Thinking of using a hooker to get sexual experienc/
hoel...@gold.tc.umn.edu
I'm 38 yr old male, still a virgin and am pretty much entering the
dating scene. I feel extremely insecure of my situation and feel
extreme tension about the whole process leading up to having sex in an
intimate relationship. I also am extremely horny and don't know if I
can last much longer. II'm thinking of flying out to Nevada and using
a hooker to try and at least get over an initial wall of anxiety. It's
legal in some parts of that state and also regulated in terms of
requiring regular health exams for the women. There's got to be many
other guys who've been in this situation. I'd just like to hear some
thought about this.
Thanks for any feedback.
Steve
Hoelx005,
If you truly have never had a sexual experience at your age, I would
definitely do 'something', even if it's something legal and safe like what
you're suggesting (i'll probably get flamed on that suggestion).. but!..
when you get back home, convert all those negative feelings of frustration
(sexual and otherwise), insecurity and loneliness, into a positive drive
equal in power to all the the negatives.
This 'drive' is to be used in one way: SELF-IMPROVEMENT-- GETTING YOUR
SHIT TOGETHER MENTALLY, PHYSICALLY, and SOCIALLY... (1)work out if you're
lacking in that area, (2)join hiking, religious, cooking, whatever, clubs
to boost social skills, (3) maybe even therapy to find out why you've kept
your guard up all these years, and to find out why you haven't been able to
achieve the goals and sub-goals necessary to be the quality of man who
attracts women. During this time of growth, don't worry about women/love
relationships, just make progress in the areas you need to progress in.. I
don't know you, but you know yourself and what areas need work.
. I've probably injected my own assumptions about you in some areas in
this posting which aren't true - but, I'm just trying to point you to the
correct solution.
hoel...@gold.tc.umn.edu wrote in article <6857g8$g...@epx.cis.umn.edu>...
Amrika
Let us know how it goes in LV, but youre 38 and dont think you can last much
longer??? Good grief, what happened the past 20 years?? Got stuck on an
island somewhere? That doesnt matter really, as much as I hate to say it,
that's probably your best bet unless any of the women on here want to
volunteer.
--
-Qui peccat ebrius luat sobrius
-to send email remove *nospam* from address
hoel...@gold.tc.umn.edu wrote in message <6857g8$g...@epx.cis.umn.edu>...
:
Daniel Kravetz
On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, hoel...@gold.tc.umn.edu wrote:
> I'm 38 yr old male, still a virgin and am pretty much entering the
> dating scene. I feel extremely insecure of my situation and feel
> extreme tension about the whole process leading up to having sex in an
> intimate relationship. I also am extremely horny and don't know if I
> can last much longer. II'm thinking of flying out to Nevada and using
> a hooker to try and at least get over an initial wall of anxiety. It's
> legal in some parts of that state and also regulated in terms of
> requiring regular health exams for the women. There's got to be many
> other guys who've been in this situation. I'd just like to hear some
> thought about this.
>
What do you mean by "last much longer"? Being horny isn't a terminal
illness. There is no excuse for living with extreme physical sexual
tension. You were created with two hands; use them. All other anxieties
connected with dating can be dealt with by making friends with kind,
considerate women, which makes more sense than going to a prostitute.
Leanne R Campbell
On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Daniel Kravetz wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, hoel...@gold.tc.umn.edu wrote:
>
> > I'm 38 yr old male, still a virgin and am pretty much entering the
> > dating scene. I feel extremely insecure of my situation and feel
> > extreme tension about the whole process leading up to having sex in an
> > intimate relationship. I also am extremely horny and don't know if I
> > can last much longer. II'm thinking of flying out to Nevada and using
> > a hooker
[clipped totally logical reasons for hiring a hooker]
> What do you mean by "last much longer"? Being horny isn't a terminal
> illness. There is no excuse for living with extreme physical sexual
> tension. You were created with two hands; use them. All other anxieties
> connected with dating can be dealt with by making friends with kind,
> considerate women, which makes more sense than going to a prostitute.
38 years old and "entering" the dating scene?!? Where've you been, at a
seminary? Don't answer that. Oh sure, being horny isn't a *terminal*
disease but it sure can be debilitating. Ain't that right, Daniel?
(what you said was pretty funny, by the way)
Watchout, hoelx! If you retain a hooker, you might find yourself even
more apprehensive than before. It's liable to put you in a coma after
being out of the game for so long. It's not the pure act of sex itself
which relieves fears. It goes deeper than that. Daniel is right; you
need to get acquainted with the considerate kinda women. Get your feet
wet first, not your dick.
-Leanne
Jazz'o
Go for it man ... but don't forget to carry a bag full of <<RELIABLE >>
condoms
hoel...@gold.tc.umn.edu wrote in message <6857g8$g...@epx.cis.umn.edu>...
Sherry Bailey
How brave of you to ask about it in THIS newsgroup. (Smart ass capital of
the world.)
(I was a virgin (yes, by choice) until I was 31, but I am a female with
different stresses than yours... Still, you aren't the only one to put it off
however it came about. So while in a minority, there are others who have been
celibate as long or longer, a fact to keep in mind.)
Personally, if YOU like the idea, I don't see any problem with a
prostitute. (As long as you are sensible about the health risks, of course.)
You are obviously in a situation where the love/romance aspects of
best-quality sex aren't the overriding concern, so expediency and guaranteed
success have definite appeal, I would imagine.
Whether or not you do this, however, I would agree with a previous poster who
suggested that you try to address whatever you think has so far prevented you
from having had experience up til now. It may be shyness, a preoccupation with
your career over everything else, changing your mind about the seminary or
leaving the priesthood (or jail!), or simply being unattractive to women or
unlucky in your choices, among the millions of possibilities. If there is a
way to overcome whatever obstacles you see, now is the time to try to do
that. Because in the end, the love/romance kind of sex IS best, (at least most
people *I* know think so, and a lot of guys who claim they don't, FAKE it to
get what they do want), so finding a partner with whom you can share THAT
is optimal (IMHO).
Good luck.
Sherry
Amrika
Sherry Bailey wrote in message <690v6r$pee$1...@news1.bu.edu>...
:(I was a virgin (yes, by choice) until I was 31,
Sherry,
How honest of you! I feel like I know you better than many of my friends
already. Ive never done the hooker thing, nowadays, Id be frightened to
death b/c for everyone's info. AIDS virus is smaller than the pores in a
condom, know what that means? Right! But, I have never been to a strip
bar, either, so now that Im freshly single again, Im getting a friend to go
w/ me, he's married but been to many, we'll see how Okies stack up.
Amrika, venturing out for virgin strip trip
Jim Dutton
In article <34b59...@wznews.webzone.net>,
This reminds me of when Homer gave Barney his first beer in college.
-Jeem, make sure you bring money for a stop at the convenient store on the
way home.
========================================================================
http://www.mcs.net/~jjd
Steatopygias's 'R' Us. doh#0000000005 That ain't no Hottentot.
Sesquipedalian's 'R' Us. ZX-10. DoD#564. tbtw#6. s.s.m#8. There ain't no more
If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is,
"God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell
him is, "Probably because of something you did." - Jack Handey
========================================================================
Joseph Dunphy
Sherry Bailey (slba...@bu.edu), in a bust of thoughtlessness or passive
aggression, wrote:
: (I was a virgin (yes, by choice) until I was 31, but I am a female with
making her something of a hypocrite, in that she is supporting
an institution which, by its existence, deprives many young women
of a freedom which she made use of, herself. But we'll get to that.
By the way, I seem to remember that you were quite the man basher,
back on rec.org.mensa, about 2 years ago. And now you care about
this man's frustration, so deeply. Pardon me if I offer the
skeptical thought, that you might not have his best interests at
heart, as you give this advice.
: Personally, if YOU like the idea, I don't see any problem with a
: prostitute.
Then, maybe you ought to think it over, a little more.....
Though I suspect that what we are seeing out of you, is callousness,
trying to pass itself off as openmindedness. Pretty much what this
decade has been about in general, but this is such a classic
example, as to cry out for recognition.
Yes, I did read what you wrote following this. But it didn't undo
the act, of portraying this option in a more positive light than it
merits. There's plenty wrong with this choice.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He asks for the group's opinion, about whether or not her should go to a
prostitute, in order to gain sexual experience. Given the strain he must
be experiencing, I can easily understand why he's ask that. But I'd say
that this would be an incredibly bad idea.
If he goes to a prostitute, even if she is disease free, and the sweetest
human being on the planet - both of which will be highly unlikely - there
is the reality that she isn't there, because she wants to be there, but
because she is being payed to be there, and she really doesn't want him.
(Before someone asks, "do no sweet women go into this ?", I'll respond by
saying, "yes, but they don't tend to stay sweet for very long").
As hard as he may try to work at putting this thought out of his mind, it
will be there, and it will poison this, his first sexual experience.
That's a bad bit of baggage to pick up.
There is a better way.
OK, here's the big secret to finding a partner, that late bloomers tend to
not know. The secret is, that there is no secret. Much has be hinted at,
and written about, on the subject of reading a person's body language, and
picking up subtle hints, that indicate a woman's degree of interest, and
men lacking a base of experience make themselves crazy, trying to play
catchup, and figure these things out. And it's all bullshit. The guy
already knows how individual such body language is among men. Why does he
imagine that it will be any different among women ?
The problem lies in trying to make this assessment in one quick step. What
one does, in trying to get closer to a woman physically, or emotionally,
is to take very small, tiny steps, and pay very, very close attention to
her, as one does so. The moment that she shows even the most subtle sign
of discomfort (and those tend to be more universal - a very slight tensing
of the muscles, for example), back off, and say no more about it. Leave
the plausible deniability, that keeps the situation from becoming
uncomfortable for all present. This is not a time for blunt honesty. If
she didn't want something to happen, well, then nothing happened. End of
story. Don't let it go so far, that she needs to verbalise her wish that
you stop. And for God's sake, don't talk about it. Let it drop.
Might you overreact ? Of course. And if so, and you're still paying
attention, she'll seem faintly, again, very subtly, disappointed (face
dropping a little, that sort of thing), and you'll know that you backed
off too quickly.
If not, let the degree of discomfort, dictate how long you wait, before
taking another very small step, and seeing if she is now comfortable
with that next step. If, on the next time she is even more uncomfortable
(again, only very very mildly), respect that without question, and wait
for another day.
We're not just talking about physical contact, here. This applies to any
sort of statement of affection, or interest. That scene, that appears in
the movies again and again, where the male lead, suddenly and
unpredictably confesses his love, to the female lead, and she is swept
off her feet, is a childish theatrical lie. In real life, the woman, if
she didn't run screaming for the hills, would, in great discomfort, be
seeking for a tactful way to decline, and the man would be left seeking
a graceful way to look like he didn't notice that he was embarassed.
He could easily ruin something, that might have worked out.
I assume that we all understand that a good deal of emotional contact
(indirect expression of interest seems best).
And that's really about it. This is not brain surgery. Ever notice how
many really dumb guys, manage to sleep around ? That should tell you, just
how much theory is really called for, here.
(Not that I'm recommending that you sleep around, or saying that I do.
"Well, how do you make her like you ?". You don't. You work at being the
most pleasant company you can be, but understand that she will come to
like you on her own, or won't do so at all. What you have to do, is avoid
making her not like you. So, no lines. Will a given woman like you ?
Probably not. "Rejection" is a normal part of the process, and it isn't a
reflection on you. Ever see a circle of people, each liking the next
one, where, say, Bob likes Sue who likes George who likes Mary who likes
Bob ? If there was some sort of universal order of desirability, such
circles could not exist. If you get rejected, all that it means is that
you weren't right for her, specifically. No big deal, and no cause for
embarassment, and if she should laugh at you, so what ? A display of
immaturity like that, demonstrates that she isn't worth YOUR time.
Shaking your head, rolling your eyes, and offering a simple "whatever"
will cut that off, pretty often.
Oh, and you might consider using whichever method works best for you, to
temporarily dampen your sex drive. Losing the hunger, will lessen the
discomfort it causes in someone you're dating.
And yes, definitely work on improving what it is, that you have to offer.
Amazing how many men will go online to complain about how women are
rejecting them because of their physique - and yet never bother to visit
the gym. Develop a good variety of interests, that involve social contact.
Not only does it give you a comfortable, partially structured environment
in which to meet women, without giving the direct, and uncomfortable
implication that this is what you are there to do (leaving the encounter
feeling forced, and unnatural), but it gives you something to talk about.
It also gives you an opportunity to develop a personal, nonsexual
relationship with someone, and for her to become comfortable with you, and
develop a level of trust. Work on the wardrobe, make sure that you're
getting enough sleep....yes, this is a major undertaking. Why shouldn't it
be ? It's not just sex, it's also the relationship that the sex is part
of, that we are talking about, and that's a big part of one's life.
There is a separate issue, here, though. Prostitution hurts the customer,
yes, but there is also the issue of harm to the prostitute, and the
perpetuation of an institution, whose participants aren't always there as
a matter of truly free choice. One must also think of them, and not
just of one's own pleasure......
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The argument has been offered lately, that to oppose the legalization of
prostitution, is to oppose the freedom of women to make use of their
bodies, as they wish. It is not an argument that one can simply laugh off,
as a bit of advocacy, for a position that will never be implemented as
policy, because, in effect, it already has been, in many places. Even
while the laws against prostitution are still theoretically in effect,
they often are unenforced irrelevancies, like the laws against
"fornication" (ie. premarital sex). In fact, here in Chicago, the services
go so far as to advertise in the Yellow pages (see "escort agencies"), and
in at least two of the weekly papers (The Reader and New City, under
"adult services"). So, far from this being a far out position, that we
need not fear seeing in practice, it is, actually, de facto reality, here,
and in many other cities.
The argument in question ignores the reality, that the "choice" made in
entering prostitution, is often not a free one. A phenomenon that is seen
more and more, is that of the young woman, often in college, who is forced
to sell her body out of financial desperation, because there is no other
work available to her at the time, and her "choices" are between this, or,
in order, dropping out of school (because financial aid has been cut, and
she can't raise the tuition), locking her out of job opportunities, as a
result. This, followed by death by starvation (because food stamps have
been cut off, under "welfare reform"), or hypothermia, depending on what
the weather is, when she finds herself out on the street. If this is not
coercion, what is ? Society, in presenting her with a choice between
selling herself, or being denied a chance at survival (ie. being killed,
by being forcibly kept away from food), has participated in her rape. The
fact that the recipient of her involuntarily granted favors is chosen more
or less at random, does not change the moral status of the situation.
The defense offered on behalf of the johns, and the pimps, in this
situation, is that at least, they gave her a way out of a life threatening
predicament. And, I would add, into a marginally less threatening
predicament, given the prevalence of AIDS in the sex industry. But there's
another issue. Desperation can be manufactured. In the last decade or so,
a major cause of this desperation, has been the unwillingness of many
employers to hire anyone, for any position, who has not yet had 2 - 5
years of working experience, in that specific position, raising the common
sensical question, of how the applicant is supposed to get that
experience. The credentials demanded, have become more and more extreme,
as employers have refused to interview anyone with less than a 3.8 average
on a 4 scale (3.5 being Dean's list), or informed people with graduate
degrees, that second or third degrees will be needed before the applicant
will be hired (the degrees to be obtained, without support, in most
cases), or, completely reversing themselves later on, announcing that they
don't want the degrees indicated in the past, now, and are refusing the
applicant employment, on the basis of "overqualification".
Leaving the deeply indebted student, wondering how she, or he, can
possibly find work, and pay the bills, that arise in simply surviving the
winter. The excuse offered, for the practices that create this
predicament, is that they simply reflect the workings of the free market,
as the employers choose the best candidates that they can find, a
process which the government can interfere in, only at the price of
reducing the productivity of the economy. Except, that's a lie. By their
own acknowledgement, employers have stubbornly refused to budge on these
unreasonable expectations they have, of finding a "perfect fit", when
hiring, even at the expense of not finding "qualified applicants" (ie.
those meeting the narrow, and ludicrously unrealistic requirements on
those wish lists) for years, and losing money, because work is going
undone. Even if this claim were true, though, do the rest of us have right
to make ourselves richer, by depriving someone else of so basic a right,
as deciding who shall and shall not have access to her body ?
As a matter of practical reality, legalization, or effective legalization,
creates an incentive for many who are in a position to decide what the
job market shall be, to structure it in such a way as to create such
desperation. If good job opportunities exist, and one is a fat, bald,
boring, and mean spirited 50 year old man, who aspires to have sex with a
string of beautiful, intelligent 21 year old women, one may have to change
one's expectations, a little. But let such desperation as may drive a
woman into this industry become commonplace, then satisfying this
otherwise unrealistic desire, may become as simple for our personnel
manager, as picking up a copy of the local free weekly, and dialing the
phone.
If our would be john must fear arrest, he may not feel free to do his
part, in creating the atmosphere of desperation that he would like to
benefit from. Soft, weak white males do not tend to fare well, in the
county prison, even during short stays. Indeed, it has been said, that
they often gain a deep personal insight, into what it feels like, to be
forced into sex. But remove this fear, and those of us on the losing end
of this unequal power relationship, will find ourselves in a vulnerable
position. What has been glossed over, is the fact that the laws against
prostitution, protect the freedom of those who don't want to enter the
industry, from being economically coerced into doing so.
So, perhaps, a more rational approach, would be to view the prostitute as
a possible victim, and offer her counseling, as one would offer it to any
rape victim, and criminalize the act of paying for prostitution. (Say,
with a prison sentence of a few years, and a mandatory removal from
managerial work, for life. Either that, or requiring that all decisions
involving hiring or firing, be farmed out to a licensed consultant).
By the way, when I referred to "those of us" who would be finding
ourselves vulnerable, in the paragraph before last, this was not an
oversight. Some young men may like the idea, of prostitution becoming more
widespread, because they may want to buy. Setting aside the moral issue
for a second, here's a happy thought. Sexually undesirable men aren't the
only ones who have libidos. There are more than a few middle aged, and
older, women, who like younger men, and some of them are in management,
too. I remember one, in particular, who openly, and vocally, relished the
notion of the young men in grad school paying their way through, that way,
looking at me in much the same way that a lion looks at a wildebeast, in a
nature special, before asking me how much I cost, as I got up and left in
disgust. Not all of the creeps out there, are male. Careful about what you
would wish on someone else. The same may end up being inflicted on you.
Even if your johns (or should I say, janes) are the right gender, given
your sexual orientation - not something that you will necessarily be
guaranteed.
Like it or not, in an "every man for himself" system, one is far likelier
to end up a victim, than a victor, even if one has so little emotional
connection to those around one, to view the opportunity to so impose on
another, as a victory. The legalization of prostitution, would function as
a major step, in that direction.
As for how we deal with the desperate circumstances that drive women
(and men) to such measures, how about....
1. recognizing that equality of educational and vocational
opportunity, up to the limits set by one's abilities, are
fundamental rights, that may not legitimately be denied
on the basis of poverty. Restore financial aid for education,
and set price caps on tuition, which has been rising at several
times the rate of inflation for the last few decades.
Yes, I know that will create a shortage of positions. In
supplying commodities, this is a bad thing, which is why we let
the market set grain prices, for example. In education,
"shortage of positions" translates into "competition for
positions". Tell me, if you go to the doctor, would you rather
know that he was one of the 90 best applicants for his position
in medical school, or one of the 90 richest ? To allow the market
to set tuition, and thus, eliminate the competition for
positions, is to create a situation in which advancement is
dependent, not on individual ability, but on access to funds.
This is an injustice to the applicant, and detrimental to
society, when the less than optimal applicants begin private
practice.
2. Extend the age discrimination laws, to protect those between 18
and 40, also, and restore the presumption in favor of the
plaintiff, in discrimination cases. (At present, if one doesn't
have access to the complete employment records for the company,
something that an individual plaintiff will find almost
impossible to obtain, and definitely impossible to analyze on
his own, given the sheer bulk of records involved, AND the
employer declines to give a reason for the hiring decision in
question, proving discrimination is next to impossible).
3. Establish job creation programs, that make use of the student's
skills, in socially useful areas, and make a point of paying
above market rate. The job lasts, either a certain number
of reasonable job offers (in terms of salary, location, and
safety, among other criteria) come in, counting permanent offers,
from non job program agencies.
Make the same offer, to everyone who is unemployed.
Make it more expensive, to keep people idle, than to keep them
working, by a good margin. If the corporate community doesn't get
the point, let some of those job creation agencies start
producing goods and services, as if they were private companies,
and continue at this, until either people are hired away, or the
organization is functioning well enough, to survive as a company
on its own (and establish it as one, and set it free). Bring in
the indefinitely laid off, or involuntarily retired senior
managers, as advisory personnel, at appropriate wages levels
(guaranteed by contract, with the corporate entity, that the
government releases from further obligations to it, upon "freeing
the company") to the lower paid, younger managers taking over.
(Here, we refrain from putting those senior managers in charge,
due to considerations of the risk of unexpected mortality, and
disruption of company operations, during transition).
Until placement in work, support for basic needs (food, shelter,
health, etc.) to be guaranteed by public support - but only until
then, and don't let that be long.
Consider all of the things that need to be done, and never can
be done, because there isn't enough profit in it. (For example,
environmental reclamation, the developing of medicines for rare
diseases, basic research in general,.....)
Let's not pretend, that it would be hard, to find worthwhile
things for people to do, or even interesting, worthwhile things
for them to do. Maybe we should consider the blasphemous
possibility, that with the decreases in the market demand for
labor due to increasing automation, that large scale public
sector hiring will eventually become a regular necessity
eventually, and that in the not too distant future, pure
capitalism, as opposed to a mixed system, may have outlived its
usefulness, if not its viability as a system that reasonable
people may support, in good conscience.
How horrific must a system's failures be, before it is changed ? How
seriously may those who hold power in a society expect others to take
their values, when they stand by, and allow their daughters, and their
sons, to be cornered into selling their bodies, for prostitution, or
medical experimentation, in order keep the market absolutely "free".
Acting in willful ignorance of the often perverse, or predatory motives
that influence the behavior of that market, in the untidy reality that
exists outside of the idealized picture offered us by ideologues, and
conservative economists ?
And when they grow old, if they grow old, and it is those sons and
daughters who now rule, how much forgiveness can they expect if they never
acted on their children's behalf, and allowed these things to be done to
them ?
It can be hard to know who to trust. Ever notice, that whenever there is
an action, such as the one in question, that would reduce a young woman's
desirability to the opposite sex, one can count on hearing from a chorus
of older women, who think that it is the best thing that the young woman
can do for herself, or will at least try to argue that it isn't so bad ?
Almost as if they wanted to be rid of a potential competitor, for their
present mate, or a future one, and saw nothing wrong with taking advantage
of her trust in them, to lead her astray, in order to do so. Ever notice
how more and more older men, seem to be growing fond of playing the same
game, when dealing with their younger peers ? It's enough to make one
wonder, if the growing demand for unconditional civility, is an attempt to
mask an upsurge of passive aggression.
One thing is for certain, though. If we embrace a philosophy that tells us
to dismiss what an entire class of our peers has to say, without further
examination, calling for stonewalling rather than suspicion, we will
divide ourselves into small, defenseless camps, and be far easier prey,
for the predators among us. There are some in these groups, who would
argue that a man should not argue a point here, unless he was following
a woman's lead, because they didn't need "male guidance". Nonsense. You're
a person, and I'm a person, and I should take an interest in your well
being, for just that reason. That recognition, is what civilisation is.
I wouldn't want you, a stranger, to put uncritical trust in me, and I
don't ask you to accept my conclusions without examining the arguments
that support them - and they have been mentioned here. Given that, is my
gender even slightly relevant ? And how would one argue, that the
assertion that it was, was not an ad hominem ? If each of us does not
watch out for the others, being open to making common cause, though, or
listen to the warnings that others will offer, then we will be isolating
ourselves from the social support that has made life a safer, and more
pleasant, endeavor than it might otherwise be. If someone would do that,
then what does it say about her ? That she hates men, more than she loves
herself ? I pray that I will never be so consumed by bigotry.
As a closing note, since someone will bring it up, yes, there are many
private sources of scholarship money, a point that conservatives love to
bring up. Lightly skipping over the fact that there are also many
students, too many for the funds available, and many won't qualify for
those available, such as the ethnicity or gender specific ones. (Like the
one at the University of Chicago, which was available to students of
Norwegian descent from Logansville, Illinois, who eventually wish to
practice dentistry, if I remember correctly). Following the lead set by
their perennial hero, former president Reagan, they offer half baked
ideas, without examination, as if they were solutions, and indignantly
refuse to listen when the flaws in their plans are pointed out. A failing
the embrace of which, has become a matter of bipartisan consensus, sad to
say.
Joseph Dunphy
By the way, I am NOT going to apologise for the length of that
last post. It takes more time to show what is wrong, with a
fashionable, but irresponsible sound bite, than to go ahead,
and pay lip service to it, as Sherry has done, here.
Relevant points, aren't always simple ones. Require brevity,
in all cases, and you will be discarding issues that need to be
raised. Doing so, does not lead one to the truth, but to
the sort of thoughtless seen here.
Joseph Dunphy (st...@typhoon.xnet.com) wrote:
: Sherry Bailey (slba...@bu.edu), in a bust of thoughtlessness or passive
Joseph Dunphy
Joseph Dunphy (st...@typhoon.xnet.com) wrote:
: By the way, I seem to remember that you were quite the man basher,
: back on rec.org.mensa, about 2 years ago. And now you care about
: this man's frustration, so deeply. Pardon me if I offer the
: skeptical thought, that you might not have his best interests at
: heart, as you give this advice.
Of course, someone will write in, to complain about this "ad
hominem argument", acting on the common bit of net ignorance, that
holds that "criticism" and "ad hominem" are synonomous.
Wrong. An ad hominem only occurs, when a concrete argument is
answered with a commentary on the person making it. And, I would
add, it is something that more than a few of those who push this
fallacy, engage in, on line, on a regular basis.
If the "argument" consists of the offering of a gut reaction, then
the character, credentials or reliability of the person offering
the argument, ARE the argument, and as such, become a proper
subject for discussion. To demand that they not be addressed, at
that point, is to make a disingenuous demand to, in effect, leave
the reliability of the gut reaction that the others are supposed
to take as conclusive, unevaluated. To do so, is intellectually
dishonest.
This particular followup is being crossposted over to sci.logic,
from whence this fallacy seems to have originated.
: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Amrika
Jim Dutton wrote in message <69561g$661$1...@Mars.mcs.net>...
:
: This reminds me of when Homer gave Barney his first beer in college.
:
:-Jeem, make sure you bring money for a stop at the convenient store on the
: way home.
:
-still have some left over, what's the expiration date on those things
anyway?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Cinderelli Cinderelli, come back Cinderelli
:
:========================================================================
:
:
:
OOP
Joseph, I read most of your posting. I think that you are being too
pessimistic. There are plenty of successful happy people that enjoy the
occasional trip to Amsterdam for a joint and a blowjob. No matter what your
argument, I have the right to do that. Life is only lived once. I believe
that as long as you are not hurting anyone, you should try to experience as
many experiences as life has to offer. You are fighting a battle against
the oldest profession on earth. You obviously have more interest in this
matter than casual newsgroup chat.
My advice to the lad: Give it a try where it is legal and promoted in a
healthy manner; i.e. Amsterdam, Nevada, etc...
My 2 cents...
OOP
turtoni
OOP wrote:
> My advice to the lad: Give it a try where it is legal and promoted in a
> healthy manner; i.e. Amsterdam, Nevada, etc...
>
Hey you leave Amsterdam alone, we're sick of you tourists coming over here for
sex, drugs and rock & roll and hiking up the prices :)
> My 2 cents...
>
> OOP
Ian
Bards
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:10:04 +0100, turtoni <ia...@wm.estec.esa.nl>
wrote:
Exactly. It's a shame they don't move the sex 'n' drugs bit to
Swindon, or somewhere, and leave us to enjoy this beautiful and
cultural city in peace.
Having said that, I guess a packet labelled 'Four Quality Joints from
Swindon' wouldn't make such a good souvenir. (A good name for a band,
maybe.)
In fact, since the Wehrmacht ran off with all the diamonds, Amsterdam
survives largely on the money it makes from bedraggled English weekend
junkies.
--- Spoiler : Ian is not a bedraggled English weekend junkie. (Sorry
girls.)
Bards :*)
-- remove the 'sp' in 'spamdragon' to reply --
OOP
So sorry, at least you have these conveniences available to you... And I'm
sure that you know people and places that the tourists don't.
Also, I know that tourism brings a lot of money into your country. Trust
me, millions of us Americans wish we had an Amsterdam in the US.
And I never said anything about Rock & Roll...
OOP
>OOP wrote:
>
>> My advice to the lad: Give it a try where it is legal and promoted in a
>> healthy manner; i.e. Amsterdam, Nevada, etc...
>>
>
>Hey you leave Amsterdam alone, we're sick of you tourists coming over here
for
>sex, drugs and rock & roll and hiking up the prices :)
>
turtoni
OOP wrote:
> So sorry, at least you have these conveniences available to you... And I'm
> sure that you know people and places that the tourists don't.
>
Yeah, Turtoni's tour guides, to see the darker side of dark...
> Also, I know that tourism brings a lot of money into your country. Trust
> me, millions of us Americans wish we had an Amsterdam in the US.
>
Or yeah, never thought of that ;)
> And I never said anything about Rock & Roll...
>
Sheesh, lighten up mister.
> OOP
>
Ian - who wonders if they put seriousness in the US water supply.
John Fereira
In article <885827480...@dejanews.com>, brwr...@erols.com wrote:
>In article <34CC5FF9...@wm.estec.esa.nl>,
>short supply in the United States these days! :)
I blame that on our youth spending way too much time watching MTV.
John Fereira
ja...@cornell.edu
Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email - Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org)
Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.
Turtoni
brwr...@erols.com wrote:
> Is this meant to be ironic? After all, seriousness DOES seem to be in
> short supply in the United States these days! :)
>
Shouldn't you be watching, reading, listening, playing music somewhere, you little
devil.
=8)
Turtoni
brwr...@erols.com wrote:
> Not if I have place(s) to go, person(s) to see, etc.! :)
Oh, off on a date? Come on then what's the score, go to Planet Hollywood for burger and
fries, followed by the Titanic film, then see Hanson in concert, all rounded off with a
strawberry milkshake in the orange glow of the street lights?
Ian
Turtoni
brwr...@erols.com wrote:
> ....I also enjoy creative writing. I like to read international fiction
> (Toer, Chandra, Pamuk) and progressive magazines (Utne Reader, The
> Nation). On weekends, I would like to get back to art classes in oil
> painting and portrait drawing (first learned during my high school art
> classes).
Well if your not winding me up, you say you like some of my posts and that's kind of you to
say so.
I feel you getting much better at communicating in the NG and some of your posts are funny
and interesting and who knows what spinoff's they might/do create, but I feel we could be
over stepping the mark a bit here, and I for one don't want to upset the NG by filling it up
with our ranting, although nobody has sent *me* any requests to go to email (which *I* would
treat with respect & privacy if anybody did) with you for example and lay off the NG, but I
think say, er, John for one is getting pissed off with our verbal diarrhea / talkative
nature and I can see his point of view.
So I guess what I'm saying is I'm going to respond to you in email from now on unless it's
on topic and gives the opportunity for other people to comment, even though they might not.
I would like to apologise to the NG for any distress I have caused and for any extra
bandwidth I've been hogging.
Bobbi if you post something that is intended for me particularly I reckon you should email
me instead and obviously the same applies to me.
Hope that makes some kind of sense, as usual I'm wacking this out, whilst doing a few other
things.
Ian, sorry.
=8(
brw
Agreed