freedom
Jessica Weiss
on the acceptance, tolerance and approval of
heterosexuals. They have said that if we have the
same rights as they do, they will have to find our
"lifestyle" acceptable. Some have used the words
"be tolerant."
That is bad enough. What is worse is when we
do this to one another, and do the same to
heterosexual allies.
No one reading this has the power to validate
or invalidate another person. And no one reading
this can be validated or invalidated by anyone else.
Our freedom to be who we are, love how we do,
is something we must take for ourselves. No one
has the power to give us what is not their's to give.
About a year ago, I tried to have this same discussion
with queers on a couple of listserves. I realized that
this is a very difficult concept to grasp, as we have
been fed the propaganda for so long that our freedom
is something held by others.
When I expressed how I see myself, I was attacked
at every turn. Yet the attacks did not change who
I am or how I see myself.
My grandparents were Jews who fled the antisemitism
in Europe. Many of my ancestors had been killed
in pogroms as Jews over the centuries. My maternal
ancestors fled the Inquisition from Italy to Russia.
Fifty years ago, my Hungarian cousins were killed
in nazi death prisons, as Jews.
I don't believe there are races but rather ethnic
groups. There are Jews living on every continent
in the world, and they are ethnically Jews, not
ethnically the peoples of the continent on which
they reside.
Therefore, I considered myself to be ethnically
Jewish, not Caucasian, and therefore, I am a person
of color. There are those who have said that
I get "white privilege," however, the minute a white
person realizes that I am a Jew, I get no privilege
at all. This realization comes pretty quickly when
people see me or hear my name. I have lived all
over America and other parts of the world, and
have found that this is true wherever I go.
I will not be at all surprised that there are those of you
reading this who disagree with me. However, your
opinion about me is irrelevant. Your opinion cannot
change the fact that I am ethnically Jewish, and that
I am in fact a person of color. You may think your
opinion is relevant to identifying me, but it is not.
When the Jewish pilgrims arrived in the "New World"
many did not read or write. When they were asked
to sign their names, they refused to write a "cross" but
rather wrote a "kikel" - the Yiddish word for circle. They
were then called kikes, which is now considered to be
a deregoratory word.
Just as today many lesbians, gays and bis, trans, and yes
hets have adapted the word "queer" to be a positive
powerful word, I have adapted the word Kike to be
powerful.
So I define myself as a Dyke Kike!!!.
Yes, many of you again might be disagreeing with me
here, just as the women in the Jewish listserve I
was on disagreed with me, and the people in the
queers of color listserve disagreed with me.
But your opinion cannot invalidate who or how I
think of myself. Your opinion cannot change the
history of my ancestors.
My freedom to be who I am is not your's to give to me,
but mine to take. I do not need anyone's approval,
acceptance or tolerance of who I am, any more than
anyone else here needs the approval, acceptance or
tolerance of the heterosexuals who believe that they
have rights to give to us.
Our rights are for the taking. That is how I live
my life.
With Liberty and Justice for All
Jessica Weiss
For A More Perfect Union
--
Soc.women.lesbian-and-bi is a moderated newsgroup. The moderation policy
is available at <http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~wjfraser/swlab/modpolicy.html>
and is posted weekly. Questions and concerns should be addressed to the
moderators at <swlab-...@panix.com>.
Ellen Evans
[]
>No one reading this has the power to validate
>or invalidate another person. And no one reading
>this can be validated or invalidated by anyone else.
And if you eat meat, you can't be a vegetarian.
HTH.
--
Ellen Evans 17 Across: The "her" of "Leave Her to Heaven"
je...@netcom.com New York Times, 7/14/96
T.Smith
> Therefore, I considered myself to be ethnically
> Jewish, not Caucasian, and therefore, I am a person
> of color.
And if I were to define *myself* as ethnically Jewish, even though
(as far as I know) no one in my entire family history is Jewish,
nor have they ever been taken to be Jewish, nor have they (again, as
far as I know) had any connection to a Jewish community, and I do not
in any way practice Judiasm, that would seem to you like a perfectly
okay and reasonable thing, and would in no way be a misuse of the
term Jewish and would not be offensive and insulting to people whose
background is actually Jewish, right?
--Terri
Susan J. King
>
>
>[snip]
> I do not need anyone's approval,
>acceptance or tolerance of who I am, any more than
>anyone else here needs the approval, acceptance or
>tolerance of the heterosexuals who believe that they
>have rights to give to us.
>
If you don't need anyone's approval, why do you keep posting all this
stuff to this ng?
--
Susan J. King
Lyngine Calizo
: My freedom to be who I am is not your's to give to me,
: but mine totake. I do not need anyone's approval,
: acceptance or tolerance of who Iam, any more than
: anyone else here needs the approval, acceptance or
:tolerance of the heterosexuals who believe that they
: have rights to giveto us.
it seems to me that by posting this you are perhaps looking for approval???
methinks the lady doth protest too much??? not that there's anything
wrong with needing some approval from someone somewhere but if you don't
care about whether the people here approve of you or your opinions why
bother making a big claim about it. why not just state your opinions
about a subject and be done with it------that's what a lot of the posters
here do and quite a number of them aren't much caring about whether or
not the rest of the group approves---they just post (i didn't say they
posted insensitively or unthinkingly necessarily mind you. i said they
posted their honest opinions and weren't worried about a popularity
contest or group approval). afterall, this is usenet and you are
effectively writing to a bunch of strangers who you may or may not ever
meet--approval, shmapproval---why should our opinions make a difference
to you or prevent you from being who you are? i would think that the
opinions of those close to you might have a greater impact in any
self-identity realm. i wouldn't worry about approval---just post and be
done with it. the conversation is far more interesting.
lyngine
inge
although you do not need my approval, your words made me feel proud of
you. For me its natural to love yourself, be yourself, be treated as
yourself and live your life, not that others want you to live.
i'm just curious whether you have, amongst all your travels, experienced
the same attitude in The Netherlands (where i'm from), as my experience
of my country is that this change in attitude when you "expose" yourself
does not really exist (please excuse my English, don't know better words
to express myself). I love myself, am certainly a happy girl, do not
need the approval of others but definately get the love (not necessarily
approval!) of any and all.
Stay who you are, you sound great!
Inge
inge
i sent a reply earlier but it doesn't seem to have reached this group.
It was just to say that i wholeheartedly (excuse my English, i'm Dutch)
agree with you. Nobody should be discriminated against, i think we all
agree to that.
My point is that the world would be so much better if we all lived to
the, for me one and only rule, "do not treat others as you do not want
to be treated" (have no idea how the official english saying goes...! -
literally translated from Dutch). So also in taking, you should not take
too much. There is no need to cross anybody's limits, even when they are
in your eyes narrow-minded, stupid or whatever. Understanding, of others
but most of all yourself, will bring you and everybody else much further
and can be a basis of mutual respect and tolerance.
i do not know whether you've ever been to the Netherlands, but if you
feel you still have to "take your rights" you should come over for a
couple of weeks to see that a tolerant society does exist; at least if
tolerant means "being able to being yourself in any respect". Some
people call it "neglecting", hence not real tolerance (and i agree with
them) but nevertheless, the need to "grab" or "take" your rights will
diminish as you will note that contents matter and not your colour, nose
or whatever. Of course, it's not perfect over here, but one of the
reasons this is a rather boring country is the fact that most people can
be whatever they want and are left in their own idiotery
Al
:I don't believe there are races but rather ethnic
:groups. There are Jews living on every continent
:in the world, and they are ethnically Jews, not
:ethnically the peoples of the continent on which
:they reside.
:
:Therefore, I considered myself to be ethnically
:Jewish, not Caucasian, and therefore, I am a person
:of color. There are those who have said that
:I get "white privilege," however, the minute a white
:person realizes that I am a Jew, I get no privilege
:at all. This realization comes pretty quickly when
:people see me or hear my name. I have lived all
:over America and other parts of the world, and
:have found that this is true wherever I go.
ummm...is it just me or do these two paragraphs completely contradict
each other? if there are "no races", why do you bother to define others
as "white" and especially to differentiate yourself from them? and aren't
you making a rather wide statement saying that anyone who "realizes that
you are a jew" treats you as inferior? true, jews are a minority in most
places, but quite often a very sizable minority; would you qualify say,
the amish as "people of color" because they're not mainstream? i really
fail to see what point you were making here and why do you contradict
yourself by first declaring that there are no races and then comparing
yourself to some "white people." (i'm part jewish, part russian, and if
anything, i've heard more positive than negative jewish stereotypes from
family and friends, who don't consider themselves to be a minority as much
as you make it out to be.)
-al
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code..."
--Unknown
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
al...@columbia.edu
http://www.columbia.edu/~al417
Al
:When the Jewish pilgrims arrived in the "New World"
:many did not read or write. When they were asked
:to sign their names, they refused to write a "cross" but
:rather wrote a "kikel" - the Yiddish word for circle. They
:were then called kikes, which is now considered to be
:a deregoratory word.
interesting...i've heard a different story of how the word was coined (but
i honestly have to say that i don't remember where, and therefore cannot
say which sounds more like the truth. anyone know out there?).
what i read somewhere is that the first wave of jews to hit america were
the western european jews, from germany, netherlands, etc. they had their
own businesses, were well off, and eventually established a positive image
of themselves in the states. the next generation that started coming in
were the eastern european jews, which were often starved, had large
families, and in general were not anywhere as "presentable." as a result,
the mainstream american community was put off by them, but the jews that
had already established themselves did not want to be associated with this
poor horde. in order to differentiate themselves from the eastern
european newcomers, they referred to them as "kikes", from their last
names that often ended in "-ski" or "-ki"--as opposed to their own german
sounding names. however, their effort didn't really succeed.
again, i can't truly validate this, but i know for sure i read it in a
book. does anyone else know the origin of this slur?
Paula Cobb
: Therefore, I considered myself to be ethnically
: Jewish, not Caucasian, and therefore, I am a person
: of color.
What color are you, blue? Being a person of color in the US
often means you are discriminated against. But that does not
mean that all people who are discriminated against are "people
of color". Jews are discriminated against because of their
ethnicicty/religion. Blacks are discriminated against, I think,
not for their ethnicity but for their SKIN COLOR. Both examples
are discrimination, both are wrong, both are hard to deal with.
So yes you have things in common. But you are not the same.
: With Liberty and Justice for All
: Jessica Weiss
: For A More Perfect Union
Your sig really bugs me.
--
pkc...@unix.amherst.edu
South End, Boston
Jessica Weiss
inge wrote:
> Dear Jessica,
>
> i'm just curious whether you have, amongst all your travels, experienced
> the same attitude in The Netherlands (where i'm from), as my experience
> of my country is that this change in attitude when you "expose" yourself
> does not really exist (please excuse my English, don't know better words
> to express myself). I love myself, am certainly a happy girl, do not
> need the approval of others but definately get the love (not necessarily
> approval!) of any and all.
>
I spent only about a week in Amsterdam in the early 1970s . I wentthere
thinking that I would find the freedom there I had heard about.
I had just spent months living and traveling in Europe, and was kind
of worn out at the time. But I believe I did see that freedom there.
Actually thinking back on this freedom, I did actually experience it.
I was looking for the post office and did not exactly know where I
was. A man approached me and offered me money for sex . I
was shocked, until I looked around, and saw the apartments with
the curtains drawn, and standing in the windows were scantily
clad women, and there were red lights shining in their windows.
Realizing that I was in the "red light " district (prostitituion being
legal),
I got away from this guy as fast as possible, amused at what had occurred.
I had had a similar experience just a few weeks before in Paris at
twilight. At least this was during the day.
So yes, I did experience the freedom of people in just a short time
in Amsterdam. As I went there looking for cheap drugs and did not
find any, I left (I have now been clean and sober for 14 years btw).
With Liberty and Justice for All
Jessica Weiss
For A More Perfect Union.
Jessica Weiss
> Jessica Weiss (tw9...@bestweb.net) wrote:
>
> : My freedom to be who I am is not your's to give to me,
> : but mine totake. I do not need anyone's approval,
> : acceptance or tolerance of who Iam, any more than
> : anyone else here needs the approval, acceptance or
> :tolerance of the heterosexuals who believe that they
> : have rights to giveto us.
> Lyngine Calizo wrote:
>
> it seems to me that by posting this you are perhaps looking for approval???
I am not talking about the approval of opinions, mine, your's or anyones
I am talking about none of us needing the approval, tolerance or acceptance
of the heterosupremacist theocrats who think that YOUR rights are dependent
on their approval of you.
Do you think that you need the oppressors to approve of you in order for
you to have the exact same rights that they do? Do you think that they
are actually superior to you, and that it is their superiority that gives
them the right to decide what rights you will or will not have. They
believe that.
This is why this is an important issue. It is only when we realize
that who we are, how we love, what we think, how we self-identify
is all that matters. Who YOU are cannot be invalidated by anyone's
opinion. Our opinions about one another is IRRELEVANT to
our freedom.
> SKIP....
Since my post was about FREEDOM for us all, I skipped the personalstuff, as it
was irrelevant to what I was saying.
It is only when we stop thinking that we need others approval, acceptance
or tolerance, and start TAKING our rights, will we all be free. But first
we must stop thinking that our opinions, acceptance, approval or tolerance
of others is relevant. Once we stop thinking that other peoples freedom
is dependent on what we think about one other, will we stop thinking
that our freedom is based on the acceptance, tolerance or approval of
others.
This is not about ME, and what I think or don't think. I happen to
believe in freedom by every means necessary, and I mean EVERY
means, including your opinion about what you think will work,
and if upon implementation of your idea, FREEDOM occurs, I
am all for it.
Freedom is more important than individual opinions
or egos, including mine.
With Liberty and Justice for ALL
Jessica Weiss
For A More Perfect Union
by Every Means Necessary
Ellen Evans
[]
>I am talking about none of us needing the approval, tolerance or acceptance
>of the heterosupremacist theocrats who think that YOUR rights are dependent
>on their approval of you.
Is anyone else getting a k*ngs*x hit off of this?
--
Ellen Evans 17 Across: The "her" of "Leave Her to Heaven"
je...@netcom.com New York Times, 7/14/96
--
Ayana Craven
>>
>> it seems to me that by posting this you are perhaps looking for approval???
>
>I am not talking about the approval of opinions, mine, your's or anyones
>
>of the heterosupremacist theocrats who think that YOUR rights are dependent
>on their approval of you.
Well, you're repeating yourself enough times that you are obviously
looking for *something* you aren't getting. And approval looks
pretty high on the list, right after attention.
Ayana, not-a-mod
--
"From the place where I stand watching
I swear my ship is coming in!"
-- Nanci Griffith
Gwendolyn Alden Dean
> with queers on a couple of listserves. I realized that
> this is a very difficult concept to grasp, as we have
> been fed the propaganda for so long that our freedom
> is something held by others.
> When I expressed how I see myself, I was attacked
> at every turn. Yet the attacks did not change who
> I am or how I see myself.
The responses you received on at least one of those listserves had to do
with your incredibly irritating style of expression and sketchy idea of
information. You may have a couple of interesting ideas somewhere in the
barrage of words you dump but it's impossible to have reasonable
discussions with you while you're posturing as the Great Queer Messiah
with Big Important Thoughts No one Ever Had Before.
Lyngine Calizo
: I am not talking about the approval of opinions, mine, your's or anyones
: I am talking about none of us needing the approval, tolerance or acceptance
: of the heterosupremacist theocrats who think that YOUR rights are dependent
: on their approval of you.
: Do you think that you need the oppressors to approve of you in order for
: you to have the exact same rights that they do? Do you think that they
: are actually superior to you, and that it is their superiority that gives
: them the right to decide what rights you will or will not have. They
: believe that.
there are several issues here that need to clarified. first, there's the
idea of RIGHTS---i believe that there are certain rights which all human
beings are entitled to regardless. so in this case to say that all human
beings have rights is to speak about it in the abstract---what human
beings ought to have and what they should have. this is however a separate
idea from whether or not human beings get to exercise these rights and
how that comes about. so for an example that someone has already brought up..
1) i believe that human beings have a right to marry whomever they choose
if they make that choice freely and are of an appropriate age (no matter how
many people, what genders, whatever). this is not an abstract
marriage---we're taking full legal recognition and responsiblities here.
2) do i need the approval of the people in power to get this? well, i may
not need the approval of all the people in power, but i do have to
convince quite a few people with a significant amount of power that some
injustice is being done and should be changed and that the current laws
are unfair. this is not the same as grovelling for approval---i can
convince them by demanding access to my rights without compromising
myself or becoming whatever they want me to be----demonstrations, letter
writing, etc etc etc. but if i do not or can not convince enough people
with power that my rights are being infringed upon then no amount of my
saying "i have rights even if you don't approve of me" will win me access
to those rights within a legally recognized framework (this is not an
insignificant point--consider people who have lost jobs or are denied
access to loved ones because of lack of legal protection or recognition).
this doesn't invalidate the fact that i have rights, it just means that
i'm not going to have access to them.
3) no i don't believe that the people in power are superior and that this
allows them to decide my rights. people in power decide what rights i
have legal access to because as duly elected officials of
this country (i'm a citizen of the usa) i have given them the power to
do so either by voting or by participating in a system where the citizens
agree to go along with the results of an election even if the candidate
they voted for doesn't win (as opposed to starting an armed revolution if
your candidate doesn't win). unless you live in a country where
democracy of some sort is not practiced then this is the case----the
government is in power by the will of the people which means that the
people (i.e. you, me, random person on the street) choose their
government and give them the power to make laws, etc etc, and if you
disagree with the government you speak up or kick the bums out of office.
while it is personally empowering to realize that one does not need
approval from any party to be oneself, if one is speaking of rights in
any sort of meaningful way then i don't think one can do any thing
effective unless you get beyond "i have rights because i say so and the
people in power are oppressors who are wrong and nothing they can do can
take these rights away."---because quite frankly that's wrong. people in
power can and do take away access to certain rights and while recognizing
that one has those rights is important, it gets old really fast if one
can not exercise those rights or does not fight for them in some way.
personal empowerment is great. personal empowerment turned to political
action is stunning.
lyngine
Dark Phoenix
> On 24 Jul 1998, Jessica Weiss wrote:
>
> :When the Jewish pilgrims arrived in the "New World"
> :many did not read or write. When they were asked
> :to sign their names, they refused to write a "cross" but
> :rather wrote a "kikel" - the Yiddish word for circle. They
> :were then called kikes, which is now considered to be
> :a deregoratory word.
>
> interesting...i've heard a different story of how the word was coined (but
> i honestly have to say that i don't remember where, and therefore cannot
> say which sounds more like the truth. anyone know out there?).
This is the story that I've always heard, and that historically, Jews
refused to sign their names with crosses (because of xtianity) but would
instead sign with circles, yes.
-- Ali.
--
Ali Lemer -=- ali at panix dot com -=-=- http://www.panix.com/~ali-=-
GL/PA d-->--- s-: a- C+++$>++++ USC+(++)$ P+ L E+$>+++ W++$>+++ N++$ o+ K+++ w---$ !O M++$ V? PS+++ PE@ Y+ PGP t+@ !5 X++ R* tv+@ b+++$>++++ DI+@ D+ G++>+++ e++>+++ h--- r++ x++*
Sport
Jessica--
Are you suggesting that there is one single Jewish ethnicity?
If so, then would you agree that there are distinctly different Jewish
cultures? Ella Shohat is one of a growing number of non-Euro descent
Jews who is fighting against the invisibility of non-Euro Jews,
particularly, in the U.S., where Yiddish language and culture are
automatically elided with some sort of empirical Jewishness. Shohat
reminds her readers that for Middle Eastern Jews (from Arab nations
and cultures) and Ethiopian Jews so much of the language and culture
that is associated with Jewishness in the western world is unfamiliar.
--Sport
peg boucher murphy
>In article <1.f56...@panix.com>, Jessica Weiss <tw9...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>>I am talking about none of us needing the approval, tolerance or acceptance
>>of the heterosupremacist theocrats who think that YOUR rights are dependent
>>on their approval of you.
>
*that's* why this was sounding so familiar!
thanks, ellen.
peg
maxine witcher
and find that if i just do what i feel, like hold my gf's hand or kiss
her..then i am giving myself the power...and i am indeed thankful that i
have met with no bashing...i decided that even if i am the unfortunate
recipient of somene's hate or ignorance that it is my responsibility to
the future to continue to educate people by my everyday example...saying
it proudly in words and actions...i am a lesbian...and you cannot make
me hide...i, too am jewish on my father's side and am wondering how to
research this and integrate it into my being as it is not something i
have learned much about...perhaps that is tomorrow's struggle...
Angst Girl
> Our freedom to be who we are, love how we do,
> is something we must take for ourselves. No one
> has the power to give us what is not their's to give.
The freedom to be who we are and the idiocy of calling ourselves something
that we are not are two different things.
Jills
--
What the heart has once owned it shall never lose.
-The Names Project/The Quilt (circa 1989)
Jills is at http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jgreff