How charitable are you with pan handlers?

[billbowden]

I only give one girl some money every so often who is in a wheelchair and
has trouble speaking. But I get these other guys who walk up to my window
when I'm driving and ready to make a turn asking for money. I usually just
give them a blank stare indicating I have no idea what they want. How do you
respond to panhandlers? Do you give them money, or some excuse you have no
money, or just ignore tham and hope they go away? How do you determine who
is in need and who is not?

[rumpelstiltskin]

>is in need and who is not.


I almost never give money to panhandlers,
especially not if they're in my neighborhood.
I don't see many, or any, who look disabled.
Maybe the city takes care of those. Of
course some of them are such drunken
messes that they might also be disable,
you couldn't tell.

It is true that "There but for fortune go
you or I", though. Even if they're on the
street for "their own fault", you and I are
just lucky we didn't have or get that
particular fault.

[me]

I generally don't offer anything because it encourages more begging. Occasionally I make an exception based on some irrational impulse. The last time I offered something was here in Trieste. Insltead of money I offered an apple because the guys said he was hungry. He didn't take the apple.

[El Castor]

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:37:41 -0700, "billbowden"
<bpe...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote:

I donate quite a bit to charity, but never to pan handlers. Back in
the day there was a good one in San Francisco. I was waiting for the
bus and this guy in a tennis outfit, carrying a racquet in a case,
comes up to me and explains that he is a soldier on leave from Fort
Ord. Someone stole his wallet and he needs $20 for bus fair, or he
will be AWOL and in big trouble. If I gave him my address he would pay
me back. I said I'd have to pass. Two weeks later -- same guy, same
story. (-8

[mg]

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:37:41 -0700, "billbowden"
<bpe...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote:

I never walk anywhere. I always drive (like everyone else
around here) and Utah county doesn't have many, if any, pan
handlers on the sidewalks, anyway (or religious fanatics, or
assorted low lifes).

There is, however, usually one pan handler at the exit
coming out of the local Walmart store, but because of
traffic, etc., it's difficult to give them money. Depending
on how they look, though, and especially if they're female,
I'll sometimes give them 5 bucks.

[GLOBALIST]

Those are all "on the spot" decisions that you can
not plan for. I slipped $5 into the shirt pocket
of a sleeping,local, chronic alcoholic, who was sleeping'
upright at a bus stop.

[Emily]

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:37:41 -0700, "billbowden"
<bpe...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote:

Around here they mostly stand by the side of the road or in the median
strip. I will occasionally give one $5 and tell them to buy
themselves a six pack but mostly I ignore them because the chances
that they're really homeless and starving are very slim. There's one
woman who works the parking lot in front of Giant with some story
about her purse being stolen or something else possible but unlikely.
My husband saw her being chased off by an employee of Giant - she got
in a brand new pickup truck with a guy.

The most obnoxious panhandlers I've ever seen were in New Orleans.
They would practically knock you down while demanding money. I can't
imagine that that tactic works very well. It certainly didn't with
us.

[wolfbat359]

I use to give money to one person in my neighborhood; and he said it was for food. Not drugs or alcohol! Then one day I went to a Seven Eleven and saw that he was in line to buy something. Yet he had no product to buy! When he got to the clerk, he put all the money he had collected that day - some on mine. He then asked the Clerk "How much beer can I buy! That is the last time I gave to any pan handlers in my neighborhood or any where else!

[wolfbat359]

One time the News ,a long time ago in Denver, did a special on pan handlers. They watch the persons pan handle and then followed them to see where they go! Seems that a few not only lived in a house but they had a job also!

[islander]

Panhandlers are, I believe, a symptom of a problem with our society.
There seems to be a lot of them who are vets and if so, that is a
product of the miserable state that they are left in when the war
machine is done with them. There are no panhandlers on this island and
I think that is because we have good public services including an
excellent food bank. There are a few who live in pretty desperate
situations, but there is housing assistance if they need it. We have an
excellent affordable housing program and none of the residents lost
their homes during the Great Recession. Housing gets worse during the
summer, mostly kids who camp out and work the tourist jobs. Our
unemployment rate during the summer is very low. The kids leave when
the season is over. The AirBnB and similar programs for vacation
rentals has removed a lot of affordable rentals from the market needed
by middle class workers and that is a problem, especially for tradesmen
and retail workers. That seems to be a problem in a lot of communities
with tourism.

I see panhandlers on the mainland, but not many. I cannot imagine that
anyone wants that existence if there are alternatives.

[rumpelstiltskin]

In San Francisco, walking is fun. It's a walking town,
unlike LA where people pretty much have to drive or
take public transportation to get anywhere. And since
San Francisco is a very compact city (49 square miles),
and there's nowhere to expand North, East, or West,
it's possible for public transportation to be very good
here which it is, unlike in LA which is so spread out
that public transit can't go everywhere or run as often.

I like LA myself though I've only once, that I can
recall, been there for 40 years, but I am very glad I
live in San Francisco instead, even though it's a much
smaller town than LA. Even San Jose is bigger than
San Francisco, but San Francisco "feels" more like a
real city, and "feeling is first".

[rumpelstiltskin]

Yeah, that happens, though if one is down and out,
getting drunk or high at least alleviates the misery for
a little while.

[mg]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 09:38:01 -0700, rumpelstiltskin<x...@y.com>
wrote:

As the old saying goes: Be it ever so humble, there's no
place like home, and that home doesn't necessarily have to
be the place that one was born and raised in. In my case it
is, though.

If one happened to be rich, one could probably live almost
anywhere and have his cake and eat it too, and have the best
of things and avoid the worst ones. For the rest of those,
if we like a place, we have to put up with the good and the
bad and the ugly, and still like it, anyway.

[me]

There seem to be more in Europe. During my stay in Paris a couple of years ago I was surprised by the number there. Last year in Budapest homeless people were fairly common. I doubt they were vets.

[billbowden]

"Emily" <Em...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ubfufc5bi37nf41r7...@4ax.com...

I knew one panhandler who didn't need any money. He was 87 and dying of
Emphysema. The doctors gave him 1 year to live. His house was paid off and
he received a pension and social security and had a couple hundred thousand
in investments. But he was bored and sometimes rode the bus to the beach
just for something to do. Then he got the idea of panhandling at the freeway
off-ramps and would collect $20 in a couple hours. He sat in a motorized
chair wearing his WWII Veteran hat and cars stopping at the freeway
offramp light would give him money. I guess he was just testing the waters
to see how easy it was to make a living panhandling. He passed away 6
months later.

[billbowden]

"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message
news:odns9e$4e2$1...@dont-email.me...

Not exactly. There are many vets who try and game the system. I know 2 of
them. One guy tried for some time to be classified as disabled due to PTSD.
He attended meetings to find out what to say to qualify for benefits. He
finally won his case but unfortunately he owed 80K in back child support and
lost half of the benefits. Another vet is already collecting social
security disability from PTSD and wants more. So, he plans to file a claim
for exposure to Agent Orange to increase his income. He doesn't suffer from
any symtoms, just happened to be in some location where Agent Orange was
used and therefore he must have been effected and wants a salary increase.
And the list goes on. Unfortunately, I was never in a war zone so I can't
ask for benefits other than VA health care.
.

>There ae no panhandlers on this island and I think that is because we have

[islander]

Over 2.7M vets saw active duty in Vietnam. Most of them returned to
lead successful lives. Their unemployment rate is lower than for
non-vets of similar age. They also have a higher income than non-vets
of similar age. But, they are dying earlier than their peers, probably
due to exposure to Agent Orange. It is estimated that 30% of Vietnam
vets suffer from some degree of PTSD, even 44 years after the war. It
is only recently that the military has taken PTSD seriously for Vietnam
vets. Suicide rates for Vietnam vets are double those for the general
public, now as they reach retirement age. The number of homeless
Vietnam vets is also increasing.

So, out of 2.7M vets who saw active duty, there are going to be a few
who try to game the system. I don't have a problem with that. A much
more serious problem is the vets who need help and are too proud to ask
for help or who fall through the cracks of the VA.

On a more positive note, a number of cities have implemented affordable
housing programs designed to help vets. That is a good thing!

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:29:22 -0700, islander <no...@priracy.com> wrote:

<snip>

>Over 2.7M vets saw active duty in Vietnam. Most of them returned to
>lead successful lives. Their unemployment rate is lower than for
>non-vets of similar age. They also have a higher income than non-vets
>of similar age. But, they are dying earlier than their peers, probably
>due to exposure to Agent Orange. It is estimated that 30% of Vietnam
>vets suffer from some degree of PTSD, even 44 years after the war. It
>is only recently that the military has taken PTSD seriously for Vietnam
>vets. Suicide rates for Vietnam vets are double those for the general
>public, now as they reach retirement age. The number of homeless
>Vietnam vets is also increasing.
>
>So, out of 2.7M vets who saw active duty, there are going to be a few
>who try to game the system. I don't have a problem with that. A much
>more serious problem is the vets who need help and are too proud to ask
>for help or who fall through the cracks of the VA.
>
>On a more positive note, a number of cities have implemented affordable
>housing programs designed to help vets. That is a good thing!

I hate that word "affordable". Whenever I hear it,
it makes me think "not more than we can get out of
you without killing you, but not much less either."
Commoners in America are apparently supposed to
ramp up their "lifestyles" until they live in constant
fear that they might not be able to pay for their next
meal.

[billbowden]

"rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message
news:4rh1gch3g2a5hdj6v...@4ax.com...

Why do you complain about affordable housing? Don't you get a 70% reduction
of rent from rent control in socialist San Francisco?

[rumpelstiltskin]

Yes but all renters get that and it's not accompanied
by any mealy-mouthed (IMO) term like "affordable
housing". As to "socialist", that's a lot better than
exploitation by a few rich capitalists who don't give
a damn about anybody but themselves. Society does,
IMO, need to put the brakes on that kind of practice.
Giving people who want to engage in such stuff free
rein is not the way to a better world: not at ALL!
It's the way back to feudalism, and then we'll need
another 1789 to liberate the human race again.

I'm not saying I might not do the same thing if I
could get away with it. Greed, when it succeeds,
changes people, and not in a "good" way. I don't
pretend to be above that. If I found a bag of
stolen bank money, or the buried hoard of a
dead miser, I'd certainly keep it rather than turn
it over to the faceless government. I might
check to see if the dead miser had a cat or dog
that was now in the pound probably headed
for death, and adopt it.

[islander]

Well, in our case, the homes really are affordable. The OPAL non-profit
is based on the community land trust model. That means that they raise
money to buy land and install utilities and other infrastructure. They
then build modest homes that are sold to residents for the cost of the
building. Buyers agree to not sell the homes above a rate of inflation
if they need to move. This assures that the homes are not only
affordable, but remain that way. Turnover is very low. OPAL also
assists in getting mortgage financing. Applicants' are only eligible if
their household income is less than 80% of the area median income and
there is a limit on assets.
https://www.opalclt.org/

[rumpelstiltskin]

That all sounds good, but I'd still prefer "inexpensive" or
"market rate" or "going rate". Maybe I'm crazy - I am, of
course - but I just intensely dislike the word "affordable".
It seems to me to be imposing a "judgment" about how
much a person should be expected to pay, and I never
want to pay what other people "expect" me to pay. I
pay more for better quality in stuff I like where quality
makes a difference, and as little as possible for stuff
that's just an unavoidable but necessary annoyance.

[billbowden]

"rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message

news:c2a2gc9tsfq92lubt...@4ax.com...

But you are locking me out if I want to move to SF since I can't afford to
pay 3 times more than you pay for rent. So that's the same as down here
where we don't want anybody building new housing since it reduces property
values. So, it's the same thing. You don't want anybody moving into your
neighborhood and we don't want any more either. We already have too many
people. There is no place to park on the street since all the apartments
have 3 families and 3 cars. on the street. And any new construction is 3
stories high with no regard to where anybody parks. The developers know they
can get 3 times the price of a new apartment by building them 3 times
higher. The sky is the limit. There is community college down here where
they are building 3 story apartments around the perimeter of the school. At
the same time the college is building more and more classrooms on the
existing parking lots thus increasing students while reducing parking space.
I think the idea is to force anybody who wants to attend the college to live
in the surrounding apartments and just walk across the street to school.
It's starting to look like New York city. But I guess you can still take the
bus. I rode the bus to school for a year, One night a teacher saw me waiting
for the bus and gave me a ride.

[islander]

Don't you have building codes that stipulate the amount of parking that
is required per unit?

In New York, you have six floor walk-ups. And no parking. Most
residents have given up owning a car. Recently it was publicized that
spaces in parking buildings were selling for $1M.

Of course, LA used to have a great street car system until General
Motors and other automobile, tire, and oil companies colluded to buy the
street car companies in order to eliminate them. Just business!

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 23:29:57 -0700, "billbowden"

I think we have a three-storey limit in my neighborhood. Just a
few blocks down Market Street on the way to downtown, the new
buildings have five or six storeys. I call those buildings dot-commer
buildings. Nobody I've talked with likes seeing them around. The
exteriors are "modern" and "streamlined", i.e. they have no
personality. I've heard that some of the interiors are luxurious,
but the exteriors don't add any character to the neighborhoods.

The people in the Mission District a mile and a bit east of me
are fighting an ongoing battle against new development,
particularly five or more storey development, partly because
the facelessness of the new buildings hurts the character of
the Mission and partly because it's rich outsiders who move
into those buildings, which the people in the Mission fear is
going to drive up rents generally, though of course they have
rent-control too so the effect won't be immediate.

>I think the idea is to force anybody who wants to attend the college to live
>in the surrounding apartments and just walk across the street to school.
>It's starting to look like New York city. But I guess you can still take the
>bus. I rode the bus to school for a year, One night a teacher saw me waiting
>for the bus and gave me a ride.

We have dot-commers moving in to San Francisco. They work
down the Peninsula but want to live in San Francisco. I can't
blame them for wanting that - who wouldn't want that? - but the
featureless condos that they seem to like, or at least put up with,
are changing the character of the city and not in a good way.
They can afford the exorbitant rents.

Rent control was voted in by the people already living here so
as not to force people who are already settled here to move out.
My landlord is dead though and my landlady is older than myself.
If she dies before me, their daughters might invoke the "Ellis Act"
to force me out.

I typed something more at the end of the previous paragraph,
but I had to delete it because I looked up the Ellis act and it's
quite a bit different than I'd thought:
https://www.sftu.org/ellis/

One thing in it is "Tenants who fight the Ellis eviction win
surprisingly often. Tenants who don’t win often drag out the
eviction for well over a year and get into a position where they
can settle on their terms. The first rule of an Ellis is not to
panic but to become resolved to fight for your home." Since
I'm both a senior and technically disabled, I'll get at least a
year's grace. Despite two fake knees and a fake hip, I don't
feel disabled. Young whippersnappers are always offering
me their seats on the bus, which is nice of them but I don't
like being reminded that I look like a "senior" now. I've
considered dying my hair, but it probably wouldn't help much.
I saw Trump from the side on TV today, BTW, and a big
wedge of his hair was standing straight out most unnaturally
in front from the top of his head out to a couple of inches
ahead of his face. It made me think of the takeoff area on
an aircraft carrier, or a ski jump.

I guess the protections for existing tenants explain why,
when the guy across the street wanted to sell his building
because he was moving down the peninsula, he - or rather
the person who was buying the building - had to bribe a
tenant who refused to leave $60,000 to get her to move.
She'd been giving the guy across the street headaches for
years. He was always complaining about her but he
couldn't get rid of her.

I don't know if you want to read all the details of the Ellis
Act - I sure didn't. It reads like a legalistic rat's next. The
last things I would ever have wanted to do for a living
would have been an accountant or a lawyer, since stuff
like that is certainly not to my taste. It gives me the willies
in fact. I did once write an accounting program for the
accountant at a firm where I was working, and I could
hardly believe how unnecessarily (IMV) complicated and
arbitrary everything about accounting was.

I hope I die where I am, rather than ever having to
move my stuff. I have three or four thousand CDs for one
thing. My son can deal with that, since he manages rental
units so he's used to the grief, but he hates it as much as
I would. The fact that he'll have so much money coming
to him that he'll never really have to work again, since
he's frugal as I am, should ease the pain though. He just
had a birthday, and was moaning in an email that he's
55 now.

[billbowden]

"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message

news:odsvk3$ioc$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 4/26/2017 11:29 PM, billbowden wrote:
>> "rumpelstiltskin" <x...@y.com> wrote in message

I think it's just one parking space for a 1 or 2 bedroom unit. And most
units have 2 families living in them with 3 cars, so 2 cars park on the
street. And if you have a dog or a cat, the rent is increased by $55 a
month. And there's a $250 deposit required for a dog or cat. Exotic birds
might be free.

> In New York, you have six floor walk-ups. And no parking. Most residents
> have given up owning a car. Recently it was publicized that spaces in
> parking buildings were selling for $1M.
>

When I need money, I have to drive to the John Wayne airport area to visit a
Charles Schwab brokerage office. There is no parking other than a 6 story
parking garage. The first 3 floors are all reserved, so I drive up to the
4th floor and usually find a spot. Then I take the elevator down to the 1st
floor and walk across the street to the office. I guess you can used to it
if you did it every day. But it's spooky driving through a dark parking lot
building where there is only a few inches clearance from your roof to the
ceiling. I guess I should hope to hit something so I could sue them.

[islander]

I'm surprised that the deposit for a dog or cat is so little. Pets can
do a lot of damage. We had one tenant whose dog completely destroyed
the landscaping around the house, not to mention damage inside the
house. It cost thousands to correct, much more than the one month
security deposit that we required.

>
>> In New York, you have six floor walk-ups. And no parking. Most residents
>> have given up owning a car. Recently it was publicized that spaces in
>> parking buildings were selling for $1M.
>>
>
> When I need money, I have to drive to the John Wayne airport area to visit a
> Charles Schwab brokerage office. There is no parking other than a 6 story
> parking garage. The first 3 floors are all reserved, so I drive up to the
> 4th floor and usually find a spot. Then I take the elevator down to the 1st
> floor and walk across the street to the office. I guess you can used to it
> if you did it every day. But it's spooky driving through a dark parking lot
> building where there is only a few inches clearance from your roof to the
> ceiling. I guess I should hope to hit something so I could sue them.

Between the cost of your car and any parking fee, it seems to me that
you are paying a lot to access your money. I use electronic funds
transfer to move money from my brokerage accounts to my checking
account. Costs me nothing.

[Stanley Zeeeee]

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 11:37:44 PM UTC-4, billbowden wrote:
> I only give one girl some money every so often who is in a wheelchair and
> has trouble speaking. But I get these other guys who walk up to my window
> when I'm driving and ready to make a turn asking for money. I usually just
> give them a blank stare indicating I have no idea what they want. How do you
> respond to panhandlers? Do you give them money, or some excuse you have no
> money, or just ignore tham and hope they go away? How do you determine who

> is in need and who is not?

[Stanley Zeeeee]

It depends on their Pan.

[billbowden]

"islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message

news:odvnn9$25f$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 4/27/2017 3:01 PM, billbowden wrote:
>> "islander" <no...@priracy.com> wrote in message

>>> Don't you have building codes that stipulate the amount of parking that
>>> is
>>> required per unit?
>>>
>>
>> I think it's just one parking space for a 1 or 2 bedroom unit. And most
>> units have 2 families living in them with 3 cars, so 2 cars park on the
>> street. And if you have a dog or a cat, the rent is increased by $55 a
>> month. And there's a $250 deposit required for a dog or cat. Exotic
>> birds
>> might be free.
>
> I'm surprised that the deposit for a dog or cat is so little. Pets can do
> a lot of damage. We had one tenant whose dog completely destroyed the
> landscaping around the house, not to mention damage inside the house. It
> cost thousands to correct, much more than the one month security deposit
> that we required.

I had a neighbor who was evicted when his dog bit somebody. A lawyer called
me and wanted me to testify on a Monday morning. But it just happened to be
the same day I was sitting on a jury and so couldn't comply. The lawyer
asked if I had knowledge about the dog attacking people and I didn't. All I
knew was the dog barked and I didn't know it had actually bit someone. So
the lawyer asked if I would be happy if the guy moved out, and I agreed, and
he did.

>>
>>> In New York, you have six floor walk-ups. And no parking. Most
>>> residents
>>> have given up owning a car. Recently it was publicized that spaces in
>>> parking buildings were selling for $1M.
>>>
>>
>> When I need money, I have to drive to the John Wayne airport area to
>> visit a
>> Charles Schwab brokerage office. There is no parking other than a 6 story
>> parking garage. The first 3 floors are all reserved, so I drive up to
>> the
>> 4th floor and usually find a spot. Then I take the elevator down to the
>> 1st
>> floor and walk across the street to the office. I guess you can used to
>> it
>> if you did it every day. But it's spooky driving through a dark parking
>> lot
>> building where there is only a few inches clearance from your roof to the
>> ceiling. I guess I should hope to hit something so I could sue them.
>
> Between the cost of your car and any parking fee, it seems to me that you
> are paying a lot to access your money. I use electronic funds transfer to
> move money from my brokerage accounts to my checking account. Costs me
> nothing.
>

It only costs me the gas and time to visit the office. Parking is free since
they validate the ticket. I only go there 2 or three times a year so it's a
modest cost. I could open a checking account, but then I would spend more.
I like to make it difficult to obtain money so I don't spend too much. But
this year is costing me a lot more since I had to get a tuneup for my truck
(new plugs and wires) at $300, and another $300 for a traffic ticket, and
I'm attending my grand Niece's HS graduation in Texas which will be another
$400. So, I'm already $1000 over budget in the first 6 months of the year. I
hope Trump's tax reduction plan will keep the market going up so I can break
even this year.

[islander]

The market had a nice bump from Nov to Feb, but has pretty much stalled
since then.

[rumpelstiltskin]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:35:13 -0700, "billbowden"
<snip>

>It only costs me the gas and time to visit the office. Parking is free since
>they validate the ticket. I only go there 2 or three times a year so it's a
>modest cost. I could open a checking account, but then I would spend more.
>I like to make it difficult to obtain money so I don't spend too much. But
>this year is costing me a lot more since I had to get a tuneup for my truck
>(new plugs and wires) at $300, and another $300 for a traffic ticket, and
>I'm attending my grand Niece's HS graduation in Texas which will be another
>$400. So, I'm already $1000 over budget in the first 6 months of the year. I
>hope Trump's tax reduction plan will keep the market going up so I can break
>even this year.

I was born close enough to Scotland that I have no problem
at all not spending money.