Spanking discipline
Albert Terego
going on during the spanking itself. By the same token, I often want
to reward a bottom who's doing an especially good job of helping
things along.
I'm curious about how others approach this. I realize this is very
personal and has more to do with individual style and sensitivity than
with rigid mechanics. No doubt the seemingly telepathic communication
that can occur between top and bottom is exactly the nebulous thing
that makes the difference between a great session and a poor one. But
I think it also may be possible to pin down at least a little.
Probably the most frequent punishment-in-a-punishment I've seen
referred to in the spanking literature is announcing the addition of
extra strokes, Unfortunately, that works best for a limited rage of
spanking styles, where the exact duration or number of strokes is
specified in advance and known to the bottom. I don't give that kind
of spanking very often, I find.
Another possibility (and something that I do sometimes) is to switch
to a more severe implement, but that usually entails a somewhat
jarring break in rhythm, so I don't usually resort to it that unless I
want to punish some particularly egregious behavior (or the other
implement is very close at hand).
Both these approaches have the disadvantage of being a bit "all or
nothing" and overt. That may be just the ticket if the bottom is
doing something deliberately disobedient (and when "obedience" on the
part of the bottom is called for), but isn't well suited to nudging
the bottom toward or away from some behavior. Furthermore, these
kinds of measures seem to me to presuppose that the spanking itself is
a punishment, that more strokes or stronger implements necessarily
make things less pleasant. That's true only sometimes. In any case,
I'd prefer to have a subtler and more nuanced way of communicating,
something that allows a tight coupling between the my state of mind
and the bottom's immediate experience.
What I often do is leave a sensitive area (typically the back of the
legs, depending on the bottom in question) relatively untouched (and
unwarmed up) and available for harder "penalty strokes" when I want to
communicate some degree of displeasure. This has the advantage of
allowing me to adjust the severity along a pretty wide range while not
requiring a break in the overall flow of things.
As for little rewards, I personally find that they vary quite widely,
depending to a large extent on the needs of and my relationship with
the particular bottom. Probably my most universal "reward" is little
back rub that signals appreciation. It feels good (and provides a
nice contrast to the sensations a little further south), isn't overtly
sexual or modesty offending, and needn't interrupt the business at
hand. And of course, withholding that kind of reassuring touch for a
little while can be a subtle but effective punishment in its own
right.
I suspect most all spankers engage in least some in-spanking
rewarding and punishing (certainly I respond this sort of thing when I
switch). So, any other ideas that can be put into words? What do
other tops here do? Also, what kinds of things do you tend to reward
and punish?
Thanks
A.T.
Dovia Arlington
wouldn't be over until I did. He wasn't threatening more of anything, just
pointing out that's it was senseless delay it. We both hated it and will
probably never do another genuine punishment spanking.
During fun spankings, he doesn't become more severe if I resist, and he is
likely to stop if I resist for long. If I want more, I have to be good. If I
want harder, I have to ask for it. Then I get what I ask for and suddenly
don't want it, and he teases me with that. I think he likes that part even
more than he likes the spanking.
Dovia
Jim
> When I give a spanking I sometimes want to punish bad behavior that's
> going on during the spanking itself. By the same token, I often want
> to reward a bottom who's doing an especially good job of helping
> things along.
>
> What I often do is leave a sensitive area (typically the back of the
> legs, depending on the bottom in question) relatively untouched (and
> unwarmed up) and available for harder "penalty strokes" when I want to
> communicate some degree of displeasure. This has the advantage of
> allowing me to adjust the severity along a pretty wide range while not
> requiring a break in the overall flow of things.
>
> As for little rewards, I personally find that they vary quite widely,
> depending to a large extent on the needs of and my relationship with
> the particular bottom. Probably my most universal "reward" is little
> back rub that signals appreciation. It feels good (and provides a
> nice contrast to the sensations a little further south), isn't overtly
> sexual or modesty offending, and needn't interrupt the business at
> hand. And of course, withholding that kind of reassuring touch for a
> little while can be a subtle but effective punishment in its own
> right.
>
Super discussion! I'll try this tonight--I find my lectures and some of
the non-verbal communication with Bethany don't come up to snuff. This
will definitely help. Thanks!
--
Jim
<http://www.herwoodshed.com> Bethany's Woodshed
<mailto:wvto...@aol.com> ABCD Webmasters
**************************************************************
..this curious & pathetic fact of life: that when parents are old &
their children grown up, the grown-up children are not the persons
they formerly were; that their former selves have wandered away,
never to return again, save in dream-glimpses of their young forms
that tarry a moment & gladden the eye, then vanish & break the
heart. - "Memorial to Olivia Susan Clemens" Mark Twain
Tony Elka
Arlington <doviaar...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
> During a genuine punishment he told me sternly to hold the position and said
> it
> wouldn't be over until I did. He wasn't threatening more of anything, just
> pointing out that's it was senseless delay it. We both hated it and will
> probably never do another genuine punishment spanking.
That's one reason I've almost never given genuine punishment spankings.
My inclination is to do a role-play scene, in which the spanking is
given as if the punishment were genuine, but for a fictional misdeed.
Leads to less hurt feelings and resentment.
Tony
Dovia Arlington
>punishment spankings. My inclination is to do a
>role-play scene, in which the spanking is given as
if the punishment were genuine, but for a fictional misdeed.
>
>Leads to less hurt feelings and resentment.
It didn't lead to hurt feelings or resentment between us
exactly, it was just negative. It took me a long time to
get feeling good about liking spanking and spanking became
an energizing, erotic thing for us. Punishment was my fantasy.
Reality is that I hate feeling bad about something that I
learned to feel really good about, and he hated using the
special thing we share in a way that made us both feel bad.
I would like to play with punishment someday, when the
bad taste is out of our mouths. The posts from people who
play that way sound like a lot of fun! I don't want to cry
during a spanking anymore. It's so much better to giggle and
squeal and laugh and pant. It's a bright and happy thing that
we do together and I want it to stay that way.
It's very good that we found a safe and joyful place in our lives
for this kink o'mine, but I still like punishment stories a lot.
Go figure. :)
Dovia
OddBall
You made some great points about how you view spanking. I like to keep
spanking as an entertainment and - under certain circumstances - as
foreplay. I've always expected it to be a pleasure, even when it hurts a
lot. However, if I feel bad or naughty (and not in a fun, playing way)
or wrong about something, I can accept a spanking as a mild "snap out of
it" action but not as serious discipline or punishment. I can't develop
a mindset that can accept spanking as a r/l form of punishment. I just
come to resesnt the spanking and the spanker and the situation that put
me there while it is happening.
I know many people believe in the benefits of punishment spanking and
some actually need it, but I am one of those who use spanking for fun
and one who gets contentment from mild but still lightly painful
spanking. I'll take my punishment in some other form.
Muffy
Albert Terego
> During a genuine punishment he told me sternly to hold the position and said it
> wouldn't be over until I did. He wasn't threatening more of anything, just
> pointing out that's it was senseless delay it. We both hated it and will
> probably never do another genuine punishment spanking.
>
I've never given or received a genuine punishment spanking myself. I'm not
sure how it would work - everyone spank with *likes* being spanked,
so I'm not sure how being spanked, even a little extra hard, would
be a punishment.
I know some people do have relationships that incorportate real punishment
spankings, but I've not myself ever been in one.
On the other hand, I find I occasionally give (and sometimes receive)
"playful" punishment spankings, sometimes in the context of roleplay
(though not often) and more often in the context of playful behavior
(like in response to teasing that's really saying "come on, spank me
for god's sake! I dare you!).
> During fun spankings, he doesn't become more severe if I resist, and he is
> likely to stop if I resist for long. If I want more, I have to be good. If I
> want harder, I have to ask for it. Then I get what I ask for and suddenly
> don't want it, and he teases me with that. I think he likes that part even
> more than he likes the spanking.
Sounds delicious.
Cheers,
A.T.
Albert Terego
> the non-verbal communication with Bethany don't come up to snuff. This
> will definitely help. Thanks!
Sooo... how'd it go?
A.T.
Redder Is Better
spanking partner:
IMHO, "discipline" in consenting adults is utter nonsense....while
"scolding" in a scene enhances the experience, anyone who thinks adults
"need discipline" is kidding themselves
Mija
So is it your opinion the that those of us who see themselves as /
or are subject to discipline by our partner are either not consenting,
not adults or somehow kidding ourselves?
It's an interesting discussion, one I disagree with you on, I
think, but I'd like to understand what you mean a little better
before taking issue with your statement.
Peace,
Mija
Posted and mailed
--
"The real is that which resists and compels symbolization."
Pablo and Mija's Treehouse - http://www.thetreehouse.net
sarah nada
Redder is Better wrote:
I disagree. It doesn't sound like the discipline angle works for you, and
that's totally legitimate. But I think it's more than a little presumptuous to
say that those who see it differently are kidding themselves... It would be
equally icky for someone to argue that people who see spanking as fun or
foreplay are just masking a deepseated need for discipline.
Spanking means different things to different people, and that's cool.
My own POV on the spanking as punishment thing falls somewhere between the two
extremes. I'm on the submissive end of a grandly strange, full-time D/s
relationship. My partner spanks me for fun, as foreplay, and because he feels
like it. He also spanks me for screwing up. Most of the time even that has an
element of play to it, but there have been a couple of occasions when it's been
dead serious.
Those spankings were no more severe than some of the stuff we do for fun, but
the tone and intent were different. They *felt* different, and worked for us
under the circumstances.
So yes, I'm subject to discipline (which frequently takes non-spanking forms).
I don't think that means I'm kidding myself, but if it does I can live with it.
The bottom line is that we're happy. Other people are equally happy doing
things differently, and more power to them.
Sarah
- it's hotmail dot com not dot common -
sarah nada
Albert Terego wrote:
>What I often do is leave a sensitive area (typically the back of the
>legs, depending on the bottom in question) relatively untouched (and
>unwarmed up) and available for harder "penalty strokes" when I want to
>communicate some degree of displeasure. This has the advantage of
>allowing me to adjust the severity along a pretty wide range while not
>requiring a break in the overall flow of things.
This approach sounds familiar to me, but at our house the sensitive areas tend
to be more, um, centrally located. (Think pink.)
>I suspect most all spankers engage in least some in-spanking
>rewarding and punishing (certainly I respond this sort of thing when I
>switch). So, any other ideas that can be put into words? What do
>other tops here do? Also, what kinds of things do you tend to reward
>and punish?
I'm a bottom, but couldn't resist this thread. <g>
The mid-spanking behavior I'm most likely to get in trouble for is wiggling
around. Being loud is a close second. I see those as perfectly natural
responses to getting spanked, so they strike me (pun intended) as excuses for J
to take things up a notch. Not that he needs excuses.
I tend to get rewarded for resisting the urge to wiggle and holler, and the
rewards tend to come in the form of lovely rough sex afterwards. Or sweets. Or
both.
Thanks for the interesting thread.
Redder Is Better
clarification
If you disagree, fine-but then I have some questions for you:
1) What if the "partner who sets the rules" breaks one of them ??? I'd
be willing to bet that in a case like that it'd be a "do as I say not as
I do" type of situation
2) I would pretty much agree that D/s, S & M, OTK or whatever name you
want to give it involves trusting your partner-what happens when that
trust is betrayed ??? What if there are financial consequences ??
3) How do you draw the line between "discipline" & "brutality" or abuse
??
Fantasy should NOT require abandoning "common sense".....
Pablo
>1) What if the "partner who sets the rules" breaks one of them ??? I'd
>be willing to bet that in a case like that it'd be a "do as I say not as
>I do" type of situation
If so, that would show that the relationship was very poorly
negotiated, and was heading for the rocks.
You seem to assume that 'setting the rules' in a relationship
which involves discipline is a one-sided thing. Why? If it's
going to work well, IMO, the 'rules' in such a relationship
need to be - at some level - agreed and consented to by both
parties.
Which *doesn't*, of course, mean that they need to apply
symmetrically. Different people have different needs and wants
from such a relationship, and it's fine and natural for the
'rules' to not be the same for each, so long as the balance
is right for both people, consent is there, and communication
is good.
An analogy that I think helps a lot here is that of Odysseus
asking his men to tie him to the mast when passing the sirens,
because he knew he'd be drawn to them. He also knew he'd tell
his men to untie him, so he told them not to untie him under
any circumstances.
Fundamentally here, control belongs to Odysseus, because he
wants and consents to the tying up and the disobedience when
he tells his men to untie him. But anyone watching at *that*
point would think that his men were rebelling.
The moral of the story: consent and communication are completely
crucial, and can be there without necessarily *seeming* to be
there to the casual observer.
>2) I would pretty much agree that D/s, S & M, OTK or whatever name you
>want to give it involves trusting your partner-what happens when that
>trust is betrayed ???
That would be up to the partner. As it is in any relationship.
A BDSM relationship isn't anything special here.
> What if there are financial consequences ??
Not sure what you mean.
>3) How do you draw the line between "discipline" & "brutality" or abuse
>??
Consent! It's as simple as that.
>Fantasy should NOT require abandoning "common sense".....
Well actually, in many ways fantasy doesn't need common sense
at all. But I think you're talking not about fantasy but about
bringing real-life discipline into a relationship. Making fantasy
real, if you like. That needs common sense more than *anything*
else, I'd suggest. I'm not sure anyone here is suggesting otherwise.
Pablo
"Live your beliefs and you can turn the world around."
Pablo and Mija's Treehouse: http://www.thetreehouse.net
Jen
answer most of them because I'm in a situation where I get real punishment
spankings for breaking rules.
"Redder Is Better" wrote
> I really do not believe that my previous post requires further
> clarification
>
> If you disagree, fine-but then I have some questions for you:
>
> 1) What if the "partner who sets the rules" breaks one of them ??? I'd
> be willing to bet that in a case like that it'd be a "do as I say not as
> I do" type of situation
This wouldn't happen because the rules that are made are for ME. For things
I need to work on. He doesn't make rules for things he does, as in I would
never get a rule that I couldn't drive fast, because he does it and doesn't
have a problem with it. Same with swearing. He doesn't mind it, so I don't
have a rule about it.
>
> 2) I would pretty much agree that D/s, S & M, OTK or whatever name you
> want to give it involves trusting your partner-what happens when that
> trust is betrayed ???
I haven't ever had to deal with trust being betrayed with my Dom, so I can't
really say what would happen, but I do know that trust betrayed upsets a
relationship in more ways than if punishment spankings work or not. I don't
think ANY spankings would work at that point.
What if there are financial consequences ??
I don't understand what you're getting at here.
>
> 3) How do you draw the line between "discipline" & "brutality" or abuse
> ??
>
> Fantasy should NOT require abandoning "common sense".....
My Dom doesn't brutalize or abuse me. I'm punished for breaking rules, but
he stops when he knows I've learned my lesson, and somehow he can always
tell when that is. His rules are never arbitrary, so I know what to expect,
and he doesn't make rules on a whim. He's never drawn blood, and has always
said that anything happening would stop automatically if that ever happened
accidently. So I don't ever worry when it comes to being disciplined by him
because he's got my best interests in mind.
Jen
Mija
> I really do not believe that my previous post requires further
> clarification
Thank you for writing this then. Since I do disagree, I'll
follow-up and try to answer the points raised.
>
> If you disagree, fine-but then I have some questions for you:
>
> 1) What if the "partner who sets the rules" breaks one of them ??? I'd
> be willing to bet that in a case like that it'd be a "do as I say not as
> I do" type of situation.
It would honestly depend on what rule it was and whether it was
one that needed to apply to him or not.
In my case, my partner doesn't have the same need for consistant
external structure (nor, generally speaking, the same guilt Jones).
He's much better and more comfortable with being responsible to
himself. That doesn't mean he doesn't understand where my needs
come from, just that he doesn't have them himself.
However, I've no doubt that if the situation required it, the
tables would be turned. I'm not a switch, but a person or two
here would tell you I'm no whimp when it comes to laying on a
spanking.
> 2) I would pretty much agree that D/s, S & M, OTK or whatever name you
> want to give it involves trusting your partner-what happens when that
> trust is betrayed ??? What if there are financial consequences ??
Same as with a marriage or any other relationship. People
get hurt, there are losses -- people get hurt. And yes, both
people have to be able to trust and communicate. A nice
fantasy is a partner who knows your every need and thought
without your saying anything. The reality is that communication
has to be pretty constant.
In my very vanilla marriage, I trusted my husband to be faithful,
he wasn't, with terrible consequences -- financially being the
least of it.
>
>3) How do you draw the line between "discipline" & "brutality" or abuse
> ??
The most heavy scenes we've done have been for play. Serious
play, but play never the less. As Sarah put it, what we do for
punishment isn't externally different from what we do for play.
But it feels different to both of us. I guess because of intent
and, in my case, guilt. I know I've messed up and feel pretty
bad about it. Fortunately it happens a lot less often than the
playtimes. I have a safeword (which I've never had to use). If
I felt that I was being abused, it would be my responsibility to
stop it.
But I guess the best answer is that the lines, in the relationship
I'm in, aren't anywhere near each other. People who are being
abused don't feel good about themselves. The live scared, walking
on egg-shells. That ain't me babe.
I've worried more about whether what we do takes a toll on my
partner than I do about myself.
> Fantasy should NOT require abandoning "common sense".....
I'm glad you put "commoon sense" into scare quotes. What I
do makes sense for me. My partner and I are equals, but we
weren't cut out of a cookie cutter. We're pretty different,
especially in the way we deal with responsibility, guilt and
independence.
Equal doesn't mean same. I'm sure this wouldn't be your
choice -- just as erotic or sensual spanking wouldn't be
mine. I don't think all adults need or want what I do. But
that doesn't make me want it any less. Or make it wrong
for me.
Peace,
Mija - who likes this discussion.
Posted and mailed
--
"The real is that which resists and compels symbolization."
Pablo and Mija's Treehouse - http://www.thetreehouse.net
Rosie Chiques
way I see it is I'm an adult, my husband is an adult.
I screw up, he screws up. I figure that's a result of
a condition I call being human and the whole purpose
of screwing up is to learn and grow as an aforesaid
human. If he were to punish me in any way shape or
form for screwing up, I'd be resentful as holy hell
about it and by the same token I would never punish
him for screwing up.
Of course at all times I behave as a responsible and
thoughtful adult. I would never go out and run up a
credit card, drive recklessly and get a ticket, fail
to pay my bills, balance our checkbook, be
irresponsible with regard to my former profession or
any of the other scenarios hapless women get
theirselves spanked for in various domestic discipline
stories. I may get tired and cranky but work like a
sonofabitch not to act out inappropriately. And if I
want a spanking I sure as hell know of very effective
ways of getting one without "bratting".
The way I see it, my husband and I are on a lifelong
adventure and we both need to work together to achieve
the lifestyle we want, to raise our children and to
grow and develop spiritually both individually and as
a couple. If I were to behave in a manner that would
subvert those goals there is no punishment that would
assuage that guilt. If my husband were to behave in a
similar manner I would have a serious problem
continuing the relationship.
Needless to say domestic discipline stories just don't
float my boat.
Rosie Chiques
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Albert Terego
[well-articulated reasons why she'd not want to be involved in a domestic
discipline situation deleted]
> Needless to say domestic discipline stories just don't
> float my boat.
Rosie,
I'm sure they don't, but I'm curious, why is that "needless to say"? I
found your reasons for not being interested in practicing domestic
disciplinary spanking to be very similar to my own reasons, and yet
to me the occasional and well-written *story* about domestic discipline
can make for a compelling basis for fantasy. (Again, I'm talking
about me here).
I'm not suggesting for a second that you *should* like stories about
domestic discipline or that your reasons aren't entirely legitimate or
valid. But I find that I often enjoy fantasies that I'd never want
to live out myself (some of which would make me go all squicky at the
thought of *other people* even doing them), and I assume that most other
people do, too.
(Also, I hasten to point out that my original post wasn't talking about
domestic discipline at all, although I find the ensuing sub-thread
interesting anyway).
Thanks
A.T.
CrimsnKid6
>Needless to say domestic discipline stories just don't
>float my boat.
I like them quite a bit, but basically as *hot fantasies* rather than
anything I'd consider currently feasible in my marital relationship.
However, I firmly believe that many spouses do *punish* one another on
occasion--but the chastisement is usually emotional rather than physical.
It may seem more *adult* to punish one's partner with verbal "fire and ice,"
which is what I usually get (IMHO a disciplinary paddling might be more
merciful), but there's no doubt in my mind that my darling wife is focusing on
modifying my behavior--along with releasing anger or frustration. (Sometimes I
deserve it, sometimes it's displaced aggression.)
In the stories I read (and occasionally write), the marital punitive
spankings generally seem to be effective and strengthen the marriage, whether
they're mutual or one-sided.
In RL, I'm not sure how effective they'd be for most couples, even spanko
types...
H.I.A.W.B.,
--C.K.(Crimson Kid)
Pianoman
"Rosie Chiques" <rosie_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> And if I want a spanking I sure as hell know of very effective
> ways of getting one without "bratting".
I agree with your points Rosie.
I'm one of those who thinks spankings are better when there is
no reason or excuse (pretend or otherwise) to do it.... apart
from the simple fact that the participants both like it and know it.
You mentioned you know of ways to get a spanking... do tell us a bit more!
Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks.
Pianoman
Fawne
> I suspect most all spankers engage in least some in-spanking
> rewarding and punishing (certainly I respond this sort of thing when I
> switch). So, any other ideas that can be put into words? What do
> other tops here do? Also, what kinds of things do you tend to reward
> and punish?
>
and question...I'm not a top, but I can give you some ideas of things
that we incorporate into punishment spankings.
Some things that could be done as a punishment within the punishment
could be
switching to a more severe instrument (as you mentioned), corner time
so the bottom can think about what she's done (and get even more
excited as she thinks
about the rest of the spanking she has coming :), being tied up for
wiggling around too much, or being gagged or spanked longer for
yelling or complaining.
Something else you could do is to make her stay in a humiliating
position and not move, punish her with a butt plug or an enema,
before, during or after the spanking.
Some rewards for good behaviour during a spanking could be to make
the spanking a little lighter in intensity, to pat and rub her head or
back (as you
mentioned), and to give her reassuring and postive verbal feedback.
Telling her
how proud you are of her for taking her spanking so well, etc.
Of course I have more ideas on how to punish her, because I ~like~
the punishment part. Lol >:) *BEG*
And that leads into the discussion on domestic discipline which has
been raised on this thread. What I think some people don't understand
is that alot of us bottoms really ~enjoy~ the punishment and
discipline that goes along with a good spanking. It feels good to be
loved and cared for by someone who takes the time and energy to make
sure you do what's right. Not that we can't be left to our own
devices, but even if we don't really ~need~ someone watching over our
shoulder, it's a comforting feeling to know that it's there. :)
So basically it's satisfying in several ways. It's erotic and
exciting to those of us that enjoy punishment spankings. (I know I do
:) It's just something in the way we're wired, like any fetish, you
don't always know why you like it, you just like it. Hearing the
phrase "I'm going to have to give you a good spanking" makes me
instantly aroused. The punishment aspect just ties in with the
spanking aspect so well for some of us bottoms.
It's also satisfying in the aspect that I mentioned earlier. The
feeling of being taken of. Of your stern, strict, but loving and
caring "Daddy" or husband taking you over his knee because you've been
naughty and deserve a good spanking.
I've seen an abbreviation mentioned somewhere in something that I
read that goes "MKIOBYIN", or something along those lines. It stands
for "My kink is ok, but yours is not". I probably got the letters
wrong, but I remember the meaning, and I think that is applies to this
situation.
As several people before me mentioned, this is about a consentual
spanking between two adults who have discussed their limits and
desires beforehand. As long as the bottom has consented to the
spanking and discipline,( and even wants it on some level) I see
nothing wrong with it. As long as this is what both people want, and
noone is hurt, (well not severely hurt anyway Lol) I think it's a
wonderful thing for two people to share and enjoy together. :)
Love and spanks, Fawne
sarah nada
Redder is Better wrote:
>I really do not believe that my previous post requires further
>clarification
>
>If you disagree, fine-but then I have some questions for you:
I think Pablo, Jen, and Mija did an admirable job of answering your questions,
so I'll try to be brief for a change.
>1) What if the "partner who sets the rules" breaks one of them ??? I'd
>be willing to bet that in a case like that it'd be a "do as I say not as
>I do" type of situation
Not applicable.
>2) I would pretty much agree that D/s, S & M, OTK or whatever name you
>want to give it involves trusting your partner-what happens when that
>trust is betrayed ???
Probably the same thing that happens when trust is betrayed in any intimate
relationship - people get hurt.
As a side note, dominance/submission, sadomasochism, and OTK spanking all fall
under the umbrella of BDSM. But they're distinctly different things, and liking
one doesn't imply liking either or both of the others. (For definitions of
these and scads of related terms, check out the Deviants' Dictionary
<http://www.queernet.org/deviant/frames.htm>.)
>What if there are financial consequences ??
Why should there be?
>3) How do you draw the line between "discipline" & "brutality" or abuse
>??
Pablo and Mija explained this very clearly, but IMO it can't be said too many
times... The difference is *consent*.
In your first post to this thread, you mentioned being involved in a spanking
relationship. Presumably that means you consent to being spanked. If your
partner spanked you without your consent, it would be abusive. The motive
behind the spanking (foreplay, catharsis, discipline, whatever) is neither here
nor there.
>Fantasy should NOT require abandoning "common sense".....
If all your fantasies are perfectly sensible, you must be bored to death. Of
course we weren't talking about fantasy to begin with, but to each their own.
MICK00WIL
Bravo to Mija for << Equal doesn't mean same >>
I've been trying to tell people this for a long time, not regarding spanking
but in all of societies' power issues!
Also, "fair" doesn't always mean "exactly equal"...like if I played
basketball against Michael Jordan that wouldn't be a "fair" game because our
skills aren't "equal" so to make it "fair" we'd have to make it "unequal"
with rules like....he couldn't jump...or my baskets counted for five points...
Maybe a bad example because Jordan would defeat me anyways... :-) but y'all
get the point!
thanks, Mick
p&e
Mija
Pardon me if this is getting tedious for people.
It's a favorite topic of mine and one I get too
little chance to really discuss.
I'm not sure why this bothers me some. But when this
comes up and people say they don't understand, and
then demonstrate that by indicating that they believe
that adults who allow themselves to be punished by
other adults are somehow lacking as people -- irresponsible,
thoughtless or whatever -- I wonder what prompts
that response. Because if anything, I've seen the
opposite. People who are very thoughtful, try
very hard to be responsible. And are really hard
on themselves when they fail to mean their own
expectations.
It reminds me of when I was talking to my mom about
why she wasn't close with a lot of her friends from
college anymore and she told me that it was because
they didn't respect her because she'd chosen to not
have a job outside the home. They felt it not only
reflected on her, but somehow brought them down too.
And they didn't understand how someone who could work,
was well educated would chose to subordinate their
career to home and family. They just refused to under-
stand she was doing what she wanted to at the time
(at this point, she's now retired from her second
of two very successful careers she had in her 40s and
50s).
I wonder sometimes if my consenting to be punished
by Pablo makes other people worry that someone
will think that's what spanking is all about for
everyone rather than just being about us. And that
that makes them want to portray it as a character flaw.
Rosie Chiques <rosie_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This is one of those areas that I just don't get. The
> way I see it is I'm an adult, my husband is an adult.
> I screw up, he screws up. I figure that's a result of
> a condition I call being human and the whole purpose
> of screwing up is to learn and grow as an aforesaid
> human. If he were to punish me in any way shape or
> form for screwing up, I'd be resentful as holy hell
> about it and by the same token I would never punish
> him for screwing up.
<nod> I see that. It may not be a question of
understanding, so much as a case of it being different.
You see for me, it isn't the spanking that's really
the charged part for me. (I mean, it has a charge,
but that isn't the core.). For me, it's the idea
that Pablo *can* punish me whenever he thinks I deserve
it. That he, as Jen puts it, takes the time to find
out how I'm doing and hold me accountable, that's part
of the charge in our relationship.
In our life, I'm pretty responsible. So is Pablo.
I'm much better at long-term planning than he is
(travel plans are my thing -- and I love doing it).
But my personality is such that I have a hard time
with consistant day-to-day stuff and am easily
overwhelmed when things start feeling like their
off-track. Pablo is very good at creating systems
that simplify our life and detail oriented enough to
keep track of how things are going an pull them back
on course when they start spinning out of control.
The spankings are part of it. A really important
part. I guess part of it is that I do feel I deserve
to be punished sometimes. But the other thing is that
they draw a line under the action for me, make me stop
thinking of being in some sort of hole. After being
punished (whether by spanking or something else), I
feel new, like I'm starting fresh and it's easier to
focus.
I know we've said it before (as has Jen) but we're
all really different. I'm good at a lot of things
(I keep my head in crisis very very well, if I do
say so myself). But for the most part, I'm not into
being in control.
A friend on ASS / SSS (who sadly no long posts) once
discussed this with Pablo and me at some length. She's
into spanking from a sexually submissive side. Very
erotic and sensual, power exchange only in the bedroom.
And here I was trying to explain consentual non-consentuality
for real life stuff to her. And suddenly she said "I
get it -- it's like driving."
I was like, huh? And she said "I hate to drive. I'm
a good driver, but would rather someone else drove.
And if I have a friend and they like to drive, I'm
happy for them to do all the driving they want to. And
when I'm in the car with them, I trust them to get us
their safely and don't care how fast we go or what
route we take. I'm willing to read the map, look for
road signs, whatever they ask me to do. Because they're
driving me. If they needed me to, I could drive myself...
I could even drive their car. But so long as they want
to, I'd just as soon not."
And that is sort of what Pab and my relationship is like.
If he didn't want to, I could look after myself. I could
look after him too if he wanted or needed me to. But so
long as he's willing and happy to take care of me, I like
it. And he likes it. The is equality and balance. Just
not sameness.
Oh, and it isn't an excuse to get spanked. If it was,
we wouldn't play very often. Months and months can
go by with me not deserving any punishment for anything.
Peace,
Mija - who is sorry for such a long post, but glad for a
chance to say some stuff that's been on my mind a while.
PS. Please e-mail mij...@spoiledbrat.com
Michele
not okay, and that's concerning.
IMO, disciplinary spankings can push a lot of people's buttons,
particularly women's, because they appear to be at odds with ideas of
female autonomy and empowerment. In particular, fiction that focuses
on disciplinary spankings sometimes mirrors stereotypes about women
(we can't manage money, eg) and antiquated ideas about marriage and
relationships between men and women (women should be subservient to
men in marriage, ie).
But as Sarah, Pab and Mija have pointed out, fundamental to any kink
is consent. And consent means that people have made a conscious choice
and embraced a specific kink and/or type of relationship. IMO, we're
most powerful when we make good choices for ourselves, ones that come
from a self-aware place. Mija has a made a choice that she feels is
good for her. You don't have to understand that choice. You don't have
to like it. You certainly don't have to embrace it yourself.
However, it's a good thing, when faced with a kink that bothers you,
to remember that other folks may be having a similar reaction to
whatever relationship/spanking style/kinky activity works for you. And
we could tell each other that the kinks we don't like are silly, bad,
disgusting, etc. But in doing so we'd damage this NG. IMO, it can take
a lot of bravery, honesty and willingness to risk to talk about
spanking and how it resonates with us, individually. The more we are
dismissive, mocking or contemptuous of other people's choices, the
less willing people will be to share their experiences and desires
within s.s.s.
And that would be a bad thing.
Michele
ILSA LASLOW
>comes up and people say they don't understand, and
>then demonstrate that by indicating that they believe
>that adults who allow themselves to be punished by
>other adults are somehow lacking as people -- irresponsible,
>thoughtless or whatever -- I wonder what prompts
>that response. Because if anything, I've seen the
>opposite. People who are very thoughtful, try
>very hard to be responsible. And are really hard
>on themselves when they fail to mean their own
>expectations.
Dear Mija,
Maybe that is your experience, that people try hard to be responsible and are
hard on themselves when they fail to meet their own (and not the spanker's?)
expectations. And maybe for someone like that a spanking is a welcome relief
from an overactive "guilt gland."
But that's not what these domestic discipline stories that Rosie Chiques
complained of are about. They are not about someone doing his or her damndest
to be responsible, falling short of a lofty goal and then needing a spanking to
make them feel better.
The stories are about people who ARE irresponsible, immature and unable to
satisfactorily run their own lives until the spanker steps in as deus ex
machina and miraculously solves the spankee's attitude problem by "laying on
hands."
In my case I can enjoy reading those DD stories even though it is completely
removed from my real life. Just like Rosie, I would greatly resent the
assumption that I am to be spanked for offenses where hubby, who certainly does
screw up too, would get off scott free. In fact that is one of the major flaws
I see in any kind of domestic discipline where only one partner gets spanked.
It's just not true that the other partner never does something equally
deserving of a spanking, and just what is the recourse when he/she does?
I can respect the Spencer Plan where both partners are equally liable to be
spanked for real life offenses. I still think it's irrelevant in my life. But
unlike Rosie I can enjoy a DD story because what the heck, the description of
the spanking itself is fun to read.
While I understand your analogy to those who criticized your Mom for choosing
to stay home and not use her education towards a career when her children were
growing up, I think the analogy does not hold up. In their case they were
unfairly criticizing a reasonable choice based on the values that mattered to
your Mom.
But that's not the same as criticizing the typical spankee in a DD story,
because the typical spankee in a DD story is incapable of making his or her own
mature and responsible decisions. In fact, when I roleplay that sort of scene,
I refer to the character I am playing as Mrs. Ditz, the gal who can't resist
buying more stuff even if it is way over budget, can't drive home without a few
beers in her foolish gut, can't refrain from outrageous flirting with other men
at her husband's office picnic...ditzy, stupid behavior that warrants a
spanking. Now, if you'd like to remedy that impression, it would be great if we
could see a story about someone who fell short of a high goal and needed the
spanking to feel better about him or herself. But please realize, the spankees
in the DD stories we get to read are guilty as charged.
ILSA LASLOW
SG
Mija wrote:
<<It reminds me of when I was talking to my mom about why she wasn't
close with a lot of her friends from college anymore and she told me
that it was because they didn't respect her because she'd chosen to not
have a job outside the home. They felt it not only reflected on her, but
somehow brought them down too. And they didn't understand how someone
who could work, was well educated would chose to subordinate their
career to home and family. They just refused to under- stand she was
doing what she wanted to at the time (at this point, she's now retired
from her second of two very successful careers she had in her 40s and
50s).>>
Many kudos to your mom for following her heart and not working outside
of the home!!!!!
Hmm, I do wonder if those 'college friends' have ever heard of the word
retirement, ha! But seriously, I do understand that your mom didn't
officially 'retire', but instead, wanted to care for her home and
family. Bravo!!!
As for me, I am 32 and would like to NEVER work again. I may end up
opening my own business once I marry and this would be major WORK, but
my business model would also bring me great pleasure.
SG
Pablo
>In my case I can enjoy reading those DD stories even though it is completely
>removed from my real life. Just like Rosie, I would greatly resent the
>assumption that I am to be spanked for offenses where hubby, who certainly does
>screw up too, would get off scott free.
But if it's merely an *assumption*, then I think you'd be
more than entitled to resent it. If such an agreement were
properly negotiated and consented to, then in principle I'm
not sure there'd be anything wrong with it. It might be
lacking some balance, but in the end it's not exactly what
people *do* that's right or wrong; it's whether it's what
they both want, and what works for both of them
The fact that you'd resent it means it wouldn't work for
you, natch, but that *needn't* make it wrong for everyone.
And maybe, maybe, the other partner wouldn't get off 'scot
free' after all. People deal with screwing up in different
ways, and getting some sort of external correction from
another person isn't the only way of *not* getting off scot
free. Nor is it necessarily the *best* way for someone to
not get off scot free.
>In fact that is one of the major flaws I see in any kind of
>domestic discipline where only one partner gets spanked.
>It's just not true that the other partner never does something equally
>deserving of a spanking, and just what is the recourse when he/she does?
I'd quibble with the word 'deserving' here. Obviously
there's no ultimate moral arbiter here who decides whether
any of us 'deserves' a spanking, or any other consequence.
As adults, we decide that for ourselves, or, within the
context of a consenting relationship, we might decide that
for a partner. Ultimately they're the same thing.
But rather than talking about someone 'deserving' it, I'd
prefer to think about what's right for them. What they need
and want. What works for them. If spanking works for one
person but not another, then it wouldn't seem to make any
sense to impose some sort of ersatz symmetry for the sake
of a false sense of balance.
Where there *does* need to be symmetry is in consent and
respect and communication. Maybe 'balance' is a better word.
I agree with you that there'd be problems in a relationship
if some sort of discipline was *imposed*, in a way which
didn't seem to be equal for both. The problem there would be
a failure of negotiation and a lack of clarity in the issue
of consent.
Maybe a couple of examples.
One of the first rules that Mija and I had (it's really the
closest we've come to anything having been imposed by me)
is that she doesn't smoke. There are all sorts of reasons
why I don't want her to smoke, and they're reasons I think
I can argue for logically, and make a good case. Because of
that, it would be entirely unfair and ridiculous if I then
went ahead and smoked myself. It would make a mockery of the
whole thing, and she'd be perfectly entitled to feel really
let down. It wouldn't mean I somehow 'deserved' a spanking,
but that rule for her would be seriously weakened.
On the other hand, there have been times when Mija and I have
agreed on a specific bedtime for her. The reasons for *this*
I also can argue logically for, and at the times we did that
it was the right thing for her. But that doesn't necessarily
mean that the same rule need apply to me. Not because I'm
somehow above such rules, but because I'm a different person,
with different habits, and different needs and wants. Mija
tends to do her best work early in the day. I tend to work
best later in the day. So a one-size-fits-all rule would be
silly. What works for her isn't what works for me.
But *whatever* the rules and/or expectations are, and however
they're different for each partner, the crucial thing is that
they be right for each, and properly negotiated and consented
to.
Pablo
"Live your beliefs and you can turn the world around."
Pablo and Mija's Treehouse: http://www.thetreehouse.net
SG
Rosie wrote:
<<Needless to say domestic discipline stories just don't float my
boat.>>
Domestic discipline stories are my idea of heaven on earth! If anyone
reading this has any to share, please do asap!
Hmm, I've never touched on the consentual/nc aspect in the stories that
I've written, well, in maybe one I did, in Devils Night.
It's more like I assume that the reader knows the deal when reading
about my bubbly heroines antics and the discipline she receives from her
husband.
SG
Rosie Chiques
>You mentioned you know of ways to get a spanking...
do >tell us a bit more!
>Inquiring minds want to know.
>
>Thanks.
>Pianoman
Why Pianoman, you devil you!
Okfine, one surefire way that always works. I wear a
low cut tank top that shows off my rather titillating
tattoo which is strategically placed titillatingly and
my dear sweet hubby being of the male persuasion can
never resist it. He is just so damned easy.
ILSA LASLOW
I did not mean to imply there is anything wrong for with the consensual
agreement between you and Mija. My point was that I do not see that it could
work for me. I'm a switch. It would be tit for tat...different rules might
apply to each person, but spanking privileges for both..or no way in hell would
it happen. I would never agree to an arrangement where HE was the only one to
be spanked either.
But my main quibble is with the DD stories as so many of them are written. They
are fun to read. They can even turn me on. But they do portray the spankee,
most usually a woman, as pretty impulsive,willful and immature. They drag out
every old stereotype about women not being competent to take care of themselves
without hubby's "helping hand." Furthermore, in the stories, there's usually no
mention of consent, in fact, the letters NC, non-consensual, are sported across
most of these stories. So they do not reflect your reality but an imaginary
situation that I would not care to be part of.
Don't think this sort of story doesn't work itself into the minds of many of
the men who IM me every day and proceed to make some pretty insulting
assumptions. First, I think my profile on AOL makes it pretty clear that I am a
switch. But the first question I get from so many of these men is, "Who spanks
you?" And the second question is, "What do you get spanked for?" An automatic
assumption is made: I'm the woman so I must get spanked for cause.
I'm not saying people shouldn't write DD stories exactly the way they wish but
it should be recognized that stories of that sort do influence and set up
mischievous assumptions in the minds of the not-too-bright.
As a matter of fact just a few days ago a young man of 32 popped up on my
screen and wanted advice on spanking his girlfriend. Big red flag: it was NOT
to be consensual. Apparently the girlfriend verbally abuses him and he strikes
out physically. He said to me he is tired of the fistfights and if he spanked
her he'd get her to calm down and be "more of a man with her."
I told him that what is going on right now between them is abuse, and if he
were to spank her without her consent (general or specific) then that would be
further abuse. But, but, this genius stammered, he sees stories all the time
about men spanking their wives and it's okay and it fixes the situation. Well,
guess which stories he was reading?
I told him, do not confuse someone's sex fantasy with the way to solve your
relationship problems..you are in an abusive situation, get help or get out. I
don't know how well I got my point across because then he disappeared on me.
Probably he was disappointed that I didn't agree he should just grab his woman
and give her a John Wayne style whuppin.
So Pablo, your situation with Mija doesn't bear much resemblance to the stories
that I find titillating but dangerously stereotypical. I'm sorry if either of
you felt attacked. Not my intention.
ILSA LASLOW
Rosie Chiques
IMO, it can take
a lot of bravery, honesty and willingness to risk to
talk about
spanking and how it resonates with us, individually.
The more we are
dismissive, mocking or contemptuous of other people's
choices, the
less willing people will be to share their experiences
and desires
within s.s.s.
<<<<<<<<
Excuse me Michele. At no time did I say Mija's kink
is "not ok", nor was I "dismissive, mocking or
contemptuous of other people's choices". I talked
"about spanking and how it resonates with" me.
Nor did I see anything where anyone else was saying
Mija's kink was not Ok.
Your lecture's pretty annoying.
Michele
<rosie_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>
>IMO, it can take
>a lot of bravery, honesty and willingness to risk to
>talk about
>spanking and how it resonates with us, individually.
>The more we are
>dismissive, mocking or contemptuous of other people's
>choices, the
>less willing people will be to share their experiences
>and desires
>within s.s.s.
>
><<<<<<<<
>
>Excuse me Michele. At no time did I say Mija's kink
>is "not ok", nor was I "dismissive, mocking or
>contemptuous of other people's choices".
I didn't claim that you, specifically did.
> I talked
>"about spanking and how it resonates with" me.
>
>Nor did I see anything where anyone else was saying
>Mija's kink was not Ok.
"IMHO, "discipline" in consenting adults is utter nonsense...."
I dunno. This doesn't sound particularly respectful of someone else's
kink, but YMMV.
>
>Your lecture's pretty annoying.
I don't find your annoyance concerning.
Michele
Rosie Chiques
>>>>>>>>
and yet
to me the occasional and well-written *story* about
domestic discipline
can make for a compelling basis for fantasy. (Again,
I'm talking
about me here).
<<<<<<<<
Well, it's like this, I really enjoyed Lurking
Dragon's Melody series and I'm liking this new one too
but I just went past the part about her buying the
boots and being punished with the boots and all that.
Now, the part about her getting spanked in every part
of the house with a different instrument I just loved
that one and have had a fantasy about that my own
personal self. Lurking Dragon does come up with some
fabulous spanking scenarios. So I just filter out the
punishment part and enjoy the good stuff.
BTW I've really enjoyed your stores.
Pablo
>I did not mean to imply there is anything wrong for with
>the consensual agreement between you and Mija.
Ilsa,
That's not how I'd read what you wrote - so my apologies
if I implied that you implied it. <smile>
I suppose I just read a certain bemusement about the whole
discipline thing which seemed centred on a version of it
which needn't be true for everyone. It's something I've
ranted about before, so it's easy for me to key into that.
There's a *lot* of misunderstanding (especially amongst
newbies - as you rightly point out) about how this works,
and how it *can* work.
>My point was that I do not see that it could work for me.
>I'm a switch. It would be tit for tat...different rules might
>apply to each person, but spanking privileges for both..or no
>way in hell would it happen. I would never agree to an arrangement
>where HE was the only one to be spanked either.
<nods> That's more than cool.
>But my main quibble is with the DD stories as so many of them are written. They
>are fun to read. They can even turn me on. But they do portray the spankee,
>most usually a woman, as pretty impulsive,willful and immature. They drag out
>every old stereotype about women not being competent to take care of themselves
>without hubby's "helping hand."
<nods> Point definitely taken.
>So Pablo, your situation with Mija doesn't bear much resemblance
>to the stories that I find titillating but dangerously stereotypical.
>I'm sorry if either of you felt attacked. Not my intention.
No, not attacked, and definitely no apology needed. In any
event, this is a very good and useful thread, and any excuse
to discuss issues as often misunderstood as these is worth
it, IMO.
Pab.
CrimsnKid6
>In fact that is one of the major flaws
>I see in any kind of domestic discipline where only one partner gets spanked.
>It's just not true that the other partner never does something equally
>deserving of a spanking, and just what is the recourse when he/she does?
In a story that fully explored the DD relationship, I'd expect there to be
some form of recourse in a one-way spanking relationship for times when the
disciplinarian/spanker needs some form of behavior modification/discipline for
his/her behavior--although presumably not a spanking.
Also, there should be some sort of recourse if the spankee, who's given a
*general consent* to accept corporal punishment based on his/her partner's
judgement, is unfairly punished--which could happen, no matter how wise and
mature the disciplinarian is supposed to be, because the spanker is human too.
Most of the DD stories don't deal with the concept of *spanker fallibility,*
there's a rather facile assumption that the dominant partner (in terms of
discipline, anyway) doesn't make misjudgements or behave negatively--including
possibly abusing the consent.
I tend to assume that there ARE some *fail-safes* in effect, but in any
particular story they're not shown because they're not needed--that is, the
spanker is behaving properly and the spankee has indeed *earned* his/her
chastisement.
<snip>But that's not the same as criticizing the typical spankee in a DD story,
>because the typical spankee in a DD story is incapable of making his or her
>own
>mature and responsible decisions. In fact, when I roleplay that sort of
>scene,
>I refer to the character I am playing as Mrs. Ditz, the gal who can't resist
>buying more stuff even if it is way over budget, can't drive home without a
>few
>beers in her foolish gut, can't refrain from outrageous flirting with other
>men
>at her husband's office picnic...ditzy, stupid behavior that warrants a
>spanking. Now, if you'd like to remedy that impression, it would be great if
>we
>could see a story about someone who fell short of a high goal and needed the
>spanking to feel better about him or herself. But please realize, the
>spankees
>in the DD stories we get to read are guilty as charged.
Yes, they generally are "guilty as charged," but I'm not overjoyed if
they're shown as predominantly *childlike* (unless it's a rejuve story, of
course)--I personally like them to be shown as intelligent, generally competent
people who have certain weaknesses/behaviors that require being dealt with via
spanking. (*Childlike* behavior during the punishment is understandable to a
degree, of course.)
IMHO it's important to understand that these DD stories involve justice,
caring and consensuality (even if it's a *general consent* to accept the
disciplinarian's judgement) in their plot lines.
Although they're based on assumptions that likely would not prove true in
most people's relationships (even spanko types), I find some of them very
compelling as fantasies.
And who knows...??
H.I.A.W.B.,
--C.K.(Crimson Kid)
Redder Is Better
over her lap & receiving that paddle), & I believe that for most adults
that's most likely the same.....
Rosie Chiques
>>>>>>>>>>
No, not attacked, and definitely no apology needed. In
any
event, this is a very good and useful thread, and any
excuse
to discuss issues as often misunderstood as these is
worth
it, IMO.
Pab.
<<<<<<<<<<
OK, using your analogy, say my husband and I decide
he'll give me a discipline spanking whenever I stay up
past my bedtime. So in the future I'd stay up past my
bedtime for the following reasons:
A) because there's something I think is important for
me to sacrifice my sleep for. As an adult, that's
something I'd decide and as an adult would accept
being tired the next day as the consequences of
staying up. So to spank me for that would be
disrespectful.
B) because I want a spanking in which case I am
manipulating my husband into spanking me which is
inherently dishonest.
C) because I'd think I could get away with it which is
again inherently dishonest.
In a nutshell there we go. As Ilsa says, in the DD
stories that's about it. If there's a D, say a woman
stays up past her bedtime but doesn't realize what
she's doing,then she's an idiot but I don't buy it. If
you or Mija have got an E or even an F, I'd be
interested in hearing it.
I do agree with Ilsa about the way women are portrayed
in these stories. It's very offputting and as she
mentioned potentially damaging. I mean it's not like
we don't have bad enough press as it is.
Jen
Okay, I'm horning in again here, because I can answer this one from
experience. I have a bedtime rule, and there's a reason. I can't function
when I'm sleep deprived, and if I didn't have the rule, I'd always be sleep
deprived. I'd get about three or four hours of sleep half the time, and I'd
be falling asleep at work or while driving. There have been times when I've
been so wrapped up in whatever I'm doing (on the computer or wherever) that
I've completely lost track of time. It's not that I'm an idiot or anything,
I just get a little too focused. The rule stays in the back of my mind now
so that I keep track of time a lot better than I used to. For whatever
reason, the bedtime rule makes me get enough sleep most of the time. There
are times, for emergencies or whatever that I can stay up, or if I can't get
to sleep for whatever reason, Greg only asks that I TRY. If it's a matter
of only twenty minutes or so past my bedtime, or even a half an hour, that's
no big deal. If I need to stay up a lot longer and actually be seriously
sleep deprived for something I know in advance, I only have to call and let
him know and he'll give me a break for that night.
I know, that probably sounds petty and seriously controlling, but believe
me, Greg has had to deal with me in person when I've been seriously sleep
deprived, and that was NOT a good thing at all. That's when he decided I
needed the bedtime for work nights only (which isn't unreasonable, I only
end up getting six and a half hours of sleep on those nights as it is),
because I have a tendency to run myself ragged otherwise. Since I've had
the bedtime rule, I function much better, and I see the need for more sleep,
so I'd say that the rule has been beneficial. It works for US, and that's
what counts. If I ever get to the point where I don't NEED the rule (and
that HAS happened with a few of my old rules<BG>), then it would just fall
by the wayside. I know myself pretty well though, and I don't see that
happening any time soon with this rule. LOLOL
Jen
CrimsnKid6
>OK, using your analogy, say my husband and I decide
>he'll give me a discipline spanking whenever I stay up
>past my bedtime. So in the future I'd stay up past my
>bedtime for the following reasons:
>A) because there's something I think is important for
>me to sacrifice my sleep for. As an adult, that's
>something I'd decide and as an adult would accept
>being tired the next day as the consequences of
>staying up. So to spank me for that would be
>disrespectful.
Then, in a RL DD relationship, I suppose you'd discuss this with your
husband and give him your reasons for wanting or needing to stay up later than
usual. (Admittedly, this scenario does asssume that he *knows best* and can
make this judgement better than you can.)
If he doesn't agree with your reasoning, you'd presumably either have to
accept him overruling you (and go to bed on time) or refuse to (and stay up
late), accepting a disciplinary spanking as its consequence.
>B) because I want a spanking in which case I am
>manipulating my husband into spanking me which is
>inherently dishonest.
One spouse trying to get another to do what he/she wants by less than direct
means isn't that uncommon in a marriage IME; call it "manipulating" if you
want, but it happens frequently.
IMHO this wouldn't be much different from point-blank asking for a
disciplinary spanking--but it might make it easier for your husband to truly
wallop you good and hard since it's an *earned punishment* rather than a
request. (It wouldn't be inconceivable for you to want or need the punishment
only subconsciously, and *carelessly* stay up to late in order to receive it.)
>C) because I'd think I could get away with it which is
>again inherently dishonest.
Well, if there's an agreed-upon punishment paddling for you staying up late
(past your bedtime), then your husband's obligated to deliver it if he's aware
of the transgression; IMHO this *general consent* runs both ways, and he
shouldn't be ignoring a spanking-required violation.
Of course, if he somehow doesn't find out that's different.
Spouses occasionally being involved in minor deceptions of one another is
IME not that uncommon either, although I'll agree that it's hardly commendable
behavior.
>In a nutshell there we go. As Ilsa says, in the DD
>stories that's about it. If there's a D, say a woman
>stays up past her bedtime but doesn't realize what
>she's doing,then she's an idiot but I don't buy it.
Maybe she's careless, or distracted, or subconsciously wants or needs a good
sound spanking.
>I do agree with Ilsa about the way women are portrayed
>in these stories. It's very offputting and as she
>mentioned potentially damaging. I mean it's not like
>we don't have bad enough press as it is.
Being egotistical, self-centered, boorishly insensitive and emotionally
stunted--i.e., a *typical male*--I wouldn't know about all that. (We all have
"bad press," just different kinds, IMHO.)
However, I can lift heavy objects...
Seriously, I believe that DD relationships are lots of fun to read (and
write) about as fantasies but that they're likely to be difficult (but not
necessarily impossible) for the vast majority of people (even spankos) to
implement--especially if they're of the *one-way* variety and the punitive
spankings aren't reciprocal for both partners.
The *one-way* route does assume that the spanker has some form of
superiority (smarter, more mature, more self-disciplined, whatever) over the
spankee, it seems to me, which is why I can't envision it working for most
couples. (Of course I mean *true* DD, wherein the disciplinary spankings are
primarily punitive as opposed to erotic playacting.)
OTOH, I'm certainly not going to challenge the veracity of posters (like
Mija and Pablo) who state that they've made it work in their relationship.
I would consider them to be in a decided minority with their ability to make
a RL *one-way* DD situation effective, however...
H.I.A.W.B.,
--C.K.(Crimson Kid)
Pablo
> The *one-way* route does assume that the spanker has some form of
>superiority (smarter, more mature, more self-disciplined, whatever) over the
>spankee, it seems to me, which is why I can't envision it working for most
>couples.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Maybe better at certain
things. Certainly not better in some absolute sense.
But this is one reason I like the Odysseus/sirens analogy so
much. There's no way the story could be interpreted as saying
that Odysseus's men are superior to him. What happens is that
he consensually gives power to them for a while, because he
knows that there's a situation in which their having that
power can be good for him.
In fact, in the story, the men are clearly *inferior* in the
literal sense that he's their captain.
> OTOH, I'm certainly not going to challenge the veracity of posters (like
>Mija and Pablo) who state that they've made it work in their relationship.
>
> I would consider them to be in a decided minority with their ability to make
>a RL *one-way* DD situation effective, however...
One thing I would definitely add about what Mija and I do,
is that it's never *easy*. It takes a huge amount of careful
communication, negotiation, trial and error. We still get it
wrong plenty of times, and are still learning.
Pablo
>OK, using your analogy, say my husband and I decide
>he'll give me a discipline spanking whenever I stay up
>past my bedtime. So in the future I'd stay up past my
>bedtime for the following reasons:
Well, to begin with, if you'd both apparently decided
this, but you yourself had every intention of not
following the rule, then there's an immediate problem
of communication. Why would you agree to something that
you had every intention of not following? That sort of
manipulativeness would lead things to fail very quickly.
>A) because there's something I think is important for
>me to sacrifice my sleep for. As an adult, that's
>something I'd decide and as an adult would accept
>being tired the next day as the consequences of
>staying up. So to spank me for that would be
>disrespectful.
Absolutely, I agree. If a rule had been agreed, though,
it would make sense within such an agreement for this to
be discussed, and for a relaxation of the rule to be
agreed for a while. Remember that I'm talking about a
situation where you've *consented* to the rule in the
first place, so it's ultimately your decision as much
as your partner's. If you want to renegotiate the rule
for whatever reason, that's your prerogative.
>B) because I want a spanking in which case I am
>manipulating my husband into spanking me which is
>inherently dishonest.
Yup. And this is the sort of thing that would kill the
agreement stone dead. If you had every intention of doing
this when you agreed to the rule, then what you'd have is
not at all the sort of thing that Mija and I do. If we
have a rule, it's something that's meant, by both of us,
to be followed. Otherwise we wouldn't agree to it.
>C) because I'd think I could get away with it which is
>again inherently dishonest.
Of course. Again, this would be manipulating the situation,
and would cause it to fail very quickly. Unless, of course,
your partner was expecting (and wanting) a situation in
which you'd violate the rules so that he could punish you.
Again, that would be a very different situation from the
one that Mija and I have.
>In a nutshell there we go.
Indeed. What I hear you saying pretty clearly is that a
domestic discipline relationship of the sort that Mija and
I have just wouldn't be right for you. Which is more than
cool, natch. But the situations you're puzzled by just don't
apply to Mija and me, because that's not how our relationship
is set up.
Hope this helps.
Pablo
Rosie Chiques
>>>>>>>
deprived. I'd get about three or four hours of sleep
half the time, and I'd
be falling asleep at work or while driving. There
have been times when I've
been so wrapped up in whatever I'm doing (on the
computer or wherever) that
I've completely lost track of time. It's not that I'm
an idiot or anything,
I just get a little too focused. The rule stays in
the back of my mind now
so that I keep track of time a lot better than I used
to. For whatever
reason, the bedtime rule makes me get enough sleep
most of the time. There
a
>>>>>>>
This kinda answers it. So, what you're saying is you
need an external limiting force because for whatever
reason you don't have an internal limiting force for
this situation.
Sorry, Pab, I know you've been patient and I don't
mean to be obtuse but your explanations get too
convoluted for my limited brain capacity. I mean I am
an older model along the 64K variety.
AND the DD stories still get pretty obnoxious.
Jen
> Jen says:
>
> >>>>>>>
>
> deprived. I'd get about three or four hours of sleep
> half the time, and I'd
> be falling asleep at work or while driving. There
> have been times when I've
> been so wrapped up in whatever I'm doing (on the
> computer or wherever) that
> I've completely lost track of time. It's not that I'm
> an idiot or anything,
> I just get a little too focused. The rule stays in
> the back of my mind now
> so that I keep track of time a lot better than I used
> to. For whatever
> reason, the bedtime rule makes me get enough sleep
> most of the time. There
> a
>
> >>>>>>>
>
> This kinda answers it. So, what you're saying is you
> need an external limiting force because for whatever
> reason you don't have an internal limiting force for
> this situation.
Yep, for some reason I'd tend to just stay sleep deprived instead of
catching up on sleep, if Greg hadn't decided that I needed a rule for it. I
control most things myself, but that's just one thing that didn't matter
much to me before. Greg doesn't micromanage, he just makes rules for big
things. I had a budget rule for a few weeks at one point, but I got that
under control fast, so that rule just sort of died off. I did have a rule
back when I worked retail, that I sort of asked for, because it was
something that kept me from doing my job. I'm afraid of heights, and one of
my jobs was to get up on a ladder occasionally. So he made a rule that if I
didn't get up on the ladder when I needed to, I'd get spanked. I never did
get spanked for that one. <VBG>
Jen
Pam
>
>
>Rosie Chiques
Lots of things get pretty obnoxious at some time on the newsgroup.
Pam
Pianoman
> Okfine, one surefire way that always works. I wear a
> low cut tank top that shows off my rather titillating
> tattoo which is strategically placed titillatingly and
> my dear sweet hubby being of the male persuasion can
> never resist it. He is just so damned easy.
>
Thanks Rosie.... again, I'm glad others can relate to
what a perspective I've always had whereby spanking and
flirting go together... along with cuddling and playing and
kissing and eroticism.... and nary a (real or pretend)
sound of one person being upset with the other is part of
any of this.
To any spankos out there who find the "punishment" aspects
of this feitsh to not be their cup of tea.. just remember
it's optional.
Pianoman (who finds spankos to be rare and does not
like the thought of them being scared away from the
scene unnecessarily)
adrian...@hotmail.com
>When I give a spanking I sometimes want to punish bad behavior that's
>going on during the spanking itself. By the same token, I often want
>to reward a bottom who's doing an especially good job of helping
>things along.
This can work for many different kinds of spanking, when the
mood is relatively playful, when you're role-playing something
like a serious punishment, or with a serious disciplinary
scene itself. I don't do real dominance play for its own sake,
but I sometimes use secondary punishments like this as part of
another scene...where my top (note the word - NOT my dom) punishes
me for kicking him, or for trying to take the hairbrush away
from her. This can be hot for us when the original spanking have
nothing at all to do with even pretended punishment dynamics.
>I'm curious about how others approach this. I realize this is very
>personal and has more to do with individual style and sensitivity than
>with rigid mechanics. No doubt the seemingly telepathic communication
>that can occur between top and bottom is exactly the nebulous thing
>that makes the difference between a great session and a poor one. But
>I think it also may be possible to pin down at least a little.
It's not telepathy. Anyone who plays with me knows there is a very,
very narrow range of things that I will accept as "punishment."
Insults are right out. Most places a person can be hit are going to
get a strong negative reaction, too. But a few strokes on my legs
make me very contrite, very fast. There are similar limitations on
what I'll tolerate being punished *for*. Is a spanking supposed to
be so unbearably painful I can't cooperate with it? When I fail to
cooperate with it, does my top punish me for it? How severely? Is
that going to make me feel wonderfully helpless, or just sorry for
myself? The top has to know me very well.
>Probably the most frequent punishment-in-a-punishment I've seen
>referred to in the spanking literature is announcing the addition of
>extra strokes, Unfortunately, that works best for a limited rage of
>spanking styles, where the exact duration or number of strokes is
>specified in advance and known to the bottom. I don't give that kind
>of spanking very often, I find.
>
>Another possibility (and something that I do sometimes) is to switch
>to a more severe implement, but that usually entails a somewhat
>jarring break in rhythm, so I don't usually resort to it that unless I
>want to punish some particularly egregious behavior (or the other
>implement is very close at hand).
Punishing legs is much more flexible. You don't have to put down
the ruler and pick up a cane, deliver the punishment strokes, then
pick up the ruler again. You can deliver the punishment strokes
on the uncooperative kicking legs with the ruler in your hand, one
or two hard strokes on each thigh, then go back to spanking the
bottom. Generally, striking lower will make it hurt more (but
stay away from the knees.) Some people find the calves harder to
take than the back of the lower thighs, or the front of the thighs,
or the outer thighs...but any of those targets are much, much more
painful than the buttocks. You can include specific warnings and
threats, or just vague advice to cooperate before you lose patience.
>Both these approaches have the disadvantage of being a bit "all or
>nothing" and overt. That may be just the ticket if the bottom is
>doing something deliberately disobedient (and when "obedience" on the
>part of the bottom is called for), but isn't well suited to nudging
>the bottom toward or away from some behavior. Furthermore, these
>kinds of measures seem to me to presuppose that the spanking itself is
>a punishment, that more strokes or stronger implements necessarily
>make things less pleasant. That's true only sometimes. In any case,
>I'd prefer to have a subtler and more nuanced way of communicating,
>something that allows a tight coupling between the my state of mind
>and the bottom's immediate experience.
Other times, I *do* cooperate. I squirm and express my gratitude.
Talking is good - please and thank you and that's good and show me
more and yes please. And petting - either sexual petting, or the
kind of petting you do to encourage a good dog. A firm hand at the
back of the neck makes many people feel cooperative (it frightens a
few people out of all proportion, so check that it's ok with your
partner.)
>What I often do is leave a sensitive area (typically the back of the
>legs, depending on the bottom in question) relatively untouched (and
>unwarmed up) and available for harder "penalty strokes" when I want to
>communicate some degree of displeasure. This has the advantage of
>allowing me to adjust the severity along a pretty wide range while not
>requiring a break in the overall flow of things.
>
>As for little rewards, I personally find that they vary quite widely,
>depending to a large extent on the needs of and my relationship with
>the particular bottom. Probably my most universal "reward" is little
>back rub that signals appreciation. It feels good (and provides a
>nice contrast to the sensations a little further south), isn't overtly
>sexual or modesty offending, and needn't interrupt the business at
>hand. And of course, withholding that kind of reassuring touch for a
>little while can be a subtle but effective punishment in its own
>right.
>
>I suspect most all spankers engage in least some in-spanking
>rewarding and punishing (certainly I respond this sort of thing when I
>switch). So, any other ideas that can be put into words? What do
>other tops here do? Also, what kinds of things do you tend to reward
>and punish?
I like rewards a bit higher up, talking to me or stroking my hair.
The worst punishments I've taken have been pinching, biting, and
attacking my back, and arms
Adrian Turtle
sidewalk radical
bum...@yahoo.com
Arlington) wrote:
>During a genuine punishment he told me sternly to hold the position and said it
>wouldn't be over until I did. He wasn't threatening more of anything, just
>pointing out that's it was senseless delay it. We both hated it and will
>probably never do another genuine punishment spanking.
<nodding> Punishment spankings aren't fun, however much fantasizing
about them may be.
Of course, there's no rule stating that a hard spanking is necessarily
for punishment. When you're in the mood, it may be quite erotic. ;>
>During fun spankings, he doesn't become more severe if I resist, and he is
>likely to stop if I resist for long. If I want more, I have to be good. If I
>want harder, I have to ask for it. Then I get what I ask for and suddenly
>don't want it, and he teases me with that. I think he likes that part even
>more than he likes the spanking.
ROFL! I can think of a couple of Tops that this description would
apply to quite well. :>
Reply to this address; mail sent to the address in
From: will disappear into a black hole. :)
bum...@yahoo.com
Better) wrote:
>IMHO, "discipline" in consenting adults is utter nonsense....
You know.... When you assume you know what's nonsense for the whole
world because it is for you, you... assume. And we all know what
assumptions lead to. :/
Discipline in consenting adults isn't nonsense at all. I agree that a
lot of what spankos call "discipline" is actually erotic play, but the
real thing exists, and some of us find it quite helpful. (In my case,
it's played a major part in my getting control of a life-threatening
illness, believe it or not.)
ILSA LASLOW
>lot of what spankos call "discipline" is actually erotic play, but the
>real thing exists, and some of us find it quite helpful. (In my case,
>it's played a major part in my getting control of a life-threatening
>illness, believe it or not.)
Would you be willing to tell us more about that? Maybe it would help some of us
who absolutely do not believe in spanking as adult discipline to understand.
Clearly, what we read in the DD stories is more fantasy than reality.
ILSA LASLOW
Redder Is Better
I'm talking about real life, NOT fantasy...in r/l if one receives
punishment for some of the scenarios I've read here & elsewhere, IMHO
you are venturing into the area known as abuse. There is nothing erotic
about abuse (although some individuals with a low self-esteem might
mistake this abuse as "an expression of love & caring").
Redder Is Better
medically beneficial...
Michele
Better) wrote:
>Well, bum-up, I respond as follows:
>
>I'm talking about real life, NOT fantasy...in r/l if one receives
>punishment for some of the scenarios I've read here & elsewhere, IMHO
>you are venturing into the area known as abuse.
Disciplinary spankings would be abusive =for= you if you were on the
receiving end, but apparently they are not to Bum-up, Jennifer or
Mija. I tend to think that they know themselves better than you know
them, eh?
> There is nothing erotic
>about abuse (although some individuals with a low self-esteem might
>mistake this abuse as "an expression of love & caring").
Disciplinary spankings tend not to be erotic to those that want them.
That's sort of the point.
If punishment arouses, then the behavior that triggered the spanking
won't change. Disciplinary spankings are meant to modify behavior.
So getting off on a punishment spanking would defeat the purpose,
since it's likely that people will repeat actions that will lead to
sexual arousal/gratification.
Many/most vanilla folks, looking at non-disciplinary spankings, would
think that they're abusive, too. There's (some measure of ) pain,
potentially bruises, welts and other marks. A lot of M/F spanking
play, erotic or not, mirrors ideas about relationships between men and
women that many would label misogynistic at worst.
Someone watching me be spanked might well think I was being abused.
I've been known to cry, to struggle, to swear at my spanker, to beg
him to stop, because he's "hurting me."
(and that's during a non-disciplinary spanking, btw <smiling>).
The most giggly and fun spankings have led to the most long-lasting
marks.
Only I know what's going on in my head. Only I (and my spanker) know
what I've consented to. I get to define for myself what is good for
me. What I want and need. We all get to make those determinations =for
ourselves=. But I don't get to define for =you= what you should want
and need, what is right or wrong for you.
Michele
Molly B
<snip of excellent post>
>Only I know what's going on in my head. Only I (and my spanker) know
>what I've consented to. I get to define for myself what is good for
>me. What I want and need. We all get to make those determinations =for
>ourselves=. But I don't get to define for =you= what you should want
>and need, what is right or wrong for you.
>
<applauding and presenting Michele with a bouquet>
well said
Molly B
p&e
Don A. Landhill
> >I'm not sure why this bothers me some. But when this
> >comes up and people say they don't understand, and
> >then demonstrate that by indicating that they believe
> >that adults who allow themselves to be punished by
> >other adults are somehow lacking as people -- irresponsible,
> >thoughtless or whatever -- I wonder what prompts
> >that response. Because if anything, I've seen the
> >opposite. People who are very thoughtful, try
> >very hard to be responsible. And are really hard
> >on themselves when they fail to mean their own
> >expectations.
>
> Dear Mija,
>
> Maybe that is your experience, that people try hard to be responsible and are
> hard on themselves when they fail to meet their own (and not the spanker's?)
> expectations. And maybe for someone like that a spanking is a welcome relief
> from an overactive "guilt gland."
>
> But that's not what these domestic discipline stories that Rosie Chiques
> complained of are about. They are not about someone doing his or her damndest
> to be responsible, falling short of a lofty goal and then needing a spanking to
> make them feel better.
>
> The stories are about people who ARE irresponsible, immature and unable to
> satisfactorily run their own lives until the spanker steps in as deus ex
> machina and miraculously solves the spankee's attitude problem by "laying on
> hands."
>
Many DD stories are strongly influenced by "Catagory Romance" story
conventions, IMO. In many of these stories the spankee (usually a
woman) is irresponsible, immature, spoiled, bratty, or some
combination of things, and the relationship is not one between equals
in the sense that Mija and Pablo (for example) describe their
relationship as being. This is a convenient cliche or convention in
story writing, but any real relationship in which one person was as
consistantly deserving as soem of these stories show and didn't grow
up/change fairly shortly would be doomed IMO.
My DD story 'John and Analise' tries to show a soemwhat less ditzy
spankee, but her main offense is still to get drunk (or at least
tipsy) and obnoxious at a family gathering. Not the end of the world,
but she doesn't seem exactly mature, either. Still that story
features a classic 'he lays down the rules" scene in which he promises
what he will do, as well as says what he expects her to do, and he
does get her consent to the DD regime. And besides, this IS fiction.
Writing a story about a complex, equal but different, realistic DD
relationship like the ones that several postrs to this thread have
describe would be IMO much harder to do well. Perhaps that is why
some of the pablo/mija stories are so very powerful? (Besides, they
write well)
I have never been in a DD relationship myself -- indeed I have never
been in a non-electronic spanking relationship -- all of my limited
physical spankign experience has been at play parties -- and I don't
think one would work for me, or for most people. I am convinced by
soem of the posters here that it can work for soem people.
Obviously such a relationship is risky, and can easily go wrong -- but
then, so can any relationship where people have deep emotions
involved.
> In my case I can enjoy reading those DD stories even though it is completely
> removed from my real life. Just like Rosie, I would greatly resent the
> assumption that I am to be spanked for offenses where hubby, who certainly does
> screw up too, would get off scott free. In fact that is one of the major flaws
> I see in any kind of domestic discipline where only one partner gets spanked.
> It's just not true that the other partner never does something equally
> deserving of a spanking, and just what is the recourse when he/she does?
>
That is a problem in dipicting such a relationship, even in fiction.
If I were attemptign to portray a realistic and fair DD relationship i
would have to show some kind of consequences to the "dominent"
partner, perhaps by role-reversal, perhaps by soemthing else. I would
also have to show that partner as a particularly decent, sensible
person, not perfect, but pretty good, or the relationship would be far
too likly to fail.
> I can respect the Spencer Plan where both partners are equally liable to be
> spanked for real life offenses. I still think it's irrelevant in my life. But
> unlike Rosie I can enjoy a DD story because what the heck, the description of
> the spanking itself is fun to read.
I have seen DD stories where both partners are liable to spankings
when they mess up, but not very many of them.
>
> While I understand your analogy to those who criticized your Mom for choosing
> to stay home and not use her education towards a career when her children were
> growing up, I think the analogy does not hold up. In their case they were
> unfairly criticizing a reasonable choice based on the values that mattered to
> your Mom.
>
> But that's not the same as criticizing the typical spankee in a DD story,
> because the typical spankee in a DD story is incapable of making his or her own
> mature and responsible decisions. In fact, when I roleplay that sort of scene,
> I refer to the character I am playing as Mrs. Ditz, the gal who can't resist
> buying more stuff even if it is way over budget, can't drive home without a few
> beers in her foolish gut, can't refrain from outrageous flirting with other men
> at her husband's office picnic...ditzy, stupid behavior that warrants a
> spanking. Now, if you'd like to remedy that impression, it would be great if we
> could see a story about someone who fell short of a high goal and needed the
> spanking to feel better about him or herself. But please realize, the spankees
> in the DD stories we get to read are guilty as charged.
>
> ILSA LASLOW
I agree, and I would enjoy reading more of that kind of stoiry too,
but it is much harder to write well, it is, in fact, reaching for one
of those higher levels, IMO.
I do think that the comments by "Redder is Better" which started this
sub-thread were disrespectful of those who have a true DD
relationship, and have made it work, such as those who have posted to
this thread. Perhaps RiB did not know that any such realtonships
existed that were not abusive, and it is surely true that many abusers
try to cover themselves by claiming to be engaged in 'traditional DD'.
but the difference is pretty claer, IMO, and very large.
-Don A. Landhill
bum...@yahoo.com
Already did a year or so ago, but I don't mind reposting the story if
people want to see it. It is long, though....
The short version is -- I'm a diabetic with an eating disorder. The
combination is deadly; a genuine eating disorder is similar to drug
addiction and at least as hard to get control of. Diabetes is a
chronic, lifelong disease for which there's no cure, at least not at
present. If you keep it under control, you live longer and don't
loose such valuable things as your brain (cerebral hemmorhages and
strokes), eyes (diabetic retinopathy, which I have), kidneys (kidney
failure, which so far I've avoided), arms or legs (from neuropathy,
circular problems, and infections that don't heal).
Keeping it under control requires sticking to a consistent and rather
strict eating pattern, taking medicines on time, exercising -- doing
everything my eating disorder interferes with. Among other things,
people with my kind of disorder are constantly fighting denial, often
not only about the eating disorder, but about anything associated with
it. I have to make a concerted effort to even keep aware of anything
involving my health. If I don't, I simply don't think to do what I
have to do to stay healthy, and alive. While I can make that effort
for a time, I can't manage it indefinitely without some outside help.
I've got a disciplinarian that holds me accountable for doing the
things I have to do to keep healthy, and who canes me when I don't.
I like being spanked, but I don't like being caned, and I hate being
caned with a heavy cane. When I know that's what I'll face every time
I do something I shouldn't, I usually don't break the rules, and that
makes the difference.
In my case, the disciplinarian isn't someone I play with, or am
involved with sexually or romantically. For one, I can't mix
discipline and play because it triggers a huge negative emotional and
mental reaction. (I know, not everyone feels that way.) :) For two,
because I'm a spanko, I take extra precautions not to let discipline
be fun or erotic.
My first disciplinarian was a man, a therapist and personal coach who
was into caning. He did a wonderful job, but after about a year he
got overcommitted and needed to move on. My current disciplinarian is
a woman, and I think I'll stick to women from here on out because I
find I don't need to exercise the same precautions around her. (As
far as I can tell, I'm not at all bisexual.)
If you have questions, feel free to ask. It's hot out here tonight,
though (California in July), and I'm too tired to write more. :)
bum...@yahoo.com
Go over to Google, Luv, and do a search for an article posted by me a
year ago, titled "Disciplined".... I'm talking about real life too.
:)
bum...@yahoo.com
>receiving end, but apparently they are not to Bum-up, Jennifer or
>Mija. I tend to think that they know themselves better than you know
>them, eh?
One would hope... ;>
In Luv's defense, I will point out that victims of abuse (be it
physical, emotional, or mental) often don't realize that they're being
abused. I was an abused child, and it took a good many years and a
considerable amount of help for me to be able to recognize certain
things as abusive. Since I grew up with them, they were just normal
to me, even though damaging.
However, Luv is making the mistake of assuming that just because every
kind of physical punishment he can imagine an adult receiving would be
abusive, that it all actually is. I'm a very imaginative person, and
I would never assume that everything I could imagine on any subject
covered all the possibilities.
>Disciplinary spankings tend not to be erotic to those that want them.
>That's sort of the point.
>
>If punishment arouses, then the behavior that triggered the spanking
>won't change. Disciplinary spankings are meant to modify behavior.
>So getting off on a punishment spanking would defeat the purpose,
>since it's likely that people will repeat actions that will lead to
>sexual arousal/gratification.
Bingo. BTW, most of us who receive disciplinary spankings don't
"want" them any more than Luv would. We need them. In some cases
(like with me), we go to considerable effort to get them. Neither my
first disciplinarian nor my current disciplinarian was looking for me;
I went out and found them.
>Someone watching me be spanked might well think I was being abused.
>I've been known to cry, to struggle, to swear at my spanker, to beg
>him to stop, because he's "hurting me."
>(and that's during a non-disciplinary spanking, btw <smiling>).
>The most giggly and fun spankings have led to the most long-lasting
>marks.
Ah, a pain slut after my own heart. ;> My favorite spankings have
ranged from long, but relatively gentle hand spankings to hard doses
of a painfully stingy leather strap. I tend to laugh a lot during a
spanking; it just somehow feels =right= in a totally silly, but
wonderful way, to be over someone's lap or bent over a bed with my
butt in the air. ;> (No, I'm =not= talking about anything
disciplinary here. Far from it.) :>
>Only I know what's going on in my head. Only I (and my spanker) know
>what I've consented to. I get to define for myself what is good for
>me. What I want and need. We all get to make those determinations =for
>ourselves=. But I don't get to define for =you= what you should want
>and need, what is right or wrong for you.
Yep. :) Thanks for this.
ILSA LASLOW
>things I have to do to keep healthy, and who canes me when I don't.
Okay, so in your case, the disciplinarian serves the purpose that a therapist
and perhaps also a twelve-step sponsor might serve for someone else. Seems to
me that as long as someone else knows and you are accountable in any way,
caning or no caning, it becomes a lot easier to stick to the regimen.
I don't have an eating disorder but I am diabetic also. I ignored it and was
apathetic about it for a long time, and then I got a wake up call when I needed
to have minor surgery last summer and the doctor nearly refused to go through
with it because my sugar was so high.
Getting that scare (and I brought it down fast so that the surgery went ahead
as planned) was a very good wake up call. My "disciplinarian" is the blood
glucose meter, if that comes up high, I know I have to do something about it.
>From the viewpoint of the disciplinarian, another thing I have often found
difficult to understand is, the disciplinarian obviously is someone who enjoys
spanking. If the person to be disciplined takes that first spanking or caning
or whatever as a wake up call and follows the rules from then on, the
disciplinarian is out of a "job."
Maybe it's not the case in your situation but I have often wondered if that
couldn't lead to a little subtle undermining of the disciplinee's resolve, so
that the spankings could continue. Anyone have any thoughts on this question? I
would not expect it to be a problem in a relationship that included playful or
erotic spankings too because I would think most people would much rather spank
for fun than for punishment. But if that is the sole basis of the relationship,
it will come to an end if the disciplinee completely shapes up.
ILSA LASLOW, wondering
Jim
>
> I don't have an eating disorder but I am diabetic also. I ignored it and was
> apathetic about it for a long time, and then I got a wake up call when I needed
> to have minor surgery last summer and the doctor nearly refused to go through
> with it because my sugar was so high.
>
Ilsa--
Let me put on a different hat here.
Diabetes is a *really* bad actor. The main reason is that it attacks the blood
vessels--billions of "small vessels" and these are too small and numerous to fix.
There ain't no fixing it once the damage is done. That means dead kidneys, dead
heart, dead eyes, dead extremities (that they have to cut off).
The one and only thing that blocks all of these is keeping your blood sugar as
tightly regulated as possible. Believe me, it may not seem so now, but the bother
is definitely worth it.
Love,
--
Jim
<http://www.herwoodshed.com> Bethany's Woodshed
<mailto:wvto...@aol.com> ABCD Webmasters
**************************************************************
..this curious & pathetic fact of life: that when parents are old &
their children grown up, the grown-up children are not the persons
they formerly were; that their former selves have wandered away,
never to return again, save in dream-glimpses of their young forms
that tarry a moment & gladden the eye, then vanish & break the
heart. - "Memorial to Olivia Susan Clemens" Mark Twain
bum...@yahoo.com
>>I've got a disciplinarian that holds me accountable for doing the
>>things I have to do to keep healthy, and who canes me when I don't.
>Okay, so in your case, the disciplinarian serves the purpose that a therapist
>and perhaps also a twelve-step sponsor might serve for someone else. Seems to
>me that as long as someone else knows and you are accountable in any way,
>caning or no caning, it becomes a lot easier to stick to the regimen.
Yes, I think that's a very good analogy, although it isn't complete.
I've had a twelve-step sponsor before (couple of them in Overeaters
Anonymous), and a therapist. Both helped, but the truth is that, once
I'd talked all the issues out (which I needed to do) and figured out
what I needed and wanted, I =still= needed the extra "push" to keep me
doing it, a push that I couldn't talk myself out of. (Read, bullsh*t
myself out of.)
This provides it. :)
>I don't have an eating disorder but I am diabetic also. I ignored it and was
>apathetic about it for a long time, and then I got a wake up call when I needed
>to have minor surgery last summer and the doctor nearly refused to go through
>with it because my sugar was so high.
Oh, my.... That is serious. I'm =very= glad you got the wake-up call,
and suspect Rick is gladder, because you're going to be around for a
good bit longer than you would otherwise.
>Getting that scare (and I brought it down fast so that the surgery went ahead
>as planned) was a very good wake up call. My "disciplinarian" is the blood
>glucose meter, if that comes up high, I know I have to do something about it.
I have one of those too. It helps, but only if I'm using it, and if
I'm spacing out about my health, I don't use it. :/
>>From the viewpoint of the disciplinarian, another thing I have often found
>difficult to understand is, the disciplinarian obviously is someone who enjoys
>spanking. If the person to be disciplined takes that first spanking or caning
>or whatever as a wake up call and follows the rules from then on, the
>disciplinarian is out of a "job."
>Maybe it's not the case in your situation but I have often wondered if that
>couldn't lead to a little subtle undermining of the disciplinee's resolve, so
>that the spankings could continue. Anyone have any thoughts on this question? I
>would not expect it to be a problem in a relationship that included playful or
>erotic spankings too because I would think most people would much rather spank
>for fun than for punishment. But if that is the sole basis of the relationship,
>it will come to an end if the disciplinee completely shapes up.
That could definitely happen. In my case, I saw the possibility and
took some precautions from the outset.
First, I started this when I was involved with someone (my first
spanker), and getting plenty of "just for fun" and erotic spankings.
After that relationship ended, I played around some, met people, and
made sure I was getting the spankings I wanted and enjoyed elsewhere.
(And meeting my emotional needs, a significant issue for most of us
women, I think.) :> I didn't need to be disciplined to meet my other
spanking needs -- they were being met elsewhere, and much more
pleasantly.
The same is true of both of my disciplinarians -- the former one was
engaged to a fellow spanko, and the current one is married to a fellow
BDSMer. While they both like what they do, they don't need me to meet
their needs.
Second, I made sure that the punishments themselves were unpleasant
and stayed that way. It helps that both of my disciplinarians have
understood what I was doing and cooperated.
My former disciplinarian and I still are in touch, email each other,
and get coffee or lunch ever so often. I think we both like not
having the specter of a caning I won't enjoy between us; we've got
other things in common and can enjoy being friends without worrying
about it.
Gina
"Michele" <book...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:o6tliugmr4r5au5a6...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:46:51 -0500 (CDT), LuvF...@webtv.net (Redder Is
> Better) wrote:
>
> > There is nothing erotic
> >about abuse (although some individuals with a low self-esteem might
> >mistake this abuse as "an expression of love & caring").
>
> Disciplinary spankings tend not to be erotic to those that want them.
> That's sort of the point.
Okay, I have to respond here. Common sense, if you *want* to be
disciplined, you desire it. It fills some sort of need. Want:
definition-to feel a need for, to desire. True punishment:
definition-penalty inflicted for an offense is not a matter of *want*. Even
masochists don't want punishment, they want pain. It's the pain they
desire, need.
You may submit to something knowing it's good for you, like being punished,
but I doubt you would want it.
*wanting* punishment to correct a behavior is, IMO, a realization one comes
to, when you don't have the power with in you to change the behavior so you
*choose* to do something you don't want, but feel you have to in order to
correct the behavior.
I feel it's important to make this distinction. Some people may choose
punishment spanking as a means to correct a behavior, but I doubt if they
want it. What they *want* is for the behavior to be modified. I'm sure if
they could do it on their own, there'd be no reason for the punishment
spanking. On the other hand, they might desire a spanking to fill an
emotional need, then it is not punishment.
Pet
Rosie Chiques
>>>>>>>>
Second, I made sure that the punishments themselves
were unpleasant
and stayed that way. It helps that both of my
disciplinarians have
understood what I was doing and cooperated.
<<<<<<<<
So, how do you accept discipline from someone who
doesn't love you? And how does someone who doesn't
love you give you discipline?
Discipline means "to teach" and is a loving act. I
wouldn't bother disciplining someone I didn't love
even with exhaustive negotiating and all that because
to either give or receive it involves love.
>From your postings it sounds like your relationship is
sorta semi-professional with your disciplinarians so
wherein is the love?
Albert Terego
...
>
> I've got a disciplinarian that holds me accountable for doing the
> things I have to do to keep healthy, and who canes me when I don't.
>
> I like being spanked, but I don't like being caned, and I hate being
> caned with a heavy cane. When I know that's what I'll face every time
> I do something I shouldn't, I usually don't break the rules, and that
> makes the difference.
>
> In my case, the disciplinarian isn't someone I play with, or am
> involved with sexually or romantically. For one, I can't mix
> discipline and play because it triggers a huge negative emotional and
> mental reaction. (I know, not everyone feels that way.) :) For two,
> because I'm a spanko, I take extra precautions not to let discipline
> be fun or erotic.
Hmm, interesting, Thanks a lot for posting that explanation -- you're
describing a kind of relationship that I've never experienced, and so
you've got me wondering whether and how I'd be able to participate in
such a setup (I switch, though I tend to play mostly as a top).
If it were someone I cared about and if I were persuaded that such an
arrangement truly was in the person's best interests (though that would
take some convincing), I probably could play the disciplinarian role
in such a relationship. Obviously, I'd be getting different things out
of it than I do when I spank someone for mutual fun - it would more be
along the lines of the satisfaction of doing right by a friend than
anything else. I doubt I'd find punishing someone for real to be
sexy or fun, especially if it were someone who I cared about (which
is the only way I could imagine being in such a relationship in the
first place). I'd certainly not seek out such an arrangement with
someone just for the sake doing it, though if a friend asked me to
do it (and my requirements were satisfied), I probably would. I'd want
it not to be someone I play with, for all the same reasons you mention.
I'd almost surely put some limits on things though. Most importantly,
I'd have to be really, really convinced that it was in the person's
best interests, that a whatever we've agreed to would really be
effective as a punishment, and that there's some way to test whether
it's working. Also, I'd want the behavior that triggers punishment
to be something I'm personally not emotional about - I'd want to make
sure that I'm never in the position of feeling that I'm acting out some
kind of revenge. (The kind of behavior you're punished for would be
OK, since you're the only one affected by it, but something like "being
inconsiderate" would be shaky ground, since I could be the victim of it).
I'd probably not want to be in the position of even deciding whether
the person needs punishment -- I'd probably expect them to come to me
each time they need it, and I'd want to be able to trust them enough
to take their word for it if they said they didn't.
Again, I suspect doing this would be a completely non-sexy thing for
me (other than the pleasures of admiring that particularly compelling
part of the anatomy). It would be more like if a friend asked
me to host their website or help fix their house wiring or something.
Still, I can imagine being more reluctant to do this for a man than
for a woman, but I don't know if I'd do it for a woman, either.
As for being disciplined myself in such a relationship, I'm pretty sure
it wouldn't work at all for me. I don't have any "uncontrolled"
behavior problems that I'm aware of and want to change, so I'm speaking
hypothetically here, but I'm still skeptical. First, when I do bottom,
I tend to like it pretty hard. I'm not sure that there are safe ways to
physically punish me that I wouldn't, on at least some level, enjoy.
Also, I find many of the trappings of punishment - -the idea of having
no choice, the little rituals, etc. -- to be very erotic in their
own right, at least in my fantasy and play life.
Thanks for posting your explanation. It's been very thought provoking,
and I'm glad you found an arrangement that's helping you.
A.T.
bum...@yahoo.com
<rosie_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>So, how do you accept discipline from someone who
>doesn't love you?
In my case, I'm not sure how anyone can accept it from someone who is
in love with them, although I know you might not mean that by "loves
you". I was abused as a child; I can't handle anyone who is or might
be a lover/romantic interest acting as an authority figure. My play
partners and friends do not discipline me.
>Discipline means "to teach" and is a loving act. I
>wouldn't bother disciplining someone I didn't love
>even with exhaustive negotiating and all that because
>to either give or receive it involves love.
If you mean friendship here, I built a fairly strong friendship with
my former/first disciplinarian. I think the same is happening with
the current one, although she's only been disciplining me for a few
months, so it's early yet.
I'm puzzled, however, by your association of a loving/close friendship
and teaching. I've had teachers and then professors all my life who
were not close personal friends, and I never felt that they couldn't
teach because of it or were less effective that way. (In many cases,
I think they were more effective because they had some emotional
distance.)
In any event, what I need from a disciplinarian isn't so much teaching
(I know what I need to do) as accountability and a reminder. I'm not
looking for a Dom/me -- I am quite capable of setting my own goals. I
just need someone to help me enforce them/provide quick and sure
consequences for violating them.
>>From your postings it sounds like your relationship is
>sorta semi-professional with your disciplinarians so
>wherein is the love?
It is professional with the current one -- she's a proDomme, although
I'm not exactly her typical client. :) Since what I need is
essentially a professional service, that works well for me. IMHO it's
no different than paying a therapist. (Perhaps that doesn't work for
you either, though.)
Remember, this relationship isn't there to meet my emotional needs,
although I certainly don't mind having a concerned and decent person
doing this for me. I get my emotional (and erotic) needs met
elsewhere. So love, whether you mean erotic or friendship, isn't what
I need from a disciplinarian.
bum...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>Hmm, interesting, Thanks a lot for posting that explanation -- you're
>describing a kind of relationship that I've never experienced, and so
>you've got me wondering whether and how I'd be able to participate in
>such a setup (I switch, though I tend to play mostly as a top).
Being able to participate in something like this requires a rather
different mindset than Topping or bottoming for fun/erotic play, or
than doing D/s, does. I'm a switch myself, more bottom than Top but
not that much more. I know I could function as a disciplinarian for
someone who needs what I need, but that isn't because I enjoy Topping
for play. It's because I understand the need, and would take my job
seriously.
Ilsa Laslow compared what I was doing to a sponsor in a twelve-step
program, and I think that's a pretty good analogy. I compared it to
hiring a therapist tonight, but I think "personal coach" is closer to
the mark.
>If it were someone I cared about and if I were persuaded that such an
>arrangement truly was in the person's best interests (though that would
>take some convincing), I probably could play the disciplinarian role
>in such a relationship. Obviously, I'd be getting different things out
>of it than I do when I spank someone for mutual fun - it would more be
>along the lines of the satisfaction of doing right by a friend than
>anything else. I doubt I'd find punishing someone for real to be
>sexy or fun, especially if it were someone who I cared about (which
>is the only way I could imagine being in such a relationship in the
>first place).
Maybe.... As long as you're convinced that the need is real and the
person you are disciplining both needs and consents to the
relationship, though, I think you might find it easier to do the job
if you aren't too emotionally involved in the outcome. A lot of
sponsors in twelve step programs (Alcoholics Anonymous and the like)
have noted this, and plenty of "helping" professionals (therapists,
doctors, coaches, whatever) can also testify to the importance of
remaining objective when you're trying to help someone.
>I'd certainly not seek out such an arrangement with
>someone just for the sake doing it, though if a friend asked me to
>do it (and my requirements were satisfied), I probably would. I'd want
>it not to be someone I play with, for all the same reasons you mention.
<nodding>
>I'd almost surely put some limits on things though. Most importantly,
>I'd have to be really, really convinced that it was in the person's
>best interests, that a whatever we've agreed to would really be
>effective as a punishment, and that there's some way to test whether
>it's working. Also, I'd want the behavior that triggers punishment
>to be something I'm personally not emotional about - I'd want to make
>sure that I'm never in the position of feeling that I'm acting out some
>kind of revenge. (The kind of behavior you're punished for would be
>OK, since you're the only one affected by it, but something like "being
>inconsiderate" would be shaky ground, since I could be the victim of it).
>I'd probably not want to be in the position of even deciding whether
>the person needs punishment -- I'd probably expect them to come to me
>each time they need it, and I'd want to be able to trust them enough
>to take their word for it if they said they didn't.
This is essentially what is going on with me. My disciplinarian isn't
responsible for setting my goals and the rules I adhere to -- I am.
(Okay, my doctor and I are together.) :> She also isn't responsible
for seeing through me if I'm not truthful with her. My one, critical
responsibility in this whole thing is to tell the truth when I break
the rules.
Although being an addict or a compulsive makes you very good at lying
to yourself, I've found that I can short-circuit this tendency by
firing off an email immediately when I break a rule, or as soon as I
realize I have. That way, I can't rationalize it to myself or her.
Since I'm very good at rationalizing, this is important.
>Again, I suspect doing this would be a completely non-sexy thing for
>me (other than the pleasures of admiring that particularly compelling
>part of the anatomy). It would be more like if a friend asked
>me to host their website or help fix their house wiring or something.
>Still, I can imagine being more reluctant to do this for a man than
>for a woman, but I don't know if I'd do it for a woman, either.
You certainly shouldn't feel obligated to say yes if asked. :)
On my side of things, it is non-sexual, as I've explained. For my
previous disciplinarian, I think it was as well. The real danger
there, for both of us, wasn't primarily erotic but emotional. As
things turned out, we have a lot in common and became rather good
friends. He had other reasons for needing to quit being my
disciplinarian, but I think it's just as well I found someone else.
It's a lot easier just being a friend with him. :)
My current disciplinarian is a proDomme who admits to being an "equal
opportunity sadist", but with me she's doing a job. The people she
loves are her husband and a couple of other submissives in her life,
not clients. While I'm a somewhat unusual client for her, she's doing
a good job of understanding what I need and providing it. On my side,
I can relax quite a bit more with her because she's female and I'm
just not wired to find women interesting like I do men. That makes it
easier to maintain the kind of mental attitude I need during a
session.
>As for being disciplined myself in such a relationship, I'm pretty sure
>it wouldn't work at all for me. I don't have any "uncontrolled"
>behavior problems that I'm aware of and want to change, so I'm speaking
>hypothetically here, but I'm still skeptical. First, when I do bottom,
>I tend to like it pretty hard. I'm not sure that there are safe ways to
>physically punish me that I wouldn't, on at least some level, enjoy.
>Also, I find many of the trappings of punishment - -the idea of having
>no choice, the little rituals, etc. -- to be very erotic in their
>own right, at least in my fantasy and play life.
This probably wouldn't work for you. I suspect it wouldn't for a lot
of adults; for an adult to need and benefit from a disciplinary
relationship seems to require that they have a funny combination of
character qualities. Most of the people I know of who are disciplined
are submissive, at least to some extent.
In my case, although I'm not at all submissive and am masochistic,
there is a form of corporal punishment I genuinely don't like.
Further, what I'm doing requires me to submit, not to someone else's
rules, but my own rules. I'm the one who set this up; when I'm caned,
I know as it's happening that I chose for it to happen. That
undercuts my rather strong adult/Toppish reaction against allowing
someone to do something to me that I don't enjoy.
>Thanks for posting your explanation. It's been very thought provoking,
>and I'm glad you found an arrangement that's helping you.
Sure. :)
Michele
>
>"Michele" <book...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>news:o6tliugmr4r5au5a6...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:46:51 -0500 (CDT), LuvF...@webtv.net (Redder Is
>> Better) wrote:
>>
>> > There is nothing erotic
>> >about abuse (although some individuals with a low self-esteem might
>> >mistake this abuse as "an expression of love & caring").
>>
>> Disciplinary spankings tend not to be erotic to those that want them.
>> That's sort of the point.
>
>
>Okay, I have to respond here. Common sense, if you *want* to be
>disciplined, you desire it. It fills some sort of need. Want:
>definition-to feel a need for, to desire. True punishment:
>definition-penalty inflicted for an offense is not a matter of *want*. Even
>masochists don't want punishment, they want pain. It's the pain they
>desire, need.
<rubbing hands with glee> Heh. You know I love discussions on
semantics and meaning. Thank you, Pet.
IMO, the need may dictate the want. And the desired result sometimes
forms the want, too.
>You may submit to something knowing it's good for you, like being punished,
>but I doubt you would want it.
I may want it to the extent that I think that the process will be good
for me. A personal, non-spanko example:
I wanted to have surgery to remove a recurrence of cancer. Did I want
to be in the hospital for 7 days, have major abdominal surgery, deal
with a healing belly, feel weak and tired? Nope. But I did want to do
whatever was in my best interests, medically. So for the same reasons
I want chemotherapy, even though I don't want needlesticks and the
side effects that come with treatment.
What I want is what I'm hoping to achieve through medical treatment.
So I want the treatment. IMO, the same may be true for folks who want
disciplinary spankings.
Or not :-)
Hope that makes sense.
Michele
Tony Elka
<book...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> What I want is what I'm hoping to achieve through medical treatment.
> So I want the treatment. IMO, the same may be true for folks who want
> disciplinary spankings.
Michele,
That's the best explanation I've ever heard for wanting what one needs
even if the experience is not especially enjoyable.
Sort of like a well-behaved youngster willingly eating their vegetables.
Tony
P.S. How are you feeling?
bum...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>What I want is what I'm hoping to achieve through medical treatment.
>So I want the treatment. IMO, the same may be true for folks who want
>disciplinary spankings.
Exactly, and very well put! Nuff said.
And let us know how you're doing when you feel like talking about it.
[HUG]
Michele
>In article <me20ju4s3elgsaaaj...@4ax.com>, Michele
><book...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> What I want is what I'm hoping to achieve through medical treatment.
>> So I want the treatment. IMO, the same may be true for folks who want
>> disciplinary spankings.
>
>
>
>Michele,
>
>That's the best explanation I've ever heard for wanting what one needs
>even if the experience is not especially enjoyable.
Thanks, Tony.
>
>Sort of like a well-behaved youngster willingly eating their vegetables.
Exactly :-).
>
>Tony
>
>P.S. How are you feeling?
Some days are better than others. It's been a bit of a roller coaster
ride, emotionally, since the surgery.
The surgery itself was a bust. I woke up to hear that the recurrence
wasn't actually in my rectum, but in my pelvic wall (the two areas are
so close to each other that they weren't distinguishable with either a
CT or PET scan). It isn't possible to surgically remove this growth,
because it's tangled up in blood vessels. And the two enlarged lymph
nodes, which are also cancerous, can't be surgically removed, either,
because they're too close to my aorta.
So I came home angry and scared- angry because I had my belly opened
to no purpose, and scared about what I'm facing, now.
I'm back on chemo- a triplet of three different drugs, and I'm having
some difficulty with side effects- mostly diarrhea. (funny how a
spanko has so many ass-centric health problems <g>). The good news is
that my tumour markers (blood tests that measure proteins that cancer
cells shed) are dropping, which means the chemo is working.
Despite the set back and all this scary, hard stuff, I'm still mostly
positive. I'm taking the entire summer off work, and focusing on
exercising, eating well, getting lots of rest, and being with people
who matter to me. Mike has been able to spend lots of time with me,
and most every day I've lain in his arms, sometimes crying, sometimes
laughing, always feeling loved. He is such a gift. Amazing what a few
postings to s.s.s. and a personal ad can bring into your life.
(and yesterday we indulged in some spanking and canoodling- the first
time since the surgery-- Yay!!).
And I've got tickets to see Cher in July, Neil Diamond in August (no
making fun of my musical taste, now <g>) and I'm taking a trip with my
sister in September. So there's lots of good stuff to look forward to.
And when I'm feeling sad and lonely, I try not to run away from those
emotions, but allow myself to be present for them, to honour them
(DLynn and Joni have taught me a lot about this) and embrace them.
When I'm feeling particularly alone, I wrap myself in an afghan made
by some truly wonderful women, most of whom I'll probably never meet,
and I feel their arms around me.
Then I take a deep breath and focus on now. Focus on all that's good
in my life and try not to anticipate and fear what may happen in the
future. I tend to my little garden, go for a walk, pray, listen to
music, read a book.
Because life is good. Really, really good.
Michele