NYT: "gang rape in France has become banal"
Lee K
Elaine Sciolino/NYT NYT
VIGNEUX-SUR-SEINE, France
The boys were patient, standing in line and waiting their turn to rape.
.
Their two victims, girls of 13, were patient as well, never crying out, at
least that is what the neighbors said, and enduring the violence and abuse
not once, but repeatedly over five months.
.
That was three years ago. Late last month, 10 young men, now ranging in age
from 18 to 21, were convicted of rape in a closed courtroom in nearby Evry
and sentenced to prison terms ranging from three to five years. Seven others
will go on trial in November. The fact that they are being brought to
justice at all is highly unusual.
.
The phenomenon of gang rape in France has become banal. It occurs - how
often is unknown - in the concrete wastelands built as cheap housing for
immigrants on the outskirts of France's big cities. Here, according to
sociologists and prosecutors, teenage boys, many of them loosely organized
into gangs, prey on neighborhood girls.
.
Many of the boys are raised in closed, traditional families and are
hopelessly confused or ignorant about sex; others are simply street toughs.
In this world, women enjoy little respect; often girls who appear weak, or
who wear tight-fitting clothing or go out unaccompanied by their fathers or
brothers are considered fair game.
.
To avoid trouble, many girls of the projects have taken to wearing
loose-fitting jogging clothes and hidden themselves behind domineering
fathers or brothers; others have organized themselves into their own gangs.
Many of the Muslim girls have donned head scarves - more for protection than
out of religious conviction.
.
In the basement of 4 Place Albert Einstein, in this working-class suburb
where the rapes took place, a graffiti message scrawled across a white wall
explains why so few cases are prosecuted. "The law of silence is our sixth
sense," it reads. "I've heard too many of these stories, and it's become
unbearable," said Samira Bellil, 30, a gang-rape victim, whose book, "In
Gang-Rape Hell," was a bestseller in France last year. "The word of the boys
is often believed. So the trauma is not just the violence but the torment
that comes if a girl comes forward and breaks the silence. We have to stop
taking sides with the wolves."
.
Bellil was gang-raped at age 14. She had fallen in love and agreed to have
sex with her boyfriend. Three of his friends were waiting outside. They
kicked and beat her and gang-raped her throughout the night. She waited
before reporting the rapes, and did so only after three of her friends told
her that they, too, had been raped by one of her attackers.
.
The appearance of Bellil's book last year coincided with the death of a
17-year-old girl named Sohane, who was burned alive by an angry boyfriend in
the suburb of Vitry-sur-Seine. A book about the murder, which trained the
spotlight on violent crime against young women in the suburbs, is still on
the best-seller list. In the case of the two girls in the recent court case,
the penetration was oral or anal; vaginal sex would have stolen the girls'
virginity, which apparently was not the goal of the attackers.
.
"In many cases, the violence of a band of young men against a girl is
considered a rite of sexual initiation to prove one's manhood," said Hugues
Lagrange, a sociologist at the National Center for Scientific Research in
Paris who specializes in adolescent sexuality. "In the boys' minds, if a
girl's virginity is respected, then nothing bad has happened."
.
The girls' story seeped out months after the events, according to Laurent Le
Mehaute, the lawyer for one of the girls. After rumors circulated at their
high school, the director referred the matter to the police. At first, the
girls denied the story, but eventually identified 18 boys as their rapists.
.
All but one of the boys confessed to having sex with the girls, even
acknowledging that it was not consensual. The one who claimed his innocence
was acquitted.
.
At the vast housing project where the girls lived and where the rapes
occurred, the grounds are clean, even landscaped with weeping willow and
evergreen trees. The population is multiracial and multiethnic, a blend of
French-born citizens and immigrants from places like north and sub-Saharan
Africa, Turkey and the Caribbean. Nearby are a butcher selling halal meat,
an oriental pastry shop and coffee house, a laundromat, a health club and a
supermarket - as well as drug dealers openly selling hashish.
.
None of the young men, some whose families moved here from the Caribbean,
had a previous criminal record.
.
Prejudice against the girls lingers. "What were the girls doing in the
afternoons down in the basements?" asked one woman who lives on the first
floor of the building. "Why did their parents let them go there? They know
what happens if they follow the boys. They know what happens if they go to
the basement."
.
The neighborhood butcher, from Algeria, spoke as if the suburb was a world
apart. "If a girl goes out, she's going to get into trouble, especially with
Arabs and blacks, because they are not used to seeing girls outside," he
said. "The boys have needs. Where I come from, it's not normal that a girl
goes out at night. If I tell my sister not to go out, she obeys me. This
world is not like France."
.
There are no reliable statistics, but Lagrange estimates that there are more
than four times as many gang rapes in France today as there were two decades
ago; at least part of the increase can be attributed to more young women
speaking out.
.
Transparency comes at an exceedingly high price. After one of the girls came
forward, said Le Mehaute, the lawyer, "She couldn't go out anymore. People
spat on her. There was tremendous psychological damage."
.
The girl's 39-year-old father became so depressed after the truth was
revealed that last summer he hanged himself. The girl had tried but failed
to kill herself the year before by slashing her arms.
.
Both girls were harassed so mercilessly that they have since moved away from
the project. One lives with relatives, the other in state-run housing.
.
The New York Times
William B. Boyd
I guess that's the way of the French.
--
Posted by HOPPIE, 30 Years Active Duty ,13 Campaigns Vietnam, Life
Member; Am.Lgn,DAV,VFW,AFSA
GLC1173
>In this world, women enjoy little respect; >often girls who appear weak, or
>who wear tight-fitting clothing or go out >unaccompanied by their fathers or
>brothers are considered fair game.
>loose-fitting jogging clothes and hidden >themselves behind domineering
>fathers or brothers;
France - the new Afghanistan or the new Iraq. It can no longer be denied.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<B>Dissident news - plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather
<I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT:
official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>
GLC1173
>>>To avoid trouble, many girls of the >>>projects have taken to wearing
>>>loose-fitting jogging clothes and hidden >>>themselves behind domineering
>>>fathers or brothers;
quoted me:
>> France - the new Afghanistan
and replied:
>What nonsense. In a town near NYC >there is a big scandal. Seems
>freshmen football players have been >routinely sodomized and otherwise
>sexually abused by their older >teammates at football camp for years
>and years.
That's a very-localized, semiconsensual thing; after all, any guy wanting to
avoid the hazing just didn't go out for the football team. In France, the gang
rapes are an everyday occurrence against <I>any</i> woman seen walking in or
near the slum suburbs where the Moslem immigrants live - so "normal" as to have
inspired a noun in French: "le tournant." WAKE UP.
maureen
>Rita quoted Lee:
>>>>To avoid trouble, many girls of the projects have taken to wearing
>>>>loose-fitting jogging clothes and hidden themselves behind domineering
>>>>fathers or brothers;
>
>quoted me:
>>> France - the new Afghanistan
>
>and replied:
>>What nonsense. In a town near NYC there is a big scandal. Seems
>>freshmen football players have been routinely sodomized and otherwise
>>sexually abused by their older teammates at football camp for years
>>and years.
>
> That's a very-localized, semiconsensual thing; after all, any guy wanting to
>avoid the hazing just didn't go out for the football team. In France, the gang
>rapes are an everyday occurrence against <I>any</i> woman seen walking in or
>near the slum suburbs where the Moslem immigrants live - so "normal" as to have
>inspired a noun in French: "le tournant." WAKE UP.
Another big American scandal is that the governor of California was
involved in a gang rape when he was younger. Is that how gang bangers
are rewarded... make 'em governor. It's not a lesson I would pass on
to posterity.
maureen
GLC1173
>Another big American scandal is that the >governor of California was
>involved in a gang rape when he was >younger. Is that how gang bangers
>are rewarded... make 'em governor. It's >not a lesson I would pass on
>to posterity.
Of course it was crazy. But the election of that proudly-admitted pervert
was one man - not what's going on in France, where gang rapes of French women
by young Moslem males are so "normal" as to inspire a noun to describe them!
Bill
news:20031023012756...@mb-m17.aol.com:
> Maureen wrote:
>>Another big American scandal is that the >governor of California was
>>involved in a gang rape when he was >younger. Is that how gang bangers
>>are rewarded... make 'em governor. It's >not a lesson I would pass on
>>to posterity.
>
> Of course it was crazy. But the election of that proudly-admitted
> pervert
> was one man - not what's going on in France, where gang rapes of
> French women by young Moslem males are so "normal" as to inspire a
> noun to describe them! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I missed another one. Gray Davis was involved in a gang rape?
--
Pull the string to reply
Earl Evleth
"Lee K" <lee_k...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> France takes on plague of sexual 'rite'
This has been in the French news for a long time.
Neglected social problems catch up with every nation.
It is "unfortunate" that the 10 commandments never
instructed "Thou shalt not be cruel"
Earl
Jim Chamblee
> Another big American scandal is that the governor of California was
> involved in a gang rape when he was younger. Is that how gang bangers
> are rewarded... make 'em governor. It's not a lesson I would pass on
> to posterity.
Cartoonists here have labelled him Das Gropenfuhrer.
GLC1173
>The election showed that California voters >did not take this sort of thing
>at all seriously, so it speaks to the >attitudes of far more than Arnold
>himself.
>I'm quite surprised myself at those here >who ranted on about Clinton for
>years and still do but seem starry eyed >about the California groper.
It's the elites of the GOP who are starry eyed about the Kalifornia
Pervert-Elect. You have no idea how angry grassroots conservatives are with
the RNC for pushing his candidacy - we are outraged. People openly talk about
their outrage with the RNC on dissident forums.
Mcturk4
>out of religious conviction.
>.
Now we know the real reason for the head scarves being worn by the French
Arab students. After reading such an article, one wonders why the French
school authorities are so adamant about forbidding the wearing of such scarves
by the girls - "more for protection than out of religious conviction." IMHO
the HLM's (where these people must live) (Habitations a Loyers Moderes) High
rise buildings with very thin walls, very small rooms, small appliances and
furniture, etc. can be tossed in the junk heap of other failed French social
experiments along with the 35 hour work week. Suicide rates, gang rapes,
crime have all risen dramatically in these particular areas ever since they
were built.
maureen
>maureen wrote:
>
>> Another big American scandal is that the governor of California was
>> involved in a gang rape when he was younger. Is that how gang bangers
>> are rewarded... make 'em governor. It's not a lesson I would pass on
>> to posterity.
>>
>> maureen
>
>Cite please.
>
>Was that alleged incident as the plunkee or plunker?
>
>Dick
Plunker. Note the "We". This article was posted earlier in this
group. It's from an interview with OUI associated with Playboy.
Here's an excerpt. Watch for that " We" now!
------------------
***Arnold Schwarzenegger once told a magazine interviewer about
participating in an orgy with other bodybuilders, noting that
"everybody jumped on" the woman involved and "took her upstairs where
WE all got together." The California Republican added that not every
muscleman participated in the gang bang, "just the guys who can fuck
in front of other guys. Not everybody can do that. Some think that
they don't have a big-enough cock, so they can't get a hard-on."
Schwarzenegger's lewd talk appeared in the August 1977 issue of Oui,
an adult magazine published by Playboy
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arnoldoui1.html
---------------------------------
-
It didn't go down well overseas that America has a gangbanger as the
Governor of California. I mean you're chalking up some bad strikes
for yourselves.... an evangelical fundamentalist President who lies
through his teeth , and who allows his Generals to look for Osama bin
Laden using bible codes, and a gang banger as governor of California.
Wow!
Git those liberals back in and let's have a bit of reality and
morality in the good ole US! Those far right wingers are bringing
American down in the world and with the majority of Americans. .
maureen
maureen
>
>
>-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
>http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
>-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
maureen
>I read the Oui article about the group sex with the groupie,
>but you accused Schwarzenegger of rape. Please tell us when
>and where the rape occurred.
>
>Dick
How do we know it wasn't rape! There would be many words against hers
if she dared to complain. What good would it do her to complain
against men ,soome of whom may have been rich and powerful. Gang
bangs are revolting acts and whether the woman was willing or not it's
still a disgrace that anyone gets involved, and publishes it. What
adults do in their own homes is their own business unless there is
coercion involved This horrific incident was published and we don't
really know the facts.
Women and children are the poorest people in society. If women missed
their educational chances when they were young because of
dysfunctional families, poverty stricken families, whatever, giving
sex is sometimes all they've got to sell to help their own children
have a better future and present than they have. If a child is very
sick and needs expensive treatment and their job does not give them
enough for health care mother love can drive any woman into selling
herself for sex. Children are a very precious commodity to women and
women who provide for their children often don't have enough to see
the week through in groceries.
The Governor of California is a gangbanger. A societal case could be
made for it being rape, taken into account the status of women in
America. .
GLC1173
>Women and children are the poorest >people in society.
BS - most of the people I see driving new luxury cars are women, and so are
half the adults living in big homes in rich neighborhoods.
Troy.
She's squirming!
You've cornered the liberal in another lie.
William W. Boyd
Maybe this is the voice of experience, Maureen, were you the plunker
or the plunkee in your gang bang episode. Hardie Har Har ! Just
funning with you.
E&B Hatcher
>
> maureen wrote:
>
> > >I read the Oui article about the group sex with the groupie,
> > >but you accused Schwarzenegger of rape. Please tell us when
> > >and where the rape occurred.
> > >
> > >Dick
> >
> > How do we know it wasn't rape!
>
> Bull pucky, you acused him of participating in a gang rape.
> Trot out your evidence.
>
> By the same line of logic I could say you has sex with a
> goat. How do we know you didn't!
>
> Dick
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Evidence? Only what the jerk said himself, describing a gangbang in
about as clear language as most mags could print. No, they didn't print
the order in which the various guys got with her or keep count of which
ones could stand the peers scrutiny, but the Swartz made it clear enough
for anyone who gives a crap that he participated in a cluster-fck.
what's so incredible is that he didn't think it was at all incorrect
behavior, apparently since "everyone" was doing it.
Maybe he vas just following orders!
If I said I had sex with a goat, you would justified in saying I had sex
with a goat. As a matter of fact, if you said you didn't have sex with
a goat, I would find that very strange indeed. But I'm sure most people
would believe you ... lacking further evidence, or word from the goat.
Maybe this subject needs a lawyer. Ask Cohen. He says he's a lawyer.
maureen
>> maureen
>
>Bull pucky, you acused him of participating in a gang rape.
>Trot out your evidence.
>
>By the same line of logic I could say you has sex with a
>goat. How do we know you didn't!
>
>Dick
You just lost all credibility with that massive leap of logic from an
actual published event of the gang banging of a woman which Arnold
boasted he was part of to me having sex with a goat.
When six or seven or eight or nine men are involved in gangbanging a
woman it's their word against hers. However, we do know from the
article that the woman wasn't asked to participate. I quote::
"everybody JUMPED on" the woman involved and "TOOK her upstairs
That doesn't sound consensual to me. . When it's not consensual it's
rape. . Arnold has not given any indication that he thinks there’s
anything wrong with what he did. And if he doesn’t think there’s
anything wrong with this, he thinks it would be acceptable to repeat
this behavior." He also publicized his behavior, boasting about it,
giving this aggressive, anti-social act that demeans women his
blessing.
The publicized gangbanging of a woman demeans and rapes all women. and
makes them more vulnerable in an increasingly violent world.
In my eyes Arnold committed more than rape.
I am disgusted, appalled, revolted, sickened, disturbed and troubled,"
that California decided to make this man a governor.
With a gang-banging governor and a lying President it seems that
morality is on the way out in the US under the far righties.
maureen
maureen
<justusc...@not-here.com> wrote:
>mau...@trailsaway.cariad (maureen) wrote:
>
>>
>>Another big American scandal is that the governor of California was
>>involved in a gang rape when he was younger. Is that how gang bangers
>>are rewarded... make 'em governor. It's not a lesson I would pass on
>>to posterity.
>>
>>maureen
>>
>I seldom use the "L" word, Maureen, but in this case it's entirely
>appropriate. You, madam, are a filthy liar.
>
>Jeff
And you fatso don't read the evidence properly. Read the OUI interview
and read between the lines.
When six or seven or eight or nine men are involved in gangbanging a
woman it's their word against hers. However, we do know from the
article that the woman wasn't asked to participate. I quote::
"everybody JUMPED on" the woman involved and "TOOK her upstairs
When it's not consensual it's rape. .
The act was worse than rape. It was an anti-social act that demeaned
all women and the Gropenfuehrer with his publicized implicit blessing
and boasting of the act made women less safe in an increasingly
violent society .
maureen
GLC1173
>In my eyes Arnold committed more than >rape.
>I am disgusted, appalled, revolted, >sickened, disturbed and troubled,"
>that California decided to make this man >a governor.
Again, social conservatives were very angry with the RNC - before the
election - for promoting Schwarzenegger in that election in spite of his
(bragged-about) horrid life. You have much more in common with us social
conservatives than you'll ever admit.
maureen
>Maureen wrote:
>>In my eyes Arnold committed more than rape.
>>I am disgusted, appalled, revolted, sickened, disturbed and troubled
>>that California decided to make this man a governor.
>
> Again, social conservatives were very angry with the RNC - before the
>election - for promoting Schwarzenegger in that election in spite of his
>(bragged-about) horrid life. You have much more in common with us social
>conservatives than you'll ever admit.
It's not a question of social or liberal conservatism, Matt. It's a
question of morality, and the well-being of women in society. .
Gangbanging a woman is an immoral act and also, in essence, a hate
crime against women. Public knowledge of these acts , especially with
the blessing of the Governor of California, produces an environment in
which gangbanging is seen as okey dokey and erases the lines between
what is right and what is wrong. It practically condones gangbanging
as a public sport.
People who condone this act or defend this act are totally immoral .
It's not only women who are affected but the men who participate in
this kind of horror scene. They become inured to treating women as
sexual objects to be battered and bruised instead of warm , loving
people to be nurtured and loved.
Gangbanging was the kind of barbarian behaviour one only saw in wars
in the past. What in hell is happening in society that a gangbanging
indivdual is Governor of California.
maureen
GLC1173
>Gangbanging was the kind of barbarian >behaviour one only saw in wars
>in the past. What in hell is happening in >society that a gangbanging
>indivdual is Governor of California.
It's very simple. Kalifornia's bizarre "tolerance" ethic - just so long as
whatever's being tolerated is held in contempt in civilized areas - made it
possible for a punk who couldn't any more get elected in the liberal urban
Northeast than in Red Nation to get elected. As such, the "Groppenfuhrer" is a
coast-to-coast joke - even making the Doonesbury comic strip this week bragging
about how many women he'd groped!!
Troy
LOL
Troy
> maureen wrote:
>
> > >I read the Oui article about the group sex with the groupie,
> > >but you accused Schwarzenegger of rape. Please tell us when
> > >and where the rape occurred.
> > >
> > >Dick
> >
> > How do we know it wasn't rape!
> > maureen
>
> Bull pucky, you acused him of participating in a gang rape.
> Trot out your evidence.
Never happened. Evidence? Her?
>
>
> By the same line of logic I could say you has sex with a
> goat. How do we know you didn't!
Na. No goat would! :-)
>
>
> Dick
Alvin E. Toda
> >The act was worse than rape. It was an anti-social
> >act that demeaned all women and the Gropenfuehrer
> >with his publicized implicit blessing and boasting
> >of the act made women less safe in an increasingly
> >violent society .
> >
> >maureen
>
> Maureen,
> Here are the two sentences which are the sum total of
> the "evidence" behind your rape allegation. Please
> note that the poor innocent rape victim walked out
> onto the floor of the gym stark naked. There is
> absolutely nothing in his account, or anyone else's
> account, to suggest that she was anything other than
> a naked slut who wanted to get it on with a bunch of
> body builders. If you read the article you will
> discover that Arnold had not the slightest problem
> finding women anxious to have sex with him. Not a
> crime last time I checked.
>
> "Bodybuilders party a lot, and once in Gold's -- the
> gym in Venice, California, where all the top guys
> train -- there was a Black girl who came out naked.
> Everybody jumped on her and took her upstairs where
> we all got together."
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arnoldinter2.html
>
> Now, apologize.
>
> Jeff
Jeff....all the facts weren't there. I think it's
probable that the girl may have had some substance that
diminished her capacity to make decisions. It doesn't
matter whether it is intentional-- like the date-rape
drug cases-- or un-intentional-- like a self-induced,
alcoholic, drunken state-- anyone who takes advantage
of a woman in that state (as your statement suggests.
In fact, it doesn't sound to me like they even tried to
check her age) is committing rape in my book.
--alvin
Thumper
wrote:
What about women who like gang banging? Would you presume to call
them and the men involved when they are all consenting adults?
Thumper
Thumper
wrote:
Why do you presume that? Is it not conceivable to you that there are
women who love this sport?
Thumper
Thumper
>El Castor wrote:
>> "Alvin E. Toda" <a...@lava.net> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for coming to the old jerk's defense, but it won't work.
>>
>> Jeff
>
>I bet they didn't check her library card either.
>
>Dick
>
>
Are we talking about gang bangs or gang rapes?
Thumper
maureen
wrote:
Does your wife like gangbanging? Does your daughter? How about your
mother-in-law, your nieces, your neighbours? I don't know a single
woman who would like to be gangbanged . Not one! It's a physical and
sexual assault on a woman.
maureen
Bill
news:3f99fee1...@news1.on.sympatico.ca:
-stuff snipped-
> Does your wife like gangbanging? Does your daughter? How about your
> mother-in-law, your nieces, your neighbours? I don't know a single
> woman who would like to be gangbanged . Not one! It's a physical and
> sexual assault on a woman.
>
> maureen
It is time to stop this conversation (which I have not been in, but forced
to read.) No person of humanity could excuse the acts mentioned.
Please let this die, and go on to more humane things? Thanks.
GLC1173
>This distasteful subject came to public >attention because the Governor
>Elect of California engaged in this >behavior.
No - it came to public attention because he <I>bragged</i> about it in a
porn magazine! Anyone still doubt he's an idiot?
maureen
>
>No matter how you squirm and wriggle you can't find "rape" in anything
>Schwarzennegger has done. You are beneath contempt and owe him and
>the members of this group an apology.
Who's squirming? Who's Wriggling? I come from a place of caring
about women and children in this society, and not wanting to see them
made into objects to be sexually attacked by gangs of men !
It is you who are against contempt for defending this man and the
gangbanging of women as being normal . As Arnold said, ""everybody
JUMPED on" the woman involved and "TOOK her upstairs".
I don't see anything consensual here. In my book it was rape unless
there is more evidence from Arnold. But rape , or not, you are
condoning the act of gangbanging by objectifying the woman and
believing that the fact you think she is a "naked slut' makes it OK.
>Here are the two sentences which are the sum total of the "evidence"
>behind your rape allegation. Please note that the poor innocent rape
>victim walked out onto the floor of the gym stark naked. There is
>absolutely nothing in his account, or anyone else's account, to
>suggest that she was anything other than a naked slut who wanted to
>get it on with a bunch of body builders. If you read the article you
>will discover that Arnold had not the slightest problem finding women
>anxious to have sex with him. Not a crime last time I checked.
>
>"Bodybuilders party a lot, and once in Gold's -- the gym in Venice,
>California, where all the top guys train -- there was a Black girl who
>came out naked. Everybody jumped on her and took her upstairs where we
>all got together."
>http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arnoldinter2.html
>
>Now, apologize.
>
>Jeff
As I already wrote and it's worth repeating:
As Arnold said, ""everybody JUMPED on" the woman involved and "TOOK
her upstairs". Or, as you would say, " . . . everybody JUMPED on the
NAKED SLUT INVOLVED and took her upstairs. . You are condoning the
act of gangbanging by objectifying the woman and believing that the
fact you think she is a "naked slut' makes it OK. There was nothing
consensual about the act from what Arnold has said.
And what made it even worse is that the man publicly boasted about it
and made it seem it was a normal thing to do thus giving the act his
blessing thus, in essence, promoting the gangbanging of women, and
making society an even more unsafe place for women.
It was OK also for someone of your lowly type to say in the past of a
woman who had been raped, "If she wants to dress with such short
skirts she's asking for it". That kind of statement promotes hate
against women in society And society sees some of this hate in the
statistic that one female is raped every 12 minutes in the US. Your
kind of thinking has helped lead to a culture of violence.
When you defend gangbanging as a norm you are making society more
unsafe for women.
We live in male -dominated societies where the poorest people in the
country are women and children. They have enough to suffer without
adding a fear of gangbanging to the list. A man could walk naked
anywhere without being gangbanged. I live in a safe and fairly quiet
community , but even here there's a yearly event called, "Take back
the Night" because it's unsafe for women to walk alone at night.
Men don't have that fear.
I think that you have shown from your judgment of the woman what kind
of person you are and how you find it so easy to see women as sex
objects. "Naked slut" says it all. There's no male word for 'slut'.
I shall not be continuing with this subject. It's not my wont to spend
time with someone who condones gangbanging or has your sorry attitude
to so much in other areas that is for the good of society. Yuch !
Yuch! I'm outta here!
Back to my Mozart and my Shelley for peace and tranquillity and a
feeling that the world can be civilized. .
maureen
Troy
> Maureen,
>
> I don't think we need to hear any more about the sexual proclivities
> of all the women you know. Suffice it to say, no matter what the
> "activity", there will be some women who enjoy it. Too bad those
> women don't live up to your prudish values, Maureen, but you know
> what, I doubt they care what you think. The fact is that you
> recklessly, with wanton disregard for the truth, accused Arnold
> Schwarzenneger of "RAPE" when you presumably knew full well that there
> was no evidence or accusation of "RAPE". In my book, that makes you a
> liar. Why don't you simply admit your mistake? As the old saying
> goes, "A liar unrepentant is a liar twice over".
>
> "Another big American scandal is that the governor of California was
> involved in a gang rape when he was younger."
> Maureen, 10/23/03, soc.retirement
>
> Jeff
The bitch will stay in the killfile.
Alvin E. Toda
Jeff's brains are in the wrong location below his belt.
It'll take another generation for him to grow up if he
doesn't croak by then.
Alvin E. Toda
> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:15:19 -1000, "Alvin E. Toda" <a...@lava.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Jeff....all the facts weren't there. I think it's
> >probable that the girl may have had some substance
> >that diminished her capacity to make decisions.
>
> Why do you presume that? Is it not conceivable to
> you that there are women who love this sport? Thumper
I don't presume that. Notice I have used the word
"probable" which implies some uncertainty with the
facts.
An no, I don't think women are the same as men. I think
that they are not normal and in fact, are pathological,
when they wished to be raped. I am presuming of course,
that you agree that s&m sexual practices are not the
norm. On the other hand, you may agree and claim that
while unconventional, the woman has a very sober desire
to be abused that can be deemed consensual. In that
case, I would agree with Maureen that her soul and mind
has been abused, and that what she is experiencing
during this kind of sex is a continuation of that
abuse. A governor of a large state should be more
sensitive to this issue. It's unworthy of him.
Now beyond that, it seems that the men have made very
little, or no effort to determine if she was underage,
or of diminished capacity. That, to me, spells rape
with a capital R. I would totally disagree with
Arnold's interpretation that some of the guys don't
have sex because they may have been too shy (his
misogyny is coming through loud and clear). It seems
more probable that they may have realised that they may
have been commiting rape, and don't have the courage to
stop the other guys. This says tons about the state of
mind and motive of the men that did have sex-- that
they would brook no opposition from those who thought
it unwise to proceed without checking. If this is true,
then I think that rape has been committed.
No one can have sex with underage, mentally unstable or
deranged, or drunken partners who may be on an
artificial high of some sort, and claim it is
consensual.
--alvin
Thumper
wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Thumper wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:15:19 -1000, "Alvin E. Toda" <a...@lava.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Jeff....all the facts weren't there. I think it's
>> >probable that the girl may have had some substance
>> >that diminished her capacity to make decisions.
>>
>> Why do you presume that? Is it not conceivable to
>> you that there are women who love this sport? Thumper
>
>I don't presume that. Notice I have used the word
>"probable" which implies some uncertainty with the
>facts.
>
>An no, I don't think women are the same as men. I think
>that they are not normal and in fact, are pathological,
>when they wished to be raped. I am presuming of course,
>that you agree that s&m sexual practices are not the
>norm. On the other hand, you may agree and claim that
>while unconventional, the woman has a very sober desire
>to be abused that can be deemed consensual. In that
>case, I would agree with Maureen that her soul and mind
>has been abused, and that what she is experiencing
>during this kind of sex is a continuation of that
>abuse.
Do you have any experience with this?
I suggest to you that what turns others on may appear to you to be
something other than it is.
>A governor of a large state should be more
>sensitive to this issue. It's unworthy of him.
>
How did we get to abuse? I know women that love to be gang banged.
This is not abuse to them at all.
>Now beyond that, it seems that the men have made very
>little, or no effort to determine if she was underage,
>or of diminished capacity. That, to me, spells rape
>with a capital R.
Why do you insist on presuming things not in evidence?
>I would totally disagree with
>Arnold's interpretation that some of the guys don't
>have sex because they may have been too shy (his
>misogyny is coming through loud and clear). It seems
>more probable that they may have realised that they may
>have been commiting rape, and don't have the courage to
>stop the other guys. This says tons about the state of
>mind and motive of the men that did have sex-- that
>they would brook no opposition from those who thought
>it unwise to proceed without checking. If this is true,
>then I think that rape has been committed.
>
>No one can have sex with underage, mentally unstable or
>deranged, or drunken partners who may be on an
>artificial high of some sort, and claim it is
>consensual.
>
There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that any of the above happened.
Thumper
>--alvin
rumpelstiltskin
wrote:
Camejo spoke at the "bring the troops home" rally today
in San Francisco. The most startling thing for me that he
said was "If Schwarzenegger were brown or black or poor,
he'd be in jail now."
The rally was pretty small. I'd say 5,000 at most. I
hear the one in Washington was much bigger. I was of
two minds about going myself, since, bad as the situation
is, I'm not at all sure that an abrupt withdrawal now is a
great idea. I sure hope that $70,000,000,000 of the
$87,000,000,000 we're about to put up isn't going to
turn up missing, though.
rumpelstiltskin
wrote:
>Back to my Mozart and my Shelley for peace and tranquillity and a
>feeling that the world can be civilized. .
I'm listening to Isang Yun at the moment. He's South Korean and
died a few years ago. He's not a household name yet, but I have a
very strong feeling he's going to be more and more appreciated.
http://www.yun-gesellschaft.de/index2.htm
Troy
> Maureen,
>
> No matter how you squirm and wriggle you can't find "rape" in anything
> Schwarzennegger has done. You are beneath contempt and owe him and
> the members of this group an apology.
>
> Here are the two sentences which are the sum total of the "evidence"
> behind your rape allegation. Please note that the poor innocent rape
> victim walked out onto the floor of the gym stark naked. There is
> absolutely nothing in his account, or anyone else's account, to
> suggest that she was anything other than a naked slut who wanted to
> get it on with a bunch of body builders. If you read the article you
> will discover that Arnold had not the slightest problem finding women
> anxious to have sex with him. Not a crime last time I checked.
>
> "Bodybuilders party a lot, and once in Gold's -- the gym in Venice,
> California, where all the top guys train -- there was a Black girl who
> came out naked. Everybody jumped on her and took her upstairs where we
> all got together."
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/arnoldinter2.html
>
> Now, apologize.
>
> Jeff
The bitch lied again and the rest of the liberals suck it up.
Troy
> You left out "smelly".
I stay upwind!
Alvin E. Toda
> On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:25:44 -1000, "Alvin E. Toda" <a...@lava.net>
> wrote:
>
> >An no, I don't think women are the same as men. I
> >think that they are not normal and in fact, are
> >pathological, when they wished to be raped. I am
> >presuming of course, that you agree that s&m sexual
> >practices are not the norm. On the other hand, you
> >may agree and claim that while unconventional, the
> >woman has a very sober desire to be abused that can
> >be deemed consensual. In that case, I would agree
> >with Maureen that her soul and mind has been abused,
> >and that what she is experiencing during this kind
> >of sex is a continuation of that abuse.
> Do you have any experience with this?
>
> I suggest to you that what turns others on may appear
> to you to be something other than it is.
I am not a woman. And obviously you deny them their
feelings on this issue. With men I think I can agree
with you because many aspects of their sexuality seem
so visual, so fetish-like.
With women, the only instances that I can recall are
women that consider themselves to be "bisexual". And
this is why I think it may be not normal because "real"
women, both lesbians and straights, don't even function
as you suppose (ie that it can be normal). Maureen has
definitely got a point.
> >I would totally disagree with Arnold's
> >interpretation that some of the guys don't have sex
> >because they may have been too shy (his misogyny is
> >coming through loud and clear). It seems more
> >probable that they may have realised that they may
> >have been commiting rape, and don't have the courage
> >to stop the other guys. This says tons about the
> >state of mind and motive of the men that did have
> >sex-- that they would brook no opposition from those
> >who thought it unwise to proceed without checking.
> >If this is true, then I think that rape has been
> >committed.
> >
> >No one can have sex with underage, mentally unstable
> >or deranged, or drunken partners who may be on an
> >artificial high of some sort, and claim it is
> >consensual.
>
> There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that any of the above
> happened. Thumper
And we have NO EVIDENCE that it did NOT happen. This is
a judgement call. It sure looks like it did to me.
Whereas you deny that it happened at all.
--alvin
Alvin E. Toda
> Camejo spoke at the "bring the troops home" rally
> today in San Francisco. The most startling thing for
> me that he said was "If Schwarzenegger were brown or
> black or poor, he'd be in jail now."
>
> The rally was pretty small. I'd say 5,000 at most.
> I hear the one in Washington was much bigger. I was
> of two minds about going myself, since, bad as the
> situation is, I'm not at all sure that an abrupt
> withdrawal now is a great idea. I sure hope that
> $70,000,000,000 of the $87,000,000,000 we're about to
> put up isn't going to turn up missing, though.
Interesting, I was thinking of attending the rally in
Hawaii but had so many things to do at home yesterday--
one of which was some car repair. These events have
been quite wide in the breath of protest. It seems to
be more than just about "bringing the troops home".
Perhaps this time, this protest wont end with the
assasination of a future Martin Luther King, Jr.
Regarding the Schwarzenegger statement, did Comejo also
imply that S. would be in jail if his victims were
white as well (while he were brown,,,etc. a purely
hypothetical case, but it seems to be quite true)??
--alvin
lisieux
> From maureen
>
> > Another big American scandal is that the governor of California was
> > are rewarded... make 'em governor. It's not a lesson I would pass on
> > to posterity.
>
Funny, however he should be okay if alien robots show up looking for
some obscure lady who is going to be the birth-mother of the next UN
General Secretary.
rumpelstiltskin
<justusc...@not-here.com> wrote:
>Accusations of rape are traditionally based on evidence -- not the
>absence of evidence. You and Maureen make quite a pair.
?? Did I miss a memo? I thought absence of evidence was
proof, these days.