Update re Delia Day
jacqui{JB}
owner; no details available, other than she was not indicted by the
grand jury.
http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?s=e0c04a74a7de15c1718
a121f053b36b8&threadid=1053&perpage=15&pagenumber=5
Clearly, something went terribly wrong. My very best wishes go out to
Delia in what must be a very trying time, and my warmest thanks for
the sharing she's done over the years. My selfish hope is that Delia
eventually returns to the online community to share with us again (and
I don't mean about this incident, to be clear) -- clear, lucid and
intelligent voices are always welcome -- but more than that, I hope
she finds peace.
-j
Brian
Brian
--
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Any opinions expressed above, are just that, opinions.
please add salt to taste.
Only my Eyes are blind....
switc...@blueyonder.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________________
"jacqui{JB}" <shining_on...@ME.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c3gou4$11kl$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
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Joe
shining_on...@ME.hotmail.com says...
> For those of you still wondering. Apparently, she shot and killed her
> owner; no details available, other than she was not indicted by the
> grand jury.
Holy shit! She and I had traded emails from time to time back when we
both had adult websites. That's just amazing.
--
"It is impossible to be unjust or unfair to the rich and powerful"
-- Harry Britt
Joe Sergio
>Holy shit! She and I had traded emails from time to time back when we
>both had adult websites. That's just amazing.
So wheres the jumping on her for having a gun?? Huh?? Or even being around a
gun?
No wait. It was there because he was an evil gun owner and deservedit. No.
He couldn't have deservedit because he was kinky. I'm sooooo confused.
--
Joe
Who is mostly
A slightly skewed
Archie Bunker.
Janet Hardy
Joe Sergio wrote:
> The other joe said:
>
>
>>Holy shit! She and I had traded emails from time to time back when we
>>both had adult websites. That's just amazing.
>
>
> So wheres the jumping on her for having a gun?? Huh?? Or even being around a
> gun?
> No wait. It was there because he was an evil gun owner and deservedit. No.
> He couldn't have deservedit because he was kinky. I'm sooooo confused.
Could it be that -- we're waiting for more information???
Naah. Couldn't be that.
Janet
distressed and confused
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John Warren
news:e07e0a62a73df3e8...@news.teranews.com...
>
>
> Joe Sergio wrote:
> > The other joe said:
> >
> >
> >>Holy shit! She and I had traded emails from time to time back when we
> >>both had adult websites. That's just amazing.
> >
> >
> > So wheres the jumping on her for having a gun?? Huh?? Or even being
around a
> > gun?
> > No wait. It was there because he was an evil gun owner and deservedit.
No.
> > He couldn't have deservedit because he was kinky. I'm sooooo confused.
>
> Could it be that -- we're waiting for more information???
>
> Naah. Couldn't be that.
>
> Janet
> distressed and confused
I'm both distressed for Ms Day and deeply distressed that anyone would use
her tragedy to grind his or he political axe.
--
--
www.diversifiedservices.biz Serving the Scene since 1992
jacqui{JB}
news:20040320114843...@mb-m15.aol.com...
> So wheres the jumping on her for having a gun??
> Huh?? Or even being around a gun?
> No wait. It was there because he was an evil gun
> owner and deserved it. No. He couldn't have deserved
> it because he was kinky. I'm sooooo confused.
Joe, you really need to shut the fuck up.
Start your own gun debate elsewhere; I didn't start this thread with
the intention of starting another damned gun thread, but simply
following up on recent inquiries re Delia because I and others here
had been concerned about her. That concern is not diminished in the
least on discovering what could indeed be a great personal tragedy for
her, regardless of how it came about.
Your attitude and opportunism sicken me.
-j
LususNaturae
>Clearly, something went terribly wrong. My very best wishes go out to
>Delia in what must be a very trying time, and my warmest thanks for
>the sharing she's done over the years. My selfish hope is that Delia
>eventually returns to the online community to share with us again (and
>I don't mean about this incident, to be clear) -- clear, lucid and
>intelligent voices are always welcome -- but more than that, I hope
>she finds peace.
I join you in hoping the very best for Delia. If you should
hear how she is doing, please let us know.
I would have been pleased to see Delia join the discussions here
on SSBB more often. She is a forthright sharer, with a valuable
point of view.
--
Lusus Naturae
Joe Sergio
>Could it be that -- we're waiting for more information???
>
>Naah. Couldn't be that.
>
I apologize for being an ass with that. I'm serious. I do mean that I'm
sorry. This ain't a funny thing, nor is it a jumping off place for me to start
a gun thread.
I'm sorry.
Really
Joe Sergio
>I'm both distressed for Ms Day and deeply distressed that anyone would use
>her tragedy to grind his or he political axe.
Oh bite me.
Joe Sergio
>Joe, you really need to shut the fuck up.
Don't even start it baby. Don't even. No need to bow up. Miss Janet emailed
me, and since I do respect her, even though we don't agree, I seen her point.
I apologized.
Although this would be a good nother thread. Not about her situation and all,
but about something like this that happens and why does it happen. IMO, if she
was his slave then there was an agreement, and if she shot him, then IMO he
violated that agreement.
She is in my prayers and all. I meant nothing against her. Not at all. She
did what she had to do. I understand that. I was trying to drive home a point
is all.
AlterEgo
How *awful*. :-(
Brian
some respect.
Brian
--
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Any opinions expressed above, are just that, opinions.
please add salt to taste.
Only my Eyes are blind....
switc...@blueyonder.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________________
"Janet Hardy" <ver...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e07e0a62a73df3e8...@news.teranews.com...
>
>
Markem
rednec...@aol.comspam says...
> So wheres the jumping on her for having a gun?? Huh?? Or even being around a
> gun?
> No wait. It was there because he was an evil gun owner and deservedit. No.
> He couldn't have deservedit because he was kinky. I'm sooooo confused.
Inconsiderate too!
Markem
WhyNot789
rednec...@aol.comspam (Joe Sergio) schreibt:
>The other joe said:
>
>>Holy shit! She and I had traded emails from time to time back when we
>>both had adult websites. That's just amazing.
>
>So wheres the jumping on her for having a gun?? Huh?? Or even being
>around a gun? No wait. It was there because he was an evil gun owner
>and deservedit. No. He couldn't have deservedit because he was kinky.
>I'm sooooo confused.
Why am I not surprised?
Although "confused" doesn't quite seem like the right word here.
Hans
GeneK
"John Warren" <jo...@diversifiedservices.biz> wrote
>I'm both distressed for Ms Day and deeply distressed that anyone would use
> her tragedy to grind his or he political axe.
I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more press about this.
Delia's "owner" was a minor but somewhat well known figure
in his vanilla business. Take her website and blog, throw in
the gun murder aspect, and I would have thought it would be
irresistable to the more sensationalist niches in the media.
GeneK
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SilverOz
I expect to be surprised by how many people will be surprised.
The pattern of "say spomething outrageous, get lots of attention,
pretend that either you didn't realise it was outrageous, or that it's
OK where he is cos he is just a country boy, then get lots of attention,
then be sorry, and get lots of attention" has been repeated ad nauseum.
I expect there to be some personal crisis that will be used as an excuse
for the behaviour if enough people complain, cos that's worked before
too.
And there are *still* people who figure he's just a misunderstood nice
guy instead of an attention seeking little creep. I suppose it's
possible it's all unconscious game playing, that he's not deliberately
pushing buttons to get the attention, but that makes it no less game
playing.
The only way to deal with acting out for attention getting is to not
give the attention except for positive, acceptable, behaviour. This
being usenet, it ain't gonna happen, someone is always going to give him
what he wants, and he doesn't have to work for it. So he's going to keep
doing it. It's so much easier to continue in habitual patterns rather
than change, and if the habits get goos results, why change at all?
Luckily, this being usenet, there are ways to avoid the sorry mess.
SilverOz
ayla
"Joe Sergio" <rednec...@aol.comspam> wrote in message
> Jacqui said:
>
> >Joe, you really need to shut the fuck up.
>
> Don't even start it baby. Don't even. No need to bow up. Miss Janet
emailed
> me, and since I do respect her, even though we don't agree, I seen her
point.
> I apologized.
>
> Although this would be a good nother thread. Not about her situation and
all,
> but about something like this that happens and why does it happen. IMO,
if she
> was his slave then there was an agreement, and if she shot him, then IMO
he
> violated that agreement.
There's really no discussion to be had, honestly, since we don't have their
agreement and we don't know the details of the situation. So, instead of
getting all opinionated about pure speculation, let's keep our opinions to
ourself and everything but sympathy out of the thread. Okay?
ayla
who thinks it's worse to try to re-start a politics thread after apologizing
for starting a politics thread
ayla
"jacqui{JB}" <shining_on...@ME.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c3gou4$11kl$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
My sympathies to Ms. Day, her family, and the family of her owner. I never
knew her and didn't know of her in time to read her writings, but for anyone
in a situation like that my heart aches.
ayla
Sunlight
> There's really no discussion to be had, honestly, since we don't have
> their agreement and we don't know the details of the situation. So,
> instead of getting all opinionated about pure speculation, let's keep
> our opinions to ourself and everything but sympathy out of the
> thread. Okay?
There are details out there on various news sites but it's all about the
bare facts. I ran a whois on her domain name and that was enough to trace
her. It all seems terribly sad. Were I in that situation, I know how I
would feel. I am not, however, her. There have been a lot of warm messages
about them both and I hope the family are finding strength at this time.
--
vanity domain: www.mssunlight.co.uk
Kay
>Jacqui said:
>
>>Joe, you really need to shut the fuck up.
>
>Don't even start it baby. Don't even. No need to bow up. Miss Janet
>emailed
>me, and since I do respect her, even though we don't agree, I seen her point.
>
>I apologized.
You've played that card ad nauseum. "Aw shucks, I'm just an innocent hick who
can say all sorts of obnoxious shit iffen I apologize real sweet afterwards."
Sound familiar to anyone else?
Joe, you're an asshole. I used to find you charming and harmless, but this --
using this tragedy to grind your damn ax again?
Yeah. You're an asshole.
>plonk<
Kay
~~~
She tied you to her kitchen chair
She broke your throne and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah
--Leonard Cohen
~~
SSB Diplomatic Corps: NH, USA
http://hometown.aol.com/mskaynh/myhomepage/profile.html
Binder
> Warren said:
>
>
>>I'm both distressed for Ms Day and deeply distressed that anyone would use
>>her tragedy to grind his or he political axe.
>
>
> Oh bite me.
Which is it, Joe: you're really sorry or John can bite you?
It doesn't work both ways.
Binder
> Although this would be a good nother thread. Not about her situation and all,
> but about something like this that happens and why does it happen. IMO, if she
> was his slave then there was an agreement, and if she shot him, then IMO he
> violated that agreement.
Then start another thread, if you must. I'll try my damndest to stay out
of it.
John Warren
news:c3jlli$2830vs$1...@ID-217865.news.uni-berlin.de...
At first I was sorry for someone who had obviously been so poorly
socialized. Usually a mother can do a better job, but I am also aware that
some are unsuited for the task. However, with the passage of time, I
decided that Joe did know how decent people behaved, he had just decided to
be intentionally obnoxious
Joe Sergio
obviously been so poorly
>socialized. Usually a mother can do a better job, but I am also aware that
>some are unsuited for the task. However, with the passage of time, I
>decided that Joe did know how decent people behaved, he had just decided to
>be intentionally obnoxious
>
>
fuck you.
Vanda Orchid
>For those of you still wondering. Apparently, she shot and killed her
>owner; no details available, other than she was not indicted by the
>grand jury.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2k8hv or
There is also a lot of discussion and information here:
http://seat.defcode.com/index.php?p=240&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
I'm in shock. Also already noticing how many provocative questions
this story raises (*whatever* the hell happened) about consensuality,
dominance and submission, etc.
But mostly in shock.
vo
Marco
OK, Joe - you owe me a keyboard, and it's my laptop this time...
--
Marco
"I prefer heaven for climate, and hell for companionship."
"Joe Sergio" <rednec...@aol.comspam> wrote in message
news:20040320154059...@mb-m16.aol.com...
Bacchae
> Could it be that -- we're waiting for more information???
Indeed.
I think there has been conjecture as to whether Delia Day =
Susan Anton but here at least is the obituary for Travis Anton:
From
http://www.holmescountyherald.com/1Obituariesbody.lasso?-token.curcount=50&-token.pages=62&-nothing
***
Travis M. Anton
Died: Tuesday, December 02, 2003
Age: 33
Travis M. Anton of French Camp, 33, died Tuesday, December 2,
2003 at his residence. Services were Sunday, December 7, 2003
at 2:00 p.m. at Southern Funeral Home Chapel in Lexington with
burial in Coxburg Methodist Cemetery. Rev. Paul Edwards
officiated.
Mr. Anton is the son of Willye Cooksey Anton and the late
Clarence O. Anton. He was born in Walker County, Alabama. He
was self-employed and the owner of Box Top Software Company. He
was a member of the Methodist-Protestant Church.
Survivors include: wife, Susan Fullilove Anton of French Camp;
mother, Willye Anton of Lexington; two sons, Travis Ian Anton
of Lexington and Neal Anton of French Camp; one daughter, Dell
Anton of French Camp; one brother, Richard Neal Anton of
Stuart, FL; three half-brothers, Noel Anton and Vincent Anton
both of Richmond, VA, and Greg Anton of Nashville, TN; one half
sister, Connie Sandman of Richmond, VA.
Active pallbearers were: Alex Cooksey, Rex Cooksey, Max Pepper,
Kent Pepper, Battle Noble, and Jimmy Hicks.
***
- Sandy
Bacchae
> IMO, if she
> was his slave then there was an agreement, and if she shot
him, then IMO he
> violated that agreement.
What fucking planet do you live on, Joe?
I tell ya, I am sure she'd like you as a witness for the
defence. I can see it now: Joe as a expert witness in front
of the judge explaining how Delia deserves special dispensation
because of a violated slave contract.
<snort>
- Sandy
Bacchae
>
> > Could it be that -- we're waiting for more information???
One of the links supplied in this thread referenced an article
that appeared in the Coctaw Plaindealer. A quick e-mail to and
from the author of that article, Joseph McCain, says Susan
Anton was not indicted by the Grand Jury and that rumour has it
she is staying with family elsewhere.
Again, this is not meant to imply that I have any firm evidence
that Susan Anton *is* Delia Day but it adds sad credibility to
the other information presented surrounding this case.
- Sandy
DonSideB
<vorchi...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>I'm in shock. Also already noticing how many provocative questions
>this story raises (*whatever* the hell happened) about consensuality,
>dominance and submission, etc.
>
Sadly, spouses killing each other is not all that uncommon. Though we would
like for it to be so, there is no reason to believe our folk should be immune.
BDSM may have been a factor in this, but we should not jump to to that
conclusion.
In ay case, it is a tragedy and we should wait for the truth to come out before
making assumptions or looking for lessons to glean from it.
--
don
Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech
(except to muzzle critics of the Congress for 60 days before an election.)
SSBB Diplomatic Corps: Tidewater Virginia
Vanda Orchid
>In ay case, it is a tragedy and we should wait for the truth to come out before
>making assumptions or looking for lessons to glean from it.
Well, from what I have been reading, it does look as if the grand jury
exonerated her because of the "treatment" she received from her
spouse. Which she has defined as sadomasochism, per se. And about
which she waxed ecstatic, publically, for years. So from that angle,
I'm not just blindly suggesting that there are SM-related questions to
ponder in all this. (Even if it's just a bunch of false rumors - there
can be interesting questions in a "what if" scenario.) And that's
all I meant to say - that it brings up things to ponder. Didn't mean
to say there were "lessons," fergawdsake. I mean, eew.
vo,
Delia Day fan
Katharine H.
wrote:
>Janet said:
>
>>Could it be that -- we're waiting for more information???
>>
>>Naah. Couldn't be that.
>>
>
>I apologize for being an ass with that. I'm serious. I do mean that I'm
>sorry. This ain't a funny thing, nor is it a jumping off place for me to start
>a gun thread.
>
>I'm sorry.
>
>Really
Sorry enough to tell John Warren to bite you and fuck off when he
called you out on your comment?
Is this when you call me a bitch?
I'm so looking forward to it.
--Katharine
Joe Sergio
>Sorry enough to tell John Warren to bite you and fuck off when he
>called you out on your comment?
>
>Is this when you call me a bitch?
>
>I'm so looking forward to it.
The thing between Warren and me is more than just that comment. It's been
going on for some time now.
I don't think your a bitch at all.. Someone emailed me privately and pointed
out that this ain't the time for that. I thought about it and agreed, so I
apologized.
The person who emailed me didn't do it in a smarmy and condescending manner
that most of his posts towards me have. If he had said it like the email I
got, I wouldn't have said that to him at all. However, I doubt that I hurt his
feelings by saying that to him. I'm sure he feels about me like I feel about
him.
Sunlight
> I think there has been conjecture as to whether Delia Day =
> Susan Anton but here at least is the obituary for Travis Anton:
Whois on deliaday.com shows that a Travis Anton is the registrant.
*shrug*
John Warren
news:o3v060l22lcdsr5in...@4ax.com...
It's this game he plays. Be offensive, apologize, get huffy, claim to be
the victim.
Killfiling the best approach. He's proven over and over he can't learn
--
--
www.diversifiedservices.biz Serving the Scene since 1992
Joe Sergio
>It's this game he plays. Be offensive, apologize, get huffy, claim to be
>the victim.
>
>Killfiling the best approach. He's proven over and over he can't learn
>
Don't buy into Warrens game. He;s an arrogant know it all "perfesser" who can
certainly tell you what's right and wrong.
And BTW, If Warren has me killfiled, why does he respond to my original posts?
Markem
rednec...@aol.comspam says...
> And BTW, If Warren has me killfiled, why does he respond to my original posts?
Because he is not he replied to others who have quoted you.
Markem
Lenore
know enough here though to know what happened. I am sure of one thing,
though "Mr Man" and "Delia Day" are/were one in the same as Travis and
Susan Anton. I noticed from an earlier post that there was some
question according to some. But no, I saw the picture that went along
with the obit on one site and that was one in the same man as the
Travis on Delia/Susan's site. Was she pushed over the edge? Who knows.
They played in an extreme and scary kind of place. I never thought the
site was bogus, I think they really lead a TPE lifestyle. If anyone is
the least bit unstable, that could shake something loose for sure.
However, and this is a big and important however, it may for all we
know have been an accidental shooting. That may be why she was not
indicted for murder and was named as a survivor in the obit. If I were
in Travis' family and I thought his wife were guilty of murder, no way
would I see her mentioned in his obit.So it is possible this was a
terrible accident. Looking at her site, "Delia" gave the impression of
loving her "Mr Man" very much. They were together more than 10 years.
Whatever happened, (and I am not ashamed to admit I wish I knew more)
my heart goes out to both families.
Vanda Orchid <vorchi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1f7v505unniosjcs9...@4ax.com>...
ayla
"jacqui{JB}" <shining_on...@ME.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c3gou4$11kl$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
> grand jury.
<snip>
I've found myself deeply affected by this whole thing. I didn't hear of
delia until after she disappeared, or at least not at a time I could really
get into her. Someone on bdsm library found the ip address for her website
and it's still online, and so i went and browsed around, and only got more
distressed.
I wrote an entry in my blog about it, and one of my readers is disgusted by
delia in general. That just hurts even more, and I was crying about it when
Angelus came online tonight. We almost got in a huge fight. He was having a
hard time understanding why I was struggling with this situation of a woman
I never knew, never heard of really before this, and was thinking it was
because her owner died. But, that wasn't, and isn't, what's got me so upset.
And after posting about this on my blog and getting such ignorant responses
from people I really like and respect, I figured I'd share it here.
I'm a baby when it comes to BDSM and the whole scene it involves. I'm in my
first real non-vanilla relationship, and while I think I hit paydirt, I
realize that the relationship is in its infancy and so is my submission. So
then I hear about Delia Day, who writes her name with capital letters and
yet is a complete and total slave. I know that the form really has nothing
to do with the function, but the idea of true time slavery just blows my
mind. So I went to the website and I poked around a bit, and I'm overwhelmed
by just how deeply she loved, was loved, and was committed to this decision
she had made with her life. Every breath she took, including the cigarettes
she smoked, was to please her Owner.
And I feel inadequate.
There is no way I can do that, completely give myself over to fulfilling
every order I'm given. I don't have the trust. I hate myself for that. I
hate myself for not wanting to be the active partner in the majority of my
sexual encounters, I hate myself for wanting BDSM so that I can be helpless.
I hate myself for wanting to give over like that even more, though. Because
I love when I put on my clothes and I know that every stitch I'm wearing is
pleasing to Him. I love doing my hair and knowing that it's the way he likes
to see it, even if he hasn't seen it in person in over 300 days. I love
doing my homework and knowing that it's fulfilling his wishes of me, and I
want to think that if i was ordered to eat shit, something that is the
hardest limit I have, I would do it, to make him happy. But I don't think I
would, and that makes me feel inadequate.
And then, to know that for ten years she immersed herself in that, and now
she has nothing. Her website is void. Her blog is void. Her life is void,
everything that she'd been for the last ten years is now void, because of
this, no matter how it happened.
Angelus mentioned that it seemed that was one good argument towards having
children. I think, if we have children together and I surrender that much
and then he dies, I could see myself having a psychotic break, killing them
all and then killing myself. I just don't know what I'd do. I've already
committed so much into this, and we're a year+ in and still really haven't
broken the surface of what we can be together. I don't know, the thought is
emotionally overwhelming.
Part of this is the fact that I'm getting my period at the end of the week.
Another part is just getting back from spring break and having tons of work
to do. The biggest part is that the most dangerous part of this entire
deployment is coming up very soon, and I won't know when until after it
happens.
And I still don't get the phone call or the flag.
Sigh. I'm overtired, I'm going to get some sleep. But I needed to purge, and
this seemed like the only appropriate place to do so.
ayla
SilverOz
ayla <ayla...@hotpopidiotproof.com> wrote:
>
> mind. So I went to the website and I poked around a bit, and I'm overwhelmed
> by just how deeply she loved, was loved, and was committed to this decision
> she had made with her life. Every breath she took, including the cigarettes
> she smoked, was to please her Owner.
>
> And I feel inadequate.
>
> There is no way I can do that, completely give myself over to fulfilling
> every order I'm given. I don't have the trust. I hate myself for that. I
I have felt that way.
What made the difference to me was the realisation that I wasn't kinked
for it.
It was made easier by the fact I'm not kinked for being flogged or
really for much pain at all. Flogging just upsets and angers me, pretty
much the way it does for someone not kinked for BDSM.
I'm not kinked for flogging, I'm not kinked for total slavery.
It's not that I'm inadequate, because that assumes there is this line
that starts with "a bit of D&S for fun" and ends with "total slavery"
and that people should be progressing along this line and only the
really good ones, the ones we should all wish to be like make it to the
top.
I don't think D&S *is* a line. With the best being the most intense. I
think it's a rather amorphous blob of kinks, with some folk being into
some things and not others and some being into the others. I'm not
kinked for *lots* of things, and TPE is one of them. The world may be
full of Owned Floggees, but I ain't ever going to be one of 'em. So?
I know someone who is kinked for service. I mean *really* kinked for
service. She goes and cleans the house of a certain dom, when the dom's
not there. she doesn't get scened with, she doesn't get paid, her reward
is the doing of that service to that dom. Shuold I feel inadequate cos I
say I'm "a submissive" but that level of service just ain't me? No way!
She has a very rare kink, and good luck to her, but there's no natural
law that says "if you are submissive you must be into service and TPE,
and you must do every intense and selfless form of D&S or be a pretender
and inadequate."
No natural law at all.
You have a bunch of kinks, some of which you don't know yet. As times
goes on your desires and needs and abilities will change, welcome to the
human race. They may change so as to make you want to do more
over-arching D&S, they may not. They may take you someplace completely
different into something that others find way too intense.
It isn't like school where the no-hopers drop out and the really really
bright kids get a PhD. It isn't like sport where you sign up to a
team and the really good ones go pro and the rest know they weren't
good enough. It's not a progression, you don't get tested and found
wanting and banished to the dunce's class, you don't get looked down on
as not good enough.
It's a buffet and if you don't want to eat the garlic prawns then don't!
You enjoy your black bean salad, and you see someone else eating the
garlic prawns and you think "looks like they are enjoying that as much as
I am enjoying this". Because if you aren't into garlic prawns you
aren't, and eating them won't make you somehow "better" than eating
black bean salad, just as eating the salad doesn't make you somehow
inadequate. It's a matter of taste. Of kink.
And as for the nay-sayers? There will always be people who can't make
the distinction between "no way would I do that" and "no way should
anyone do that". That's their problem, they'll work it out and join the
grownups one day.
SilverOz
ayla
"SilverOz" <ze...@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:slrnc62c21...@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
<snip excellent response to my post>
> SilverOz
Thanks, SilverOz. I received support from many angles tonight, and I really
needed all of them. Now, I'm going to finish my drink, and take advantage of
the sleepiness that it affords me and get some sleep. I have a test first
thing tomorrow.
Blessings,
ayla
Morgane
ayla <ayla...@hotpopidiotproof.com> wrote in article
<0rSdnQCRr-Y...@comcast.com>...
> <snip>
> I was crying about it when
> Angelus came online tonight. We almost got in a huge fight. He was having a
> hard time understanding why I was struggling with this situation of a woman
> I never knew, never heard of really before this, and was thinking it was
> because her owner died. But, that wasn't, and isn't, what's got me so upset.
He's probably processing Delia's tragedy as a Dominant, so it's going to be
very different than how you interpret it. I can't say for sure what's on his
mind, but the fact that Delia's Owner is no longer present might be hitting
him. The fact that he's not had a naked eye on you for 300 days probably weighs
in too.
> And after posting about this on my blog and getting such ignorant responses
> from people I really like and respect, I figured I'd share it here.
It's a good thing you probably don't like or respect me then ; ) I suck at
online protocol, and I don't even know if it's OK to reply to a purge.
> I'm a baby when it comes to BDSM and the whole scene it involves. I'm in my
> first real non-vanilla relationship, and while I think I hit paydirt, I
> realize that the relationship is in its infancy and so is my submission. So
> then I hear about Delia Day, who writes her name with capital letters and
> yet is a complete and total slave. I know that the form really has nothing
> to do with the function, but the idea of true time slavery just blows my
> mind.
Mine too.
>So I went to the website and I poked around a bit, and I'm overwhelmed
> by just how deeply she loved, was loved, and was committed to this decision
> she had made with her life. Every breath she took, including the cigarettes
> she smoked, was to please her Owner.
She 's pretty cool.
> And I feel inadequate.
If I copared myself to some of the people I've met in the scene like that, I'd
slither into a deeper hole. We can only be the best for ourselves. I don't mean
that in a 'loser talk' kind of way, because there's no direct comparison
between individuals, and trying to do that is just painful.
> There is no way I can do that, completely give myself over to fulfilling
> every order I'm given. I don't have the trust. I hate myself for that. I
> hate myself for not wanting to be the active partner in the majority of my
> sexual encounters, I hate myself for wanting BDSM so that I can be helpless.
> I hate myself for wanting to give over like that even more, though.
I think that's the way out. The wanting to do less, and give more.
>Because
> I love when I put on my clothes and I know that every stitch I'm wearing is
> pleasing to Him. I love doing my hair and knowing that it's the way he likes
> to see it, even if he hasn't seen it in person in over 300 days. I love
> doing my homework and knowing that it's fulfilling his wishes of me, and I
> want to think that if i was ordered to eat shit, something that is the
> hardest limit I have, I would do it, to make him happy. But I don't think I
> would, and that makes me feel inadequate.
That's not failure, you just haven't yet reached your goal. You probably don't
want to reach every goal, but rather savor the process of working towards it.
> And then, to know that for ten years she immersed herself in that, and now
> she has nothing. Her website is void. Her blog is void. Her life is void,
> everything that she'd been for the last ten years is now void, because of
> this, no matter how it happened.
How long to you think her life will be empty?
> Angelus mentioned that it seemed that was one good argument towards having
> children. I think, if we have children together and I surrender that much
> and then he dies, I could see myself having a psychotic break, killing them
> all and then killing myself. I just don't know what I'd do. I've already
> committed so much into this, and we're a year+ in and still really haven't
> broken the surface of what we can be together. I don't know, the thought is
> emotionally overwhelming.
Just slow down. Part of this is that your in a void of you own right now. a lot
of your friends aren't being helpful, and you're feeling alone. It'll take time
to work through by yourself.
> And I still don't get the phone call or the flag.
Not sure what you mean (Canadian)
> Sigh. I'm overtired, I'm going to get some sleep. But I needed to purge, and
> this seemed like the only appropriate place to do so.
Believe it or not, the Delia incident is a sharp pin dangerously close to the
balloon of my fantasies. It's helped writing to you like this because I'm not
silently mulling it over as usual.
Morgane
jacqui{JB}
news:0rSdnQCRr-Y...@comcast.com...
> I've found myself deeply affected by this whole thing.
As have I, for a variety of reasons.
<snip, because SilverOz has covered the topic of DS spectrum in her
usual inimitable and intelligent fashion and I don't have anything
else to add>
> Angelus mentioned that it seemed that was one
> good argument towards having children.
But I do have to reply to this.
*Why* (in [deity of your choice]'s name) is Delia's present situation
a "good argument" towards having kids? I don't see any kind of
rational connection between the two; kids or no, if I were in this
situation, I'd still be suffering and having children wouldn't make a
damned bit of difference.
There are good and bad reasons to have children. One of the bad ones
is "so I won't be alone [in my old age] [when my partner dies]."
You don't *have* to have children to be fulfilled in life; many people
are not cut out to be parents -- the lucky ones are those who realize
it *before* they have children.
-j
Morag R
<ayla...@hotpopidiotproof.com> wrote:
> "jacqui{JB}" <shining_on...@ME.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c3gou4$11kl$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
> > For those of you still wondering. Apparently, she shot and killed her
> > owner; no details available, other than she was not indicted by the
> > grand jury.
>
> <snip>
>
> I've found myself deeply affected by this whole thing. I didn't hear of
> delia until after she disappeared, or at least not at a time I could really
> get into her. Someone on bdsm library found the ip address for her website
> and it's still online, and so i went and browsed around, and only got more
> distressed.
Interesting how many people have been pondering this. I admit I also
got a little freaked, and I think the type of freak-out is going to
depend a lot on what is important to individuals, and what their
orientation is - and in the absence of further info, probably not a lot
to do with what happened with Delia Day.
I talked about it with my dominant partner, and while we prefaced
everything with "we don't know what happened" some questions did arise
for me about what happens if you find that you need to change your life
choices, and you have a public profile and/or a slave contract to live
up to.
Plus there is the issue of flat out accidents. I have a concern similar
to that old walking along clifftops concern that one day I might just
find my fist connecting with my partner because of a gut level trigger.
I think the likelihood of that is extremely rare, just as I don't think
I'll ever actually jump off a cliff, but it's there and I am better
trained and in better physical condition than my partner. I'm counting
on that better training to result in self-control rather than a fist
and when we do particlarly heavy stuff I'm restrained anyway.
I think another trick to it all is that people (including me) can tend
to want to keep themsselves happy by pointing to the chudwahs and the
twue subbies and saying that it is them that are going to come a
cropper. Whereas when someone who has a lot of clue and track record
comes a serious cropper, it's much more of a cause for pause.
My partner was quick to understand that my personal freakout was to do
with the fear of ending up with no options and no life and reassured me
that they had no intention of attempting to diminish my life. SilverOz
has done a beautiful job of deconstructing the bullshit heirarchies of
"kinky players" vs TPE so I'll leave it that.
Cheers
MoragR
--
Email - morag *at* homemail *dot* com *dot* au
impossible princess
> It's a buffet and if you don't want to eat the garlic prawns then don't!
> You enjoy your black bean salad, and you see someone else eating the
> garlic prawns and you think "looks like they are enjoying that as much as
> I am enjoying this". Because if you aren't into garlic prawns you
> aren't, and eating them won't make you somehow "better" than eating
> black bean salad, just as eating the salad doesn't make you somehow
> inadequate. It's a matter of taste. Of kink.
>
> SilverOz
I really love this post.
It articulates everything I feel about this lifestyle....
ayla
> "ayla" <ayla...@hotpopidiotproof.com> wrote in message
> news:0rSdnQCRr-Y...@comcast.com...
>
> > I've found myself deeply affected by this whole thing.
>
> As have I, for a variety of reasons.
>
> <snip, because SilverOz has covered the topic of DS spectrum in her
> usual inimitable and intelligent fashion and I don't have anything
> else to add>
>
> > Angelus mentioned that it seemed that was one
> > good argument towards having children.
>
> But I do have to reply to this.
>
> *Why* (in [deity of your choice]'s name) is Delia's present situation
> a "good argument" towards having kids? I don't see any kind of
> rational connection between the two; kids or no, if I were in this
> situation, I'd still be suffering and having children wouldn't make a
> damned bit of difference.
We're going to have children anyways. The purpose of my life on earth is to
have and raise children, I'm sure of it. What his point was, was that if I
had children, I would regroup faster, since they *are* my purpose in life.
So while he is my current focus, and the best thing that ever happened to
me, if I don't have children (and they don't have to be biological, just
"mine") then I'm more likely to give up the ghost if he dies. It's a point
to the resilience factor.
Not sure if I explained that adequately. I'm still undercaffinated, but I
needed to respond before I got overwhelmed by the day.
> There are good and bad reasons to have children. One of the bad ones
> is "so I won't be alone [in my old age] [when my partner dies]."
Like I said, children in this example aren't to give me company, they're to
continue to give me purpose, so that I don't feel the void that I'm
currently echoing from this delia thing.
> You don't *have* to have children to be fulfilled in life; many people
> are not cut out to be parents -- the lucky ones are those who realize
> it *before* they have children.
I agree with you that some people are not cut out to be parents, I have
refused to babysit for a lot of them. But I was. I've been researching and
studying for parenthood since I got my period the first time, and every
decision I make, down to my diet, is in preparation for being a parent. But
you're right, kids aren't for keeping company or "to love me". In this case,
it would be a waste of my life if I didn't have children.
>
> -j
>
Thank you for your response, I really do appreciate it.
ayla
ayla
"Morgane" <zia...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:01c4116f$3e4d1e60$ce00...@cr1001062-a.ym1.on.wave.home.com...
>
>
> ayla <ayla...@hotpopidiotproof.com> wrote in article
> <0rSdnQCRr-Y...@comcast.com>...
> > <snip>
> > I was crying about it when
> > Angelus came online tonight. We almost got in a huge fight. He was
having a
> > hard time understanding why I was struggling with this situation of a
woman
> > I never knew, never heard of really before this, and was thinking it was
> > because her owner died. But, that wasn't, and isn't, what's got me so
upset.
>
> He's probably processing Delia's tragedy as a Dominant, so it's going to
be
> very different than how you interpret it. I can't say for sure what's on
his
> mind, but the fact that Delia's Owner is no longer present might be
hitting
> him. The fact that he's not had a naked eye on you for 300 days probably
weighs
> in too.
It's also that he's seen so much senseless death in the last 325 days that
hearing about one more case of one spouse killing the other didn't really
mean much to him. Also, his void is very present at the moment, being that
he currently feels powerless in our relationship, which is never a good
thing for a Dominant to feel, so he was having a hard time relating. We got
it worked out before we got offline, but this happens once a month and it
always sucks.
> > And after posting about this on my blog and getting such ignorant
responses
> > from people I really like and respect, I figured I'd share it here.
>
> It's a good thing you probably don't like or respect me then ; ) I suck at
> online protocol, and I don't even know if it's OK to reply to a purge.
No, it's definitely okay. In my blog, I had a girl that I really like but
who's a bit narrowminded tell me that it was horrible that women in africa
are fighting against genital mutilation and then to have some woman let a
man do it to her is appalling. When I pointed out the difference of consent,
she responded that it was basically a sin against the feminist movement to
be a submissive. Her responses made me feel even worse, and that's why I
came here.
> If I copared myself to some of the people I've met in the scene like
that, I'd
> slither into a deeper hole. We can only be the best for ourselves. I don't
mean
> that in a 'loser talk' kind of way, because there's no direct comparison
> between individuals, and trying to do that is just painful.
I think my problem is a struggle against myself, and the feminist upbringing
that I was brought up with. I haven't really figured out how to fit true
time submission into my life yet, having not really had to practice true
time submission yet. So, we'll see how it happens as it progresses. I also
have an overactive sense of empathy especially at this time of the month, so
that has something to do with it.
> That's not failure, you just haven't yet reached your goal. You probably
don't
> want to reach every goal, but rather savor the process of working towards
it.
Not sure about this one, but I'm going to mull it over. Thank you.
> How long to you think her life will be empty?
I don't know. And that's the thing that's really getting me, because from
the outside, I'm having a hard time seeing the way out of her hole. And I
don't know what to do about that.
> Just slow down. Part of this is that your in a void of you own right now.
a lot
> of your friends aren't being helpful, and you're feeling alone. It'll take
time
> to work through by yourself.
You're right. I talked about the children thing later, but there's time for
everything and everything in its time.
>
> > And I still don't get the phone call or the flag.
>
> Not sure what you mean (Canadian)
Because we're not married yet and he's military, if he dies, I don't get the
phone call notifying me and I won't get the flag draped over his coffin.
Both the phone call and the flag will be presented to his mother until we're
legally married. It's inappropriate for us to get married at this point, and
was before he deployed, but if he deploys again I'll have his last name
before he goes anywhere. This time, though, I'm nervous and I hate knowing
I'll be the last one to know.
> Believe it or not, the Delia incident is a sharp pin dangerously close to
the
> balloon of my fantasies. It's helped writing to you like this because I'm
not
> silently mulling it over as usual.
Well, I'm glad we were able to give each other a leg up then. :-) Thank you,
honestly.
Now I have to go take a test. Excuse me.
ayla
Morgane
ayla <ayla...@hotpopidiotproof.com> wrote in article
<OfKdnf12Ebh...@comcast.com>...
> It's also that he's seen so much senseless death in the last 325 days that
> hearing about one more case of one spouse killing the other didn't really
> mean much to him. Also, his void is very present at the moment, being that
> he currently feels powerless in our relationship, which is never a good
> thing for a Dominant to feel, so he was having a hard time relating.
325 days of isolation from my submissive would freak me out, so I can kind of
relate.
>We got
> it worked out before we got offline, but this happens once a month and it
> always sucks.
At least you didn't hang up still angry.
> No, it's definitely okay. In my blog, I had a girl that I really like but
> who's a bit narrowminded tell me that it was horrible that women in africa
> are fighting against genital mutilation and then to have some woman let a
> man do it to her is appalling. When I pointed out the difference of consent,
> she responded that it was basically a sin against the feminist movement to
> be a submissive. Her responses made me feel even worse, and that's why I
> came here.
> I think my problem is a struggle against myself, and the feminist upbringing
> that I was brought up with. I haven't really figured out how to fit true
> time submission into my life yet, having not really had to practice true
> time submission yet. So, we'll see how it happens as it progresses.
Oh! I was planning to go to sleep before I read that. Inferior spinoffs of
Feminism completely warped my mind about BDSM. It was a prolonged struggle to
break free of it too. I got the whole 'penetrative sex is rape' thing, the 'you
hate the image of strong women' thing, and blah blah blah. As a result, I
completly subverted my desire to torment, but not really hurt women, believing
that I was just a rapist that was jealous of biological females. Even though I
had no libido and lack the capacity to feel jealousy (when you're young you can
fall for stuff like this). I stuck to the basics of Feminism, stuff like women
voting is good, women getting equal pay is good, while pressing Eject on stuff
like 'porn is bad'. Guidance came from had an older, submissive woman who I
respect greatly, and is so hardcore about Feminism help me out.
> > How long to you think her life will be empty?
>
> I don't know. And that's the thing that's really getting me, because from
> the outside, I'm having a hard time seeing the way out of her hole. And I
> don't know what to do about that.
Delia's strong and smart. We've probably not seen the last of her. Also, I
don't know for sure what's going on right now, so the best thing is to wait for
enough information to base a decision on.
> Because we're not married yet and he's military, if he dies, I don't get the
> phone call notifying me and I won't get the flag draped over his coffin.
> Both the phone call and the flag will be presented to his mother until we're
> legally married. It's inappropriate for us to get married at this point, and
> was before he deployed, but if he deploys again I'll have his last name
> before he goes anywhere. This time, though, I'm nervous and I hate knowing
> I'll be the last one to know.
All I know is that this is the most Americans I've talked to since the mid
90's. Now you guys are fighting wars, having terror alerts, and preventing
further conflict in an armed peackeeper way. I constantly hear about soldiers
shipping out and the people at home worrying about it. You must know other
spouses with partners in the services online or in meaty world, maybe it could
help?
> Well, I'm glad we were able to give each other a leg up then. :-) Thank you,
> honestly.
>
> Now I have to go take a test. Excuse me.
Thank you for reading my post, while you're so busy. Good luck on the test : )
Morgane
Brian
way for anything, life is life and our control of it is a myth. We are all
buffeted by its trips, high winds and dark corners.
None of us could live if we judged ourselves by others.
Be happy with what and who you are. It is, in the end the only way to stay
sane in this topsy turvy world. There is nothing anyone can do to change
what has happened to Deliah, and though sad, there are no parallels with
anyoneelses relationships other than the bdsm loose connection as far as I
can see.
You are frightened because of where your loved one is, and how no news is
not good news. Just have faith, nothing else makes sense as far as I can
see.
Just steady your nerve and sit it out. What else can you do. Don't beat
yourself up, you and all of us are not perfect, but then, nobody knows what
that actually is, do they?
Brian
--
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Any opinions expressed above, are just that, opinions.
please add salt to taste.
Only my Eyes are blind....
switc...@blueyonder.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________________
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Thorney
> I wrote an entry in my blog about [Delia], and one of my readers is
> disgusted.... That just hurts even more, and I was crying about it when
> Angelus came online tonight. We almost got in a huge fight. He was
> having a hard time understanding why I was struggling with this
> situation of a woman I never knew, never heard of really before
> this, and was thinking it was because her owner died. <snip of a
> long essay about self-understanding>
I think the computer geeks used to call this a "core dump" rather
than a "purge"; it means the same. A wonderful essay, ayla, and
there have been excellent responses; I really liked SilverOz's but
the others have been helpful, too. I think this is ssbb at its best,
supporting a member who is having trouble emotionally dealing
with something that involves wiitwd.
A couple of centuries ago, an Eastern European Jewish mystic
by the name of Zuzya was on his deathbed. A follower asked him,
"Rebbe Zuzya, are you ready to appear before the Heavenly Tribunal?"
Zuzya replied, "Yes. After all, they won't ask me why I wasn't Moses,
they will only ask if I did a good job of being Zuzya."
You are doing a very good job of being ayla. Don't be upset
that you are not someone else, don't feel a need to emulate
someone else. It is a shock when someone else's world collapses,
but it isn't your world an ddoesn't have to be. Enjoy what you enjoy,
try something new when you want or when you are ready, but don't
feel an obligation to be new or different or to like doing it the way
someone else does. [And certainly don't rush into TPE, there are
a lot of steps on the way and no requirement about where you
wind up.]
If I were in Angelus' situation (I'm not, but I had a brother
in the first Kuwait war and I know something about what he and his
wife went through), I'd be delighted with knowing that you were
dressing, doing your hair, etc., to please me. Do letters and pictures
get to him? It's nice you can communicate online, mainly my brother
could not during his months in the desert. My knowing what she is
wearing is something that Mrs. Thorney and I do when we have to
be separated (which luckily is rare and brief, for us.) My sympathy
on the family (not being the next of kin) issue, too.
Go on loving him, await his return, realize that these returns
are sometimes a strain after the environment he's been in (the military
does training sessions and pysch counseling for the wives, but again,
they presumably won't include you), and let the fullnes of time
bring what the fullness of time brings. Twenty-five years ago when
we started, even twenty years ago when we married (and their was
a year of geographic separation in that first five) Mrs. Thorney and I
couldn't have imagined how much pleaseure we'd have from each other
now, or most of the things we do together now.
Unlike some of the exams you take in school, there isn't
always "one right answer" in life; there is not an end-of-semester
grade, and you don't always get told how the whole things came out
at the end. But life always has new possibilities, and two people
who are so much in love and so concerned for each other's pleasure
are in a wonderful position to get past the present, find out how to
do things to please themselves rather than others, and go on to
an ever better relationship (in ways you cannot predict now.)
With concern and affection,
Thorney
------------
A few of my past posts are at
http://www.geocities.com/Thorney1z/stories.html
Binder
> Warren said:
>
>
>>It's this game he plays. Be offensive, apologize, get huffy, claim to be
>>the victim.
>>
>>Killfiling the best approach. He's proven over and over he can't learn
>>
>
>
> Don't buy into Warrens game. He;s an arrogant know it all "perfesser" who can
> certainly tell you what's right and wrong.
>
> And BTW, If Warren has me killfiled, why does he respond to my original posts?
Take it the FUCK outside!
Binder
> And I feel inadequate.
That's a rough one. Do keep in mind, if you can, that this isn't a race.
There aren't any winners or losers, expect perhaps what one might win
for one's self.
Surrounded, as we are, with an air of competitiveness, it's easy to fall
into the trap of harder or deeper being better or more fulfilling. They
-may- be, but not in comparison to others. Trying to compete,
emotionally, in a game where the only player that matters is the one
doing the thinking and feeling, is a sure fire way to lose one's
satisfaction.
"You can't please everyone; have to please yourself."
Binder
--
LLEBOOTHSLG
remove my TAILS to email me
Whips, Quirts, Etc http://www.madplaiter.com
Binder
>>It's a buffet and if you don't want to eat the garlic prawns then don't!
>>You enjoy your black bean salad, and you see someone else eating the
>>garlic prawns and you think "looks like they are enjoying that as much as
>>I am enjoying this". Because if you aren't into garlic prawns you
>>aren't, and eating them won't make you somehow "better" than eating
>>black bean salad, just as eating the salad doesn't make you somehow
>>inadequate. It's a matter of taste. Of kink.
[piggybacking, and not trying to take anything away from SilverOz's
usual exquisite post]
There's a little more to it than that, I think. If that someone eating
garlic prawns is wired to orgasm over plain tofu, and the observer is
not wired that way, the comparison is worse than useless; it can lead
the observer to the feeling that they are somehow missing something.
Unless the observer and the observed are intimate with each other,
there's no way to know if that tofugasm is the pinnacle of that person's
experience, the bottom of it, or what. "I wish I enjoyed tofu that much"
isn't a helpful thought, as it focusses on what one lacks, not what one
possesses. So that one has foodgasms: one might learn how, might not.
If it's -that- important, to -you- sure, go for it. Anyone can go
through the motions, but Carnegie Hall's stage requires talent and
practice. If a ten dollar fiddle can tell all the truth that any one
ever lived in your hands, it might be a good fit. Likewise for slavery;
if that's what makes you tick, go for it. Practice the scales of slavery
every day, but remember that you'll be playing "Mary Had a Little Lamb"
before you'll get close to "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring".
You are where you are, right now. Nothing anyone can do will change that
fact, so why worry about what might be, or might have been. True, you
can do something about what might become... but if you try to mold
yourself after someone else, you're unlikely to come up with anything
more than an unsatisfying copy.
If you do those things you find fulfilling, enjoy them! Give them
nothing less than the best you can, and you might find them satisfying
(if you're not an artist, that is...) and other people will recognize
what you've put in. Just learn those gifts you were born with and let
others come, as they come. There's no hurry... no finish line, no "I've
done everything" to get to.
Malcolm Weir
<ayla...@hotpopidiotproof.com> wrote:
[ Snip ]
>And I feel inadequate.
>
>There is no way I can do that, completely give myself over to fulfilling
>every order I'm given. I don't have the trust. I hate myself for that. I
>hate myself for not wanting to be the active partner in the majority of my
>sexual encounters, I hate myself for wanting BDSM so that I can be helpless.
>I hate myself for wanting to give over like that even more, though. Because
>I love when I put on my clothes and I know that every stitch I'm wearing is
>pleasing to Him. I love doing my hair and knowing that it's the way he likes
>to see it, even if he hasn't seen it in person in over 300 days. I love
>doing my homework and knowing that it's fulfilling his wishes of me, and I
>want to think that if i was ordered to eat shit, something that is the
>hardest limit I have, I would do it, to make him happy. But I don't think I
>would, and that makes me feel inadequate.
Eeeks... Welcome to this stage in your BDSM development!
It sucks... but I know a lot of people, myself included, who have at
some time fallen into the trap of thinking that this universe of kink
is a linear continuum, such that "TPE" is seen as "better" than "D/s
relationships", which in turn is "better" than simple SM.
It's an easy mistake to make, because there are people who want the
TPE environment (real or imagined), and who use the progression via
D/s relationships to get there!
But if you rephrase the point in terms of conventional sex, you'd
laugh at anyone who seriously tried to tell you that anal sex is
better than vaginal intercourse, which is better than oral sex --
unless they were simply expressing their own preference!
For me, though, it sounds like you're having a tough time keeping it
in the front of your head that you are in a relationship involving two
people, and your guy, Angelus, has a significant interest in keeping
*you* happy (however the two of you define "happy" <grin>). And
*he's* the proper person to measure your adequacy, not you (if you see
what I mean), since what counts is whether *he* wants you, rather than
whether you want you. And you've a laptop that rather indicates that
he does want you around...
[ Snip ]
>And I still don't get the phone call or the flag.
And I earnestly hope that no-one ever will...
... BUT if he has time, he might want to check into the phone call
thing. I have a friend/colleague who had been Navy, and who got The
Call when that surveillance plane collided with the Chinese fighter
and had to land in China. He and the crew chief were buddies, and had
served together, and had each other listed _as well as_ the next of
kin so they could lend support to each others families if it were ever
necessary. So the Navy, at least, has a mechanism for calling someone
else as well as the next of kin.
>ayla
Malc.
Bacchae
"ayla" wrote in message...
> I know that the form really has nothing
> to do with the function, but the idea of true time slavery
just blows my
> mind. So I went to the website and I poked around a bit, and
I'm overwhelmed
> by just how deeply she loved, was loved, and was committed to
this decision
> she had made with her life.
> And I feel inadequate.
> There is no way I can do that, completely give myself over to
fulfilling
> every order I'm given. I don't have the trust. I hate myself
for that.
I think you're missing the point. It appears that on some
level she didn't have the trust and commitment you like to
think she had. Unless the shooting was a complete accident,
which it appears it wasn't since she plead that she was in fear
for her life, then a whole bunch of stuff that wasn't presented
publicly in her "diary" was going on.
I think you should consider the strong possibility that what
was publicly presented wasn't the whole story. It is a pretty
common situation where we only tell the rosy side of out
situation to others and particularly on-line I think that
rosiness may well be burnished up a bit more than usual. I
don't know for sure but I think you should put less investment
in her writings than it appears you are.
> And then, to know that for ten years she immersed herself in
that, and now
> she has nothing. Her website is void. Her blog is void. Her
life is void,
> everything that she'd been for the last ten years is now
void, because of
> this, no matter how it happened.
You don't know this. We don't know this. She might be doing
the dance of joy to be finally away from something that was
destructive to her. Of course this "fear for her life" party
line might be something her lawyers though was her best defence
but the point is we don't know.
> Angelus mentioned that it seemed that was one good argument
towards having
> children. I think, if we have children together and I
surrender that much
> and then he dies, I could see myself having a psychotic
break, killing them
> all and then killing myself. I just don't know what I'd do.
If you even think this is a possibility I recommend you get
into counselling now. This is not an acceptable or a viable
alternative to grief. Period.
Ayla, I understand that sometimes in the BDSM headspace we put
ourselves in that certain things appear to be more profound but
you need to step outside that headspace for a breather and
think with some critical thought for a moment. Wait for after
your period if it helps but schedule yourself some time to
seriously think about it. People often shroud themselves in
semi-fictitious life roles that really have nothing to do with
what they are capable of doing when push comes to shove. Don't
fall for other people's public personae or the "'glamour" they
clothe themselves in. Their shit smells too. You are not
privy to what goes on behind their closed doors or behind their
eyes. What you might think is their life is really their
version of events that have little to no bearing to reality.
Don't buy into it especially if it is detrimental to your own
peace of mind.
Let this one go. There is way too much no one knows about the
reality of the situation for you to put any stock in what she
did or did not write or did or did not do in "meat life".
- Sandy
Bacchae
> However, and this is a big and important however, it may for
all we
> know have been an accidental shooting. That may be why she
was not
> indicted for murder and was named as a survivor in the obit.
If I were
> in Travis' family and I thought his wife were guilty of
murder, no way
> would I see her mentioned in his obit.So it is possible this
was a
> terrible accident.
It appears that the Grand Jury did not indict her (assuming
Susan Anton = Delia Day) because "she had lived in fear of her
life" (that from personal communication with Joseph McCain,
publisher, Choctaw Plaindealer).
That doesn't lend itself to the "accidental shooting" theory
but I suppose it could still be possible.
- Sandy
ayla
"Bacchae" <bac...@nospam.telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:J9s8c.3478$%w2.2738@clgrps13...
> It appears that the Grand Jury did not indict her (assuming
> Susan Anton = Delia Day) because "she had lived in fear of her
> life" (that from personal communication with Joseph McCain,
> publisher, Choctaw Plaindealer).
>
> That doesn't lend itself to the "accidental shooting" theory
> but I suppose it could still be possible.
>
It occurred to me, that if I was living in that situation, where I had given
myself into indefinite slavery to a man I loved more than life itself, then
he and I would come up with stories to give to juries to get out of trouble.
If you're playing like that you have to know something's going to go wrong,
and I wouldn't be at all surprised if she had been ordered to use their BDSM
lifestyle to get out of trouble if he should die during play.
We still don't know anything. But that's my theory.
ayla
ayla
>
> I think you're missing the point. It appears that on some
> level she didn't have the trust and commitment you like to
> think she had. Unless the shooting was a complete accident,
> which it appears it wasn't since she plead that she was in fear
> for her life, then a whole bunch of stuff that wasn't presented
> publicly in her "diary" was going on.
I think *you're* missing the point. Whatever really happened with delia,
this post was less about her and much more about me. I don't really care
what the real life situation was, it's really none of my business. What my
post was about was my perception of the situation and the way it affected
me, and my constant internal conflict with my submission.
So, I'm ignoring the rest of your post because I found it condescending and
arrogant, and completely missing the spirit of my post.
Thanks for taking the time to write, I appreciate your input but I just
didn't find it helpful.
ayla
Bacchae
> It occurred to me, that if I was living in that situation,
where I had given
> myself into indefinite slavery to a man I loved more than
life itself, then
> he and I would come up with stories to give to juries to get
out of trouble.
> If you're playing like that you have to know something's
going to go wrong,
> and I wouldn't be at all surprised if she had been ordered to
use their BDSM
> lifestyle to get out of trouble if he should die during play.
>
> We still don't know anything. But that's my theory.
And, with all due respect, that's why you're fucked up over
this whole issue. You're *imagining* her life. What do the
psychologists call it? Transference?
How do you know she didn't just get pissed off at him when he
asked her to do something that was just the one thing that got
on her "one remaining nerve"? We don't know. You don't know.
Stop imagining what was going on in their lives because it is
fucking up your own. Live your life, not hers.
- Sandy
ayla
> "ayla" wrote in message ...
>
> > It occurred to me, that if I was living in that situation,
> where I had given
> > myself into indefinite slavery to a man I loved more than
> life itself, then
> > he and I would come up with stories to give to juries to get
> out of trouble.
> > If you're playing like that you have to know something's
> going to go wrong,
> > and I wouldn't be at all surprised if she had been ordered to
> use their BDSM
> > lifestyle to get out of trouble if he should die during play.
> >
> > We still don't know anything. But that's my theory.
>
> And, with all due respect, that's why you're fucked up over
> this whole issue. You're *imagining* her life. What do the
> psychologists call it? Transference?
There was no respect in that. And I'm "fucked up over the whole issue" for
reasons that have NOTHING to do with delia and her life at all.
> How do you know she didn't just get pissed off at him when he
> asked her to do something that was just the one thing that got
> on her "one remaining nerve"? We don't know. You don't know.
How do you know? Stop jumping on my case just because I have a different
theory than you. I don't deserve your flaming. Quit being such a bitch to
me. I don't know what's going on in your life right now, but if you can't be
supportive, shut the fuck up. You're worse than the bitches that tell me I'm
a wrench in the feminist movement. You should know better.
> Stop imagining what was going on in their lives because it is
> fucking up your own. Live your life, not hers.
My life happens to not be fucked up, thank you very much. I'm having issues,
sure, but my Dominant is in a position where he could die before he ever got
to be my dominant. I think I have the right to be a little sensitive when it
comes to thinking about women whose dominants die. hell, I have the right to
be sensitive about whatever I want without you jumping all over my fucking
case. Again, the point of my purge was to refocus my jumbled feelings about
delia's situation onto me and figure out why it's hitting my buttons so
hard. You have no right to judge me for that.
so shut the fuck up.
Plonk.
ayla
"Thorney" <thor...@yaDELETEhoo.com> wrote in message
news:40621903...@yaDELETEhoo.com...
> I think the computer geeks used to call this a "core dump" rather
> than a "purge"; it means the same. A wonderful essay, ayla, and
> there have been excellent responses; I really liked SilverOz's but
> the others have been helpful, too. I think this is ssbb at its best,
> supporting a member who is having trouble emotionally dealing
> with something that involves wiitwd.
I think so too. For the most part, I'm glad I posted that essay here. it's
really helped me discover and evaluate some of my buttons and why they're
being pushed.
I've snipped the rest of your post because there's just too much in there
for me to keep saying, "yes, you're right, that's it" to. :-) Suffice it to
say I nodded and smiled and cried a little while reading it, because you're
very observant and your experience and advice are right on the money. I
forwarded it to Angelus so he could read it, and he agreed that it was an
excellent post.
Truth be told, after writing that I felt a lot better, and right after that
I connected with a good friend of mine, and before I knew it I'd gone from
psycho to (almost) sane in about 15 minutes. My crises of
indentity/submission/relationship/PMS burn very brightly, but as long as I
deal with them they burn out without doing a lot of damage and allow me to
see things that I wouldn't have seen otherwise. It's about the fifth time
I've done something like this during this deployment. The last time I got a
laptop. Hmmm....;-)
So thank you and thank everyone for being so supportive and insightful. I
figure that in this newsgroup, among the regular posters alone there's at
least a thousand years of combined experience in BDSM and relationship
dynamics. What a fabulous resource for me, and I thank you Thorney.
In Gratitude,
ayla
SilverOz
ayla <ayla...@hotpopidiotproof.com> wrote:
>
> what the real life situation was, it's really none of my business. What my
> post was about was my perception of the situation and the way it affected
> me, and my constant internal conflict with my submission.
Pssst... lots of us have that constant internal conflict!
The D&S in our heads isn't the D&S our bodies and emotions are doing,
and it's bloody annoying! Unfortunately, there's no way round it really
except to realise that we are like the people in Plato's cave, watching
shadows.
I've recently been reading a very interesting site
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ which has an awful lot about
mindset and ways of thinking.
When discussing the criminal mindset, he talks about Plato's cave but
updates it.
(http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/informationalbias.html)
"his idea is that most people are walking around watching movies in
their heads. It's kind of like those "spy sun glasses" that you see
where a small image is projected on the inside of the lens from a little
backwards pointing camera. So although you are looking at what is in
front of you, a small screen is playing a movie of what is behind you.
The difference is that the "screen" is inside your own head. It is your
mind's eye.
Problems occur when this movie is taken to be more "real" than what is
going on in front of you."
We all have this movie in our heads of what's real, what we should be
doing. And it's often not the same as what we actually are doing.
Sometimes that's a good thing, it gives incentive to change, to improve.
Sometimes it's a bad thing, because we will never be perfect, and we
will never live up to the fantasies. "you can never be too rich or too
thin", but you can die trying.... Same same submission. Striving to be
better is good, and the conflict can be part of that and give you
incentive to do better. It can also cut you down, obsess you with an
unobtainable ideal.
And that ideal could be crap too, don't forget to look at what you are
conflicting with. Is it really a good thing to be doing? Is it really
something you should be aspiring to? Is it healthy, will it really
scratch that itch?
And is the *conflict* real, or is it a weirdness you have got into?
When you state the problem out loud and write it down and look at it
objectively, are all the things you have written down true and
obtainable?
I used to obsess a lot. take the pefect and bash myself with it till I
was sure I was never going to be anything but a failure. I didn't have
much in the way of support which meant I didn't have anyone to tell me I
was full of it :)
I suspect you are in a difficult situation, with your dom off somewhere,
you can't do anything, you get little information, you are still trying
to work out who and what you are, conflicting advice and information
from all over....
You can expect to have internal conflicts over submission, cos that's
pretty much a given, if it was easy then it wouldn't be so hard :) But
do look at what your fears and conflicts are and make sure you aren't
setting yourself up to fail.
SilverOz
ayla
"Malcolm Weir" <ma...@gelt.org> wrote in message
news:3hd460h1pvv0jmr0t...@4ax.com...
> Eeeks... Welcome to this stage in your BDSM development!
Hah, thanks. Do I get a T-shirt at the end?
> It sucks... but I know a lot of people, myself included, who have at
> some time fallen into the trap of thinking that this universe of kink
> is a linear continuum, such that "TPE" is seen as "better" than "D/s
> relationships", which in turn is "better" than simple SM.
>
> It's an easy mistake to make, because there are people who want the
> TPE environment (real or imagined), and who use the progression via
> D/s relationships to get there!
I know the difference. Really, I do, and I know that not everything is
necessarily for me and I'm not necessarily wired for everything. My struggle
was threefold: My deepdarknotsosecret desire to have a TPE relationship, My
fear of actually entering into a TPE relationship because of lots of
upbringing conventions that I have to get over and my frustration at
acknowledging those conventions, and my fear of Angelus dying before we get
to enjoy the relationship we've so carefully and painfully negotiated over
the past year or so. Mostly irrational, but still very very real. Like I
said in my response to Thorney, I've learned when things start to build like
that for me, I have to let it out fast, or it will make me explode. And I've
learned a lot in the last two days about exactly where I am with this whole
thing, and I'm not psycho anymore. I've called it "a brief minor psychotic
break" and "a mini-nervous breakdown" in the past. I just needed it so I
could deal with the mess behind it. And there was MUCH less damage this time
than has happened in similar situations in the past, so I see progress.
::nodnodnod:: I'm liking this. :-)
> For me, though, it sounds like you're having a tough time keeping it
> in the front of your head that you are in a relationship involving two
> people, and your guy, Angelus, has a significant interest in keeping
> *you* happy (however the two of you define "happy" <grin>). And
> *he's* the proper person to measure your adequacy, not you (if you see
> what I mean), since what counts is whether *he* wants you, rather than
> whether you want you. And you've a laptop that rather indicates that
> he does want you around...
It was more about not knowing what I wanted or needed and also not knowing
how exactly to express that that was really eating at me. But there's the
adequacy thing in there, as well. And you're right, he does want to keep me
around:
sireangelus777 (23:34:22): listen to me carefully
sireangelus (23:34:32): you are everything I need
sireangelus (23:34:42): I do not want, nor need, what she did
sireangelus (23:34:48): I want, and need, what you do
sireangelus (23:34:51): every day
sireangelus (23:35:14): you wear my tags, and the things that mark you as
mine
sireangelus (23:35:26): but you're not afraid to speak up and let me know
that we're headed for a brick wall
sireangelus (23:36:03): you anchor me and I'm amazed at the strength that
you have in order to do that
sireangelus (23:36:18): you give me everything I want and everything I need
sireangelus (23:36:45): and even when you enfuriate me almost to the point
of anurism I love you more than anything in this word and I wouldn't trade
you for anything
sireangelus (23:36:48): or anybody
sireangelus (23:37:10): I don't want delia, or anyone just like that. I want
you. And only you
I think I'm pretty lucky. That was before I wrote my purge post, and it's
what got me really identifying what was going on. He's pretty good. 5800
miles and he can still put his finger on exactly what's wrong. His spelling
though.....;-)
> >And I still don't get the phone call or the flag.
>
> And I earnestly hope that no-one ever will...
>
> ... BUT if he has time, he might want to check into the phone call
> thing. I have a friend/colleague who had been Navy, and who got The
> Call when that surveillance plane collided with the Chinese fighter
> and had to land in China. He and the crew chief were buddies, and had
> served together, and had each other listed _as well as_ the next of
> kin so they could lend support to each others families if it were ever
> necessary. So the Navy, at least, has a mechanism for calling someone
> else as well as the next of kin.
When he left, we had only been together for a little over a month, so it was
really inappropriate at that time to have me listed that way. He'll be home
now in a little over a month, and a significant hurdle is almost behind us.
I'm not going to sit through another deployment without having his last
name. We'll be married before he goes anywhere else, that's already been
promised to me. And it's important, becaues then if something happens to
*me* while he's over there, he can get leave to come home and deal with it.
Something that no military branch will let you do right now, iirc.
Thanks for your post, Malc. Gave me stuff to think about and was very
helpful.
ayla
blueglass
just because I don't have the year it would take me to reply to more.
<< I've found myself deeply affected by this whole thing. >>
It sent me spinning too. For me part of it is longing for role models, for
proof that I can really do TPE, that it's not a fantasy. The aren't many people
I know of who are living it and I have alot invested in their success.
To have something like this go wrong and to see posts (elsewhere) suggesting
that TPE is edgeplay and caries the seeds of it's own destruction, like some
pressurized bottle of explosives, that perhaps she had never consented, that
maybe the bdsm was abuse.... I felt my own hopes and plans were being
questioned.
<< And I feel inadequate. >>
She would be quite inadequate at being you, and so would I. You (and I, and
anyone) are bound to have different strengths than hers. Knowing that doesn't
stop me from comparing myself to others either though.
<< I
hate myself for not wanting to be the active partner in the majority of my
sexual encounters, >>
I had to reply to this part because (while I'm not Delia) I wanted to let you
know that in at least one person's life wanting/needing sex to be for my
partner isn't some superior virtue. It's the only way I can do it.
Focussing on his or her sexual satisfaction I can be happy as can be. Turn the
focus back on me and ask me to "enjoy" while someone does me sexually? Nuh uh.
I can't do it. I'm miserable then. This means there are alot of people I don't
fit with sexually.
I think I've found someone recently where it all just clicks back and forth
between us, and I'm more glad than I can say. We seem to fit each other's
twists and turns. Angelus chose you, not someone else, and I'm betting he
enjoys your unique sexuality, that you two also have some level of fit between
your kinks.
blueglass
Bacchae
> I think I have the right to be a little sensitive when it
> comes to thinking about women whose dominants die.
Ayla, in this case this dominant didn't just die, she *killed*
him whether it was murder, self-defence, justifiable homocide
or whatever. I think that casts a different light on their
circumstances that hopefully you won't ever have to experience.
> hell, I have the right to
> be sensitive about whatever I want without you jumping all
over my fucking
> case. Again, the point of my purge was to refocus my jumbled
feelings about
> delia's situation onto me and figure out why it's hitting my
buttons so
> hard. You have no right to judge me for that.
You do indeed have the right to be sensitive about whatever you
desire and I am not jumping all over your feelings and in fact
I was hoping to try to reason enough with you such that I could
help you spare them. It is easy to get dragged into other
people's crises especially if you are a sensitive individual
with stressors in your own life (including being separated from
your loved one while he is in an unsafe environment!). I was
hoping that my comments would suggest to you that you step back
for a moment and separate yourself from a situation that is
obviously distressing you. Since we have so little real
information about what happened it doesn't do any of us any
good to fill in the blanks with things that distress us. Give
yourself a chance.
Oh, and by the way, I didn't consider myself to be flaming you
at all. In fact I was feeling warm wishes towards you and was
hoping that you would see that there is little enough
information about what happened that it might be helpful for
you to try to look at things with more cool and critical
thought.
> so shut the fuck up.
>
> Plonk.
<shrug> Whatever.
- Sandy
merwench
> For those of you still wondering. Apparently, she shot and killed her
> owner; no details available, other than she was not indicted by the
> grand jury.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2k8hv or
>
> http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?s=e0c04a74a7de15c1718
> a121f053b36b8&threadid=1053&perpage=15&pagenumber=5
>
> Clearly, something went terribly wrong. My very best wishes go out to
> Delia in what must be a very trying time, and my warmest thanks for
> the sharing she's done over the years. My selfish hope is that Delia
> eventually returns to the online community to share with us again (and
> I don't mean about this incident, to be clear) -- clear, lucid and
> intelligent voices are always welcome -- but more than that, I hope
> she finds peace.
>
There is an interesting exchange on this issue here:
Starting with an excerpt from one of her husband's weblogs.
merwench
--
I love you as certain dark things are to be loved, in
secret, between the shadow and the soul. --Pablo Neruda
merwench's poetry page: http://merpoetry.blogspot.com/
merwench's online gallery: http://photo.epson.com/index.html
Morag R
<merw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> There is an interesting exchange on this issue here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2fqh2
>
> Starting with an excerpt from one of her husband's weblogs.
That is one bothersome excerpt, and some of the stuff on back on his
live journal is worse imo.
Looks like he ended up losing "the war" in any case.