Difference between crossdresser and transvestite ?
coronado
between a crossdresser and a transvestite but they provide no clear
explaination as to the difference between the two. Can someone please
let me know the difference.
Rachel Kronick 倪 嘉 雯
Nicole Hamilton
It's really more-or-less the same thing, though it's now more PC to call a
male who cross-dresses a CD than a TV. I suppose in some people's minds
there may be subtle differences, e.g., I gather that some people think of
TVs as more likely to be gay or perhaps that a TV spends more time
cross-dressed than does a CD, but I don't think that's anything close to a
universally accepted distinction. As far as I can see, they're really
terms for the same thing: a guy (usually) that likes to dress in women's
clothes but still has no doubt that his gender identity is male.
Cross-dressing for these individuals is a compulsive, often fetishistic
behavior.
Nicki
Kynvelyn
> I have been looking at the various sites and they seem to differentiate
> between a crossdresser and a transvestite but they provide no clear
> explaination as to the difference between the two. Can someone please
> let me know the difference.
Oversimplified but here goes;
Transvestite is a diagnosis
Crossdressing is an activity
Wendy
Gwendolyn Ann Smith
> I have been looking at the various sites and they seem to differentiate
> between a crossdresser and a transvestite but they provide no clear
> explaination as to the difference between the two. Can someone please
> let me know the difference.
For what it's worth...
I do tend to differentiate the two, simply because some folks seem to
prefer one, and some, the other.
I *personally* have not seen that much of a difference, and have found
that when others have tried to explain to me a difference, it is often
contrary to the words of the last person who tried to define them for
me.
Cheers,
Gwen Smith
--
. .
/\\//\ Gwendolyn Ann Smith * Area Advisor, TCF
> () < Board Member, AEGIS * Webmistress, TransBay
\/()\/ Webmistress, SCCatl * Webmistress, gender.org
"I want this to be a harmony of voices" - Lauren D. Wilson
**Posts may not reflect the views of the above organizations
Anitasd
The crossdresser is a heterosexual male who wears clothes of the opposite sex.
Transvestite is a bi or homosexual who wears clothes of the opposite sex.
If the two words have the same meaning, why do these words exist? Why? The
community recognize the differences.
If walked in the gay pride parade. When I approach a gay man (I'm hetrosexual
and in drab,{ have no problems associating with the gay community}) I tell him
I'm transgendered, he'll turn on his heels and march away. I wish I had a
nickel evert time this has happened anyone in the transgendered community.
Transgender has two meanings in the community. The first meaning is an all
inclusive meaning that covers Gay, Lesbians, Bi, TS, TV, and CD's. The narrow
meaning of transgender is used among the "community." When I approach a gay and
say I'm transgendered, it means I'm either a transsexual, transvestite, or
crossdresser.
There are 2 reasons why gays HATE the crossdressers.
1. Crossdressers stopped the passage of the federal anti-homo discrimination
legislation. Crossdressers say they'll work to halt the law until the words
"sexual identification" is included. The gays are pissed at the crossdressers
for doing this. The gays have no problems with the transvestites going into gay
clubs. But beware if you say you're a crossdresser. Lesbians flat out don't
allow crossdressers to enter their bars.
2. Crossdressers are homophobic. Their support groups have charters which
forbids homoseaual or transvestites to attend their meetings. (Tri-Ess and
Renaisance) Plus a myriad of local support groups. Crossdressers and
Transvestites.
People who dress in private and don't attend support groups are out of the loop
and don't understand the politics of the gay and transgender communities.
There's a tremendous differences between Crossdressers and Transvestites.
Anita
This has been a public service announcment.
Toni Roome
>
> Woah! There's a significant difference between Crossdresser and Transvestite.
> The crossdresser is a heterosexual male who wears clothes of the opposite sex.
> Transvestite is a bi or homosexual who wears clothes of the opposite sex.
>
> If the two words have the same meaning, why do these words exist? Why? The
> community recognize the differences.
>
Simply one of them is 'plain english) - CD and the other is based on the
latin words for the same thing - TV. The latter just tends to get used
in the psychiatrict community and literature as it sounds more
technical.
hugs,
--
Toni
"One should, each day, try to hear a little song,
read a good poem, see a fine picture, and, if it is
possible, speak a few reasonable words" (Goethe)
Karen Ross
news:19990601014845...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> Woah! There's a significant difference between Crossdresser and
Transvestite.
> The crossdresser is a heterosexual male who wears clothes of the opposite
sex.
> Transvestite is a bi or homosexual who wears clothes of the opposite sex.
That's a very idiosyncratic definition. My unabridged defines a
transvestite as:
"N. a person, esp. a male, who assumes the dress and manner usually
associated with the opposite sex."
The term "transvestite" was coined for medical literature to define behavior
that was being pathologized as aberant. It's just Latin for "crossdresser".
The terms are sometimes assumed to have somewhat different meanings, but
different people make different assumptions. There really is no general
consensus on such a difference. The examples you site are simply ones
you've encountered. They aren't even especially typical.
-- Kare
JessicaAsh
>
Where do you get your information? Transvestite is the word coined (by Magnus
Hirschfield, if I'm not mistaken) to describe someone who dresses in the
clothes of the opposite sex, it has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
>If walked in the gay pride parade. When I approach a gay man (I'm
>hetrosexual
>and in drab,{ have no problems associating with the gay community}) I tell
>him
>I'm transgendered, he'll turn on his heels and march away. I wish I had a
>nickel evert time this has happened anyone in the transgendered community.
Funny, I've had just the opposite happen. In fact, I co-chaired the 1998 North
Carolina LGBT Pride March, the first TG person to do so! I received incredible
support from numerous gay men and women and was proud to represent the entire
LGBT community, not just my TG brothers and sisters. (I'm a CD, by the way.
If you're into labels.)
>Transgender has two meanings in the community. The first meaning is an all
>inclusive meaning that covers Gay, Lesbians, Bi, TS, TV, and CD's. The
>narrow
>meaning of transgender is used among the "community." When I approach a gay
>and
>say I'm transgendered, it means I'm either a transsexual, transvestite, or
>crossdresser.
Whoops! Transgender can mean the whole TG community or anyone who transgresses
gender boundaries, but does not hinge on sexual orientation. It also can mean
a person who lives full time as opposite their birth gender without having
surgery.
>There are 2 reasons why gays HATE the crossdressers.
>1. Crossdressers stopped the passage of the federal anti-homo discrimination
>legislation. Crossdressers say they'll work to halt the law until the words
>"sexual identification" is included. The gays are pissed at the crossdressers
>for doing this. The gays have no problems with the transvestites going into
>gay
>clubs. But beware if you say you're a crossdresser. Lesbians flat out don't
>allow crossdressers to enter their bars.
What planet do you live on? ENDA, The Employment Non-Discrimination Act, has
not been voted on yet. Work is still being done on it and while some groups
don't want "Transgender" to be a part of it, other groups are working to make
sure it's added. By the way, this legislation is supposed to be for all of us,
not just the "homos".
>2. Crossdressers are homophobic. Their support groups have charters which
>forbids homoseaual or transvestites to attend their meetings. (Tri-Ess and
>Renaisance) Plus a myriad of local support groups. Crossdressers and
>Transvestites.
Yes, some CD's are homophobic, but not all, thank goodness! And as I've
already stated, your definition of CD & TV isn't quite up to snuff.
>People who dress in private and don't attend support groups are out of the
>loop
>and don't understand the politics of the gay and transgender communities.
>
>There's a tremendous differences between Crossdressers and Transvestites.
>
>Anita
>This has been a public service announcment.
>
Talk about out of the loop!! No, what this was, (in the words of the old
National Lampoon Radio Hour) was a Public Dis-service Annoucement. It's
misinformation like this that continues to tear our community apart from the
inside. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, Stupidity is pride in that lack of
knowledge. Ignorance can be excused, Stupidity and Bigotry can not.
Jessica Britton,
cofounder, Phoenix Transgender Support
Gwendolyn Ann Smith
> If walked in the gay pride parade. When I approach a gay man (I'm
> hetrosexual and in drab,{ have no problems associating with the gay
> community}) I tell him I'm transgendered, he'll turn on his heels and
> march away. I wish I had a nickel evert time this has happened anyone
> in the transgendered community.
I'll have to echo a bit of what Jessica (Hi, Jessica!) said here.
I've never had an experience like that. In fact, I have gotten very
little flak, and a lot of support, from members of the G/L community.
> Transgender has two meanings in the community. The first meaning is an all
> inclusive meaning that covers Gay, Lesbians, Bi, TS, TV, and CD's.
Actually, transgender does not specifically cover gay nor lesbian,
though one can find many gay and lesbian transgendered individuals.
> There are 2 reasons why gays HATE the crossdressers.
> 1. Crossdressers stopped the passage of the federal anti-homo discrimination
> legislation.
I suspect that more gay or lesbian individuals would be upset by
calling them "homos" more than anything else. And actually, it was
more than crossdressers involved with the struggle over ENDA.
> But beware if you say you're a crossdresser. Lesbians flat out don't
> allow crossdressers to enter their bars.
In some cases, yes. It's not "flat out." It also depends on how one
acts in there. If one is being disrespectful of the space, then I can
gladly see their point.
> 2. Crossdressers are homophobic. Their support groups have charters which
> forbids homoseaual or transvestites to attend their meetings. (Tri-Ess and
> Renaisance)
Renaissance does not have such an ordinance that I am aware of, though
yes, most tri-ess chapters are specifically for hetreosexual
crossdressers/transvestites. There are even more that do not follow
such antiquated systems.
And please, be careful making "blanket statements." I have a few
crossdresser friends who would be quite surprised to find that they are
homophobic.
However, this has little to do with any reasons there has been a schism
between the communities. Take a look at the historical basis to all of
this, and note some of the rifts started back around 1977-79.
> People who dress in private and don't attend support groups are out of
> the loop and don't understand the politics of the gay and transgender
> communities. There's a tremendous differences between Crossdressers and
> Transvestites.
I consider myself to be pretty much "in the loop," and I've never heard
of any major difference between the two terms, as you indicated them.
Donna Lynn Matthews
hami...@hamiltonlabs.com says...
> coronado <to...@here.com> wrote:
> > I have been looking at the various sites and they seem to
> > differentiate between a crossdresser and a transvestite
> > but they provide no clear explaination as to the difference
> > between the two. Can someone please let me know
> > the difference.
>
> male who cross-dresses a CD than a TV. I suppose in some people's minds
> there may be subtle differences, e.g., I gather that some people think of
> TVs as more likely to be gay or perhaps that a TV spends more time
> cross-dressed than does a CD, but I don't think that's anything close to a
> universally accepted distinction.
The distinction is usually that 'transvestite' sounds too much like a
diagnosis, which it is in the case of transvestic fetishism.
> As far as I can see, they're really
> terms for the same thing: a guy (usually) that likes to dress in women's
> clothes but still has no doubt that his gender identity is male.
The DSM-IV lists transvestic fetishism as only presenting in males. This
is why crossdresser is a more accurate term, as both males *and* females
can (and do) crossdress. Crossdressing is an action, with a crossdresser
being one who crossdresses. There is nothing else implied by the term.
As for gender identity... One's sex can be male. One's gender identity
can be masculine, feminine or anything else in between.
> Cross-dressing for these individuals is a compulsive, often fetishistic
> behavior.
Wrong. It is *not* often fetishistic. Crossdressing is more often that
not a form of gender espression. Most crossdressers do not dress to get
off.
Love and Stuff,
Donna
--
The value of a thing sometimes lies not in what one
attains with it, but in what one pays for it - what
it *costs* us. - Nietzsche
--
Donna's Hideout can be found at
http://donnas-hideout.org/
Arose323
>> march away. I wish I had a nickel evert time this has happened anyone
>> in the transgendered community.
>
>I'll have to echo a bit of what Jessica (Hi, Jessica!) said here.
>
>I've never had an experience like that. In fact, I have gotten very
>little flak, and a lot of support, from members of the G/L community.
>
Hi,
Maybe it all depends on the particular situation, and how open both parties are
to the other? I have not ever had anything but enjoyable experiences in
meeting others across the GLBT community, and it's always nice when there are
other things about us that are similar interests. Our sexual orientation or
our personal gender understanding are not the only things that define who we
are.
Angela
Nicole Hamilton
> Most crossdressers do not dress to get off.
And you really believe that? More to the point, you think anyone else is
going to believe that? :)
Nicki
Anitasd
are important to me. It gives me feedback on my communication skills, a
different view of the topic. I analyze these for insight. I do not take the
replies lightly, but not seriously.
Some of you pointed out my use of blanket terms. I agree with you. This was
unfair to these people. I will make attempt to think about this before I
write.
All most all of you said they had pleasant encounters with the Gay and Lesbian
community. I'm hearten to hear of such good news. I hope this continues and
grows. I really do. We need to support each other
in all aspects of the issues we face: discrimination, laws that protect us from
hate crimes, work issues, and destroying myths and stereotypes that mislead the
public into mean behavior. Many of you live in social oppressive section of
your country. In Southern Califorina is is some what tolerant of the
transgender community. This cause problems." What?" you say? A gay female
impersonator gave me his view of the transvestite community. He said that in
the South. (U.S.A) ( I'm talking to people from all over the world), the
culture is oppressive, therefore the community has to circle the wagons and
"hunker down." Aren't cliches wonderful? Seriously, the transgender community
has to be tight togeather and support each other. Hence, they become best of
friends and help each other. BUT, a corious thing happens. The community drifts
apart. They form social groups and they distance themselves from each other.
This is at the "file and rank" individuals. They tend to form lasting
friendships. But, at the activist levels, attitudes seem to be different.
I talked to the members of my support group. They surprised me with
information that there was a rift between executives of the different support
groups in San Diego California. I come along and get caught in the middle of
this war. The major players in this melodrama have left the county. Those of us
who left have to pick up the pieces and mend fences. We have formed the Rainbow
Alliance. I have participated in the ground level executive stearing group. We
outlined the goals of what the community needed and direction to achieve it. I
represented the Transgender community. At the beginning of the meeting I got
feedback of the nature like, "Who are you and what are you doing here?"
I kept a postive attitude and quietly presented our views and concerns of the
transgender people. At the end of the meeting I was relieved that I was invited
to return for further meeting and represent the transgender commuinty. There
will be a summit in August where every group in the county to discuss how we
are to deal with the media, setup a public access television program for the
community, speakers bureau, out reach programs for teens and senior citzens. I
will be the guest speaker for the transgendered people. We feel that finally we
will be heard and given a chance to express our views. I'm very pleased that we
are getting together and become friends.
Another comment was the denotation and connotation of the words transvestite
and crossdresser. I submit the book, "Fractured English," by Richard Lederer.
He contends that the English language is a dymamic, ever change form of
communication. The recient issue of the Oxford dictionary introduce 53 new
words (mostly techinical and street slang)
Ain't is now in the dictionary. The language of the community is ever changing.
The terms used many years ago do not hold the same meaning today. So to those
who quoated me definations, "What edtion are you quotating from? I also
contend that the scholary definations is in sync with common usage. I feel
that the scholars lag behind the rapid changes of society let alone the
transgender community.
It's getting late and I have some more to say later. I will read your
responses and comment on them later.
Hugs
Anita
I hope I spelled everthing correctlly
Mmfrasier
Wow!!! I pity the poor soul who made the original post..... no doubt to ask for
clarification between the two terms.
I only hope s/he can weed through all the biased baloney you 've managed to
heap on hir.
-Monica _/!
Karen Ross
... BUT, a corious thing happens. The community drifts
> apart. They form social groups and they distance themselves from each
other.
> This is at the "file and rank" individuals. They tend to form lasting
> friendships. But, at the activist levels, attitudes seem to be different.
Not surprising. There's a difference between friendship and self-interest.
To understand politics you must understand the self-interests, not the
friendships
> Ain't is now in the dictionary. The language of the community is ever
changing.
> The terms used many years ago do not hold the same meaning today. So to
those
> who quoated me definations, "What edtion are you quotating from?
I quoted from the _Random_House_Compact_Unabridged_Dictionary_, copyright
1996. And the notion that the accepted meaning of "transvestite" may have
changed in the last three years is laughably silly.
...I also
> contend that the scholary definations is in sync with common usage. I
feel
> that the scholars lag behind the rapid changes of society let alone the
> transgender community.
Such an arbitrary contention discredits your opinion. The scholarly
definition is quite in sync with common usage. Common miss-usage or
idiosyncratic usage is something else altogether.
-- Kare
Donna Lynn Matthews
hami...@hamiltonlabs.com says...
> Donna Lynn Matthews <ms_d...@geocities.com> wrote:
> > Most crossdressers do not dress to get off.
>
> And you really believe that?
I know it. I've been crossdresing for some twenty-odd years. It's not
about fetishism or getting off. It's about gender expression more than
anything else. To paint it as otherwise marginalizes the identities of
those who crossdress.
> More to the point, you think anyone else is going to believe that? :)
As much as they'll believe you're a woman. We are *all* on the short end
when it comes to the cisgendered understanding and accepting us for who
we are.
If we can't accept eachother's differences in gender identity and
expression, how can we expect anyone else to?
Anitasd
replies that made some of the snide remarks worth while. I have received 31
e-mail messages. 16 agreed with me or some aspects of my posts. 15 that
disagreed with most of what I said. I really don't mind these comments. They
are insightful and it makes me think. They bring up issues I would never
considered. Thank you all.
Some observations.
Those who agreed sent specific references and citations to support their
arguments. Truely a delight to read. Those who had differing view points
usaually dismissed the concepts as dis-information, ill- informed, and
misleading. They couldn't offer any definitations or explainations for their
opinions.
That's fine. I'm glad they cared enough to take their valuable time to share
opions. I needed to hear them.
Tonight, the Public Radio Station in San Diego had Drag Queens as guest
speakers for their new restaurant, "Lips." It's a drag in review show.
Waitresses are drag queens. The performers and bartender are drag queens. Their
grand opening is this Saturday. The host asked the question, "What is a
Transvestite?" The guest (according to the host, looked like Cher) answered the
question with, "A transvestite is a man who dresses for sex." Notice to all!
This defination was based on sexual context. Those, who argued that the
dictionaries and the DSM didn't use sex as a basis of difinitions, this person
did use sex as a factor of the definiation. That definition went out over the
air. How many were listeners were listeninig at that time, only God knows. Was
this drag queen right? Who's to say that she was right or wrong? But, this
information went out to San Diego county. Anyway, "Lips" is a knock of the "
Lips" in New York city. I'm going to the show later next week, in drab.
Another aspect I noticed was the number of differing opion among the members of
this newsgroup. Who is better to apply labels than the members of this group? I
still don't know what the defininations of Crossdreser and transvestite are.
Why is there so much confussion? I can't figure this one out.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Anita
In highschool I was voted the most to be come an idiot, chimpanzee, or poor
white trash.
JessicaAsh
>They
>are important to me. It gives me feedback on my communication skills, a
>different view of the topic. I analyze these for insight. I do not take the
>replies lightly, but not seriously.
>
> Some of you pointed out my use of blanket terms. I agree with you. This was
>unfair to these people. I will make attempt to think about this before I
>write.
Congratulations, Anita. Your response shows a willingness to learn.
Something we could all benefit from. I apologize for my snide tone and only
hope that I may have contributed some food for thought.
>All most all of you said they had pleasant encounters with the Gay and
>Lesbian
>community. I'm hearten to hear of such good news. I hope this continues and
>grows. I really do. We need to support each other
>in all aspects of the issues we face: discrimination, laws that protect us
>from
>hate crimes, work issues, and destroying myths and stereotypes that mislead
>the
>public into mean behavior.
I agree. And if we don't talk to one another,listen to one another, and
generally give each other a chance, it will take a lot longer to achieve any of
our goals. We've all had good and bad experiences with the people we've met,
gasy, straight, CD, TV, TS, whatever. We have to remember to treat these
people as individuals, and not fall back on stereotypes, or we run the risk of
creating even more problems.
>Many of you live in social oppressive section of
>your country. In Southern Califorina is is some what tolerant of the
>transgender community. This cause problems." What?" you say? A gay female
>impersonator gave me his view of the transvestite community. He said that in
>the South. (U.S.A) ( I'm talking to people from all over the world), the
>culture is oppressive, therefore the community has to circle the wagons and
>"hunker down." Aren't cliches wonderful?
Cliche may be right here. As a life-long southerner from a small town, I know
there can be oppression, I've seen it first hand. But I've also seen a sense
of family that is to be cherished and encouraged. Here in Asheville, NC, in
the heart of Jesse Helms Land, our support group has been active for almost 13
years now, and many of our members are out and accepted in the larger
community. There is still oppression and discrimination and bigotry, but
nothing like many years ago. In 1992, the NC Pride march featured 1500 LGBT
marchers and about 2 dozen protesters. In 1998, we had over 4000 marchers and
maybe 4 dozen protesters, and we had the full support of the Chamber of
Commerce. Not bad for a small southern town. Not only that, but the first TG
speaker at NC Pride came from Asheville (Holly Boswell).
>I talked to the members of my support group. They surprised me with
>information that there was a rift between executives of the different support
>groups in San Diego California.
Not as surprising as you might think. There's a lot of ego out there. That's
why it's up to all of us to work together. Regardless of where we are on the
Gender path, we have at least something in common, and we're all in this
together. Maybe it's time to dump the alphabet soup of CD/TV/TG/TS and start
working on US! Those who are against us (and against the rest of the LGBT
community) don't care what branch of the tree we're on, they're out to chop
down the whole thing and dynamite the stump!
Again Anita, I apologize for my tone in my original response and hope it won't
keep you from learning and working for the future.
Jessica Britton
Glenn, thine Prophet of Chaos
>Woah! There's a significant difference between Crossdresser and Transvestite.
>The crossdresser is a heterosexual male who wears clothes of the opposite sex.
>Transvestite is a bi or homosexual who wears clothes of the opposite sex.
Strange. The one I heard, was that the crossdresser dresses for
personal expression while the transvestite dresses for eroticism.
>If the two words have the same meaning, why do these words exist? Why? The
>community recognize the differences.
There's a lot of words that have similar meanings. It's why
thesauruses were invented.
BTW, another difference I heard between the two, was that one was a
label placed on us by the mainstream community and the other was
self-adopted.
>If walked in the gay pride parade. When I approach a gay man (I'm hetrosexual
>and in drab,{ have no problems associating with the gay community}) I tell him
>I'm transgendered, he'll turn on his heels and march away. I wish I had a
>nickel evert time this has happened anyone in the transgendered community.
I just wish I could understand the disunity between the two groups.
Hell, I wish I could understand the disunity prevalent in the entire
human race.
Hey, maybe you'll get to it here...
>There are 2 reasons why gays HATE the crossdressers.
>1. Crossdressers stopped the passage of the federal anti-homo discrimination
>legislation. Crossdressers say they'll work to halt the law until the words
>"sexual identification" is included. The gays are pissed at the crossdressers
>for doing this.
Sounds petty.
>The gays have no problems with the transvestites going into gay
>clubs. But beware if you say you're a crossdresser. Lesbians flat out don't
>allow crossdressers to enter their bars.
>2. Crossdressers are homophobic. Their support groups have charters which
>forbids homoseaual or transvestites to attend their meetings. (Tri-Ess and
>Renaisance) Plus a myriad of local support groups. Crossdressers and
>Transvestites.
Sounds regional.
Kinda like saying "Canadians live in igloos."
Some do. Many don't.
My apologies if I sound harsh, especially in a support group. It's
just that you've done two things I can't stand: declared absolutes to
things which don't even have true consensus, and overgeneralized to
the extreme.
Glenn,
sometimes known as Angie.
Laura Blake
Chaos) wrote:
>Strange. The one I heard, was that the crossdresser dresses for
>personal expression while the transvestite dresses for eroticism.
Here's a hint for you... Listen to US, not to the cisgendered idiots who
insist upon trying to describe us.
>BTW, another difference I heard between the two, was that one was a
>label placed on us by the mainstream community and the other was
>self-adopted.
Close... "Transvestite" was originated as a psychiatric diagnosis, and
rapidly became a tool of our oppression. Crossdresser was originated to
describe a lifestyle without all the judgemental bullshit attached.
>>If walked in the gay pride parade. When I approach a gay man... I tell him
>>I'm transgendered, he'll turn on his heels and march away.
>I just wish I could understand the disunity between the two groups.
That part's easy... We aren't gay... our issues are different, our
motivations are different, our needs are different. Sofar, our PR campaigns
have been so poorly staged that virtually nobody really understands what we
are all about and, because of this, there is no reason that Gays should be
any less transphobic than the rest of the world.
>Sounds regional.
>Kinda like saying "Canadians live in igloos."
>Some do. Many don't.
Been in Canada all my life... never met one single Canadian who lives in an
igloo. They were, at best, temporary structures put together by travelers
in the far North for one or two day stays. Building an Igloo is like
pitching a tent. The idea that such a dwelling would be habitable for more
than a very short period of time (a few days at most) is ludicrous.
>My apologies if I sound harsh, especially in a support group. It's
>just that you've done two things I can't stand: declared absolutes to
>things which don't even have true consensus, and overgeneralized to
>the extreme.
And this should surprise you, because????
-----
Laura Blake
-----
Nicole Hamilton
> ka...@ecn.ab.ca (Glenn, thine Prophet of Chaos) wrote:
> >Strange. The one I heard, was that the crossdresser
> >dresses for personal expression while the transvestite
> >dresses for eroticism.
>
> Here's a hint for you... Listen to US, not to the cisgendered
> idiots who insist upon trying to describe us.
Hi, Laura! It's nice to see you again. But a question, and apologies if
it seems dumb: I had always had the impression you self-identify
specifically as transgendered, not as a CD or TV, though obviously your
lifestyle does include crossdressing. Have I been mistaken? You live in
the role full-time, which to me is an important distinction between you and
some guy who dresses up every 2nd Tuesday night for a crossdresser club;
but is that distinction as important to you?
Nicki
Jacqueline Rose
coronado wrote:
>
> I have been looking at the various sites and they seem to differentiate
> between a crossdresser and a transvestite but they provide no clear
> explaination as to the difference between the two. Can someone please
> let me know the difference.
I have been watching this thread with some interest. And here is my two
cents worth of my opinion of my life and then I will go back upstairs to
lurk once again.
The only difference that I can point out that is kinda in your face type
of stuff is... I am a woman. I always have been. And all of the
"misunderstandings" in my life have been because society applied "manly"
expectations to me. When really I was a "very, very, tiny and lost
little girl in a big, big, world." My emotional make up is much more
than Happiness. For me it is a matter of life or death. My very
survival seems to depend upon becoming (physically) the gender that I
am. Yes there has been a progression from Cross Dresser to
Transgendered to Transvestite to Transsexual to Tswoman. But with each
progression it has been a matter of acceptance of myself and a
willingness to *allow* the world to see me as the person that I am.
When I cross dressed, there was sexual inspiration because I had the
testosterone (toxic poison to me) *telling* me that I needed a sexual
release. Then when I had enough confidence to become transgendered, I
started to live a life in that manor. I enjoyed my "Mr. Mom" status.
But that wasn't enough. My body still felt wrong. So then I tried
men. They didn't cut it. So I wasn't gay. There was no sexual
"excitement" in being with a man. Plus 98% off them need to grow up.
<g> I then "came out as a transvestite to the small little world around
me. The majority of the people around me didn't seem to mind too much.
They were okay with that. But the greatest exploration of myself, and
the biggest release of the years of denial and fear, was when I could
call myself Transsexual. Then and only then did I begin to start to
learn that I was a *person*. Clothing no longer mattered to me. I can
put on a pair of jeans and be happy and content. There is no sexual
desire or drive for any of it. Clothing is just clothing. In fact
recently I discovered that men's clothing make me feel powerful. It is
funny. I put on a suit from years past and felt powerful. But I was
still a Tswoman. Or more simply, a woman. I was just wearing men's
clothing. So yes there is a progression. And this progression was a
means to the end. A way for me to grow with each step. But I always
new the out come. I just never wanted to admit it. I used to say:
"what am I doing wrong for them to treat me so wrong? Why is this so
hard? What do I need to change?" As I have gone back through the
looking glass and examined my life and the events in it... It is all
because I have always given the cues and felt and acted as a woman. And
this is perplexing and disturbing to the world. It wasn't that they
were treating me wrong per say... it was that I could not function on
the same emotional level as a man. I am by no means saying that woman
can not function as well if not better then men. I am just saying that
woman have a much more peaceful and beautiful way of approaching
things. Now that I am transitioned into a new me... I can see that I
was never a cross dresser, or TransGendered, just mearly finding myself
on a journey that has taken much of a toll on my life. To yearn for the
years that are not mine... childhood years of growing up as a little
girl... there is sadness there. To progress and grow into a woman in my
teen years... there is loss in that... And to blossom into the world as
a beautiful creation of life and the many wonders and magical things of
womanhood, eluded me until now. But, any ways... I love the idea that
all of us can become and belong. For many of the ts community have been
out casts or outsiders that have felt all alone their entire life. So
if that means finding a "temporary" way for the world to learn... then I
am all for it. To make a long story short... I didn't find peace with
myself until I admitted that I was transsexual. Gawd... this next part
is probly going to bring me under fire. I understand that each person
has their own place of happiness and any of these places may be where it
is at. I am mearly speaking for my own journey in my life. I think
that other tswoman may agree with me on these feelings, but then again
that is determined by weather or not that transitioned early in life or
later in life or did it in the TS community or in the "straight"
community. With that said. The only "label" that made sense to me
was Transsexual. When I was a cross dresser, I felt dirty. Driven by
sexual impulses. When I
became gender blurred I felt like an outsider. Fitting into neither.
When I put on the woman and became a transvestite it was hard to go
back. And I still felt like an outsider to woman hood. When I put on
Transsexual, I became who I am. Suddenly it was easier for those around
me to see me as the woman that I am. It was easier for me to "present"
myself as the woman that I am. For the first time in my life, I felt
like I fit in. I began to feel the undercurrents of womanhood that are
very beautiful and shared this with the other woman in my life. The art
of being intimate with women and those around me (with out sex) is very
warm and delightful. The beauty that is in the world that I can finally
see. The love that I can give back to the world. The home that I can
build, which is in every way my expression of the woman that I am. I
can not fathom being anything but who I am. But if the choice is that
of two evils... push the point of these differences to the point of
exclusion from a group of people that could help, or give in to the term
Transgendered, I choose transgendered. But then I wonder if my views
will change down the road? Because I am still discovering myself and
learning who I am. I don't know if I like men or women.(currently I am
with a woman) If I like men then that would mean that I am straight.
If I like women then that would mean that I am a lesbian. So the
battles would then change and a new face would be born. I have known
many Tswoman that have had to "come out" as lesbians. An entirely
different process all together than gender. But one as equally as
difficult. Any ways... I didn't mean to go on for so long. Yes I am
the same, but, different... In the end we all fight for basic human
rights. But as it goes for Tswoman, many of us don't even have the
basic rights of the gay and lesbian community have. We are less than
nothing. IMHO, a beginning to the end in the progression towards the
rights of all would be an acceptable "step" for me and the ts
community. But only a step... For life has given me many challenges,
and I could only take them on as any woman would. Through the eyes of a
woman I progress.
Jackie
Glenn, thine Prophet of Chaos
wrote:
>On Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:53:18 GMT, ka...@ecn.ab.ca (Glenn, thine Prophet of
>Chaos) wrote:
>>Strange. The one I heard, was that the crossdresser dresses for
>>personal expression while the transvestite dresses for eroticism.
>
>Here's a hint for you... Listen to US, not to the cisgendered idiots who
>insist upon trying to describe us.
When looking at definitions, I look to both.
Helps to avoid miscommunications.
>>BTW, another difference I heard between the two, was that one was a
>>label placed on us by the mainstream community and the other was
>>self-adopted.
>
>Close... "Transvestite" was originated as a psychiatric diagnosis, and
>rapidly became a tool of our oppression. Crossdresser was originated to
>describe a lifestyle without all the judgemental bullshit attached.
I thank you for the clarification.
>>>If walked in the gay pride parade. When I approach a gay man... I tell him
>>>I'm transgendered, he'll turn on his heels and march away.
>>I just wish I could understand the disunity between the two groups.
>
>That part's easy... We aren't gay... our issues are different, our
>motivations are different, our needs are different. Sofar, our PR campaigns
>have been so poorly staged that virtually nobody really understands what we
>are all about and, because of this, there is no reason that Gays should be
>any less transphobic than the rest of the world.
I'm still stuck with the notion that victims of oppression
should/would be less tolerant regarding the oppression of others.
This is why the issue confuses me.
>>Sounds regional.
>>Kinda like saying "Canadians live in igloos."
>>Some do. Many don't.
>
>Been in Canada all my life... never met one single Canadian who lives in an
>igloo. They were, at best, temporary structures put together by travelers
>in the far North for one or two day stays. Building an Igloo is like
>pitching a tent. The idea that such a dwelling would be habitable for more
>than a very short period of time (a few days at most) is ludicrous.
Though I could be wrong, I've heard of nomadic tribes (elsewhere) who
pretty much live in tents.
Of course, I'd be surprised if any of them still do.
>>My apologies if I sound harsh, especially in a support group. It's
>>just that you've done two things I can't stand: declared absolutes to
>>things which don't even have true consensus, and overgeneralized to
>>the extreme.
>
>And this should surprise you, because????
I wasn't surprised.
Merely disturbed.
Glenn, thine Prophet of Chaos
wrote:
>On Mon, 07 Jun 1999 10:09:00 GMT, ka...@ecn.ab.ca (Glenn, thine Prophet of
>Chaos) wrote:
>>I'm still stuck with the notion that victims of oppression
>>should/would be less tolerant regarding the oppression of others.
>>This is why the issue confuses me.
>
>Why?
The old cliche about the enemy of my enemy.
We fight the same people as they do; and have the same judgements
thrown against us (most common one I hear, is the "it's an unnatural
abomination against <insert monotheistical deity>")
The one idea that made any sense to me in explaining this, is
frustration and resentment at being constantly lumped together by the
'mainstream' society.
Which still seems petty, but it's what I've come to expect from
humanity.
(Snip)
>You should not be surprised that people --even members of other minority
>groups-- are turned off by things and people they don't understand. Most
>often they've heard only the worst about us, and know no better.
Very little actually surprises me. I expect things like this.
I don't understand why they happen, but I expect them to.
alof...@gmail.com
> Woah! There's a significant difference between Crossdresser and Transvestite.
> The crossdresser is a heterosexual male who wears clothes of the opposite sex.
> Transvestite is a bi or homosexual who wears clothes of the opposite sex.
>
> community recognize the differences.
>
> nickel evert time this has happened anyone in the transgendered community.
> crossdresser.
>
> 1. Crossdressers stopped the passage of the federal anti-homo discrimination
> legislation. Crossdressers say they'll work to halt the law until the words
> "sexual identification" is included. The gays are pissed at the crossdressers
> allow crossdressers to enter their bars.
> 2. Crossdressers are homophobic. Their support groups have charters which
> forbids homoseaual or transvestites to attend their meetings. (Tri-Ess and
> Renaisance) Plus a myriad of local support groups. Crossdressers and
> Transvestites.
>
> and don't understand the politics of the gay and transgender communities.
>
> There's a tremendous differences between Crossdressers and Transvestites.
>
> This has been a public service announcment.
Transgender you identify as the opposite sex regardless of clothing.
Gay guy dressing in women's clothing....drag queen.
alof...@gmail.com
> >Transvestite is a bi or homosexual who wears clothes of the opposite sex.
> >
>
> Hirschfield, if I'm not mistaken) to describe someone who dresses in the
> clothes of the opposite sex, it has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
>
> >hetrosexual
> >and in drab,{ have no problems associating with the gay community}) I tell
> >him
> >I'm transgendered, he'll turn on his heels and march away. I wish I had a
> >nickel evert time this has happened anyone in the transgendered community.
>
> Carolina LGBT Pride March, the first TG person to do so! I received incredible
> support from numerous gay men and women and was proud to represent the entire
> LGBT community, not just my TG brothers and sisters. (I'm a CD, by the way.
> If you're into labels.)
>
> >inclusive meaning that covers Gay, Lesbians, Bi, TS, TV, and CD's. The
> >narrow
> >meaning of transgender is used among the "community." When I approach a gay
> >and
> >say I'm transgendered, it means I'm either a transsexual, transvestite, or
> >crossdresser.
>
> gender boundaries, but does not hinge on sexual orientation. It also can mean
> a person who lives full time as opposite their birth gender without having
> surgery.
>
> >1. Crossdressers stopped the passage of the federal anti-homo discrimination
> >legislation. Crossdressers say they'll work to halt the law until the words
> >"sexual identification" is included. The gays are pissed at the crossdressers
> >for doing this. The gays have no problems with the transvestites going into
> >gay
> >clubs. But beware if you say you're a crossdresser. Lesbians flat out don't
> >allow crossdressers to enter their bars.
>
> not been voted on yet. Work is still being done on it and while some groups
> don't want "Transgender" to be a part of it, other groups are working to make
> sure it's added. By the way, this legislation is supposed to be for all of us,
> not just the "homos".
>
> >forbids homoseaual or transvestites to attend their meetings. (Tri-Ess and
> >Renaisance) Plus a myriad of local support groups. Crossdressers and
> >Transvestites.
>
> already stated, your definition of CD & TV isn't quite up to snuff.
>
> >loop
> >and don't understand the politics of the gay and transgender communities.
> >
> >There's a tremendous differences between Crossdressers and Transvestites.
> >
> >Anita
> >This has been a public service announcment.
> >
>
> National Lampoon Radio Hour) was a Public Dis-service Annoucement. It's
> misinformation like this that continues to tear our community apart from the
> inside. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, Stupidity is pride in that lack of
> knowledge. Ignorance can be excused, Stupidity and Bigotry can not.
>
> Jessica Britton,
> cofounder, Phoenix Transgender Support
alof...@gmail.com
> I want to thank all of you for your thoughtful responses. I'm saving them. They
> are important to me. It gives me feedback on my communication skills, a
> different view of the topic. I analyze these for insight. I do not take the
> replies lightly, but not seriously.
>
> Some of you pointed out my use of blanket terms. I agree with you. This was
> unfair to these people. I will make attempt to think about this before I
> write.
>
> community. I'm hearten to hear of such good news. I hope this continues and
> grows. I really do. We need to support each other
> in all aspects of the issues we face: discrimination, laws that protect us from
> hate crimes, work issues, and destroying myths and stereotypes that mislead the
> transgender community. This cause problems." What?" you say? A gay female
> impersonator gave me his view of the transvestite community. He said that in
> the South. (U.S.A) ( I'm talking to people from all over the world), the
> culture is oppressive, therefore the community has to circle the wagons and
> has to be tight togeather and support each other. Hence, they become best of
> This is at the "file and rank" individuals. They tend to form lasting
> friendships. But, at the activist levels, attitudes seem to be different.
>
> information that there was a rift between executives of the different support
> this war. The major players in this melodrama have left the county. Those of us
> who left have to pick up the pieces and mend fences. We have formed the Rainbow
> Alliance. I have participated in the ground level executive stearing group. We
> outlined the goals of what the community needed and direction to achieve it. I
> represented the Transgender community. At the beginning of the meeting I got
> feedback of the nature like, "Who are you and what are you doing here?"
> I kept a postive attitude and quietly presented our views and concerns of the
> transgender people. At the end of the meeting I was relieved that I was invited
> to return for further meeting and represent the transgender commuinty. There
> will be a summit in August where every group in the county to discuss how we
> are to deal with the media, setup a public access television program for the
> community, speakers bureau, out reach programs for teens and senior citzens. I
> will be the guest speaker for the transgendered people. We feel that finally we
> will be heard and given a chance to express our views. I'm very pleased that we
> are getting together and become friends.
>
> Another comment was the denotation and connotation of the words transvestite
> and crossdresser. I submit the book, "Fractured English," by Richard Lederer.
> He contends that the English language is a dymamic, ever change form of
> communication. The recient issue of the Oxford dictionary introduce 53 new
> words (mostly techinical and street slang)
> The terms used many years ago do not hold the same meaning today. So to those
> that the scholars lag behind the rapid changes of society let alone the
> transgender community.
>
> responses and comment on them later.
>
> Hugs
>
> Anita
> I hope I spelled everthing correctlly
tina.mar...@gmail.com
stephani...@gmail.com
> I have been looking at the various sites and they seem to differentiate
> between a crossdresser and a transvestite but they provide no clear
> explaination as to the difference between the two. Can someone please
> let me know the difference.
