::grumbles:: Stupid checker....
JSin
CDeVillon wrote:
> I just feel the need to vent - hope you all don't mind.
>
not at all.
> I went to see City Of Angels today (awesome movie even if there's no BDSM. <g>)
> I had a gift certificate for Barnes & Noble which is just a floor lower then
> the theatre. So I went in and went to the sexuality section - I only found one
> book on BDSM - Different Loving. So I picked it up and went to the check-out to
> buy it. The checker gave me such a dirty look I was about to kill him. He went
> from a happy, smiling guy to this stone-faced man who couldn't say more then
> two words to me. It pissed me off to no end.
Coming from customer service background and knowing from experiance with dealing
with problem children at Barns and Nobel they seem to take thier customers
seriously. I think perhaps your best bet would have been to pick up a nice comment
card to be sent to thier corperate office. Last time I sent in a neg comment card I
got a letter of apoligy and a 10% off coupon.. Hell when you buy a 1/2 dozen books
at a time 10% aint too bad a discount.
--
JSin
The Lost Generation Custom Tattoo and Design
http://www.bigfoot.com/~lostgen
"The Diamond Crucifix in his ear is used to ward off the fear he has left his soul
in someones rented car." -Lou Reed
CDeVillon
I just feel the need to vent - hope you all don't mind.
I went to see City Of Angels today (awesome movie even if there's no BDSM. <g>)
I had a gift certificate for Barnes & Noble which is just a floor lower then
the theatre. So I went in and went to the sexuality section - I only found one
book on BDSM - Different Loving. So I picked it up and went to the check-out to
buy it. The checker gave me such a dirty look I was about to kill him. He went
from a happy, smiling guy to this stone-faced man who couldn't say more then
two words to me. It pissed me off to no end. Later my mother got on me asking
me if I was going to have sex with Jim when he comes to visit. (That's Master's
real name.) Got all bitchy about how it would "cheepen me" and shit like that.
::mutters:: Dumb sexually repressed bitch.
Okay, I feel better now that I vented.
~Jami - Sanity is highly overrated.~
http://members.aol.com/JamiJR/index.html
http://members.aol.com/CDeVillon/index.html
Sorry there's no D/s stuff on here. At least you can get to know my other
interests though!
Das pearl
>I just feel the need to vent - hope you all don't mind.
>
>I went to see City Of Angels today (awesome movie even if there's no BDSM.
Glad to hear that; and of course it is - Nicholas Cage is in it. :-)
>I had a gift certificate for Barnes & Noble which is just a floor lower then
>the theatre. So I went in and went to the sexuality section - I only found
>one
>book on BDSM - Different Loving. So I picked it up and went to the check-out
>to
>buy it. The checker gave me such a dirty look I was about to kill him. He
>went
>from a happy, smiling guy to this stone-faced man who couldn't say more then
>two words to me. It pissed me off to no end.
Ever heard the expression "kill them with kindness?" A variation on that would
have been my approach. I would have slid the book across the counter to him,
cupped one of my very ample and lovely breasts :-), taken a really deep intake
of breath and leaned across the counter..whispering breathlessly..."Ever have a
lover suck your nipples with a mouthful of Tabasco while he fucks you with a
dildo made of ice?"....then closed my eyes ever so slowly as I released that
breath...opened my eyes and said, very brightly, "It's Dreamy!!!!"Then cocked
my head: "How much did you say that was?" :-) . Oh, yes. Wink on the way out.
Later my mother got on me asking
>me if I was going to have sex with Jim when he comes to visit.
I have read some of your posts and recall that you are fairly young. Do you
live at home? And yes, it DOES matter.
(That's
>Master's
>real name.) Got all bitchy about how it would "cheepen me" and shit like
>that.
>::mutters:: Dumb sexually repressed bitch.
Maybe she is; maybe she is just concerned about her child and little girl. You
will always be her little girl. That never changes. Having said that, I
remember having a male friend coming to visit me (when I was 34!! and living in
my own home, thank you very much!) and my SISTER asked me the same thing. I was
very upset about it. I mentioned to my mom and asked her what she thought...(I
know my sis was mostly concerned about my well being; the way she expressed it
was what upset me.) The only thing my mother had to say about it was that she
would never ask. End of story. It was none of her business; nor was it my
sister's. Unless I chose to make it their business. (My safety is, however,
their business. That is the kind of family I have.) I didn't. There is now a
tactic agreement that no prying is done into my private life; or if it is and I
don't want to answer, I just raise an eyebrow and we move on.
>
If you are as young and inexperienced as I think I remember, then your
mother's concern will diminish as you get more experience under your belt and
she comes to trust your ability to take care of yourself in your
sexual/personal/private endeavors. Eventually I doubt she will give it much
thought at all.
So, to sum up, class!
A stranger apparently making judgement calls:
he is asking for it!!! :-)
A mom concerned about her child:
a mom concerned about her child.
The end.
p.s. I hate hearing anyone call their mom a bitch in a public forum. :-(
CDeVillon
>A mom concerned about her child:
>
>a mom concerned about her child.
>
>
>
>The end.
>
>p.s. I hate hearing anyone call their mom a bitch in a public forum. :-(
Sorry, but it's true. I'm 21 and even if I do live at home (because the deal is
as long as I live with them they'll pay for college) it's none of her buisness
who I have sex with as long as I'm not doing it in the house, in their bed, and
not doing drugs or practicing unsafe behavior - IE: No condoms, sex with
strangers....
Tigress
JSin wrote in article <3532F978...@aracnet.com>...
> CDeVillon wrote:
> > I went to see City Of Angels today (awesome movie even if there's no
> > I had a gift certificate for Barnes & Noble which is just a floor lower
then
> > the theatre. So I went in and went to the sexuality section - I only
found one
> > book on BDSM - Different Loving. So I picked it up and went to the
check-out to
> > buy it. The checker gave me such a dirty look I was about to kill him.
He went
> > from a happy, smiling guy to this stone-faced man who couldn't say more
then
> > two words to me. It pissed me off to no end.
>
dealing
> with problem children at Barns and Nobel they seem to take thier
customers
> seriously. I think perhaps your best bet would have been to pick up a
nice comment
> card to be sent to thier corperate office. Last time I sent in a neg
comment card I
> got a letter of apoligy and a 10% off coupon.. Hell when you buy a 1/2
dozen books
> at a time 10% aint too bad a discount.
Absolutely. If Barnes & Noble carries it, they support the right of anyone
to buy it, and to receive exemplary customer service while doing so.
Filling out a customer service response card is a good bet. They DO get
read. Personally, in a situation like this, I'd take note of the seller's
name, fill out a card calmly explaining why I thought I'd received
substandard service, then politely ask to speak to the manager on duty. I'd
give the manager the card and explain politely why I felt it necessary to
fill out the card, and express the wish that they would discuss the issue
with the employee. Polite, reasoned requests for action should receive
prompt, courteous responses. If they don't, take it to district or
national. B&N prides itself on its service, and believe me, they WANT to
know if there's an unhappy customer.
Pleasant relationship with my local B&N here <g>,
Tigress
TyMeDwn1st
cdev...@aol.com (CDeVillon) wrote:
>I just feel the need to vent - hope you all don't mind.
Nope.
>I had a gift certificate for Barnes & Noble which is just a floor
>lower then the theatre. So I went in and went to the sexuality
>section - I only found one book on BDSM - Different Loving.
>So I picked it up and went to the check-out to buy it. The
>checker gave me such a dirty look I was about to kill him. He
>went from a happy, smiling guy to this stone-faced man who
>couldn't say more then two words to me.
Hmmmm... Either he's seriously vanilla/disapproving or he's uncomfortable
dealing with sexually-oriented material with a young female customer. Either
way, he's probably in the wrong line of work (not that we all get to choose how
we pay the rent). My *own* style when faced with this situation is to totally
ignore it. I carry on my usual polite, friendly banter -- even to a
hatchet-faced response -- and make it plain by my demeanor that *I* don't see
anything unusual or worth noting about <whatever is going on>.
I'd suggest a word or two -- polite ones, please -- with the store manager.
While in many life-situations being "civil" rather than "friendly" is perfectly
acceptable, retail sales is not generally considered to be one of them.
>Later my mother got on me asking me if I was going to have sex
>with Jim when he comes to visit. (That's Master's real name.) Got
>all bitchy about how it would "cheepen me" and shit like that.
>::mutters:: Dumb sexually repressed bitch.
>
>Okay, I feel better now that I vented.
Well, Jami, now that you feel better: Speaking as a mother and a former
daughter, I don't like your language about *your* mother. It speaks ill of
you, not of her.
Okay, I feel better now that I vented <smile>.
There are a couple of issues going on here. First and most important (IMHO),
you made a consentual decision to continue your childhood when you agreed to
stay at home while you attend college. I understand that that may be a
financial necessity for you, but this sort of quid pro quo is part of Growing
Up. We ALL have to make trade-offs between personal autonomy and survival
income, some of them less pleasant than others. (I note for the record that
there may be a strong similarity of situations between you and the bookseller
discussed above when we look toward "what I have do to provide for myself.")
You will ALWAYS be your mother's child, whether you're 18, 21, 28, or 40. She
worries about whether you're Doing The Right Thing, and she worries about
whether she was a good enough mother to teach you The Right Thing and if she
was, why you don't do The Right Thing all the time. I'm not sure I would
consider a view that "casual sex will cheapen you" to be an indication of
sexual repression so much as simply a different value system. You remember,
YKINMKBYKIOK, don't you? Well, it's her kink, and it's okay. And you're there
*consentually,* so listen to it with as much grace as you can muster. Bite
your tongue till you think you'll bleed to death, if necessary. If you're
desperate for something to say, tell her -- politely but firmly -- that this
isn't a topic you are going to discuss. Repeat that one little phrase as often
as necessary. Smile, and repeat it. (Think to yourself how amazingly annoying
this is to her, and smile again.)
Your mother worries about you, wants what she thinks is best for you, and feels
it's her job to see that you want and get <what she wants> too. It's a fact of
life, Jami. Deal with it. With some degree of maturity, politeness, and
respect, please. If that's simply not possible, distance yourself from the
source of annoyance by moving out, which will give you a lot more leverage for
an argument about being an adult who can make her own damned decisions about
sex.
Ty
Who is mostly just
a slightly skewed
Donna Reed
... and who is the proud mother of a 28-year-old son who puts up cheerfully
with her mothering--and then ignores most of it.
Spectrum
In article <199804140146...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Jami <cdev...@aol.com> wrote:
>I just feel the need to vent - hope you all don't mind.
>
>I went to see City Of Angels today (awesome movie even if there's
>no BDSM. <g>)
No BDSM?
The movie is about the ultimate control of subs: direct mind
control of all aspects of reality, with a city of humans as subs.
There's a rotating bondage wheel (Hey, LS, you been contracting to
the movies?<G>), a rolling one-person bondage cage, needle-play,
the whole plot is a mind-fuck, and there's probably lots of other
stuff I missed. Great "Metropolis"-like sets too.
>I had a gift certificate for Barnes & Noble which is just a floor
>lower then the theatre. So I went in and went to the sexuality
>section - I only found one book on BDSM - Different Loving. So I
>picked it up and went to the check-out to buy it. The checker gave
>me such a dirty look I was about to kill him. He went from a
>happy, smiling guy to this stone-faced man who couldn't say more
>then two words to me. It pissed me off to no end.
YMMV. Borders has a full erotica section, in addition to the
sexuality section, with many kinky titles. I've gotten some smiles
from the clerks, but no flack.
>Later my mother
>got on me asking me if I was going to have sex with Jim when he
>comes to visit. (That's Master's real name.) Got all bitchy about
>how it would "cheepen me" and shit like that. ::mutters:: Dumb
>sexually repressed bitch.
Parents. What can most ofus say, except to express sympathy.
>Okay, I feel better now that I vented.
That's one of the purposes of SSB.
-^-^spectrum-^^- spec...@magenta.com Cupcake #697
Tales of the ASBWorld: http://magenta.com/lmnop/users/spectrum/index.html
The description of Pervhome and the Guestbook are there also.
"We are the people our parents warned us about." - Buffett
Roger
On 14 Apr 1998 04:25:54 GMT, cdev...@aol.com (CDeVillon) wrote:
>Sorry, but it's true. I'm 21 and even if I do live at home (because the deal is
>as long as I live with them they'll pay for college) it's none of her buisness
>who I have sex with as long as I'm not doing it in the house, in their bed, and
>not doing drugs or practicing unsafe behavior - IE: No condoms, sex with
>strangers....
Jami,
You're right... it's none of her business, in the sense that
she shouldn't attempt to actively interfere in the ways and means of
your sex life.
But it is her *concern*. Because in theory, she cares about
you and your welfare. I mean, in all honesty, would you really want a
relationship with your mother where she didn't care enough to have an
opinion?
Just a thought.
--Roger
Avril
CDeVillon wrote:
>
> I just feel the need to vent - hope you all don't mind.<
Too bad the certificate wasn't to Borders. Not only do their staff (in
every city in which I've been into a Borders) seem to be a bit less
prejudicial and a lot more interested in the wonderful variety of
reading material and music available, but they also special order
anything from just about anyone without *too* much eyelid batting.
Raise a little stinkum with the regional office or the home office of
Barnes and Noble, if you wish. You *may* get a response. They still
think they're a bookstore at the home office, even if some of the hired
help around in some stores in some regions thinks it has a moral
obligation to make the varietal gusto of "certain customers" as
unpalatable as possible.
I can go broke in a bookstore only a tad faster than I can in a home and
garden center. As much a part of my center as being kinky is, toy
stores don't even go into my top 5 list.
Regards,
Avril
(insert usual tagline here.)
Jul...@hotmail.com
In article <199804140146...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
cdev...@aol.com (CDeVillon) wrote:
> So I went in and went to the sexuality section - I only found one
> book on BDSM - Different Loving. So I picked it up and went to the check-out
>to
> buy it. The checker gave me such a dirty look I was about to kill him. He
>went
> from a happy, smiling guy to this stone-faced man who couldn't say more then
> two words to me. It pissed me off to no end.
Feh, know what you mean. I prefer to buy my smutty books from sex stores
because I just hate snarky sales clerks. I think I deeply traumatized a woman
at my local video store by renting a stack of porn tapes. We chatted
when I first came in about 30s movies with sassy female characters.
When I went to check out 4 porn tapes and one musical, her eyes got
really wide and scared looking, she stuttered something about her terminal not
working, and she fled to the back room. She sent someone else out to
deal with me. I know that store has a policy of allowing its workers
to not deal with adult video transactions if they don't want to, but
damn I didn't think a non sleazy woman renting porn would be so scary. I was
also sad because she is a cute redhead with long curly hair.
However, I too came from a place where the only place you could buy smutty
books was at Barnes & Noble and such. The thing to do when you get snarkiness
is to write up a complaint letter, or say "I'd like to speak to your manager
please." Another possiblity is mail order. Maybe rent a PO box for the
occasion.
Julia
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
CDeVillon
I know some of you don't like what I called my mom but that's how I view her.
She's not the great person she pretends to be for one thing, she's a
manipulator for one, treats me like the spawn of Satan at times if I just
happen to breath heavy or sigh. Oh, there's times when she's a great person and
I do love her, but she's still sexually repressed (Remember, this is the woman
who thinks masterbation is only for men and whores - and she's a homophobic as
well.) as well as a few other things. And while I don't mind that she cares
about me I would like to see her treat me as the adult she keeps yelling at me
that I am. She treats me like an adult in *nothing* - she tells me when to go
to school, thinks I should still have a bedtime set by her, when I try to cook
even just a grilled cheeze she hangs over my shoulder as if she was afraid I'd
burn the house down (Mom, if I can cook an entire Thanksgiving dinner I can
make a grilled cheeze!) - She also never listens to reason and never believes
me when I tell the truth. If I wasn't so desperate to see my dreams come true
I'd get a full time job and move out. But I know myself and know that I could
never do what I want or go to college to eventually do what I want and have a
job at the same time. I'm *very* easily stressed out and ulcer-prone.
She *is* a bitch even if she does care. With her phony tears and her way of
twisting a person's words and throwing them back - and the fact that everyone
believes her even if they know better. Even though I had asked my father for
help getting regerstered in college for this semsester right in front of the
entire family, she told my brother Paul that I wasn't even trying to go to
school and he believed her, even though he knew better.
Xiphias Gladius
cdev...@aol.com (CDeVillon) writes:
>I went to see City Of Angels today (awesome movie even if there's no BDSM. <g>)
>I had a gift certificate for Barnes & Noble which is just a floor lower then
>the theatre. So I went in and went to the sexuality section - I only found one
>book on BDSM - Different Loving. So I picked it up and went to the check-out to
>buy it. The checker gave me such a dirty look I was about to kill him. He went
>from a happy, smiling guy to this stone-faced man who couldn't say more then
>two words to me. It pissed me off to no end.
Write a letter of complaint to the management.
Later my mother got on me asking
>me if I was going to have sex with Jim when he comes to visit. (That's Master's
>real name.) Got all bitchy about how it would "cheepen me" and shit like that.
>::mutters:: Dumb sexually repressed bitch.
The proper response to that question is to look shocked, and confused, and
say, "I'm sorry, it sounded like you asked my something, but I must have
misheard, because you wouldn't have asked me what I thought you asked me."
If she repeats the question, you say, "The acoustics in here must be
awful. It sounded like you said something."
And you continue to politely not hear the question until she stops asking.
Nobody has the right to ask you that, so you have the obligation to not
hear it if someone does ask you.
- Ian
Lawless
Xiphias Gladius wrote:
>And you continue to politely not hear the question until she stops asking.
>Nobody has the right to ask you that, so you have the obligation to not
>hear it if someone does ask you.
Sadly, as Ty has pointed out, choosing to stay with parents -does- more
or less give them certain "rights". More, I think, then when you're not
of age, because society and the law says you have to then - it wasn't a
matter of choice. To a certain extent, you choose to live in their
house, you choose to abide by their rules and values. Pretending not to
hear the question isn't exactly the best way to demonstrate the maturity
a person would want to assert in such a situation.
Better by far, I think, to smile, thank her for her concern and simply
inform the parent that responsible choices will be maade regarding such
matters. If pressed, a calm statement that she doesn't consider such
topics to be appropriate for conversation might be called for.
Of course, this, as well as other assertions of independence might cost
someone the free room and board and college. IMO, most parents who make
such "offers" of continued support as long as their children stay at
home do so for the purpose of maintaining a dependance on them, and thus
expect a certain control over the child's behavior and conduct.
In effect, it's a choice between freedom and comfort, in such a case.
At a minimum the dependent has to choose to put up with lectures and
interogations; worse case is having to accept curfews and rules to
avoid losing the housing and support.
Choosing to stay, like getting a driver's license in most states, is
"implied consent" to certain things. YMMV - but myself, I got into
the military and out of my parents domicile at first opportunity, and
my parents weren't even all that intrusive, except with regards to
what I did in their house.
-- | In your head, no car is fast enough,
-- \_awless is : Chase Vogelsberg | In your heart, no love is true.
-- | Will it ruin all your solitary fancies
-- | If I tell you that it isn't only you?
-- A wolf by any other flame.... | -- Emma Bull
MissJudi
edi...@section12.com (Roger) wrote:
My relationship with my mother gets better the older we both get. She
knows better than to offer unsolicited advice, and I know the same,
for her. I also know without a doubt that when I need her clear
thinking, a shoulder to sob on or just a good ear to listen, she's
well-versed in all these things. Again, she knows the same applies to
me.
(Bless her heart, we slid back a bit this weekend. She's under a great
deal of stress... the 1st year anniversary of her husband's death is
approaching, she's having health problems, financial problems she
won't let me help with, etc. The combined stress made her a little
nuts and she started hitting me with "shoulds" and "you must!''s, but
I held my temper and reminded myself of what she's going through: she
has very little control over her world right now, and she desperately
needs to feel *in control* of something, even if it's me. She knows
perfectly well that she doesn't control me anymore, but if having the
illusion, even for a few hours, made her day go smoother, I was more
than willing to put up with it.)
I think that, as our parents see us grow into reasonable adults,
willing to take responsibility for our own actions, they begin to know
that it's OK to let go some. They no longer fear for our safety 24/7.
I look forward to the day when my daughter and I reach this same
point, as I have never enjoyed my mother's company so much as I do
now.
*ahem* Excuse me, I have to go call my mom... :)))
Das pearl
>
>I know some of you don't like what I called my mom but that's how I view her.
No, I certainly don't like it. I think I was one of the first to respond to
your initial post. Now I wish I hadn't.
>She's not the great person she pretends to be for one thing, she's a
>manipulator for one, treats me like the spawn of Satan at times if I just
>happen to breath heavy or sigh. Oh, there's times when she's a great person
>and
>I do love her, but she's still sexually repressed (Remember, this is the
>woman
>who thinks masterbation
Masturbation.
is only for men and whores - and she's a homophobic
>as
>well.)
Big deal.
as well as a few other things. And while I don't mind that she cares
>about me I would like to see her treat me as the adult she keeps yelling at
>me
>that I am
You don't sound like one to me. At all. You sound like a spoiled brat.
. She treats me like an adult in *nothing* - she tells me when to go
>to school, thinks I should still have a bedtime set by her, when I try to
>cook
>even just a grilled cheeze she hangs over my shoulder as if she was afraid
>I'd
>burn the house down
cheese. cheese. And yes, spelling does matter.
(Mom, if I can cook an entire Thanksgiving dinner I can
>make a grilled cheeze!) - She also never listens to reason and never believes
>me when I tell the truth. If I wasn't so desperate
why, at 21, are you desperate?
to see my dreams come true
>I'd get a full time job and move out. But I know myself and know that I could
>never do what I want or go to college to eventually do what I want and have a
>job at the same time.
Bullshit. I worked my way through college (with the exception of my first -
incredible - year which was spent at an international college in London -
thanks to my MOM!!!) with no loans, no scholarships, no nothing but my wages -
earned by me. I was on the Dean's List most semesters. I was also NOT living at
home. I left my home three months after I graduated from high school (where I
was a big deal!! :-) by my choice.I went back home a few times for a few months
each time. But that was it. And you know, I really love and admire my mom. I
think you need to stop your belly aching.
I'm *very* easily stressed out and ulcer-prone.
Yawn. Who isn't? If you are complaining NOW at 21 about your life, have I got
news for you. Yes, Jami, it is annoying when older people say things like that.
But you are setting yourself up for it. I can't help but wonder why you aren't
out enjoying the things that ONLY people who are 21 can??? You can't go back.
Ever.
>
>She *is* a bitch even if she does care. With her phony tears and her way of
>twisting a person's words and throwing them back - and the fact that everyone
>believes her even if they know better
The kindest thing I can say to you is that you have the pleasure and advantage
of many years of growth and learning ahead of you. I'll bet that your 'Dom'
will not seem so wonderful in a few years. As a matter of fact, I bet he won't
seem so wonderful within six months. Unless he is in your age range, which I
doubt, he is seeking to take advantage of you. You know this, Jami. It makes me
sad; but you are an adult as you keep saying. How do you think the rest of us
became adults????? Same way you are doing!
. Even though I had asked my father for
>help getting regerstered
registered, Jami. registered. :-(
in college for this semsester right in front of the
>entire family, she told my brother Paul that I wasn't even trying to go to
>school and he believed her, even though he knew better.
:-( You have alot of growing up to do. I wish you were not spending your time
here. This is NOT the place for you.
- gretchen,
putting on flame retardant clothing.
>
SilverOz
In soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm on 14 Apr 1998 04:25:54 GMT
CDeVillon <cdev...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>Sorry, but it's true. I'm 21 and even if I do live at home (because the deal is
>as long as I live with them they'll pay for college) it's none of her buisness
>who I have sex with as long as I'm not doing it in the house, in their bed, and
I dunno - it's a difficult call.
Your choice I guess - live with the hassle, or give up the room,board,
and fees.
You are taking things from them - your baord and your fees - and they
think they therefore have rights over you.
If you don't think that, you get to negotiate about those rights and
if that doesn't work you accept the hassle or you give up the
college.
Which is worth more to you?
SilverOz
Jeff Mach
Different Loving--great book.
(Though not quite up there with my favorites, "Screw The Roses, Send Me The Thorns" and "The Bottoming
Book"...and, damn, that reminds me, I really should scrape up the cash to buy "The Topping Book" one of these
days...
Hmmm, I probably would have laughed, myself. Really loudly. And waggled my eyebrows (a favorite
pasttime anyway.) Then I would've asked him if he wanted a flyer for RUST.
I mean, hell, I spend a lot of time on-campus doing outreach, trying to educate and counter some
media images...
...I guess I'm allowed to make one person dislike us just a little bit more, no?
-Jeff Mach
RUST
Jeff Mach
Hmmm.
I notice that there's a lot of commentary about the part where you call your mother a bitch.
I'll just say this:
The relationship between a bookbuyer and a Barnes & Noble checker is simple, lasts minutes at most,
and well-defined, not only by societal custom, but also more explicitly by things such as Barnes & Noble's
employee-customer policies.
The relationship between a person and his/her/its mother is, needless to say, exponentially more
complex.
I appreciate the commentary of many out there who made the point that mothers often do things which
seem "bitchy" to their children, when in fact those actions are expressions of love and, frequently, wisdom.
But I'm a little puzzled by the way that so many people made assumptions about the situation. It wasn't
a matter of, "Perhaps your mother is worried, not bitchy", but more, "Your mother isn't a bitch!"
Well, I support you, Jami. If you say your mother's a bitch, I'm willing to take it on faith, at
least until I have evidence otherwise. :)
-Jeff Mach
(who looks 30, is 23, and feels somewhere between nine and ninety, depending on the day.)
trishah
trishah sits at her computer reading what Das pearl has to say to this
young woman......
> >I know some of you don't like what I called my mom but that's how I view
her.
hmmmm....I didn't read the initial post, I confess......wonder what the
story is....
>
> No, I certainly don't like it. I think I was one of the first to respond
to
> your initial post. Now I wish I hadn't.
hmmmm.....I always read Das pearl because she has a good mind and level
personality.....has to be something to not like. And why does she wish now
she hadn't responded??
>
> >She's not the great person she pretends to be for one thing [.....]
(Remember, this is the woman who thinks masterbation
>
> Masturbation.
thank you! spelling is important. and just how old is this young woman??
>
> is only for men and whores - and she's a homophobic
> >as
> >well.)
>
> Big deal.
nodnodnod. Lucky is the person who's mom doesn't sound at least a little
like this person's....who's view is most likely a tiny bit distorted.
>
> as well as a few other things. And while I don't mind that she cares
> >about me [...]
You don't **MIND** that she cares about you??!?!??!!!?!?!?! seesh.
>
> You don't sound like one to me. At all. You sound like a spoiled brat.
nodding again. And an ungrateful spoiled child, to boot.
>
> . She treats me like an adult in *nothing* - she tells me when to go
> >to school, thinks I should still have a bedtime set by her, when I try
to
> >cook
> >even just a grilled cheeze she hangs over my shoulder as if she was
afraid
> >I'd
> >burn the house down
>
> cheese. cheese. And yes, spelling does matter.
**grin** See?? Spelling matters! And so what if she nags you out the
door to get to school on time?? And you live in her house....perhaps she
feels it's her right to set your bedtime, eh? And does she think she has
reason to fear the results of your cooking? Even if none of the above are
true....even if I'm playing the devil's advocate and she's controlling as
heck....all you have to do is move out. Right?
>
> (Mom, if I can cook an entire Thanksgiving dinner I can
> >make a grilled cheeze!) - She also never listens to reason and never
believes
> >me when I tell the truth. If I wasn't so desperate
>
> why, at 21, are you desperate?
Wait.....she's desperate to achieve her goals and dreams. Not a bad thing
in a 21 year old.
>
> to see my dreams come true
> >I'd get a full time job and move out. But I know myself and know that I
could
> >never do what I want or go to college to eventually do what I want and
have a
> >job at the same time.
>
> Bullshit. I worked my way through college [...] I think you need to
stop your belly >aching.
Well, at least she's being realistic about just how much work she's willing
to put forth to achieve those goals and dreams.... On the other hand, I
think she should stop her belly aching. **chuckling**
>
> I'm *very* easily stressed out and ulcer-prone.
>
> Yawn. Who isn't? If you are complaining NOW at 21 about your life, have I
got
> news for you. Yes, Jami, it is annoying when older people say things like
that.
> But you are setting yourself up for it. I can't help but wonder why you
aren't
> out enjoying the things that ONLY people who are 21 can??? You can't go
back.
> Ever.
> >
Read that twice, Jami. Better yet....three times. Read it until you
understand it.
> >She *is* a bitch even if she does care.
Do you know how many folks out there don't have *anyone*, perfect or not,
that really care about them??
>
> The kindest thing I can say to you is that you have the pleasure and
advantage
> of many years of growth and learning ahead of you. [....]
That was kind. I also think it was quite correct. It's life grand?
> > . Even though I had asked my father for
> >help getting regerstered
>
> registered, Jami. registered. :-(
ROFL!!! I can just hear your tone of type, gretchen!
You know, Jami, old sayings don't get to be old for nuttin'. Remember this
one?
Water off a ducks back or
Don't sweat the small stuff
Pick and choose your battles, Jami. Sit down with a pen and paper if it
will help. Write down what's important to you. Then make notes about the
problems you'll face concerning those important things. That will not
include getting along with a mom who really cares about you and is trying
to help you, I think. I venture that those important battles should be
the ones you should either be fighting or should be preparing to fight.
Don't sweat the small stuff, Jami. *smiling*
trishah
Tinnekke Bebout
On 14 Apr 1998, CDeVillon wrote:
> I just feel the need to vent - hope you all don't mind.
>
> I went to see City Of Angels today (awesome movie even if there's no BDSM. <g>)
> I had a gift certificate for Barnes & Noble which is just a floor lower then
> the theatre. So I went in and went to the sexuality section - I only found one
> book on BDSM - Different Loving. So I picked it up and went to the check-out to
> buy it. The checker gave me such a dirty look I was about to kill him. He went
> from a happy, smiling guy to this stone-faced man who couldn't say more then
> two words to me. It pissed me off to no end. Later my mother got on me asking
> me if I was going to have sex with Jim when he comes to visit. (That's Master's
> real name.) Got all bitchy about how it would "cheepen me" and shit like that.
> ::mutters:: Dumb sexually repressed bitch.
>
> Okay, I feel better now that I vented.
>
> ~Jami - Sanity is highly overrated.~
>
> http://members.aol.com/JamiJR/index.html
> http://members.aol.com/CDeVillon/index.html
> Sorry there's no D/s stuff on here. At least you can get to know my other
> interests though!
>
>
Bleah, what a sucky day, no wonder you need to vent. If I had had someone
treat me so rudely in a place like that I would have asked for the manager
(but that's just me, I've done customer service type jobs and won't put up
with rude behaviour.)
-Tink
A soul in tension that's learning to fly
Condition grounded but determined to try
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I
Avril
The Demon Prince wrote:
>
>
> Yeppers! Bookstores, Trader Joe's = Big Trouble! In case you aren't
> dead broke, Renaissance Faires will pretty much take care of it . . .
>
I used to work Renfaires so I'm immune to them. Keep me out of art
galleries, art supply stores, as well.
I mail ordered from Daniel Smith for decades. Now I live just down the
highway from the place. I shipped hundreds of pounds of DS goodies up
here for my studio. (shakes head)
Avril
(Color me perennially broke)
The Lone Stranger
In article <6gvpub$43p$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
Spectrum <spec...@magenta.com> wrote:
:
:There's a rotating bondage wheel (Hey, LS, you been contracting to
:the movies?<G>), a rolling one-person bondage cage, ...
[SNIP]
Contracting to the movies? Don't I wish! Nope, the cross is still
one-of-a-kind. I did just break in a new industrial sewing machine by
making a combo sling/hammock that got field tested at Katharine's adobe
abode last weekend. Used as a sling it turned out to be so exquisitely
comfortable that I had someone fall sound asleep, fully bound in the
traditional sling position, while under my tender care. Some might call
such gentleness a misuse of S&M equipment. But hey, it's my sling, and
I'll do what I want with it.
-^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^^ -^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^^ - -^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^^ -^^ ^- ^--
Another random emission from the twisted mind of
- The Lone Stranger - Foole Groupie <kemo...@lrmedia.com>
Philip the Foole
The Lone Stranger wrote:
> I did just break in a new industrial sewing machine by
> making a combo sling/hammock that got field tested at Katharine's adobe
> abode last weekend. Used as a sling it turned out to be so exquisitely
> comfortable that I had someone fall sound asleep, fully bound in the
> traditional sling position, while under my tender care. Some might call
> such gentleness a misuse of S&M equipment. But hey, it's my sling, and
> I'll do what I want with it.
Foole: Hmmm. If your bottoms are falling asleep on you, maybe you need
to study up a bit with Katie and Margaret to liven up your topping
technique, Masked Man.
Your Humble Jester,
Philip the Foole
Steven S. Davis
Das pearl (dasp...@aol.com) wrote:
: :-( You have alot of growing up to do. I wish you were not spending
: your time here. This is NOT the place for you.
<shrug>
It may or may not be. It's not your place to say who does or doesn't
belong here, especially when there isn't even the weak crutch of
legality (as if legality had anything to do with ethics, safety,
logic, or anything really matters) when someone is 21 years of age.
SSB isn't a very useful place to conduct debates about the one's
parents, as usually no one here will have a clue about the specific
situation and so people will insert their own relationship with
their parents (or perhaps, if they are parents, their relationships
with their own children) into the mix.
Which is something I'm going to try to avoid doing. I've no
idea what kind of persom Jami is or what kind of person her
mother is. I do know that not all parents are good or caring
or wise, though some are, and that some parents are selfish
and manipulative, and that some are wastes of wetware worthy
of wetwork. And I know that I can't know what category someones
parents fall into solely from reading that person's usenet posts
(well, years of reading Bill Bohrer's posts (under various
names) did pretty much convince me not to ever recommend
his parents as babysitters, but that's a rare case).
And I also know that some adult children are indeed selfish brats.
And that people living in other people's houses, especially
for free, often have to either accomodate the people sheltering
them or leave, and whether that's fair or not is utterly
meaningless.
And, FWIW, I know some ways to get "Different Loving" (ah, the
book, that is) without dealing with bigotted bookstore clerks.
BTW & FWIW, it's available in paperback now (I like to think that
means I didn't enrich Jon Jacobs as much as buying it in hard cover
would have, but I don't know the economics of book publishing;
I probably should have tried to buy it used).
Among the many places to check for BDSM books are:
Diversified Services
P.O. Box 35737
Brighton, MA 02135
Phone: 617-787-7426
Email: MEN...@BDSBBS.COM
WWW: http://www.bdsbbs.com/divers.html
QSM
P.O. Box 880154
San Franciso, CA 94188
Phone: 800-537-5815
Fax: 415-550-7117
WWW: http://www.qualitysm.com
Blowfish (415) 285-6064 (voice); (415) 282-1618 (fax)
in...@blowfish.com
http://www.blowfish.com/
Good Vibrations (415) 974-8990 1-800-289-8423
good...@well.com
http://www.goodvibes.com
Greenery Press: 3739 Balboa Avenue, #195, San Fransisco, CA 94121
http://www.bigrock.com/~greenery/index.html
1-888-944-4434
The Stockroom 1-800-755-8697, (213) 666-2121 (phone)
(formerly 1-800-357-8697, (213) 913-5976 (fax)
JT's Toys) Email: jtt...@access.digex.com, jtt...@world.std.com
URL: gopher://ftp.std.com/11/vendors/jttoys
URL: ftp://ftp.std.com/pub/jttoys/
URL: http://www.stockroom.com
http://www.the-bookstore.com has many adult books and magazines
The above list is a very incomplete this of establishments which
sell books, among other things. For a list of fetish stores,
take a look at the list on Electra's page, at:
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/1300/usdirect.html
For a printed directory to all kinds of BDSM businesses, organizations,
and resources (as well as other sex-positive resources for all for
various types of sexualities and lifestyles), look in "The Black Book"
The Black Book, 4th edition, 1996. ISBN 0-9637401-3-X
Edited by Bill Brent. Published by Black Books.
Black Books
P.O. Box 31155
San Francisco, CA 94131-0155
Phone: 415-431-0171 / Fax: 415-431-0172 / Email: Bla...@queernet.org
URL: http://www.queernet.org/BlackBooks/
There's a 4th edition Supplement, 1997.
The soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm FAQ is available from the WWW at:
http://www.unrealities.com/adult/ssbb/faq.htm
The soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm charter is available at:
http://www.mindspring.com/~frites/charter.htm
Both can be found on the SSB Webpage, the URL of which is:
http://www.phszx81.demon.co.uk/ssb/
The "Welcome to ASB !", almost all of which applies to SSB,
can be found at:
http://www.mindspring.com/~frites/wel.htm
***************************************************************************
Steven S. Davis * ssd...@ot.com * s...@magenta.com * sdup...@delphi.com
http://links.magenta.com/lmnop/intro.html (go to Kinky page, Users section)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
CDeVillon
Some of you might view me as a brat - but I don't care. You don't live here so
you don't know what it's like.
I spent my free time working for the city cleaning up human shit out of public
restrooms to play back the money I owe my parents. My three older brothers have
*never once* tried to pay back the money they owe. My oldest brother, Paul, is
an ex-druggie who once got my dad to co-sign a loan, made *one* payment and
left the rest for my dad to pay. Leaving my parents with over $25,000 to pay
off - which they had to do to keep their credit history clear. Has he made one
attempt now that he's off drugs to pay it back? No. Instead he sits around the
house eatting all day doing nothing to pitch in. I think he's more of the brat
then I am since I at least *try* to do things and in the long run I'm more
responsable then him.
As for cooking I'm actually quite good at it. I can cook anything following the
recipe except angel food cake. But from what I understand that's a very tough
thing to cook. I can make a turkey so juicy the meat falls right off the bone.
Call me a brat if you like, but in my opinion a brat does not try to pay back
money they owe, pitch in and try to help, try to keep quiet when people are
sleeping, goes out of their way to see to it that something gets done, acts
responsable, and even tries to cater to what their parents want. *All* I ask is
that they keep their noses out of my sex life. I'm not having sex in their
home. I'm not out late cursing the bars - I don't even drink often, maybe once
or twice a month I have one drink - I don't do drugs. I'm not practicing unsafe
behavior. I haven't even had sex in about 4 years anyway. So what exactly is
the problem if I do want to make love to a man I've known for over a year?
The Demon Prince
>I can go broke in a bookstore only a tad faster than I can in a home and
>garden center. As much a part of my center as being kinky is, toy
>stores don't even go into my top 5 list.
>
>Regards,
>
>Avril
> (insert usual tagline here.)
Yeppers! Bookstores, Trader Joe's = Big Trouble! In case you aren't
dead broke, Renaissance Faires will pretty much take care of it . . .
The Demon Prince
FG, *C*AF, XGMC
Lord Yuk Fu of Sarcastica - Master of the Motorcade
95 ACE - "Baby"
97 FLSTS - "Heartbreaker"
Das pearl
>
>It may or may not be. It's not your place to say who does or doesn't
>belong here, especially when there isn't even the weak crutch of
>legality (as if legality had anything to do with ethics, safety,
>logic, or anything really matters)
Legality has nothing to do with it. And, yes, I think I am quite free to say
that someone of 21 who still lives at home and has an unseen Dom and who is
overweight (and most likely unhappily so) and who probably found that (sadly)
bdsm is a way for her to find some seemingly "unconditional" love should MAYBE
join a social group at her college. Or her church or anything else. But No,
Stephen, I do not acknowledge that it is fine and dandy for anyone to seek out
bdsm. You gotta learn the rules before you break them. Even Picasso knew that.
Spyral Fox
In article <199804142233...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, dasp...@aol.com
(Das pearl) writes:
Jami said:
>>I'd get a full time job and move out. But I know myself and know that I could
>>never do what I want or go to college to eventually do what I want and have a
>>job at the same time.
>
>Bullshit. I worked my way through college (with the exception of my first -
>incredible - year which was spent at an international college in London -
>thanks to my MOM!!!) with no loans, no scholarships, no nothing but my wages -
>earned by me. I was on the Dean's List most semesters. I was also NOT living
at
>home. I left my home three months after I graduated from high school (where I
>was a big deal!! :-) by my choice
I expect that there are many others who have similar things to say.
I've been trying to stay out of this but.....
The person who owns the house IMO gets to set rules for behaviour
in that house. And for some things that are not in-house behaviour.
When I moved back in with my parents for a while after my marriage
fell apart (which cost me about $50K + the house), I never even
questioned that I should be home by 10 PM and eat my meals with
them, and do my share of the housework... without even buying any
books. If you don't want to abide by the household rules, you can
leave. It doesn't matter IMO if they are reasonable or not, if they
affect things you do outside the house or not, it's *not* your house
and the people who ensure you have a roof and food IMO get to tell you
off.
Sure, you may have to change your living style. When I first moved
out of their home long before I met my ex, I got to take my twin bed.
I could give you all sorts of gory details about what that first year
was like, while I was taking classes at a Junior College and working
full time, but I'll spare you.
Well, OK, I'll *mostly* spare you.
My whole apartment was smaller than my current bedroom. The kitchen
would have fit into the space of a small half-bath. And I found out,
the hard way, why people don't normally eat grated tuna. No TV, no
stereo, a broken stove, but I could afford it and my bus pass on the
$500 I was taking home each month, with enough left over for textbooks.
But you make your choices. I was happy as a clam in that third-floor
walk up because I could read in the middle of the floor or sleep until
noon, or drip water on the carpets. And I got used to that freedom.
And later, I accumulated stuff (like a couch) which made my home
comfortable and moved into a place that actually had heating and air
conditioning and so on. While going to college. And, eventually,
while going to college, I had a nice place to live, a car that ran, etc.
Moral of the story: I was willing to do without a lot of stuff to ensure
that I got to class on time and understood the material and took
it somewhere toward the future.
The question Jami or anyone else needs to ask themselves is
simple:
Are my costs equal to my benefits?
If they are, you can core dump once in a while, but constant whinging
IMO won't buy you any pals. And, if they are not, IMO you need to do
something about it, instead of complaining.
Maybe it's a cultural thing... I don't argue with my parents, I go to
my mom when I need to buy clothing so she can help pick, or
to my dad for financial advice, and I expect that they will be there
for me in case of any emergency. In exchange, I have dinner with
them once every week or so, take care of their cat & house when
they trravel, and let them tell me how I'm ruining my life. Sounds
fair to me. Personally, I like knowing that my mom cares enough
about what happens to me that she tells me how to live my life.
And, nowadays, I just smile nicely and say things like "Thanks
for the input." Or, "I'll have to think about that."
YMMV, of course, but I'm telling it as I see it.
take care,
- - -Spyral Fox spyr...@aol.com
"What makes you think I'd do as you say? Ani l'dodi."
owner: lordr...@aol.com
San Diego Info & Links: http://members.aol.com/spyralfox/ (updated 2/9)
Munches 3/24, 4/19, 5/26
meara
In article <6h0to1$ps1$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> s...@magenta.com (Steven S. Davis) writes:
>From: s...@magenta.com (Steven S. Davis)
>Subject: Re: ::grumbles:: Stupid checker.... (The Mom Issue)
>Date: 15 Apr 1998 00:07:29 GMT
>And, FWIW, I know some ways to get "Different Loving" (ah, the
>book, that is)
<grin> What if the book isn't what I'm seeking?
Oh, wait, that's alt.personals.bondage, isn't it? So sorry.
meara
C. Konkel
On 14 Apr 1998, Das pearl wrote:
> >
> >I know some of you don't like what I called my mom but that's how I view her.
>
> No, I certainly don't like it. I think I was one of the first to respond to
> your initial post. Now I wish I hadn't.
>
> >I do love her, but she's still sexually repressed (Remember, this is the
> >woman
> >who thinks masterbation
>
> Masturbation.
>
> is only for men and whores - and she's a homophobic
> >as
> >well.)
>
> Big deal.
Some people value their parents opinion and approval, even when they know
they can't have it. just because a journey is hard is no reason to mock
someone who's begun it. If what Jami needs is to feel the strength of her
convictions despite what her parents (mother) thinks of her, then
ridiculing or devaluing any part of that journey for her isn't going to
help. Every person into what it is that we do has a much deeper darker
closet to come out of than most queers. Some of us have to come through
both before we've escaped. Don't belittle the steps.
>
> as well as a few other things. And while I don't mind that she cares
> >about me I would like to see her treat me as the adult she keeps yelling at
> >me
> >that I am
>
> You don't sound like one to me. At all. You sound like a spoiled brat.
>
> . She treats me like an adult in *nothing* - she tells me when to go
> >to school, thinks I should still have a bedtime set by her, when I try to
> >cook
> >even just a grilled cheeze she hangs over my shoulder as if she was afraid
> >I'd
> >burn the house down
>
> cheese. cheese. And yes, spelling does matter.
>
> (Mom, if I can cook an entire Thanksgiving dinner I can
> >make a grilled cheeze!) - She also never listens to reason and never believes
> >me when I tell the truth. If I wasn't so desperate
>
> why, at 21, are you desperate?
Why not? should someone wait till they're thirty or forty or fifty to
become desperate?
>
> to see my dreams come true
> >I'd get a full time job and move out. But I know myself and know that I could
> >never do what I want or go to college to eventually do what I want and have a
> >job at the same time.
>
> Bullshit. I worked my way through college (with the exception of my first -
> incredible - year which was spent at an international college in London -
> thanks to my MOM!!!) with no loans, no scholarships, no nothing but my wages -
What kind of job did you have?!?!?
at forty hours a week, (making, surprise, minimum wage (or might as well
be; $6/hr) I suppose I could afford tuition and rent and bills um, 240 a
week, 960 a month -about 450 for rent ( 1/2 a two bedroom in seattle), 510
a month, 400 of that goes to tuition (in-state 1200 at UW) leaving 110
at least thirty of which is US West phone rates leaving $80 dollars a
month for food and probably heating (15-30 a month). -15 for heating
leaves 65 for food. (since we aren't spoiled and letting mom help by
shopping for us) that's $15 dollars a week. That's easily livable, as
I've survived for months on about 5-10 a week. now, If you get a job that
pays $12/hr, which is SO incredibly common for us students--HA! You can
work 20 hrs/week and maybe attend classes. possibly even study for them.
> earned by me. I was on the Dean's List most semesters. I was also NOT living at
> home. I left my home three months after I graduated from high school (where I
> was a big deal!! :-) by my choice.I went back home a few times for a few months
> each time. But that was it. And you know, I really love and admire my mom. I
> think you need to stop your belly aching.
It osunds like you have a parent(s), that did *very* well raising you to
be a healthy independent person. Not all parents are like that.
>
> I'm *very* easily stressed out and ulcer-prone.
>
> Yawn. Who isn't? If you are complaining NOW at 21 about your life, have I got
> news for you. Yes, Jami, it is annoying when older people say things like that.
stuff ulcers, I've had migrane headaches since I was about 9. Wanna
compare shit? It's still shit. Life is life, it doesn't always get worse
because you've "grown-up" out of that momma's child stage. Personally,
I've learned to deal with stress much more productively since I was a
child, enabling me to manage my headaches. Not to say I don't get them,
but frequently the intesity is reduced. Wow, that got better as I got
older, I think most people, if they can't look on the maturing process by
what good it has brought them, may need to reassess the way they've been
living their lives. (a good friend once told me, "life is not a downward
spiral.")
> But you are setting yourself up for it. I can't help but wonder why you aren't
> out enjoying the things that ONLY people who are 21 can??? You can't go back.
> Ever.
What are the things only someone 21 can enjoy? Why can't they be enjoyed
later, why can't some of them be enjoyed earlier. What do you lose when 21
becomes a point of reminesence?
> >
> >She *is* a bitch even if she does care. With her phony tears and her way of
> >twisting a person's words and throwing them back - and the fact that everyone
> >believes her even if they know better
>
> The kindest thing I can say to you is that you have the pleasure and advantage
> of many years of growth and learning ahead of you. I'll bet that your 'Dom'
> will not seem so wonderful in a few years. As a matter of fact, I bet he won't
> seem so wonderful within six months. Unless he is in your age range, which I
> doubt, he is seeking to take advantage of you. You know this, Jami. It makes me
> sad; but you are an adult as you keep saying. How do you think the rest of us
> became adults????? Same way you are doing!
>
> . Even though I had asked my father for
> >help getting regerstered
>
> registered, Jami. registered. :-(
>
> in college for this semsester right in front of the
> >entire family, she told my brother Paul that I wasn't even trying to go to
> >school and he believed her, even though he knew better.
>
> :-( You have alot of growing up to do. I wish you were not spending your time
> here. This is NOT the place for you.
>
Ouch.
This hurts.
I have done a lot of growing here. I plan to do quite a
bit more. But if this isn't the place Jami, it wasn't the place for me.
Was all the growing I did here a mistake?
CGK--not anywhere near his flamex equipment. ;-(
C. Konkel
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, trishah wrote:
> trishah sits at her computer reading what Das pearl has to say to this
> young woman......
> > Big deal.
> >
> > You don't sound like one to me. At all. You sound like a spoiled brat.
>
> nodding again. And an ungrateful spoiled child, to boot.
> >
um, Why does she sound spoiled?
She sounds like she hasn't spread her wings yet, and I think that at some
point the mamma birdie should be pushing the little baby birdie out of the
nest, not holding it back.
> > . She treats me like an adult in *nothing* - she tells me when to go
> > >to school, thinks I should still have a bedtime set by her, when I try
> to
> > >cook
> > >even just a grilled cheeze she hangs over my shoulder as if she was
> afraid
> > >I'd
> > >burn the house down
> >
> > cheese. cheese. And yes, spelling does matter.
>
> **grin** See?? Spelling matters! And so what if she nags you out the
> door to get to school on time?? And you live in her house....perhaps she
> feels it's her right to set your bedtime, eh?
Why does this arguement hold any water with anyone? It is constatntly
breached by parental authority. If an adult child is a member of an
household, they are a member of that house. Unless no demands are made of
that child (responsibilities that define what the child is producing or
giving to the house, i.e. rent, chores, a grade report), then the parent
needs to ackowledge that child as a housemate. The child cannot be both a
functioning adult in a house and a child needing supervision and
*control*. Neither setting my bedtime or supervising any of my activities
is something I would allow a roommate or housemate to do. The problem is
that the parent does not wish for the child, for whatever reason, to be
recognized as an independent personality, and will not allow any space for
the child.
I've seen it with friends as well as in my own house. It seems pretty
damn pervasive. I can think of people it doesn't happen with, which makes
me believe that that it isn't necessary.
> >
> > (Mom, if I can cook an entire Thanksgiving dinner I can
> > >make a grilled cheeze!) - She also never listens to reason and never
> believes
> > >me when I tell the truth. If I wasn't so desperate
> >
> > why, at 21, are you desperate?
>
> Wait.....she's desperate to achieve her goals and dreams. Not a bad thing
> in a 21 year old.
> >
> > to see my dreams come true
> > >I'd get a full time job and move out. But I know myself and know that I
> could
> > >never do what I want or go to college to eventually do what I want and
> have a
> > >job at the same time.
> >
> > Bullshit. I worked my way through college [...] I think you need to
> stop your belly >aching.
>
> Well, at least she's being realistic about just how much work she's willing
> to put forth to achieve those goals and dreams.... On the other hand, I
> think she should stop her belly aching. **chuckling**
> >
> > I'm *very* easily stressed out and ulcer-prone.
who has ulcers here? Jami? gee, I wonder what's causing them.
> > But you are setting yourself up for it. I can't help but wonder why you
> aren't
> > out enjoying the things that ONLY people who are 21 can??? You can't go
> back.
> > Ever.
> > >
> Read that twice, Jami. Better yet....three times. Read it until you
> understand it.
>
>
> Pick and choose your battles, Jami. Sit down with a pen and paper if it
> will help. Write down what's important to you. Then make notes about the
> problems you'll face concerning those important things. That will not
> include getting along with a mom who really cares about you and is trying
> to help you, I think. I venture that those important battles should be
> the ones you should either be fighting or should be preparing to fight.
> Don't sweat the small stuff, Jami. *smiling*
The devil is in the details...
little details, like the way that negative reinforcement functions. If
she's unhappy she's not going to suddenly *get* happy. She'll grow less
and less interested in dealing with every day *little* things, things like
attending school, interacting with her mother at all. Her relationship
with her mother won't fix itself, I'm guessing it won't fix even if she
proves to herself and her mother and anyone else who matters that she can
achieve her goals on her own without help, but I'm laying odds it's their
best shot.
CGK--pleaze don't spell-check me as well, it's only typos, hell, not
cheeze.
Spyral Fox
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96b.98041...@saul1.u.washington.edu>,
"C. Konkel" <cko...@u.washington.edu> writes:
> If you get a job that
>pays $12/hr, which is SO incredibly common for us students--HA! You can
>work 20 hrs/week and maybe attend classes. possibly even study for them.
Well, theuniversity jobs I have for undergrads have a low-end wage of
about $8.15 per hour. And I have one working for me who makes a
lot more. And the last job *I* had was retail sales in a place with
base + comission, so the abiltiy to earn $10 - 12 / hour was there.
In fact, I know one person who works there now who had a December
pay rate of close to $25 / hour, and rarely dips below $15 -- and
she is NOT a "pushy sales clerk." I have also found that it is quite
possible for me to work 30 hours/week if I budget time carefully and
*still* had time to get all my work done.
take care,
- - -Spyral Fox spyr...@aol.com
"What makes you think I'd do as you say? Ani l'dodi."
owner: lordr...@aol.com
San Diego Info & Links: http://members.aol.com/spyralfox/ (updated 2/9)
Munches 4/19, 5/26, 6/21
Katharine
Dear Lone Stranger,
On Tue, 14 Apr 98 22:47 CDT, kemo...@lrmedia.com (The Lone Stranger)
wrote:
>Used as a sling it turned out to be so exquisitely
>comfortable that I had someone fall sound asleep, fully bound in the
>traditional sling position, while under my tender care. Some might call
>such gentleness a misuse of S&M equipment. But hey, it's my sling, and
>I'll do what I want with it.
Don't forget the other common reaction garnered by the sling: It made
the slingee want to get fucked <g> And yes folks.... this is quite a
sling!!!
--Katharine
Katharine
Dear Spyral
On 15 Apr 1998 14:14:01 GMT, spyr...@aol.com (Spyral Fox) wrote:
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.96b.98041...@saul1.u.washington.edu>,
>"C. Konkel" <cko...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>Well, theuniversity jobs I have for undergrads have a low-end wage of
>about $8.15 per hour. And I have one working for me who makes a
>lot more. And the last job *I* had was retail sales in a place with
>base + comission, so the abiltiy to earn $10 - 12 / hour was there.
>In fact, I know one person who works there now who had a December
>pay rate of close to $25 / hour, and rarely dips below $15 -- and
>she is NOT a "pushy sales clerk." I have also found that it is quite
>possible for me to work 30 hours/week if I budget time carefully and
>*still* had time to get all my work done.
>
I agree. When I finished my undergraduate work, I was self-employed,
working 30-40 hours a week, in school full time, getting straight A's
in a very competitive academic environment, paying my tuition (after
financial aid), and supporting myself financially 100%. That said, I
was also a bit older than the average undergrad student (25 yo) which
made all the difference. I simply didn't have that kind of discipline
or focus when I was 20 years old.
I'm glad I went through that object lesson in college -- 'cause it was
much, much tougher in grad school.
--Katharine
Xiphias Gladius
Lawless <law...@howling.com> writes:
>Xiphias Gladius wrote:
>>And you continue to politely not hear the question until she stops asking.
>>Nobody has the right to ask you that, so you have the obligation to not
>>hear it if someone does ask you.
>Sadly, as Ty has pointed out, choosing to stay with parents -does- more
>or less give them certain "rights". More, I think, then when you're not
>of age, because society and the law says you have to then - it wasn't a
>matter of choice. To a certain extent, you choose to live in their
>house, you choose to abide by their rules and values. Pretending not to
>hear the question isn't exactly the best way to demonstrate the maturity
>a person would want to assert in such a situation.
Pretending not to hear *is* the mature response. Ask Miss Manners.
Or, a story from my tradition:
A woman comes to her rabbi and says, "Rabbi, I have been having an
affair, and I have heard that if one commits adultery, one must get a
divorge. What should I do?"
The rabbi said, "I must research the question. Come back
tomorow."
The woman comes back, and the rabbi said, "I forgot the question."
She repeated the question, and, again, he said he needed to research it.
She came back the next day, and the next, and each time, the rabbi had
forgotten the question. Eventually she got the hint.
Living in close proximty with another adult requires willful
blindness to things that aren't one's concern. That's ettiquite. If
someone, even a parent, breaks these rules, one must respond within the
rules by not acknowledging that the breach occured.
- Ian
Lawless
C. Konkel wrote:
> > **grin** See?? Spelling matters! And so what if she nags you out the
> > door to get to school on time?? And you live in her house....perhaps she
> > feels it's her right to set your bedtime, eh?
> Why does this arguement hold any water with anyone? It is constatntly
> breached by parental authority. If an adult child is a member of an
> household, they are a member of that house. Unless no demands are made of
> that child (responsibilities that define what the child is producing or
> giving to the house, i.e. rent, chores, a grade report), then the parent
> needs to ackowledge that child as a housemate. The child cannot be both a
> functioning adult in a house and a child needing supervision and
> *control*. Neither setting my bedtime or supervising any of my activities
> is something I would allow a roommate or housemate to do. The problem is
> that the parent does not wish for the child, for whatever reason, to be
> recognized as an independent personality, and will not allow any space for
> the child.
Paying rent or whatnot would give grounds to be treated as an adult member
of the household, sure. But in this case, it sounds more a case of free
room, board, and college, as long as she stays home. No, you wouldn't
let a roommate or housemate dictate your bedtime or a curfew - but when
someone's a -guest- it's not unreasonable for the host to not want them
coming and going at three in the morning or whatnot, and that's not, imo,
treating them as a child.
Going back to the rent issue - if I were younger, staying with my parents
and giving them an appropriate amount of rent money, I'd expect to be
treated as a housemate or renter - and if they were making unreasonable
demands and unpleasantness, I'd move out or retaliate, just as I would
with unpleasant roommates or landlords. When you're willing to depend
on another's generosity, it isn't quite so easy.
Avril
<< You gotta learn the rules before you break them. Even Picasso knew
that.>>
Rules of perspective? Technique for using oil paints? Color schema and
hue? That's all technique. It has nothing to do with expression or
whether or not one is an artist. You can be a helluva technician and
have absolutely no imagination, no inner image language with which to
make conversation in the medium or media you choose.
Doesn't translate to BDSM as an analogy, IMO.
If this has to do with something about whether or not the kid
(metaphorically, a lot of people of legal age seem kids to me) who
griped about both a sales clerk and her momma (she was living at home,
right?) in the same seeder, she'll either grow up emotionally or she
won't.
I keep thinking about a Bill Cosby routine in which he reminded himself
that his parents had told him often that they hoped he had children who
acted exactly like he and his brother, Russel, did. <shrug> It got a
laugh from me.
I think her parents will survive her having continued to live with them,
also.
As to whether or not she belongs in SSB, if it's about whether or not
she respects her elders, again it's not my call. If in real life she
gets her proverbial teeth knocked down her proverbial throat a few
times, she'll either get it about both earning and giving respect, or
she'll become a shopping bag person.
I'm not sure what the rules are, because I'm not sure what the
infraction is.
Avril
Arrow Blue
Spyral Fox wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.96b.98041...@saul1.u.washington.edu>,
> "C. Konkel" <cko...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>
> >pays $12/hr, which is SO incredibly common for us students--HA! You can
> >work 20 hrs/week and maybe attend classes. possibly even study for them.
>
> about $8.15 per hour. And I have one working for me who makes a
> lot more. And the last job *I* had was retail sales in a place with
> base + comission, so the abiltiy to earn $10 - 12 / hour was there.
> In fact, I know one person who works there now who had a December
> pay rate of close to $25 / hour, and rarely dips below $15 -- and
> she is NOT a "pushy sales clerk." I have also found that it is quite
> possible for me to work 30 hours/week if I budget time carefully and
> *still* had time to get all my work done.
hmmmm, lucky you. When I was in college there were no jobs. Anything
that was available through the college required one to be related to the
person filling the position to obtain it. I'm not exaggerating. I had to
commute 60 miles away to another state during the summer to work at all
and that paid 16 dollars a day (that was the top pay, I started off at
13). Lucky I had a boyfriend with a car that usually ran.
Not everyone lives in a place where jobs are available. Some places in
the midwest are extremely depressed. Some places on the west coast are
depressed. Maestro spent years trying to get more than a part time
position and is only now working his way out of the incredible load of
debt he worked up living hand to mouth that way. I finally convinced him
to drop some of his ideals and walk away from a profession that he had
spent a lifetime trying to qualify for and then practice.
BTW you still cannot make over 6 dollars an hour at the university where
I went at an undergrad job and you most certainly will not be allowed to
work 30 hours a week.
Arrow
Philip the Foole
>> Katharine: Don't forget the other common reaction garnered by the sling: It made
the slingee want to get fucked <g> And yes folks.... this is quite a
sling!!!
it'll see some more of that *hot*lesbian*sex* (That's enough heavy
breathing, Philip.) when it's at the CLAW[1] party this weekend,
assuming that I can clean off any stray "Y" chromosomes well enough that
they'll let it in the door, that is.
>
> [1] CLAW: Chicago Leather Alliance for Women
> <http://www.mjsleathernet.com/>
Foole: Er, Masked Man, you *did* build in that mini-camera like I
suggested, right?
Steven S. Davis
Das pearl (dasp...@aol.com) wrote:
[In response to me challenging her about telling people who don't
meet her high standards that they don't belong here]
> >It may or may not be. It's not your place to say who does or doesn't
> >belong here, especially when there isn't even the weak crutch of
> >legality (as if legality had anything to do with ethics, safety,
> >logic, or anything really matters)
>
> Legality has nothing to do with it. And, yes, I think I am quite
> free to say
You're free to say all kind of things, however wrong they might be.
> that someone of 21 who still lives at home and has an
> unseen Dom and who is overweight (and most likely unhappily so)
Perhaps she is; perhaps she's not. But nice assumption on your part.
> and who probably found that (sadly)
> bdsm is a way for her to find some seemingly "unconditional" love
This is based on your previous assumption ?
> should MAYBE
You didn't say "maybe". You told her she shouldn't be here, which is
bad enough, and now you've decided it's your place to say who should
and should not do wiitwd.
> join a social group at her college. Or her church or anything else.
If someone needs wiitwd, going off to meet nice vanilla people
instead is very likely to make both the BDSMer and any vanilla
person sie might meet unhappy.
> But No, Stephen, I do not acknowledge that it is fine and dandy for
> anyone to seek out bdsm. You gotta learn the rules before you break
> them. Even Picasso knew that.
What rules are these ? That have to try vanilla rules first and
when vanilla fails you can try wiitwd ? Or you have to know
the rules of wiitwd (which would be quite a requirement as nobody
knows what they are, SSC is as close as we come and we only really
agree on the "C" and can't define that) before you can do wiitwd ?
Since it seems that she's not to be permitted to seek BDSM or to
spend time on SSB until she knows the rules, how is it that she's
to know those rules ?
Since the only way your statement parses even remotely sensibly
is that wiitwd is breaking the rules, and since she must know the
rules first before she can break them (let's just allow that
particular inanity to pass for now), I have to guess that you
mean she must try vanilla first before she tries wiitwd.
Which I find quite ludicrous. I don't need to try vanilla to
know that what I want is something quite different. I don't
want to spend my life with a person who may, for a time, be able
to tolerate my evil thoughts and desires (note: no, I'm not saying
that BDSM is evil, or that BDSMers are evil, simply that there's
a lot of (controlled) evil in me; I couldn't get rid of it if I did
want to, and frankly I don't want to). I want to be with someone who
appreciates and enjoys my evil aspects. And I don't want to be
with someone who can't understand - again, not accept, but understand -
how genuine love and caring (not mere jealousy and greed) can be
expressed through possession and pain.
And anyone who can understand that, and anyone who can appreciate
me in all my depraved glory, she ain't vanilla. Even if she never
did any BDSM and doesn't know any of our rules. It's either
pistachio or nothing for me. If it's to be nothing, and I'm
sufficiently aware of my personal deficiencies and demographic
disadvantages* to know that may well be the case, I can accept
that (and have, many times; then someone makes contact and the
wondering starts again). But I know that vanilla isn't what will
do it for me, and there's no reason for me to misuse my time (and
the time, and emotions, of some nice vanilla women) while I prove
that before I consider BDSM.
* - BTW, yes, I *am* into BDSM in part because no one else could
want me (if she wants *me* she's a perv whether she knows
it or not) - and also in part because no one ever gave me
a choice about whether I wanted to be kinky or not - but
no, I don't expect to find immediate and unconditional
acceptance anyplace, nor do I want such, as what I want
is someone who wants me, not someone who wants whoever
might be available (if that were what I wanted, then
vanilla might be feasible)
As for whether or not it is "fine and dandy for anyone to seek out
bdsm":
1) Of course it is fine for anyone to seek. Whether everyone
should find is another matter. I've wondered for years (even
while doing outreach) whether the Leather Nation wasn't better
off when it was better hidden. The backlash that some had feared
would result from it being to easy to find someone with whom
to do wiitwd and getting hurt hadn't seemed to materialize,
though perhaps the NYC verdict is an example of this. Still,
it seems silly to put up barriers that keep people who need
wiitwd (need it to be happy and fulfilled) away from us, thereby
assuring harm to them, in order to avert some potential harm.
2) As for who should find us, well, I won't presume to dictate
that, though I'll express my own opinion that the difficulties
and hazards of wiitwd are sufficient that if one doesn't need it
(see above definition; this isn't an "I must have it or I'll die
or go mad or become nearsighted with hairy palms" kind of need
(as I pointed out, I can quite easily go without BDSM (and
generally have); hmmm, well, I *am* mad and nearsighted...
<checks palms> nevermind....) but it's still a quite compelling
one), then one shouldn't do it.
What I won't do is judge for someone else whether or not
sie needs wiitwd.
3) Of course, that a person believes that sie needs something
doesn't oblige anyone to provide it
I've always emphasized that before one does wiitwd with anyone
it's important to know why sie wants to do it, and that no matter
what the age of the person (or hir living arrangements; I don't
generally mention that, never having seen the relevance, but
I'll add it for your benefit), if sie doesn't seem sufficiently
self-aware or if hir motivations seem unhealthy - note *unhealthy*,
not "inadequately noble" - then one shouldn't play with them.
Which is judging who one will play with, which is OK, not
presuming to judge who may and may not do wiitwd, which is
not OK.
Fortunately, you don't get to say who can seek out BDSM and who
can't, and no one need listen to you if you opt to be so arrogant
and presumptive
And, BTW, on behalf of overweight people who have been in LDR's...
oh, never mind, you aren't worth an "unfuck you"
***************************************************************************
Steven S. Davis * s...@magenta.com * sdup...@delphi.com * ssd...@ot.com
http://links.magenta.com/lmnop/intro.html (go to Kinky page, Users section)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Safe (the risks are reasonably estimated, and have been reduced
as far as is consistent with achieving the effect sought)
Sane (each participant is sufficiently aware for the activity
being done, and understands (and accepts responsibilty
for) the plausible potential consequences of hir decisions)
Consensual (what happens is what all participants freely agreed to,
and is done pursuant to the wants of all the participants)
*************************************************************************
The Lone Stranger
In article <3534ce53...@news.enteract.com>,
Katharine <kha...@enteract.com> wrote:
:Dear Lone Stranger,
:
:On Tue, 14 Apr 98 22:47 CDT, kemo...@lrmedia.com (The Lone Stranger)
:wrote:
:
:>Used as a sling it turned out to be so exquisitely
:>comfortable that I had someone fall sound asleep, fully bound in the
:>traditional sling position, while under my tender care. Some might call
:>such gentleness a misuse of S&M equipment. But hey, it's my sling, and
:>I'll do what I want with it.
:
:Don't forget the other common reaction garnered by the sling: It made
:the slingee want to get fucked <g> And yes folks.... this is quite a
:sling!!!
You mean there's a sling that _doesn't_ cause that reaction? Perhaps
it'll see some more of that *hot*lesbian*sex* (That's enough heavy
breathing, Philip.) when it's at the CLAW[1] party this weekend,
assuming that I can clean off any stray "Y" chromosomes well enough that
they'll let it in the door, that is.
[1] CLAW: Chicago Leather Alliance for Women
<http://www.mjsleathernet.com/>
-^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^^ -^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^^ - -^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^^ -^^ ^- ^--
C. Konkel
On 15 Apr 1998, Lawless wrote:
> C. Konkel wrote:
> > > **grin** See?? Spelling matters! And so what if she nags you out the
> > > door to get to school on time?? And you live in her house....perhaps she
> > > feels it's her right to set your bedtime, eh?
>
> > Why does this arguement hold any water with anyone? It is constatntly
> > breached by parental authority. If an adult child is a member of an
> > household, they are a member of that house. Unless no demands are made of
> > that child (responsibilities that define what the child is producing or
> > giving to the house, i.e. rent, chores, a grade report), then the parent
> > needs to ackowledge that child as a housemate. The child cannot be both a
> > functioning adult in a house and a child needing supervision and
> > *control*. Neither setting my bedtime or supervising any of my activities
> > is something I would allow a roommate or housemate to do. The problem is
> > that the parent does not wish for the child, for whatever reason, to be
> > recognized as an independent personality, and will not allow any space for
> > the child.
>
> Paying rent or whatnot would give grounds to be treated as an adult member
> of the household, sure. But in this case, it sounds more a case of free
> room, board, and college, as long as she stays home. No, you wouldn't
> let a roommate or housemate dictate your bedtime or a curfew - but when
> someone's a -guest- it's not unreasonable for the host to not want them
> coming and going at three in the morning or whatnot, and that's not, imo,
> treating them as a child.
The problem is that we aren't discussing a guest, we're discussing a
child. That's where the problem is. I guess that I'm not so amazed at the
pervasiveness of that theory, since I would not expect someones parents to
suddenly start treating their child as an adult. But what must be
remembered is that part of the parent-child contract is to prepare their
child for the "adult" world. Eventually this has to be accomplished by
either pushing them into the world, or by helping them into the world.
Many parents choose either, and support their children emotionally if not
financially. Many other parents display what may be called seperation
anxiety, they just don't want their "little babies" to leave. I don't
expect parents to be perfect, but I do feel that they have then failed
their parental obligation. You can't "protect" someoen from the world
forever without doing more harm than good.
<minor rant>
For myself, the choice was quiet a bit of a catch-22, either move out, or
get about two years of college paid-for. Now that's worse of a catch than
it looks, as I was basical forced as a teen to sign over 3,000 dollars in
savings bonds to my parents with a promise that the money would be there
for me when I went to college. (the bonds, had they been alowed to mature
would have been well over 7,000 dollars). However the deal eventually
degraded into free room and board and tuition for two years or until I
left home. So even though tuition could have been paid for were I at home,
when I left home 1/3 through my sophomore year the well suddenly dried.
I've been working and attending school ever since. Through terrible
roommate struggles and monetary difficulties, (for about eight months I
made rent every month by under ten dollars, and took to donating blood to
buy the grocieries the food shelters wouldn't give out.) Meanwhile, my
parents have continued to claim me as a dependent, changing my student aid
status. (not all that shockingly, because you have to be 23 or some such
age before your parental income isn't counted on your application) Finally
this year, I've filed as a "head of household", or as not independent
which is nice. But it was a bit of parental manipulation (not to mention
selfishness) to strangle me financially that caused money that was there
to dissapear. I was much happier starving and struggling then I ever was
at home.
</rant>
Obviously I have my own, fairly immediate, stake in this arguement. But I
don't feel that my arguement hinges on that stake, in other words, my
feelings on the matter immediate, but that gives me a better veiw of the
internal dynamics.
CGK
C. Konkel
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Arrow Blue wrote:
> Spyral Fox wrote:
> >
> > In article <Pine.OSF.3.96b.98041...@saul1.u.washington.edu>,
> > "C. Konkel" <cko...@u.washington.edu> writes:
> >
> > > If you get a job that
> > >pays $12/hr, which is SO incredibly common for us students--HA! You can
> > >work 20 hrs/week and maybe attend classes. possibly even study for them.
> >
> > Well, theuniversity jobs I have for undergrads have a low-end wage of
> > about $8.15 per hour. And I have one working for me who makes a
> > lot more. And the last job *I* had was retail sales in a place with
> > base + comission, so the abiltiy to earn $10 - 12 / hour was there.
> > In fact, I know one person who works there now who had a December
> > pay rate of close to $25 / hour, and rarely dips below $15 -- and
> > she is NOT a "pushy sales clerk." I have also found that it is quite
> > possible for me to work 30 hours/week if I budget time carefully and
> > *still* had time to get all my work done.
>
> BTW you still cannot make over 6 dollars an hour at the university where
> I went at an undergrad job and you most certainly will not be allowed to
> work 30 hours a week.
The vast majority (all?) of the jobs at my University, around my
university, and using students from any university will not hire students
for more than 19.5 hours a week, as most do not want to offer health
insurance. Many more good paying jobs won't hire around school hours. I
realize that as a lberal arts student I have to grounds to complain, as
only those pursuing "professional" careers should be offered good jobs
that require anything more than menial labor. (sorry minor rant)
What's the price of housing where you live Spyral, I assume perhaps higher
than Seattle, even though Seattle has been raising prices fairly steadily
for years.
And, in all honesty, as a 22 year-old, I don't have all the maturity it
takes to balance all of these things, I certainly didn't have it as a 19
yo when I moved out. I managed to "survive". I just don't want to
perpetrate an attitude of "well I did it and I did it well, so quit your
whining." around here.
CGK
aka...@netcom.com
In article <199804150150...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
You are an adult and can make your own decisions -- but a lot of us have
been there (I'm on the other side of the dom/sub fence but it doesn't
really matter) and can only say to think long and hard before you do
anything.
Sex complicates things.
I have not been able to read all of your posts, Jami, but I have received
some indiciations that you might be wired a lot like I was when I was in
my pre-actual experimentation phases. In that it's not about nasty,
dirty, kinky sex (while there is nothing wrong with that), it's not about
ass fucking, dildos, and "on your knees, bitch!" (although that's quite
fun too). It's about sensuality, erotic helplessness, and how *sexy*
domination can be.
It's why you don't find anything of interest, if I can remember from your
other post, about HOT PORN! Why pictures of helpless women naked with
their clits tortured doesn't do anything for you (again, I'm speculating).
When I started experimenting with SM, I did it non sexually for quite a
few years. Because I wasn't ready to start having sex regularly, and
because, frankly, the idea of bondage/pain + sex wasn't the appeal -- it
was the excitement of making another person helpless.
Early sexual experiences mold what we think about sex. If I had tried to
mix SM (a very big emotional rollercoaster in itself) with sex (mind
blowing from a sensation level), who knows what could have gone wrong.
If my first SM experiences were with a much more experienced sub who
brought plugs and clamps and floggers and laid it all out and said "go at
it", I don't know that I would have enjoyed it. I fell in serious lust
with the idea of prisoners, bondage, helplessness, gags, blindfolds. I
merged it into my sexuality at my own pace. It made them mesh together
wonderfully, but still have the same appeal separate.
I don't think anyone here is trying to lecture you. People just don't
want you to make mistakes they did -- or mistakes they know they could
have made. Your mother worried about you having sex is a typical mother
response. But don't take it an emotional level, take it as logically as
you can. Make your own choices, but understand that everything will have
a bigger impact on your future. Decisions have after effects
I don't want to sound like your mother either, but I say don't have sex
too. And I say that only because there is no rush, and you will be
dealing with a lot of things. Adding sex into the mix will just make it
potentially harder. You have plenty of time. Learn the flavors of
sensuality one at a time, with both SM and sex, and you will probably
have a lot less stress over it.
As a side note, I do believe I live local to you -- so if you ever do
want to meet some BDSM type people in the flesh to just hang out, you're
more than welcome to come hang out with us sometime.
Hang in there!
Akasha
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The slave thinks he is freed from bondage --- aka...@netcom.com
Only to find a stronger set of chains --- Tania on #femdom
Please note new Web Address !! ---------------> http://www.akashaweb.com
__________________________________________________________________________
Avril
> What's the price of housing where you live Spyral, I assume perhaps higher
> than Seattle, even though Seattle has been raising prices fairly steadily
> for years.
There is such a shortage of housing in Seattle, proper (and if you go to
school there, living in the suburbs is insane, due to commute insanity,
parking insanity, adding three times your class time to your school day,
eliminating sleep time if you're working and going to school), that
landlords of even dumps will be able to make fat across the board rent
increases this Spring. It's the worst it's been in over a decade.
In outlying towns that feed into it, it's not much better.
Avril
(not living IN Seattle)
Joy Hilbert
Firstly I'd like to say that I am distinguishing in this post between
Jami's obligation to tolerate her mother in order to maintain her living
standard; and Jami's obligation to "love" her mother.
Obviously, Jami has to put up with whatever shit her mother throws at
her if she wants to continue to live there.
The rest of the post is about Jami's obligation to "love" her mother.
Das pearl writes
Jami wrote:
>>I know some of you don't like what I called my mom but that's how I view her.
>
>No, I certainly don't like it. I think I was one of the first to respond to
>your initial post. Now I wish I hadn't.
Nevertheless, you go ahead and do it again.
>
> is only for men and whores - and she's a homophobic
>>as
>>well.)
>
>Big deal.
Yes, it is a big deal. If you don't tolerate bigotry from your friends,
why should you have to tolerate it from your relatives?
>
> as well as a few other things. And while I don't mind that she cares
>>about me I would like to see her treat me as the adult she keeps yelling at
>>me
>>that I am
>
>You don't sound like one to me. At all. You sound like a spoiled brat.
Because she's complaining about being badly treated, she sounds like a
spoiled brat?
>
> (Mom, if I can cook an entire Thanksgiving dinner I can
>>make a grilled cheeze!) - She also never listens to reason and never believes
>>me when I tell the truth. If I wasn't so desperate
>
>why, at 21, are you desperate?
She explains, below.
>
> to see my dreams come true
>>I'd get a full time job and move out. But I know myself and know that I could
>>never do what I want or go to college to eventually do what I want and have a
>>job at the same time.
>
<rant about das pearl's college experiences snipped. Spelling flames
are also snipped>
> I'm *very* easily stressed out and ulcer-prone.
>
>Yawn. Who isn't?
I see it as a sign of maturity to know your limitations.
>If you are complaining NOW at 21 about your life, have I got
>news for you. Yes, Jami, it is annoying when older people say things like that.
>But you are setting yourself up for it. I can't help but wonder why you aren't
>out enjoying the things that ONLY people who are 21 can???
Because her mother won't let her?
>You can't go back.
>Ever.
And your point is?
>>
>>She *is* a bitch even if she does care. With her phony tears and her way of
>>twisting a person's words and throwing them back - and the fact that everyone
>>believes her even if they know better
>
>The kindest thing I can say to you is that you have the pleasure and advantage
>of many years of growth and learning ahead of you. I'll bet that your 'Dom'
>will not seem so wonderful in a few years.
Oh, what a prediction. Most relationships end; relationships involving
younger folk are more likely to end. What does this prove except that
Jami is quite young, which we already knew?
>As a matter of fact, I bet he won't
>seem so wonderful within six months. Unless he is in your age range, which I
>doubt, he is seeking to take advantage of you.
"Taking advantage". In what way? I thought they were doing something
they both wanted to do?
>You know this, Jami. It makes me
>sad; but you are an adult as you keep saying. How do you think the rest of us
>became adults????? Same way you are doing!
We did?
>
>in college for this semsester right in front of the
>>entire family, she told my brother Paul that I wasn't even trying to go to
>>school and he believed her, even though he knew better.
>
>:-( You have alot of growing up to do. I wish you were not spending your time
>here. This is NOT the place for you.
I note you didn't answer her point about the extent to which her mother
has the rest of the family unable to think for themselves. My mother is
like that, too.
Why don't you feel she should be allowed to read/post here?
--
Joy Hilbert
Joy Hilbert
Das pearl writes
>Legality has nothing to do with it. And, yes, I think I am quite free to say
>bdsm is a way for her to find some seemingly "unconditional" love should MAYBE
>join a social group at her college.
Letting all your hangups hang out, I see.
>Or her church or anything else. But No,
>Stephen, I do not acknowledge that it is fine and dandy for anyone to seek out
>bdsm. You gotta learn the rules before you break them. Even Picasso knew that.
What rules are these, exactly?
Didn't know Picasso was a pervert...
--
Joy Hilbert
Avril
Joy Hilbert wrote:
>
>
> Didn't know Picasso was a pervert...
> --
He did some hilariously deliciously erotic plates and pottery...
he was pretty bossy.<G>
I would have cast a vote for S. Dali first, though, just based on a few
interviews he gave.
Avril
-k
>Didn't know Picasso was a pervert...
>--
>Joy Hilbert
Actually, i saw that movie based on Picasso's life and he was pretty far on
the deviant side. He controlled and manipulated women in a manner that comes
close to abusive, but they kept coming back. A pretty good flick actually.
-k
Jul...@hotmail.com
In article <akashaEr...@netcom.com>,
aka...@netcom.com wrote:
> Sex complicates things.
>
> I have not been able to read all of your posts, Jami, but I have received
> some indiciations that you might be wired a lot like I was when I was in
> my pre-actual experimentation phases. In that it's not about nasty,
> dirty, kinky sex (while there is nothing wrong with that), it's not about
> ass fucking, dildos, and "on your knees, bitch!" (although that's quite
> fun too). It's about sensuality, erotic helplessness, and how *sexy*
> domination can be.
[snip]
> Early sexual experiences mold what we think about sex. If I had tried to
> mix SM (a very big emotional rollercoaster in itself) with sex (mind
> blowing from a sensation level), who knows what could have gone wrong.
Sex does complicate things, and if you're not already pretty darn comfortable
with sex and with BDSM then mixing them can indeed be bad. However, knowing
when to mix and when not to mix is so highly individual that it's hard to say,
"Oh, you're not ready."
> I don't think anyone here is trying to lecture you. People just don't
> want you to make mistakes they did -- or mistakes they know they could
> have made.
I think it's wonderful when people say, "be careful, when I did XYZ in a
similar situation things went all to hell." However, if the person they're
advising thinks about what they've said and decides that it isn't applicable
to their situation, that should be/is OK too.
> I don't want to sound like your mother either, but I say don't have sex
> too. And I say that only because there is no rush, and you will be
> dealing with a lot of things. Adding sex into the mix will just make it
> potentially harder.
It may make it harder, it may make it easier, it may be fairly neutral. I
think it's really hard to say what will definitely cause problems for someone.
My first experiences with sex were rapidly followed by my first experiences
with RL BDSM, and nothing bad happened as a result. However, I'm an atypical
person when it comes to sexual activities (I've almost never experienced
guilt or self-loathing over sex, BDSM, or my sexuality). So, my experience is
not widely applicable.
But yeah, you give good advice.
Julia
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Spyral Fox
In article <ian.89...@dillinger.io.com>, i...@dillinger.io.com (Xiphias
Gladius) writes:
>
>Pretending not to hear *is* the mature response. Ask Miss Manners.
[...]
> Living in close proximty with another adult requires willful
>blindness to things that aren't one's concern. That's ettiquite. If
>someone, even a parent, breaks these rules, one must respond within the
>rules by not acknowledging that the breach occured.
Much depends on phrasing, and proximity. Saying "What, I'm sorry,
I didn't catch that" to a person who you meet in an elevator is one
thing, saying it to people you live with on a regular, repeated basis
could be a form of passive-aggressive behaviour. In fact, repeating
the "I can't hear you" several times strikes me as an immature
response, and brings to mind images of a small child with hir fingers
in hir ears, saying "I can't hear you!"
I find it much better with people I spend much time with in close
proximity to look like I'm listening, and make some sort of answer
which sounds cheerful and agreeable and totally fails to include any
hint that I'll actually take the advice.
YMMV, of course.
Spyral Fox
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96b.98041...@saul1.u.washington.edu>,
"C. Konkel" <cko...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>What's the price of housing where you live Spyral, I assume perhaps higher
>than Seattle, even though Seattle has been raising prices fairly steadily
>for years.
It depends on where you chose to live. Isn't that pretty much
the case in any urban area?
I can see rooms offered for as little as $80 / month in the newspaper
and on campus, generally for not-so-nice places, or you can pay
$2,500 / month and rent a very nice house in La Jolla.
My point isn't that you need to earn a certain amount of money
per month for a decent standard of living, my point is that a student
who is serious about becoming educated can make a surprising
number of sacrifices for things that may have seemed essential
when you are living with your parents.
If the parents are down on someone for BDSMy or other stuff,
and giving you a hard time, you always have an alternative. The
only question is whether you chose to move out, or to put up
with the parents.
C. Konkel
On 17 Apr 1998, Spyral Fox wrote:
> In article <ian.89...@dillinger.io.com>, i...@dillinger.io.com (Xiphias
> Gladius) writes:
>
> >
> >Pretending not to hear *is* the mature response. Ask Miss Manners.
> [...]
> > Living in close proximty with another adult requires willful
> >blindness to things that aren't one's concern. That's ettiquite. If
> >someone, even a parent, breaks these rules, one must respond within the
> >rules by not acknowledging that the breach occured.
>
> Much depends on phrasing, and proximity. Saying "What, I'm sorry,
> I didn't catch that" to a person who you meet in an elevator is one
> thing, saying it to people you live with on a regular, repeated basis
> could be a form of passive-aggressive behaviour. In fact, repeating
> the "I can't hear you" several times strikes me as an immature
> response, and brings to mind images of a small child with hir fingers
> in hir ears, saying "I can't hear you!"
>
> I find it much better with people I spend much time with in close
> proximity to look like I'm listening, and make some sort of answer
> which sounds cheerful and agreeable and totally fails to include any
> hint that I'll actually take the advice.
Very true. By doing this, you manage to listen, take in their advice, and
let them know that they have the respect from you to have their position
listened to even if you both know that you're not going to follow their
advice. This works best because if it's truly meant in the "helpful"
department, you don't want to insult them by not listening, but you don't
really want to bother stopping whatever other track your mind is on, like
how that person who lives in the house next door would look suspended from
your basement crossbeam and if you should ask your landlords permission
before you install eyebolts. [1]
[1] what I was usually thinking about in my last house when my roomates
would come by and try to tell me about something going on in their lives,
or their latest revelation.
CGK
The Lone Stranger
In article <35359C...@ix.netcom.com>,
Philip the Foole <p...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
:
:Foole: Er, Masked Man, you *did* build in that mini-camera like I
:suggested, right?
Sir! The mere suggestion that I would do such a thing is an affront to
my professional reputation.
'Sides, if they found out about it they might erase the strips of video
tape that are sewn into the webbing.
-^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^^ -^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^^ - -^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^- ^-- -^^ ^^ -^^ ^- ^--
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Arrow Blue
> My point isn't that you need to earn a certain amount of money
> per month for a decent standard of living, my point is that a student
> who is serious about becoming educated can make a surprising
> number of sacrifices for things that may have seemed essential
> when you are living with your parents.
>
> If the parents are down on someone for BDSMy or other stuff,
> and giving you a hard time, you always have an alternative. The
> only question is whether you chose to move out, or to put up
> with the parents.
> take care,
Which wasn't her point at all. She had made that decision and decided
that for the time being she would prefer to live with her parents. The
point is whether she is a spoiled brat for venting and calling her
mother a bitch for being judgemental, and whether she is into BDSM
because she thinks she can get more attention that way.
Personally I saw nothing in any of her posts to indicate she is a brat
or is not sincere about her desires for BDSM. I think Das Perl was
totally out of line to tell her to get off the newsgroup. I think that
21 year olds have the same right a 40 year old has to not think their
parents are always right or always act responsibly or reasonably. She
may change her mind later as she matures, and she has that right too.
Arrow
(my own mother never pulled any of that crap on me when I lived with my
parents, and I have always admired her for the mature way she has
handled all her relationships)
Dryada
On 14 Apr 1998 04:25:54 GMT, cdev...@aol.com (CDeVillon) wrote:
>>A mom concerned about her child:
>>
>>a mom concerned about her child.
>>
>>
>>The end.
>>
>>p.s. I hate hearing anyone call their mom a bitch in a public forum. :-(
>
>Sorry, but it's true. I'm 21 and even if I do live at home (because the deal is
>as long as I live with them they'll pay for college) it's none of her buisness
>who I have sex with as long as I'm not doing it in the house, in their bed, and
>not doing drugs or practicing unsafe behavior - IE: No condoms, sex with
>strangers....
>
>~Jami -
Um, as the mother of a 19 year old (boy) I dearly hope that he DOES
consider it my business whenever he gets around to it, not details of
course, but asking advice et al. Currently he does ask me about stuff
about relating to women. Women actually *like* him. I hope I have
something to do with that.
But back to your situation, as long as you live at home they will be
nosy. I do find your mother's attitude as expressed here a little bit
either over-the-top or overconcerned. Do you have a history that
would make her more likely to be paranoid? Anyway, her way of
communicating her concern doesn't sound like the best way to
get her point across, whatever it is.
But the real reason I responded is that you said "No Condoms", and
I am hoping that was a mistake, because good motherly advice
would tell you to DO use condoms. Me and the older young one
went around a few times about how they were not toys to inflate, and
they belonged in the trash when "used" for whatever purpose, but I
believe they should always be made available to one's teenaged
(and thereabouts) offspring. I hope that makes it less likely I will
hear about "mistakes" or diseases that happened because
someone was too embarrassed to try and purchase them.
See, there are mothers everywhere, concerned about you...
Love, and Balance,
Dryada
*************************************************************************
dry...@doitnow.com @}->-- Love is the Law, Love under Will
....You can do what you want....
...You will get what you create....
@}->-@}->-@}->-@}->-
@}->-@}->-@}->-@}->-
Katharine
On Thu, 16 Apr 98 00:18 CDT, kemo...@lrmedia.com (The Lone Stranger)
wrote:
>You mean there's a sling that _doesn't_ cause that reaction? Perhaps
>it'll see some more of that *hot*lesbian*sex* (That's enough heavy
>breathing, Philip.) when it's at the CLAW[1] party this weekend,
>assuming that I can clean off any stray "Y" chromosomes well enough that
>they'll let it in the door, that is.
Actually, I've seen people in slings that are uncomfy because the
slingee spends so much energy holding her head up to make sure she is
getting fucked properly. Your sling, OTOH, allows the slingee to
recline her head daintily back and enjoy her rapture as a lady should.
Glad it'll be at CLAW this weekend <g>
--Katharine
Spyral Fox
In article <3537F180...@ix.netcom.com>, Arrow Blue
<Arro...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> My point isn't that you need to earn a certain amount of money
>> per month for a decent standard of living, my point is that a student
>> who is serious about becoming educated can make a surprising
>> number of sacrifices for things that may have seemed essential
>> when you are living with your parents.
>>
>> If the parents are down on someone for BDSMy or other stuff,
>> and giving you a hard time, you always have an alternative. The
>> only question is whether you chose to move out, or to put up
>> with the parents.
>> take care,
>
>Which wasn't her point at all. She had made that decision and decided
>that for the time being she would prefer to live with her parents. The
>point is whether she is a spoiled brat for venting and calling her
>mother a bitch for being judgemental, and whether she is into BDSM
>because she thinks she can get more attention that way.
Well, let me try again to make *my* point clearer. My point
is that if you're going to vent once in a great while, IMO that's
normal & natural... but that if you start to feel the need to
vent frequently, and core dump on a regular basis, you will
lose *my& sympathy, because one can always change the
curcumstances; you can't affect anyone's behaviour but your
own, and you *can* move.
Otherwise, we're in a position of "shit, or get off the pot."
AFAIK, Jami has only core-dumped once, on this one
issue, and made, as you said, the point to stay at home.
So, I don't have any problem with her behaviour.
However, it is a *choice* she made -- she wasn't forced
by the fact that there are no other alternatives, and every
choice made to accept an option means that some other
options are, at least for the moment, put on hold. Her choice
to stay with her family entails also the condition of knowing
that she will be ragged on about sexuality; if it gets to the
point where she can't stand it any more, she can at that time
choose again, and move out.
Valkyrie
In article <3538418f....@nntp.enteract.com>, (Katharine) wrote:
>> getting fucked properly. Your sling, OTOH, allows the slingee to
>> recline her head daintily back and enjoy her rapture as a lady should.
>>
Umm..Katharine..perhaps my memory of you, the sling and the Mad Nun is
just a figment of my admittedly warped imagination, but if that's
'dainty', my dictionary needs some correction :)
Val..who had a wonderful time at Katharines..thanks Kat :)
--
"What makes a woman happy, Jane?"
"Wearing a pair of thong underwear backwards Dharma"
nightwind
Spectrum <spec...@magenta.com> wrote in article
<6gvpub$43p$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>...
> In article <199804140146...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> >I went to see City Of Angels today (awesome movie even if there's
> >no BDSM. <g>)
>
> No BDSM?
> The movie is about the ultimate control of subs: direct mind
> control of all aspects of reality, with a city of humans as subs.
>
> There's a rotating bondage wheel (Hey, LS, you been contracting to
> the movies?<G>), a rolling one-person bondage cage, needle-play,
> the whole plot is a mind-fuck, and there's probably lots of other
> stuff I missed. Great "Metropolis"-like sets too.
Um, I think your getting Two movies mixed up. Isn't the movie you're
describing "Dark City"?
"City of Angels" is the new Meg Ryan/Nicholas Cage movie about an angel
falling in love with a mortal.
--
"Chips, dips, chains, whips, I'm not talking candlewax on the nipples
or witchcraft or anything. . . . .."
-weird science
Nightwind
(defective ant)
Roger
On 15 Apr 1998 01:50:25 GMT, cdev...@aol.com (CDeVillon) wrote:
>Some of you might view me as a brat - but I don't care. You don't live here so
>you don't know what it's like.
>
>I spent my free time working for the city cleaning up human shit out of public
>restrooms to play back the money I owe my parents. My three older brothers have
>*never once* tried to pay back the money they owe.
Jami,
I'm not calling you a brat in any way, but I *do* want to
bring your attention to what you just said.
Basically, "I'm not a brat. My *brother's* a brat."
The point I'd like to impress upon you is that your brothers
aren't the issue. The crap they get by with isn't either. They may
have been an issue when you were a kid, but you're not a kid any
longer, and if you want your Mom to let go of her baggage, you're
gonna hafta drop your emotional Samsonite first.
React to her on the basis of how she treats *you*, not
everyone else. Don't defend your desires or dreams based upon what
other people have been allowed to pursue.
I'm not *that* much older than you, and I hated my father for
years. I thought he was the biggest asshole in the world... and to a
large degree, he was. He gave my brother everything, and begrudged me
the time of day.
But when I finally grew up enough to quit caring what he did
for other people and clarified in my mind precisely how I felt about
how he'd treated me and me alone... that was really the first time I
was able to address him as an adult. I cut out the middleman in our
relationship... I quit *allowing* my brother to be a factor. I sorted
out what I could forgive, and I gave him an opportunity to apologize
in his own way.
And now I have a whole new relationship with this guy I barely
knew. You might be able to have something similar with your Mom. Just
don't sell yourself short and waste a lotta years with bitterness...
'cause you can't ever get 'em back.
--Roger
Thomas G. Digby
Spectrum (spec...@magenta.com) wrote:
: In article <199804140146...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
: Jami <cdev...@aol.com> wrote:
: >I just feel the need to vent - hope you all don't mind.
: >
: >I went to see City Of Angels today (awesome movie even if there's
: >no BDSM. <g>)
: No BDSM?
: The movie is about the ultimate control of subs: direct mind
: control of all aspects of reality, with a city of humans as subs.
: There's a rotating bondage wheel (Hey, LS, you been contracting to
: the movies?<G>), a rolling one-person bondage cage, needle-play,
: the whole plot is a mind-fuck, and there's probably lots of other
: stuff I missed. Great "Metropolis"-like sets too.
[chop]
Sounds more like "Dark City" than "City of Angels". Are you sure you
don't have the titles mixed up?
----
-- Tom Digby
http://www.well.com/user/bubbles/
trishah
Spectrum
In article <01bd6b17$68ae11a0$7ac5accf@default>,
nightwind <nigh...@erols.com> wrote:
>Spectrum <spec...@magenta.com> wrote in article
><6gvpub$43p$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>...
>> In article <199804140146...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>
>> >no BDSM. <g>)
>>
>> No BDSM?
>> The movie is about the ultimate control of subs: direct mind
>> control of all aspects of reality, with a city of humans as subs.
>>
>> There's a rotating bondage wheel (Hey, LS, you been contracting to
>> the movies?<G>), a rolling one-person bondage cage, needle-play,
>> the whole plot is a mind-fuck, and there's probably lots of other
>> stuff I missed. Great "Metropolis"-like sets too.
>
>
>describing "Dark City"?
Whoops. My bad. Mea culpa. Engage mind before posting. Only trained stunt
perverts need apply.
or maybe I can blame it on residual IRS mind control, from the 15th?
"Nevermind."
-^-^spectrum-^^- spec...@magenta.com Cupcake #697
Tales of the ASBWorld: http://magenta.com/lmnop/users/spectrum/index.html
The description of Pervhome and the Guestbook are there also.
"Entropy requires no maintenance."