Intersex: what does it mean?
Lyngine Calizo
i've been reading some of the discussion on T* and intersexed folk and
sometime back someone (sorry it was a while back so i forget who) asked
for a definition of intersexed, but no one answered and it got lost in
the discussion. could someone give a definition? i'd be interested. i've
heard most of the other terms, but this one is new to me.
thanks,
lyngine
--
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is available at <http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~wjfraser/swlab/modpolicy.html>
and is posted weekly. Questions and concerns should be addressed to the
moderators at <swlab-...@panix.com>.
Lyngine Calizo
Lyngine Calizo
Johanna wrote:
(snipped informative answer)
thanks for the reply. i actually do research in neuroendocrinology and
know the biology. unfortunately the human side isn't taught in classes.
many thanks,
Yasmiin S. Davis
Lori Stewart wrote:
>
> I wonder if their is such a thing as intersexed, transgender,
> homosexual,
> etc. or do we just need to put people in categories so we can more
> efficiently distinguish them from us? This month's Advocate has a
> neat
> article of how the concept of Gay is questionable. BTW I seem to
> recall
> there are recognized five genetic sexes, to include a female gene.
>
> Lori
Well being "A post-op TS" and being Lesbian -- I guess -- my sexual
preference being women -- what ever that means -- well one has to start
some where ????
Yasmiin
Kira D. Triea
Johannah wrote:
+----
| [ lots of sensitive, sensible and informative advice deleted ]
+----
Hi Jo,
Best answer ever. Thanks.
Kira
Lyngine Calizo
Margot Sheehan (mar...@animal.blarg.net) wrote:
: All the foregoing groups get confused in the public mind. In the UK the
: BBC2 has presented forthright documentaries on intersex concerns, but I
: haven't seen anything yet in the US.
there was a short segment on "Dateline", a news-magazine type show on
NBC, a few weeks ago. it was quite well done. i was rather appalled at
the attitudes of some of the doctors however. they basically dismissed
intersex concerns and could not accept that some didn't want to be
surgically altered in any way. one doctor was incredibly condescending
and dismissive. he did bring up an interesting issue. he justified what
he was doing by saying that he wanted to help these children adjust and
have lives as close to "normal" (i suppose he means mainstream) as
possible, and he couldn't understand how choosing a gender for a child
and making surgical adjustments could be a bad thing (then again he
wasn't exactly trying very hard to understand, but i digress). after his
comment i wondered---if i had a child who was intersexed and chose to let
the child grow up as they were born (no surgery or anything), would that
child then be angry later in life for not having a chance to seem
"normal". i'm not asking the question as a justification for the surgery
or anything. unless there are severe health issues, i'm not so sure the
surgery should be done. it seems like a hard decision with no easy
resolution. thoughts anyone????
lyngine
Kira D. Triea
[Moderator's note : this has been posted because
it was a response to many queries on the group
of late. However, striiiiictly speaking, this
sort of discussion of intersexuality is teetering
on the edge of acceptability vis-a-vis the
mod policy : perhaps future discussions could be
taken to email. Thanx. - cdm]
Hi Lyngine. I'm Kira Triea of ISNA and HWA (Hermaphrodites With
Attitude - activist intersexual group). I am one of a small group of
out, personally, socially and politically aware intersexed people in
the world today. I do the web pages for isna, writing and demo
organizing as well as various other trouble making activities. To my
knowledge, I am the first real intersexed person to admit so on the
net... sci.med Feb 1993. A dubious honor if ever there was one. :-)
Lyngine Calizo writes:
+------
| there was a short segment on "Dateline", a news-magazine type show on
| NBC, a few weeks ago. it was quite well done.
+------
Also, intersex issues have recently been addressed by both Time (April
1 "A Boy Without A Penis") & April 14 Letters section) and Newsweek
(May 12 "Gender Limbo") ... both available online at
http://www.isna.org .
+------
| i was rather appalled at the attitudes of some of the doctors however.
| they basically dismissed intersex concerns and could not accept that
| some didn't want to be surgically altered in any way.
+------
I (we, ie. ISNA members) have offered to talk to many doctors about the
results of their surgical interventions. So far, there has not been
very much in the way of favorable response. One actually stated that
he had "faith" that this treatment modality worked in preventing
cognitive and psychological trauma in intersexed children. He is
wrong. One Hopkins doctors called us zealots. I love that... they are
cutting people up. There has been *same* favorable response however,
from some doctors. It's a beginning.
That was AAP MD Kenneth Glassberg on Dateline I believe... he
will have a chance make good on his claim that he wants to talk to
intersexed people this November at the AAP in New Orleans. Riki
Wilchins (GenderPAC founder and T* political activist) and myself are
organizing a demo and hunger strike to protest IGM. More reputable
types (like, those with degrees) will try to get in to talk directly
for our cause. Be there or be square. It's free. Starve for three days
with some Real Live Hermaphrodites (TM).. it'll be fun!
+------
| if i had a child who was intersexed and chose to let the
| child grow up as they were born (no surgery or anything), would that
| child then be angry later in life for not having a chance to seem
| "normal".
+------
I know several people who were raised with non-standard genitals -
they are quite happy to have escaped surgical trauma and the resulting
psychological trauma leading to problems like lifelong anorgasmia,
debilitating lack of self image or suicide. Sure, they are different
and sometimes had trouble as kids. All different kids have
troubles. Lots of adults spend a lot of time trying to be
different. One thing they have though is their genitals and a sense of
self worth that comes from their parents.
What ISNA members have found, due to a sharing of many personal
experiences, is that, in general, the more medicalization one of us
has been exposed to, the more personal, physical and psychological
problems we seem to end up struggling with as adults.
Surgery doesn't make "normal" genitals as the doctors proclaim... the
results are horrible and mostly non-functional. The roots of this
surgery lie in andrcentrism... 90% of all intersexed kids are
surgically altered to become female. As ome Hopkins doctor quipped
"It's easier to make a hole than a pole." The trouble is ... it may be
easier, but it is a very non-functional hole. The underlying
socio-medical assumption here is that it is ok to have a
non-functioning "vagina" but it is not ok to be a "deficient"
male... one with a small penis. If we are all made into girls... well
it won't really matter then will it?
The solution isn't a question of surgicalizing different bodies but of
parenting and love.
+------
| i'm not asking the question as a justification for the surgery or
| anything. unless there are severe health issues, i'm not so sure the
| surgery should be done. it seems like a hard decision with no easy
| resolution. thoughts anyone????
+------
Different types of intersexuality seem to produce different modalities
of sex/gender/sexuality groups. For instance, people who have fairly
ongoing androgenic influences, like CAH XX people, are quite different
from say, someone like myself who was exposed to androgens, progestin,
only in utero and experienced feminizing puberty. Educated guesses can
be made about how to *raise* a child... leaving the option open for a
change of gender and possible surgery later in life... near to
puberty. It can all be handled logically, humanely and with full
education and consent. Some intersexed people *will* want surgical
intervention... but it should be offered during a time when that
persons knowledge of themselves, their body, and their sexuality makes
such a decision meaningful. Surgery is more effective later as well,
though still dangerous for sexual sensation.
Is this post on topic? I think so... most intersexed people that I
know are lesbians and the reason we were subjected to surgical
intervention was because doctors actually imply to parents that if
they do the surgery... their child will not grow up to be Queer. It
ain't workin'.
---
Kira Triea
Tactical Team Leader - HWA, Body Colonization Div.
guitar and vocals - "Sex Kosmologie"
Linux hacker since kernel 0.11
(remove 'YYY' for email)
Tip of the day: don't go to bed with your synthesizer on, set to the
"ghostly wraith" patch if you co-habitate with kitty cats.
Stephanie Warrick
About my earlier post in this thread:- I originally wrote a line attributing
Dianne's comments to her, but because I forgot to use a header-message
separator my mail program ate the attribution line instead. It really wasn't
my intention to be rude to Dianne in any way, and if I seemed that way, then
I'm very sorry.
Stephanie
Julie Waters
lca...@mail.med.upenn.edu (Lyngine Calizo) wrote:
>...he justified what
You know, we could make a lot of very intelligent people more "normal"
through giving them drugs designed to slow their intellect. I'll tell you
first hand that there's a lot of serious pain in growing up as a "gifted"
child, and I never "fit in" at all because I was so good at mental tasks.
I'm still glad they let me keep my intelligence, anyway.
--Julie
--
Julie Waters, Armadillo Affectionada
ju...@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
http://data.club.cc.cmu.edu/~julie/
Dianne Millen
In article <1.1}seq...@panix.com>,
Stephanie Warrick <ucj...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>I'd like to request that the mod policy on this be revised. I thought Kira's
>post was not only interesting and informative, but also very on-topic.
>Given that a large proportion of intersexed people identify as lesbian, how
>can a discussion of medical intervention which damages their sexuality from
>infancy be off-topic? Besides, Kira and other intersexed activists are
>raising important questions about innate and environmental influences on
>sexual identity and orientation which I am sure will prove to be highly
>relevant to the entire LGBT community. With all due respect, I think the
>rest of us would do well to sit up and pay attention rather than saying
>"nothing to do with us".
;-) I did say 'teetering on the edge' : if people want
to discuss this issue, I'm more than happy to continue
facilitating it. If at any point people start arguing
about whether intersexed individuals have the 'right'
to post here (cf the transsexual wars of past times)
then we will be outside the policy and posts may be
rejected. I agree that such issues are relevant to
the LGB community : my concern is principally to try and
ensure that massive flamewars don't ensue on the issue
of intersexuality, and also to keep these discussions
of continuing relevance to LGB people rather than
being more about intersexuality per se.
While I am here, I want to take Bagheera's point
made elsewhere about Charlie Fulton's post about
semen : I think I had my head somewhere else when
I passed that one. Sorry to anyone else who felt
this was inappropriate : in retrospect I made a
bad decision there.
Dianne, mod, buried in thesis
x
--
Q: What's the difference between a codependent and a toilet?
A: A toilet doesn't follow you around after you shit on it.
(xa...@mindspring.com)
Sexy new homepages: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~diannem/
Stephanie Warrick
> [Moderator's note : this has been posted because
> it was a response to many queries on the group
> of late. However, striiiiictly speaking, this
> sort of discussion of intersexuality is teetering
> on the edge of acceptability vis-a-vis the
> mod policy : perhaps future discussions could be
> taken to email. Thanx. - cdm]
I'd like to request that the mod policy on this be revised. I thought Kira's
post was not only interesting and informative, but also very on-topic.
Given that a large proportion of intersexed people identify as lesbian, how
can a discussion of medical intervention which damages their sexuality from
infancy be off-topic? Besides, Kira and other intersexed activists are
raising important questions about innate and environmental influences on
sexual identity and orientation which I am sure will prove to be highly
relevant to the entire LGBT community. With all due respect, I think the
rest of us would do well to sit up and pay attention rather than saying
"nothing to do with us".
Stephanie
Stephanie Warrick
cdm...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Dianne Millen) wrote:
> ;-) I did say 'teetering on the edge' : if people want
> to discuss this issue, I'm more than happy to continue
> facilitating it. If at any point people start arguing
> about whether intersexed individuals have the 'right'
> to post here (cf the transsexual wars of past times)
> then we will be outside the policy and posts may be
> rejected. I agree that such issues are relevant to
> the LGB community : my concern is principally to try and
> ensure that massive flamewars don't ensue on the issue
> of intersexuality, and also to keep these discussions
> of continuing relevance to LGB people rather than
> being more about intersexuality per se.
Thanks for being so open about this. I think this is a good approach
to the problem. I do understand your concerns about flamewars, but I
think the intersexed posters here deserve all our support, and for
the moment I see no sign of that sort of controversy. If it does
arise though, I think you've separated out the issues clearly enough
here to keep it well under control.
> Dianne, mod, buried in thesis
Ah yes. *sympathetic grin*
Stephanie, also hoping the light at the end of the tunnel gets
switched on sometime soon...
Bagheera
Dianne Millen wrote:
(stuff snipped)
> While I am here, I want to take Bagheera's point
> made elsewhere about Charlie Fulton's post about
> semen : I think I had my head somewhere else when
> I passed that one. Sorry to anyone else who felt
> this was inappropriate : in retrospect I made a
> bad decision there.
>
> Dianne, mod, buried in thesis ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I can definitely empathize. Thanks for the response.
Best regards,
Bagheera (buried in dissertation, clients, etc.)
--------------------------------------------------------
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that
in the process [s]he does not become a monster.
- Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------
Gabe
Lyngine Calizo wrote:
>
> Margot Sheehan (mar...@animal.blarg.net) wrote:
> : All the foregoing groups get confused in the public mind. In the UK the
> : BBC2 has presented forthright documentaries on intersex concerns, but I
> : haven't seen anything yet in the US.
>
> the attitudes of some of the doctors however. they basically dismissed
> intersex concerns and could not accept that some didn't want to be
> he was doing by saying that he wanted to help these children adjust and
> possible, and he couldn't understand how choosing a gender for a child
> wasn't exactly trying very hard to understand, but i digress). after his
> the child grow up as they were born (no surgery or anything), would that
> child then be angry later in life for not having a chance to seem
> or anything. unless there are severe health issues, i'm not so sure the
> surgery should be done. it seems like a hard decision with no easy
> resolution. thoughts anyone????
>
<blush mode> I haven't yet seen the "Dateline" segment,
entitled "Gender Limbo", but I heard that it was reasonably
well done </blush mode>. Thoughts on sugery vs. non-surgery?
Well, what Dr. Glassman and his ilk keep forgetting is that
there is simply *NO* follow-up studies that prove his (and
the AMA's) assertion that this protocol promotes healthy
gender identification-adjustment. Point of fact, the *only*
study done, in Leeds (UK), seems to point to the opposite
conclusion; i.e. that these surgeries are potentially
harmful in both pyshcological and physical ways.
Much of our argument, as intersexuals, comes down to
"consent" vis a child cannot consent and acnnot not consent
to this type of surgery, which is largely cosmetic, and
which many of us see in politicized terms of patriarchial
imposition of so-called "norms" (not to mention a healthy
undercurrent of homophobia mixed in).
I can cite two people, one a member of ISNA who haven't
had surgery, and one, a former member of ISNA who opted
for surgery as an 18-year old. Both are content in their
decisions... while many of us who have had surgery forced
on us are, *ahem* less than thrilled.
I don't believe in this type of surgery (for anyone but
adults) unless there is a specific physiological/ health
concern involved such as the ability to evacuate urine or
menstral fluids. If an adult chooses to have it, fine.
I am even willing to say that, yes, the legal age of consent,
though arbitrary, is good enough.
For more information check out: http://www.isna.org
My two cents' worth (gee I actually had time to read swlab
today!)
Gabe
"the *happy* herm"
Kira D. Triea
Dianne Millen wrote:
+----
| In article <1.1}seq...@panix.com>,
| Stephanie Warrick <ucj...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote|
|
| I'd like to request that the mod policy on this be revised. I thought
| Kira's post was not only interesting and informative, but also very
| n-topic. Given that a large proportion of intersexed people identify
| as lesbian, how can a discussion of medical intervention which damages
| their sexuality from infancy be off-topic? Besides, Kira and other
| intersexed activists are raising important questions about innate and
| environmental influences on sexual identity and orientation which I am
| sure will prove to be highly relevant to the entire LGBT
| community. With all due respect, I think the rest of us would do well
| to sit up and pay attention rather than saying "nothing to do with
| us".
+----
Wow! Thanks Stephanie... you have the sort of understanding I am
always hoping to find when I write this stuff.
...{Dianne}...
+---
| ;-) I did say 'teetering on the edge' | if people want
| to discuss this issue, I'm more than happy to continue
| facilitating it. If at any point people start arguing
| about whether intersexed individuals have the 'right'
| to post here (cf the transsexual wars of past times)
| then we will be outside the policy and posts may be
| rejected. I agree that such issues are relevant to
| the LGB community | my concern is principally to try and
| ensure that massive flamewars don't ensue on the issue
| of intersexuality, and also to keep these discussions
| of continuing relevance to LGB people rather than
| being more about intersexuality per se.
+---
Well... I really felt like I had to explain a lot - most people do not
know much about intersexuality (equate it with transexuality and
such). My intent was not to use swlab as a platform for a rant or
agenda expression... but to provide some education and answer the
question posed. Hey, a lesbian asked a question about intersex and an
intersexed lesbian answered... no problem right? :-)
*Now* comes the rant...
Intersexed people number about 1:2000 (best research by Anne Fausto
Sterling - Brown). About five children per day are currently
subjected to intersex surgery in USA. When it happens in Africa it's
called FGM...(there is a bill forbidding it here). When it happens here
it's called "surgical reconstruction". It needs to be stopped.
---
Kira
Stephanie Warrick
mar...@animal.blarg.net (Margot Sheehan) wrote:
> Another argument in favor of doing the infant surgery ...
Another argument in favour? I haven't seen the first one yet.
> ... is that the adults
> may have a great deal of trouble getting surgical assistance. This
> assumption sits at the back of the medics' minds.
On what basis do you say that? If it's true, it's a frighteningly stupid
and irresponsible thought process.
For a start, it assumes that surgery is always desirable -- in the face
of all the contraindications from the ISNA's research -- and that
patient consent is a matter of no importance.
Even if non-essential assignment surgery is genuinely believed to be
desirable, to perform it on an infant just to forestall assumed future
conservatism amongst colleagues is indefensible. IMNSVHO, any doctor
with that concern and an ounce of professional responsibility would be
openly calling for a change in attitudes to older intersexed patients
seeking surgery, instead.
Stephanie
Roving Reporter
On 6 Jul 1997, Stephanie Warrick wrote:
>mar...@animal.blarg.net (Margot Sheehan) wrote:
>
>> Another argument in favor of doing the infant surgery ...
>
>Another argument in favour? I haven't seen the first one yet.
>
>> ... is that the adults
>> may have a great deal of trouble getting surgical assistance. This
>> assumption sits at the back of the medics' minds.
>
>On what basis do you say that? If it's true, it's a frighteningly stupid
>and irresponsible thought process.
>
>For a start, it assumes that surgery is always desirable -- in the face
>of all the contraindications from the ISNA's research -- and that
>patient consent is a matter of no importance.
>
>Even if non-essential assignment surgery is genuinely believed to be
>desirable, to perform it on an infant just to forestall assumed future
>conservatism amongst colleagues is indefensible. IMNSVHO, any doctor
>with that concern and an ounce of professional responsibility would be
>openly calling for a change in attitudes to older intersexed patients
>seeking surgery, instead.
A very similar argument is ongoing about surgery to reduce deafness by
doing a cochlear implant in infants born deaf. Like the above, CI is also
not a "matter of life and death" -- I think it's all part of the "slippery
slope theory" of eugenics.
**********************************************************
* Therese Shellabarger - tls...@concentric.net *
* http://www.concentric.net/~tlshell/ Shalom tovarot! *
* XENA: http://www.concentric.net/~tlshell/xena.html *
**********************************************************
* See if I care about your opinion, the life I've led -- *
* each dawn I go forth with sword in hand, to sweep scum *
* from the decks of my battleship. Revenge at last, and *
* it be sweet, too, 'cuz now I get the girl, _not you_. *
**********************************************************
Finger: use tls...@finger.concentric.net
Kira D. Triea
mar...@animal.blarg.net (Margot Sheehan) writes:
+----
| Another argument in favor of doing the infant surgery is that the
| adults may have a great deal of trouble getting surgical
| assistance. This assumption sits at the back of the surgeons minds.
+----
Excuse me?
In all likelihood, *most* intersexed people would probably eschew
surgical intervention if allowed to exercise self- determination. A
few, in rather unique circumstances would opt for surgical
intervention, best offered around puberty, when a child has some
notion of sex, gender, body image and sexuality - and when the
prognosis for a favorable surgical outcome has *some* validity
(completely lacking in neonatal surgery).
Our focus is not on surgery itself, but on unconsented surgery, which
may legally be imposed up until the age of consent - according to what
doctors are able to coerce parents into believing. Parents have been
told, for instance, that if a clitorectomy is not performed that
children can die. A clitoris is defined as "too large" if it exceeds
.9 cm in length. Sometimes surgeons simply perform gonadectomies and
clitorectomies without consent. One brave mother of an adopted child
in Fla is currently fighting a court case over this.
An ethnomethodological analysis, from a feminist perspective, of the
current treatment modality for intersexed children will reveal a
concern for andrarchy and the preservation of technocratic control as
being primary motivational forces behind intersex surgery. Though the
*specifics* of this control varies across the l/g/b/t/i population,
the source is the same. We are all Queer.
---
Kira Triea (lose 'YYY' for email)
HWA
www.isna.org
www.qis.net/~triea
Stephanie Warrick
tr...@qis.net (Kira D. Triea) wrote:
> Wow! Thanks Stephanie... you have the sort of understanding I am
> always hoping to find when I write this stuff.
Hi Kira,
I'm sorry about the long delay in replying to your post. This was very nice
of you, thanks. Actually, coming across your material has been a salutary
experience for me. A few weeks ago I had no idea the issues you raise
existed. It's been shocking and educational in equal measures to find out
what's happening to intersexed babies.
Since then I've looked at online abstracts from the medical literature and
can hardly believe the mismatch between the ISNA view of gender assignment
and the surgical successes that are claimed. I found abstracts for 10-15
papers published since 1991 on "reconstructive" surgery on intersexed
children assigned as female. None reported conclusions against gender
assignment in early infancy and most recommended it, but they're clearly
using cosmetic and passive notions of female genitalia in measuring
success. Only one abstract even mentioned clitoral function as an issue.
It's horrific -- and as though the whole era of sexual politics had never
even happened for these doctors.
> *Now* comes the rant...
>
> Intersexed people number about 1:2000 (best research by Anne Fausto
> Sterling - Brown). About five children per day are currently
> subjected to intersex surgery in USA. When it happens in Africa it's
> called FGM...(there is a bill forbidding it here). When it happens here
> it's called "surgical reconstruction". It needs to be stopped.
I agree. But for that there needs to be far greater public awareness. I'm
sure many people who would be ready to support you are as unaware as I was.
How long have intersexed groups been campaigning on this issue? In the UK
I've never seen media coverage of any intersexed issues, except AIS, in one
TV documentary where the term intersexed wasn't used, and the rest of the
programme was about gender dysphoria.
This is the first time I've seen you refer to FGM. I think it's a very good
approach to introducing the issue to non-intersexed audiences and could be a
shortcut to getting broader political support.
Best regards,
Stephanie
Gabe
Stephanie Warrick wrote:
> Have intersexed groups openly challenged the medical establishment to
> justify the assignment surgery? Have you had any conferences? What could
> these doctors possibly say for themselves, confronted with irate adults?
> I'd be very interested to hear more about this.
Of course, and until recently we have been rebuffed
by endcrinologists, urologists, pediatricians, etc.
Our biggest show of support, as far as I know, has come
from the American Psychiatrists Assn., particularly their
G/L/B/T contingent. When they met in San Diego this past
Spring, we were welcomed with open arms. The medical community,
unfortunately, is much less open-minded, and although there
has been some clandestine support, many physicians and
surgeons are afraid to "come out" for fear of the backlash
they will recieve in challenging accepted protocol (a protocol,
I might add, that is laden with hetrosexism, patriarchy and
power and sexual abuses). Scary, isn't it?
Gabe
Angst Girl (Jillian)
I have a question about IGM that I'm not sure has been covered here.....
Pardon me for being ignorant but I cannot find this information...
I am wondering, when a child is born intersexed (correct term?), do the
doctors consult with the parents before assigning a sex? I mean if I were
to have an intersexed child would the doctors go ahead and do surgery
without my knowledge?
If this question offends I am sorry I am just really wondering what would
happen if a parent said no to surgery. Do the parents even get a choice?
I hope I haven't offended anyone. I admit to being completely ignorant on
this issue but I am trying to become more educated.
Jillian
--
Tell me, who is your boogey man?
That's who I will be
You don't have to like me for who I am
But we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me
-Ani Difranco
Jillian can now be found at jgr...@mail.webspan.net
Angst Girl (Jillian)
In article <1.u^0pq...@panix.com>, Stephanie Warrick <ucj...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> I'll leave it up to Gabe or Kira to answer your question.
>
> Jillian, I'm speculating here -- are you wondering whether educating
> prospective parents might be a way forward? I'm sure it's important, but
> children's rights should be safeguarded by the law regardless of the
> parents' wishes -- or rather their susceptibility to persuasion by
> doctors -- just as for female genital mutilation. Otherwise you just
> have a lottery, where the intersexed children of strong, enlightened
> parents are the lucky ones. And lucky is overstated, when the rest of
> society remains ignorant and closed-minded.
>
> Stephanie
>
Actually my thinking hadn't gone that far...... My question came up because
I want to know if I have a child who is born intersexed...am I going to be
informed of this and given the choice for surgery or will the doctors
make that decision for me? When I am attempting to educate myself on an
issue I like to start with "How could this effect me personally" and then
move on to "how does this effect the world globally?" So I really haven't
gotten anywhere near the global part as I am just beginning to undertstand
the personal..... that's all.
Jill
Kira Triea
Stephanie writes:
+------
| Since then I've looked at online abstracts from the medical literature
| and can hardly believe the mismatch between the ISNA view of gender
| assignment and the surgical successes that are claimed. I found
| abstracts for 10-15 papers published since 1991 on "reconstructive"
| surgery on intersexed children assigned as female.
+------
One of the often used arguments surrounding intersexuality, indeed,
part of the prevailing socio-medical mythology of intersex, is what I
call the "Oh So Rare" argument. It is easier to ignore a problem if it
is 'OSR' for instance, easier to continue to relegate the reality of
IGM to the back alleys of medical practice if it occurs in only "one
per several million" as I was told. This also helps to keep intersexed
people more isolated. I have done Medline searches for journal
articles and actually found *thousands* of individual cases written up
within a five year time span. This has been duplicated by other ISNA
members.
+------
| None reported conclusions against gender assignment in early infancy
| and most recommended it, but they're clearly using cosmetic and
| passive notions of female genitalia in measuring success. Only one
| abstract even mentioned clitoral function as an issue. It's horrific
| -- and as though the whole era of sexual politics had never even
| happened for these doctors.
+------
"Results were excellent for function and appearance".
This means that after the surgery the surgical team felt great and
looked buff as ever. :-|
A recent groundbreaking study at Leads Hosp. found only negative
results in followup on 30 (?- from memory) post-vaginoplasty CAH
females.
A second major defensive deceit is the "We do the surgery so much
better now and we're sorry your outcome was so poor". This construct
establishes a constant 20+ year window in which IGM can continue.
+------
| > *Now* comes the rant...
| >
| > Intersexed people number about 1:2000 (best research by Anne Fausto
| > Sterling - Brown). About five children per day are currently
| > subjected to intersex surgery in USA. When it happens in Africa it's
| > called FGM...(there is a bill forbidding it here). When it happens here
| > it's called "surgical reconstruction". It needs to be stopped.
|
| I agree. But for that there needs to be far greater public awareness. I'm
| sure many people who would be ready to support you are as unaware as I was.
| How long have intersexed groups been campaigning on this issue?
+------
ISNA began officially about 3+ years ago. There were two or three
members, including Cheryl and myself, at that time - now 200+. The
first HWA organized demonstration against IGM occurred last Oct. at
the Boston AAP meeting... the second this May in New York at Columbia
Presbyterian. I am now planning the third to occur at the AAP
convention in New Orleans this Nov.
These demonstrations are valuable but just one aspect of a
multi-facetted approach. Unfortunately we are spread a bit thin right
now.
+------
| This is the first time I've seen you refer to FGM. I think it's a very
| good approach to introducing the issue to non-intersexed audiences and
| could be a shortcut to getting broader political support.
+------
It could be... but it isn't. This is a source of considerable
frustration for the IS activists who have attempted this vector - to
date with no success (see Gabe's post).
sincerely,
Kira Triea - HWA/ISNA
http://www.isna.org
http://www.qis.net/~triea
Stephanie Warrick
A few bits are snipped, here and there...
Kira Triea <tr...@qis.net> wrote:
> Stephanie writes:
>
> +------
> | Since then I've looked at online abstracts from the medical literature
> | and can hardly believe the mismatch between the ISNA view of gender
> | assignment and the surgical successes that are claimed. I found
> | abstracts for 10-15 papers published since 1991 on "reconstructive"
> | surgery on intersexed children assigned as female.
> +------
>
> One of the often used arguments surrounding intersexuality, indeed,
> part of the prevailing socio-medical mythology of intersex, is what I
> call the "Oh So Rare" argument. It is easier to ignore a problem if it
> is 'OSR' for instance, easier to continue to relegate the reality of
> IGM to the back alleys of medical practice if it occurs in only "one
> per several million" as I was told. This also helps to keep intersexed
> people more isolated. I have done Medline searches for journal
> articles and actually found *thousands* of individual cases written up
> within a five year time span. This has been duplicated by other ISNA
> members.
I have no doubt whatsoever about that! It never occurred to me that what
I wrote could have been construed as backing the OSR argument. OK, let
me clarify why I had so few abstracts...
Firstly, as a non-medic, I was using the ISI scientific database, which
no doubt covers fewer journals. Secondly, I found hundreds of papers on
surgery on intersexed children; of the small proportion with available
abstracts, I selected only the few with *conclusions* on children
assigned as *female*. Thirdly, each of the papers to which I refer covers
between 33 and 283 children. It's rare to find papers about individual
case studies in scientific journals.
Having said that, and in no way intending to contradict you, it's my
impression that the surgery is actually underreported and underdiscussed
in the literature, especially given that it is so frequently performed
(approx. 1 in 2000 births, as you said). I did a search for papers on
cochlear implantation surgery, after reading Therese's post. In contrast
to the CI literature, where the deaf community's strong opposition to
surgery on infants gets *some* acknowledgement, however inadequate, and
drives some research, the most striking thing about the papers I found
on intersexed surgery is the absolute silence about the controversy.
> A recent groundbreaking study at Leads Hosp. found only negative
> results in followup on 30 (?- from memory) post-vaginoplasty CAH
> females.
That's excellent news. I found only one long-term follow-up study (the
abstract was blandly positive).
> A second major defensive deceit is the "We do the surgery so much
> better now and we're sorry your outcome was so poor". This construct
> establishes a constant 20+ year window in which IGM can continue.
But given that 20+ year window, they've no basis on which to conclude
it's currently better. They are clearly working from the premise that
early "reconstruction" is necessary, so the costs are necessary costs.
But that's presumably not a *medical* premise in most cases, so it's a
point of attack. I was interested to see in Gabe's post that the American
Psychiatrists' Association have been receptive to the ISNA. I wonder
whether they can be persuaded into higher profile support, against that
underlying assumption.
BTW, Kira, and Gabe, in case I give the slightest impression here or
elsewhere I imagine I'm suggesting something new, I don't. I'm just
thinking about issues which are new to me, and probably to many people
reading this discussion.
> ISNA began officially about 3+ years ago. There were two or three
> members, including Cheryl and myself, at that time - now 200+. The
> first HWA organized demonstration against IGM occurred last Oct. at
> the Boston AAP meeting... the second this May in New York at Columbia
> Presbyterian. I am now planning the third to occur at the AAP
> convention in New Orleans this Nov.
>
> These demonstrations are valuable but just one aspect of a
> multi-facetted approach. Unfortunately we are spread a bit thin right
> now.
You're doing an incredible job, from what I've seen. I just hope that
this discussion is helping to broaden your support.
Stephanie
The Breyers Traitor
Kira Triea <tr...@qis.net>, in article <1.j7p...@panix.com>, dixit:
>ISNA began officially about 3+ years ago. There were two or three
>members, including Cheryl and myself, at that time - now 200+. The
>first HWA organized demonstration against IGM occurred last Oct. at
>the Boston AAP meeting... the second this May in New York at Columbia
>Presbyterian. I am now planning the third to occur at the AAP
>convention in New Orleans this Nov.
Damn, I'm sorry I missed it. (The one in NYC in May.) What's AAP?
American Association of Pediatricians? Good place to start.
>These demonstrations are valuable but just one aspect of a
>multi-facetted approach. Unfortunately we are spread a bit thin right
>now.
How can I help? Does one write letters? And to whom? (NOW is already
on the list.) I suppose there must be journals of pediatric medicine;
where else would be appropriate?
--
____
Piglet \bi/ http://www.evolution.com/ Now hiring!
pig...@piglet.org \/ Forward to the past - with attitude... -Peggy Seeger
Roving Reporter
On 21 Jul 1997, Angst Girl (Jillian) wrote:
>In article <1.u^0pq...@panix.com>, Stephanie Warrick <ucj...@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Jillian, I'm speculating here -- are you wondering whether educating
>> prospective parents might be a way forward? I'm sure it's important, but
>> children's rights should be safeguarded by the law regardless of the
>> parents' wishes -- or rather their susceptibility to persuasion by
>> doctors -- just as for female genital mutilation. Otherwise you just
>> have a lottery, where the intersexed children of strong, enlightened
>> parents are the lucky ones. And lucky is overstated, when the rest of
>> society remains ignorant and closed-minded.
>
>I want to know if I have a child who is born intersexed...am I going to be
>informed of this and given the choice for surgery or will the doctors
>make that decision for me? When I am attempting to educate myself on an
>issue I like to start with "How could this effect me personally" and then
>move on to "how does this effect the world globally?" So I really haven't
>gotten anywhere near the global part as I am just beginning to undertstand
>the personal..... that's all.
Interesting discussion, I don't know anyone in my family who might be
intersexed so I can't comment from personal experience, but it makes
sense to me to leave children to develop normally as long as there is no
physiological malfunction, i.e. as long as everything "works."
What I'm curious about though is, when it comes to finding jobs, etc. how
do intersexed people who have *not* been operated on fare with employers?
Is there anything "different" superficially that might make someone "wig
out" upon meeting an intersexed person? -- I apologize if this offends
anyone, my imagination is just baffled and all I can think of is circus
acts such as "the bearded lady" etc. Please correct my ignorance...
**********************************************************
* Therese Shellabarger - tls...@concentric.net *
* http://www.concentric.net/~tlshell/ Shalom tovarot! *
* XENA: http://www.concentric.net/~tlshell/xena.html *
**********************************************************
* See if I care about your opinion, the life I've led -- *
* each dawn I go forth with sword in hand, to sweep scum *
* from the decks of my battleship. Revenge at last, and *
* it be sweet, too, 'cuz now I get the girl, _not you_. *
**********************************************************
Finger: use tls...@finger.concentric.net
--
Stephanie Warrick
Piglet wrote in reply to Kira:
> How can I help? Does one write letters? And to whom? (NOW is already
> on the list.) I suppose there must be journals of pediatric medicine;
> where else would be appropriate?
Good question. I've been wondering about trying to persuade New Scientist to
do an article. I had some luck with them once before on a different issue,
one which also had political dimensions. I hasten to add that I don't have
any contacts: I just sent them an e-mail, they did their own research and
four weeks later an editorial and news item appeared. And it did have some
impact. But somehow I have a feeling I'll be told it's been tried already...
Stephanie
Kira Triea
Therese Roving Reporter writes:
...(Jillian)...
+------
| >Actually my thinking hadn't gone that far...... My question came up because
| >I want to know if I have a child who is born intersexed...am I going to be
| >informed of this and given the choice for surgery or will the doctors
| >make that decision for me? When I am attempting to educate myself on an
| >issue I like to start with "How could this effect me personally" and then
| >move on to "how does this effect the world globally?" So I really haven't
| >gotten anywhere near the global part as I am just beginning to undertstand
| >the personal..... that's all.
+---
...{ Roving)...
+---
|
| Interesting discussion, I don't know anyone in my family who might be
| intersexed so I can't comment from personal experience, but it makes
| sense to me to leave children to develop normally as long as there is no
| physiological malfunction, i.e. as long as everything "works."
+------
Cheryl Chase, ISNA exec. dir., has published what we (ISNA) feel to be
the optimum methodology for, for child and parents, for dealing with
the birth of an intersexed child.
http://www.isna.org/recommendations.html
Essentially, we feel that a childs intersexuality needs to be
acknowledged to avoid shame and stigma, surgery needs to be informed
and consented - hopefully w/ peer counseling, etc. Which sex to raise
a child can be addressed by trends in sex identity/gender profiles of
various intersex syndromes. It's not infallible... so the possibility
that this child might want to change things some should ne acknowleded
and discussed.
+------
| What I'm curious about though is, when it comes to finding jobs,
| etc. how do intersexed people who have *not* been operated on fare
| with employers? Is there anything "different" superficially that
| might make someone "wig out" upon meeting an intersexed person? -- I
| apologize if this offends anyone, my imagination is just baffled and
| all I can think of is circus acts such as "the bearded lady"
| etc. Please correct my ignorance...
+------
Ok. :-)
Firstly... genital surgery does not change physical presentation!
Firstly again... employers don't *usually* require an applicant to drop
their pants. The question of medical records and pre-employment exams
is pertinent though - I have been discussing this issue with a major
US company who seem to want to include IS in their revised EEO
language.
Secondly... you have probably met quite a few intersexed people in your
life, assuming you get out enough to have met 2000+ or so folks.
Instead of imagining, you may see some photos of Real Live
Hermaphrodites (TM) at:
http://www.qis.net/~triea/real.html and also
http://www.isna.org/isna-news.html#anchor6
---
Kira
guitar and vocals - Sex Kosmologie
--
Kira Triea
From: Stephanie Warrick <ucj...@ucl.ac.uk>
Stephanie writes:
+---
| Having said that, and in no way intending to contradict you, it's my
| impression that the surgery is actually underreported and
| underdiscussed in the literature, especially given that it is so
| frequently performed (approx. 1 in 2000 births, as you said).
+---
Actually... I was just trying to expand on what you had written,
although I expressed this I think a bit imprecisely. Yes... there
*are* write-ups - they always want to write up the "interesting cases"
(as well as show everyone). You are entirely correct though in that
there are no in depth studies, no extended followups,
... nothing. It's all "results were good for function and
appearance". The journal arguments are basically of the "look what we
made" variety or the "look at the interesting hermaphrodite" genre.
I want to write a journal article documenting studies of early trauma
resulting from surgery on neonates... as in the CI studies. This would
be in marked contrast to the lack of such study on intersexed children
who have been subjected to neonatal surgery. My isde ais that
pre-verbal surgery is just bad bad bad in all ways... not just genital
surgery.
+---
| I did a search for papers on cochlear implantation surgery, after
| reading Therese's post. In contrast to the CI literature, where the
| deaf community's strong opposition to surgery on infants gets *some*
| acknowledgement, however inadequate, and drives some research, the
| most striking thing about the papers I found on intersexed surgery is
| the absolute silence about the controversy.
+---
Unfortunately... yes. In the mind of most practitioners the controvery
does not even exist. We are trying quite hard to make noise and with
some effect, but not enough.
+---
| BTW, Kira, and Gabe, in case I give the slightest impression here or
| elsewhere I imagine I'm suggesting something new, I don't. I'm just
| thinking about issues which are new to me, and probably to many people
| reading this discussion.
+---
I welcome the feedback and your POV. I beat my brains out trying to
gain some insight into effectively doing something to try and stop
this but I am often against the wall. I do education when I can,
organize demos and do my bit to provide support and services for
intersexed people - I'm also writing a book. I rarely get any reaction
from *anyone* and even more rarely any positive feedback. I am good at
writing and even fascilitating actions... but very poor at attracting
attention or resources.
+---
| > These demonstrations are valuable but just one aspect of a
| > multi-facetted approach. Unfortunately we are spread a bit thin right
| > now.
|
| You're doing an incredible job, from what I've seen. I just hope that
| this discussion is helping to broaden your support.
+---
Absolutely. :-) I've been writing about intersex on the net since
early 1993 when I started writing about the outcome of the twin,
"john/joan", on sci.med - and also trying to locate other intersexed
people. This has been the only time that I have had a group of people
show much *real* interest and some in-depth understanding... as
opposed to prurient "facination" (I hate that word!) and even
fetishistic attraction for instance. It means a lot to me whenever
this happens because it not only gives us a chance to educate but also
helps me personally since I'm often on the verge of divorcing myself
from membership in the species.
Kira
Kira D. Triea
Stephanie wrote in reply to Piglet who wrote in reply to Kira:
...(Piglet)...
+---
| > How can I help? Does one write letters? And to whom? (NOW is already
| > on the list.) I suppose there must be journals of pediatric medicine;
| > where else would be appropriate?
+---
...(Stephanie)...
+---
| Good question. I've been wondering about trying to persuade New Scientist to
| do an article. I had some luck with them once before on a different issue,
| one which also had political dimensions. I hasten to add that I don't have
| any contacts| I just sent them an e-mail, they did their own research and
| four weeks later an editorial and news item appeared. And it did have some
| impact. But somehow I have a feeling I'll be told it's been tried already...
+---
I don't have any contacts either and am unskilled at convincing people
they should listen. I sometimes get attention from the sincerity of my
writing, for instance, the letter that Time published and some
others. I very much wish I was more "inside", with a degree or
something. I am writing a book and starting research on a journal
article... hoping to convince someone to co-author for
publication. Beyond that... we make as much noise as possible - demos,
letters to media, letters to academics and medical proffessionals, ,
web sites, and participation in online discussions like this one.
Since there seems to be interest in this subject amongst many people
here, perhaps the mods would agree to letting me, or Gabe, announce
any upcoming events - be they demos or actions of some other nature.
Currently there is an AAP upcoming in November and hopefully the next
demo would be at Hopkins... right here in B'more. *all* are welcome.
Kira - HWA/ISNA