Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} sanatana dharma has nothing to do with caste
Rajaram Krishnamurthy
SHUDRA VARNA CASTE
Can we speculate that caste and varnas are different? Can we speculate that while caste is by birth and can't be changed (eg a Rajput or a Jatt will always be a Rajput or a Jatt), but that varna is both by birth and by gunna or conduct? (this may be inferred by the story from Chandogya Upanishad about Satyakama and his teacher, the sage Gautama, who gave him a test to carry out before agreeing to teach, as Satyakama did not know of his lineage, and the test was about Satyakama proving that he will abide by the code of conduct expected) B G Guna karma vibhaga:
two claims based on the commentators' interpretation of the TS verses -
**Shudras must serve Dvijas**
It also says that the Shudras are dependent on others (Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas):
"Therefore the two, the horse and the Çudra, are dependent on others."
So this is why Smritis say that the duty of the Shudras is to serve the Dvijas.
**Shudras cannot perform Vedic rituals**
And finally it puts restrictions on Shudras performing Vedic rituals or yajnas:
"Therefore the Çudra is not fit for the sacrifice, for he was not created after any gods."
This is why Smritis say Shudras cannot undergo Upanayanam, etc.
However, we must understand the context of the verse here. To do so, please refer to the verse 7.1.1.6, taken from here -
ánv asr̥jyata vairājáṁ sā́ma śūdró manuṣyā́ṇām áśvaḥ paśūnā́m \1
tásmāt táu bʰūtasaṃkrāmíṇāv áśvaś ca śūdráś ca
tásmāc cʰūdró yajñé 'navakḷptas \ 2
ná hí devátā ánv ásr̥jyata
tásmāt pā́dāv úpa jīvataḥ
pattó hy ásr̥jyetām
prāṇā́ vái trivŕ̥t \3
ardʰamāsā́ḥ pañcadaśáḥ
prajā́patiḥ saptadaśás
tráya imé lokā́s \4
asā́v ādityá ekaviṁśás \5
etásmin vā́ eté śritā́ etásmin prátiṣṭʰitās \6
yá eváṃ védaitásminn evá śrayata etásmin práti tiṣṭʰati //7
Let us translate this line by line -
ánv asr̥jyata vairājáṁ sā́ma śūdró manuṣyā́ṇām áśvaḥ paśūnā́m \1
Then (ánv), was created (asr̥jyata) vairājáṁ sā́ma (vairājáṁ sā́ma), shudra (śūdró) of/among man kind (manuṣyā́ṇām), horse (áśvaḥ) of/among animal kind (paśūnā́m).
Here, I speculate that the word manuṣyā́ṇām is to mean human kind, as specific words like (पुम्साम्) are not used.
tásmāt táu bʰūtasaṃkrāmíṇāv áśvaś ca śūdráś ca
tásmāc cʰūdró yajñé 'navakḷptas \2
Therefore (tásmāt ), those two (táu) move/migrate among beings (bʰūtasaṃkrāmíṇāv - combined word of bʰūta, sam, krām, íṇāv), horse and shudra (áśvaś ca śūdráś ca), therefore (tásmāc), shudra (cʰūdró), in the context of yajna (yajñé), not ordained (navakḷptas - combined word of nav, aklptas).
ná hí devátā ánv ásr̥jyata
tásmāt pā́dāv úpa jīvataḥ
pattó hy ásr̥jyetām
prāṇā́ vái trivŕ̥t \3
No (ná), indeed (hí), diety (devátā) created after (ánv ásr̥jyata), therefore (tásmāt), feet (pā́dāv) towards/at/near/on/upon (úpa) living beings (jīvataḥ) placed (pattó), indeed (hy), may it not be created (ásr̥jyetām), the life force (prāṇā́), is truly (vái), the trivŕ̥t (refers to the trivŕ̥t stoma).
ardʰamāsā́ḥ pañcadaśáḥ
prajā́patiḥ saptadaśás
tráya imé lokā́s \4
Half months (ardʰamāsā́ḥ), fifteen (pañcadaśáḥ), Prajāpati (prajā́patiḥ), seventeen (saptadaśás), three (tráya) these (imé) worlds (lokā́s).
asā́v ādityá ekaviṁśás \5
That (asā́v) sun (ādityá), twenty-first (ekaviṁśás).
etásmin vā́ eté śritā́ etásmin prátiṣṭʰitās \6
In this (etásmin), indeed/surely (vā́), these (eté), resting/placed/dependant (śritā́), in this (etásmin), established (prátiṣṭʰitās).
yá eváṃ védaitásminn evá śrayata etásmin práti tiṣṭʰati //7
Who (yá) thus (eváṃ) has knowledge in this (védaitásminn - combined word of véda, etásmin), indeed/certainly (evá) rests/takes shelter/abides (śrayata), in this (etásmin), remains established (práti tiṣṭʰati).
(Continuing from verse 7.1.1.5) Then, was created vairājáṁ sā́ma, shudra of/among mankind, horse of/among animal kind. (in that order)
Therefore, those two move/migrate amongst beings; therefore, shudra not ordained in the context of yajna.(2)
No deity (was) indeed created after (this sequence), therefore, the feet (Prajapati's feet) (are) towards/at/near/on/upon living beings, (and) placed/descended, indeed (no more creation) may be not be created, (as) the trivŕ̥t is truly the life force. (2)
half months fifteen, Prajapati seventeen, these three worlds.
that sun, twenty-one.
in this (order) surely, these (are) placed, in this (the order) established.
who thus has knowledge on this, (and) certainly takes shelter/abides in this (order of creation), remains established.
Now, some commentaries translate 'tásmāt táu bʰūtasaṃkrāmíṇāv áśvaś ca śūdráś ca' as 'therefore these two — the horse and the Śūdra — are dependent on others', but 'bʰūtasaṃkrāmíṇāv' means moving through/migrating through the living beings (bʰūta), not depending on others. (2)
Furthermore, such commentaries treat this line 'tásmāt pā́dāv úpa jīvataḥ pattó hy ásr̥jyetām' to mean that 'therefore they live depending on the feet,[1] for they were created from the feet'. [1] Such translation considers the word 'pattó' as a ablative singular of pāda, trying to link to the previous mention of 'pā́dāv', but 'pattó' is past participle of the root (pat). Moreover the words 'úpa jīvataḥ' taken separately are not the same in meaning as 'upajīvataḥ' (livelihood/subsistence).
The line 'tásmāt táu bʰūtasaṃkrāmíṇāv áśvaś ca śūdráś ca tásmāc cʰūdró yajñé 'navakḷptas' says that Shudras are 'not ordained in the context of yajna', and not 'not ordained for yajna'. I think, the meaning completely changes here, if we are to take the literal meaning. Even if we were to take the meaning as 'not ordained for yajna', it still does not lead to the interpretation of 'not allowed for yajna'. It can mean that if the Shudras do the yajna, they will not gain anything from it.
Lastly, the interpretation '... for he was not created after any gods' goes directly against the literal meaning of the verse, which says 'no deities were indeed created after (the creation sequence mentioned from verse 7.1.1.4 to 7.1.1.6)', and it also says '(creation) may not be created (anymore), as the life force (required for creation) truly comes from the Trivŕ̥t'. It can be interpreted that the creation, as done by the Creator, stopped after the events mentioned in verse 7.1.1.6.
KANDA VII. THE EXPLANATION OF THE SOMA. SACRIFICE (continued) PRAPATHAKA I
The One Day Sacrifices vii. 1. 1. Production of offspring is light. Agni is the light of the gods; the Viraj is the light of the metres. The Viraj of speech ends in Agni; it is produced according to the Viraj. Therefore it is called light.
Two Stomas bear the morning pressing, like expiration and inspiration; two the midday pressing, like eye and ear; two the third pressing, like speech and support. This sacrifice is commensurate with man, and is perfect . Whatever desire a man has, he wins by it, for one wins all by that which is perfect. By means of the Agni stoma vi. 6. 11. 311 The Yajur Veda (Taittiriya Sanhita) Prajapati created off spring; by means of the Agni stoma he grasped them.
When he grasped them, the mule escaped. Following it he took its seed, and placed it in the ass. Therefore, the ass has double seed. They also say, 'He placed it in the mare.' Therefore, the mare has double seed.
They also say, 'In the plants he placed it.' Therefore plants, though not anointed, glisten.' They also say, 'He placed it in offspring.' Therefore, twins are born. Therefore the mule has no offspring, for his seed has been taken from him. Therefore he is not suitable for the sacrifice, but is suitable if there is a sacrifice when one gives (to the priests) all one's goods or a thousand, for he escaped.
He who knowing thus sacrifices with the Agnistoma begets unborn offspring and grasps those that are born. Therefore they say, 'It is the best of sacrifices .' Prajapati indeed is the best, for he sacrificed with it first.
Prajapati desired, 'May I have offspring.' He meted out the Trivrt from his mouth. After it the god Agni was created, the Gayatri metre, the Rathantara Saman, of men the Brahman, of cattle the goat; therefore are they the chief, for they were produced from the mouth. From the breast and arms he meted out the Pañcadaça Stoma.
After it the god Indra was created, the Tristubh metre, the Brhat Saman, of men the Rajanya, of cattle the sheep. Therefore, they are strong, for they were created from strength.
From the middle he meted out the Saptadaça Stoma. After it the All−gods as deities were created, the Jagati metre,
the Vairupa Saman, of men the Vaiçya, of cattle cows. Therefore are they to be eaten,[???] for they were created from the receptacle of food. Therefore are they more numerous than others, for they were created after the most numerous of the gods.
From his feet he meted out the Ekavinça Stoma. After it the Anustubh metre was created,
the Vairaja Saman, of men the Çudra, of cattle the horse. Therefore the two, the horse and the Çudra, are dependent on others. [1] Therefore the Çudra is not fit for the sacrifice, for he was not created after any gods. [whereas Vysya was after the god shudra was not after any GOD] Therefore they depend on their feet, for they were created from the feet. The Trivrt is the breaths; the Pañcadaça the half−months; the Saptadaça Prajapati; these worlds are three; the Ekavinça is the sun yonder. In this they rest, in this they find support. He who knows thus rests on this, finds, support in this.
KR THERE ARE TWO VIEWS: THE CREATION WAS IN ORDER OUT OF YAGNA, BASED ON VARIOUS YAGNAS AS STOMAS AND THE MANTRA ON METRS DESCRIBED; AND GODS ARE ALSO CREATED ALONG WITH THE HUMAN AND CATTLE WHILE NO GOD BEFORE WAS CREATED WHERE SHUDRA WAS BORN ALONG WITH THE HORSES WHOSE NATURE IS KEEP MOVING ALL THE TIME SO “NOT FIT DFOR TEACHING VEDAS” IS ONE MEANING; AS BOTH THE HORSE AND SHUDRA CAME OUT OF FOOT, THEY ARE DEPENDENT ON REST OF THE BODY OR LIVING BEINGS SO ONLY INDEPENDENT OF MIND ALONE CAN LEARN THE VEDAS. TAITRIYA SAMHITA AT LENGTH IN 7TH MANDAL 1 1 TALKS SO.
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I HOLD A 3RD REASON WHERE SHUDRA IS PROHIBITED TO READ VEDAS AS SEE EVERYWHERE IN VERSES ONLY VARNA IS SPOKEN BY PROFESSION AND JATI BY BIRTH AS WE SEE A LOT OF VEDA PANDITYAS AMONG THE SHUDRAS IN BHAKTHAS, AZHWARS AND NAYANMARS AND VEDIC STORIES. MANU CONFIRMS IT; B G ASSERTS MY VIEW AS DEPENDENT FOR ALL, UNLESS HAPPENNED BY “GUNA” AND “KARMA” UNIVERSALLY.
The primary verse stating that everyone is born a Shudra is found in the Skanda Purana, specifically within the Nagara Khanda (Book VI, Chapter 239, Verse 31). The Complete Sanskrit Verse
जन्मना जायते शूद्रः संस्कारात् द्विज उच्यते।
वेदपाठात् भवेत् विप्रः ब्रह्म जानाति ब्राह्मणः॥
Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṃskārād dvija ucyate |
Vedapāṭhāt bhavet vipraḥ brahma jānāti brāhmaṇaḥ ||
Line-by-Line Translation
Line 1: By birth (janmanā), everyone is born (jāyate) an unrefined person/Shudra (śūdraḥ). Through the refinement process/sacraments (saṃskārāt), one is called a twice-born (dvija ucyate).
Line 2: By studying and masterfully reading the Vedas (vedapāṭhāt), one becomes an illumined wise man (vipraḥ). One who directly realizes the Supreme Reality/Divine Source (brahma jānāti) is a true Brahmana (brāhmaṇaḥ).Concise Treatise on the Concept The core philosophy of this verse is that spiritual and intellectual status is achieved through inner transformation, not inherited by lineage.
1. The Raw Material of BirthAt the moment of birth, every human infant is entirely uncultivated, governed purely by physical needs, instinct, and raw animal tendencies. In the vocabulary of Vedic texts, this state of unrefined, elemental focus on physical survival corresponds to a Shudra mindset. No one is born with complex knowledge, ethical discipline, or spiritual awareness already active.
2. The Second Birth (Samskara)To transcend this basic state, a person must undergo Samskaras (purificatory rites, education, and ethical training). This marks the beginning of conscious learning. When a student receives the Upanayana (sacred thread) ceremony and begins formal education, it is structurally treated as a "second birth" (Dvija). It signifies transitioning from an instinctual life to an intentional, disciplined life.
3. Intellectual Mastery to Divine RealizationSimply going to school or studying text makes a person a scholar (Vipra). However, the ultimate evolutionary peak in this framework is the Brahmana. The verse dictates that a Brahmana is not defined by their father's family, but strictly by their actual, direct experience and knowledge of the cosmos and the absolute truth (Brahma).
Corroboration in Other TextsThis worldview matches other prominent texts. For instance, in the Manusmriti (2.172), it states: "As long as one does not study the Vedas, he is equal to a Shudra, irrespective of the family he was born in."
Similarly, in the Bhagavad Gita (4.13), Krishna asserts that the societal divisions (Varnas) are created purely based on an individual's innate qualities (Guna) and real-world actions (Karma), never by family bloodlines.
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KR IRS 4626
Dear Dr. Aravinda Rao KMy intent in producing the ब्रह्मसूत्रभाष्य was to show that even Adi Shankara supported the birth-based varna system.> He goes on to quote the Mahabharata and says that all the four varnas are entitled to know the meaning of the Vedas through itihasas and puranas, though the same knowledge is denied through the channel of Veda for a sudra.To me, it still seems unjust to restrict access to Veda to our own countrymen, despite them having the capability and desire, just because they belong to a different family. And we all know how much of a difference there is between acquiring knowledge through Puranas and through Upanishadas. It's not the same, even though the end result may be the same.
> It is like saying that Modi cannot be a pujari but he can be a Prime Minister.A more apt illustration would be that a sudra athlete cannot go to the nation's best stadium for practice (Veda), but can compete in the Olympics (moksa) by practicing through other channels.Regards--On Wed, Jun 3, 2026 at 3:35 PM लोकेश <lokeshh...@gmail.com> wrote:The aim of the adhikarana is to restrict access to sudra as clearly started in the beginning (शूद्रस्याप्यधिकारः स्यादित्येतामाशङ्कां निवर्तयितुमिदमधिकरणमारभ्यते). Then begins the पूर्वपक्ष arguing for inclusion of शूद्र in learning ब्रह्मविद्या. The पूर्वपक्ष provides various arguments for it such as - sudras have both the desire and competency (अर्थित्वसामर्थ्ययोः सम्भवात्), in the same vein it is mentioned that vidura etc too had access to specialized knowledge (विदुरप्रभृतयश्च शूद्रयोनिप्रभवा अपि विशिष्टविज्ञानसम्पन्नाः स्मर्यन्ते) and therefore sudras should have access to ब्रह्मविद्या (तस्मादधिक्रियते शूद्रो विद्यासु). Here ends the पूर्वपक्ष and the उत्तरपक्ष begins (इत्येवं प्राप्ते ब्रूमः)Dear Abhishek JiI'm pretty confident these translations are not misleading. Please read the bhaṣya in its entirety -
यथा मनुष्याधिकारनियममपोद्य देवादीनामपि विद्यास्वधिकार उक्तः, तथैव द्विजात्यधिकारनियमापवादेन शूद्रस्याप्यधिकारः स्यादित्येतामाशङ्कां निवर्तयितुमिदमधिकरणमारभ्यते । तत्र शूद्रस्याप्यधिकारः स्यादिति तावत्प्राप्तम्; अर्थित्वसामर्थ्ययोः सम्भवात् , ‘तस्माच्छूद्रो यज्ञेऽनवकॢप्तः’ (तै. सं. ७ । १ । १ । ६) इतिवत् ‘शूद्रो विद्यायामनवकॢप्त’ इति निषेधाश्रवणात् । यच्च कर्मस्वनधिकारकारणं शूद्रस्यानग्नित्वम् , न तद्विद्यास्वधिकारस्यापवादकं लिङ्गम् । न ह्याहवनीयादिरहितेन विद्या वेदितुं न शक्यते । भवति च श्रौतं लिङ्गं शूद्राधिकारस्योपोद्बलकम् । संवर्गविद्यायां हि जानश्रुतिं पौत्रायणं शुश्रूषुं शूद्रशब्देन परामृशति — ‘अह हारे त्वा शूद्र तवैव सह गोभिरस्तु’ (छा. उ. ४ । २ । ३) इति । विदुरप्रभृतयश्च शूद्रयोनिप्रभवा अपि विशिष्टविज्ञानसम्पन्नाः स्मर्यन्ते । तस्मादधिक्रियते शूद्रो विद्यास्वित्येवं प्राप्ते ब्रूमः —Also please read the bhaṣya to 38th sutra. Things will become very clear then -
इतश्च न शूद्रस्याधिकारः; यदस्य स्मृतेः श्रवणाध्ययनार्थप्रतिषेधो भवति । वेदश्रवणप्रतिषेधः, वेदाध्ययनप्रतिषेधः, तदर्थज्ञानानुष्ठानयोश्च प्रतिषेधः शूद्रस्य स्मर्यते । श्रवणप्रतिषेधस्तावत् — ‘अथ हास्य वेदमुपशृण्वतस्त्रपुजतुभ्यां श्रोत्रप्रतिपूरणम्’ इति; ‘पद्यु ह वा एतच्छ्मशानं यच्छूद्रस्तस्माच्छूद्रसमीपे नाध्येतव्यम्’ इति च । अत एवाध्ययनप्रतिषेधः । यस्य हि समीपेऽपि नाध्येतव्यं भवति, स कथमश्रुतमधीयीत । भवति च ‘वेदोच्चारणे जिह्वाच्छेदः, धारणे शरीरभेद’(गौ॰ध॰सू॰ २-३-४) इति । अत एव चार्थादर्थज्ञानानुष्ठानयोः प्रतिषेधो भवति — ‘न शूद्राय मतिं दद्यात्’(म॰स्मृ॰ ४-८०) इति, ‘द्विजातीनामध्ययनमिज्या दानम्’(गौ॰ध॰सू॰ २-१-१) इति च । येषां पुनः पूर्वकृतसंस्कारवशाद्विदुरधर्मव्याधप्रभृतीनां ज्ञानोत्पत्तिः, तेषां न शक्यते फलप्राप्तिः प्रतिषेद्धुम् , ज्ञानस्यैकान्तिकफलत्वात् । ‘श्रावयेच्चतुरो वर्णान्’(म॰भा॰ १२-३२७-४९) इति चेतिहासपुराणाधिगमे चातुर्वर्ण्यस्याधिकारस्मरणात् । वेदपूर्वकस्तु नास्त्यधिकारः शूद्राणामिति स्थितम् ॥ ३८ ॥Vidura got the knowledge not from the Veda but from other means.RegardsOn Wed, Jun 3, 2026 at 2:39 PM Abhishek Mehta <docabh...@gmail.com> wrote:I don't know where you are getting these translations from but these translations are false and misleading.न च शूद्रस्य वेदाध्ययनमस्ति । उपनयनपूर्वकत्वाद्वेदाध्ययनस्य, उपनयनस्य च वर्णत्रयविषयत्वात् ।This simply means that Shudras don't have Upanayana-initiated Vedadhyayana as Upanayanam is only reserved for the top three varnas. But shudras do have upanayanetaram vedaadhyayanam. Vidura's example is quoted in the Shankarabhashya prior to this statement in support of this.यत्तु अर्थित्वम्, न तदसति सामर्थ्येऽधिकारकारणं भवति।This states that in absence of competence, desire itself is not a cause for right to vedadhyayanam.सामर्थ्यमपि न लौकिकं केवलमधिकारकारणं भवति शास्त्रीयेऽर्थे शास्त्रीयस्य सामर्थ्यस्यापेक्षितत्वात् ।This states that only divinely-attributed competence (à la Vidura etc.) is the cause for the right to vedadhyayanam due to the expectation of scholarship in scriptural meaning, a scholarship that was granted to Vidura and others by divine means.These divine means can be anything and indeed different puranic and itihasic stories present different divine means of granting right to vedaadhyayanam to different people. So, even Adi Shankaracharya hasn't conceded to birth-based right over divinely-granted right. I can see why translations such as the above can make you feel that way. That is why it's always important to read the original Sanskrit with an unbiased mind before making any judgement.On Wed, Jun 3, 2026, 2:11 PM लोकेश <lokeshh...@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Dr. Aravinda Rao K--Thank you for the clarification. Your efforts are commendable in trying to prove that Hinduism doesn't support birth based varna system. At the same time I fear the efforts wouldn't bear concrete results because other highly learned acahryas and saints in Hinduism use the same sastras to prove otherwise.For example, Adi Shankaracharya was of the opinion that sudra-varna is determined by birth as mentioned in his bhasya in अपशूद्राधिकरण in ब्रह्मसूत्रभाष्य -जातिशूद्रस्यानधिकारात् इति Because a person who by birth is a Śūdra has no competency (for Vidyā).न च शूद्रस्य वेदाध्ययनमस्ति;A Śūdra is precluded from the study of the Vedas,उपनयनपूर्वकत्वाद्वेदाध्ययनस्य, उपनयनस्य च वर्णत्रयविषयत्वात्।यत्तु अर्थित्वम्, न तदसति सामर्थ्येऽधिकारकारणं भवति।The argument about (a Śūdra) having desire (Arthitva), does not constitute a reason conferring competency, in the absence of ability.सामर्थ्यमपि न लौकिकं केवलमधिकारकारणं भवति;Nor can mere worldly ability be a reason for conferring competency,शास्त्रीयेऽर्थे शास्त्रीयस्य सामर्थ्यस्यापेक्षितत्वात्,Because in matters relating to Śāstras, ability in conformity with Śāstras is necessary,शास्त्रीयस्य च सामर्थ्यस्याध्ययननिराकरणेन निराकृतत्वात्।And because (in the case of a Śūdra) ability in conformity with Śāstras has been ruled out, by the ruling out of the study of Vedas (in his case).When Adi Shankaracharya, an authoritative figure doesn't concede to the argument that one's capacity can override birth to determine varna, what to so of the others Acharyas. We can never convince them. This is what I fear in your efforts trying to prove that Hinduism doesn't support birth based varna, but quality based varna system.Kind regards
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