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Feb 11, 2003, 6:07:24 PM2/11/03

freebsd-chat-digest Tuesday, February 11 2003 Volume 05 : Number 700

In this issue:
Re: matthew dillon
Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-)
Re: languages
Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon)
Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-)
Modelling complexity (was: Re: matthew dillon)
Re: matthew dillon
Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon)
Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon)
Real Estate Stocks: Safe Haven for Investors
Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-)
Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 03:13:20 +0100
From: Brad Knowles <brad.k...@skynet.be>
Subject: Re: matthew dillon

[ -hackers trimmed, because I'm sure they couldn't care less about this topic ]

At 5:58 PM -0800 2003/02/10, Terry Lambert quotes Dave Hayes:

> Dave Hayes wrote:
>> Terry Lambert <tlam...@mindspring.com> writes:
>> > Do you unsubscribe from mailing lists you merely monitor for
>> > interesting content, rather than subscribing to them, when some
>> > jerk fills up your POP3 maildrop because they have an axe to
>> > grind, and, as a result, mail which you consider "important",
>> > compared to the list traffic, bounces?
>>
>> I don't use POP3, precisely because of that reason. Do you?

What on Ghu's green earth does POP3 or IMAP make a difference?

Would you really rather have a push-based system, where I can
force you to take whatever I want to send you and at precisely the
time I want to send it to you?!?

Okay, let's say you use an interactive mail system. How do you
get your mail? It still has to queue up somewhere, unless you've got
a 24x7 direct feed into your brain, and you can guarantee that this
feed has more bandwidth than the entire sum total bandwidth of all
networks world-wide.

>> > People who advocate "receiver filtering" (either of the active
>> > variety, or of the "just ignore" variety) is the answer to all
>> > SPAM-like problems apparently do not understand the realities
>> > of many people using pull-based rather than push-based email
>> > transports.
>>
>> We do understand those realities, which is why we contend that
>> pull-based systems aren't the correct technology to use for receiving
>> randomly ubiquitous content such as humans are likely to generate.

And you would substitute what? Instant messaging?!?

> How is it that you suggest people defend against people with
> bigger pipes for shoving messages out than people have for
> messages coming in? In the limit, the same argument will apply
> to push-based systems, eventually, since you can not RED-queue
> persistent TCP connections, only incoming connection requests.

Hell, forget people with bigger pipes doing this sort of crap.
How about a whole shedload of ankle-biters, all deciding that they
want to ping your router at the same time? Put enough thousands of
them together, and they can take down any site on the 'net.

We learned this lesson the hard way at AOL. There simply is
absolutely no way you can protect yourself against a concerted attack
by a sufficiently motivated and empowered person or group. The
absolute best possible you can hope for is to reduce the probability
of a worst-case scenario, and to reduce the potential fallout when
you are hit with one.

- --
Brad Knowles, <brad.k...@skynet.be>

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.

GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+
!w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++)
tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:24:20 -0800
From: La Temperanza <tempe...@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-)

My two cents on Bugzilla: Having to register to report a minor bug
is annoying, and has discouraged me from doing so in the past.

I suppose lazy people like me are unlikely to submit high-quality
reports anyway, and so that's probably why it's required at most
projects. Your call if you ever make the big move. :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:01:01 -0600
From: Juli Mallett <jmal...@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: languages

* De: Rahul Siddharthan <rs...@online.fr> [ Data: 2003-02-09 ]
[ Subjecte: Re: languages ]
> Mark Murray wrote:
> > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes:
> > > All right, show me where in the XML 1.0 specification the
> > > interpretation of the following snippet of XML described:
>
> Presumably in some DTD somewhere? That's possible with XML (hence
> "extensible")
>
> > Where in a dictionary is the meaning of Jabberwocky explained?
> >
> > 'Twas brillig. and the slithy toves did gimble on the gyre....
> >
> > Language is a structure, not necessarily a meaning.
>
> Well, it's explained later in "Through the looking glass", and some
> of it even got into the dictionary later ("chortle", "galumph").
>
> The newspeak words in Burgess's "A clockwork orange" aren't in fact
> explained anywhere -- the reader understands them by context. But
> they still have a meaning. Ditto with some of Edward Lear's nonsense.

Actually, the tounge of the nadsats is explained well as an appendix to
some editions.
- --
Juli Mallett <jmal...@FreeBSD.org>
AIM: BSDFlata -- IRC: juli on EFnet
OpenDarwin, Mono, FreeBSD Developer
ircd-hybrid Developer, EFnet addict
FreeBSD on MIPS-Anything on FreeBSD

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:29:32 -0500
From: Rahul Siddharthan <rs...@online.fr>
Subject: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon)

Brad Knowles wrote:
> Okay, let's say you use an interactive mail system. How do you
> get your mail? It still has to queue up somewhere, unless you've got
> a 24x7 direct feed into your brain, and you can guarantee that this
> feed has more bandwidth than the entire sum total bandwidth of all
> networks world-wide.

http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html
OK, it's now 2003. Still, nice idea. If spam continues to grow at
present rates, some such scheme may become necessary by 2010 or
even earlier...

- - Rahul

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:23:52 -0400 (AST)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scr...@hub.org>
Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-)

On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote:

> Both GNOME and KDE have switched to it recently, finding their old bug
> system (debbugs, I think) didn't scale. In fact it seems to have very
> useful features, like handling of duplicates, dependency tracking of
> bugs, etc, which would (I presume) reduce the logjam quite a bit. The
> couple of times I submitted Mozilla bugs, I was impressed by the rapid
> response (in one case it was a duplicate, and flagged as that within
> minutes of my sending it).

Its not so much the bug tracking system that is the problem ... we (the
PostgreSQL project) tried, at one point in time, to implement our own, web
based one, and found that altho the problems were getting addressed and
fixed, none of the developers were going in and closing the tickets
afterwards ...

With the scale of FreeBSD, in comparison, I imagine that a very very large
percentage of bugs in GNaTs are those that have long been fixed, but the
tickets never closed ... or have become useless ...

For example, take a look at the oldest Critical ticket ... its from '98
*and* deals with v3.x ... chances are the user has long since moved on to
newer hardware (deals with the Cyrix CPU) or moved away from 3.x to the
newer versions ...

What needs to be done is various 'cut off points' need to somehow be
established ... for instance, anything dealing pre-4.x should be closed
...

for instance, there are 64 tickets that come up as 2.x Only ... and 145
that are 3.x only ... a drop in the bucket compared to the 2676 taht are
currently in there, but, drop's add up to fill that bucket ;(

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:53:54 -0800
From: Terry Lambert <tlam...@mindspring.com>
Subject: Modelling complexity (was: Re: matthew dillon)

Dave Hayes wrote:

[ ... Blah blah blah ... SPAM is good for you ... blah blah blah ...
there is no such thing as bad information .... blah blah blah ...
denial of service attacks don't exist ... blah blah blah ... if
everyone in the world were on the same mailing list, you'd have
the same problem and be unable to fix it, so there! ... blah blah
blah ... ]

> I might actually admit you were correct about a couple of your
> assertions involving game theory if I could find the references
> to which you speak.

Here is a reading list, in no particular order; I've kept it to
English, given that that's the language of this list:

Nonlinear Dynamics, Mathematical Biology and Social Science
(Santa Fe Institute Series, Lecture Notes, Vol 4)
Joshua M. Epstein
Perseus Publishing
ISBN: 0201419882

Game Theory: A Nontechnical Introduction
Morton D. Davis, Langdon Davis
Dover Publications
ISBN: 0486296725

The Economy As an Evolving Complex System
(Sante Fe Institute Studies in the Sciences of
Complexity, Vol 5)
Philip W. Anderson, David Pines
Westview Press
ISBN: 0201156857

A First Course on Zero Sum Repeated Games
Sylvain Sorin
Springer Verlag
ISBN: 3540430288

The Calculus of Conventional War: Dynamic Analysis
Without Lanchester Theory (Studies in Defense
Policy)
Joshua M. Epstein
The Brookings Institute
ISBN: 0815724519

The Origins of Order: Self-Organization and Selection in
Evolution
Stuart A. Kauffman
Oxford University Press
ISBN: 0195079515

The Selfish Gene
Richard Dawkins
Oxford University Press
ISBN: 0192860925

Linked: The New Science of Networks
Albert-L=E1szl=F3 Barab=E1si
Perseus Publishing
ISBN: 0738206679

Generalized Linear Models, Second Edition
Peter McCullagh, J. A. Nelder
CRC Press
ISBN: 0412317605

The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution
of Cooperation
Matt Ridley
Penguin USA
ISBN: 0140264450

Bionomics: Economy As Ecosystem
Michael Rothschild
Henry Holt
ASIN: 0805019790

Defense Positioning and Geometry: Rules for a World With
Low Force Levels
Raj Gupta
The Brookings Institute
ISBN: 0815733127

The Evolution of Cooperation
Robert Axelrod
Basic Books
ISBN: 0465021212

> >> > Please understand the technology involved before telling people
> >> > how they should use it.
> >>
> >> Please understand the people involved before attempting to force
> >> people to behave based on a particular choice of technology. =3D)
> >
> > The technology used dictates the permissable behaviours of
> > the people using it;
> =

> This is obviously false, since people constantly behave otherwise.
> Regardless, this should never be true, since technology is a servant,
> not a master.

Tell that to gravity. While you are at it, add the following on
the emergent properties of complex systems:

Growing Artificial Societies: Social Science from the Bottom Up
Joshua M. Epstein, 2050 Project, Robert L. Axtell
MIT Press
ISBN: 0262550253

The Emergence of Everything: How the World Became Complex
Harold J. Morowitz
Oxford University Press
ISBN: 019513513X

Emergence
Steven Johnson
Touchstone Books
ISBN: 0684868768

Smart Mobs: The Next Social Revolution
Howard Rheingold
Perseus Publishing
ISBN: 0738206083

- -- Terry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:40:44 +0100
From: Brad Knowles <brad.k...@skynet.be>
Subject: Re: matthew dillon

At 9:16 PM -0800 2003/02/10, Dave Hayes wrote:

>> And you would substitute what? Instant messaging?!?
>
> Right now, I'm not sure I would substitute anything. I simply notice
> most normal people pick their mode of communication, and care nothing
> for the technical consequences. Given this observation, a requirement
> for the ideal messaging system would be graceful handling of resource
> allocation.

Before you can force everyone to use your fair allocation system,
you first have to remove all other options available to them. I
don't see how anyone can effectively do this on the Internet.

> I agree. That is why I'm surprised when communities get blustered over
> someone sending too much traffic. It's like getting indignant when
> someone is over the speed limit. Why waste the energy?

If the person is driving recklessly and endangering other people,
that would be something to get angry about. If they're in the middle
of the Great Salt Flats, then who gives a flying mongolian cluster
sexual interforce? ;-)

- --
Brad Knowles, <brad.k...@skynet.be>

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:37:46 +0100
From: Brad Knowles <brad.k...@skynet.be>
Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon)

At 10:29 PM -0500 2003/02/10, Rahul Siddharthan wrote:

> http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html
> OK, it's now 2003. Still, nice idea. If spam continues to grow at
> present rates, some such scheme may become necessary by 2010 or
> even earlier...

Okay, so you're going to replace the e-mail system for the entire
Internet. You're going to go to local storage on the sender's
system, but then you still have to generate messages to be sent to
the recipients to tell them to come pick up their mail -- how do you
do that?

In and of itself, notices like this could be a DOS or DDOS,
because you have the same criteria for "Hey, you've got e-mail over
here that you need to come pick up" as you do for regular e-mail
today. Granted, the messages would be smaller, but their sheer
number could still be a DOS or DDOS.

There are lots and lots of really big questions that haven't been
answered about this kind of solution. This list (from the bottom of
this page) is just beginning to think about scratching the surface:

How should receivers be identified? How will the sender's
ISP find the receiver's ISP? Recipients will want to move
transparently from one host to another.

How should senders be identified? How will the receiver
find the sender's ISP? Recipients will want to provide
better handling to known senders; in the long run,
recipients will want to debit unknown senders.

How should messages be identified? How should messages
be downloaded? Messages could be retrieved through HTTP,
but an NFS/FSP-style UDP-based protocol would be much
more resistant to denial of service.

How should notifications, messages, and confirmations
be protected against espionage and sabotage? DH
authenticators seem more appropriate than public-key
signatures for private email; they're also much faster
and just as convenient.

How should the sender create a message?

How should the receiver download a list of notifications?

What format should messages have?

Indeed, I'd be interested to know if there is a single analog
anywhere in the world for this kind of system.

- --
Brad Knowles, <brad.k...@skynet.be>

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:40:57 -0500
From: Rahul Siddharthan <rs...@online.fr>
Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon)

Brad Knowles said on Feb 11, 2003 at 12:37:46:
> At 10:29 PM -0500 2003/02/10, Rahul Siddharthan wrote:
>
> > http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html
> > OK, it's now 2003. Still, nice idea. If spam continues to grow at
> > present rates, some such scheme may become necessary by 2010 or
> > even earlier...
>
> Okay, so you're going to replace the e-mail system for the entire
> Internet. You're going to go to local storage on the sender's
> system, but then you still have to generate messages to be sent to
> the recipients to tell them to come pick up their mail -- how do you
> do that?
>
> In and of itself, notices like this could be a DOS or DDOS,
> because you have the same criteria for "Hey, you've got e-mail over
> here that you need to come pick up" as you do for regular e-mail
> today. Granted, the messages would be smaller, but their sheer
> number could still be a DOS or DDOS.

But I can now block known spammers from even trying to connect,
because they can no longer relay their mail and thus can't hide their
tracks.

Equally important, the law can catch up with the spammers because they
can't hide their tracks.

You're perfectly correct that it's hard to remove all other options
for existing users, but I think the spammers will succeed in that. In
fact, I give them until 2007. I'm not saying the solution is DJB's
system (though I like it in principle), it's more likely to be some
form of better authentication for senders, reduced ability to forge
headers etc.

One way to transition to a new system would be for mailservers to
support both systems for a while, and indicate their support by their
HELO greeting. Perhaps some indication can also be put in the MX
records.

Once a new system is in place, and supported by the big guys (sendmail
and Microsoft would be enough), I suspect transition would be pretty
fast. Look how quickly the world got rid of open relays: back in 1996
nearly every mail server was an open relay, now the spammers have a
hard time finding one.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:49:26 -1800
From: "Alert Service" <Trader...@verizon.net>
Subject: Real Estate Stocks: Safe Haven for Investors

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
windows-1252"><title>SPECIAL ALERT</title><style></style></head><body onlo=
ad=3D"window.open('http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/intchart/frames/main.a=
sp?time=3D5&freq=3D1&compidx=3Daaaaa%3A0&comp=3DNO_SYMBOL_CHOSEN&ma=3D0&ma=
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width=3D716 bgColor=3D#000000 border=3D0><tr><td width=3D716><div align=3D=
center><img border=3D"0" src=3D"http://mysite.verizon.net/web242vg/SavvyIn=
vestorheader.jpg" width=3D"716" height=3D"99"></div><div align=3Dcenter><f=
ont color=3D#FFFFFF>        =
            &=
nbsp;    Feb. 2003 Edition  - Featuring CNN Mon=
ey and Reuters</div></td></tr></table><table cellSpac=
ing=3D0 cellPadding=3D2 width=3D716 border=3D0><tr><td vAlign=3Dtop align=3D=
left bgColor=3D#000000 width=3D716><table cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D3 =
width=3D712 bgColor=3D#ffffff border=3D0 style=3D"border-collapse: collaps=
e" bordercolor=3D#111111><tr><td width=3D701 align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop><di=
v align=3D"center"><table width=3D700 border=3D0 align=3Dcenter cellPaddin=
g=3D3 cellSpacing=3D0 bordercolor=3D#111111 style=3D"border-collapse: coll=
apse"><tr><td width=3D300 align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop><table cellSpacing=3D0=
cellPadding=3D3 width=3D300 border=3D0 style=3D"border-collapse: collapse=
" bordercolor=3D#111111><tr><TD VALIGN=3D"top" ALIGN=3D"left" HEIGHT=3D"18=
1" COLSPAN=3D"2">Each month Wall Street Monthly analysts study, re=
search, and examine hundreds of NASDAQ stocks, in an effort to pinpoint th=
e one with the most promise.Th=
is month's pick : World Associates Inc.<SPA=
N CLASS=3D"c2">Symbol: <a title=3D"Click for Real-Time Quotes" href=3D"htt=
p://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/intchart/frames/qsymbinfo.asp?sid=3D476193&t=
ime=3D7&freq=3D2&symb=3DWAIV">WAIV</a><SPAN=
CLASS=3D"c2">Current Price: $0.15</STRON=
G>Opinion: Str=
ong Buy</TD></tr><tr><TD ALIGN=3D"center" WIDTH=3D"153=
" HEIGHT=3D"45">Re=
cent News:</TD><TD=
VALIGN=3D"top" ALIGN=3D"left" WIDTH=3D"144" HEIGHT=3D"45">
<a title=3D"Click Here for News on WAIV" href=3D"http://bigcharts.marketwa=
tch.com/intchart/frames/symbolnews.asp?news=3Dallnews&orig=3Dcharting&symb=
=3DWAIV&sid=3D476193&time=3D5"><IMG BORDER=3D"0" SRC=3D"http://mysite.veri=
zon.net/web242vg/news.jpg" WIDTH=3D"97" HEIGHT=3D"73"></a></TD></tr><tr><T=
D VALIGN=3D"top" ALIGN=3D"left" HEIGHT=3D"442" COLSPAN=3D"2"><a href=3D"http://www.re=
uters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=3DtopNews&storyID=3D2083817"><img border=3D=
"0" src=3D"http://mysite.verizon.net/web242vg/reuters.GIF" width=3D"112" h=
eight=3D"23"></a> Mortgage rat=
es have dipped to levels not seen since 1965 and stock markets are in a th=
ree-year swoon. This has fueled home buying and building, making the secto=
r one of the rare bright spots in a slumping U.S. economy. <a href=3D"http=
://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=3DtopNews&storyID=3D2083817">Mor=
e.....</a><a href=3D"http://www.usa=
today.com/money/economy/construction/2003-01-03-construction-spending_x.ht=
m"><img border=3D"0" src=3D"http://mysite.verizon.net/web242vg/usatoday.jp=
g" width=3D"79" height=3D"44"></a>  The Housing Market is=
Red Hot ! Construction spending rose 0.3% in November, helped by record a=
ctivity in the red-hot housing market, the government reported. &nbsp=
;  <a href=3D"http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/construction/2003=
- -01-03-construction-spending_x.htm">More.....</a><a href=3D"http://lang.sbsun.com/homes/articles/1202/18/121802price_=
spike.asp"><img border=3D"0" src=3D"http://mysite.verizon.net/web242vg/the=
sun.gif" width=3D"120" height=3D"30"></a>  The median price of new and existin=
g homes sold in San Bernardino County during November skyrocketed 18.2 per=
cent from a year earlier.    <a href=3D"http://lang.sbsun.c=
om/homes/articles/1202/18/121802price_spike.asp">More.....</a><=
/P><a href=3D"http://money.cnn.com/2003/01/=
27/pf/yourhome/realestateoutlook/index.htm"><img border=3D"0" src=3D"http:=
//mysite.verizon.net/web242vg/cnn.jpg" width=3D"93" height=3D"26"></a> </S=
TRONG>The results are in. Last year was another record-setting year for=
real estate thanks to an economy with low interest rates.  &nbs=
p; <a href=3D"http://money.cnn.com/2003/01/27/pf/yourhome/realestateoutloo=
k/index.htm">More.....</a></TD></tr><tr valign=3D"top"><TD COLSPAN=
=3D"2" ALIGN=3D"left"> Highlights of Current and Future Success:</fo=
nt> - Rec=
ently acquired more than $10 M in real estate assets - Projected sales of $100,000,000 over four years<=
p class=3DMsoNormal> - More than $5M in earnings projected for eac=
h of 2003 and 2004 -  Real estat=
e may provide assets that allow for a listing on a major exchange<=
p class=3DMsoNormal> - Incorporating environmentally friendly and =
sustainable technologies<=
b>WAIV Aims High, Determined To Succ=
eed:World is extending th=
e real estate concept of "highest and best use" to include quali=
ty of life considerations. A "higher and better" use for real pr=
operty is to find the very most profitable use that also provides a benefi=
cial impact to the community and environment. World believes that this app=
roach will be a key to successful real property development in the future.=
</TD></tr></table></td><td vAlign=3Dtop align=3Dleft width=3D350><=
table cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D3 width=3D340 border=3D0 height=3D76><=
tr><TD ALIGN=3D"center" HEIGHT=3D"54" WIDTH=3D"201">A Closer Look:</TD><T=
D VALIGN=3D"top" ALIGN=3D"right" HEIGHT=3D"54" WIDTH=3D"124"><IMG BORDER=3D=
"0" SRC=3D"http://mysite.verizon.net/web242vg/newmag.jpg" WIDTH=3D"97" HEI=
GHT=3D"73"></TD></tr><tr><TD VALIGN=3D"top" ALIGN=3D"left" HEIGHT=3D"47" C=
OLSPAN=3D"2">World Associates, Inc. (World) was founded in 1990 and it =
has evolved into a fully integrated real estate enterprise. World is combi=
ning access to the capital markets, a competency with Internet technology,=
a portfolio of sustainable technologies, and the inherent strength of rea=
l estate as a means of creating shareholder value. Early in 2002 World acq=
uired more than $10 million in real estate assets. The company is negotiat=
ing other joint venture opportunities and alliances, and it will continue =
to expand it's growing portfolio of assets to develop.Objective=
:The company=FFFFFF92s immediate objective is to =
execute a plan of development for it's current assets that include more th=
an 300 acres of property valued at more than $10,000,000. When fully devel=
oped, the property will support more than 700 homes representing more than=
$100,000,000 in total sales over the next four years. The company will co=
ntinue to add to the assets it owns, focusing on land development, afforda=
ble housing, 55+ housing, and infill housing.<TABLE CELLSPACING=3D=
"0" CELLPADDING=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"320" BORDER=3D"0" HEIGHT=3D"51" CLASS=3D"c6=
"><TR><TD ALIGN=3D"left" WIDTH=3D"211" HEIGHT=3D"1">=
=
<a href=3D"http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/javachart/javachart.asp?sym=
b=3Dwaiv&time=3D5&freq=3D1">Points to Consider</fo=
nt></a><a href=3D"http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/javachart/javachart=
asp?symb=3Dwaiv&time=3D5&freq=3D1">:</a></=
font></TD><TD ALIGN=3D"left" WIDTH=3D"97" HEIGHT=3D"1"><IMG BO=
RDER=3D"0" SRC=3D"http://mysite.verizon.net/web242vg/newstats.jpg" WIDTH=3D=
"97" HEIGHT=3D"73"></TD></TR></TABLE><ul><li>This stock is based on r=
eal estate, the traditional hard asset</li> </=
ul><ul><li>Manufactured housing is the future-New ho=
mes cost up to 35% less than regular construction</li> </ul><ul=
><li>Affordable housing will always be in demand=
</li> </ul><ul><li>This is an early stage opportun=
ity with good upside potential</li> </ul><ul><li><b=
> Rain or Shine, =
manufactured housing construction continues without delay from weather con=
ditions.</li></ul>Conclusion:Real estate is the tra=
ditional hard asset and it is the foundation of World Associates, Inc. The=
strength and potential for growth embodied by the current real estate mar=
ket, dictates that this sector be in the spotlight for creating value.=
The Savvy Investor chooses its first pick of the New Year - Worl=
d Associates Inc. (WAIV). With their strategic positioning and acquisition=
s WAIV is sure to move to the forefront of the sector. In an unstable mark=
et - its a necessity to add strong stocks to your portfolio.=
This has been the February Edition of The Savvy Investor Newsletter.</=
p><img=
border=3D"0" src=3D"http://mysite.verizon.net/web242vg/sig.jpg" width=3D"=
134" height=3D"76">Editing Chairman</TD></tr></table></td><=
/tr></table></div></td></tr><tr><td vAlign=3Dtop align=3Dleft height=3D30 =
width=3D701><form method=3D"POST" enctype=3D"text/plain" action=3D"mailto:=
web2...@verizon.net?subject=3DRegister">Joi=
n our premiere update and get a sneak preview of upcoming reports. =
<input type=3D"submit" value=3D" CLICK HERE and OK" name=3D"submit "><=
/p></form></td></tr><tr><td height=3D23 width=3D701>Disclaimer:The Savvy Investor Newsletter provides=
information on selected companies that it believes has investment potenti=
al. The&nbs=
p; Savvy Investor Newsletter is not a registere=
d investment advisor or broker - dealer. This report is provided as an inf=
ormation service only, and the statements and opinions in this report shou=
ld not be construed as an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any securit=
y. Savvy In=
vestor Newsletter accepts no liability for any loss =
arising from an investors reliance on or use of this report. An investment=
in WAIV is considered to be highly speculative and should not be consider=
ed unless a person can afford a complete loss of investment. The Savvy Investor Newsl=
etter  has been retained to distribute this rep=
ort on WAIV and has been paid fifteen hundred dollars by a third party. Th=
is report involves forward looking statements, which involve risk, and unc=
ertainties that may cause actual results to differ materially from those s=
et forth in the forward - looking statements. For further details concerni=
ng these risks and uncertainties, see the SEC filings of WAIV including th=
e company's most recent <a href=3D"http://cbs.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes=
/secfilings.asp?siteid=3Dmktw&&symb=3DWAIV&sid=3D476193">annual and quarte=
rly reports</a>.</td></tr><tr><td vAlign=3Dtop align=3Dleft height=3D=
23 width=3D701>If you feel that this service is no longer o=
f benefit to you, and you do not want to be notified along with the invest=
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ble></body></html>

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 2003 10:28:45 -0800
From: sw...@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen)
Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-)

The Hermit Hacker <scr...@hub.org> writes:

> What needs to be done is various 'cut off points' need to somehow be
> established ... for instance, anything dealing pre-4.x should be closed
> ...

How about putting "policies" in the PR Guidelines something like this:

PRs older than 2 years shall be marked "suspended", where "older" is
measured from the last PR log activity which a committer deems to
indicate that the PR might still be valid for any OS version.

(This allows PRs to be "refreshed".)

PRs older than 4 years shall be marked "closed" if 10 minutes of
research by a committer does not convince him that any of the PR's
problems is, more likely than not, a problem in a recent release,
where "older" is measured from the creation date of the PR.

(This allows old PRs to be closed, even if recently "refreshed".)

The numbers might be too small.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:04:21 -0800
From: Terry Lambert <tlam...@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon)

Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 10:29 PM -0500 2003/02/10, Rahul Siddharthan wrote:
> > http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html
> > OK, it's now 2003. Still, nice idea. If spam continues to grow at
> > present rates, some such scheme may become necessary by 2010 or
> > even earlier...
>
> Okay, so you're going to replace the e-mail system for the entire
> Internet. You're going to go to local storage on the sender's
> system, but then you still have to generate messages to be sent to
> the recipients to tell them to come pick up their mail -- how do you
> do that?

It's even better than that.

Assume you have smaller, fixed-sized messages: then what you are
really talking about is that the sending machine is the storing
machine, giving you two avenues of attack for a given host.

If you assume that they aren't fixed sized, then you have to send
variable-length location data along with the message, rather than
using the peer identity in order to obtain the location of the
message identified.

At that point, the difference between sending a message to its
destination and sending a notification of the location of a
message to its destination, is moot: you can launch the same
denial of service attack that you could launch if you were
sending actual messages, rather than pointers to messages.

If we go back to the fixed length message case, then you can
launch exactly the same attack that the original message that
inspired this thread: a flood attack.

There are actually several advantages to the approach of sending
messages about messages, rather than the messages themselves:

1) The amplification effect is reduced. Thus it is very
hard to overflow someone's available space with big
messages, as opposed to small ones, where you are
overflowing their display client.

2) Messages are stored once, instead of messages being
stored multiple times. This would be useful, for
example, for an mail server where a large attachment is
sent to multiple recipients, such that the recipients
were not all listed on a single message instance (if
they were a single instance, the server could coelesce
them anyway, and store only a single copy).

3) You could replace the storage with a flood-fill mechanism,
using a cryptographic storage system, so that the data
could be replicated (e.g. "usenet"). This would make it
much harder to do any but traffic analysis.

4) You can delete messages after you have sent them.

5) You get notification of the message being retrieved, with
no way for the recipient to avoid it (I guess this is what
Dan *really* wants out of this... ;^)), but it's not
enough to serve court papers.

Is this the only way to get these advantages? Not really; off
the top of my head, it's obvious that:

o Technically, you could probably do #2 anyway, if the
mail server were to coelesce stored copies by message ID
and matching MD5 hash, so it's not that great a deal.

o The storage mechanism is kind of irrelevant, since it
could be used anyway, for maildrops, without introducing
new SMTP/transport semantics. For example, there is
already a mechanism in the form of a MIME-Type that is
an HTML reference which could implement this.

o Why not just implement a distributed database backing
store that could be used by aritrary front-end IMAP4
servers that could present views on it, and then use
IMAP4 as the access mechanism fo clients?

There are also numberous disadvantages; here are a few:

1) The problem with display, sorting, etc. of messages on
various criteria still exists. For this to work, you
would either have to pass along *minimally* all header
information you would normally have passed anyway, OR
you would need to contact every sending server everywhere,
each time you perform a display update (which is impossible).

2) One possible sorting criteria is "message content" (e.g.
I do not want to see messages whose bodies contain one of
"the seven words you cannot say on television"). This
would mean a need to access the complete message.

3) If the sending server store is offline, the message is
unavailable, for the duration.

4) It is possible to "rewrite history", by changing the
message on the storage server, after it has been seen.
Fixing this required including MD5 or other cryptographic
hashes, and even then you can only prove that the message
that's there now is not the message that was there, not
the contents of the message that *was* there.

5) The deletion "feature" assumes the recipient did not
store a local copy. I suppose you could use Palladium
for this? In that case, it destroys non-repudiation,
which would make email useless for legally binding
transactions.

6) The connections are outbound from the client to the
message stores. This removes a level of firewall
protection against incoming connections. While this
is technically not any different than Microsoft Outlook,
which starts sending messages to its rendering engine
before having received the entire message body, for other
mail clients that were written by qualified software
engineers wo understand encapsulation, it makes them
vulnerable to all of the "OutLook bugs" that users were
only risking if they ran OutLook or similar clients. It
effectively lowers the security bar to the least common
denominator.

7) Etc. (I could go on for a very large number of these).

> There are lots and lots of really big questions that haven't been
> answered about this kind of solution. This list (from the bottom of
> this page) is just beginning to think about scratching the surface:

[ ... list ... ]

These are all "doable" today, with existing infrastructure, no
changes necessary, if you accept that the messages being sent
are minimally the RFC822 headers, just without the normal body
contents.

> Indeed, I'd be interested to know if there is a single analog
> anywhere in the world for this kind of system.

1) Lotus Notes.

2) Usenet, with cryptographically protected messages
that can only be read by their intended recipient(s).

- -- Terry

------------------------------

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