. If this man
> and this topic is on -core, there is hope yet.
Greg is on core, yes.
M
- --
Mark Murray
iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:06:17 +0100 (CET)
From: Magnus B{ckstr|m <b...@etek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Sense, common (n.) (was Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues)
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote:
> Subject: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues
>
> So nice to see all the slamming and slandering, but what I really don't
> get is how people are losing every little bit of common sense at this
> point.
Since when -choke- ...ahem, sorry.
Sense isn't all that common. What you see is a number of people taking
the opportunity to express views that suddenly don't seem out of place.
> 2) We have people cc:'ing people who work at other companies (for
> example someone at sun.com in the java slander thread). Well done
> people! You just pulled credibility to lower than zero. Shows real
> good grasp of how the corporate world will react to this kind of thing.
You hit your head on a pretty important nail there. I know at least
one organisation at which "apparent level-headedness" is a significant
part of the broader impression of "the FreeBSD project", and is part
reason FreeBSD is taken quite seriously in competition with alternatives.
We run 227 machines (desktop, mostly) with FreeBSD here, an improvement
of 226 in the past three years.
Internal arguments are an unavoidable irritation; it is appalling
when they start leaking. Hopefully the receiver is in possession of
enough sanity that those stray posts will be taken for exactly what
they are.
> 3) Egos rising skyhigh. I have no problem with people who are confident
> in what they do, but the self-patting and ego-boosting stuff I read on
> the lists have been ridiculous lately. Grow up, learn some humility
> (books about Buddhism are a good start).
mMmhmm, that last part sounds particularly not bad :-)
> 4) Also, the ability to generalise seems to be paramount nowadays.
>
> 5) The ability to take one topic and connect it to another and drawing
> seeing connections. Me, oh my, it reminds me of the Bush joke that
> there's a connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda, since both have a Q in
> them.
>
> Are we losing common sense and politeness here people?
The value of "Politeness" is surprisingly variable.
It makes me want to drive that generalisation bandwagon for a bit;
humor me.
Three kinds of people are involved here, call them (1), (x), and (2).
They differ along a particular dimension:
The (1) people think civility, manners, and good conduct are merits equal
in importance to technical skill, productivity, knowledge etc. They will
throw an offending (in their view) element out or quietly leave in
disgust.
The (x) people value technical aptitude and results achieved, and regard
social skill as perhaps nice but absolutely optional in a greater scheme.
They are visible in offering variously reasoned arguments that person
so-and-so should be reinstated/apologized to/put up with because (s)he's
really too valuable to let go.
The (2) people -- for whom a field of technical competence is a mental
theater on which to win prizes of recognition, fame, and glory -- regard
the exchange of views as a process that is most effective when allowed
unhindered access to a full vocabulary.
Choose your camp.
B
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 13:52:43 +0100
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <d...@ofug.org>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
Greg 'groggy' Lehey <gr...@FreeBSD.org> writes:
> Bill, please stop this nonsense. This is completely inappropriate
> behaviour for a committer.
Bill is not a committer, has never been, and after this thread quite
probably never will be.
DES
- --
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - d...@ofug.org
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:03:02 -0500
From: Oliver <ober...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
While Greg Lehey's email was generally directed towards Bill, I think he=20
intended for all of us to let it drop.
Let's not make him send each of us a personalized request to do so.
- -Oly
On Friday 07 February 2003 07:52 am, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey <gr...@FreeBSD.org> writes:
> > Bill, please stop this nonsense. This is completely inappropriate
> > behaviour for a committer.
>
> Bill is not a committer, has never been, and after this thread quite
> probably never will be.
>
> DES
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:38:06 -0500
From: Larry Sica <lom...@mac.com>
Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation)
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Note: i've trimmed the cross-posts.
On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 06:00 PM, Matthew N. Dodd wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Marc van Kempen wrote:
>> If you'd just say "Bill you're an **** for insulting me the way that
>> you do, but I have since researched the mailing list and commit logs
>> and acknowledge that you have made a big contribution to the whole
>> java
>> porting process and more specifically to the hotspot port, and we
>> would
>> have certainly consulted you had I known."
>>
>> Now is that so hard?
>
> You know, one doesn't typically -demand- recognition.
>
One typically does demand something. And unless you are truly humble,
doing something for recognition is not so far fetched.
> If you're working on something of your own volition "for fun" you can't
> seriously expect anything for your efforts. If you require some sort
> of
> compensation you're free make that a condition for others to use your
> work.
>
You can expect recognition for your work, that is not an unusual
expectation.
> Rational people don't go stomping around demanding that the world be
> perfect for them.
>
rational is such a loaded word. In this case, it really is almost a
classic customer service type of issue. You have someone contacting
you with a problem and they vent some initially. They get no response
so that just escalates it, they then react stronger and the response
they get goads them more....
When in a position of power, dealing with someone like this, you do not
goad them into reaction, you respond politely even if you want to pound
them with a sledgehammer. If you are equals then whatever, but when
you have one person in a position of power dealing with someone less
then it's up to the person with the power to respond properly and
control the situation not let it get out of control. That said,
expecting some recognition for something you worked on is not
unreasonable. Not getting it and asking for it is also not
unreasonable.
- - --Larry
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:52:03 -0500
From: Larry Sica <lom...@mac.com>
Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status)
On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 11:11 AM, Narvi wrote:
>
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
>
>> --- Larry Sica <lom...@mac.com> ha scritto: > -----
>> ...
>>>
>>> So the question becomes, does FreeBSD as a whole
>>> want to target this
>>> user audience? Is there the collective will to make
>>> that a reality?
>>> If the answer is no, I would think resources are
>>> best directed
>>> elsewhere perhaps?
>>>
>> Not really, but that doesn't mean FreeBSD can't offer
>> the tools to do that in a future. Right now I would
>> prefer we provide more tools for the embedded market..
>> ATM.. video broadcasting systems in a metro near you,
>> etc .. ;)
>>
>
> seeing as there are well-maintained packages of many "desktopy"
> things, obviously not everybody agrees.
>
Well some are better maintained than others imho.
- --Larry
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:54:59 -0500
From: Larry Sica <lom...@mac.com>
Subject: Re: GGI (was: Project Status)
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 10:33 AM, Narvi wrote:
>
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Larry Sica wrote:
>
>>
>> This is probably the most important aspect of any desktop. A coherent
>> system. A desktop needs consistency, ease of use and applications.
>>
>> Sometime too much choice is just as bad, or worse, than no choice at
>> all. I want to be able to setup a system that will look and feel the
>> same for 99% of cases. I want to be able to use quicken, or word, or
>> that cool photo app. I want my itunes, my instant messenger. That is
>> what people say. Most don't have the time or care to get deeply
>> involved in their computer, they want it to be just another electronic
>> device they use, like a vcr, or a tv.
>>
>> So the question becomes, does FreeBSD as a whole want to target this
>> user audience? Is there the collective will to make that a reality?
>> If the answer is no, I would think resources are best directed
>> elsewhere perhaps?
>>
>
> There is no point in dragging - or trying to drag - FreeBSD as a whole
> into this. Its not useful and furthermore not the way things get done.
> They way to get things done is:
>
> * find similarily minded people who want to see it happen
>
Perhaps, but there also needs to be some level of commitment at the
core level. And I don't just mean core@, i mean a willingness overall
to have things move in that direction on some level.
> * *DECIDE* (and later keep to the decision) as to what exactly
> your target audience is
>
Well that is a given, trying to please everyone all of the time is
impossible.
> * and then you just deal with the needed decisions that come from
> the first two parts to end up with a desktop package
>
This is not so simple. There are more factors than just what someone
likes to use. What I like or you like may be horrible for the target
audience. You have to worry about maintainability among other
things. Compatability, future compatability, etc etc...
> But really its a huge amount of work and includes many quite quirky
> decisions even when starting for a well-known base like GNOME/KDE
> (alphabetical ordering).
>
Yes, also when using a third party base you lose some control. Since
now you have to compensate for their packages and quirks and bugs and
localizations.
- - --Larry
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 09:10:29 -0600
From: rob spellberg <emai...@emailrob.com>
Subject: Re: The lack of common sense wrt recent issues
Mark Murray wrote:
> Sort of. I believe that it is the Japanese who say that if
> someone loses his temper, he automatically loses the argument.
>
> If you can't keep control, you shouldn't be playing the game.
this is one form.
another, which is particularly amusing to observe and
which comes to us from the 24-hour floggers of current events,
comes from politics and policy.
in this arena, it is considered impolitic to lose one's temper.
conclusive evidence that one party to a discussion
has determined for themselves that they have lost the debate
is when they shift to
"harrumph - i am so offended;
to think that i, a Good Person, would have been deceived into
engaging in debate with a neanderthal such as you"
mode and make an "ad hominem" attack.
in spite of this shift, they retain both politeness and quiet tone.
currently, two of the most popular and, therefore,
least effective of these attacks are variants of:
a] "you're a racist" and
b] "you just want to help your rich friends".
polite harrumphness: whatever the topic, you can bet the mortgage.
rob spellberg
------------------------------
End of freebsd-chat-digest V5 #695
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