freebsd-chat-digest V5 #712
owner-freebs...@freebsd.org
freebsd-chat-digest Tuesday, February 25 2003 Volume 05 : Number 712
In this issue:
Re: was this really necessary?
Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ]
Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
when are unsolicited sales okay?
Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ]
Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 01:28:44 -0800
From: Terry Lambert <tlam...@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: was this really necessary?
Stacy Olivas wrote:
> rob spellberg wrote:
> >i could go on for pages,
> > but this should be sufficient to allay your fears.
> >
> >
>
> Here's a good quote that will probably sum up a lot of
> how people feel on this list:
>
> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your
> right to say it"
>
> -Voltaire's biographer, describing his view of freedom of speech.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your
right to die in a fire of suspicious origin"
-- Anthony Chamberlin
- -- Terry
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 13:27:07 -0600
From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." <k...@daleco.biz>
Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ]
From: "Giorgos Keramidas" <kera...@ceid.upatras.gr>
To: "William Palfreman" <wil...@palfreman.com>
Cc: <ch...@FreeBSD.ORG>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive
Copyright ]
> I think we can tolerate a fair amount of humour on this list. No,
> pardon me. `Tolerate' is a very unfitting term. We *need* jokes.
> After some of the threads I've seen, humour makes my mornings just
a
> tiny bit brighter :-)
>
> I mean, I've seen much more 'offensive' stuff posted here. Not
that
> Stacy's posts were. Putting the length of the GPL post aside
(which
> was probably what my 28.8 modem will call offensive any day :P) I
had
> a great laugh.
>
> BTW, has anyone tried reading Slashdot! in jive? It's, uhm, in
lack
> of a better word `interesting'.
>
No, but I put the GPL through the 'moron' filter until I read the
part
that said:
Ebehyone is pehmittid to copy 'n distriboot behbatim copies
of dis license documin, but changigg it is not allowebuhd.
--- so then I deleted it ;)
Kevin Kinsey
DaleCo, S.P.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have no reputation to protect.....
++++++++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 09:02:50 -0800
From: Wes Peters <w...@softweyr.com>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
On Saturday 22 February 2003 19:18, Santos wrote:
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> > I've just received the following spam from Yahoo!, not for the first
> > time. I've complained in the past, and have had no response. So: I'm
> > blocking them. They're no longer the good guys in my eyes.
> >
> > If you are using Yahoo!, you will not be able to send mail to me. You
> > will be able to contact me if you put a yahoo.com address in the
> > Reply-To: header.
> >
> > Greg
>
> Why not a whitelist? I seriously doubt that the spamers will reply.
> And the people with good intentions will be able to contact you. It
> will cut spam in a efective way.
So will SpamAssassin, and without resorting to killing the messenger.
- --
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
w...@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:52:06 -0800 (PST)
From: "Jeremy C. Reed" <re...@reedmedia.net>
Subject: when are unsolicited sales okay?
Can an unsolicited sales pitch ever be appropriate?
Some people and businesses don't like door-to-door sales. (I don't mind
the very infrequent religious, chiropractic or vote-seeker coming to my
door.)
All of us (I assume) are against unsolicited email sales letters.
I dislike getting phone calls to my home trying to sell me new roofs,
better security systems, windshields, vacation packages, etc.
I don't mind receiving a few sales pitches to my business telephone line
if they are related to my work. (I only receive about one per week.) But I
dislike receiving offers for windshield crack repairs to my business
phone.
I usually don't care about the tens of sales letters I receive each week;
sometimes I receive something interesting. I do care that I waste some
time recycling. And I do mind that natural resources are probably being
wasted.
I don't receive unsolicited faxes anymore. But a few years ago, I used to
receive sales pitches by fax, but it was because my number was similar or
used to be some other companies. (So this hasn't been an issue.)
Anyways, when are unsolicited sales okay?
Jeremy C. Reed
http://bsd.reedmedia.net/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:29:56 -0800
From: Terry Lambert <tlam...@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
"Jeremy C. Reed" wrote:
> Anyways, when are unsolicited sales okay?
When you are not throwing crap at the wall hoping some will stick.
When you have a reasonable expectation that I'd be interested in
your offer (you personally thinking "it's a great offer!" is not
enough).
When we have a preexisting business arrangement on a related
basis.
When you are not *already* selling me the newspaper.
Never call me if you are selling buying club memberships. Ever.
Never call me if you are going to talk over me with your pitch,
and not let me interject my disinterest in your product until
you are completely done. It really wastes your time.
When you can guarantee I will actually save money because you
can run my historical records from my current company through
your billing algorithm, and the number you came up with is lower.
This last one requires you engage in illegal activities, but,
hey, the industrial espionage rap is your problem, not mine.
- -- Terry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 22:36:11 +0000
From: Mark Murray <ma...@grondar.org>
Subject: Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
"Jeremy C. Reed" writes:
> Anyways, when are unsolicited sales okay?
When the salesman has done his homework, and is sure (for a
non-controversial definition of "sure") that his product is appropriate
to you. AND when he is doing this at an appropriate time (ie: sell
me work stuff at work and home stuff at home, BUT ONLY IF NOT BUGGING
ME). Supper time is _OUT_, etc. This mostly makes home sales
off-limits.
(I _love_ door-to-door salesmen. Can you tell?)
M
- --
Mark Murray
iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:35:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Darren Henderson <dar...@nighttide.net>
Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ]
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Stacy Olivas wrote:
> Is it right to stereotype? No. However, taking what could be considered
> to be a stereotypical portrayal of a a group and turning it into something
> that is totally non-derogatory can be a good laugh by everyone.
While agreeing with the gist of this paragraph I do not agree that
stereotyping is "bad" - its a valuable tool. It's a survival tool, its a
thinking tool, its a memory tool. It is imporant that we be able to move
past sterotypes when necessary but they are required to live. You have to
have a reference point from which to base evaluations of new situtations.
Telling children to be wary of strangers sets up a stereotype, and I hope
most would agree that it is a valuable one.
One downside of stereotyping is the vast monstrosity of marketing it
allows. Demographics, product surveys, etc all lead to "stereotypes" that
allow them neatly drop us all into buckets of desires and tastes.
______________________________________________________________________
Darren Henderson dar...@nighttide.net
Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:44:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Darren Henderson <dar...@nighttide.net>
Subject: Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Jeremy C. Reed wrote:
> Can an unsolicited sales pitch ever be appropriate?
Never. Period.
That does not preclude businesses with whom you have a on going
relationship with sending you mails if you give the OK, but the
> Some people and businesses don't like door-to-door sales. (I don't mind
> the very infrequent religious, chiropractic or vote-seeker coming to my
> door.)
Most of us will tolerate quite a bit until it becomes intrusive. In most
communities there is a brake on door-to-door solicitations - you usually
are required to at least tell them you are going to be in the area doing
x, y or z. We don't get many door to door callers but it #$@#$ me off
every time one shows up - especially the religious types, (talk about
presumptuous and insulting).
> I usually don't care about the tens of sales letters I receive each week;
> sometimes I receive something interesting. I do care that I waste some
> time recycling. And I do mind that natural resources are probably being
> wasted.
SPAM is intrusive - for the most part junk mail is not - and you don't
have to pay to have it delivered. Key concepts that most spamers do not
recognize (actually I think they do but just don't care).
> I don't receive unsolicited faxes anymore. But a few years ago, I used to
We finally had to shut down my wife's fax line - dozens of pages of cruise
ship, toner ads, etc. You can't get the phone company interested and while
we at one time almost had the government on they either lost interest or
we were cast adrift in the bureaucracy.
> Anyways, when are unsolicited sales okay?
Never.
______________________________________________________________________
Darren Henderson dar...@nighttide.net
Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 19:55:40 -0500
From: Christopher Weimann <cwei...@k12hq.com>
Subject: Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
On Mon 02/24/2003-06:44:54PM -0500, Darren Henderson wrote:
>
> SPAM is intrusive - for the most part junk mail is not - and you don't
> have to pay to have it delivered.
>
Yuu may not have to pay for delivery but you do have to pay to have
it hauled away. I think a pretty large percentage of my trash can
is dedicated to junk mail. The worst offenders being catalogs and
supermarket flyers. Even if you don't get a separate bill for your
trash you still pay for it.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 03:05:08 +0000 (UTC)
From: na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Subject: Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
Jeremy C. Reed <re...@reedmedia.net> wrote:
> Can an unsolicited sales pitch ever be appropriate?
Maybe it's my limited imagination, but I can't think of any such
case.
> Some people and businesses don't like door-to-door sales. (I don't mind
> the very infrequent religious, chiropractic or vote-seeker coming to my
> door.)
I don't like them and I do mind. However, they are too infrequent
to get riled up about. The moment I realize they're trying to pitch
something, I shut the door. If I had a couple of them at my doorstep
every day, I would probably be very pissed.
> All of us (I assume) are against unsolicited email sales letters.
15121 since Sep 20, 1999. I'm not amused.
> I dislike getting phone calls to my home trying to sell me new roofs,
> better security systems, windshields, vacation packages, etc.
I think these are illegal in this part of the world. Very rare.
I'm even unhappy about them in the case of a pre-existing business
relationship like my car dealer trying to push old inventory on me,
or those customer satisfaction polls, etc.
> I don't mind receiving a few sales pitches to my business telephone line
> if they are related to my work.
I do mind. In particular if they are sleazy investment schemes
aimed at conning small business owners out of their money, which
are about the only ones to ever call, and if they can't take no for
an answer, which again seems to be the norm. Too infrequent to get
riled up about, though.
> I usually don't care about the tens of sales letters I receive each week;
> sometimes I receive something interesting.
I almost threw my new credit card into the trashcan because I mistook
the envelope for junk mail. Yes, I do mind. The volume is too low
to get really riled up about, though.
> I don't receive unsolicited faxes anymore.
Illegal and I don't have a fax machine.
> Anyways, when are unsolicited sales okay?
No idea. You tell me.
- --
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:27:35 +1030
From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey <gr...@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
- --AkbCVLjbJ9qUtAXD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
On Monday, 24 February 2003 at 9:02:50 -0800, Wes Peters wrote:
> On Saturday 22 February 2003 19:18, Santos wrote:
>> Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>>> I've just received the following spam from Yahoo!, not for the first
>>> time. I've complained in the past, and have had no response. So: I'm
>>> blocking them. They're no longer the good guys in my eyes.
>>>
>>> If you are using Yahoo!, you will not be able to send mail to me. You
>>> will be able to contact me if you put a yahoo.com address in the
>>> Reply-To: header.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>
>> Why not a whitelist? I seriously doubt that the spamers will reply.
>> And the people with good intentions will be able to contact you. It
>> will cut spam in a efective way.
>
> So will SpamAssassin, and without resorting to killing the
> messenger.
You're missing the point. This message was send by Yahoo!, not an
anonymous spammer.
Greg
- --
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
Please note: we block mail from major spammers, notably yahoo.com.
See http://www.lemis.com/yahoospam.html for further details.
- --AkbCVLjbJ9qUtAXD
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 22:58:12 -0700
From: Brett Glass <br...@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: when are unsolicited sales okay?
At 01:52 PM 2/24/2003, Jeremy C. Reed wrote:
>Anyways, when are unsolicited sales okay?
When Hades freezes over.
- --Brett Glass
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 01:18:07 -0500
From: Oliver Oberdorf <ober...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
trimmed to chat; though I sincerely hope the thread ends here
Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>You're missing the point. This message was send by Yahoo!, not an
>anonymous spammer.
>
>
Yes, and then you forwarded a complete copy to all of us. I suppose I
wasn't getting enough already on my own.
I understand your frustration with spam. I've seen some simple
suggestions on filtering the special offers and not the real people.
You may take them or not; I don't think this thread has anything more
useful to say.
- -Oly
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:31:36 +1100
From: JacobRhoden <jrh...@unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo!
On Tuesday 25 February 2003 16:57, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> You're missing the point. This message was send by Yahoo!, not an
> anonymous spammer.
I recieved the exact same spam emails that you did. My very very simple p=
erl=20
script spam filter managed to block both of them without blocking all yah=
oo=20
addresses. Why block domains when most spam can be blocked with=20
keywords/baysian filters?
While were on the subject, it may be a commonly asked question, im not su=
re,=20
but is there not some server side filtering of spam from freebsd, it=20
currently makes up 10% of all my spam recieved? (My conservative filters =
at=20
this end manage to catch most of the freebsd spam with no false positives=
). I=20
should think it would save some cpu cycles and bandwidth to filter?
- jacob
Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102
ITS Division Email: jrh...@unimelb.edu.au
Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:15:33 -0000
From: "Paul Robinson" <pa...@iconoplex.co.uk>
Subject: jive (was RE: was this really necessary?)
> "jive" was as much a dialect as any other popular vernacular is for its
> time. Its certainly not based of a centuries old stereotype. Its more
> recent then hippie/flower child speak, beatnik, etc. And its no different
> then the vernacular of present day MTV, hip-hop, or club crowd (insert
> any subculture here that you like [subculture being a component of the
> whole culture not a diminutive]).
Actually, the history of jive is an interesting one. If I remember
correctly, the Legion of Doom created to make fun of another hacking group
that they hated called Masters of Deception. LoD was composed mostly of
white middle-class kids whose parents would buy them the latest and greatest
hardware they asked for. MoD had to make do with scrabbling around for bits
of kit in bins and were generally C64 freaks at the time. I'm sure that the
fact that they were all Afro-Carribean didn't come into.
In other words, jive owes it's existence to a desire of white middle-class
pricks to make fun of black working-class kids.
------------------------------
End of freebsd-chat-digest V5 #712
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