Advice: Mother - Disabled Son Sexuality
Sammy66
do. My
girlfriend, Loretta, of six months is a beautiful, strong, remarkable
Italian-American woman. She's divorced, with a son, late 30's,
slender, tall, beautiful olive skin and even still very perky upstairs
[note: this isn't some sex story, just setting context]. She's by far
the most attractive woman I've ever dated. I'm under no illusions
about why, 1) we started dating, 2) why I was able to court her and 3)
why she loves me. I'm 5 years her junior, I treat her very well, I'm
well off and I adore her son. You see, the fact that my girlfriend's
first husband abandoned her and her physically challenged son 2 years
ago accounts for why a cute, but regular guy, can date such a prized
and wonderful woman.
That being said, our relationship is going well. I like to think I'm
very good with her 14 y.o. son, who's confined to a wheelchair. Yet,
he's not a burden to us and she goes out of her way to see that I get
a lot of solo attention and am "satisfied" with her. In fact, I
sometimes have to cut back her TLC because I never want her son to
perceive me as taking her from him.
As you can imagine, Loretta is de facto nurse to her son. Her health
plan is
actually very good, but not good enough to provide overnight care.
So, when she's home her maternal duties require her to help her son
on/off of his 'throne', she has to bathe him, dress him, etc.
Needless to say, her nursing requires that she see her post-pubescent
son in all his glory. Like a nurse, she approaches her duties with
professionalism, which seems to mitigate the natural awkwardness and
tension of the situation. And, that's the problem....
...Some background, Loretta's son's disability is in his spinal
column. When he
matures more, he will be able to develop the upper-body strength to do
a lot
more for himself. As of today, though, the disability is that he
can't move his
legs or lower torso. However, his intenstines, bowels and
reproductive system
work perfectly fine...
...So, three days ago, Loretta had a grave, timid look on her face
when I came
over. She wanted to talk. I thought she was going to break up with
me or
something. Not the case. She needed to tell me something, just had
to tell me
because she loves me so much and she just has to get it off her
chest...great,
she cheated on me....well, not quite. After a bit, I got her focused
and we
started in with her "issue".
About a year or so ago, her son had his first wet dream. I guess he
was mortified and there was no hiding it. Loretta, of course, handled
it perfectly, objectively and professionally. All the while
reassuring him lovingly. They had some sort of bird and the bees
talk. He began having them more frequently and became more
comfortable about the next morning, but still embarrassed. (Now, I
didn't have many as an adolescent, maybe because I was "relieving"
myself quite frequently). So this went on for a bit.
This is when things got weird. She said that her son was getting
erections when she bathed him. Now, she said that he would get in a
some sort of state of arousal for from time time, but not obvious.
She pled that the baths were effecient, not affectionate. When she
cleaned that region, she did it well and quickly. Yes, it not
pleasant for her-- but they were both long past the embarrassment of
doing. Anyway, for the last six months or so he was getting full
erections. She ignored it for a while. Then, she was exasperated by
this and told him stop getting erections. Bad move. Caused tears and
a schism between them. Not really his fault.
SO, basically, Loretta felt so guilt about blaming him. He has no
sexual outlet. He can't help having nocturnal emissions and cannot
help his erections. OK, I understand this all. So, overcome with
guilt she started blaming herself. Was it what she wore that was
turning him on? She was quick and efficient washing him 'down there',
but was she? She felt sick, she felt sorry for him. She felt (and
looked) horrified.
She's telling me this sobbing, mind you. She literally held this all
in for the time we've been dating. So,one evening (after I dropped
her off after a date and we'd been drinking), Loretta had to bathe her
son. Overcome with guilt, trying to righ the fact that she got upset
with him over something her couldn't help, and she had so much pity
for him. She realized that her son would never "be" with a woman
despite being a pretty handsome kid. Never. She wanted rectify this
situation.
She had said the baths were pretty bad for the last few weeks after
she got mad at him, despite her apologizing. He was timid, testy,
embarrassed, they fought, etc. Anyway, that night, when he started
getting testy and embarrassed, she calmed him. She then proceed to
not wash, rather massage, his scrotum and penis. She said he turned
white. She said she did robotically and didn't think about about
while she was doing it. She said she wouldn't look at him and he
didn't look at her. She did, however, admit that she intended to do
this! Well, she proceeded to ejaculate her son. Neither one said
anything afterwards. She just proceeded to finish the bathing and go
on acting as if it was theraputic or something.
Basically, this became a routine for a week or so. Both in complete
denial, as if the act was just therapy. She said that she could
rationalize it as theraputic. Part of being dealth a bad hand of
cards.
She couldn't and didn't want to keep doing this, so she had another
birds and the bees talk. She suggested that at the end of the bath,
she would leave and he could masterbate. He had nothing to be ashamed
of and that she would dry and dress him afterwards. OK, this is weird
but sounds reasonable. However, this did not work. He said he didn't
want to, the wet dreams started up again and were a source of
embarrassment and mess given his station. She then suggested he
masterbate in his room. This didn't work because e=he could really
clean up after himself. She even went so far as to buy him a couple
of adult DVDs. Again, this create a lot of problems she said.
Basically, this was humilating for her son. Being asked to masterbate
and having to call your mom in afterwards to help you clean up would
be excuciating and emasculating. Waking up every other morning soiled
in a gob of goo in his special bed was a problem. So, she went back
to masterbating him in the bath....
She feels so guilty, so wrong, and so ashamed of it, but doesn't see
any alternative. I appreciate her candor, but I am so confused...
....so, I'm dealing with this f@#*ing mess right now. Anyway, I
promptly left in
disgust and told her I would call her when I was ready. She's been
calling over
the last three days incessantly. I'm not sure what to do. Oh, yes, I
know the
handjobs will have to stop....
Jacques Michel
> I'm in a real tight spot right now and I don't know what the hell to
> do. My
> girlfriend, Loretta, of six months is a beautiful, strong, remarkable
> Italian-American woman. She's divorced, with a son, late 30's,
> slender, tall, beautiful olive skin and even still very perky upstairs
I am sorry, I can't understand why the son needs his mother if his
hands are not paralysed. I know people with paralised legs (in
wheelchairs) and they can bath alone.
suzee
> ....so, I'm dealing with this f@#*ing mess right now. Anyway, I
> promptly left in
> disgust and told her I would call her when I was ready. She's been
> calling over
> the last three days incessantly. I'm not sure what to do. Oh, yes, I
> know the handjobs will have to stop....
If he has use of his arms and hands, she ought to leave him to do his
own bathing, maybe rigging up a seat or harness if he has trouble
sitting upright on his own. She's done nothing to provoke his erections,
it's a normal thing for a guy his age.
sue
illecebra
I agree with Suzee. I used to work with disabled children, including
some who were paraplegic. Most who had full use of their upper body
were bathing themselves by age 10 or so, only needing help getting in
and out of the tub. They do make seats that fit over the bathtub to
provide extra support and keep everything in arm's reach.
There is no reason that he can't masturbate himself. There is also no
reason that he can't have a very full sex life when he gets older.
There are a number of positions that still work well, especially
considering all the fun positioning props on the market today. :)
After reading this, I called a friend of mine who is a physical
therapist. She says that if he only has the disabilities that you
describe, then he should be able to bathe himself without a problem.
She recommended that Loretta and her son talk to a good occupational
therapist about helping him become more independant. (Occupational
therapists specialize in helping disabled people and people recovering
from serious injuries learn to perform tasks like bathing themselves,
driving, etc.)
It sounds like the son doesn't feel particularly able, and that his
mother has resigned herself to doing everything for him. Things
probably don't have to be that way. The more he does for himself the
more he is likely to feel confident and in control of his life, and it
would definitely save the mom some frustration, too.
He's not as different from every other 14yo as you might think. People
in wheelchairs bathe themselves, dress themselves, date, have sex, and
more all the time.
Susan
GoldenMan54
the kid. This way she will be helping her son grow sexually and getting
a few quick jabs of her sons penis. The young lad needs to have his nut
sack drained properly and the best person to do so, is his mother.
Sarah
> This didn't work because e=he could really
>clean up after himself. She even went so far as to buy him a couple
>of adult DVDs. Again, this create a lot of problems she said.
>Basically, this was humilating for her son. Being asked to masterbate
>and having to call your mom in afterwards to help you clean up would
>be excuciating and emasculating. Waking up every other morning soiled
>in a gob of goo in his special bed was a problem.
If, as you said, he has good mobility in his arms and upper torso, who
on earth isn;t it possible for him to have a box of tissues and a
rubbish bin in reach?
Surely he could masturbate, clean himself up, and bin the evidence?
I think it's sad you felt you need to leave your relationship over
this though. She's obviously horribly distressed and could do with the
help and support of a loving partner, but if you can't deal with it,
you can't.
--
Sarah
Scott
related... say hi to Aunt Mom and Uncle Dad for us.
Back to the real issue, I think the best advice is the occupational
therapist. My advice to you as the Boyfriend, don't ostrasize her for
what she's doing - she's just trying to give her son a 'normal' life.
It sounds like she's a really great mother that's just a little
confuzed on which way to approach this situation. The best thing you
can do is to be there for her because she's very vulnerable right
nowand I think she's reaching out to you for help. By walking out, it
shows her that you are ashamed of what she's done and even if this is
the case, perhaps your guidance would be more appreciated than your
dissapproval. Suggest the therapist and try to understand that it's
as difficult for her as it is for you but I agree - it does have to
stop. Best of luck - Scott
Durian...@webtv.net (GoldenMan54) wrote in message news:<6689-40D...@storefull-3315.bay.webtv.net>...
Tom Allen
news:40D83E9B...@imbris.com
Hell, it's a normal thing for a guy *my* age...
Tom <acting his age since 1958>
Joey Peters
cops on her.
Elisobella
> ...Some background, Loretta's son's disability is in his spinal
> column. When he
> matures more, he will be able to develop the upper-body strength to do
> a lot
> more for himself. As of today, though, the disability is that he
> can't move his
> legs or lower torso. However, his intenstines, bowels and
> reproductive system
> work perfectly fine...
>
>
> SO, basically, Loretta felt so guilt about blaming him. He has no
> sexual outlet. He can't help having nocturnal emissions and cannot
> help his erections. OK, I understand this all. So, overcome with
> guilt she started blaming herself. Was it what she wore that was
> turning him on? She was quick and efficient washing him 'down there',
> but was she? She felt sick, she felt sorry for him. ....snip... She then proceed to
> not wash, rather massage, his scrotum and penis. ...snip...
>
> ....so, I'm dealing with this f@#*ing mess right now. Anyway, I
> promptly left in
> disgust and told her I would call her when I was ready. She's been
> calling over
> the last three days incessantly. I'm not sure what to do. Oh, yes, I
> know the
> handjobs will have to stop....
I must say that when I read your post I thought you'd invented the
whole scenario - and not very well at that. Afterall, why did your
girlfriend feel she had to masturbate her son when his upper body,
arms and hands are not paralysed? He can masturbate himself. I can't
take this story seriously.
Sammy66
I did not think of asking her to increase his occupational therapy,
but that is a constructive suggestion I will have for her. I also did
not consider the emotional aspect of it. Yes, Loretta's son has an
apparatus to sit in the bath and probably can take care of the
bathing. Since reaching adolescence, he does have much more strength
and contol from his midsection and up. However, this is only been in
the last couple of years as he has improved. Before, he could not
ably bathe himself. Getting back to it, though, I can see that
Loretta is timid to leave him alone and probably does baby him. As
far as masturbating alone, she did suggest and encourage that. His
problem was, and I agree with it, that it is humiliating to have your
mother tell you it's time to masturbate and then have to call her in
afterwards to help clean up. Regarding the latter, his physiology is
such that he needs help cleaning, ok?
I guess want I need to think about, then we need to talk about, is the
emotional aspects at play. I am reluctant to force her to amend the
way she raises and treats her son-- despite the development being
retarded. Additionally, I can understand the Oedipal impulses of her
son. Loretta is the world to him and she is, indeed, attractive and
affectionate. I think she needs to approach her emotions on this--
what she considers within the maternal bond, is not acceptable, right?
On a side note, there is an aspect of violation on my part. It just
weirds me out that my girlfriend has ejaculated her son. I also have
a natural tinge of jealous that makes me think that there was more
going on to elicit such a guilty confession to me-- just a little bit
of me thinks this.
Thanks for your comments and I'm open to more of the pop-pyschology.
I did see Loretta yesterday and assured her that I am not abandoning
her, but need to work this out....whole different ball game there.
illecebra <vyyrpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2jr3s4F...@uni-berlin.de>...
mountainpass
when my mom bathed me, and when we took showers together, even at a
very early age. It's not a sign of sexual attraction to the mother,
it's only a physical reaction.
And as the other posters said, if he can use his hands, why can't he
clean up after himself?
Best wishes,
mtnpass
jwalt73...@yahoo.com (Sammy66) wrote in message news:<bbb56404.04062...@posting.google.com>...
Defaced Evil
news:bbb56404.04062...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
Haven't we all read this somewhere before? ;-)
suzee
>
> I appreciate your candor and comments, sans "Golden's".
>
> I did not think of asking her to increase his occupational therapy,
> but that is a constructive suggestion I will have for her. I also did
> not consider the emotional aspect of it. Yes, Loretta's son has an
> apparatus to sit in the bath and probably can take care of the
> bathing. Since reaching adolescence, he does have much more strength
> and contol from his midsection and up. However, this is only been in
> the last couple of years as he has improved. Before, he could not
> ably bathe himself. Getting back to it, though, I can see that
> Loretta is timid to leave him alone and probably does baby him. As
> far as masturbating alone, she did suggest and encourage that. His
> problem was, and I agree with it, that it is humiliating to have your
> mother tell you it's time to masturbate and then have to call her in
> afterwards to help clean up. Regarding the latter, his physiology is
> such that he needs help cleaning, ok?
Right, and so he could do it while bathing himself. Problem solved, no?
I have a co-worker with a 22 yo completely disabled son. She runs
herself ragged taking care of him, rushing home to help him when there's
no one there. We've suggested she get some home health care for a couple
hours a day when no one can be there, but she says he's embarrassed to
have a stranger `wipe his butt', as she put it once. In other words,
he's not comfortable with anyone but mama (or his gf) seeing him
performing bodily functions. I feel that she's encouraged this
dependence over the years, though she'd see it as only what she needs to
be doing for him. Be careful that your friend doesn't get as attached to
being a caretaker for her son as my co-worker.
sue
Sam Murai
"Jacques Michel" <jak...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5e2ca8a5.04062...@posting.google.com...
Yeh. And if he can masturbate, why can't he clean up himself with some
Kleenex?
--
SaM mUrAi
Sam Murai
"Scott" <s_man...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9312dfca.04062...@posting.google.com...
> Ok, I think we can all agree that GoldenMan54's parents were closely
> related... say hi to Aunt Mom and Uncle Dad for us.
ROFLOL! That's a nice comeback.
> Back to the real issue, I think the best advice is the occupational
> therapist. My advice to you as the Boyfriend, don't ostrasize her for
> what she's doing - she's just trying to give her son a 'normal' life.
> It sounds like she's a really great mother that's just a little
> confuzed on which way to approach this situation. The best thing you
> can do is to be there for her because she's very vulnerable right
> nowand I think she's reaching out to you for help. By walking out, it
> shows her that you are ashamed of what she's done and even if this is
> the case, perhaps your guidance would be more appreciated than your
> dissapproval. Suggest the therapist and try to understand that it's
> as difficult for her as it is for you but I agree - it does have to
> stop. Best of luck - Scott
I can understand the mother a little, especially as she performs the sex act
clinically.
I just can't help wondering what's going through the kid's mind!
--
SaM mUrAi
GoldenMan54
and he used to beat me until I could not see just to prove he was my
boss. I blew up when I was 16 year old and broke a baseball bat over his
body then stuffed him into a septic tank holder. I spent two years in a
mental hospital and came out meaner than when I went in. I entered into
incest relationships, enjoyed it and enjoyed the loving I got. But one
day I left, caught a freight train to no where, picked cotton,
vegetables and joined the Army. I still hate and think nothing about
other people. We need the KKK and Knights of the Golden Circle to come
back and kick some ass of the too many wetsbacks, Mongs, Filipino's who
are here illiegally.
Norton
>That women is sick. I'd dump her. You should think about calling the
>cops on her.
I knew that when the chips were down, WebTV would ride
to the rescue!
Let's hear it for WebTV!!!!
Norton.
Sammy66
I'm sorry, this is not an easy thing to just assimilate. I will be
there for her, but you must understand how difficult and confusing
this is to hear from the woman you love...
Sarah <sarah_cha...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message news:<ar9hd0plg7sa2c8bl...@4ax.com>...
petey
I tend to agree with this assessment. If the kid can jerk himself
off, I'd doubt he'd have any problem cleaning up.
Scott
Wow. To be honest, I am truely sorry that you suffered that trauma as
a child - no one deserves to go through that. I do have to say
though, that's no excuse for saying what you said in this post. I
think you might have missed a minority group or two in your rant, you
wouldn't want anyone going away unoffended now would you? It never
ceases to amaze me that in today's society we still have this
racist/facist group of people that would kill a black for being darker
but a redneck with a tan is ok... huh? Beyond that, what blows my
mind even more is the fact that you can spell KKK all by yourself.
Now that the wound is open nice and deep, let me throw the salt in it
- I am Spanish, known affectionately to my friends as the scratchback
because I crawled under the barbed wire Amigo. Shot down by a
Mexican...
I didn't come here to crap on Golden boy here but someone has to say
it sometimes. I really just popped in to see how our happy couple was
doing with their issue. I am glad to see that Sarah is open minded
too, I really think that the mother needs support right now and some
guidance to make the best decision possible. I am a father with two
young boys so I know that there's a really strong bond there. I
wouldn't do what this particular woman is doing but I understand that
she is desperately trying to help and is just confused.
Elisobella
> I'm sorry, this is not an easy thing to just assimilate. I will be
> there for her, but you must understand how difficult and confusing
> this is to hear from the woman you love...
>
Could you please answer the question on most people's lips: why can't
the son masturbate himself? His paralysis - according to you - doesn't
include his hands and upper body.
Sam Murai
"petey" <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b3e91343.04062...@posting.google.com...
If the kid did some weight lifting, not only would that help to develop his
strength, he would learn how to jerk and clean...
--
SaM mUrAi
Tom Allen
news:40da...@usenet.per.paradox.net.au
||
|| I tend to agree with this assessment. If the kid can jerk himself
|| off, I'd doubt he'd have any problem cleaning up.
||
|
| If the kid did some weight lifting, not only would that help to
| develop his strength, he would learn how to jerk and clean...
Sam - the noise that you hear down under is the sound of my groaning 14
time zones away. That was really, *really* bad.
Tom <for whom the only good pun is a bad pun>
GoldenMan54
new anti span thing. They will not let anyone connect to anything they
consider span anymore or private groups. I have been a member of asfo
for 5 years but they shut off the website to me.
Rick Eames
(in article <bbb56404.04062...@posting.google.com>):
<snip>
> She couldn't and didn't want to keep doing this, so she had another
> birds and the bees talk. She suggested that at the end of the bath,
> she would leave and he could masterbate. He had nothing to be ashamed
> of and that she would dry and dress him afterwards. OK, this is weird
> but sounds reasonable. However, this did not work. He said he didn't
> want to, the wet dreams started up again and were a source of
> embarrassment and mess given his station. She then suggested he
> masterbate in his room. This didn't work because e=he could really
> clean up after himself. She even went so far as to buy him a couple
> of adult DVDs. Again, this create a lot of problems she said.
> Basically, this was humilating for her son. Being asked to masterbate
> and having to call your mom in afterwards to help you clean up would
> be excuciating and emasculating. Waking up every other morning soiled
> in a gob of goo in his special bed was a problem. So, she went back
> to masterbating him in the bath....
Um, buy him one of these:
illecebra
Hash: SHA1
Rick Eames wrote:
<snip>
|
| Um, buy him one of these:
|
| http://shop.store.yahoo.com/spankie/original.html
|
For $8.99, when there are plenty of towels, socks, and other random
fabric things lying around? You're nuts.
Susan
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Norton
Perhaps his answer crossed your post. IIRC he said that the
boy *can* masturbate but due to his condition can't clean
himself afterwards.
I can understand that as ejaculate can go anywhere, especially
when the male is young. (N.B. I once shot a bit *over* my head
and had to hunt up where it went.) So I can understand about
the clean-up thing.
And that's a bit of a problem. But it seems to me that it
has some solutions. One I used when I was young was to
wear a condom. That made clean up fairly easy.
Norton.
Norton
Sam now has to go to his room because he's been given a timeout.
Norton.
Norton
That's something to punder.
Norton.
Norton
Spring for an internet connection. I read newsgroups
for years over a phone line.
Norton.
Sammy66
appreciate the few posts that have been constructive.
That being said, Loretta and I spent most of the night talking,
crying, debating and reassuring about this issue. Some of the
critical (as in analysis) items here were used. Frankly, her son
SHOULD be able to handle things and not require maidservice or be
humiliated. Loretta could have facilitated this long ago. Basically,
she admitted to the fact that she does baby him and that it was a
tremendous guilt and pity that why she indulged her son in such a
manner, rationalized by his disability. I do not blame her son,
Loretta is an attractive woman, affectionate and the center of the
world to this kid. I can understand the games or his reaction to
having do it himself. So, Loretta will be focusing more of his rehap
on occupational items and will indulge him with privacy and a
membership to something called "deluxepass" on the web.
I think these are healthy remedies. However, I still feel violated in
a sense. I don't like the fact that she was, in some manner, intimate
or inappropriate with her son. I also have this tinge of jealousy
that more happened or somehow she derived a guilty pleasure from it.
BUT, those are my issues....whew....
Thanks for your input. I guess this thread could consider the
morality of the issue, rather than the specifics. When is it, if
ever, OK for a mother to be involved in some intimate way in her son's
development? I'm not saying lets debate incest, rather, more cursory
elements.
eli_...@yahoo.com.au (Elisobella) wrote in message news:<250a9482.04062...@posting.google.com>...
Beer Gogglers
Sam Murai
"Norton" <nor...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:cbg9f1$pcr$3...@reader2.panix.com...
....
> I can understand that as ejaculate can go anywhere, especially
> when the male is young. (N.B. I once shot a bit *over* my head
> and had to hunt up where it went.)
....
What? Like Ben Stiller in that movie with Cameron Diaz, "There's Something
About Mary"?
--
SaM mUrAi
Sam Murai
"Tom Allen" <tao...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2k0b1tF...@uni-berlin.de...
Hey, what about Elisobella's hair pun in the "butt crack hair in women"
thread?
--
SaM mUrAi
Sam Murai
Did you hear that? Was that Tom groaning again?
--
SaM mUrAi
suzee
Or maybe making up one to top that....
sue
Tom Allen
Yes, that was a case of "post-traumatic *tress* syndrome". But if you
like that kind of humor, hirsute yourself.
Tom
Sam Murai
*groan*
(So where's "14 time zones away"?)
--
SaM mUrAi
Tom Allen
I'm in Conn, on the northeast coast. Southern New England we call it.
Although at the moment I'm in sunny Florida, bout halfway down on the
Gulf side. It's hot, hot, hot this week. Got a sunburn for the first
time in years.
Tom
Norton
The problem of disabled children is very very complex. There
is enough guilt to go around and plenty for a second helping.
Picking a path between devoting too much of one's life to such
a child and devoting too little is a very difficult path to
find, much less follow.
One has to walk in such a parent's shoes for a while before
offering too much criticism.
From what you've said it is my personal view that nothing
immoral happened.
I fully understand your reactions and, I think, that you
have reacted well. The major question (and I think it is
a moral one) seems to me to be: do you want to share your
life with the two of them. It would be wonderful if you
did. I'm sure that from what you say about her she'd
show you more attention than many mothers with children
can spare for their spouses. Being a mother to a needy
child is also very hard.
The issues you are having seem to me to be perfectly normal.
If you can overcome them, great! If you can't, do not continue
with this woman because the wound will only fester, or so I
think. Leaving would be hard for both of you, but staying
when you are not happy would be worse.
But you seem to be an open and sincere person and I'd bet
you can handle it.
Just my two cents.
Norton.
Norton
Norton
Norton
Make up your mind. Are you in Connecticut or Florida?
:-)
Norton.
Elisobella
> appreciate the few posts that have been constructive.
But, surely if your story is true, you would have inquired of Loretta
why her son couldn't masturbate himself - and clean up afterwards,
given that he has the use of his upper body. If not, why not? The very
fact that you apparently took it at face value makes many of us very
suspicious of the authenticity of the account. I mean, you seem to be
a bright guy. However.....
>
> That being said, Loretta and I spent most of the night talking,
> crying, debating and reassuring about this issue. Some of the
> critical (as in analysis) items here were used. Frankly, her son
> SHOULD be able to handle things and not require maidservice or be
> humiliated. Loretta could have facilitated this long ago. Basically,
> she admitted to the fact that she does baby him and that it was a
> tremendous guilt and pity that why she indulged her son in such a
> manner, rationalized by his disability.
If it was as you say here, I need to know how long Loretta's son has
been paralyzed, and whether he has so long neglected the use of his
arms/hands that they are now too weak to use effectively in self care.
I do not blame her son,
> Loretta is an attractive woman, affectionate and the center of the
> world to this kid. I can understand the games or his reaction to
> having do it himself. So, Loretta will be focusing more of his rehap
> on occupational items and will indulge him with privacy and a
> membership to something called "deluxepass" on the web.
This is good.
>
> I think these are healthy remedies. However, I still feel violated in
> a sense. I don't like the fact that she was, in some manner, intimate
> or inappropriate with her son. I also have this tinge of jealousy
> that more happened or somehow she derived a guilty pleasure from it.
> BUT, those are my issues....whew....
Yes, I understand this.
>
> Thanks for your input. I guess this thread could consider the
> morality of the issue, rather than the specifics. When is it, if
> ever, OK for a mother to be involved in some intimate way in her son's
> development? I'm not saying lets debate incest, rather, more cursory
> elements.
Yes, this is a useful topic of debate: whether carers (whether parents
or other people) should also engage in the sexual relief of their
disabled charges. What do the others think here?
>
>
Sam Murai
Yeh, if you like Farelly Bros. humour.
Actually, that masturbation scene makes for an interesting topic:
The character Ben Stiller plays is all excited about a chance to date his
(and everyone's) dream girl, Mary (played by Cameron Diaz). He's so nervous
about the sexual tension that his experienced friend gives him some advice
which I've never heard before but seems to make sense.
His friend tells him that the problem with male-female courtship is that the
guy is more focussed on sex than the woman is, thus making him less likely
to relax and appreciate the emotional relationship with the woman. Or
something to that degree. Anyway, he recommends that Ben Stiller masturbates
first before he goes out on his date, so that he releases his sexual
tension, and won't be so focussed on sex when he builds his relationship
with Mary. That way, he is able to have a friendly conversation with Mary,
without thinking of sex all the time.
What do guys think about this theory?
--
SaM mUrAi
Sam Murai
"Elisobella" <eli_...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:250a9482.04062...@posting.google.com...
...
....
>
> Yes, this is a useful topic of debate: whether carers (whether parents
> or other people) should also engage in the sexual relief of their
> disabled charges. What do the others think here?
> >
It would be a great fantasy if my carer was a drop-dead gorgeous babe...
--
SaM mUrAi
illecebra
Hash: SHA1
Elisobella wrote:
<snip>
| Yes, this is a useful topic of debate: whether carers (whether parents
| or other people) should also engage in the sexual relief of their
| disabled charges. What do the others think here?
I seem to remember this coming up on SSG with reference to some
paraplegic guy some time ago.
In a lot of places, a professional caregiver would face professional
censure or even jail for masturbating their charge (even if consensual).
Honestly, I think that allowing professional caregivers to masturbate
their clients would, in the end, severely disadvantage low-income
disabled who need in-home care, at least in Chicago.
In Chicago, at least, medicaid still provides for hospital visits and
some followups, but almost all home health care provided to people who
don't have wonderful insurance and can't pay for it out-of-pocket is
given by Catholic Charities, a not-for-profit which helps give home
healthcare to people who can't afford it, sends preists to the home, etc.
Right now, any request for sexual relief from a caregiver is quietly
swept unter the "Florence Nightengale Syndrome" rug, and forgotten. If
the need were legitemized by the healthcare system, I think that
Catholic Charities (at least the home healthcare part) would probably
fall apart. After all, what good Catholic nurse would continue to treat
a person who made such a request, let alone provide the service?
My grandfather received healthcare through Catholic Charities while my
parents worked and I was at school in his last years. The organization
attracts some of the most strictly Catholic and on rare occasion
strictly protestant Christian healthcare workers, almost all women. I
think that the organization would quickly lose its attractiveness to
qualified caregivers if requests for sexual relief were legitimized,
even if it weren't allowed to be done by the organization's nurses.
IOW, they NEED to believe that the person doesn't really want anything
sexual, that they're just experiencing "Florence Nightengale Syndrome."
This is obviously not true of all healthcare workers, but as I said, I'm
talking about Catholic Charities out of Chicago. I really don't know
about other places, but where I grew up (south of Chicago), being (or at
least claiming to be) Catholic was a survival skill if you didn't have a
lot of money and you needed medical care.
So, whether or not it's moral, IMHO, allowing professional caregivers to
~ provide masturbation as a service to their charges is not practical.
At least in some areas, the Catholic Church has too strong a hold on
healthcare, and unless you are on the high end of the income scale, you
can't afford to give them the finger and go elsewhere.
Susan
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Norton
When I was young I used to come too quickly. So I used
this device before going out. For a couple of years it
gave me amazing stamina -- after all, it was my second time.
But after a while...
One does get older. Now I don't need any help in lasting
for quite a while. In fact, sometimes I don't come at all
right then.
Norton.
Ken Tough
>Honestly, I think that allowing professional caregivers to masturbate
>their clients would, in the end, severely disadvantage low-income
>disabled who need in-home care, at least in Chicago.
...
>Right now, any request for sexual relief from a caregiver is quietly
>swept unter the "Florence Nightengale Syndrome" rug, and forgotten. If
>the need were legitemized by the healthcare system, I think that
>Catholic Charities (at least the home healthcare part) would probably
>fall apart. After all, what good Catholic nurse would continue to treat
>a person who made such a request, let alone provide the service?
>So, whether or not it's moral, IMHO, allowing professional caregivers to
>~ provide masturbation as a service to their charges is not practical.
>At least in some areas, the Catholic Church has too strong a hold on
>healthcare, and unless you are on the high end of the income scale, you
>can't afford to give them the finger and go elsewhere.
In The Netherlands (and some scandinavia?), the free public health
system provides for professional sexual help for disabled. Little
surprise that they're leaps ahead there, too.
--
Ken Tough
Sam Murai
"Ken Tough" <k...@objectech.co.uk> wrote in message
news:BIQzebCi...@objectech.co.uk...
What?! You mean social security can cover prostitute services if you're too
disabled to have sex?
Wow, that's a good place to be handicapped!
--
SaM mUrAi
Norton
That's because they have sex in Denmark. We don't have
sex in the US, at least not openly. There are only two
ways to have sex in the US. One is to go to your local
government office and pay for a sex certificate. You then
take that certificate to a Proper Authority who says some
words over you and then signs your certificate.
You may then have sex, but only in your own home at night
in the dark with the shades drawm. And fully dressed too.
The other way is illegal. For this you don't need a certificate
or approval of a Proper Authority. And you don't even have
to have it in your own home at night in the dark with the
shades drawn. And fully dressed too.
But if you are caught at this you can be sent away to reform
school, jail, a mental hospital, or, of you are lucky, simply
made to feel guilty for the rest of your life. And you are
then placed on the register of Evil Persons and ministers will
complain about you from the pulpit. Forever.
In Denmark, you just have sex.
Norton.
Affection love
look at it in a mental state how will the boy react to this when he
matures into a man , he may have regrets later on an think he was abused
sexually.
To have a friend u have to be one. God loves us all....
Peter Schmidt
> This is when things got weird. She said that her son was getting
> erections when she bathed him.
Hi,
I have read this letter and none of the answers, so sorry if I repeat
somebody's sentences.
My opinion is that in this situation your task is to support the mother
and certainly not to feel this "things are weird" - and running away.
The boy has a tragic life and the normal rules does not work in his
situation.
The disabled boy could be your own son, and in certain case YOU would be
in a similar situation to help him or to refuse the help because of
preconceptions of the happy and healty society and bacause of your
unability to be superior the everyday thinking.
In your place I would be pleased by the exceptional gf you have got and
would absulte accept that how she feels and helps for her son, further I
would try to make a good atmosphere about this question. I feel pity for
the mother how she suffers because of stupid preconceptions which are
not really valid in this situation.
Of course, it is better if you can find somebody else to (also) help the
boy, but if the mother does it time to time I would not take it
tragically at all.
In short, sometimes I would send a wink to the boy, but would say
nothing in public because that can be dangerous.
The best, Peter :)
illecebra
Hash: SHA1
Peter Schmidt wrote:
<snip>
| My opinion is that in this situation your task is to support the mother
| and certainly not to feel this "things are weird" - and running away.
| The boy has a tragic life and the normal rules does not work in his
| situation.
|
| The disabled boy could be your own son, and in certain case YOU would be
| in a similar situation to help him or to refuse the help because of
| preconceptions of the happy and healty society and bacause of your
| unability to be superior the everyday thinking.
|
| In your place I would be pleased by the exceptional gf you have got and
| would absulte accept that how she feels and helps for her son, further I
| would try to make a good atmosphere about this question. I feel pity for
| the mother how she suffers because of stupid preconceptions which are
| not really valid in this situation.
|
<snip>
I do find it exceptional that Loretta is willing to acknowledge that her
son needs a sexual outlet (as most parents of kids that age seem to
prefer denial). However, I feel that her masturbating her son
reinforces her view of him as less able than he is (or can be), and
isn't good for his self-efficacy either.
Whether or not you like society's views, they are there and he will be
exposed to them at some point (if he isn't already). This is likely to
create a lot of emotional baggage for him down the road. As it stands,
his mother's behavior is based on the belief that he can't date and have
sex like a person without his disability would, and her behavior only
serves to reinforce that belief in both of them.
In truth, a lot of men with similar conditions lead happy lives,
including their sex lives. It takes a patient partner, but happens
every day. I'd hate to see him miss out on that because he and his
mother have convinced themselves that he is so disabled that he can't
have any real independence.
Susan
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Peter Schmidt
We don't have
> sex in the US, at least not openly. There are only two
> ways to have sex in the US. One is to go to your local
> government office and pay for a sex certificate. You then
> take that certificate to a Proper Authority who says some
> words over you and then signs your certificate.
>
> You may then have sex, but only in your own home at night
> in the dark with the shades drawm. And fully dressed too.
>
> The other way is illegal. For this you don't need a certificate
> or approval of a Proper Authority. And you don't even have
> to have it in your own home at night in the dark with the
> shades drawn. And fully dressed too.
>
> But if you are caught at this you can be sent away to reform
> school, jail, a mental hospital, or, of you are lucky, simply
> made to feel guilty for the rest of your life. And you are
> then placed on the register of Evil Persons and ministers will
> complain about you from the pulpit. Forever.
>
> In Denmark, you just have sex.
>
> Norton.
:)))
thanks for this summary...and sorry for citing the full text,
but I like it..
peter
Peter Schmidt
> In truth, a lot of men with similar conditions lead happy lives,
> including their sex lives. It takes a patient partner, but happens
> every day. I'd hate to see him miss out on that because he and his
> mother have convinced themselves that he is so disabled that he can't
> have any real independence.
I agree, independece is very important.
In fact, I tried to react mainly to the full condemnation of Sam66 who
brought this peculiar story here.
On the other hand, we do not know that what oppotunities this boy meet
in his everyday life. In this age boys have exciting sexy chats with
other boys or with schoolmate gils perhaps with kissing and touching
etc...I think these playings are important for the later psychic
balance. It is sad to drop out of all the similar experience and may
also have bad consequences. I mean, the endless yearning for somebody or
something may fix in the soul, etc.
I think, if there are no chance for a good or not so good friend to play
to chat, to touch, etc..this way is not so bad as people find it for
first reading or hearing.
The best, peter
Blind Dyke
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Peter Schmidt wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> | My opinion is that in this situation your task is to support the mother
> | and certainly not to feel this "things are weird" - and running away.
> | The boy has a tragic life and the normal rules does not work in his
> | situation.
> |
> | The disabled boy could be your own son, and in certain case YOU would be
> | in a similar situation to help him or to refuse the help because of
> | preconceptions of the happy and healty society and bacause of your
> | unability to be superior the everyday thinking.
> |
> | In your place I would be pleased by the exceptional gf you have got and
> | would absulte accept that how she feels and helps for her son, further I
> | would try to make a good atmosphere about this question. I feel pity for
> | the mother how she suffers because of stupid preconceptions which are
> | not really valid in this situation.
> |
This thread was brought up on another list (QueerDisability) and I
thought I'd transfer over to see what was up. Having read the
original post and some of the others, I thought some perspective might
be in order.
First, what was done by the mother was sexual abuse pure and simple.
It is no different than any adult who has sex with or sexually fondles
any child -- disabled or not. While I don't know that she fits the
traditional definition of a pediphiliac, she is abusing her son in a
variety of ways -- via paternalism.
Having said that, it is also quite clear this woman does not have the
vaguest clue as to what her son is capable of doing. If he's a
paraplegic, there is no reason in the world why he can't bathe, dress,
and take care of himself -- and some medical professional is seriously
remiss if they didn't teach the child how to transfer and do simple
tasks and my guess is that these things were done. Given that he
should have an IEP/504 Accommodation Plan at school, living skills
should have been introduced a looooong time ago. So, the mother has
no business doing any of the stuff she's doing -- the bathing, the
dressing, etc.
Second, this boy should have the opportunity to explore sex on his own
and there is no reason why he can't. If he has access to a computer,
then there are a variety of Disabled Teen lists. There are also a
variety of books, support groups, state agencies, clubs and
organizations all over the country where he can learn from other
Disabled people how they approached dating, etc.
This kid's life does not have to be a tragedy. It's only a tragedy
that, in the information age, no one appears to bother to look for
information.
illecebra
Hash: SHA1
Blind Dyke wrote:
<snip>
|
| First, what was done by the mother was sexual abuse pure and simple.
| It is no different than any adult who has sex with or sexually fondles
| any child -- disabled or not. While I don't know that she fits the
| traditional definition of a pediphiliac, she is abusing her son in a
| variety of ways -- via paternalism.
You seem to be operating under the presumptin that the mother has some
clue about what raising a disabled son entails other than the purely
logistical aspects. After nearly 10 years of working with parents of
disabled children, I can tell you that it is often not the case.
Remember, the fates don't check to see that you live in a lefty-urban or
suburban neighborhood before giving you a disabled child.
It is very common for a parent to learn that their child is disabled and
not have any experience with disabled children. Then, if they live in
an area where the school district is underfunded (not an uncommon
condition), schools often take advantage of parents who don't know the
school code inside-and-out by fast-talking them out of appropriate
(read: expensive) services. Also, her insurance provider may limit what
kind of occupational therapy is available for her son. She could simply
be uneducated in the lives and lifestyles of disabled persons. Frankly,
her dispondant attitude is fairly well in keeping with how American
media treat the disabled, and how many inexperienced individuals see them.
By the way, the word I believe you're searching for is "pedophile" not
"pedophiliac," which isn't a word in any of my three dictionaries,
including the psych terms one. Nor is "paternalism," which appears to
be a misconstruction based on "paternal" which means "to act in a
fatherly manner," from the Latin "pater" which means "father."
When trying to use technical terms please verify that they exist, and if
they do exist but are too obscure for the average layperson to be
familiar with, then please provide a definition for each.
That said, accusing the mother of pedophilia is counterproductive. It
will only psychologically damage both her and her son, thus making her
less able to care for him. (Not to mention that it's a totally
innaccurate statement, as she did not derive pleasure or satisfaction
from the act--quite the opposite, the cognative dissonance* involved was
quite painful for her.)
Better to let her know that the behavior is unhealthy and unneccessary,
and educate her on alternatives. This behavior is merely a symptom of
an underlying problem: lack of education (or, if she has one of the more
devious healthcare providers, deliberate misinformation) which has led
to a mother and son who both feel as if his disability is such that he
can not ever have even the most basic independance. THAT is the problem
that most needs to be addressed, and I believe that it is, as the OP has
related that she is seeking additional occupational therapy for the boy.
| Having said that, it is also quite clear this woman does not have the
| vaguest clue as to what her son is capable of doing. If he's a
| paraplegic, there is no reason in the world why he can't bathe, dress,
| and take care of himself -- and some medical professional is seriously
| remiss if they didn't teach the child how to transfer and do simple
| tasks and my guess is that these things were done. Given that he
| should have an IEP/504 Accommodation Plan at school, living skills
| should have been introduced a looooong time ago.
Reread your own paragraph: "...some medical professional is seriously
remiss..." "..._should_ have an IEP/504..." [emphasis mine] Just
because doctors SHOULD teach their patients and patients' caregivers
certain things, and because schools SHOULD provide appropriate services,
that doesn't mean that they DO. In the end, sadly, some schools and
most insurance companies are willing to gross disservice to persons like
this boy in order to save a buck.
| So, the mother has
| no business doing any of the stuff she's doing -- the bathing, the
| dressing, etc.
Helping is one thing. She can't just go cold turkey on helping him
because he hasn't recieved the OT to get him up to speed as far as basic
life tasks. He is, at this point, unable to perform them. However, the
deficiency has nothing to do with his body, but with his lack of
education on how to cope with his condition. That can and is being
remedied now.
| Second, this boy should have the opportunity to explore sex on his own
| and there is no reason why he can't.
And the mother is doing her best to facilitate that. Heck, she even
bought him a subscription to web porn. Unfortunately, sexuality of
disabled persons, especially those this young, is very hard to learn
about because in the US it is not considered PC to discuss it.
| If he has access to a computer,
| then there are a variety of Disabled Teen lists. There are also a
| variety of books, support groups, state agencies, clubs and
| organizations all over the country where he can learn from other
| Disabled people how they approached dating, etc.
I think that meeting other disabled teens would be very valuable for
both the boy and his mother, however I hate it when people encourage the
disabled to seek out only other disabled persons for socialization. I
believe that it makes those people feel farther apart from society as a
whole, and that it is very limiting in general, as the disabled portion
of any community is generally quite a bit smaller than the community as
a whole.
| This kid's life does not have to be a tragedy. It's only a tragedy
| that, in the information age, no one appears to bother to look for
| information.
And, all too often, parents are misinformed or simply not informed by
the people who are supposed to be providing services for them. If your
kid's doctor says he can't do something, you generally assume he can't.
~ Perhaps instead of trying to paint the mother as an abuser, you might
instead try to suggest some constructive solutions to the problem.
In the end, most people who have disabled children aren't prepared for
it by any means. Some stop caring because it hurts too much, or for
more selfish reasons. Others, like Loretta appears to be doing, simply
muddle through and do the best they can. She looked for help from
someone -- in this case her boyfriend. He came here. Luckily, we were
able to offer some suggestions that will hopefully be fruitful.
Susan
P.S.-- I know that it is easy for someone used to working with the
disabled persons, especially children, to be critical. Believe me, I
wouldn't have gone about things nearly the same way Loretta did.
However, most parents don't have ten years to interact with and support
many children with a variety of disabilities, home lives, and outlooks
before they are handed a disabled child of their own. They just try to
deal with it as they go without getting overwhelmed.
*Cognative dissonance, in lamen's terms, means that one has two ideas in
one's head that are in opposition to one another, causing barfight-like
chaos to break out in one's psyche :)
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GoldenMan54
a TNT Flip
peter
> what was done by the mother was sexual abuse pure and simple.
First, we do not know if this boy likes or does not like what is going
on. Maybe the mother has a good empathy and just found out a dream of
the boy, at least we have to start from this, and certainly not from the
"abusive drift". Maybe the psychic/spiritual relationship between the
mother and her son is good and close. If I remember well, the boy had
erection when the mother nursed him. This does not seem, at least to me,
like the boy felt too much uncomfortable.
Second, I do not accept that computers and books and "disabled teen
list" and similar devices could replace the real feelings, the real
physical experiences, the function of nerve endings. I think: never.
Third, the mother does not seem pedophilic since she wants to make a
normal relationship with the man who brought this story here. (Are there
pedophilic women at all?)
Fourth, mothers are always important in the sexual development of
(mainly) the boys. The maximum harm of this maternal care is that the
boy will depend psychically on the mother too much. As far as I see,
this is quite frequent.
Finally, sexual abuse is really dangerous if comes from a male, and may
have very destroying both for young females and males.
I alwasy find a little funny the fear of sexual abuse by a female on a
male. As somebody wrote here, males are usually satisfied by this type
of "abuse". And I repeat what I wrote before, of course a more open
life, encounters by other disabled and/or non disabled boys and girls
would be the best. But if no chance, this way is not so bad as you think
of it.
The only question for me is the mood during this "maternal care".
If it is OK, I think there is no real problem there. If no, that is
problematic. This is why I proposed Sammy to relax and smile.
the best, peter
suzee
> Finally, sexual abuse is really dangerous if comes from a male, and may
> have very destroying both for young females and males.
> I alwasy find a little funny the fear of sexual abuse by a female on a
> male. As somebody wrote here, males are usually satisfied by this type
> of "abuse". And I repeat what I wrote before, of course a more open
> life, encounters by other disabled and/or non disabled boys and girls
> would be the best. But if no chance, this way is not so bad as you think
> of it.
I'll have to put in that sexual abuse from the mother, whether the child
is boy or girl, can be just as devastating to the child as if it came
from a male. If not more so. Men are mostly the abusers, but women can
sexually abuse their children too.
sue
Blind Dyke
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Blind Dyke wrote:
>
> <snip>
> |
> | First, what was done by the mother was sexual abuse pure and simple.
> | It is no different than any adult who has sex with or sexually fondles
> | any child -- disabled or not. While I don't know that she fits the
> | traditional definition of a pediphiliac, she is abusing her son in a
> | variety of ways -- via paternalism.
>
> You seem to be operating under the presumptin that the mother has some
> clue about what raising a disabled son entails other than the purely
> logistical aspects. After nearly 10 years of working with parents of
> disabled children, I can tell you that it is often not the case.
> Remember, the fates don't check to see that you live in a lefty-urban or
> suburban neighborhood before giving you a disabled child.
No I am not operating under the assumption that the mother has a clue
-- I quite clearly stated she is clueless. Her cluelessness is her
own fault. I too have experience in the field -- as someone who grew
up with their disabilities (I've multiple), as an activist, and as
someone who has worked with parents of Disabled kids as well as kids
and adults with disabilities. While I know that some people like to
claim they don't know anything, when asked if they tried looking on
the internet for information or going to a support group or contacting
the local Independent Living Center (ILC) or picking up a magazine
written by and about our lives, the answer is always the same. They
say no.
But beyond all that, in this society it is considered completely
inappropriate behavior for a grown adult to have sex of any kind with
a minor. In fact, it's considered so inappropriate that there are
specific laws protecting children from this kind of abuse. This has
nothing to do with "lefty urban" or "suburban" or "inner city" or
"poor rural podunk". It has to do with the abuse of a child who, as a
minor, cannot give consent and is being psychologically damaged by
this abuse.
>
> It is very common for a parent to learn that their child is disabled and
> not have any experience with disabled children. Then, if they live in
> an area where the school district is underfunded (not an uncommon
> condition), schools often take advantage of parents who don't know the
> school code inside-and-out by fast-talking them out of appropriate
> (read: expensive) services.
First, it isn't very common for a parent to have a child who is left
handed child either. In fact, in this day and age, you're actually
more likely to have a Disabled child than you are a left handed one
but I digress. The point here is that a parent has an obligation to
protect the child and not to cause harm or break any laws in the
process of raising said child. While I can't be sure, I'm willing to
bet she knew masturbating her son was sex. I'm positive she knew he
was a minor. And I'm fairly sure that she knew that sex between
mother and son (if not, child and adult) is inappropriate behavior and
against the law. With all the court cases coming up against priests,
teachers, etc., she didn't need any educator to tell her those things,
she just needed to be a living and breathing person in this society.
Second, I'm well aware of what school's do. Unlike you, I've first
hand experience. The difference is that regardless of what the school
did or didn't do, did or didn't say, she, as a parent, has an
obligation to her child to be informed and there are plenty of
resources out there that she could have turned to rather than turning
to her hand to solve what she percieved as a problem. As a parent of
a child with a disability, she could have asked for help, she could
have looked for resources. Had she gone on-line, for example, she
could have found a variety of sites talking about sex and disability,
dating and disability, etc. etc. And she could have asked the school
for names and phone numbers of people who could give her guidance --
that doesn't cost a dime for either party so spare me the "very
expensive" BS.
> Also, her insurance provider may limit what
> kind of occupational therapy is available for her son. She could simply
> be uneducated in the lives and lifestyles of disabled persons. Frankly,
> her dispondant attitude is fairly well in keeping with how American
> media treat the disabled, and how many inexperienced individuals see them.
Now if you've worked with parents of children with disabilities, like
paraplegia, you'd know that every state has a Bureau for Children with
Physical and Mental Handicaps as well as a Bureau of Vocational Rehab.
And you'd also know that the Bureau (one and usually both during
childhood) provide money for care. If the child needed a care
attendent (someone to bath, clothe, and care for other personal needs)
or therapy, they would have paid for whatever her insurance wouldn't
cover (and still would given that he's a minor). This information
should have been provided by the medical staff her child deals with,
the school, his case worker, etc. And again, if she needed help and
every single one of these institutions were remiss in their duties,
she still could have asked the various people she encounter who's job
it isn't to provide her with this type of info (i.e. the DME company
that supplied her son's wheelchair, a parent of another child with a
disability at the school, etc.). She could have looked. She didn't.
Without a doubt, she's prescribed to the societal construct of her
son's life as worthless. However, her feelings about the worth of her
son's life and his capabilities cannot justify sexual abuse.
>
> By the way, the word I believe you're searching for is "pedophile" not
> "pedophiliac," which isn't a word in any of my three dictionaries,
> including the psych terms one.
Get a new dictionary. Pedophiliac (a Noun) 1. pedophile. -- adj. 2.
Also, pedophilic of or pertaining to pedophilia. So, no, I wasn't
searching for the correct word. I used the correct term.
> Nor is "paternalism," which appears to
> be a misconstruction based on "paternal" which means "to act in a
> fatherly manner," from the Latin "pater" which means "father."
Again, get a new dictionary. Paternalism (again, a noun) the system,
principle, or practice of managing or governing individuals
businesses, nations, etc. in the manner of a father dealing
benevolently and often intrusively with his children.
The term is used within Disability Studies and Disability Rights
activism to discuss the behavior of the able-bodied with regard to
Disabled people's lives. It is intrusive and unnecessary behavior
that, quite frequently, leads to abuse, neglect, and/or
discrimination. It is the mother's belief that her son cannot and
will not have sex that is paternalistic. It is her masturbating her
son without his asking or his permission -- I'll ignore, for the
moment, that the boy couldn't give consent -- that is paternalistic.
It is her insisting upon bathing her son when he's perfectly capable
of bathing himself that is paternalistic. And it is paternalism that
she would tell him when to masturbate. I'm sorry that you are
unfamiliar with the terms and the concepts. Not surprised but very
sorry you lack an education.
>
> When trying to use technical terms please verify that they exist, and if
> they do exist but are too obscure for the average layperson to be
> familiar with, then please provide a definition for each.
When trying to act like you know more than someone else, it might help
if you actually did. Beyond that, anyone following these posts that
doesn't know these terms, doesn't understand what I meant by IEP, 504
Accommodation Plan, pedophiliac, or anything else could do one of
several things to enlighten themselves. Just like the mother in this
little scenario we're discussing, the only person anyone has to blame,
in the age of information, for their ignorance is themselves.
>
> That said, accusing the mother of pedophilia is counterproductive. It
> will only psychologically damage both her and her son, thus making her
> less able to care for him. (Not to mention that it's a totally
> innaccurate statement, as she did not derive pleasure or satisfaction
> from the act--quite the opposite, the cognative dissonance* involved was
> quite painful for her.)
First, I did not accuse her of being a pedophiliac -- you need to read
-- because, as I mentioned, I am not sure she fits the definition.
However, that does not make her less guilty of sexually abusing her
son. One does not have to gain pleasure from abuse. Like rape, it
isn't about sex. It's about power and control over the survivor of the
abuse. Further, many abusers (both physical and sexual abusers)
frequently feel cognative dissonance and if you knew anything about
psychology and sexual and/or physical abuse, you'd know that --
apparently, you skipped lecture that day. To suggest that stating
that she sexually abused her child, is causing psychological damage to
her and her son, is to suggest two things: 1. This wasn't an already
psychologically damaging event for the child; and 2. That it's more
important to see to her need to be affirmed in her actions than it is
to protect a child from being sexually assaulted. She already isn't
providing appropriate care -- if she was, this would not have happened
and we wouldn't be having this discussion. If this didn't happen so
frequently to Disabled kids (adults that grew up with disabilities are
almost twice likely to report having experienced physical and/or
sexual abuse at the hands of a family member and/or someone who is
directly responsible for their personal care during their childhood
than someone without a disability), I might chalk it up as an anomaly
but it wouldn't change the fact that no child should be sexually or
physically abused. The fact that you are more concerned about the ab
parent's well being than you are the child speaks to your loyalties
and your thoughts about the children of the parents you work for.
>
> Better to let her know that the behavior is unhealthy and unneccessary,
> and educate her on alternatives. This behavior is merely a symptom of
> an underlying problem: lack of education (or, if she has one of the more
> devious healthcare providers, deliberate misinformation) which has led
> to a mother and son who both feel as if his disability is such that he
> can not ever have even the most basic independance. THAT is the problem
> that most needs to be addressed, and I believe that it is, as the OP has
> related that she is seeking additional occupational therapy for the boy.
Are you trying to suggest that she didn't know that sexually abusing a
child is a crime??? Everything else that she is ignorant of -- and
she is quite ignorant -- has nothing to do with whether she committed
a crime. If she did what her boyfriend says she did, she committed a
crime and ignorance of the law (although, in this case, highly
improbable) is no excuse. It does not matter what her intentions
were. It matters what she did.
She may be seeking more OT for the kid, that doesn't change the fact
that she committed a crime against her son, her son is now a survivor
of abuse at the hands of his mother (no pun intended), and you're
saying it's OK because she meant well is inexcusable behavior on your
part. Like other survivors of abuse at the hands of family members,
this kid, according to you, should deny what was done and should
accept that she shouldn't have to accept responsibility for her
actions. According to you, because he's disabled, he deserves no
justice, no protection under the law, and just be happy someone wants
to care for him -- inappropriate or not.
>
> | Having said that, it is also quite clear this woman does not have the
> | vaguest clue as to what her son is capable of doing. If he's a
> | paraplegic, there is no reason in the world why he can't bathe, dress,
> | and take care of himself -- and some medical professional is seriously
> | remiss if they didn't teach the child how to transfer and do simple
> | tasks and my guess is that these things were done. Given that he
> | should have an IEP/504 Accommodation Plan at school, living skills
> | should have been introduced a looooong time ago.
>
> Reread your own paragraph: "...some medical professional is seriously
> remiss..." "..._should_ have an IEP/504..." [emphasis mine] Just
> because doctors SHOULD teach their patients and patients' caregivers
> certain things, and because schools SHOULD provide appropriate services,
> that doesn't mean that they DO. In the end, sadly, some schools and
> most insurance companies are willing to gross disservice to persons like
> this boy in order to save a buck.
This paragraph was not about the crime. It was about all the myriad of
excuses the mother gave to her boyfriend and the commentary from
various people in this group. It was about the fact that more than
one person is negligent in this case with regard to the boy's
well-being. However, none of this, changes the fact that the medical
professional didn't masturbate this kid nor did his teachers. His
mother did and she didn't need a doctor or a teacher or anyone else to
tell her that was inappropriate behavior between an adult and a child.
If she did need that to be told to her then she also has a disability
that has not been appropriately accommodated. I could be wrong, but I
don't think she has a disability of that nature. Yes, by and large,
the entire medical establishment, social services, educators, etc. are
guilty of not knowing or doing their jobs, when it comes to Disabled
people. However, their negligence, while it provided an opportunity
for her to create a co-dependent environment, it did not make her
sexually abuse her son.
>
>
> | So, the mother has
> | no business doing any of the stuff she's doing -- the bathing, the
> | dressing, etc.
>
> Helping is one thing. She can't just go cold turkey on helping him
> because he hasn't recieved the OT to get him up to speed as far as basic
> life tasks. He is, at this point, unable to perform them. However, the
> deficiency has nothing to do with his body, but with his lack of
> education on how to cope with his condition. That can and is being
> remedied now.
This child should have gotten help possibly getting in and out of the
tub when he first became disabled (given what the boyfriend said, he
acquired his disability only a few years ago) but there was no reason
to bath him. Ever. As someone else pointed out, there are transfer
tub benches and shower chairs that cost relatively nothing and are
usually covered by insurance. She doesn't need to go "cold turkey" --
she isn't an addict (or are you going to claim she is addicted to
bathing her son next?). If the boy is capable of masturbating
himself, he's capable of washing himself and she doesn't need to be in
the room. If he hasn't learned how to wash in the 14 years of
existance, then his mother is negligent on that level as well.
>
> | Second, this boy should have the opportunity to explore sex on his own
> | and there is no reason why he can't.
>
> And the mother is doing her best to facilitate that. Heck, she even
> bought him a subscription to web porn. Unfortunately, sexuality of
> disabled persons, especially those this young, is very hard to learn
> about because in the US it is not considered PC to discuss it.
Supplying porn is something pedophiliacs do not mothers who are trying
to facilitate learning about and exploring sex and sexuality. As for
sexuality of Disabled people... if it's your child and you truly care
for your child, you'll insist upon getting information. And while
some people may feel Disabled people don't or shouldn't have sex and,
therefore, it shouldn't be discussed, it does not mean that
information isn't readily available from a wide variety of sources.
All one has to do is look and, given what the boyfriend stated, she
didn't even try to find it. She, like you, presumed it was rare or
non-existant. Again, that is no one's fault but hers.
>
> | If he has access to a computer,
> | then there are a variety of Disabled Teen lists. There are also a
> | variety of books, support groups, state agencies, clubs and
> | organizations all over the country where he can learn from other
> | Disabled people how they approached dating, etc.
>
> I think that meeting other disabled teens would be very valuable for
> both the boy and his mother, however I hate it when people encourage the
> disabled to seek out only other disabled persons for socialization. I
> believe that it makes those people feel farther apart from society as a
> whole, and that it is very limiting in general, as the disabled portion
> of any community is generally quite a bit smaller than the community as
> a whole.
I gave one example that specifically mentioned Disabled people and you
assumed I meant that's all they should seek out. The example was a
specific resource for the boy -- adults aren't allowed on those lists
-- so that he might get some information from other kids, his peers,
who might be able to suggest various things they've done to explore
their sexuality. Given his age and what just happened to him, he
might not feel so comfortable around adults when asking about sex. It
was not for the mother, she's hurt one too many kids already. There
are also a variety of books that discuss, from a Disabled person's
perspective sex as well as a ton of other sources that the mother and
child can both access fairly easily. As for your commentary on
seeking community, as a member of the largest minority group in this
country I can attest that it is not as hard as you believe it to be.
Like many "helpers" of Disabled people, you've assumed a very negative
stance on finding community. This is not a nationalistic stance --
I'm sorry, a stance that seeks exclusivity of the group (i.e. the
Nation of Islam). It is rather an acknowledgement that the people who
have experienced prejudice and discrimination of the kind he is
currently experiencing and will experience in the future are far more
capable of providing him with information he needs than a bunch of
people who don't know because they haven't been through it. None of
this means he should only be around other Disabled people. It simply
means that, if his mother and/or he had sought out Disability Rights
organizations, Independent Living Centers or the like, this probably
wouldn't have happened because someone would have not-so-nicely
straightened this mother out (probably another mother of a Disabled
kid who's joined the movement) and all would have become better
informed individuals. Her and her son remaining outside the Disabled
community and relying on the larger community for their information
and beliefs is what got this ball rolling.
>
> | This kid's life does not have to be a tragedy. It's only a tragedy
> | that, in the information age, no one appears to bother to look for
> | information.
>
> And, all too often, parents are misinformed or simply not informed by
> the people who are supposed to be providing services for them. If your
> kid's doctor says he can't do something, you generally assume he can't.
> ~ Perhaps instead of trying to paint the mother as an abuser, you might
> instead try to suggest some constructive solutions to the problem.
Instead of ignoring a crime, you could approach it constructively. I
already have -- I've taken the actions any responsible adult would do
when they believe a child is being abused. I reported it. As for
suggestions for the mother beyond the one's I already posted, clearly
she doesn't want any. No parent of a Disabled child who has truly
cared about their kid has believed everything they've been told by
doctors and other pseudo-professionals -- the kid would be dead if
they did. They've bothered to make themselves more informed. They've
bothered to look things up, read, ask questions of multiple
individuals and, even sometimes, becomes involved in Disability
Rights, this clearly did not happen and, I doubt it will. Hopefully,
the kid gets some help dealing with the abuse. Hopefully, the
para-professionals he has to deal with in his life are not like you.
Hopefully, they believe it is never OK to abuse children, disabled or
not. Unfortunately, the odds are against him.
>
> In the end, most people who have disabled children aren't prepared for
> it by any means. Some stop caring because it hurts too much, or for
> more selfish reasons. Others, like Loretta appears to be doing, simply
> muddle through and do the best they can. She looked for help from
> someone -- in this case her boyfriend. He came here. Luckily, we were
> able to offer some suggestions that will hopefully be fruitful.
>
> Susan
>
> P.S.-- I know that it is easy for someone used to working with the
> disabled persons, especially children, to be critical. Believe me, I
> wouldn't have gone about things nearly the same way Loretta did.
> However, most parents don't have ten years to interact with and support
> many children with a variety of disabilities, home lives, and outlooks
> before they are handed a disabled child of their own. They just try to
> deal with it as they go without getting overwhelmed.
You miss the point entirely. This isn't about disability. It's about
a crime. That isn't being critical of parenting skills (BTW, you
really do need to quit projecting your positionality onto others).
It's stating a fact that a crime has been committed and that it could
have easily been avoided. Regardless of her intent or her knowledge,
she committed a crime against a child. That you feel it is excusable
because the kid is disabled says alot about you.
Blind Dyke
> Blind Dyke wrote:
>
> > what was done by the mother was sexual abuse pure and simple.
>
> First, we do not know if this boy likes or does not like what is going
> on. Maybe the mother has a good empathy and just found out a dream of
> the boy, at least we have to start from this, and certainly not from the
> "abusive drift". Maybe the psychic/spiritual relationship between the
> mother and her son is good and close. If I remember well, the boy had
> erection when the mother nursed him. This does not seem, at least to me,
> like the boy felt too much uncomfortable.
It does not matter if the boy liked it or not. It is against the law
for an adult to perform any sex act with a minor regardless of their
reason or intent and regardless of consent on the child's part
(because children cannot give consent). Yes, the boy had an erection
and women sometimes respond when being raped, it doesn't make it any
less rape or abuse and, if you think it does, then you have a problem.
>
> Second, I do not accept that computers and books and "disabled teen
> list" and similar devices could replace the real feelings, the real
> physical experiences, the function of nerve endings. I think: never.
>
I never said that computers or books or listservs were a replacement
for the "real". I said that if the mother was trying to help her son,
there were a variety of legal and appropriate ways of doing just that.
I said that it might be beneficial for the boy to discuss sex and
dating with his peers to find out what they've done. The boy could
and should date, flirt, masturbate, etc. and he doesn't need his
mother for any of those things.
> Third, the mother does not seem pedophilic since she wants to make a
> normal relationship with the man who brought this story here. (Are there
> pedophilic women at all?)
First, pedophilia does not mean that one does not have adult relations
too. Second, I never claimed she was a pedophiliac. I said she
sexually abused her son. There is a difference.
>
> Fourth, mothers are always important in the sexual development of
> (mainly) the boys. The maximum harm of this maternal care is that the
> boy will depend psychically on the mother too much. As far as I see,
> this is quite frequent.
Apparently you know very little about sexual abuse and children and
simply like regurgitating a really screwed up version of Freud.
Statistically speaking, the sexual abuse of children at the hands of
either males or females adds to the likelihood that the adult survivor
will experience various psychological disabilities, problems creating
and maintaining relationships. It also often affects their jobs,
education and social life, increases the chances of suicide and a
variety of other negative consequences.
>
> Finally, sexual abuse is really dangerous if comes from a male, and may
> have very destroying both for young females and males.
> I alwasy find a little funny the fear of sexual abuse by a female on a
> male. As somebody wrote here, males are usually satisfied by this type
> of "abuse". And I repeat what I wrote before, of course a more open
> life, encounters by other disabled and/or non disabled boys and girls
> would be the best. But if no chance, this way is not so bad as you think
> of it.
Clearly you've a weird concept of "not so bad" given the variety of
problems that are known to arise when a child (male or female) is
sexually abused by any adult (male or female). To suggest that it's
OK for female adults to sexually abuse a child but it is not OK for
men to sexually abuse children is incredibly sexist and insensitive
and helps promote the problem we have in this society concerning male
rape and how we don't deal with it.
peter
> I'll have to put in that sexual abuse from the mother, whether the child
> is boy or girl, can be just as devastating to the child as if it came
> from a male. If not more so. Men are mostly the abusers, but women can
> sexually abuse their children too.
In my environment, and during about 50 years, I never heard of a man
who's later life was ruined (or really badly influenced) by any type of
female sexual molestation.
Maybe certain ill and sadistic girls could do this with very young and
inhibited boys. Certainly not with 14 year ones.
How females really can harm is the scoffing of the manhood of a teenager
boy. That can realy hurt, and ruin the future life, I think.
The main reason of this, I guess, is that healthy boys are usually proud
of their penis, and does not mind if somebody takes care about it
positively.
The best, Peter
Norton
>:)))
>peter
Thank you!
Norton.
peter
> It does not matter if the boy liked it or not. It is against the law
> for an adult to perform any sex act with a minor regardless of their
> reason or intent and regardless of consent on the child's part
> (because children cannot give consent). Yes, the boy had an erection
> and women sometimes respond when being raped, it doesn't make it any
> less rape or abuse and, if you think it does, then you have a problem.
Right.
>>Second, I do not accept that computers and books and "disabled teen
>>list" and similar devices could replace the real feelings, the real
>>physical experiences, the function of nerve endings. I think: never.
The boy could
> and should date, flirt, masturbate, etc. and he doesn't need his
> mother for any of those things.
My opinion is almost the same, but I added that if there is no other way
or almost no other way, this is OK for me.
And now I instance the biblical story of Lot and his daughters.
For me the question is the sexual prospects that this boy is going to
have in his puberty. If it seems eventless and sad, I just say OK.
> Apparently you know very little about sexual abuse and children and
> simply like regurgitating a really screwed up version of Freud.
Maybe.
> Clearly you've a weird concept of "not so bad" given the variety of
> problems that are known to arise when a child (male or female) is
> sexually abused by any adult (male or female).
Well, around here "sexual abuse" is not the main keyword, that is true.
The complex function of a relationship is somehow more important, or at
least, I think this.
The best, Peter
Blind Dyke
>
> >>Second, I do not accept that computers and books and "disabled teen
> >>list" and similar devices could replace the real feelings, the real
> >>physical experiences, the function of nerve endings. I think: never.
>
> The boy could
> > and should date, flirt, masturbate, etc. and he doesn't need his
> > mother for any of those things.
>
> My opinion is almost the same, but I added that if there is no other way
> or almost no other way, this is OK for me.
There is never a good reason, in this day and age, for an adult to
have sex with a child -- I'm not even going to address the problems
with your biblical reference. Anyone who feels they can come up with
a legitimate example of a scenario where an adult should have sex with
a child, go ahead and throw it out. I'll be more than happy to give
you a legal, reasonable, and non-child-damaging alternative.
Norton
Well, rather than have a flame-war over it, I'd be much
more interested in another age-old argument: how old does
a person have to be to no longer be a child for the purpose
of sex?
Norton.
illecebra
Hash: SHA1
Norton wrote:
<snip>
| Well, rather than have a flame-war over it, I'd be much
| more interested in another age-old argument: how old does
| a person have to be to no longer be a child for the purpose
| of sex?
|
| Norton.
|
The thing that most people seem either unable or unwilling to see is
that there is no set age. People mature at different rates. I think
that I was thinking about sex in an adult manner at 14 or 15, however I
don't think that that is the norm (at least it wasn't in my high
school!). I knew people in college who were 20+ and still thought about
sex like children.
Perhaps it would make more sense to discuss what makes someone a child
or an adult with respect to sex? (It certainly isn't the number of
candles on your cake!)
Susan
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S. M.
It's Culteral!
The problem is cutural, not by nature.
I remeber of hearing of a greek or roman emperer who maried a yung boy
he was deeply in love with, no problems untell the boy(then a yung
man) drownd in the Nile and the emprer never traveld again, leaving
all the roads in disreapear.
Beond that in Tiland where this stuff is vary leagal, there are some
instances of people, spacificly Junier& Seanyer in which it works out.
And if you'r going to go the bible rout than I sugest you go with the
new covenent:
King James Version
Hebrews 8
Hbr 8:9
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the
day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of
Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them
not, saith the Lord.
Hbr 8:10
For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind,
and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they
shall be to me a people:
Hbr 8:11
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his
brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least
to the greatest.
Hbr 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and
their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hbr 8:13
In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now
that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
My advice, (if he isn't a full grown man on his own by now) is over
come the guilt and just let it hapen. No hold backs. No fear.
Sit back and enjoy the ride.
peter
>>My opinion is almost the same, but I added that if there is no other way
>>or almost no other way, this is OK for me.
>
>
> There is never a good reason, in this day and age, for an adult to
> have sex with a child -- I'm not even going to address the problems
> with your biblical reference. Anyone who feels they can come up with
> a legitimate example of a scenario where an adult should have sex with
> a child, go ahead and throw it out. I'll be more than happy to give
> you a legal, reasonable, and non-child-damaging alternative.
As I have already written I do not know the present possibilities and
the puberty prospects of this boy. If there is a way to send him in a
nice community where mates of both sex are kind and give him all the
attention he needs, then you are right, it is very bad/rude deed to
close and isolate him in a room and do that what we are talking about.
But if the case is the opposite; nobody is around him, nobody touches
him, nobody smiles at him, nobody gives any positive excitement to him,
I still think that "it is not so bad" if the mother try to fulfil all of
these important experiences.
As perhaps you, I also deal with this case in my mind.
I just ask myself that what kind of latter disadvantages may come from
the mother's act.
Because, I think, we ALWAYS have to regard this.
Laws usually intend to block the possible harms/torts.
Maybe I am wrong, but I think that if the situation is that what I
assume (no real chance for an acceptable puberty), than no real
disadvantages can come.
Of course, if he was an absolute healthy boy, the disadvantages were
obvious.
I am almost sure of that from the mother's side this is not "having sex"
as you write. He helps the boy as I helped my children to helping to
blow their nose several years ago.
Of course, I did it with good mood and smile.
And finally, you wrote me "weird".
Regarding this mother as "having sex" can also be "weird" :)
The best, Peter
Delila
>
> The thing that most people seem either unable or unwilling to see is
> that there is no set age. People mature at different rates. I think
> that I was thinking about sex in an adult manner at 14 or 15, however I
> don't think that that is the norm (at least it wasn't in my high
> school!). I knew people in college who were 20+ and still thought about
> sex like children.
That's probably due to the repressed puritanical culture here in the US.
D.
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suzeeq
> Well, rather than have a flame-war over it, I'd be much
> more interested in another age-old argument: how old does
> a person have to be to no longer be a child for the purpose
> of sex?
This country's laws are written in a way that does not distinguish
between a child of 7 and a teenager of 14. They're both children. Never
mind that the 14 yo has a baby of her own...
sue
LeylaBunni
abuse personally. It prevents them from being able to trust women- and also,
because their mother was in such a power position over them when she took
advantage, they begin having violent power fantasies about hurting women
because they are so angry at being betrayed. There are many psychologists
who report those results are typical of a boy/teen molested by his mother.
I know a lot of men have the "fantasy" of sex between mother and son- but
the fantasy is not the reality.
peter wrote in message <40E8477E...@yahoo.com>...
LeylaBunni
daughter the difference between "right" and "wrong" would be far more clear.
Blind Dyke wrote in message
<955f3138.04070...@posting.google.com>...
Norton
>Norton wrote:
><snip>
>| Well, rather than have a flame-war over it, I'd be much
>| more interested in another age-old argument: how old does
>| a person have to be to no longer be a child for the purpose
>| of sex?
>|
>| Norton.
>|
>The thing that most people seem either unable or unwilling to see is
>that there is no set age. People mature at different rates. I think
>that I was thinking about sex in an adult manner at 14 or 15, however I
>don't think that that is the norm (at least it wasn't in my high
>school!). I knew people in college who were 20+ and still thought about
>sex like children.
>Perhaps it would make more sense to discuss what makes someone a child
>or an adult with respect to sex? (It certainly isn't the number of
>candles on your cake!)
>Susan
I fully agree with you. My personal opinion is that there
is no set age.
In thinking about this I came up with the following somewhat
inevitably fuzzy idea. Sex is NOT OK between people who stand
in an unequal relationship. By that I mean a boss and an
employee, a teacher and a student, a parent and a child, etc.
I happen to feel that two 16-year olds usually are competent
enough (or should be educated enough) to have sex. But a 40
year old may NOT necessarily be OK in having sex with a 16
year old. Why? Because the 40 year old may be seen as an
authority figure or whatever resulting in the 16 year old feeling
coerced.
On the other hand, there can be a relationship between a 40
year old and a 16 year old where there is no coercion, real
or implied.
In other words, for me it comes down to coercion and its opposite
here, free consent.
Now I'd exclude from this children who do not, by age or
education, understand the ramifications of having sex. What
that age is varies from child to child.
Just my two cents... ;-)
Norton.
suzeeq
> In thinking about this I came up with the following somewhat
> inevitably fuzzy idea. Sex is NOT OK between people who stand
> in an unequal relationship. By that I mean a boss and an
> employee, a teacher and a student, a parent and a child, etc.
>
> I happen to feel that two 16-year olds usually are competent
> enough (or should be educated enough) to have sex. But a 40
> year old may NOT necessarily be OK in having sex with a 16
> year old. Why? Because the 40 year old may be seen as an
> authority figure or whatever resulting in the 16 year old feeling
> coerced.
>
> On the other hand, there can be a relationship between a 40
> year old and a 16 year old where there is no coercion, real
> or implied.
And what about a relationship between a 20 yo and a 16 yo? Aren't they
more like peers? Is 25 and 16 too far apart in years and/or authority?
(unless the 25 yo is a boss or supervisor, of course)
sue
illecebra
Hash: SHA1
suzeeq wrote:
<snip>
|
| And what about a relationship between a 20 yo and a 16 yo? Aren't they
| more like peers? Is 25 and 16 too far apart in years and/or authority?
| (unless the 25 yo is a boss or supervisor, of course)
|
| sue
|
I think that it depends totally on the case. I mean, I remember being
at a conference once and spending a great deal of time with a guy whom I
was really hitting it off with, just talking, flirting, etc. Well, when
it was my turn to present, the person who introduced me mentioned what
high school I went to in the introduction. That guy just about had a
heart attack. Too bad.
I had hoped that we could go out for tea/coffee/whatever after the
conference (where we wouldn't be under so many eyes) and I could
tactfully approach the age thing. It probably would have sent him
screaming anyway, but I had hoped...
The thing is, had it not been for statutory rape laws, would he have
freaked on me? I'll never know.
Would the relationship, had we ever had one, have been so unbalanced
that it would amount to rape regardless of actual consent? Hell no. I
saw him as a colleague, not an authority figure, and I've never been the
type to get pushed around by anyone. Frankly, I think that were we
miles apart in maturity, we wouldn't have hit it off so well, and he'd
have wondered about my age just from talking to me.
That's just one example of many. My life got easier once I was no
longer jailbait.
Susan
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Norton
Yup. I agree. Assuming that both are compentent and consent
I see nothing wrong with it.
Norton.
peter
> Peter- you couldn't be more wrong. I have known a few cases of female sexual
> abuse personally.
Thank you for your straight answer and let me to separate two issues.
1/ The *opinion* on the story of this disabled boy & his mother, and
2/ generally the mother-son relationship.
Years ago I had a psychologist gf who once told me that;
time-to-time she meets mothers or just the influence of these mothers
"who just should had been hanged up", because of destroying their son's
life.
So I know that mothers can be dangerously overwhelming. Oh, yes!
But I never heard of such a mother playing with the penis of her 14y old
son, just for her own fun. I think the opposite; such mothers make their
sons too much shy and inhibited by dislike or even hate the son's
developing manhood.
But I am really open to read and learn of any refuting cases.
Thanks in advance, peter
Tom Allen
illecebra <vyyrpro...@yahoo.com> informed us:
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
| Hash: SHA1
|
| suzeeq wrote:
|
| <snip>
||
|| And what about a relationship between a 20 yo and a 16 yo? Aren't
|| they more like peers? Is 25 and 16 too far apart in years and/or
|| authority? (unless the 25 yo is a boss or supervisor, of course)
||
|| sue
||
|
| I think that it depends totally on the case. I mean, I remember being
| at a conference once and spending a great deal of time with a guy
| whom I was really hitting it off with, just talking, flirting, etc.
| Well, when it was my turn to present, the person who introduced me
| mentioned what high school I went to in the introduction. That guy
| just about had a heart attack. Too bad.
|
| I had hoped that we could go out for tea/coffee/whatever after the
| conference (where we wouldn't be under so many eyes) and I could
| tactfully approach the age thing. It probably would have sent him
| screaming anyway, but I had hoped...
|
| The thing is, had it not been for statutory rape laws, would he have
| freaked on me? I'll never know.
Susan, if it makes you feel any better, I broke up with my 15 yo gf in
high school when I turned 18 at the end of the school year. The "jail
bait" thing was just too nerve wracking. That, and she wouldn't put out.
No, seriously, she had some weird thing - she would kiss like there was
no tomorrow, but no touchie-feelie at all. Hands on waist, and no
roaming. Ever. I once brushed some grass and dirt off her butt and she
got pretty ticked off. And when I was in college, I didn't want to be
bothered with the high school girls that would come around. A few were
very nice, intelligent, and hot, but the age thing weirded me out.
It's a cultural thing - that "statutory rape" bit was drummed into our
heads since we were 15 by older friends and other neighborhood kids.
Tom
illecebra
Hash: SHA1
Tom Allen wrote:
<snip>
| Susan, if it makes you feel any better, I broke up with my 15 yo gf in
| high school when I turned 18 at the end of the school year. The "jail
| bait" thing was just too nerve wracking. That, and she wouldn't put out.
| No, seriously, she had some weird thing - she would kiss like there was
| no tomorrow, but no touchie-feelie at all. Hands on waist, and no
| roaming. Ever. I once brushed some grass and dirt off her butt and she
| got pretty ticked off. And when I was in college, I didn't want to be
| bothered with the high school girls that would come around. A few were
| very nice, intelligent, and hot, but the age thing weirded me out.
|
| It's a cultural thing - that "statutory rape" bit was drummed into our
| heads since we were 15 by older friends and other neighborhood kids.
|
| Tom
|
|
That's sad. A lot of mature uner-18 people miss out on potential good
relationships just because they are jailbait. Even more immature
over-18 people think that they are adults just because the law says so,
and run around making some of the stupidest decisions imaginable.
I loathe statutory rape laws.
Susan
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Blind Dyke
> Blind Dyke wrote:
>
> >>My opinion is almost the same, but I added that if there is no other way
> >>or almost no other way, this is OK for me.
> >
> >
> > There is never a good reason, in this day and age, for an adult to
> > have sex with a child -- I'm not even going to address the problems
> > with your biblical reference. Anyone who feels they can come up with
> > a legitimate example of a scenario where an adult should have sex with
> > a child, go ahead and throw it out. I'll be more than happy to give
> > you a legal, reasonable, and non-child-damaging alternative.
>
> As I have already written I do not know the present possibilities and
> the puberty prospects of this boy. If there is a way to send him in a
> nice community where mates of both sex are kind and give him all the
> attention he needs, then you are right, it is very bad/rude deed to
> close and isolate him in a room and do that what we are talking about.
There is no reason why a 14 year old boy who uses a wheelchair can't
socialize with people his own age and explore sex and sexuality with
them. There is no reason for his mother to masturbate the boy when
he's perfectly capable of doing it himself. I realize that you've
probably got Tiny Tim stuck in your brain from too much MDA telathon
watching but Jerry's kids are only a reality in this society because
people continue to believe the BS and not because it actually is or
needs to be true.
>
> But if the case is the opposite; nobody is around him, nobody touches
> him, nobody smiles at him, nobody gives any positive excitement to him,
> I still think that "it is not so bad" if the mother try to fulfil all of
> these important experiences.
The only reason any child with a disability isn't socializing with his
or her peers is because the child isn't being given the opportunity to
socialize (because this society still discriminates) and/or because
the child doesn't know how to socialize. If he isn't being given the
opportunity to socialize, mom having sex with him isn't going to
change the discriminatory environment around the child and, therefore,
she creates a self-fullfilling prophecy about the inabilities of her
son rather than actually helping change the discrimination her son
faces now and in the future. If the boy doesn't know how to
socialize, then having Mom have sex with him is not helping the
situation. Eventually, he'll have to get out there and socialize with
his peers and mommy isn't helping him do that by jerking him off.
She's implying by her behavior that he is socially undesirable. Even
if she never expresses her stupidity outloud, she's telling him with
her act -- yes, as people have stated, a culturally created bad act --
that he will never be worthy of any "real" sexual relations because if
he were worthy of "real" sexual relations she would not do what she is
doing. This isn't helping him any more than it would help a girl if
she were forcably masturbated by either of her parents.
>
> As perhaps you, I also deal with this case in my mind.
> I just ask myself that what kind of latter disadvantages may come from
> the mother's act.
> Because, I think, we ALWAYS have to regard this.
> Laws usually intend to block the possible harms/torts.
Yes, they do and what the negative results are from sexual abuse of a
child (disabled or non-disabled) are statistically documented. Unlike
you, I know the statistics for children with disabilities. I know
that they are more likely to experience both physical and sexual abuse
at the hands of family members and care attendents. I know they are
more likely to drop out of school than any other minority group (48%
drop out rate which is twice that of the next highest group). I know
that this kid because of the abuse, because of discrimination based
upon disability, and because he is obviously not connected to the
Disabled community or getting the information he needs to be an active
and healthy 14 year old kid, is now tens times more likely to drop out
of school, kill himself, and/or become even more socially inept. Yet
you insist this, somehow, has more positive aspects than negatives.
>
> Maybe I am wrong, but I think that if the situation is that what I
> assume (no real chance for an acceptable puberty), than no real
> disadvantages can come.
>
> Of course, if he was an absolute healthy boy, the disadvantages were
> obvious.
See and the problem is you assume based upon your prejudices that he
can't be an active, healthy teenaged boy. And that's your problem --
your prejudice. Unfortunately, your sickness is also the mother's
sickness. Unlike you, I know that it is possible, very possible, for
him to be a healthy boy. By all accounts and except for the now
psychological problems he'll have to face because of what's occured,
he is a healthy teenaged boy. The only thing preventing him from
leading a healthy teenaged life is bigotry and prejudice that has been
expressed by his mother's actions.
>
> I am almost sure of that from the mother's side this is not "having sex"
> as you write. He helps the boy as I helped my children to helping to
> blow their nose several years ago.
> Of course, I did it with good mood and smile.
It doesn't matter how she justified what she did. As has been stated
before, pedophiles frequently state they are "helping" the child and
so do abusive parents. She isn't helping the kid learn socially
acceptable behavior such as blowing one's nose. It can't be that she
is doing something for him that he can't do for himself either given
the post. So, you're analogy is off. If she were encouraging her son
to go to dances, take someone out on a date, have a friend over, etc.
then she would be teaching her son socially acceptable behavior (and
yes, her son can do all of these things). She isn't doing her job as
a parent. She is causing harm and there are no benefits.
peter
> There is no reason why a 14 year old boy who uses a wheelchair can't
> socialize with people his own age and explore sex and sexuality with
> them.
Maybe. If you are right in above detail (there are possibilities), than
the motherreally makes a mistake.
As illecebra wrote: "reinforces her view of him as less able than he is
(or can be), and isn't good for his self-efficacy either"...
and this is true..
There is no reason for his mother to masturbate the boy when
> he's perfectly capable of doing it himself.
Maybe yes, maybe not. I am not absolute convinced about this. That would
be (can be) too introspective without any external stimuli, e.g. certain
chat about it with age-mates, etc.
> The only reason any child with a disability isn't socializing with his
> or her peers is because the child isn't being given the opportunity to
> socialize (because this society still discriminates) and/or because
> the child doesn't know how to socialize. If he isn't being given the
> opportunity to socialize, mom having sex with him isn't going to
> change the discriminatory environment around the child and, therefore,
> she creates a self-fullfilling prophecy about the inabilities of her
> son rather than actually helping change the discrimination her son
> faces now and in the future.
Huh! Nice sentences, thanks.
Anyway you are right, if the society does not give that opportunities
that are important to become mentally as healthy as it is possible in
his situation, somehow he will be aggrieved emotionally. The question is
that; if this mother worsens the boy's life, or alleviates the misery of
loneliness.
This isn't helping him any more than it would help a girl if
> she were forcably masturbated by either of her parents.
I assumed certain non-verbal agreement, just like in eating.
> See and the problem is you assume based upon your prejudices that he
> can't be an active, healthy teenaged boy. And that's your problem --
> your prejudice. Unfortunately, your sickness is also the mother's
> sickness.
:)) maybe again. I really assumed at least a relatively proper
discernment in the mothers's resolution.
Since I am far and she is present.
If she were encouraging her son
> to go to dances, take someone out on a date, have a friend over, etc.
> then she would be teaching her son socially acceptable behavior (and
> yes, her son can do all of these things). She isn't doing her job as
> a parent. She is causing harm and there are no benefits.
Right.
My stipulation was that above positive possibilities are not available.
Are you sure they are available?
The best, peter
peter
> I would be willing to bet that were it a father masturbating his disabled
> daughter the difference between "right" and "wrong" would be far more clear.
Hah! This is a clever note/argument, thank you for it.
I have two dauthers,
luckily both are happy and healthy, praise be to god!
In a similar case, if I had to see, day by day, maybe for years, that
nobody comes to my dauther to give her any friendship, smile, attention
etc. and when bathing her I could realize her sex drive and excitement,
I think I would behave almost the same as this mother did.
First I would be embarassed, then accidentally/garadulally learn that
she does or doesn't like my touch, and if the feedback were positive
(?), I would somehow express that all things depend on her: if she
needed my help she could call on me.
This is why I mentioned that the open communication is very important in
this situation. But I think, I could find the verbal and not verbal ways
of the mutual understanding, always allowing her to control the events.
That is true, this would be illegal, so dangerous in this sense, and
would certainly affect my own soul, too.
But I would feel that it was my duty.
The best, Peter
LeylaBunni
you are in a position to tell them any of the following phrases:
"Do your homework."
"Clean your room."
"Don't talk back."
"You're grounded."
"I'm giving you detention."
"I'm giving you an F."
"Your promotion is on the line."
"You're fired."
Norton wrote in message ...
Man from South
Beer Gogglers
good/bad decisions. It all depends on the individual.
Delila
"Norton" <nor...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ccp7ai$dl8$7...@reader2.panix.com...
>
> Well, rather than have a flame-war over it, I'd be much
> more interested in another age-old argument: how old does
> a person have to be to no longer be a child for the purpose
> of sex?
In most cultures, including western culture until quite recently, as soon
as they were 'nubile' they weren't considered children anymore.
LeylaBunni
Peter: The mother/son sex fantasy is common among men who's own mother was
prudish and sex is a forbidden topic not to be discussed. Also if the mother
is physically cold and does not give hugs and affection.
The mind responds with a fantasy of a warm sexual mother.
Think about some anonymous son having sex with his mother. Sexy right? Now
think about *you* having sex with *your own* mom. See the difference?
The fantasy and reality are two separate issues.
This case is very typical in that she is jacking him off. This is the most
common type of mother/son incest. The mother can tell herself they didn't
really have sex so no harm done. What she doesn't realize is that this limit
becomes habitual, making him *impotent* with other women. Going soft before
he ever gets it in. This frustration will make him bitter and resentful.
His relationship with his mother isolates him from his peers because he
never learns things like how to be social, how to flirt, how to date. This
causes him to be insecure and uncomfortable with women.
He has learned how to find sexual security and pleasure only in his mothers
arms.
Also, many of these mothers become jealous and possessive, isolating their
son even more. He is now her mate, and she will be threatened by him seeking
independence and do what she can to shut him down, and shake his self
confidence.
This mother has maneuvered the son into the role of her partner. He has now
stepped into his fathers shoes. There is crushing guilt that goes with this.
Also in many of these cases, when the mother finds a new husband, she cuts
the son off cold. He is no longer man of the house. You can imagine the
rejection and subsequent anger.
Everywhere he turns his mother has *total control* of his sex life, of his
social life.
Now guess what comes next?
He lashes out and wants to take that control back. Many of these men can
only keep an erection by having *violent* sexual fantasies. Many times they
act out on these feelings of guilt and anger. It's one of the key things
they look for in the profile of a serial killer of women. Many times when
they track down the killer he is still living at home with his sexually
controlling mother.
Yes I have known cases personally, and you couldn't imagine the seething
hatred the sons keep bottled up.
One of them spoke often of revenge fantasies where he would go back to rape
his mother after beating her, strapping her to a bed and gagging her. Then,
as a coup de Gras, he planned to stick a piece of butterscotch candy to her
forehead. (She used to give him butterscotch candy after molesting him. She
never used physical force.)
His relationships with women were ..bad. Typical psycho-drama stuff filled
with domestic violence, death threats and restraining orders. Every woman
reminded him of his mother, and he got searing migraines just speaking about
her.
And if you think this case is "unusual" another guy I knew actually *did*
lash out and beat up his mother, throwing her against the wall and pulling a
gun.
I'm sure that doesn't happen in your fantasies.
peter wrote in message <40F28A89...@yahoo.com>...
Norton
> "Norton" <nor...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:ccp7ai$dl8$7...@reader2.panix.com...
> >
> > Well, rather than have a flame-war over it, I'd be much
> > more interested in another age-old argument: how old does
> > a person have to be to no longer be a child for the purpose
> > of sex?
> In most cultures, including western culture until quite recently, as soon
>as they were 'nubile' they weren't considered children anymore.
Yeah, but not today in the US...
Norton.
LeylaBunni
People want to screw kids because they are horny. Stop trying to grand stand
like it's some deep, philosophical, civil rights issue.
"But there are mature teens, and immature adults!"
You and I both know maturity hasn't got a damn thing to do with it.
Can this person live independantly? No.
A fourteen year old cannot drive a car, earn a living, drink a beer, or
vote. They may have the mind of an adult, but are as dependant and helpless
to take care of themselves as any ten year old child.
They can't do simple things like open a bank account or fill out a form.
If there parents were to leave them somewhere they probably wouldn't be able
to find their way back home!
A fourteen year old can not take care of themselves or survive on their own.
I've seen tons of these kids huddled on the sides of roads, living in
abandoned houses, diving in dumpsters, and turning tricks for food.
"But there are intelligent teens!"
I have teen goddaughters and they're very bright girls. But if I were to sit
down, and in a serious tone explain how the moon is really made of green
cheese, they would doubtless believe me.
Because I, as an adult, know more of the world they have *no choice* but to
rely on my judgment. If I wanted to twist that advantage into sex I
certainly could.
I am sickened to know how many people here would do exactly that.
"But it's only a culture difference!"
In these third-world cultures you speak of people still raise goats in their
living rooms and practice voo-doo. I'm sure they screw the kids, but they're
probably also screwing the livestock.
LeylaBunni
like it's some deep, philosophical, civil rights issue.
"But there are mature teens, and immature adults!"
You and I both know maturity hasn't got a damn thing to do with it.
A fourteen year old cannot drive a car, earn a living, drink a beer, or
vote. They may have the mind of an adult, but are as dependent and helpless
to take care of themselves as any ten year old child.
They can't do simple things like open a bank account or fill out a form.
If there parents were to leave them somewhere they probably wouldn't be able
to find their way back home!
I've seen tons of these kids huddled on the sides of roads, living in
abandoned houses, diving in dumpsites, and turning tricks for food.
A fourteen year old can not take care of themselves or survive on their own.
"But there are intelligent teens!"
LeylaBunni
like it's some deep, philosophical, civil rights issue.
"But there are mature teens, and immature adults!"
You and I both know maturity hasn't got a damn thing to do with it.
Can this person live independently? No.
A fourteen year old cannot drive a car, earn a living, drink a beer, or
vote. They may have the mind of an adult, but are as dependent and helpless
to take care of themselves as any ten year old child.
They can't do simple things like open a bank account or fill out a form.
If there parents were to leave them somewhere they probably wouldn't be able
to find their way back home!
I've seen tons of these kids huddled on the sides of roads, living in
abandoned houses, diving in dumpsters, and turning tricks for food.
A fourteen year old can not take care of themselves or survive on their own.
"But there are intelligent teens!"
I have teen goddaughters and they're very bright girls. But if I were to sit
down, and in a serious tone explain how the moon is really made of green
cheese, they would doubtless believe me.
Because I, as an adult, know more of the world they have *no choice* but to
rely on my judgment. If I wanted to twist that advantage into sex I
certainly could.
I am sickened to know how many people here would do exactly that.
"But it's only a culture difference!"
In these third-world cultures you speak of people still raise goats in their
living rooms and practice voo-doo. I'm sure they screw the kids, but they're
probably also screwing the livestock..
illecebra
Hash: SHA1
LeylaBunni wrote:
| People want to screw kids because they are horny. Stop trying to grand
stand
| like it's some deep, philosophical, civil rights issue.
But you're missing the point entirely... young people can want sex,
too... and some are too intelligent and value themselves too highly to
deal with the stupid highschool shennanigans to get it.
| "But there are mature teens, and immature adults!"
|
| You and I both know maturity hasn't got a damn thing to do with it.
Maturity has everything to do with it; maturity bears directly on
ability to consent.
| Can this person live independantly? No.
So you aren't allowed to have sex until you are 100% financially stable
and on your own? Better tell that to all the 25-yo grad students I know
who still do laundry at mom's house and live in the dorms to save money.
| A fourteen year old cannot drive a car, earn a living, drink a beer, or
| vote. They may have the mind of an adult, but are as dependant and
helpless
| to take care of themselves as any ten year old child.
At fourteen, I:
Had been active in local politics for about 5 years. True, I couldn't
vote, but I made my voice heard and I changed how other people voted,
how people in power behaved, how the press saw my issues. That is
power--vote or no vote.
Worked three jobs: one at a banquet hall (nice because it involved lots
of down time and I could do my homework there), one babysitting (the
most stable of the three, and it payed well), and one doing computer
consulting (cash only of course) when I could get it. When I was
thirteen, I was doing all that and working the family farm.
I won't go in to my volunteer activities and other things that caused my
social circle to be closer to my parents' age than mine, as this post
is already quite long.
As an adult:
I still don't drink beer, and can't imagine why on earth you associate
being sober with being "dependent and helpless."
Often made use of public transportation, my bicycle, and my feet to get
places. I know many adults who never bother to get a driver's license.
Vote, but don't have the time or energy to be as involved in the
political process as I'd like.
| They can't do simple things like open a bank account or fill out a form.
True, you need a parent's signature for bank accounts and contracts,
HOWEVER, people CAN survive without a bank account, and if one's parents
aren't idiots, they should be available for document signing as needed.
By the way, at 14, I also handled all the household finances, grocery
shopping, bill paying, etc. for my mentally handicapped aunt.
| If there parents were to leave them somewhere they probably wouldn't
be able
| to find their way back home!
That's just insulting. Young people can be just as resourceful as
adults, if not more so.
| A fourteen year old can not take care of themselves or survive on
their own.
You would be surprised.
| I've seen tons of these kids huddled on the sides of roads, living in
| abandoned houses, diving in dumpsters, and turning tricks for food.
Yes, and I've seen tons of adults doing the same things. What's your
point???
| "But there are intelligent teens!"
|
| I have teen goddaughters and they're very bright girls. But if I were
to sit
| down, and in a serious tone explain how the moon is really made of green
| cheese, they would doubtless believe me.
Then either your goddaughters are mentally handicapped, just plain
gullible, brainwashed to hang on your every word, or you are giving them
nowhere near the credit they deserve.
| Because I, as an adult, know more of the world they have *no choice*
but to
| rely on my judgment.
Not true. There are libararies. There are other people in their lives
to learn from. There's a wide, wide internet out there. Unless they
are locked in a closet with no contact with the outside world (which
brings up a whole other issue--the psychology of extremely abused
children) they can learn the truth.
| If I wanted to twist that advantage into sex I
| certainly could.
Some young people are vulnerable to be taken advantage of. So are some
adults. That's not big news, nor does it prove your point.
There ARE young people who are perfectly capable of carrying on healthy
romantic and/or sexual relationships with older persons, with no
coersion or power imbalance involved.
| I am sickened to know how many people here would do exactly that.
No, we're all about consent here... except maybe GoldenMan... but he's
in my killfile.
| "But it's only a culture difference!"
It really sickens me how our culture fights so hard to keep our young
people children for so long, and then wonders why adults don't act adult.
Many people criticised my parents for "allowing" (they couldn't have
stopped me much if they'd tried) my involvement in politics, working
with abused kids, etc etc. As if letting me "grow up too fast" were a
crime. After all, 9yo's are supposed to play with Barbie Dolls and be
totally ignorant of the politics that effect what kind of school they go
to and whether they'll live in an area overrun with drugs and violence.
By the time I was 14 I had more life experience, confidence, and
self-knowledge than most 20yo's I knew.
| In these third-world cultures you speak of people still raise goats in
their
| living rooms and practice voo-doo. I'm sure they screw the kids, but
they're
| probably also screwing the livestock.
<shudders>
I can't believe people still think like that. (Actually, I can, I just
don't like it.) I bet that when Europeans started colonizing the "new
world" you would have been among the first to start eradicating "those
damn savages" regardless of the fact that their lifestyle, although
simple, had a lot of advantages in comparison with invading cultures.
Throughout my childhood, I had plenty of adults try to exercise the kind
of power you claim all adults have over young people. It only ever
worked once, and I was ill and heavily medicated at the time (long story).
In the end, regardless of age, a whole lot comes down to how much crap
you are willing to take from others. I didn't take much from
anyone--still don't. That was WHY I looked for relationships with older
men when I could. I wasn't willing to deal with what most highschoolers
called a relationship. I wanted someone who would go about a
relationship the same way I did.
Susan
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Tom Allen
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| Hash: SHA1
|
| LeylaBunni wrote:
| | People want to screw kids because they are horny. Stop trying to
| | grand stand like it's some deep, philosophical, civil rights issue.
|
| But you're missing the point entirely... young people can want sex,
| too... and some are too intelligent and value themselves too highly to
| deal with the stupid highschool shennanigans to get it.
|
| | "But there are mature teens, and immature adults!"
| |
| | You and I both know maturity hasn't got a damn thing to do with it.
|
| Maturity has everything to do with it; maturity bears directly on
| ability to consent.
Susan & LLeylla - The truth is somewhere between your postitions. While
I tend to side more with Susan (in part because I also was rather
indepedent at an early age), the fact is that there is no test that can
measure "maturity" (not that we can even define it), nor is there any
"age" at which intelligence and common sense will automatically be
conferred on a person. In fact, one could certainly argue that maturity
is a factor of both experience and the ability to extract information
from experience and apply it to other situations.
I think that most teenagers could be more mature given the opportunity.
However, I also think that our society has conspired to keep opportunity
from spiraling out of our control; that as adults we are more concerned
than ever with the safety and development of our progeney, so we lock
them in schools Monday through Friday, and organize town-wide sports for
them on Saturday and Sunday, and drive them to the nice, safe malls on
odd evenings. We complain about teachers that are "too hard" on them,
make laws that they can't work or have a job until they're 18 (in most
states), and "protect" them in a myriad of other ways. There is a
character on the Simpsons who seems to cry "But what about the
*children* ?" at virtually every controversy. Yup, that's what I'm
talking about. All this protection becomes insulating. Children are too
often raised in a way that actually discourages maturity by taking away
the opportunities to learn to cope with frustration and other difficult
decisions.
The problem though, is that as a society, we need to set some kind of
standard. So we toss out 16 or 18 as being "consenting" or marginally an
adult, so they can practice doing things until the magic age of 21 (why
21 is beyond me). Are there 12 yo's who could manage a car? Sure. But
admittedly not many.
| | Can this person live independantly? No.
|
| So you aren't allowed to have sex until you are 100% financially
| stable and on your own? Better tell that to all the 25-yo grad
| students I know who still do laundry at mom's house and live in the
| dorms to save money.
I have a 23 yo stepson who refuses to get a job, unless it's working for
a few hours someplace in order to get enough money to pay his car
insurance bill for the month. He's been having more sex than I have
lately :-( But a lifetime of not having the opportunity to deal with
frustration (or rather, having the opportunities taken away from him by
certain well-meaning adults) has had a major impact on his outlook on
life. Other friends of mine can report very similar experiences with
"teenagers" who are in their 20's.
| | A fourteen year old cannot drive a car, earn a living, drink a
| | beer, or vote. They may have the mind of an adult, but are as
| | dependant and helpless to take care of themselves as any ten year
| | old child.
|
| At fourteen, I:
[... was a serious over-achiever ;-) ... ]
Susan, let's agree that you were probably exceptional, or at least in
the 90+% of teens in terms of motivation and resourcefulness. I'm not
saying that nobody else could/would do all that, just that it's pretty
rare.
| | If there parents were to leave them somewhere they probably wouldn't
| | be able to find their way back home!
|
| That's just insulting. Young people can be just as resourceful as
| adults, if not more so.
And can be just as stupid. I have an 19 yo niece that I would trust with
my daughter in any emergency, and another (22) that I wouldn't trust
with my Palm Pilot. I love them both, but I recognize that one is far
more responsible and resourceful than the other.
| | A fourteen year old can not take care of themselves or survive on
| their own.
|
| You would be surprised.
| | I've seen tons of these kids huddled on the sides of roads, living
| | in abandoned houses, diving in dumpsters, and turning tricks for
| | food.
|
| Yes, and I've seen tons of adults doing the same things. What's your
| point???
You're both arguing the same thing. Age and maturity are related, but
age is not a causal factor, or at least, not the proximate causal
factor.
Can we move along to the sex now?
| | Because I, as an adult, know more of the world they have *no
| | choice* but to rely on my judgment.
|
| Not true. There are libararies. There are other people in their
| lives to learn from. There's a wide, wide internet out there.
| Unless they
| are locked in a closet with no contact with the outside world (which
| brings up a whole other issue--the psychology of extremely abused
| children) they can learn the truth.
Oh boy, this one bothered me.
When I was younger, my father and his buddies would harass, er, try to
brainwash, er, attempt to educate me into the ways of the world -
*their* world. Every discussion ended with some variation on "I'm older
so you'll just have to take my word for it." Anytime that I pointed out
that there were other ways to learn things, I'd get some variation on
"You can't learn about life from books."
That and "We've done it like this for years, what makes you think that
you can up with something better?" Grrr.
| | "But it's only a culture difference!"
|
| It really sickens me how our culture fights so hard to keep our young
| people children for so long, and then wonders why adults don't act
| adult.
Oh shoot, I started responding before I'd read the whole thing. Susan,
you took one sentence to cover what I described in several paragraphs
above. Sorry for my redundancy.
Tom
Delila
"Tom Allen" <tao...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2ltcp3F...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>
> I think that most teenagers could be more mature given the opportunity.
> However, I also think that our society has conspired to keep opportunity
> from spiraling out of our control; that as adults we are more concerned
> than ever with the safety and development of our progeney, so we lock
> them in schools Monday through Friday, and organize town-wide sports for
> them on Saturday and Sunday, and drive them to the nice, safe malls on
> odd evenings. We complain about teachers that are "too hard" on them,
> make laws that they can't work or have a job until they're 18 (in most
> states),
I think it's 16 in most states.
and "protect" them in a myriad of other ways. There is a
> character on the Simpsons who seems to cry "But what about the
> *children* ?" at virtually every controversy. Yup, that's what I'm
> talking about. All this protection becomes insulating. Children are too
> often raised in a way that actually discourages maturity by taking away
> the opportunities to learn to cope with frustration and other difficult
> decisions.
I agree with this. We tend to baby kids way too much and for way too long.
No wonder at 18 they're overgrown children instaed of bonafide adults.
>
> The problem though, is that as a society, we need to set some kind of
> standard. So we toss out 16 or 18 as being "consenting" or marginally an
> adult, so they can practice doing things until the magic age of 21 (why
> 21 is beyond me).
Me too. It's very confusing here, I mean are you an adult at 18 or not?
You can get married (in some states as young as 14), join the Army, buy a
house (if you're rich enough), vote, you've most likely been driving since
the age of 16, but you can't have a beer? In Germany 18-year-olds are
full-flegded adults.
>
> I have a 23 yo stepson who refuses to get a job, unless it's working for
> a few hours someplace in order to get enough money to pay his car
> insurance bill for the month. He's been having more sex than I have
> lately :-(
LOL! He has to have the car in order to drive to his dates.
But a lifetime of not having the opportunity to deal with
> frustration (or rather, having the opportunities taken away from him by
> certain well-meaning adults) has had a major impact on his outlook on
> life. Other friends of mine can report very similar experiences with
> "teenagers" who are in their 20's.
I know what you mean. I have a 21-year-old son who loves to play his
computer game every waking hour he's not working.
> Oh boy, this one bothered me.
> When I was younger, my father and his buddies would harass, er, try to
> brainwash, er, attempt to educate me into the ways of the world -
> *their* world. Every discussion ended with some variation on "I'm older
> so you'll just have to take my word for it." Anytime that I pointed out
> that there were other ways to learn things, I'd get some variation on
> "You can't learn about life from books."
Well, you can't really, as much as I love to read, but living things out
is much different from reading about them.
illecebra
Hash: SHA1
Tom Allen wrote:
| "illecebra" <vyyrpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:2lt8quF...@uni-berlin.de
<big snip>
| |
| | It really sickens me how our culture fights so hard to keep our young
| | people children for so long, and then wonders why adults don't act
| | adult.
|
| Oh shoot, I started responding before I'd read the whole thing. Susan,
| you took one sentence to cover what I described in several paragraphs
| above. Sorry for my redundancy.
|
|
| Tom
NP, Tom, glad you agree with me. :) Now if only we could figure out
how to convince society that perpetual childhood is NOT an admirable goal.
<sigh>
Susan
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