Research -- How young?
Remus Shepherd
discomforting couple in it. I could ask my writerly friends questions about
the sex lives of young teens, but I thought that since I know you people,
and you know more about sex than anyone else ;), I'd throw the questions
at you.
My male protagonist is 16 years old. I could make him 17 or 18, but I'd
prefer him to be younger than that. He should be at the cusp of puberty,
when his sexual urges are strongest.
Due to the restrictions in his society, he has been handed a very young
girl and told that someday she will be his wife and he must not lay hands
on any other female. This girl is all for the idea, and she attempts to
seduce our young protag.
How young a girl is capable of seduction? Nabokov's _Lolita_ was 12,
but I'd like this girl to be younger, 6 to 8 if possible. But I don't want
her so young that sex presents a threat to her health. How young should
she be?
I know that pedophilia is a touchy subject around here, so I'd appreciate
just hearing short opinions addressed to me and no arguing with other
posters. :) I'm just writing a story and trying to get the ages correct.
... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
Indefensible Positions -- a story of superheroic philosophy.
http://indepos.comicgenesis.com/
Denny Wheeler
<re...@panix.com> wrote:
> I'm doing research for my next story, and I want to include a rather
>discomforting couple in it. I could ask my writerly friends questions about
>the sex lives of young teens, but I thought that since I know you people,
>and you know more about sex than anyone else ;), I'd throw the questions
>at you.
>
> My male protagonist is 16 years old. I could make him 17 or 18, but I'd
>prefer him to be younger than that. He should be at the cusp of puberty,
>when his sexual urges are strongest.
IMO, and IIRC, 16 is older than you want, given the 'he should be' up
above.
> Due to the restrictions in his society, he has been handed a very young
>girl and told that someday she will be his wife and he must not lay hands
>on any other female. This girl is all for the idea, and she attempts to
>seduce our young protag.
>
> How young a girl is capable of seduction? Nabokov's _Lolita_ was 12,
>but I'd like this girl to be younger, 6 to 8 if possible. But I don't want
>her so young that sex presents a threat to her health. How young should
>she be?
There are so *many* variables here, it's hard to give a sound answer.
And of course, I was never a young (nor old...) girl, so have no good
data for you.
But you're positing a society other than any here-now, so you can
design the mores of it to suit what you believe will work in your
story.
Questions: is the girl's attempted seduction within the bounds of
'normal' for that society?
How long until "someday"? (when she'll be his wife)
Answer those, and the related/similar questions which arise, and you
should have your answer.
Note that while a girl of (pulling numbers from the ether here) 8 or
so may be physically unready for such activity--to say nothing of
psychologically/emotionally--the girl in your story is not of our
world. Perhaps physical maturation--of at least some parts of the
body--happens more quickly there. Etc.
> I know that pedophilia is a touchy subject around here, so I'd appreciate
>just hearing short opinions addressed to me and no arguing with other
>posters. :) I'm just writing a story and trying to get the ages correct.
One hopes the folk here grasp the concept of *fiction*--and I'm
reasonably sure most if not all do.
-denny-
--
The test of courage comes when we are in the minority.
The test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority.
JustGB
This squicks me so badly that I couldn't possibly.....
Still, I would think you are not talking about the kind of brutishness
heard of in hillbilly country, or in the Caucasian Mountains, which
you could research for real. You want "to get the ages correct" which
somehow doesn't fit with your subject matter...... Again, my squicks
are getting in the way.
So, why not write the prose and assign the ages later. See if the
activity really is plausible for children. And I agree with Denny,
there's nothing much disconcerting about a 16 year old boy and sex.
JustGB
Elf M. Sternberg
> Nabokov's _Lolita_ was 12...
... and contributed exactly zero to her "seduction." Delores'
seduction was entirely in Humbert's mind. (He is considered the
canonical "unreliable narrator" anyway.) It isn't until much later in
the book that Delores figures out what's going on in Humbert's mind
and uses it against him, trading low-level fanservice and whispered
promises, but never quite putting out, to secure his help in running
away from her mother.
As I've said, I've never understood why "Lolita" became the
mangled popular icon it is: it is entirely a book about nasty,
self-serving, small-world people using one another for their brutish
and illegitimate ends. The only thing you can say about Delores Haze
is that she was emotionally crippled by her parents, but if you want
to give her any sense of agency and self-worth, then she was just as
much a perpetrator of the kind of vicious, petty, banalities only a
teenager could manage.
The book is a masterpiece of style and narration, but it
doesn't deserve the place in the canon of historical erotica
literature where it seems to have landed.
Elf
--
Elf M. Sternberg, Immanentizing the Eschaton since 1988
http://www.pendorwright.com/
"You know how some people treat their body like a temple?
I treat mine like issa amusement park!" - Kei
Elizabeth
As a little girl of 6, or 8, or 12 I had no desire nor clue about
seduction. I find the notion utterly bizarre and horrible that you
would even fictionalize such an occurrence. I was 21 when I first
engaged in seduction. That was the first time I actually ever sought a
sexual relationship with any body. When I was 6, 8, 12, 14, 16, 19,
20, I was busy growing up as a person in my own right. I did not
conceive of the idea that I would enter a sexual relationship just
yet. I had my first menstrual period at 12 and half, and began to wear
my first bra about then too - but these outer maturational signs were
not matched by a growing interest in sexual attractions nor sexual
desires. I had a boyfriend at 15 - 16 and had male friends from the
age of 2, but it never occurred to me or them to engage in sexual
play. But, anyway, that was just us.
-Elizabeth-
Michael Jørgensen
"Remus Shepherd" <re...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fegh6c$g30$1...@reader1.panix.com...
[snip]
> My male protagonist is 16 years old. I could make him 17 or 18, but I'd
> prefer him to be younger than that. He should be at the cusp of puberty,
> when his sexual urges are strongest.
WHAT? My sexual urges haven't ever diminished! They are as strong as ever,
and I'm close to 40 ;-)
[Sorry, couldn't resist it...]
-Michael.
Remus Shepherd
> > How young a girl is capable of seduction? Nabokov's _Lolita_ was 12,
> > but I'd like this girl to be younger, 6 to 8 if possible. But I don't want
> > her so young that sex presents a threat to her health. How young should
> > she be?
> As a little girl of 6, or 8, or 12 I had no desire nor clue about
> seduction. I find the notion utterly bizarre and horrible that you
> would even fictionalize such an occurrence. I was 21 when I first
> engaged in seduction. That was the first time I actually ever sought a
> sexual relationship with any body. When I was 6, 8, 12, 14, 16, 19,
> 20, I was busy growing up as a person in my own right. I did not
> conceive of the idea that I would enter a sexual relationship just
> yet. I had my first menstrual period at 12 and half, and began to wear
> my first bra about then too - but these outer maturational signs were
> not matched by a growing interest in sexual attractions nor sexual
> desires. I had a boyfriend at 15 - 16 and had male friends from the
> age of 2, but it never occurred to me or them to engage in sexual
> play. But, anyway, that was just us.
Let me rephrase, then. :)
At what age does a girl fantasize about being a princess, about kissing
a prince, and/or about being taken away on a white steed? My protag is a
Hero with a capital H, and this young girl is infatuated with him. She might
just be enticing him into romantic kisses, but it will look very different
from his pubescent point of view.
Mark...@gmail.com
> On Oct 10, 2:27 am, Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
> > I'm doing research for my next story
...
> > How young a girl is capable of seduction? Nabokov's _Lolita_ was 12,
> > but I'd like this girl to be younger, 6 to 8 if possible. But I don't want
> > her so young that sex presents a threat to her health. How young should
> > she be?
>
> > I know that pedophilia is a touchy subject around here, so I'd appreciate
> > just hearing short opinions addressed to me and no arguing with other
> > posters. :) I'm just writing a story and trying to get the ages correct.
> As a little girl of 6, or 8, or 12 I had no desire nor clue about
> seduction. I find the notion utterly bizarre and horrible that you
> would even fictionalize such an occurrence. I was 21 when I first
> engaged in seduction. That was the first time I actually ever sought a
> sexual relationship with any body. When I was 6, 8, 12, 14, 16, 19,
> 20, I was busy growing up as a person in my own right. I did not
> conceive of the idea that I would enter a sexual relationship just
> yet.
I'm with Elizabeth and JustGB on this. I'm having trouble finding a
way to express my reactions without totally going over the top...
Remus' question leaves me likening him to the Wintersmith in Terry
Pratchett's book of the same name - the character think's he's human
but has no idea what it involves...
Tom Allen
>
> As I've said, I've never understood why "Lolita" became the
> mangled popular icon it is: it is entirely a book about nasty,
> self-serving, small-world people using one another for their brutish
> and illegitimate ends.
Oddly, I figured that's *exactly why* it became so popular. After all,
they didn't have "reality TV" to watch back then.
--
Tom
http://tom-allen.livejournal.com/
http://vanillaedge.wordpress.com/
"I don't have multiple orgasms, myself. I am, however, known to be a
carrier."
Delila
>
> At what age does a girl fantasize about being a princess, about kissing
> a prince, and/or about being taken away on a white steed?
I fantasized at a young age (about eight). I had a huge crush on a pop star.
D.
Serene
> As a little girl of 6, or 8, or 12 I had no desire nor clue about
> seduction. I find the notion utterly bizarre and horrible that you
> would even fictionalize such an occurrence. I was 21 when I first
> engaged in seduction. That was the first time I actually ever sought a
> sexual relationship with any body. When I was 6, 8, 12, 14, 16, 19,
> 20, I was busy growing up as a person in my own right. I did not
> conceive of the idea that I would enter a sexual relationship just
> yet. I had my first menstrual period at 12 and half, and began to wear
> my first bra about then too - but these outer maturational signs were
> not matched by a growing interest in sexual attractions nor sexual
> desires. I had a boyfriend at 15 - 16 and had male friends from the
> age of 2, but it never occurred to me or them to engage in sexual
> play. But, anyway, that was just us.
As another datapoint, by age 10 I had had my period and was reading
porn, masturbating, and fantasizing really often about sex.
Serene
--
Spin the auto-sig generator, and she says:
"I never worry that all hell will break loose. My concern is
that only part of hell will break loose and be much harder to
detect." -- George Carlin
John Kuthe
I believe these fantasies probably begin as soon as the female child
is read (or otherwise entertained with) stories which idealize these
male/female relationship paradigms. IOW early childhood, 0-3 years
old.
Remember, the developing child hears, sees, and understands *much*
earlier than they are able to verbalize and act out.
John Kuthe...
Elf M. Sternberg
> Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
>
>> As I've said, I've never understood why "Lolita" became the
>> mangled popular icon it is: it is entirely a book about nasty,
>> self-serving, small-world people using one another for their brutish
>> and illegitimate ends.
> Oddly, I figured that's *exactly why* it became so popular. After all,
> they didn't have "reality TV" to watch back then.
But why did it become synonymous with the whole notion of the
child protagonist as "corrupt, compliant, and singularily knowing?"
It's a bit like _Leaving Las Vegas_ becoming the defacto standard by
which all stories about the pleasures of alcohol should be measured.
Elizabeth
Well, that may be so. My parents were very progressive and never read
these male/female relationship (princess rescued by hero) stories to
me. I didn't come across them until I was very much older and then
they never appealed to me. Oh, and we didn't have television.
-Elizabeth-
suzee
I think you're an anomaly in that regard.
sue
Elizabeth
Yes, probably so. Interesting though....
-Elizabeth-
GoldenMan54
farm faamily and was able to observe my young parent having interecourse
when ever. thus when I hit 11 years old, I was seduced by a 16 year old
aunt and outside oif the rememberance of my first cum, It was nothing,
But having four younger sisters and as one started puberty, I quickly
seduced her by tell her about my magic cream
that would stop her blood flow. I seduced 4 sisters and 24 female
cousins before getting a visit to the reform school While my magic creme
stopped the monthly blood flow, The magic cream produced a knocked up
pre-teen school girl which readily squealed on her male cousin. I read
now that eight year old girls now have pubic hair and 32A cup breasts.
I was reading a underground paper about a group of 6 year old girls
selling their snatch in India for some food to eat.
GoldenMan54
feel good around my cock. I have found that 99% of the girls I had when
I was a teen ager, always had a money price of their pussy useage.
John Kuthe
While many of SSG's readership finds GoldenMan's posts of this nature
pretty incredible, I am beginning to believe him. What he does not do
in these posts is preface his situation and culture of origin, which
if I'm not mistaken is the Philippines. And areas such as the
Philippines and Thailand have been well known for years for having a
rather risque "sexual vacation" reputation, where for a price, you can
get just about any sexual "perversion" you desire, including sex with
children, animals, seeing adults or children having sex with animals,
etc. Things that are shocking and abhorrent to modern Western culture.
The average age of menarche (first menstruation) is 10, which is a
primary sex characteristic. Things like pubic hair and breasts are
secondary sex characteristics and generally develop after the primary
sex characteristics. Which is not to say that there are no 8YO females
who have breast buds or pubic hair or menstruate. 10 is just the
normal average age of menarche. But there's always the matter of
individual differences.
John Kuthe...
Sarah
>The average age of menarche (first menstruation) is 10, which is a
>primary sex characteristic. Things like pubic hair and breasts are
>secondary sex characteristics and generally develop after the primary
>sex characteristics. Which is not to say that there are no 8YO females
>who have breast buds or pubic hair or menstruate. 10 is just the
>normal average age of menarche. But there's always the matter of
>individual differences.
Ovaries and testes are primary sexual characteristics.
Menstruation is not called a sexual characteristic of any number.
Breasts and pubic hair (secondary sexual characteristics) usually
appear about a year before menarche.
Cheers,
S_C
--
See the ssg homepage: http://socsexualitygeneral.org/
If you want to contact me directly, please replace TwoUnderscores with... well, two underscores.
John Kuthe
> John Kuthe <johnku...@gmail.com> said:
>
> >The average age of menarche (first menstruation) is 10, which is a
> >primary sex characteristic. Things like pubic hair and breasts are
> >secondary sex characteristics and generally develop after the primary
> >sex characteristics. Which is not to say that there are no 8YO females
> >who have breast buds or pubic hair or menstruate. 10 is just the
> >normal average age of menarche. But there's always the matter of
> >individual differences.
>
> Ovaries and testes are primary sexual characteristics.
>
> Menstruation is not called a sexual characteristic of any number.
>
> Breasts and pubic hair (secondary sexual characteristics) usually
> appear about a year before menarche.
I stand corrected. Sorry. My DUH! :-(
I'm fascinated with the society's view of "appropriate" sexualness vs.
the individual's feelings about their own sexuality, especially in
younger persons. I guess because I was an early sexual developer
growing up in what in my opinion is a very sexually repressed culture,
the United States in the late 20th century. And this relates very well
to the OP's question about early age appropriateness for expression of
sexual/romantic interests.
John Kuthe...
Matthew Vincent
Trolling isn't generally worth replying to, but in this case, I think
it's worth noting that masturbation and reading porn are very
different activities from having intercourse with another person, in
terms of developmental maturity. Having an interest in sex is but one
of a cluster of developmental processes that need to occur before
someone is ready for a sexual relationship.
Matthew
Serene
> Trolling isn't generally worth replying to,
Right, and I don't respond to that particular poster, who sometimes
does morph out of my killfiles.
> but in this case, I think
> it's worth noting that masturbation and reading porn are very
> different activities from having intercourse with another person, in
> terms of developmental maturity. Having an interest in sex is but one
> of a cluster of developmental processes that need to occur before
> someone is ready for a sexual relationship.
Exactly. I was sexually aware and functional by ten years old. I
wasn't ready for an actual sexual relationship until I was 25.
Serene
--
Spin the auto-sig generator, and she says:
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about
programming, is not worth knowing." -- Alan J. Perlis
John Kuthe
> Matthew Vincent wrote:
> > Trolling isn't generally worth replying to,
>
> Right, and I don't respond to that particular poster, who sometimes
> does morph out of my killfiles.
>
> > but in this case, I think
>
> > it's worth noting that masturbation and reading porn are very
> > different activities from having intercourse with another person, in
> > terms of developmental maturity. Having an interest in sex is but one
> > of a cluster of developmental processes that need to occur before
> > someone is ready for a sexual relationship.
>
> Exactly. I was sexually aware and functional by ten years old. I
> wasn't ready for an actual sexual relationship until I was 25.
Must be individual differences! I'm male, and males generally develop
later than females, yet I was actively masturbating by age 10, and
having fantasies about having sex with female classmates or just about
any female I felt attracted to. In fact, by 11 (I think it was) when
we had some ridiculous gender-segregated "sex ed" class in 5th grade,
I already had a healthy growth of pubic hair, which I attributed
(probably mistakenly) to my frequent masturbation!
Ready for a sexual relationship? Define that! No, I may not have been,
but then I could be said to have not been "ready" by older ages too,
depending on your definition of "ready for"! *I* thought I was ready
for sex! I was certainly enjoying my masturbation to orgasms a lot,
and would have liked to share my "discovery" with a willing female of
my peer groop (fantasizing about a peer female also having
"discovered" sex!)
John Kuthe...
John Kuthe
> On Oct 20, 1:55 pm, Serene <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Matthew Vincent wrote:
> > > Trolling isn't generally worth replying to,
>
> > Right, and I don't respond to that particular poster, who sometimes
> > does morph out of my killfiles.
>
> > > but in this case, I think
>
> > > it's worth noting that masturbation and reading porn are very
> > > different activities from having intercourse with another person, in
> > > terms of developmental maturity. Having an interest in sex is but one
> > > of a cluster of developmental processes that need to occur before
> > > someone is ready for a sexual relationship.
>
> > Exactly. I was sexually aware and functional by ten years old. I
> > wasn't ready for an actual sexual relationship until I was 25.
>
> Must be individual differences! I'm male, and males generally develop
> later than females, yet I was actively masturbating by age 10, and
> having fantasies about having sex with female classmates or just about
Oops! Sorry, my reading/comprehension skills leave something to be
desired. I thought you (Serene) said "I was NOT sexually aware and
functional by 10 years old." My bad.
I'm interested though, why if at 10 you were sexually aware and
functional (and what exactly does that mean BTW?) do you say you were
NOT ready for an actual sexual relationship until 25? I mean, I can
understand the "I was not ready for a relationship..." part. 10 year
olds are not cognitively or emotionally mature enough to engage in
what we commonly think of as an "adult relationship". But when I was
10, I sure was ready to engage in a SEXUAL relationship!! And did,
playing-wise, with my two male buddies, but while we played around
with each other, no one ever orgasmed. We'd just rub our erect penises
and lay together and talk about how cool it would be if one of us was
a girl! We knew what we REALLY wanted, which was a GIRL to play with!
We'd even talk about and wondering if any girls our age would be
willing and interested in sex play, cause that's who we really wanted
to play sexually with! We were just playing with each other cause we
boys were the only ones we had.
John Kuthe...
Matthew Vincent
Whilst it's certainly true that child sex offenders typically have
distorted beliefs around children's sexuality, this is not true for
most adult men and adolescent males. Most men and most adolescent
males have an intact sense of boundaries around the fact that children
are patently inappropriate objects for sexual attraction, and would
react very differently to flirting related behaviours by a 6-to-8 year
old girl as they would to someone their own age who they were
attracted to. Having a high sex drive is far from a sufficient
motivator to want to molest a child. This is doubly the case if this
guy is anywhere near as much a "Hero" as you claim he is in your
proposed story. A child molester falls a long way short of being a
hero with even a small "h", much less a capital one as you put it.
Consequently, your proposed storyline of an adolescent male molesting
a 6-to-8 year old girl after misreading signals regarding her
attraction to him is not realistic, except in the event that the
particular adolescent male concerned is of very poor character. Also,
you said you don't want this girl to be so young that sex represents a
threat to her health -- are you including the emotional damage that
she'd be caused by being molested?
Incidentally, some studies have found that as many as 95% of
adolescent male sex offenders (this has been researched with respect
to male offenders, where the sample sizes are easier to come by,
though is not necessarily untrue for female offenders) have Conduct
Disorder, which involves a consistent and repeated pattern of
antisocial behaviour. There seems to be less of a divergence between
child sex offences and other serious crimes by adolescent offenders
than there is by older offenders. This may reflect, at least in part,
the fact that child sex offending is not socially acceptable to most
adult male offenders who commit other serious crimes.
Callousness, impulsivity and risk-taking are all predictive of child
sex offending, as they are for many other types of crimes. So, there
are commonalities as well as differences between the risk factors for
child sex offending and other types of crimes.
I hope this information is of use to your background research for your
writing.
Matthew
suzee
What part of fantasy do you not understand? This is a story set in
another type of society which does not have the same boundaries we have
in our current one.
sue
Denny Wheeler
<mbvi...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
(much that shows Senor Vincenzo to need the following:
Quick definitions (fiction)
# noun: a literary work based on the imagination and not necessarily
on fact
# noun: a deliberately false or improbable account
Quick definitions (fantasy)
# noun: imagination unrestricted by reality (Example: "A schoolgirl
fantasy")
# noun: fiction with a large amount of fantasy in it
# noun: something many people believe that is false
)
>I hope this information is of use to your background research for your
>writing.
You might try replying to the question that was asked.
-denny-
--
The test of courage comes when we are in the minority.
The test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority.
Enuf
> > Having an interest in sex is but one
> > of a cluster of developmental processes that need to occur before
> > someone is ready for a sexual relationship.
>
> Exactly. I was sexually aware and functional by ten years old. I
> wasn't ready for an actual sexual relationship until I was 25.
>
The group of kids I ran around with were 10-12yo, and overall sexually
inquisitive but not active. However there was one neighborhood boy
14yo farther advanced from us who picked out a gullible 10yo girl for
active sex on a pretty regular basis. As I recall, she was a willing
partner and proud to have an older boyfriend. In fact they would
occasionally let others watch.
(Damn, you don't think that was GM54 do you?)
Enuf
Remus Shepherd
> Matthew Vincent wrote:
> > On Oct 12, 2:27 am, Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> Elizabeth <eratedr...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >>>> How young a girl is capable of seduction? Nabokov's _Lolita_ was 12,
> >>>> but I'd like this girl to be younger, 6 to 8 if possible. But I don't want
> >>>> her so young that sex presents a threat to her health. How young should
> >>>> she be?
> > sex offending, as they are for many other types of crimes. So, there
> > are commonalities as well as differences between the risk factors for
> > child sex offending and other types of crimes.
> >
> > I hope this information is of use to your background research for your
> > writing.
> What part of fantasy do you not understand? This is a story set in
> another type of society which does not have the same boundaries we have
> in our current one.
> sue
Thanks, Suzee.
I should let everyone know that I've decided to rip the pedophilic
components out of this novel. I realized that if SSG had this much problem
with such a relationship, it would be too large a distraction to any normal
reader. And by doing so I can make my protagonist even younger (he's 13 now,
and will not be getting any girl at all.)
But thank you all for your advice and help, in whatever manner you
offered it.
ObSexuality: I asked the original question because it seemed to me that
males and females mature sexually at different ages. I was not a normal
child, but I remember stuffing kittens into my underwear at age 7. :)
I would certainly not have been emotionally ready for sex then -- I probably
was not emotionally ready for it until my mid-20s -- but I was certainly
ready physically.
But that's not important now. Thanks again, all.
JustGB
I think that's a good thing. I really do. Fantasy or no, bad things
happen to kids in RL and it would be tough for people to stay on the
fantasy side of the line emotionally when it hits so close to home.
I'm glad you're writing it differently.
JustGB
Remus Shepherd
I disagree. One of the goals of writing is to elicit emotional
responses from the reader. Sexual topics -- even sexually abhorrent ones --
are fair game in fiction and authors should not feel that they have to
avoid them.
I'm cutting the girl out of my story because it distracts too much
from the central theme, which is loneliness. My protagonist is alone, and
I thought giving him an inaccessibly young girlfriend highlighted his
loneliness. Instead it threatened to become a story about how pedophiles
are made, and that's not what I intended the story to be.
As sbsolution for giving up this subplot in my novel, I intend to
someday write a short story with a sympathetic pedophile in it, just to
prove that it can be done and should not be avoided. Making the reader
angry/disgusted/horrified is a good thing, if you do it in a controlled
way. :)
JustGB
> JustGB <gettingb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 24, 4:09 pm, Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
> > > I should let everyone know that I've decided to rip the pedophilic
> > > components out of this novel. I realized that if SSG had this much problem
> > > with such a relationship, it would be too large a distraction to any normal
> > > reader. And by doing so I can make my protagonist even younger (he's 13 now,
> > > and will not be getting any girl at all.)
> > I think that's a good thing. I really do. Fantasy or no, bad things
> > happen to kids in RL and it would be tough for people to stay on the
> > fantasy side of the line emotionally when it hits so close to home.
>
> I disagree. One of the goals of writing is to elicit emotional
> responses from the reader. Sexual topics -- even sexually abhorrent ones --
> are fair game in fiction and authors should not feel that they have to
> avoid them.
>
> I'm cutting the girl out of my story because it distracts too much
> from the central theme, which is loneliness. My protagonist is alone, and
> I thought giving him an inaccessibly young girlfriend highlighted his
> loneliness. Instead it threatened to become a story about how pedophiles
> are made, and that's not what I intended the story to be.
Well, it's even better that you're leaving it out if it was gratuitous
and didn't add to the story anyway.
>
> As sbsolution for giving up this subplot in my novel, I intend to
> someday write a short story with a sympathetic pedophile in it, just to
> prove that it can be done and should not be avoided. Making the reader
> angry/disgusted/horrified is a good thing, if you do it in a controlled
> way. :)
A sympathetic pedophile. Gee-zus.
JustGB
GoldenMan54
accuse me of screwing a 10 year old girl to my face so why now.
Matthew Vincent
> JustGB <gettingb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 24, 4:09 pm, Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com> wrote:
> > > I should let everyone know that I've decided to rip the pedophilic
> > > components out of this novel. I realized that if SSG had this much problem
> > > with such a relationship, it would be too large a distraction to any normal
> > > reader. And by doing so I can make my protagonist even younger (he's 13 now,
> > > and will not be getting any girl at all.)
> > I think that's a good thing. I really do. Fantasy or no, bad things
> > happen to kids in RL and it would be tough for people to stay on the
> > fantasy side of the line emotionally when it hits so close to home.
>
> I disagree. One of the goals of writing is to elicit emotional
> responses from the reader. Sexual topics -- even sexually abhorrent ones --
> are fair game in fiction and authors should not feel that they have to
> avoid them.
>
> I'm cutting the girl out of my story because it distracts too much
> from the central theme, which is loneliness. My protagonist is alone, and
> I thought giving him an inaccessibly young girlfriend highlighted his
> loneliness. Instead it threatened to become a story about how pedophiles
> are made, and that's not what I intended the story to be.
>
> someday write a short story with a sympathetic pedophile in it, just to
> prove that it can be done and should not be avoided.
Please excuse the late reply.
After hearing more information about what you had in mind for your
original story, I don't feel as strongly about it as I expressed
previously. My mind had filled in the gaps and I'd assumed that the
story you had in mind would involve a child molester taking a young
girl for his partner in a society where it was accepted, and to be
considered to be a Hero without any moral condemnation of the child
molesting. I'd also assumed that you'd planned on using cultural
relativism to excuse this behaviour without any moral/ethical
considerations against it. From what you've said since then, the story
you actually had in mind is one which I'd potentially be okay with.
It's entirely feasible to write a story involving a "sympathetic
pedophile", because a pedophile is simply someone who's sexually
fixated on children; this can entail either exclusive attraction to
children (exclusive type) or attraction to both adults and children
(nonexclusive type). Many pedophiles have never actually committed a
sexual offence against a child, and manage to indefinitely resist the
urge to act on their internal preferences. Also, some people who
commit sexual offences against children are not pedophiles; this may
be particularly true for married child molesters, who often also
commit domestic violence against their spouse. (That being said, it's
been estimated that around 33-50% of pedophiles do offend sexually
against children, compared to around 1% of the general population
committing sexual offences against children.)
So, one way to write a story involving a sympathetic pedophile would
be to have the character be tempted by sexual feelings towards
children but be noble in resisting them. The character could even
remove themselves from the tribe and avoid children until s/he
succeeded in facing his/her demons. Another option is to have a Hero
character that lives in a tribe where sexual offending against
children is socially accepted, and for that character to do good deeds
in challenging the tribe's beliefs. It might be even more noble if the
character concerned was a pedophile, and thus gave up a personal
convenience out of concern for the children's welfare.
These are some examples, by no means an exhaustive list, of stories
involving pedophile main characters that would in my view keep the
story's integrity intact. I'm not against rape, child molestation,
etc. being explored in fictional literature. On the contrary, one of
my favourite authors, Katharine Kerr, wrote a series of books where
the evil characters engaged in rape, child molestation, torture and
all sorts of other things, and where there was a place called Bardek
where slavery was socially accepted. What made this story acceptable
for me was that it was acknowledged that these acts were wrong, and
cultural relativism was not used as a justification for slavery and
the like. There was a good vs. evil struggle as part of the theme for
the story, and the books invited the reader to want to see a world
with less of these bad things in it.
Matthew