freebsd-chat-digest V5 #713
owner-freebs...@freebsd.org
freebsd-chat-digest Wednesday, February 26 2003 Volume 05 : Number 713
In this issue:
RE: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Isn't today Troll Tuesday?
Isn't today Troll Tuesday?
i386 tinderbox failure
IA-64 tinderbox failure
Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Offtopic: Clean Screen HOWTO
Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Re: Offtopic: Clean Screen HOWTO
RE: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Re: jive
Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
RE: jive
Re: jive
Re: Offtopic: Clean Screen HOWTO
RE: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:25:34 -0000
From: "Paul Robinson" <pa...@iconoplex.co.uk>
Subject: RE: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
This is what happens when you try to write a mail whilst your boss is
talking to you and you're supervising an OS X fix at the same time. The post
was obviously talking about the software "jive", not the dialect.
> fact that they were all Afro-Carribean didn't come into.
That should read "didn't come into it".
> In other words, jive owes it's existence to a desire of white middle-class
> pricks to make fun of black working-class kids.
"wanting to make fun" reads better.
Sorry, just in case it didn't make sense. Incidentally, as to whether you
think jive is appropriate or not, I don't care about. I doubt I would post
stuff up in an attempt to make fun of a particular dialect. I also doubt I
would use software written with the express intent of causing racial abuse
to do it as well. Just my 0.02GBP.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 05:29:45 -0800
From: Terry Lambert <tlam...@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Paul Robinson wrote:
> In other words, jive owes it's existence to a desire of white middle-class
> pricks to make fun of black working-class kids.
s/pricks/kids/
s/kids/pricks/
...take your pick.
- -- Terry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:47:45 +0200
From: Willie Viljoen <wi...@unfoldings.net>
Subject: Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
On Tuesday 25 February 2003 15:15, someone, possibly Paul Robinson, typed:
> In other words, jive owes it's existence to a desire of white
> middle-class pricks to make fun of black working-class kids.
I've been quietly following the ongoing debate about jive. I have found some
of these posts rather amusing, including one a few days ago where the
author thought we would all find offensive if it hit close to home...
Living in South Africa, I am closer to this than most readers may think, and
I feel this is the appropriate time to jump in.
As most of you know by now, South Africa made the transition to a
Western-style democracy in 1994 after a stretched-out armed struggle
against the Apartheid regime was ended with the regime conseding to the
populous.
The party responsible for the most efforts made in the struggle was the
African National Congress. The ANC is today, the party in power in SA.
What bothers me is that, even though the ANC are now in power, ANC
politicians still blaim the white middle classes for absolutely everything.
This includes the crime rate, inequities in society, anything they want to.
If the white middle classes just can't be blaimed, colonists are the next
soft target.
In public depates, ANC politicians, when asked questions pertaining to
government policy, corruption, legislation they themselves do not fully
understand, etc, will almost always evade the journalist or opposition
politician's question with a pre-fabricated responce, that will always
contain: "... the problem... in the struggle... ".
It seems that the ANC member I am talking about here are suffering from what
I can only call political shell shock. Regardless of the fact that the
struggle is long over, the so called "white elite" is still the enimy.
It saddens me to think that while the civil rights struggle in the United
States ended a long time ago, citizens there still suffer from the same
shell shock.
I am not going to be popular for saying this, but had this been a majority
group being made fun of, they wouldn't mind, and neither would anybody
else, but simply because somebody may have inadvertantly poked some fun at
this group, just because they have been wronged greatly in the past, they
are immediately back on the defensive.
The original post that started this battle was really poking fun at some
legal licensing documents, why should it immediately become a political
issue?
Go ahead, make some fun of us white middle class pricks, as I see the
perfectly innocent white middle class of today, which had nothing to do
with the problems of many years ago, are now bing called. We don't mind, we
enjoy having fun poked at us, it reminds us that humor exists in the world.
Here in South Africa in fact, we get made fun of more than any other group
around, and it's only a very small group of individuals who have a problem
with this, the same small group who would rather SA go back to where it
were 15 years ago, a periah state.
Oh and yes, this does not bode well for my CV does it. I encourage everybody
to do Google searches on my name, and you can all read how many people I
have offended and what sorts of things I have said to them. That sort of
intimidation is just below the level, and I don't care if a prospective
employer reads this either. If somebody wants to hire me, better they know
that I won't take the politically acceptable stance, or follow orders like
a wind-up drone.
It is time that minority groups forgive and forget. How do you plan on
moving forward if after every single bit of fun being poked at you, or
something being said about you, you have to make a big issue out of it? I'd
much rather prefer making progress, and being made fun of at the same time,
than wasting my time complaining about being made fun of, and making no
progress.
I'm not saying the European community weren't oppressive in the past,
ofcourse we were, but that's no reason to continue the fray at every
opportunity today, is it? We have apologised profusely and sincerely for
what was done wrong in the past, infact, those who have apologized have
mostly done no wrong themselves, but were just apologizing for the sins of
their fathers.
The way I understand the world, the way to respond to an apology is to
accept it, forgive the person or party if they mean it, and move on. Nobody
meant anybody any harm with the jive post, the author of the post I am
writing in reply to goes as far as to call the filter "racial abuse". If
anything, the poster was abuse of some laywers, who don't seem to mind
much, as none of them have posted anything in this regard. Simply because a
steriotypical dialect was used, the message is not automatically abuse.
Here in South Africa, the dialect most steriotyped is the way Afrikaans
people (descendants of the Dutch) speak English (or are unable to). This is
made fun of by Africans and other European communities alike, and in return
they themselves are made fun of, nobody seems to mind though.
The last time I worried about being made fun of was in high school. If you
have not progressed beyond that level, then I feel truly sorry for you.
Will
- --
Willie Viljoen
Freelance IT Consultant
214 Paul Kruger Avenue, Universitas
Bloemfontein
9321
South Africa
+27 51 522 15 60
+27 51 522 44 36 (after hours)
+27 82 404 03 27 (mobile)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:02:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: William Palfreman <wil...@palfreman.com>
Subject: Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Paul Robinson wrote:
> Actually, the history of jive is an interesting one. If I remember
> correctly, the Legion of Doom created to make fun of another hacking group
> that they hated called Masters of Deception. LoD was composed mostly of
> white middle-class kids whose parents would buy them the latest and greatest
> hardware they asked for. MoD had to make do with scrabbling around for bits
> of kit in bins and were generally C64 freaks at the time. I'm sure that the
> fact that they were all Afro-Carribean didn't come into.
>
> In other words, jive owes it's existence to a desire of white middle-class
> pricks to make fun of black working-class kids.
Oh, you have got to be kidding. The amount of rubbish written on this
list. I have never seen an ethnically homogenous hacker-group. I don't
believe they exist. Hacking, and computers generally, transcends race.
Now, Intel hardware and games consoles are owned by all different kinds
of people. Then, C64s and, frankly, every other kind of hardware, also
didn't not have a racial basis to it. You would have to be completely
crazy to imagine that skin colour has _anything_, at all, to do with
computers. You are talking about a technology, merit driven industry,
not some government quango where you might be able to get away with this
kind of fact-free attention seeking.
- --
W. Palfreman. I'm looking for a job:
Tel: 0771 355 0354 http://www.palfreman.com/william/ for my CV.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:50:50 -0500
From: Rahul Siddharthan <rs...@online.fr>
Subject: Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Willie Viljoen wrote:
> The party responsible for the most efforts made in the struggle was the
> African National Congress. The ANC is today, the party in power in SA.
>
> What bothers me is that, even though the ANC are now in power, ANC
> politicians still blaim the white middle classes for absolutely everything.
> This includes the crime rate, inequities in society, anything they want to.
> If the white middle classes just can't be blaimed, colonists are the next
> soft target.
Wow, how terrible. It's been, what, 9 long years since the
transition, surely that should have been enough to heal the inequities
of the previous two centuries of colonial and apartheid rule, right?
Has it ever occurred to that the colonists may indeed *be* to blame
for social inequalities?
I agree that it's not helpful to harp on that; the country should look
towards the future. But politicians are politicians, whatever their
skin colour. My impression is that, on the whole, given its ghastly
20th-century history of oppression, South Africa has actually stepped
above that quite well -- with Nelson Mandela, despite spending much of
his life behind bars, emphasising reconciliation since the beginning
of the post-apartheid era.
The colonists should realize that they can't just sit back now and
enjoy the fruits of 200 years of entrenched inequality, either: they
need to take the lead in reforming the society (and I understand that
many do, just as many whites were active in the anti-Apartheid
struggle). Failure to do that will lead to a Zimbabwe-like situation
- -- which is a result of Britain and the local white community breaking
their promises and failing to implement land reforms for 20 years
after independence. I'm not trying to defend the despicable Mugabe.
But we all hope South Africa will fare much better.
- - Rahul
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:57:52 +0200
From: Willie Viljoen <wi...@unfoldings.net>
Subject: Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
On Tuesday 25 February 2003 21:50, someone, possibly Rahul Siddharthan,
typed:
> The colonists should realize that they can't just sit back now and
> enjoy the fruits of 200 years of entrenched inequality, either: they
> need to take the lead in reforming the society (and I understand that
> many do, just as many whites were active in the anti-Apartheid
> struggle). Failure to do that will lead to a Zimbabwe-like situation
> -- which is a result of Britain and the local white community breaking
> their promises and failing to implement land reforms for 20 years
> after independence. I'm not trying to defend the despicable Mugabe.
> But we all hope South Africa will fare much better.
Well, given the situation in Zim, I would say we are doing much better, but
the point I was making is that people should stop trying to politicize
everything, at every oportunity. It's just not productive.
Will
- --
Willie Viljoen
Freelance IT Consultant
214 Paul Kruger Avenue, Universitas
Bloemfontein
9321
South Africa
+27 51 522 15 60
+27 51 522 44 36 (after hours)
+27 82 404 03 27 (mobile)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:30:34
From: "elcott" <elc...@mailfreeway.com>
Subject: Isn't today Troll Tuesday?
________________
( Brett Glass!!! )
----------------
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|| ||
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:30:47
From: "elcott" <elc...@mailfreeway.com>
Subject: Isn't today Troll Tuesday?
________________
( Brett Glass!!! )
----------------
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o (oo)\_______
(__)\ )\/\
||----w |
|| ||
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Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MailFreeway.com
Join today its FREE!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:31:34
From: "elcott" <elc...@mailfreeway.com>
Subject: i386 tinderbox failure
________________
( Brett Glass!!! )
----------------
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(__)\ )\/\
||----w |
|| ||
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Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MailFreeway.com
Join today its FREE!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:31:13
From: "elcott" <elc...@mailfreeway.com>
Subject: IA-64 tinderbox failure
________________
( Brett Glass!!! )
----------------
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o (oo)\_______
(__)\ )\/\
||----w |
|| ||
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Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MailFreeway.com
Join today its FREE!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:00:41 -0800
From: "David O'Brien" <obr...@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 04:27:35PM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> You're missing the point. This message was send by Yahoo!, not an
> anonymous spammer.
Are you sure you didn't sign up for the "SPAM" message when you created
some Yahoo! account?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:09:52 -0800
From: Matthew Hunt <m...@astro.caltech.edu>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 01:00:41PM -0800, David O'Brien wrote:
> Are you sure you didn't sign up for the "SPAM" message when you created
> some Yahoo! account?
He may have created the account, after which time Yahoo! "decided" that
he wanted spam:
http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,51461,00.html
# In e-mail messages that began going out last week, Yahoo advised its
# users that their account preferences had been changed, by Yahoo, to
# indicate that they wanted to receive advertising solicitations through
# spam, snail mail and telephone.
- --
Matthew Hunt <m...@astro.caltech.edu> * Clearly there are more things in the
http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * heavens than anyone anticipated. -enp
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:24:20 -0600
From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." <k...@daleco.biz>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
<trimmed developers@...>
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Hunt" <m...@astro.caltech.edu>
> He may have created the account,
ROFL! Why, in heavens' name...
Kevin Kinsey
DaleCo, S.P.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:37:07 +0100
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <d...@ofug.org>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
Please stop cross-posting -developers and -chat.
DES
- --
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - d...@ofug.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:10:52 +1030
From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey <gr...@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
- --1X+6QtwRodzgDPAC
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On Tuesday, 25 February 2003 at 13:00:41 -0800, David O'Brien wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 04:27:35PM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>> You're missing the point. This message was send by Yahoo!, not an
>> anonymous spammer.
>
> Are you sure you didn't sign up for the "SPAM" message when you created
> some Yahoo! account?
Yes.
On Tuesday, 25 February 2003 at 13:09:52 -0800, Matthew Hunt wrote:
> He may have created the account, after which time Yahoo! "decided"
> that he wanted spam:
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,51461,00.html
>
> # In e-mail messages that began going out last week, Yahoo advised its
> # users that their account preferences had been changed, by Yahoo, to
> # indicate that they wanted to receive advertising solicitations through
> # spam, snail mail and telephone.
Yup, this looks like the one. I can't recall seeing the message,
though. Maybe my spamassassin ate it :-)
On Tuesday, 25 February 2003 at 15:24:20 -0600, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote:
> <trimmed developers@...>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matthew Hunt" <m...@astro.caltech.edu>
>
>> He may have created the account,
>
> ROFL! Why, in heavens' name...
I checked yesterday, as did Peter Wemm. I created the account in
question years ago only for travel information. The last cookie
issued was to a location in Boston MA. We don't know the date of the
last use, but the last time I was in Boston was in July 2001 for the
USENIX convention.
Of course I've closed the account.
Greg
- --
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
Please note: we block mail from major spammers, notably yahoo.com.
See http://www.lemis.com/yahoospam.html for further details.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 00:56:23 +0100
From: Philip Paeps <phi...@paeps.cx>
Subject: Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
On 2003-02-24 12:52:06 (-0800), Jeremy C. Reed <re...@reedmedia.net> wrote:
> Can an unsolicited sales pitch ever be appropriate?
No.
> Some people and businesses don't like door-to-door sales. (I don't mind the
> very infrequent religious, chiropractic or vote-seeker coming to my door.)
I do mind them, very much. I didn't mind the very infrequent religion
salesmen until a few years ago when a pair of them decided to show up at an
indecent hour of the morning (before noon) to Bring Me The Light. I told them
quite frankly that my house was Blessed with electric lighting and to push
off. Since then, I've not had problems with religious groups anymore.
What I also mind _very_ much are street-salesmen clamping on to me when I'm
walking through town. I particularly dislike the kind that can't take 'shove
off' for an answer, and try to sell me something for the better part of the
way to my car or office or home (whichever is applicable).
> All of us (I assume) are against unsolicited email sales letters.
Definitely.
> I dislike getting phone calls to my home trying to sell me new roofs, better
> security systems, windshields, vacation packages, etc.
So do I. Unless someone has been on my roof or inside my building, they
really shouldn't be forming opinions on the roofs or the security systems.
When I want to go on vacation, I'll make my own arrangements.
> I don't mind receiving a few sales pitches to my business telephone line if
> they are related to my work. (I only receive about one per week.)
Oh I _loathe_ those... They always tend to call when I'm in the middle of
something, and short of ripping the cord out, or tossing the phone out the
window, there's no way of getting rid of the twits at the other end. Luckily,
they don't occur too frequently. Perhaps salesmen keep 'black lists' of
people not to call because they treat them rudely? I hope they do :-)
> But I dislike receiving offers for windshield crack repairs to my business
> phone.
Don't think I ever got that offer, but I see your point, and agree completely!
> I usually don't care about the tens of sales letters I receive each week;
> sometimes I receive something interesting. I do care that I waste some time
> recycling. And I do mind that natural resources are probably being wasted.
I now have a sticker on my mailbox discouraging junk mail. The town hall
'issues' these stickers to citizens wanting them. The few pieces that come
through, I'm mailing back to the sender, void of stamp. The 'addressed' junk
mail I receive with the 'postage paid by recipient' envelopes inside, I mail
back in the provided envelope. I hope they recycle it for me, and get the
hint that I'm not interested. Perhaps I should forge the 'recipient is
deceased' stickers the post puts on letters when they can't be delivered to
people who've expired?
> I don't receive unsolicited faxes anymore. But a few years ago, I used to
> receive sales pitches by fax, but it was because my number was similar or
> used to be some other companies. (So this hasn't been an issue.)
I don't own a fax, so I'm okay there. Anyone still 'actively' using a fax
should evolve, imo...
> Anyways, when are unsolicited sales okay?
Never.
- Philip [difficult customer]
- --
Philip Paeps Please don't CC me, I am
phi...@paeps.cx subscribed to the list.
A diplomat is someone who can tell you to go to hell
in such a way that you look forward to the trip.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 19:46:10 -0800
From: Kris Kennaway <kr...@obsecurity.org>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
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On Tue, Feb 25, 2003 at 05:31:36PM +1100, JacobRhoden wrote:
> While were on the subject, it may be a commonly asked question, im not su=
re,=20
> but is there not some server side filtering of spam from freebsd, it=20
> currently makes up 10% of all my spam recieved?
Yes it is, and yes it does. FreeBSD is an ENORMOUS spam target, and
the hard work done by the postmasters manages to block all but a tiny
fraction of it.
Kris
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 23:50:40 -0600
From: Chip Morton <tech...@threespace.com>
Subject: Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Paul, I personally have to thank you for this bit of history. While I
certainly had the feeling that the authors of this program were engaging in
the worst kind of racial stereotyping, I couldn't manage to quite find any
proof until I had the references to the Legion of Doom and Masters of
Deception. They produced the following excerpts in my searches:
.....
Using the jive program is the electronic equivalent of appearing in
blackface - a crude, minstrel show in cyberspace: "Some nigga' name
Co'rupt, havin' been real active befo'e, duzn't gots' some so'kin' computa'
anymo'e and so ... sheeit, duh."
(at http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.12/hacker_pr.html)
Jive turns regular English into "the electronic equivalent of blackface" --
replete with uses of the word "nigger" and phrases like "slap mah 'fro."
(at http://www.kkc.net/eyenet/1995/net0817.htm)
......
So I think we can pretty much kill the pseudo-ignorant "Oh it wasn't poking
fun at anybody specifically" attitude.
- --Chip Morton
At 07:15 AM 2/25/2003, Paul Robinson wrote:
>Actually, the history of jive is an interesting one. If I remember
>correctly, the Legion of Doom created to make fun of another hacking group
>that they hated called Masters of Deception. LoD was composed mostly of
>white middle-class kids whose parents would buy them the latest and greatest
>hardware they asked for. MoD had to make do with scrabbling around for bits
>of kit in bins and were generally C64 freaks at the time. I'm sure that the
>fact that they were all Afro-Carribean didn't come into.
>
>In other words, jive owes it's existence to a desire of white middle-class
>pricks to make fun of black working-class kids.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 00:39:30 -0600
From: Chip Morton <tech...@threespace.com>
Subject: Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
At 11:02 AM 2/25/2003, William Palfreman wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Paul Robinson wrote:
> > In other words, jive owes it's existence to a desire of white middle-class
> > pricks to make fun of black working-class kids.
>
>Oh, you have got to be kidding. The amount of rubbish written on this
>list. I have never seen an ethnically homogenous hacker-group. I don't
>believe they exist. Hacking, and computers generally, transcends race.
>Now, Intel hardware and games consoles are owned by all different kinds
>of people. Then, C64s and, frankly, every other kind of hardware, also
>didn't not have a racial basis to it. You would have to be completely
>crazy to imagine that skin colour has _anything_, at all, to do with
>computers. You are talking about a technology, merit driven industry,
>not some government quango where you might be able to get away with this
>kind of fact-free attention seeking.
Yeah, merit driven. That's why Microsoft is the richest software company
the world has ever seen. They write the best software. And I can only
imagine what great rewards FreeBSD Core is reaping. I mean, when you take
into account all the crap hurled at them off these lists alone, you gotta
figure they're taking away some serious scratch, right?
But seriously, the Masters of Deception were mostly based in New York
City. And while not all of them were black, many of the notable members
were, which is what led to racial taunts from at least one high-level white
member of the Legion of Doom.
- --Chip Morton
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:01:43 +0200
From: Willie Viljoen <wi...@unfoldings.net>
Subject: Offtopic: Clean Screen HOWTO
This has been bugging me for a while now...
There are a whole bunch of products on the market that sell with sales
pitches like "perfectly crystal clear" and "streakless shine"... all of
these are being sold as "screen cleaners", yet most of these just leave
nasty oil deposits or streaks on your screen.
How do you get your CRT clean? Which cleaners would you use, and what types
of cloth work the best?
Recommendations?
Will
- --
Willie Viljoen
Freelance IT Consultant
214 Paul Kruger Avenue, Universitas
Bloemfontein
9321
South Africa
+27 51 522 15 60
+27 51 522 44 36 (after hours)
+27 82 404 03 27 (mobile)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 23:43:09 -0800
From: William Carrel <will...@carrel.org>
Subject: Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
On Tuesday, February 25, 2003, at 09:50 PM, Chip Morton wrote:
> So I think we can pretty much kill the pseudo-ignorant "Oh it wasn't
> poking fun at anybody specifically" attitude.
Think of all the poor Swedish who are stereotyped by The Muppets
Swedish Chef! And Google helps maintain this prejudice with their
ethnically insensitive Swedish Chef translation
(http://www.google.com/intl/xx-bork/). Why the whole world will think
that every Swede is a clumsy guy who beats his dough with a rolling pin
and says "Bork, bork, bork" a lot.
In other words, the encheferizer owes it's existence to a desire of
Norwegian middle-class pricks to make fun of Swedish working-class kids.
Pretty soon as a result of this oppressive stereotype, people will
start taking casual mailing lists far more seriously than they ought
to. These mailing list posters will link Scandinavian racial strife,
fascism, atomic weapons, and the worldwide proliferation of Chicken
McNuggets to the encheferizer. Oh the horrors caused by one simple
program.
I'd best go back to my strange world where the people who speak jive
are mainly white and the word pragmatism means something. Bork, bork,
bork!
- --
William Carrel
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:34:15 +0100
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <d...@ofug.org>
Subject: Re: Offtopic: Clean Screen HOWTO
Willie Viljoen <wi...@unfoldings.net> writes:
> How do you get your CRT clean? Which cleaners would you use, and what types
> of cloth work the best?
Regular window-cleaning solution and a lint-free cloth (such as you
would use to clean a window) work fine.
(Well duh, what did you expect?)
DES
- --
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - d...@ofug.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:53:44 -0000
From: "Paul Robinson" <pa...@iconoplex.co.uk>
Subject: RE: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
William Carrel wrote:
> Think of all the poor Swedish who are stereotyped by The Muppets
> Swedish Chef! And Google helps maintain this prejudice with their
> ethnically insensitive Swedish Chef translation
I just want to point something out here. People were stating that jive was
harmless and was never intended to be specifically racist. I happened to
know different, so pointed this fact out. Jive does owe it's existence to
nothing more than the desire to be racist - nothing else - and therefore
those people need to be corrected. If people find it funny, that's their
choice. I don't particularly care for it, or that sense of humour. I prefer
humour that involves cheese shops, dead parrots and silly walks. Hey,
perhaps the British cheese federation, the RSPCA and various disabled
charities will beat up on me one day because I mention those things on a
mailing list in a humourous way. I'm sure if I started sending out mails
to -chat about 'spazzos' though, it wouldn't do much good for me if a future
employer found it, and I'd expect people to find it offensive.
The Swedish chef owes it's existence to the desire of a bunch of Americans
who had never met anybody from Sweden to entertain other Americans who had
never met any Swedes. Whilst some Swedes may be offended, the key factor
that prevents it from being completely abhorrent, is that thus far Americans
have not oppressed Swedes for centuries, hung them from trees, set fire to
crosses outside their homes, killed and tortured them and then had a jolly
good laugh about it all. Unfortunately, in a country where local police
forces composed of KKK members are considered less of a threat to civil
liberty and personal safety to black people in that area, than some guy with
a load of oil on the other side of the world, I think it might be prudent to
not encourage racially offensive behaviour. You might call it PC-madness,
but I call it being polite.
> Pretty soon as a result of this oppressive stereotype, people will
> start taking casual mailing lists far more seriously than they ought
> to.
You know, there are times when I wish that people would take FreeBSD as a
whole more seriously than they do. There are times when I also agree it's
time to lighten up. However, when a piece of software is an attempt to
ingrain into a community a set of racial stereotypes, and people just think
it's a "bit of fun", perhaps it is useful for it to be pointed out to them
just what it is they are doing. That's all. Put it this way, at the moment
jive is in ports. If it was in the base system or part of BSD games, however
much I dislike penguin-orientated operating systems, I'd be jumping ship.
Anyway, I think if this thread goes on any further, we'll just end up with a
list of people who think taking the piss out of black people is OK, thereby
making people wary of their political background and causing damage to the
project. We will also end up with a list of people who love political
correctness, which could also damage the project.
Perhaps it might be a good idea to call a C&D on this topic and agree to
disagree before it really gets out of hand.
- --
Paul Robinson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:34:47 +0100
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <d...@ofug.org>
Subject: Re: jive
"Paul Robinson" <pa...@iconoplex.co.uk> writes:
> The Swedish chef owes it's existence to the desire of a bunch of Americans
> who had never met anybody from Sweden to entertain other Americans who had
> never met any Swedes.
Not really. AFAIK, it owes its existence to a genuine flesh-and-blood
Swedish chef who lost his nerve on live television and spent the rest
of the show speaking Swedish to an American audience. The Muppet Show
character is a spoof of that, bork bork bork.
DES
- --
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - d...@ofug.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:43:20 +0100
From: Miguel Mendez <fl...@energyhq.homeip.net>
Subject: Re: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
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On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:53:44 -0000
"Paul Robinson" <pa...@iconoplex.co.uk> wrote:
Howdy,
> not encourage racially offensive behaviour. You might call it
> PC-madness, but I call it being polite.
When a little humour (not badly intended) makes people over-react, I
call it 'too thin skin'. People, freebsd-chat != real life!
> it this way, at the moment jive is in ports. If it was in the base
> system or part of BSD games, however much I dislike penguin-orientated
> operating systems, I'd be jumping ship.
Fell free to install Mandrake. If having jive is what makes you decide
which OS to run, I feel sorry fo you.
> Anyway, I think if this thread goes on any further, we'll just end up
> with a list of people who think taking the piss out of black people is
Come one man, it's a *joke*, or are you trolling?
Cheers,
- --
Miguel Mendez - fl...@energyhq.homeip.net
GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt
EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk
Of course it runs NetBSD!
Tired of Spam? -> http://www.trustic.com
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 11:46:52 -0000
From: "Paul Robinson" <pa...@iconoplex.co.uk>
Subject: RE: jive
DES wrote:
> Not really. AFAIK, it owes its existence to a genuine flesh-and-blood
> Swedish chef who lost his nerve on live television and spent the rest
> of the show speaking Swedish to an American audience. The Muppet Show
> character is a spoof of that, bork bork bork.
I stand corrected, I'd never heard that story before. However, a bit of
googling around gets:
http://www.somasoma.de/1/somarest1.htm
Which seems to confirm the story, as much as a relatively anonymous
unsubstantiated webpage can confirm anything. :-)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:55:11 +0100
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <d...@ofug.org>
Subject: Re: jive
"Paul Robinson" <pa...@iconoplex.co.uk> writes:
> DES wrote:
> > Not really. AFAIK, it owes its existence to a genuine flesh-and-blood
> > Swedish chef who lost his nerve on live television and spent the rest
> > of the show speaking Swedish to an American audience.
> I stand corrected, I'd never heard that story before. However, a bit of
> googling around gets:
sic transit gloria mundi, I googled around too and found a) the story
straight from the guy claiming to be that original Swedish chef and b)
a firm denial from one of the writers for the Muppet Show.
DES
- --
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - d...@ofug.org
------------------------------
Date: 26 Feb 2003 19:56:33 +0800
From: Khairil Yusof <ka...@pd.jaring.my>
Subject: Re: Offtopic: Clean Screen HOWTO
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On Wed, 2003-02-26 at 15:01, Willie Viljoen wrote:
> How do you get your CRT clean? Which cleaners would you use, and what typ=
es=20
> of cloth work the best?
Just use plain old window washing sprays. However a household trick, is
to use old newspapers instead of cloth to wipe the screen clean. This
leaves your screen streak free (btw it works great on normal windows
also).
- --=20
"Optimized, Elegant, On Time; Pick any two"
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:06:57 -0000
From: "Paul Robinson" <pa...@iconoplex.co.uk>
Subject: RE: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
Miguel Mendez wrote:
> > not encourage racially offensive behaviour. You might call it
> > PC-madness, but I call it being polite.
>
> When a little humour (not badly intended) makes people over-react, I
> call it 'too thin skin'. People, freebsd-chat != real life!
Enouraging racially offensive behaviour is not humourous. If you think it
is, then that's your choice. Personally, I just think it's pathetic. I
accept that on-line is not real life, but then if people (employers) are
judging you based on your postings to -chat, there are two things you need
to consider:
- - perhaps they should be judging you on CVS commits, -hackers, -arch or
perhaps even meeting you in person rather than -chat, so maybe you want to
apply for another job anyway
- - regardless of the first point, you should consider whether you want to be
considered by your peers and future employers as somebody who finds "nigger
jokes" funny. Your choice.
> Fell free to install Mandrake. If having jive is what makes you decide
> which OS to run, I feel sorry fo you.
Having jive does not determine my OS choice. All operating system choices
made by 90% of the world's computers users are determined by whether it will
run the applications they wish to run, the way they wish to run them, or
because their boss tells them what they need to run. Personally, I have a
perception of quality of that operating system to think about, whether it
does things the way I want, and a tacit trust relationship with the creators
of that OS. If jive was considered appropriate for base rather than ports,
that trust relationship would be severly damaged, and as a result could
quite easily affect whether I choose to run FreeBSD. I do not think it would
do FreeBSD's currently appaling public image any good to give the impression
it's being run by a bunch of rednecks. You may differ in your opinion.
That's your choice.
> > Anyway, I think if this thread goes on any further, we'll just end up
> > with a list of people who think taking the piss out of black people is
>
> Come one man, it's a *joke*, or are you trolling?
It's a joke that causes reactions in some people that is quite un-nervingly
revealing about their personalities. Remember, this particular sub-thread is
based around the idea that your future employer/spouse/children may end up
reading these posts. Again, if you think that racially offensive humour is
funny, that's fine - you've put that down on record. I just happen to
strongly disagree.
I never troll. The statements I make may cause you to feel offended, in
which case I apologise in advance, but I would say it your face as easily as
I state it here. Of course, you can feel free to "fight back" if you want,
but eventually I'll just decide that nothing I say can change your mind and
ignore you. :-)
- --
Paul Robinson
------------------------------
End of freebsd-chat-digest V5 #713
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