I'm questioning and I would like some kind soul to help me

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Michelle Steiner

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Jan 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/11/97
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In article <5b9ojf$16o...@host.domain>, mind...@worldnet.att.net (Darren)
wrote:

>I've I've given it much thought and gotten more
>questions than answers. What's HRT and SRS? What is it like after the
>change? How do I know if it is right and that I'll be comfortable with it
>afterwards? Does sexuality preference change? What about acceptance? Age?
>How much of an effect does it have on your personality? I'm looking for
>answers, help, friendship, understanding.

Hello, Darren. <sigh> I recall having some of those same questions not
really that long ago. So, to take them in order,

HRT is Hormone Replacement Therapy. SRS is Sexual Reassignment Surgery.
Other acronyms you'll encounter are SOC (Standards of Care), HBIGDA (Harry
Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association--the organization that
wrote the SOC), and RLT (Real Life Test; more on this later).

What is it like after the change? Well, that is not answerable; it's
different for everyone. One thing that seems to be common, though, is a
feeling of rightness. Also, "the change" is different for different
people--for some, it comes at the start of HRT; for others, when they start
to live full time in their appropriate gender; and for yet others, not
until they complete SRS.

Does sexuality preference change? Yes and no. Orientation may remain
straight (in which case you are a heterosexual woman, assuming that you
were a heterosexual man), or the object of your orientation may remain (in
which case you are a lesbian)--or you might wind up bisexual. The term
"sexual orientation" is almost meaningless for a transsexual--especially
one in transition.

What about acceptance? Age? Acceptance runs the gamut from full and open
to complete rejection. It's normally not anything you have an control
over, but you can influence it somewhat by educating your friends, family,
acquaintances, and business associates.

How much of an effect does it have on your personality? Again, this varies
with the person. I've been told that I'm more mellow than before, and a
much nicer person.

Unfortunately, there are so many variables that most of your questions
don't have any firm answers. Now, on to the biggie:

How do I know if it is right and that I'll be comfortable with it afterwards?

Right now, you don't. That's why the SOC was established--to help you find
out. Find a good therapist, especially one who is familiar with issues
regarding gender identity disorder (GID--whoops; there's another TLA), and
one who knows about the HBIGDA SOA and accepts them as guidelines. IMO,
and some people may disagree with me, finding a good therapist is more
important than one who has the experience with GID. A good therapist can
always learn them, consult with those who have more knowledge than she
does, etc. A bad therapist is a bad therapist, no matter what she knows.
When the time comes, start hormones, and start electrology if needed. If
you find that you can put up with pain of electrology, that's a good sign.
If you find that you don't mind, or even welcome, the changes that the
hormones make in your body, that's a good sign. Finally, when you feel
ready, start the RLT. You'll quickly learn whether living and being
perceived and treated as a woman is natural.

I hope that I've managed to answer some of your questions--I've probably
caused you to think of more of them, too.

--Michelle


------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Michelle Steiner | First say to yourself what you would |
| ste...@best.com | be; and then do what you have to do. |
| http://www.best.com/~steiner | --Epictetus (55 - 135 CE) |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Darren

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Jan 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/12/97
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I dunno. It's so hard for me to say my feelings. For almost as I have been
aware of my own sexuality I have also had feeling of great envy for women.
Until my recent discovery of transsexuality I've had to accept it and just
another mistake nature made when I was concieved. Everyone I've known
for a long time has said that since I was about 12 or 13 I've been more
feminine that other males my age. The only resolution I've come up with
is that I have very little understanding of what it takes. I understand the
gravity of this subject and the permanent changes that it may result in but
beyond that I'm lost. I've I've given it much thought and gotten more
questions than answers. What's HRT and SRS? What is it like after the
change? How do I know if it is right and that I'll be comfortable with it
afterwards? Does sexuality preference change? What about acceptance? Age?
How much of an effect does it have on your personality? I'm looking for
answers, help, friendship, understanding.

Please help me
Thanks,
Darren

Insert meaningless drivel here:

Darren

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Jan 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/12/97
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You're right, it does give me more questions to think about. Electrology
is the same as eltrolosis right? I've had electrolosis done to remove
stray hairs before and didn't mind the pain. For me the RLT would be
tough, I'm not very feminine looking and my body structure is quite
masculine (I'm 6'2" 265 and am built like a football player). When does
the RLT take place and how old do I have to be?

In article <steiner-ya0240800...@nntp.best.com>,

ste...@best.com (Michelle Steiner) wrote:
>In article <5b9ojf$16o...@host.domain>, mind...@worldnet.att.net (Darren)
>wrote:
>

>>I've I've given it much thought and gotten more
>>questions than answers. What's HRT and SRS? What is it like after the
>>change? How do I know if it is right and that I'll be comfortable with it
>>afterwards? Does sexuality preference change? What about acceptance? Age?
>>How much of an effect does it have on your personality? I'm looking for
>>answers, help, friendship, understanding.
>

>How do I know if it is right and that I'll be comfortable with it afterwards?
>

>Right now, you don't. That's why the SOC was established--to help you find
>out. Find a good therapist, especially one who is familiar with issues
>regarding gender identity disorder (GID--whoops; there's another TLA), and
>one who knows about the HBIGDA SOA and accepts them as guidelines. IMO,
>and some people may disagree with me, finding a good therapist is more
>important than one who has the experience with GID. A good therapist can
>always learn them, consult with those who have more knowledge than she
>does, etc. A bad therapist is a bad therapist, no matter what she knows.
>When the time comes, start hormones, and start electrology if needed. If
>you find that you can put up with pain of electrology, that's a good sign.
>If you find that you don't mind, or even welcome, the changes that the
>hormones make in your body, that's a good sign. Finally, when you feel
>ready, start the RLT. You'll quickly learn whether living and being
>perceived and treated as a woman is natural.
>
>I hope that I've managed to answer some of your questions--I've probably
>caused you to think of more of them, too.
>
>--Michelle
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>| Michelle Steiner | First say to yourself what you would |
>| ste...@best.com | be; and then do what you have to do. |
>| http://www.best.com/~steiner | --Epictetus (55 - 135 CE) |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

Insert meaningless drivel here:

Darren

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Jan 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/12/97
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Why are almost all of the regular posters female? Aren't there any F to M
TG?

Insert meaningless drivel here:

Michelle Steiner

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Jan 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/12/97
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In article <5ba09f$2g0...@host.domain>, mind...@worldnet.att.net (Darren)
wrote:

>You're right, it does give me more questions to think about. Electrology
>is the same as eltrolosis right? I've had electrolosis done to remove
>stray hairs before and didn't mind the pain.

Right; they're the same thing. Keep in mind that you're in for some
150-400+ hours of it, depending on how thick your beard is, and how
tenacious it is. Some people have as little as one hour a week, and some
have four-hour sessions once or twice a week. It depends on your pain
tolerance, your time constraints, and your financial ability.

>For me the RLT would be
>tough, I'm not very feminine looking and my body structure is quite
>masculine (I'm 6'2" 265 and am built like a football player). When does
>the RLT take place and how old do I have to be?

RLT takes place when you feel that it should. Definitely don't let
yourself be pushed into it unless you feel ready for it. If your therapist
thinks your're going to fast or are being premature in it s/he will tell
you, and you can discuss it with her. In the end, though, it's you who
decides. There is no age limit. I know a 14-year-old who started RLT at
the beginning of the ninth grade. There are people who started it in their
40s and 50s.

Size and build have some affect, but I've known TS women as tall as 6'8"
with large bone structures. I have a few TS friends who are in the 6'3" to
6'4" range. Sure, it may make it a bit harder, but it doesn't make it
impossible.

Cris Brown

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Jan 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/13/97
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Cris here. :)

[Darren writes:]


>I dunno. It's so hard for me to say my feelings. For almost as
>I have been aware of my own sexuality I have also had feeling of
>great envy for women. Until my recent discovery of transsexuality
>I've had to accept it and just another mistake nature made when I
>was concieved. Everyone I've known for a long time has said that
>since I was about 12 or 13 I've been more feminine that other males
>my age. The only resolution I've come up with is that I have very
>little understanding of what it takes. I understand the gravity of
>this subject and the permanent changes that it may result in but

>beyond that I'm lost. I've I've given it much thought and gotten
>more questions than answers.

Other folks will have already answered your specific questions, but
I'm sensing a larger question lurking in the background: "Am I a TS?"

From what you've written here, you're definitely not at the masculine
end of the gender continuum. But knowing where you're *not* doesn't
answer the question of where you *are* or, more precisely, where you
would be most comfortable. That may be at the feminine end of the
gender continuum -- i.e.: living full-time as a woman, with matching
anatomy (TS) -- or it may be somewhere in the middle (some variety of
TG). A major part of the transition process is devoted to exploring
yourself and trying to find out these things.

A therapist may be able to help you with this, but most of it is a
matter of spending time with yourself, listening to your wants, hopes,
needs, and interests. If you find yourself having to sacrifice things
you want, hope, need, or enjoy to live in "your" gender, then that's
not *your* gender. Yes, sometimes we have conflicting wants, hopes,
needs, and interests. And then you have to find priorities and make
choices. But if transition is about finding a way to express the real
you -- *all* that you are -- then the gender role you finally settle
into ought to allow you to *be* all that you are.

Listen to yourself, Darren. Be true to yourself, and you'll find the
gender identity that's right for you.

Cris
"Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground."
-- Anonymous


rose...@aol.com

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
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In article <5bhf5e$rs_...@host.domain>, mind...@worldnet.att.net (Darren)
writes:

>I'm definitely a questioning transsexual. Now only if I could figure out

>the rest of me.

Dear Darren,

If you are questioning, it is important to find the right question. "What
am I?" never did that much for me. As soon as I asked, "Who do I belong
with?" everything fell into place.

All fortune in finding YOUR question -- Rose

If reality wants to reach me, it knows where I am.

S Martin

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
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In article <32DAE169...@tab.com>, Julie Haugh <j...@tab.com> says:

>
>Darren wrote:
>>
>> Why are almost all of the regular posters female? Aren't there any F to M
>> TG?
>
>Because we rule the world. Get used to it, you male worm.
>
>Prolly the best reason is that we grow up male and get all the really
>good computer jobs, while F2Ms grow up female and wind up working as
>construction workers.
>
><smile>
>
Naa, it's just that FtMs are ever so chatty, while the guys lurk and once
in a while post 3 liners if they aren't so busy with rec.trucks.monster that
they quit reading here <G>
-Stephany M.

Darren

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
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In article <5bjcs1$11k...@host.domain>, mind...@worldnet.att.net (Darren) wrote:
>In article <19970115143...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, rose...@aol.com
>Y'ever wish you could just change yourself instantly on a temporary basis
>to see what is would be like before your the change permanent?
>
>Insert meaningless drivel here:
What have I been smokin'? That was so full of mistakes even I had to read
it twice. Here's what I meant to say:

Ever wish you could change yourself temporarily and instantaneously to see
what it would be like before you made the changes permanent?

Insert meaningless drivel here:

Darren

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
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GoSpangs

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
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<< Naa, it's just that FtMs are ever so chatty, while the guys lurk and
once
in a while post 3 liners if they aren't so busy with rec.trucks.monster
that
they quit reading here <G>
-Stephany M.>>

I take umbrage to this stereotype. Jules and I have posted a hell of
alot more than three lines and I think monster trucks are stupid. If any
of you wanna refer to me as a "male worm," get off your chicken femmy
butt, come out here to visit and tell me to my face.

Auden

_______________________________________________________
"To question my behavior is to deny your own." -Holly A. Burnham
*`*`* Out Proud = Out Loud *`*`*
Gender Punk. Gender Anarchy. Gender Terrorism.
Neutrois Revolution! GoSp...@aol.com

Parker J. Davis

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
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S Martin wrote:
> In article <32DAE169...@tab.com>, Julie Haugh <j...@tab.com> says:
> >Darren wrote:
> >> Why are almost all of the regular posters female? Aren't there any F to M TG?
> >
> >Because we rule the world. Get used to it, you male worm.
> >
> >Prolly the best reason is that we grow up male and get all the really
> >good computer jobs, while F2Ms grow up female and wind up working as
> >construction workers.
> >
> More seriously, there is one thing: FtMs can do everything up to crossliving
> without even thinking themselves transgendered. I know that a
> close friend of mine never thought herself at all transgendered until she
> became involved in my "journey" -

I've been thinking about this question and then this showed up in my
mailbox. I wasn't going to post it at first, fearing it would stir up
divisiveness, but then the subject came up and I think Jesse Xavier got
to the heart of a lot of the true answer to this question. I hope you'll
read it with open minds:

In Passing...


"I am a transsexual man, and in my opinion that's a different
gender
from what people
commonly think of as 'man' ."
- David Harrison, SF Weekly,
October
25, 1995


If you're transgendered, you live in a world I like to call the
disuninverse, because compared
to the outside world, it's a disunified, inverse universe. Our disunity
comes from the contention
that arises from the over-importance we transgendered people place on
our
myriad differences.
Over time, these differences have become walls that keep the different
out
of our respective
spaces. Some of these finding-fault lines occur between crossdressers
and
transsexuals; gay,
bisexual and straight people; out and closeted folks; white and
nonwhite;
those economically
privileged and those who are not; and M2Fs and F2Ms. These differences
wreck havoc on our
fledgling attempts to build a real community and to organize a political
movement for it. Thus
far, we have chosen to view those friendships, cliques, conventions and
organizations which
dominate the social and political landscape as the transgendered
"community". However, in
reality we manage to break most of the most widely accepted rules for
what
constitutes a true
community. Still, for lack of a more accurate term, we call it our
community. As if.


The inverse nature of our disuninverse comes from some things that
are
backward with us.
Here the M2Fs, the women, rule the roost. We have used our born-male
privilege and the perks
that come with it, like access to education, training and "old boy
networks", to gain positions of
economic power. We run almost all of the support groups, control six
out
of seven of the largest
national organizations (FTM International is the lone exception) and
thus
decide how the bulk
of the money is spent and how resources are allocated. Most of us M2Fs
subconsciously cling
to our former male privilege and act accordingly, out of some superior
sense of entitlement. That
is what drives feminist women crazy when unthinking transsexual women,
unaware of this
antagonism, enter their space.


And it also disturbs many, if not most, of the transgendered men, the
F2Ms. The transmen
have been underground for many years for various reasons, and only
recently
are they coming
out in any significant numbers. Almost all of them come from the
lesbian
community, so unlike
the mostly heterosexual M2Fs they bring an initial queer identity with
them
when they come out
as transgendered. Moreover, most of them are feminist and thus have
great
difficulty dealing
with the entrenched male privilege they find, especially that of M2F
leaders at all levels of the
transgendered community. Although F2Ms are usually welcomed by M2F
leaders
at the
meetings and conventions of the national organizations, there has been a
perception by many
F2Ms that there is an overall unwillingness on the part of M2F leaders
to
share power equally
with them. Ben Singer of Rutgers University has gone so far to call
this
M2F power-over
situation a hegemony.


In keeping with the inverse nature of the transgendered community,
its
the transmen who have
custody of their children, and thus have to deal with the myriad
concerns
of child care and day
care in order to work, on top of being transgendered. Almost all F2Ms
come
from economic
positions of less than, since they have lived most of their lives
without
born-male privilege. Since
it is still harder for women to be accepted in many traditional male
occupations, most F2Ms have
not had access to training in these fields and have not acquired the
skills
to do high-paying,
traditionally male jobs. Without a male socialization experience from
birth, all of them lack entry
points into established old boy networks. Indeed, the reddest herring
in
the F2M community is
that transmen are suddenly blessed with instant economic privilege the
moment they transition,
when in truth, it takes a lifetime to gain it. And a poorer economic
status has serious
consequences for the transmen who want surgery, because it is much more
expensive that M2F
surgery, with much less satisfying results.


Typical genital surgery for an M2F transsexual is $13,000. Some may
want tracheal shaves,
breast augmentation, hair transplantation, craniomaxial (facial) or
other
cosmetic surgeries, but
those are usually optional. But a transman starts with a hysterectomy
and
bilateral
oophorectomy (removal of the ovaries) that takes him six weeks to
recover
from and can cost
$5,000 to $10,000 depending on whether he can get insurance coverage.
And
there is usually
no insurance coverage for anything after that. The top surgery (double
mastectomy with chest
wall reconstruction) can cost $5-$50k depending on the surgeon. And the
bottom surgeries
(metaoiodioplasty, scrotoplasty, phalloplasty, urethroplasty) can cost
up
to $150,000 and must
be done in stages with multiple procedures, delicate aftercare, long
healing times, and often poor
results. Some guys have experienced physical, financial and emotional
nightmares over their
bottom surgeries, simply because only a few surgeons have cared to do
F2M
surgery.


If what you're reading surprises you, its probably because you
personally don't know any
transmen, because most of them don't come to our M2F support group
meetings. Why? Well,
its not that we're unfriendly (sometimes, we're too friendly). Some
transmen do go to MAGIC
meetings for their family issues, and even TGEA has seen a few stone
butches or F2M
crossdressers. A few of us have some good friends in the F2M community,
and some of the
guys like to come to our meetings as a social event. Hopefully, some of
you remember your
former Outreach Director before me, Mr. Kitt Kling.


But the real reason we see so few of them at our meetings is that
their
needs, issues and
concerns are so very different from our own. Unfortunately, here in the
disuninverse, like in the
outside universe, men are very different from women. In the outside
universe, women are from
Venus and men are from Mars. In the disuninverse, we're not necessary
planets apart, but
perhaps we do live in opposite polar regions of the same world. The
basic
concern of almost
all M2F groups, whether predominantly CD or TS, is a passing appearance.
Most of us are big,
tall, bearded and/or balding, and passing is our most basic issue. It's
not just the thrill of being
accepted as we truly are - it's our personal safety and our ability to
live
successfully full-time as
well. But after the initialization of testosterone, most transmen begin
to
pass much sooner than
we transwomen do on estrogen. Their voice usually drops rather quickly,
they get facial and
body hair, and they begin to build muscles. So they are not as obsessed
with passing as we
are. And no, none of the guys I've met like watching football or
drinking
beer. They are their
own men, not stereotypes.


And when some of the guys come to our meetings, they get hit on a
lot.
Really. I didn't want
to believe this when I heard it, but I've heard it so often from many
transmen, it must be true.
One transman I know stopped coming to meetings altogether when one
transwoman persisted
in her advances to the point of sitting on his lap. That was more than
rude - it was presumptive.
What made her think the transman was straight, let alone attracted to
her?
It's as if some of us
M2Fs think, "At last! A man who understands me." Well, before my
transition, I was hit on by
women to whom I wasn't attracted, and it made me feel very
uncomfortable.
Moreover, most
M2F support groups I know of explicitly mention a nonsexual policy in
their
mission statements
or bylaws. Still, the actual responsibility for carrying these policies
out belongs to each and
every member. In order for us to create safe space for everyone who
attends our meetings, the
place for that type of socializing must be outside of them. And even
then,
ladies, please try to
remember to let the men make the first move - it's their prerogative.
Then
you can decide to
respond or not - that's your prerogative.


As F2Ms begin the painful process of organizing themselves, they are
not
without problems
of their own origin. Theirs is an emerging community within an existing
community, bursting forth
with new organizational and personal rivalries, with turf battles and
competition for what little
money, resources and attention there is. Thus far, the transmen have
dominated, and the F2M
crossdressers (yes, they do exist), drag kings, stone butches, passing
women, boychicks and
others often do not get their needs met, let alone addressed. And in
spite
of their passing
advantages, the transmen have their own problems adjusting to a harsh,
competitive patriarchal
system that punishes all men in so many vicious ways for being less
than.


But there are also helpful, hopeful signs. New organizations have
followed in the trailblazing
path of FTM International, founded by the late Lou Sullivan and now led
by
Jamison Green. And
a host of new leaders have burst upon the scene. Stephen Whittle of
Press
For Change in
England. Gary Bowen and Kitt Kling of The American Boyz. Tony
Barreto-Neto
of TOPS
(Transgendered Officers Protect and Serve) and GenderPAC. Julian
Leonard
and Ken Morris
of the TransMale Task Force. Jules Russell of the Transgender Health
Action Coalition (THAC).
Ben Singer at Rutgers and Henry Rubin at Harvard. Marcus Arana of San
Francisco's CUAV
(Community United Against Violence) and FTM International. Jess Marlow
of
the Deaf
Transgender Association. And Shannon Minter and Spencer Bergstedt, both
attorneys, have
joined the board of the Transgender Law Conference (ICTLEP). It is my
hope
that these fine
men will lead their half into full inclusion and participation with the
M2F
half of our community.


What can we do to welcome our F2M brothers? It depends. Do we M2Fs
want a real
community? Do we want to share our resources, our money and our power,
rather than hoard
them for our own needs? Do we want a real community that includes all
of
us, rather than just
the usual M2F agendas in our support and social groups? If so, do we
want
that real community
to have an accurate public face that reflects both points of departure
(born-male and born-
female) rather than the usually expected and
getting-more-boring-every-minute M2F depictions
in the media and in our public outreach efforts? Do we want a fully
representative political
component of the transgendered movement? (This is one exhausted
transwoman
activist who
is certainly ready for the transmen to take that over!)


Can we M2Fs get over our atavistic, maleborn need to control and run
everything, or will we
lazily stick to our old, bad ways? Can we pay more than lip service to
feminism, and let the less
empowered have their say and sway? Can all of us, M2Fs and F2Ms alike,
come to embrace
a transgender ideal that loves each and every one of us for who we
really
are, rather than pick
each other apart for whatever differences we perceive and personal
deficits
we ourselves
possess? Can we stop this "community" from flying apart into two or
more
separate pieces?
Should we even bother, when our own lives often become unmanageable?


It all depends on so many things, and on each and every one of us.
If
you answered in the
affirmative to the preceding questions, perhaps you are ready. I know I
am. When enough of
us are ready, perhaps we can jointly undertake a commitment for true
community, a pledge that
has eluded our pseudocommunity thus far. Through much hardship we have
triumphed over
enormous adversity to change so much about our selves. Can we now go
further, and reinvent
our own community as well? I hope so. Will you join me in taking the
painful but essential first
steps, and begin the inevitable and inescapable learning process? Then
I'll look for you at the
first True Spirit Conference next month!


- Jessica Xavier

Darren

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
to

In article <5bcei0$8...@mercury.IntNet.net>, nsb...@IntNet.net (Cris Brown) wrote:
>Listen to yourself, Darren. Be true to yourself, and you'll find the
>gender identity that's right for you.

Over the past week I've hung out here and meditated on the topic of
transexuality during most of my spare time. I have come up with a
resolution then shoot it down with another thought. I've explored my
feelings deep within. This is what I've come up with:

I'm definitely a questioning transsexual. Now only if I could figure out
the rest of me.

Insert meaningless drivel here:

S Martin

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Jan 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/15/97
to

In article <32DAE169...@tab.com>, Julie Haugh <j...@tab.com> says:
>
>Darren wrote:
>>
>> Why are almost all of the regular posters female? Aren't there any F to M
>> TG?
>
>Because we rule the world. Get used to it, you male worm.
>
>Prolly the best reason is that we grow up male and get all the really
>good computer jobs, while F2Ms grow up female and wind up working as
>construction workers.
>
More seriously, there is one thing: FtMs can do everything up to crossliving
without even thinking themselves transgendered. I know that a
close friend of mine never thought herself at all transgendered until she
became involved in my "journey" - and she dresses like a guy most of the
time (she has gotten comments on it - she's a grunge holdout) and
socializes with guys for the most part - especially gay men. Any MtF
would have twigged by that point!
She did admit that she does have a TG side, after seeing me, more
extreme, and similar in an opposite-gendered way.
-Stephany M.

Vicki

unread,
Jan 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/16/97
to

Dear Jessica Xavier,

Pardon the lack of quotebacks, but your article was too long.
I applaud and support your sentiments although I think M2F are
uncomfortable with F2M for some other basic reasons than male
chauvanism. After all, we no longer are under the influence of
testosterone, and so the advantage should go to them even if we have
greater numbers.
My basic discomfort is that for me it has been a lifelong dream to be
female, an ideal, a goal, something that I've wanted since I was first
aware of myself and my differences. In the deepest recesses of my
psychic, the idea of wanting to be male is repulsive and on a gut level
I can't help but feel uncomfortable with the F2M objectives. Of course,
I hope I am a better person than that. I hope I can at least try to
accept that they have a right to their own needs. It is simply something
that I must try to be open minded about just as straight people have to
be open minded about transgendered and gay people in general.
Nevertheless, I'm sure that this basic discomfort makes it difficult to
be completely open with the F2Ms.
I applaud your condemnation of the M2F hitting on the F2Ms. I have
witnessed this and after reading your port, I am ashamed to say that I
was one to stand back and watch. It is very unfair, although one wishes
that F2Ms were more accommodating. But nothing is every easy or all of
us would find instant happiness.

Vicki

Darren

unread,
Jan 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/17/97
to

In article <19970115204...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, gosp...@aol.com (GoSpangs) wrote:
> I take umbrage to this stereotype. Jules and I have posted a hell of
>alot more than three lines and I think monster trucks are stupid. If any
>of you wanna refer to me as a "male worm," get off your chicken femmy
>butt, come out here to visit and tell me to my face.
They might if they knew where "out here" was.

File not found

GoSpangs

unread,
Jan 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/17/97
to

Dear Group,

I think the whole FTM as male chauvinist concept is bulls**t. I'm
very angry with the group for being called a 'male worm' for simply
transing out of the female gender. I'm transing out because I'm not a
woman and being forced to live like a 'girly-girly-girly girl,' simply on
the basis of physical signifiers, nauseates me. I HATE being female
because it's a social dymaic that I can't stand. I'm NOT a chauvinist. I
am familiar with what women still have to go through, whether they're
genetic or not, and I (up to this point) have incorporated feminism in my
Gender Anarchy. I personally think that feminine expectations aren't
normal or natural, and those of us, GW/TGw/TSw, who don't wish to live
like that, shouldn't have to. THERE.. that's my stance on femininity vs.
feminism. Did the person making the worm remark take that into
consideration? NO. She called us (FTM/Ns) ALL male worms. I'm very angry
about being likened to the very people who beat and sexually assaulted me
while I was growing up because:
1) "All dykes deserve it" (I'm not a dyke, I'm a neutrois transsexual).
2) "It'll teach ya' to be a lady" (I can't be a lady, if I'm only
physically female).
3) "You're fat and ugly and deserve it anyway" (Duh.. you take my meals
away for each little mistake, force me to steal food, and constantly
ridicule, and hit me, for 'being fat;' what the hell do you think I'm
going to look like?!).

Going from "dyke" to "male worm" makes me sick. Seriously.. if the
person calling us 'male worm' had said that to my face, I'd have dumped
coffee or soup all down the front of her. I wouldn't do it because of your
going MTF.. I'd do it because you're all binary gender streotypes and NOT
a real person. No real person would be without the wisdom to consider each
person individually. Calling me a 'male worm' makes you nothing more than
a two-dimensional gender bigot, and if you want to call me chauvinist for
that; you're even bigger a**hole.

If you have a right to go MTF, we have a right to go FTM/N. We
shouldn't have to be ridiculed or insulted for it. We don't make fun of
you.. why should we? WE'RE GOING THROUGH THE SAME S**T.. and in some
instances we're getting more than you are. There are gender therapists and
surgeons around who still can't accept the reality of the FTM/Ns. Some
employers have an even tougher time. I'm FTN.. Do you know how long it
took for me to even find a therapist and a surgeon who'll deviate from the
SOC, so I can have MY necessary procedures?? All the rest of these people
want me to lie and say that I'm totally FTM, so I can get the boobs off,
and the prep for phalloplasty, and 'run out of money' right before penile
construction. On top of that, almost all of them want me on testosterone
for six months prior to the bottom surgery, which would COMPLETELY screw
up my neutroisness.

Vicki writes:
<< Of course, I hope I am a better person than that. I hope I can at least
try to accept that they have a right to their own needs. It is simply
something that I must try to be open minded about just as straight people
have to be open minded about transgendered and gay people in general.>>

I hope so, too. We're all in this together.. gay, les, bi, TSw, TGw,
TSn, GPn, TSm, and TGm. Are are we supposed to make social progress if we
all split into little easily squashed factions? The only way we will
accomplish anything in the way of laws, employment, marriage, gender (in
the way of birth certificates, etc..), insurance coverage, etc.. is by
being united. To slam FTM/Ns, for going out of femaleness and aligning
with our maleness, or neuterness, is f**cking stupid. Do you all honestly
want to go back to the days where TSw & TGw were considered nothing more
than predatory failed homosexuals? That wasn't all that long ago..

Vicki writes:
<<Nevertheless, I'm sure that this basic discomfort makes it difficult
to
be completely open with the F2Ms.>>

Then share what you wish.. since when were we holding an
interrogation?

Vicki continues:


<<I applaud your condemnation of the M2F hitting on the F2Ms. I have
witnessed this and after reading your port, I am ashamed to say that I
was one to stand back and watch.>>

I usually stand back and watch because I don't like getting ivolved
in flamewars.. but the 'male worm' thing REALLY pissed me off.

Vicki writes:
<< It is very unfair, although one wishes that F2Ms were more
accommodating.>>

What do you want?! FTMs have done nothing wrong! It's been you folks,
who've been telling us to get our own newsgroups, or take it offline, or
whatever else. We never asked you to leave!! It's some of you MTFs, who
are being intolerant and unnaccommodating b**ches.

Vicki concludes with:


<<But nothing is every easy or all of us would find instant happiness.
Vicki>>

Yeah, well I'd say it's something like respect, diversity
appreciation, and compromise.You folks wanna' call me a 'chauvinist,' and
a 'male worm' because I want to loose female signifiers? To shed these
breasts and vagina: the instant permission for people to hurt me? These
things that ask dominant society to violate my being.. to negate it.. all
in the name of teaching me to be a lady?? Well, f**k you. Since you
'women' can't be decent enough give us the respect that we give you; to
Hell with you. I obviously owe you no further favors, or attention to the
disgusting morass this group has suddenly become.

Jane

unread,
Jan 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/17/97
to

Parker quotes:

> In keeping with the inverse nature of the transgendered community,
> its the transmen who have custody of their children, and thus have to
> deal with the myriad concerns of child care and day care in order to
> work, on top of being transgendered.

How common is it for F2Ms to have children? I thought it was far less
common than for M2Fs.

> If so, do we want that real community to have an accurate public face
> that reflects both points of departure (born-male and born-female)
> rather than the usually expected and getting-more-boring-every-minute
> M2F depictions in the media and in our public outreach efforts?

I don't think this problem is particularly the fault of M2Fs, a few days
ago there was a debate on transexuality on the UKs Talk Radio. Even after
the afformentioned Stephen Whittle of Press For Change called up and
pointed out that two types of transexuals existed, the presenter persisted
in presenting the impression that only M2Fs existed. Maybe Mr Whittle
should have shouted "I exist!" or something.

Jane


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Karen Ross

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Jan 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/17/97
to

GoSpangs <gosp...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970117092...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...

> Dear Group,
>
> I think the whole FTM as male chauvinist concept is bulls**t. I'm
> very angry with the group for being called a 'male worm' for simply
> transing out of the female gender.

Why do you hate the group for one stupid statement or a few insensitive
jerks.. The notion that FtM folks are louts is nonsense. It's certainly
not shared by many of us here. When I transitioned in the early 1970's the
TS support group to which I belonged included both MtF and FtM folks. Some
of the nicest TS folks I met were FtM. I never met a single male
chauvinist lout. Virtually without exception they were stable, kind,
thoughtful, mature, and considerate men. They were, as a group, *much*
better than the run of the mill male population I met. I numbered many of
them as friends. Off-hand, I don't recall any that I did not like. I
can't say the same about some of the MtF folks I met.

[snip]


> feminism. Did the person making the worm remark take that into
> consideration? NO. She called us (FTM/Ns) ALL male worms. I'm very angry
> about being likened to the very people who beat and sexually assaulted me
> while I was growing up because:
> 1) "All dykes deserve it" (I'm not a dyke, I'm a neutrois
transsexual).
> 2) "It'll teach ya' to be a lady" (I can't be a lady, if I'm only
> physically female).
> 3) "You're fat and ugly and deserve it anyway" (Duh.. you take my
meals
> away for each little mistake, force me to steal food, and constantly
> ridicule, and hit me, for 'being fat;' what the hell do you think I'm
> going to look like?!).

There is no lock on pain for FtM/N or MtF TS and TG people. Some of us
carry more scars than others, but none of got to where we are without some.

[snip]


> Vicki continues:
> <<I applaud your condemnation of the M2F hitting on the F2Ms. I have
> witnessed this and after reading your port, I am ashamed to say that I
> was one to stand back and watch.>>
>
> I usually stand back and watch because I don't like getting ivolved
> in flamewars.. but the 'male worm' thing REALLY pissed me off.

MtF people hitting on FtM TS folks is a new one on me. That didn't happen
in the group I was in, as far as I could tell. Maybe things have changed
or I was in an unusually good group.

It is, of course, normal to be angery when insulted.

> What do you want?! FTMs have done nothing wrong! It's been you
folks,
> who've been telling us to get our own newsgroups, or take it offline, or
> whatever else. We never asked you to leave!! It's some of you MTFs, who
> are being intolerant and unnaccommodating b**ches.

Has this happened to you in e-mail? Outside of the odd stupid post, I
don't recall reading much like that in the news group. OTOH, that's the
sort of thing I'd expect FtM/N people to vigorously address if and when it
happens...and properly so.

> Yeah, well I'd say it's something like respect, diversity
> appreciation, and compromise.You folks wanna' call me a 'chauvinist,' and
> a 'male worm' because I want to loose female signifiers? To shed these
> breasts and vagina: the instant permission for people to hurt me? These
> things that ask dominant society to violate my being.. to negate it.. all
> in the name of teaching me to be a lady?? Well, f**k you. Since you
> 'women' can't be decent enough give us the respect that we give you; to
> Hell with you. I obviously owe you no further favors, or attention to the
> disgusting morass this group has suddenly become.

Auden, why lump the whole group together for the stupid insensitivity of a
few? From time to time, jerks post offensive things. We've all been
offended at some time here. I don't believe that their is *any* consensus
or support here that invalidates the FtM/N path/s. Many of us, if not
most, understand that ridicule, rejection and hatred can and has been
directed at us all. It would be foolish to reject our TS and TG brothers
the same way TS and TG sisters have been treated.

------
Kare (Karen Ross)
"Courage is the price that life extracts for granting
peace with yourself." -- Amelia Earhart
kr...@cyberramp.net

Parker J. Davis

unread,
Jan 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/17/97
to

Jane wrote:
>
> Parker quotes:
>
> > In keeping with the inverse nature of the transgendered community,
> > its the transmen who have custody of their children, and thus have to
> > deal with the myriad concerns of child care and day care in order to
> > work, on top of being transgendered.
>
> How common is it for F2Ms to have children? I thought it was far less
> common than for M2Fs.

In my experience--only two of the twenty or so FTMs I know do *not* have
children.

> > If so, do we want that real community to have an accurate public face
> > that reflects both points of departure (born-male and born-female)
> > rather than the usually expected and getting-more-boring-every-minute
> > M2F depictions in the media and in our public outreach efforts?
>
> I don't think this problem is particularly the fault of M2Fs, a few days
> ago there was a debate on transexuality on the UKs Talk Radio. Even after
> the afformentioned Stephen Whittle of Press For Change called up and
> pointed out that two types of transexuals existed, the presenter persisted
> in presenting the impression that only M2Fs existed. Maybe Mr Whittle
> should have shouted "I exist!" or something.

I feel real conflict about this. If I shout "I exist" I inevitably hear
accusations that I am "acting just like a man." If I don't, then I
remain invisible.

One thing Jessica Xavier doesn't mention that I believe is a cause for
the imbalance of media attention is that because women are
hyper-sexualized in this culture,an MTF is assumed to be transitioning
as a fetish, whereas FTMs are seen as transtioning for the power and
privilege they are assumed to gain. Therefore, MTFs are much better
fodder for the media which thrives on sex...

Just another thought.
Parker

S Martin

unread,
Jan 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/18/97
to

In article <19970115204...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, gosp...@aol.com (GoSpangs) says:
>
><< Naa, it's just that FtMs are ever so chatty, while the guys lurk and
>once
>in a while post 3 liners if they aren't so busy with rec.trucks.monster
>that
>they quit reading here <G>
> -Stephany M.>>
>
> I take umbrage to this stereotype. Jules and I have posted a hell of
>alot more than three lines and I think monster trucks are stupid. If any
>of you wanna refer to me as a "male worm," get off your chicken femmy
>butt, come out here to visit and tell me to my face.
>
> Auden
>
I thought it a stereotype too absurd for anyone to take seriously, but
I was wrong. Sorry. If someone wondered where all the MtF crossdressers
are (seriously, they outnumber the rest of the T* crowd 10 to 1 but only
do 10% or so of the posts) I'd have said, with equal seriousness, that
they're all discussing 5" heels and fake eyelashes on alt.fashion. which
is the sort of stereotype *I* don't fit at all (I prefer hiking boots!).
This post was not meant as a put-down. It *was* inappropriate in a
support group, and I regret it.
-Stephany M. (MtF CD, in case you didn't know).

Joan Tine

unread,
Jan 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/18/97
to

GoSpangs (gosp...@aol.com) wrote:

: 1) "All dykes deserve it" (I'm not a dyke, I'm a neutrois transsexual).

: want me to lie and say that I'm totally FTM, so I can get the boobs off,


: and the prep for phalloplasty, and 'run out of money' right before penile
: construction. On top of that, almost all of them want me on testosterone
: for six months prior to the bottom surgery, which would COMPLETELY screw
: up my neutroisness.

I'm worried for you. Without any sex hormones, how are you going to
avoid calcium loss in your skeleton? Or am I assuming something I
shouldn't? You need _some_ form of sex hormone in your system in
order to keep resisting gravity, no?

Best,

Joan
--
=+=+=+http://130.111.120.13/~jott/index.html=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Wombat! Transexual Menace! Vicus Lusorum! Curry! Request public key.
Theoni Srith Nanklaren/Bubblegum Crisis/Rollerblade Macro EQ/Stego
Quare tristis es anima mea, et quare conturbas me?

ajdavis

unread,
Jan 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/18/97
to

Okay, so I'm going to stick my virtual foot in my mouth yet again but
what the hey, everyone gets to have a hobby.

I hate pointing out all these massive white elephants that are
stampeding through our community living room but HERE GOES ONE NOW!!!
It looks like this. Every MTF who has tried to distance herself from
being male, I mean REALLY distance yourself to the point of nearly
hating them take your hand off the mouse and raise your hand. It's one
of the things that happens and seems to be a combination of two things.
One is that we want to *pass* and so distancing ourselves from 'them'
and pointing out all the ways that 'they' are wrong/bad/evil/the
downfall of humanity/genetic backdrift/etc. ad nauseum is a quick and
easy way to get there.

The other has to do with coming to early feminist consciousness. I'm
not dissing that. Hell, I'm HAPPY to meet any TS woman who calls
herself a feminist or a womanist. One of those stages is 'i hate men,
their the problem'. I went through it. A lot of other women I know go
through it. Eventually we get over it <hopefully> and go on to lead
lives not focused on what 'they' have done to 'us'. It's hard to be a
woman in this <or any other> culture and not be angry. That anger is
healthy and justified. But Men are not the problem. Patriarchy is the
problem. And most of the FTM men I've ever met are not patriarchial
men<save one very whacked human being I used to know>. At any rate,
hating men gets us no where.

Julianne, get over it. Your hostility towards men isn't really getting
you anywhere. I'm glad you're a feminist, now let it move to a deeper
level where the focus isn't on what men have done to you, to Parker, to
your mother, or women as a whole. Go to that *really* terrifying place
that calls you to heal, first yourself then to create a healing space
for other women so all of us are empowered to have different choices.,
So we can all go where we want to go, be who we want to be and *not*
feel like we're sacrificing a drop of our womanness as the entrace fee.
Using things like 'you male worm' is juvenile---and that's okay too. All
of us start as some flavor of adolescent that we never really got to
be. So enjoy that but try to remember that for every TS-woman running
around there's a TS-man someplace and he knows this territory too. He's
our brother and he deserves the love and respect we all should give
family.

Adrienne

--
Adrienne J. Davis---...@igc.org <personal> or ajd...@sybase.com
<work>
Dredloked power-femme. PGP key upon request
*******************************************************************************
We can do no great thing---only small things with great love. <Mother
Theresa>

KatherineR

unread,
Jan 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/18/97
to

ajdavis wrote:
...

> Julianne, get over it. Your hostility towards men isn't really getting
> you anywhere...

> Using things like 'you male worm' is juvenile---and that's okay too. All
> of us start as some flavor of adolescent that we never really got to
> be. So enjoy that but try to remember that for every TS-woman running
> around there's a TS-man someplace and he knows this territory too. He's
> our brother and he deserves the love and respect we all should give
> family.
> Adrienne

For crying out loud people. I read the post. It was a joke! Julianne Haugh made a rather
humorous and quite sarcastic commentary on life. It was _clearly_ intended to be taken as
such. She even went to the trouble of suffixing a '<smile>' as a trailer.

It seems most, if not all, of the biting repartee in this group is the result of taking
posts out of context or interpreting them in a malicious light. We _all_ know how
difficult it is to adequately convey feelings, impressions, wit and gestures through a
text-only medium. As we are _not_ all Hemingway's, Dickinson's, and Rand's, I believe we
could all just give each other a little bit of a break and both reread each others posts to
ensure that we haven't misinterpreted the intent or taken it out of context, and also to
try and avoid a malicious interpretation if there are multiple choices.

<I don't mean to insinuate that you, Adrienne, are 'guilty'. I just picked this point to
jump in!>

Haven't we all sat down and responded to email or posted at the end of a bad day? When
depressed? When too tired to think, let alone be clear of thought and word? I'm afraid to
post if I don't have an hour to review and edit my thoughts for fear that some of you will
misinterpret and think ill of me!

We are all here for support in one way or another. Whether it is myself or Colleen
thirsting for information and friendship; Kristin or Joan passing out jewels of wisdom
<smile>; or Julie passing out advice on leg shaving! Regardless of our methods, some of us
feel supported by just _being_ able to post, others feel supported by giving in the form of
advice and friendly commentary.

I know that nothing I can say here can prevent people from flaming one another. But I have
to try. If you could all just please think for a few moments about what all of you mean to
newcomers like myself. I suspect it even goes further and that there are veterans here who
feel the same. It hurts to see you fighting. You are _all_ wonderful people. I know
that. Not all of you are MD's or lawyers or engineers (me! me! :) or computer scientists
but, you know what? Even those of you who have been right in the middle of the recent
flaming bouts have been very supportive of both myself and, if I understand correctly, of
others like myself, veterans too, who desparately needed help.

That means that _all_ of you are needed here. That's the purpose of the group right?
Support? I don't think _any_ of you is wise enough and has the time to support _all_ of
us. I know _I_ need all of you. So it's a joint effort right? Right?

Katherine
--
Pain has an element of blank;
It cannot recollect
When it began, or if there were
A day when it was not.

It has no future but itself,
Its infinite realms contain
Its past, enlightened to perceive
New periods of pain.

Emily Dickinson

Karen Ross

unread,
Jan 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/18/97
to

Joan Tine <jo...@snugbug.cts.com> wrote in article
<E472u...@snugbug.cts.com>...
> GoSpangs (gosp...@aol.com) wrote:

> : construction. On top of that, almost all of them want me on


testosterone
> : for six months prior to the bottom surgery, which would COMPLETELY
screw
> : up my neutroisness.
>

> I'm worried for you. Without any sex hormones, how are you going to
> avoid calcium loss in your skeleton? Or am I assuming something I
> shouldn't? You need _some_ form of sex hormone in your system in
> order to keep resisting gravity, no?

General rule of the thumb, figure 2% bone loss per year without HRT. At
75% bone density you've got osteoporosis. At 50% loss, hip fractures are
common for even minor falls. It's a complicated area, but deserves careful
attention. It shouldn't be ignored.

Kare

Joan Tine

unread,
Jan 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/19/97
to

Parker J. Davis (shan...@igc.org) wrote:

: One thing Jessica Xavier doesn't mention that I believe is a cause for


: the imbalance of media attention is that because women are
: hyper-sexualized in this culture,an MTF is assumed to be transitioning
: as a fetish, whereas FTMs are seen as transtioning for the power and
: privilege they are assumed to gain. Therefore, MTFs are much better
: fodder for the media which thrives on sex...

Pahkah, old sock, why don't you go over to RAND and help them think?
If this is an example of you not really trying, I'd be fascinated to
see you really straining...wow. That was one of the most perceptive
and true statements I've ever read on a monitor, and packaged in an
enteric coating so the recipient is less likely to regurgitate with
violence:).

The root of society's oppression of the T* is their oppression of
woman, their subugation of her, their invalidation of her, their
reduction of her to the status of fucktoy, and the nauseating
complicity so many _women_, even today, are guilty of with regard to
this feudalism. It's a set-up. Men are forbidden sexual
exhibtionism, emotionalism, self-expression, self-celebration, and in
return for giving those natural pleasures up, have been rewarded with
the right to rape ("conjugal rights") the de-facto right to kill their
wives and children, and the status of slaveholder over half of
humanity. That's hard stuff to de-program...particularly when most of
the population's first experience with introspection comes at the
moment of death.

But the Big Lie is that what men do defines "normal". There's
_nothing_ normal about the male role as shipped.

J.

Julie

unread,
Jan 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/19/97
to

In article <32E11D...@igc.org>, ajdavis says...

>
>Okay, so I'm going to stick my virtual foot in my mouth yet again but
>what the hey, everyone gets to have a hobby.

Yes, you are.

>Julianne, get over it. Your hostility towards men isn't really getting

>you anywhere. I'm glad you're a feminist, now let it move to a deeper
>level where the focus isn't on what men have done to you, to Parker, to
>your mother, or women as a whole. Go to that *really* terrifying place
>that calls you to heal, first yourself then to create a healing space
>for other women so all of us are empowered to have different choices.,
>So we can all go where we want to go, be who we want to be and *not*
>feel like we're sacrificing a drop of our womanness as the entrace fee.

>Using things like 'you male worm' is juvenile---and that's okay too. All
>of us start as some flavor of adolescent that we never really got to
>be. So enjoy that but try to remember that for every TS-woman running
>around there's a TS-man someplace and he knows this territory too. He's
>our brother and he deserves the love and respect we all should give
>family.

Aj, I long since (read: Many Years Ago -- I didn't become a feminist
the day I started swallowing estrogen pills) realized that the issue
isn't "men". TEJ and I have had chats about me and feminism. Which now
reminds me -- I bet that my ex hasn't returned my copy of "The Second
Sex" ...

Please, go back and read that article and look just after the second
paragraph. See that? No, not the blank line, that "<smile>" down there.

"<smile>" means "Humour", "Funny", "It's a joke, son, I said it's a joke".

There are =plenty= of good and decent men -- and many (hell, most ;-) of
them aren't transmen. Likewise, there are quite a few women-born-women
who've been co-opted by the patriarchy and are now no better than those
guys who set up and maintain the current social structure.

Lighten up -- if you =really= want to seen unabashed hatred for men, go
read the stuff Irene Stubner posts, or ask around about Mark Ethan Smith.
When I come after Parker with a pair of (metaphorical) gelding shears,
=then= you know I've crossed the line.
--
Julianne Frances Haugh Those who do not understand Unix are
mailto:j...@tab.com condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
http://www.tab.com/~jfh -- Henry Spencer

Karen Ross

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Jan 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/19/97
to

Julie <j...@tab.com.nospam> wrote in article <5bt4ku$c...@lana.zippo.com>...

> When I come after Parker with a pair of (metaphorical) gelding shears,
> =then= you know I've crossed the line.

Oooooo...now there's an image...Julianne with metaphorical shears chasing
Parker!

Shear terror! :-)


Kare

Parker J. Davis

unread,
Jan 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/20/97
to

So, Julianne your original post never made it to my server, and then
this shows up! And all this time I thought you were going to chase me
with chocolate-covered strawberries! You hadn't forgotten had you?

About the "male worm" thing. I knew it was a joke b/c I have dealt with
Julie on-line for some time now. It makes sense to me that not everyone
would figure that out since Julie's post was very short and did not
offer much in the way of context. The "<smile>" may have looked like an
evil grin to some...

Julie, you have been hard on us guys from time to time. It makes sense
to me that after your hard-fought esccape from maleness you might not be
the most enthusiastic supporter of someone going there. After all, if
you had been held hostage in Texas and you finally managed to get free,
you might discourage me from travelling that way...:)

I posted the Jessica Xavier article b/c I thought it raised some
interesting points about the subconscious patterns at work between MTFs
and FTMs.

Parker--avoiding femmes wielding sharp instruments.

spunky

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Jan 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/20/97
to

Vicki writes:
<< It is very unfair, although one wishes that F2Ms were more
accommodating.>>

Excuse me, but just *what* should FTMs have to be more accomodating *of*.
This is a prime example of the appaling lack of empathy displayed by most
MTFs I have met. I get really pissed off when I remember how the MTFs
in my old gender group would trivialize, dimiss, and otherwise invalidate
the concerns of FTMs. It's a good thing the discussion groups were segregated,
otherwise the polite FTM's would not of gotten a word past the domineering
MTFs.( Talk about gender role reversals.)

If I have been this way to you Auden, I sincerely apologize.

I know your concerns are real. The only TS with whom I still have f2f contact
with is FTM. With only one exception, all the FTMs I have known have been
complete gentlemen, *real* men in the truest sense of the word. None of them
ever "hit on" any of the other TS in the group. (Call me a prude, but I have
always had a sense of relationships between two TS as wrong, anyway). None of
them were ever "chauvinistic" in any way (except one).

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. You deserve better.

spunky

Jane

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Jan 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/20/97
to

Parker writes:
> Jane wrote:
> > Parker quotes:

> > How common is it for F2Ms to have children? I thought it was far less
> > common than for M2Fs.
>
> In my experience--only two of the twenty or so FTMs I know do *not* have
> children.

Would you say that this phenomenom is due to FTMs trying to prove their
feminimity, just as MTFs often join the army or partake in other macho
persuits, or is it simply a desire for children?

> > I don't think this problem is particularly the fault of M2Fs, a few days
> > ago there was a debate on transexuality on the UKs Talk Radio. Even after
> > the afformentioned Stephen Whittle of Press For Change called up and
> > pointed out that two types of transexuals existed, the presenter persisted
> > in presenting the impression that only M2Fs existed. Maybe Mr Whittle
> > should have shouted "I exist!" or something.
>
> I feel real conflict about this. If I shout "I exist" I inevitably hear
> accusations that I am "acting just like a man." If I don't, then I
> remain invisible.

I would have thought you wouldn't have a problem with accusations of


"acting just like a man."

> One thing Jessica Xavier doesn't mention that I believe is a cause for


> the imbalance of media attention is that because women are
> hyper-sexualized in this culture,an MTF is assumed to be transitioning
> as a fetish, whereas FTMs are seen as transtioning for the power and
> privilege they are assumed to gain. Therefore, MTFs are much better
> fodder for the media which thrives on sex...

It is my observation that women seem to find FTMs more interesting as a
phenomenon than MTFs, and men find MTFs more interesting as a phenomenon
than FTMs.
Men control the media.

There is also the problem that to my eyes some "MTFs" do seem to be
transitioning as a fetish. There seems to be a similar phenomenon going
on with some "FTMs" but I havn't seen enough of that kind to figure out
why they're doing it.

Jane

Karen Ross

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Jan 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/21/97
to

Julianne F. Haugh <j...@austin.ibm.com> wrote in article
<5c1j7t$1o...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>...

> Oh -- I've used no clues in this posting because you must learn to
> THINK on your own. I cannot do your thinking for you. I am not your
> mother or your wet nurse. I'm also not your Father's Oldsmobile.

Of course not, dear. I wrapped that sucker around a tree when I was
seventeen. Then again, the last time I saw it, it was awfully bent. And
you'll have to admit that you are rather a bit bent...so...maybe....
<ducking for cover>


Kare

Colleen

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Jan 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/28/97
to

In article <5c1j7t$1o...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>,
j...@austin.ibm.com (Julianne F. Haugh) wrote:

> In article <19970117092...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> GoSpangs <gosp...@aol.com> wrote:

>> Dear Group,
>>
>> I think the whole FTM as male chauvinist concept is bulls**t. I'm

>> very angry with the group for being called a 'male worm' ...........

The group? Does that include me? What have I done?

> Well, GoSpangs, you have certainly passed my test of True Manlyness for
> having failed to grasp that most difficult of all mediums -- the written
> word. The flailing motion you made as your bounced off the walls was
> rather entertaining to watch. Something I frankly =do= enjoy watching
> from those few men (Read: That subset of the male population who are =not=
> an element in { Good And Decent Men } (or is that { Good Men } U { Decent
> Men } -- I forget ...)

Actually, the U should be a ...., just a second, .... Sorry, It should be
an U upside down. I can't seem to find it on my keyboard.

> Fur duh rekord (since we seem to be having at least some problem reading
> the English language ...), I called no one a male worm. Nor do my words
> make you a male worm if I should decide to call you one. Watch --
>
> You are a male worm.

Sorry, missed it. Did it work?

Colleen

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