What do gays and lesbians think of T*Girls
Mimi CD TV
http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/Salon/3500/survey.html
--
Teddy Bear Hugs, Mimi CD TV (mimi...@geocities.com)
Visit Mimi's Menagerie @
http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/Salon/3500/
A Proud Member of the Glamour Girls Sorority!
"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in the bud was
more painful than the risk it took to blossom." -- Anais Nin
Please sponsor me in AIDS Ride 1999 @
http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/Salon/3500/aids_pledge.html
Jane
>See the results of my survey @
>http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/Salon/3500/survey.html
You have apparently closed down your survey, so I could
not reply there. My feeling, and that of most lesbians
I know, is that all women are welcome in women's bars,
but men are not. Not even men dressed as women, or men
accompanied by women. The bi women I know generally
are more accepting, but even many of them like women's
space to be reserved to women. Women's bars have no
legal right to refuse entry to men, and that is
probably as it should be, but my friends and I
nevertheless generally choose not to stay when men come
in. It is hard on the bar owners, but there seems to
be no good way around it. Women have invaded men's
space because that's where power is brokered. Few
women, and almost no lesbians, go into men's space
because they enjoy it. But men seem to enjoy coming
into women's space, and they don't seem to "get it"
that the women who are there, are there to escape the
presence of men! Or maybe they do get it but just
don't care. Or maybe it even gives them a little
thrill, like a sublimated rape. I wish they would go
somewhere else.
That's my response to your survey.
Jane
fofol
>See the results of my survey @
>http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/Salon/3500/survey.html
>
Do you have track of how many lesbians answered ? Only one statement is
clearly from a lesbian, the rest is either of clearly male gay or unclear
(anonymous) origin.
I'm wondering : are lesbians disinterested ? (If they are, are they because
they don't perceive us as competition, or are they precisely because they do
(which is possible having in mind your little CD/GG scenario) ?)
Or is this just due to fuzzy statistics ?
Hugs, fofol
___________________________
WOW !
I feel good !
James Brown
TGirlMardi
simply because people *choose* to answer them and that, IMO skews the
results/conclusions irretreivably in several key ways.
Personal anecdote says gays and lesbians who have a fervent identity as such
think TS`s are delusional men/women according to their social sexual
assignment. *That* is ALL that counts for them. The genitals one was *raised*
with.
Note: I *think* the "party line" is what is being asked for here, and *that*
is determined by exactly the fervently IDed people I speak of; it is _they_
who define 8any* movement or organization and _their_ attitudes which must be
reckoned with politically, not the (always) minority of less dogmatic folks.
*replys and/or comments you really want to make sure I read should be emailed
since I sometimesI can't check NG-land regularly, but I do check email. I will
respond via the NG, not by e-mail. This is not a solicitation for penpals. *
Norman Schmidt
I do have a problem with your definition of man and woman. Since I am
(or at least think so) transsexual (male to female) I do not consider
myself a man even if I look like one. I like to dress in women´s clothes
but I would like to have the body to fill it in correctly. In addition
to that, I am sexually interested only in women, so I am technically
lesbian. Would you welcome somebody like me (at this time, when i look
like a crossdressing male)? Should I wear a T-Shirt saying "I like women
AND want to be one" to show my attitude? I do not want to offend you at
all, I am interested in your opinion!
I did not want to write to the newagroup, since de.alt.soc.transgendered
is a German newsgroup where usually German is spoken. You can reply
there if you want, I will read it.
Jane schrieb:
>
> "Mimi CD TV" <kn...@nospam.erols.com> wrote:
>
> >See the results of my survey @
> >http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/Salon/3500/survey.html
>
> You have apparently closed down your survey, so I could
> not reply there. My feeling, and that of most lesbians
> I know, is that all women are welcome in women's bars,
> but men are not. Not even men dressed as women, or men
> accompanied by women. The bi women I know generally
> are more accepting, but even many of them like women's
> space to be reserved to women. Women's bars have no
> legal right to refuse entry to men, and that is
> probably as it should be, but my friends and I
> nevertheless generally choose not to stay when men come
> in. It is hard on the bar owners, but there seems to
> be no good way around it. Women have invaded men's
> space because that's where power is brokered. Few
> women, and almost no lesbians, go into men's space
> because they enjoy it. But men seem to enjoy coming
> into women's space, and they don't seem to "get it"
> that the women who are there, are there to escape the
> presence of men! Or maybe they do get it but just
> don't care. Or maybe it even gives them a little
> thrill, like a sublimated rape. I wish they would go
> somewhere else.
>
> That's my response to your survey.
>
> Jane
Bye, Norman/Anja.
--
--
Norman Schmidt Universität Erlangen-Nürnberg
cand.chem.
mailto:sch...@naa.net
Jane
>I do have a problem with your definition of man and woman. Since I am
>(or at least think so) transsexual (male to female) I do not consider
>myself a man even if I look like one. I like to dress in women´s clothes
>but I would like to have the body to fill it in correctly. In addition
>to that, I am sexually interested only in women, so I am technically
>lesbian. Would you welcome somebody like me (at this time, when i look
>like a crossdressing male)? Should I wear a T-Shirt saying "I like women
>AND want to be one" to show my attitude? I do not want to offend you at
>all, I am interested in your opinion!
>
>I did not want to write to the newagroup, since de.alt.soc.transgendered
>is a German newsgroup where usually German is spoken. You can reply
>there if you want, I will read it.
Women generally do not go where they are not welcome,
except for political reasons. Few women will go to a
club to enjoy themselves if it makes others there
unhappy. It is just the way we are raised, and
lesbians seem to be even more sensitive to this than
other women. In my experience, this is as true in
Europe as in the USA and Canada.
People who are men on the inside (that is to say: who
behave like men) will not be welcome in women's space,
even if they have gone through all the hormones and
surgery and are legally female.
People who are (still) men on the outside but women on
the inside will avoid women's space because, like other
women, they would not want to cause other people to
feel uncomfortable.
People who are women both inside and out will
generally be welcome in women's space, no matter what
kind of chromosomes or sexual orientation they have.
You must decide into which group you fit.
(Die Übersetzung laße ich in Deinen Hände)
Jane
Leana Straen
wrote:
>Women generally do not go where they are not welcome,
>except for political reasons. Few women will go to a
>club to enjoy themselves if it makes others there
>unhappy. It is just the way we are raised, and
>lesbians seem to be even more sensitive to this than
>other women. In my experience, this is as true in
>Europe as in the USA and Canada.
>
>People who are men on the inside (that is to say: who
>behave like men) will not be welcome in women's space,
>even if they have gone through all the hormones and
>surgery and are legally female.
>
>People who are (still) men on the outside but women on
>the inside will avoid women's space because, like other
>women, they would not want to cause other people to
>feel uncomfortable.
>
>People who are women both inside and out will
>generally be welcome in women's space, no matter what
>kind of chromosomes or sexual orientation they have.
>
>You must decide into which group you fit.
(Excuse my bad english, but my german's even worse..)
Your generalizations don't seem right to me. That people have to
behave according to your opinion to be looked at as women can't be
right.
I know many man, and i also know that they aren't interested in
violating other peoples space.
So therefore, are they women?
Sure enough you can't be the person to judge others people gender (i
guess,i'm repeating myself...)
adding: i respect others poeple decisions to keep to themselves, and
every man i know thinks the same.
Lea
Lola Cola
You espouse what would seem to be a lesbian separatist point of view.
I wouldn't even begin to argue those politics with you; you are
certainly welcome to see things however you choose. But i will say that
your viewpoint is *certainly* not representative of all or even the
majority of lesbians. The more modern and prevailing attitude embraces
diversity, foregoes pre-judgement, and looks for quality and potential
friendships in people of all kinds. That's why the rainbow flag has more
than one color... and even lesbian separatists get to be part of the
family. :>
Lola
Jane wrote:
>
> Norman/Anja Schmidt <sch...@naa.net> wrote:
>
> >I do have a problem with your definition of man and woman. Since I am
> >(or at least think so) transsexual (male to female) I do not consider
> >myself a man even if I look like one. I like to dress in women´s clothes
> >but I would like to have the body to fill it in correctly. In addition
> >to that, I am sexually interested only in women, so I am technically
> >lesbian. Would you welcome somebody like me (at this time, when i look
> >like a crossdressing male)? Should I wear a T-Shirt saying "I like women
> >AND want to be one" to show my attitude? I do not want to offend you at
> >all, I am interested in your opinion!
> >
> >I did not want to write to the newagroup, since de.alt.soc.transgendered
> >is a German newsgroup where usually German is spoken. You can reply
> >there if you want, I will read it.
>
> Women generally do not go where they are not welcome,
> except for political reasons. Few women will go to a
> club to enjoy themselves if it makes others there
> unhappy. It is just the way we are raised, and
> lesbians seem to be even more sensitive to this than
> other women. In my experience, this is as true in
> Europe as in the USA and Canada.
>
> People who are men on the inside (that is to say: who
> behave like men) will not be welcome in women's space,
> even if they have gone through all the hormones and
> surgery and are legally female.
>
> People who are (still) men on the outside but women on
> the inside will avoid women's space because, like other
> women, they would not want to cause other people to
> feel uncomfortable.
>
> People who are women both inside and out will
> generally be welcome in women's space, no matter what
> kind of chromosomes or sexual orientation they have.
>
> You must decide into which group you fit.
>
Jane
> You espouse what would seem to be a lesbian separatist point of view.
>I wouldn't even begin to argue those politics with you; you are
>certainly welcome to see things however you choose. But i will say that
>your viewpoint is *certainly* not representative of all or even the
>majority of lesbians. The more modern and prevailing attitude embraces
>diversity, foregoes pre-judgement, and looks for quality and potential
>friendships in people of all kinds. That's why the rainbow flag has more
>than one color... and even lesbian separatists get to be part of the
>family. :>
You must never have met any real separatists, then. :)
Compared to them, dykes like me are the very image of
laid-back tolerance. We may strongly prefer the
company of other women, and have few or no men friends,
but we also choose not to support the narrow-mindedness
of the Michigan Women's Music Festival organizers, we
give money and energy to anti-AIDS work, and we don't
do chromosome checks before deciding who is a woman.
To real separatists, that makes us near-total sell-outs
to the patriarchy, scarcely different from women who
sleep with men or work for the CIA.
Jane
Anna & Heike Boedeker
> not reply there. My feeling, and that of most lesbians
> I know, is that all women are welcome in women's bars,
obviously the "providing some safe space" idea, which undoubtedly is
legitimate.
> but men are not. Not even men dressed as women, or men
well, that's where the problem starts... a person whom you (or i, too --
i'm by far not always politically correct in my assessments, though i
know when to better bite my tongue) might perceive as a "man dressed as
a woman" might see xirself different from such an assessment...
consequently, feel badly hurt... and, under circumstances, not exactly
be suffering this too gracefully... actually, this can trigger very
desparate reactions for reasons i'm addressing below.
> accompanied by women. The bi women I know generally
> are more accepting, but even many of them like women's
> space to be reserved to women. Women's bars have no
an observation i've made, too.
> be no good way around it. Women have invaded men's
> space because that's where power is brokered. Few
dunno 'bout such generalizations... might read as if they did it only
b/c they were lusting for "power"... which would be one of those sad
caricatures where patrist and feminist pitfalls fusion so strikingly
homogenously :-\ "power" also is one of those big words, a bit like
freedom -- what from? and what for?
> women, and almost no lesbians, go into men's space
> because they enjoy it. But men seem to enjoy coming
> into women's space, and they don't seem to "get it"
> that the women who are there, are there to escape the
> presence of men! Or maybe they do get it but just
> don't care. Or maybe it even gives them a little
> thrill, like a sublimated rape. I wish they would go
> somewhere else.
nope, it's not about enjoying, not to speak of abysmally sadistic
thrills. "real-life" women's space to (some) men, and especially
autogynecophilic CD & TS (in contrast to androphilic TS who have had a
sissy boy childhood indeed involving girls as *peers*), is
*phantasmatic* "mother's space"... in fetal psychological terms:
involving the oceanic feelings associated w/ holding uterus imagery...
it is important to note that this is an environmental variable
(circumstant term). in contrast, the exclusion of men by women from a
safe space (again the holding uterus imagery), is based on the poisoning
placental "bad object" imagery (an actant term) in a constellation
involving the umbilico-phallic connective.
w/ androphilic TS like me (my dx of mixed gonadal dysgenesis
notwithstanding) you're not likely to get into that type of trouble, as
long before it comes to that, imprisoning uterus imagery will have been
triggered and resulted in escape... (you betcha my interest in the
survey which started this thread tends towards zero... however, i do
cultivate a fascination for how people interact, so...)
uh... btw, what's the stance you're taking on f2m TS?
all the best,
heike boedeker
phantasy factory
http://www.sonic.net/~boedeker/heike/index.htm
Sarenka
<36f3c475....@news.mindspring.com>...
> People who are men on the inside (that is to say: who
> behave like men) will not be welcome in women's space,
> even if they have gone through all the hormones and
> surgery and are legally female.
I don't understand any TS/TG lesbian. I used to call myself heterosexual
too. I used to call myself bisexual. But something changed lately. I'm
still attracted to women, but suddenly I realized I seek only a
relationship with man. That's because most women are so disgusting "on the
inside", to use our friend's Jane phrase, that their "outside" doesn't
really matter. And it's not their fault. It's because of our schizophrenic
culture which mixes both 19th century and 21st century patterns. Women have
learnt to take what's good for them from both. So we have many extreme
feminist women, who on the one hand hate men, shout that the world without
men would be a paradise, etc. And on the other hand they still want to be
adored by men, still want men to be kind for them, and still want men to
treat them like poor, innocent, sensitive beings. This is unfortunately
impossible. Every process in nature tend to the state of balance. Either
there is a world which is based on 19th century culture, or there is a
world where men and women are equal in every aspect of their lives. In this
21st century world, which I believe is our future, there is no place for
any gender/sex boundaries. There will be no women/men only space. There
will be no women/men only job. There will be no women/men only clothes you
should wear, etc. These is really feminists view on life, whether you want
it or not!
One thing more. Jane is, as I understand, a lesbian. Again because of our
idiotic culture, lesbians are far more tolerated than gay and trans people.
That's because woman's body is the main sexual object in all media that
surrounds us. There's a woman's body you should be excited by in a
commercial, a woman's body in a common movie (not mentioning porno movies
that obviously show only the body of a woman), a woman's body on the cover
of the magazine, a woman's body on a poster you see when you go to work, a
woman's body advertising new model of a car, etc. No wonder not only
lesbians are more tolerated, but also most of men are masturbating having
some lesbian alike fantasies. I don't know if the woman's body domination
is because of man's sexual fantasies domination or lack of woman's sexual
fantasies about men. I don't care. All I know is that lesbians don't
understand our problems, because of it. We suffer much more before we
finally decide to come out. And if we do we still have to suffer. And
lesbians just simply join their hands and walk through the center of the
city, without hearing any comments. They don't really have to go to any
club to kiss each other, or to hold themselves in each others arms. Now
having such life do they care about gay or trans people problems. Of course
not. Why should they. They were raised by the culture that says "man helps
poor, fragile woman", and treats phrase "woman helps poor, fragile man" as
a joke. Of course that does not stop them from being extreme feminists as
well.
Will this schizophrenia* ever stop. I think the situation is changing. The
more women are equal to men, the more men see them as partners or even as
rivals. But there is no place for caressing poor little girl then.
* The schizophrenia is not a word that describes the state of
lesbian feminist mind. It describes the state of our culture.
Anna & Heike Boedeker
> I don't understand any TS/TG lesbian. I used to call myself heterosexual
-? what's the problem?
> too. I used to call myself bisexual. But something changed lately. I'm
> still attracted to women, but suddenly I realized I seek only a
> relationship with man. That's because most women are so disgusting "on the
> inside", to use our friend's Jane phrase, that their "outside" doesn't
while i neither would want to sleep w/ neither a man nor a woman who,
despite some attractive outer appearance, turns out to be quite
assholish, i have difficulties w/ such a generic statement. guess one
lover at a time will do for me under normal circumstances, "most" are
uninteresting to me anyway (and i to them).
> really matter. And it's not their fault. It's because of our schizophrenic
> culture which mixes both 19th century and 21st century patterns. Women have
groups (cultures may not be that monolithic, though) indeed can display
pathologies as there are collective defense phantasies just as there are
individual ones -- and in both cases people are tragic figures in the
classical antique sense: innocently guilty. however, i doubt it's
schizophrenia, and certainly it is not arising from blending temporally
defined "patterns".
> impossible. Every process in nature tend to the state of balance. Either
> there is a world which is based on 19th century culture, or there is a
yuck!!! apart from the fact i hardly would label a Victorian type of
culture "balanced".
> world where men and women are equal in every aspect of their lives. In this
sounds definitely better :-)
> lesbians are more tolerated, but also most of men are masturbating having
> some lesbian alike fantasies. I don't know if the woman's body domination
uh... you mean like... most hetbiomales were wannabe-lesbians?
which meant that my ex was not just joking when w/ a grin saying to me
that the two of us were lesbian gays -? :]
> finally decide to come out. And if we do we still have to suffer. And
> lesbians just simply join their hands and walk through the center of the
> city, without hearing any comments. They don't really have to go to any
> club to kiss each other, or to hold themselves in each others arms. Now
i don't think many lesbians will find themselves in this description. as
you have written, lesbians aren't taken seriously b/c they still are
thought of as "available" to heteroguys. can't you imagine that alone
this fact can feel outspoken cr*ppy? not to speak of worse things going
down...
> rivals. But there is no place for caressing poor little girl then.
heck, what is wrong w/ caressing? i think being quite deliberate w/ this
is the best way to help kids avoid growing from neglected brats into
passive-aggressive adults (and in the same way analsadistically abusing
their kids). and amongst adults it's definitely nice, too :-)
best,
heike
phantasy factory
http://www.sonic.net/~boedeker/heike/index.htm
Jane
>w/ androphilic TS like me (my dx of mixed gonadal dysgenesis
Please forgive me if this seems a stupid or intrusive
question. But: if you are an "androphilic" TS ...who
is Anna?
>uh... btw, what's the stance you're taking on f2m TS?
They are men, and not welcome in women's space.
Jane
Sarenka
wrote<36f6215e....@news.mindspring.com>...
As I said below in my post I don't understand TS/TG lesbian. If people like
Jane hate men so much, that they see you and f2m as well as men, why do you
come to their clubs? What for? If they insult you permanently, why do you
get back to them like some stupid moth hitting the bulb pointlessly. I
understand there are some people who hate other sex. I had such a period in
my life when I hated women. I usually don't like the situation when there
are only women around me. Maybe Jane has a similar problem. Leave her
alone, let her live and breathe in her "women only space".
Anna & Heike Boedeker
>
> Please forgive me if this seems a stupid or intrusive
> question. But: if you are an "androphilic" TS ...who
> is Anna?
my adoptive mom.
what had you thought? <laughing gleefully>
best,
heike
Jane
Naja, das kennst Du schon. :-)
Mistress Angela
>>uh... btw, what's the stance you're taking on f2m TS?
>
>They are men, and not welcome in women's space.
>
>Jane
I'm TS and definitely NOT a male. I was born with a physical defect to my
body which is being corrected by surgery and hormone therapy. I frequent gay
bars, lesbian bars and str8 pubs and clubs as well as occasionally going to
the TV/TS clubs. I have NEVER had any problems with the lesbians I have
encountered, in fact I have had nothing but support from them (and wonderful
compliments).
I seem to remember that not so long in the past lesbians and gays wanted to
be accepted 'anywhere' as human beings and if people knew they were such, it
should be a case of 'so what'. Do you not feel that if that was the case for
gay/lesbian people the same should be set for TG people.
Being a separatist, does that mean that you think you are better than
everyone else? I don't think anyone is better than anyone else in this
world, merely different. After all, you are 'different' to the next
separatist, you have a common link, being lesbian, that is the same as a
train spotter having the same link as another train spotter but it doesn't
make one better than the other.
Well, I said my piece, now I'm off out with a couple of my 'lesbian' friends
who I don't even refer to as lesbian.
Angela
Anna & Heike Boedeker
> >>uh... btw, what's the stance you're taking on f2m TS?
> >
> >They are men, and not welcome in women's space.
...
> I'm TS and definitely NOT a male. I was born with a physical defect to my
Angela, wait a second... i had asked Jane about female-to-*M*A*L*E*...
also called trans*men*... ok?
you might think i must be quite tricksterish to do that, which i
certainly am otherwise, but, in this case, where it was not so clear to
which extend source vs. target gender did "count", i genuinely was
interested in how Jane viewed things w/ f2m. you know, lesbians at times
also can be *very* interested in both f2m and m2f, or also intersexed
persons... both for queer theoretical and more personal reasons...
> body which is being corrected by surgery and hormone therapy. I frequent gay
good for you.
i wasn't that lucky off... having been born w/ a perfectly healthy body,
though stepparents and whitecoats went nuts over my perfectly healthy
what they called ambiguous genitalia.
as i had subtly hinted my personal problem more is having internalized
too much of being viewed a freak which left me deprived of any real
sense of identity and hardly ever prospect of ever becoming able to lead
a life really worth living. which therapeutically makes it more of an
issue of several hundreds hours of psychoanalysis. however, this is not
something limited to intersexed and transpersons, though it w/ them
might impress so strikingly. i may have a bit loose mouth, but i do
think that much of both female and male socialization is nothing less
than psychomutilation.
> bars, lesbian bars and str8 pubs and clubs as well as occasionally going to
sounds like such fun :-)
> the TV/TS clubs. I have NEVER had any problems with the lesbians I have
> encountered, in fact I have had nothing but support from them (and wonderful
> compliments).
me neither. fact is, i also don't have problems w/ Jane :-)
> I seem to remember that not so long in the past lesbians and gays wanted to
> be accepted 'anywhere' as human beings and if people knew they were such, it
> should be a case of 'so what'. Do you not feel that if that was the case for
> gay/lesbian people the same should be set for TG people.
well, this is a more delicate affair than most of political activism
will bear:
>>Homosexuals and heterosexuals all live in the same world and share much in common, but the homosexual world has distinctive qualities which are not part of the everyday heterosexual world.<<
(Whitam, Frederick I. & Robin M. Mathy: Male Homosexuality in Four
Societies: Brazil, Guatemala, the Philippines, and the United States.
New York, NY: Praeger 1985: 82)
you might consider reading:
Morgenthaler, Fritz (1988): Homosexuality, Heterosexuality, Perversion.
Analytic Pr.
which is one of the most insightful works ever on the topic.
as for "so what"... when i started telling one of my guys about my
**traumata suffered** and all he responded was that he found it great i
so openly could deal w/ it i really went bananas... empathy is something
else... sheesh...
> Being a separatist, does that mean that you think you are better than
> everyone else?
why assume the worst case scenario?
you know, at times it's just nice to close the door and lay your feet on
the table w/ people whom you know you can trust. wouldn't even think of
calling a person w/ a need for a safe space a separatist.
all the best,
heike the terrible
If I walk like a duck, look like a duck, quack like a duck, but still
can't fly, chances are you're not exactly the greatest biologist who
ever walked the surface of this Earth, and I am a penguin.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
phantasy factory
http://www.sonic.net/~boedeker/heike/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
fofol
> i do
>think that much of both female and male socialization is nothing less
>than psychomutilation.
How true !
>If I walk like a duck, look like a duck, quack like a duck, but still
>can't fly, chances are you're not exactly the greatest biologist who
>ever walked the surface of this Earth, and I am a penguin.
This one's just great ....
Hugs and kisses,
Johanna
> [...]
Good afternoon.
This is posted from someone in de.alt.soc.transgendered.
1. de.alt.soc.transgendered is a german-speaking Newsgroup.
If you stay here, please use german language to discuss.
Or please remove the "de.alt.soc.transgendered" from
your "Newsgroups" - Header.
2. For the charta of de.alt.soc.transgendered refer to
de.newusers.infos.
********************************************************************
3. It would be good if you used your newsreader's "Follow-up"-option
if you crosspost !
********************************************************************
Johanna
--
Texte von Johanna müssen Sie langsam lesen, wie als sprächen Sie
jedes Wort mit der Zunge aus - denn langsam ist es geschrieben.
Lesen Sie nochmal nun.
Anna & Heike Boedeker
> This is posted from someone in de.alt.soc.transgendered.
<deliberately snipped>
Na bravo, das war ja mal wieder ein veritables Capricioso in Sachen
Weltbürgertum.
BTW, what the f*** is a "Follow-up"-option? Finde ich in Netscape 4.5
naemlich nicht.
Kitaakitamattsinohpowaawa,
Heike
anon-...@anon.twwells.com
In article <36F44AFD...@netcologne.de> you wrote:
+------
| Jane wrote:
|
| > women, and almost no lesbians, go into men's space
| > because they enjoy it. But men seem to enjoy coming
| > into women's space, and they don't seem to "get it"
| > that the women who are there, are there to escape the
| > presence of men! Or maybe they do get it but just
| > don't care. Or maybe it even gives them a little
| > thrill, like a sublimated rape. I wish they would go
| > somewhere else.
+------
ALL of the above?
This is the "T* invasion of space as rape" paradigm set forth by
Janice Raymond 'acourse... based on a 1972-ish story in Playboy which
clearly seemed written by an autogynephillic male. Considering the
email I get as a "sex researcher" - I wish that they would go
somewhere else too.
+------
| nope, it's not about enjoying, not to speak of abysmally sadistic
| thrills. "real-life" women's space to (some) men, and especially
| autogynecophilic CD & TS (in contrast to androphilic TS who have had a
| sissy boy childhood indeed involving girls as *peers*), is
| *phantasmatic* "mother's space"... in fetal psychological terms:
| involving the oceanic feelings associated w/ holding uterus imagery...
| it is important to note that this is an environmental variable
| (circumstant term). in contrast, the exclusion of men by women from a
| safe space (again the holding uterus imagery), is based on the
| poisoning placental "bad object" imagery (an actant term) in a
| constellation involving the umbilico-phallic connective.
+------
Or like I would state: Early seperation trauma could establish some
metabolic reaction substrate which becomes vectored and elaborated
upon both further metabolically and then "mirrored" in
behavioral/cultural "reflective paradigms". The channeling into sexual
release functions to decode trauma both metabolically and
symbolically.
As obviousely, early trauma cannot be "talked" out of existence if it
is metabolically encoded... TSs would "naturally" feel that it is
"biologically inate". Models like this, or similarly and related
concepts as Teresa's alloreactivity findings, simply don't provide a
magic bullet of cultural legitimacy.
The problem I have with categorial/descriptive understanding is that
it tends to establish and then reinforce "current knowledge system"
taxonomies: men describe other men as "feminine men who are attracted
to other men" or as "men who are attracted to themselves
paraphilliated into women"... etc. IOW - while I subscribe to the
behavioral taxonomy I object to the social implications which allow
men of priveledge to control the bodies of "non-male" entities.
+------
| w/ androphilic TS like me
+------
LOL. "I blame-ah myself" :-) Please don't start calling yourself AGP
Heike or you'll totally screw up my AGP/wannabe gestalts.
BTW - are you and Ray pals now? The Clarke really *does*
treat trannies "PRU style" there and I'm sure he Ken or Maxine will never
listen to me if *I* draw that to their attention. :-)
vilpitomasti,
Dr. Ariika Aeirt
--
For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
he...@anon.twwells.com -- for an automatically returned help message
ad...@anon.twwells.com -- for the service's administrator
ano...@anon.twwells.com -- anonymous mail to the administrator
boed...@netcologne.de
anon-...@anon.twwells.com wrote:
> As obviousely, early trauma cannot be "talked" out of existence if it
well, who should do that "talking cure"? the very same parents who have
traumatized the kid anyway?
> is metabolically encoded... TSs would "naturally" feel that it is
> "biologically inate".
and how do you explain their obvious "acting out" behavior?
> The problem I have with categorial/descriptive understanding is that
> it tends to establish and then reinforce "current knowledge system"
"categorial/descriptive" as opposed to what?
> LOL. "I blame-ah myself" :-)
what's it got to do w/ blaming? as i had explained on Sexnet, IS hardly ever
can go w/ the heterosexual solution to the oedipal drama as it's crucially
dependent on psycho-morphological congruency (yes, i'm speaking of cissies
here). you can't maximize a difference that's not there. so what is left is
the homosexual and the paraphilic solution.
the rest is spending a few 100 hrs on the couch 30 yrs later and finding out
about what you once have picked.
> Please don't start calling yourself AGP Heike
you know i'd do *A*N*Y*T*H*I*N*G* just to tease you :-)
i made a miserable wanna-be-AGP, though.
> or you'll totally screw up my AGP/wannabe gestalts.
they neither are "wannabes". point.
> BTW - are you and Ray pals now?
ha ha... yeah, we're involved in a latex love triangle <snort> :-)
best,
heike
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
CNorman513
I would like to add my comments to the dscussion. I am a bi/gay man. Probably
more bi than gay. I have had sex & love to have sex with men ( I am more
receptive than active) women and transgendered girls.
My favorite partners are T Gilrs!!! They combine the best of both worlds!
My problem is that I have only been able to find professional TGirls (escorts).
While the experiences have been generally favorable, I would like to meet
TGirls to date. I am not usre where to find them!!
I live in the Chicago area and I am looking for clubs that cater to TGirls.
But, from one gay/bi man, TGIRLS are GREAT!!!!!
Chris