Re: [peacemakerscircle] Re: From Turkey

[Emmanuel Astillero]

A coup is held because the coup plotters do not hope to gain power by peaceful means, i.e., through elections (if any) or through negotiations. This was the situation in the Phils during the Marcos Years. Marcos had to be removed by force. This is also the case with Ngo Dinh Diem of VietNam who was a figurehead of the Americans. He was ousted by a coup by the generals.

There are many examples of coups. Some succeeded; some did not - as in the case of Turkey. Be that as it may, the Turkish coup was mounted because the coup plotters, said to be inspired by a Muslim cleric based in the U.S., felt frustrated with the current administration headed by Erdogan, the Turkish president. What the frustrations are is notyet clear from these exchanges in the Peacemaker site. Some interlocutors from Turkey (Suleyman) holds that it is not religious - the agenda. So, I said it must be political, like our coup in February 1986. And the Turkish coup, because it was inspired by a cleric, appears to be similar to the Iranian coup which removed the U.S-backed Shah Pahlevi. The Iranian coup was political but spearheaded by religious ayatollahs.

The question is: "why the coup?" Considering the values we hold dear, can we at Peacemakers identify with it? Or or not? That is the reason I am engaged in the discussion.

Re: the geo-politics of Russia vs the Americans. That's another level of discussion. The Russians and the Americans will act for their own respective  self-interests - and nothing else. In geo-politics, some countries, such as the Philippines, Viet Nam, Turkey, and others are used by the superpowers to achieve their own selfish agenda. Which, of course, they don't admit, at all.

Noel

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From: "Renato Zamora rena...@yahoo.com [peacemakerscircle]" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>
To: "peacemak...@yahoogroups.com" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>; Edgardo Owesada <ombhakt...@yahoo.com>; Monica Feria <monicaf...@yahoo.com>; Gerardo Jr Roldan <gbrol...@yahoo.com>; Agnes Rabago Agbayani <agnes_a...@yahoo.com>; Lee Sabarre <leesaba...@yahoo.com>; "tessie...@gmail.com" <tessie...@gmail.com>; Carlos Celdran <celdra...@hotmail.com>; Genevieve Balance- Kupang <genie...@yahoo.com>; Grace Odal <muti...@yahoo.com>; Grace Nono <grac...@gmail.com>; Marites Africa <shek...@gmail.com>; Rey Lopez <rl_...@yahoo.com>; Ed Velasco <ed_le...@yahoo.com>; Bebs Baliton <mahav...@yahoo.com>; "arabr...@gmail.com" <arabr...@gmail.com>; Albert Banico <banico...@yahoo.com>; Osbi Santillan <osbi.sa...@gmail.com>; Maribel Chung <maribel...@gmail.com>; Sen. Miriam Defensor-Santiago <mir...@miriam.com.ph>; Ian Alas <ian....@yahoo.com>; Cherry Condes <condes...@gmail.com>; Shiri Villanueva TSP <shirivi...@yahoo.com>; Sam Salter <hwgi...@yahoo.com>; Victoria Suarez <ma_v...@yahoo.com>; Sends Pangilinan <gemst...@gmail.com>; Laida Adduru <aaddur...@comcast.net>; Mary Grace Magana <mags_...@yahoo.com>; Intertaith Center for A. Culture of Nonviolence <ic...@pldtdsl.net>; Surf Reyes <surf...@gmail.com>; Melinda AHS-Nicolas <mmni...@sbcglobal.net>; Kathleen Kern <k...@cpt.org>; "no-r...@change.org" <no-r...@change.org>; "smart...@yahoo.com.ph" <smart...@yahoo.com.ph>; Ada Victoria Zenaida Simbulas OSCM <adavict...@yahoo.com>; Society of Cosmic Anthropologists <society-of-cosmi...@googlegroups.com>; "slp...@pldt.com.ph" <slp...@pldt.com.ph>; Rohaniza Sumndad <sumnd...@yahoo.com>; Gloria Caldito Voeglie PhD <gvoe...@yahoo.com>; Share Worldwide <sh...@ftcworldwide.ning.com>; Mary Anne L. Borromeo <maryanne...@gmail.com>; Keiko Niimi <213k...@gmail.com>; Norma USA-Rubio <ngr...@aol.com>; Alma D. Martin <acdm...@yahoo.com>; Emil Esparrago <eespa...@yahoo.com>; Ma. Theresa Linda ARB-Montanez <linda_m...@yahoo.com>; Alexander Jikiri <xander...@yahoo.com>; Chito Generoso <iccn...@yahoo.com>; Wilfredo H. APINADO <aries...@yahoo.com.ph>; Naty Go <b2b...@yahoo.com>; Wilma Hermogenes <maw...@yahoo.com>; Marco Philippe M. Araneta <marco....@gmail.com>; Paul John Pambuena <osle...@yahoo.com>; Maria Christine Muyco <muycoch...@gmail.com>; Iriz Astillero <irizan...@gmail.com>; Faith Floreta <faithf...@yahoo.com>; Amanda Aguilar <mandy_i...@yahoo.com>; Maria Kristina Merginio <mariakristi...@yahoo.com>; "whe...@yahoo.com" <whe...@yahoo.com>; Temy Aquino <squal...@yahoo.com>; Yvonne Cortez <yaco...@yahoo.com>; Nida Sta Maria <nida.s...@yahoo.com>; Josephine Gortega <sa...@computergraphics.com.ph>; Borromeo Celine <celine_g...@yahoo.com>; "member_r...@sss.gov.ph" <member_r...@sss.gov.ph>; Sen. Pia S. Cayetano <p...@senatorpiacayetano.com>; "hape...@yahoo.com" <hape...@yahoo.com>; Legal Research Service PAO <pao.legalres...@gmail.com>; Scarlet Garnica Simbulan <scarlet_...@yahoo.com>; Gil Gundayao <gil_gund...@yahoo.com>; "ale...@e.moneyandmarkets.com" <ale...@e.moneyandmarkets.com>; Chito/Maripi Makalintal <ken...@globelines.com.ph>; Helen Pacioles <shan...@mail.gdicustomer2.ws>; Fritz Fernandez <tsy...@yahoo.com.ph>; Abdul de Guia Abiad <aab...@imf.org>; Lloyd Luna <lloy...@yahoo.com>; Benjamin Jr. Ponce de Leon <bpdl...@yahoo.com>; Dr. Cesar D. Candari <drc...@cox.net>; "zero...@upfromzero.net" <zero...@upfromzero.net>; Maggie de La Riva <mdrm...@yahoo.com>; Vipa Jessie Severino <jesusemman...@yahoo.com>; Grace Kalaw Katigbak <gracemari...@yahoo.com.ph>; Giselle Evangelista <gisel...@yahoo.com>; Kulahub Noreply <nor...@kulahub.net>; Eufemio E. Nilles <eeni...@yahoo.com>; Rochelle Regodon <roch...@petaasiapacific.org>; Consolidate Debt <zz...@dealzz-3-02.net>; Edgardo Quesada <embhak...@yahoo.com>; Fredrick Kamille Oredina <kamiru...@yahoo.com>; Humanitysteamphilippines Ht <humanitystea...@yahoo.com>; Lilybeth Billy Liwanag <sowhatifi...@yahoo.com>; "macz...@gmail.com" <macz...@gmail.com>; Cecilia Oredina <mcalfe...@yahoo.com.ph>; "leesaba...@yahoo.com" <leesaba...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [peacemakerscircle] Re: From Turkey

 

With due respect to the ongoing Turkey Forum at Peacemakers, may I clear with you your response to the thick commentary of Sibel Edmond (with her Gladio coverage of the undercover history of such politics and intelligence motivations) where she points to the THANK YOU NOTE OF ERDOGAN TO PUTIN for sending a special mission unit with two jet supports and foiling the attempted assasination move towards him?  The vector here is that Erdolgan as a key ally of the US in the NATO alliance has blown the credibility of US as an ally in mid east politics.  What else can I conclude given the4 latest coverage by a whittler who won her defense cases with intelligence and court history?  a)  Let's raise this to pres Du30's diplomatic teams and Turkey experts coz it is a world balance matter, and b) the war predicated on it is quite sloppily explaibned.  c)  moreover the White House orderly media spokesmen are full of I DON'T KNOW and THE DISUSSIONS ARE STILL ONGOING.  The wiorld order policy matter does not look fitted to anyone's satisfaction.  If war is likely, we should talk loose and scour this smell off the Christmas war looming up, getz?  chiRz from Renz

On Sunday, July 31, 2016 8:54 AM, "Emmanuel Astillero noelas...@yahoo.com [peacemakerscircle]" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Paul & Suleyman,

The little that I know of about Turkey is that the first leader, Ataturk, made reforms and changes towards the secularization of the Turkish society. The succeeding leaders, Erdogan being the current leader, seems to be continuing this secularization. I don't know if this coup, seemingly inspired by a cleric in the U.S., is against the secularization being done by the government, or perhaps, the government programs is accompanied by dictatorial policies that have alienated the followers of the cleric. Or the followers of the cleric wants to have political power to push their agenda. Hence, the coup. May be they cannot win an elections?

I suppose you're right: the Turkish situation is complex.

Noel

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From: "Paulin paul...@yahoo.com [peacemakerscircle]" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>
To: "peacemak...@yahoogroups.com" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [peacemakerscircle] Re: From Turkey

 

Noel, 

Perhaps the situation is more complex than that. 

There are schools sponsored by Gullen Izmeid movement in the Philippines. 

It will be good if you can also hear from them. 

The best that could be expected is to assure the democracy that the Turkish people, especially the youth who descended in the street, stood for.

Paul B 

On Saturday, July 30, 2016 3:26 PM, "Süleyman Ragıp Yazıcılar suleym...@gmail.com [peacemakerscircle]" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Noel,


I think you got it right and this is why most of Turkish people believe that this ''Gulen'' group structure has secret agenda in future of Turkey and put distance to them. Also, Iran example is also similiar, yes. All political parties suggested them to establish a political party before but they always refused that they have political goals and tried to distribute their people to all parties and kept them secret. So this is why state is responding to this coup attempt as a fatal threat to Turkish Republic. Even most conservative groups in Turkey never had hidden agenda and always declared their goals so every group in Turkey know each other very well at the moment, except this group.

Regards,

2016-07-25 1:56 GMT+03:00 Emmanuel Astillero noelas...@yahoo.com [peacemakerscircle] <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>:

 

Thank you for your kind reply. If this is not a religious conflict, then it is certainly political - meaning that certain groups in Turkey wants to seize control of the government so they will be the ones to govern. But if it is a political group, they usually do this struggle in the "open", they don't hide their political agenda because they want to get a large following among the Turkish people. If this is political, but headed by a Muslim cleric, Gulen, who is based in the U.S., would you say you have a situation in Turkey similar to the situation of Iran during the rule of the Shah Pahlevi? His opponents that time were clerics headed by the Ayatollah Khoumeini. But the uprising against the Shah was an open revolt, not a coup from secret groups.

Noel

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From: "Süleyman Ragıp Yazıcılar suleym...@gmail.com [peacemakerscircle]" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>
To: peacemak...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [peacemakerscircle] Re: From Turkey

 

Mustafa wrote this:

Noel,

As I've mentioned before it is not related religion. Also, let me tell you that Turkey's religious approach is certainly against IS's views. Theology of Islam communities in Turkey has more than 1000 years basis and it's mostly based on sufism which IS sees as a threat to their view. That's why they are destroying tombs and cemetaries in Iraq and Syria and considering there are thousands of tombs in Turkey, you can realize that approach is totally different. Also according to numbers given by International organizations, most of foreign fighters of IS is coming from African and Asian countries.

So why we see them as a worst threat then IS and PKK or any terror organization? Reason being is they don't show their identity, they don't mention their goals and they are trying to get control by leaking into state institutions. If you see a terror group of people with weapons, it is easy to fight them. But when you have this kind of group which is dedicated to get control in every state institution, it's really difficult to fight against it. There is a justice system in Turkey based on laws, regulations and human rights, so this new concept of terror used and manipulated all the system. When they attempted this coup using their ''placed'' soldiers in Turkish Army, now there is evidence that they are a terror organization with using weapons and bombs. So from now, it will be more easier to fight against them. They have financial support from their members in high amounts, they have private schools which they use as a generator to increase their dedicated followers.

As a result, this is not a religious conflict but one part of side is using religion to lead it's followers to acheive their ultimate goal which is power and control. I hope everything is more clear with this new concept of terror.

Thanks.

2016-07-24 2:23 GMT+03:00 Emmanuel Astillero noelas...@yahoo.com [peacemakerscircle] <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>:

 

Suleyman, Mustapha - 

From what you wrote, Gulen appears to be a charismatic religious leader based in the U.S.. Perhaps the conflict arose because Gulen and his followers want an Islamic State, whereas, the present Turkish Government appears to be more secular than religious. For instance, do the coup plotters want a "Shariah Law" in Turkey?

The coup followers appear to be Muslim Fundamentalists - i.e., they want Turkey to return to a fundamental Islamic State; perhaps like ISIS.

Noel

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From: "Süleyman Ragıp Yazıcılar suleym...@gmail.com [peacemakerscircle]" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>
To: "peacemak...@yahoogroups.com" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 12:57 AM
Subject: [peacemakerscircle] Re: From Turkey

 

Noel, Mustafa said that: 

If we start from last question, this is not a religious conflict at all. Although many western people consider ruling party and President of Turkey as Islamists, that's not true. Yes, significant of their members are religious and conservative part of Turkey but you can't find any single action against secular system. Also since 2002, they have achieved to pass so many liberal reforms from Turkish parlimentary including to return back all assets and capital of Christian minority captured during early days of Turkish Republic. In addition to that, Turkish government also tried to open channels to all religious fractions in Turkey which were opressed for years and supported their charity activities domestically and internationally without choosing any sides. 

However, Gulen organization demanded more than that. This organization which is led by Fetullah Gulen leaded his followers to military, bureacracy, law, police forces and education institutions of state in last 40 years. You can find many articles in English about this issue. They started to follow instructions of Gulen instead of their official chiefs in their work place. Besides that, they archived all official files of these institutions and reported to their own organization. Also, they tried to get critical positions in state institutions and recruit only their members to these institutions. Even there were thousands of law people as judges and attorneys in state following his orders and they maintained so many cases following their leader but not justice to ''clear'' the way for their ultimate goal. This is why now every group different life styles in Turkey are opposing them.

What is their ultimate goal? Two words, power and control. Gulen thinks that his world vision including politics and religion is a holy one and his followers consider him as a holy figure who will change the world. So this is why they want to control every institution and trying to impose their approach no matter what. A real cult with unquestioning and dedicated followers. They don't feel uncomfortable with allying different groups in different countries and changing their actions to that group in their journey to their ultimate goal and that makes them so dangerous because even they are keeping their identity secret. 

What do they believe? Well, so far he changed his theology so many times, it is impossible to tell. For example, in Turkey, he claims he is following one of the most important scholars in Turkey; Bediuzzaman Said Nursi. In USA, he says that he is following Rumi who has a more soft and peaceful image in the world and also more famous. In Africa countries which they have organizations, they are pushing a different version. So mainly they only follow one man's; Gulen's ideas, close minded to different views. 

So government is perfect? Not at all. Turkey is a still progressing country towards EU. Ruling part has done so many reforms but especially in last 4 years you can observe that President and government had many critics about their actions. There are many policies especially in international politics which are criticised also there is an increasing political polarization between Turkish people. Also we need to advance and strengthen our democracy. 

With standing against last attempt of coup, now Turkish people are showing their dedication to democratic system of Turkish Republic. Yes, we know that there is still a way to a more democratic and developed Turkey but these kind of coups didn't work on democratic progress in our history and Turkish people are aware of that. We had 3 accomplished coups in last 60 years of Turkish Republic and every time we lost so many things in democratic progression. Also, in this time of rapid technology and social media, Turkish people already know that there isn't any single coup in Europe and USA in last 30 years and we don't deserve a life style under postals of military and worstly guided by one man. 

This is a question our friends in Western countries should reply. If you think democracy is the best political system for yourself why are you having hesitations to support our standing againts a military coup? Why we are in a position to defend and explain our taken measures to keep democracy in our country?  

23 Temmuz 2016 Cumartesi tarihinde, Emmanuel Astillero noelas...@yahoo.com [peacemakerscircle] <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com> yazdı:

 

Suleyman,

The way you wrote it, the coup in Turkey was mounted to substitute new leaders. Why? Have the sitting leaders done any wrong? What is there to complain about? Or is this merely a religious conflict between one faction of Islam against another?

Noel

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From: "Süleyman Ragıp Yazıcılar suleym...@gmail.com [peacemakerscircle]" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>
To: peacemak...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 11:27 PM
Subject: [peacemakerscircle] From Turkey [1 Attachment]

 

[Attachment(s) from =?UTF-8?B?U8O8bGV5bWFuIFJhZ8SxcCBZYXrEsWPEsWxhcg==?= included below]

Hi dear friends.

I want to share an article from Mustafa Ozyurt:

I want to thank you to all friends concerned about me and asked current situation in Turkey from different countries, really appreciated. It was really important to feel your support from Yemen, Egypt, Kosovo, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan, Malaysia, UK and Italy.

I want to summarise events in Q/A format, hope you will have more clear idea about one of our nation's most difficult nights; 15th of July, 2016.

Q. Who is responsible for this coup attempt?
A. Group of soldiers including generals and commanders who are member of an official terrorist organisation and following orders of a cleric (Fethullah Gulen) who is living in US as a non-citizen status.

They obey and follow this cleric's orders without any doubt and see him as a chosen and promised savior. Their significant feature is to keep themselves secret, act like a chameleon and cover their identity no matter what. Their faith system is similiar to ISIS which make them believe that people other than their ideology is expendable for their goals. No ethics and no moral values in following instructions of the terrorist leader.

Q. Why did they do that?
A. Turkish security forces was planning to obtain them this week with accusation of planning a coup and being a member of a terrorist organization. So they followed instructions of cleric and tried to apply their plan immediately.

Q. What was their aim?
A. Well, the first aim was to assasinate President of Turkey, taking control of Turkish Military Forces and Turkish Intelligence Agency, invading Turkish Police Forces and making a coup. Besides that, they also tried to cause a domestic war and provoke Turkish people to each other including civilians, soldiers and security forces.

Q. So what did they exactly do on Friday night?
A. These terrorists hidden in different positions of Turkish army, captured some colonels in different cities. They attacked hotel which President was having his vacation first. Then they started to bomb Turkish Parlimentary with parliments inside, Presidential Palace, General Staff Base of Turkish Army, Turkish Special Forces Building, Central TV Broadcast Center and Turkish Intelligence Agency with war planes they captured. They also captured Top Chief Officer of Turkish Army and also other top generals in charge of ground, navy and air forces.

Instantly, soldiers under command of those generals with/without knowing started to invade streets of Istanbul and Ankara with military vehicles and tanks. They sieged major Police Stations with those tanks, attacked to Turkish security forces in different places.

Q. Did they attack to civilians?
A. Yes. Now civil death toll is more than 100. After President managed to escape assasination, he directly came to Istanbul Ataturk Airport, showed himself on TV by FaceTime application and called all Turkish people to resist coup. So hundred thousands of Turkish people started to demonstrate against terrorists on streets and unfortunately they shot those civilians by fire arms and helicopters. They also invaded CNN Turk and Official Turkish TV Channel's studios and tried to stop broadcast of events.

Q. How did we manage to stop these terrorists and their coup attempt?
A. We can say thay Turkish people proudly defended country's democracy by standing against tanks and soldiers on streets. Also all Turkish political parties gathered together and showed unity against coup. Crucially, all private TV Channels also supported elected government and made their broadcasting against terrorists. By early hours of day, Turkish security forces started to make counter operations with support of Turkish army and citizens. On early Saturday, security forces started to capture commanders who are responsible for this coup attempt who saw early failure and try to run away.

Q. Is it completely finished?
A. We can say it is under control now but this terrorist group has still members in military, security forces, bureacracy, courts, newspapers and TV channels. They use social media effectively with their followers and try to manipulate Turkish people with false photos and disinformation. Turkish government and secuirty forces now trying to capture terrorists in critical positions but it will take time. Even chief assistant of Chief Officer of Turkish Army was one of terrorists and he put his gun to him. So it will take time and Turkish people are still on streets to keep democracy.

Q. Where should you follow news?
A. Most of western media waited few hours to broadcast coup attempt and after they saw it's failed, they started to make their broadcasting. Now they give most of news falsely and try to show this coup attempt as a war between Military and Government. They do not give details or give false news to create a worst image of country. So I suggest you to get updates from Turkish sources such as Hurriyet Daily News (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/) and TRT World. Also this twitter account is in English and gives updates: https://twitter.com/StreetStreamTR

Q. So what happens now?
A. Turkish security forces still tracking members of these terrorists and trying to avoid another coup attempt. While Turkish people are still on streets, followers of terrorist cleric are trying to create a pressure on protesters with disinformation and they are trying to cause a domestic war by manipulating secularists and other groups with photos taken from other countries in other times. Officials suspect that a second wave of a terrorist attack is still on progress.

Turkish government is getting prepared to request refundment of Fethullah Gulen who is the leader of terrorists but hosting country seems reluctant which increases manipulations over their support to him.

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Süleyman Ragıp Yazıcılar - Genç Dergisi - twitter.com/suleymanragip
                    
www.gencdergisi.com - www.facebook.com/gencdergi

--

Süleyman Ragıp Yazıcılar - Genç Dergisi - twitter.com/suleymanragip
                    
www.gencdergisi.com - www.facebook.com/gencdergi

--

Süleyman Ragıp Yazıcılar - Genç Dergisi - twitter.com/suleymanragip
                    
www.gencdergisi.com - www.facebook.com/gencdergi

--

Süleyman Ragıp Yazıcılar - Genç Dergisi - twitter.com/suleymanragip
                    
www.gencdergisi.com - www.facebook.com/gencdergi

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Posted by: Renato Zamora <rena...@yahoo.com>

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[Emmanuel Astillero]

OK, thanks, Suleyman for sending these 3 articles. 

I notice that they are all pro-Erdogan an anti Gullen. To balance our views, can you send 3 articles that are anti-Erdogan and pro-Gullen? We want to know why the pro-Gullen coup was mounted. 

We want to learn from the Turkey experience because we also have a religious Christian group here who votes as a block. As a consequence, our elected politicians, which this group supports, becomes beholden to them (the group) and the group is able to put into positions police, military, prosecutors, judges, etc. whose decisions then become favorable to this group.

While this group has remained peaceful, when it has almost total control, it could be also ambitious.

Your Turkey experience parallels the experience of Iran when the Ayatollahs removed Shah Reza Pahlevi who was backed by the U.S.

Noel

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From: "Süleyman Ragıp Yazıcılar suleym...@gmail.com [peacemakerscircle]" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>
To: "peacemak...@yahoogroups.com" <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com>

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Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 1:08 AM

Subject: [peacemakerscircle] Re: From Turkey

 

Hi Noel,

Yes, you are right, our political history is complex but this last incident is really simple; a group which is hidden into all veins of Turkish public institutions in last 40 years made their final attack to gain power and Turkish people defended their democracy and country. Again, I want to mention that Turkey doesn't have secularity discussion at the moment but trying to advance its democracy and putting efforts to make all public insitutions under control of civilians. Erdogan has pros and cons but nobody can claim he has a signal to put secularization down or change democratic system of Turkey or else changing liberal economy to something else.

I strongly suggest you to read articles written by Turkish journalists with different political approaches:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/22/opinion/who-was-behind-the-coup-attempt-in-turkey.html?smid=tw-share

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/thinking-gulen-is-a-peaceful-scholar-is-a-huge-mischaracterization.aspx?PageID=238&NID=102173&NewsCatID=548

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/what-the-west-must-see-about-the-failed-coup-in-turkey.aspx?pageID=449&nID=102070&NewsCatID=409

Best regards,

31 Temmuz 2016 Pazar tarihinde, Emmanuel Astillero noelas...@yahoo.com [peacemakerscircle] <peacemak...@yahoogroups.com> yazdı:

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