Re: The Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858 (Slight Return)
Gary
>The Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858 (Slight Return)
>
>by publius
>
>Presidential candidates Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas held this
>debate on April 16, 1858 at the National Constitution Center in
>Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
>
>MODERATORS:
>CHARLIE GIBSON, ABC NEWS
>GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS
>
>
> MR. GIBSON: So we're going to begin with opening statements, and
>we had a flip of the coin, and the brief opening statement first from
>Mr. Lincoln.
>
> LINCOLN: Thank you very much, Charlie and George, and thanks to
>all in the audience and who are out there. I appear before you today
>for the purpose of discussing the leading political topics which now
>agitate the public mind.
>
> We are now far into the fifth year since a policy was initiated
>with the avowed object, and confident promise, of putting an end to
>slavery agitation. Under the operation of that policy, that agitation
>has not only not ceased, but has constantly augmented.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: I’m sorry to interrupt, but do you think Mr.
>Douglas loves America as much you do?
>
> LINCOLN: Sure I do.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: But who loves America more?
>
> LINCOLN: I’d prefer to get on with my opening statement George.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: If your love for America were eight apples, how
>many apples would Senator Douglas’s love be?
>
> LINCOLN: Eight.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Proceed.
>
> LINCOLN: In my opinion, slavery will not cease, until a crisis
>shall have been reached and passed. "A house divided against itself
>cannot stand." I believe this government cannot endure permanently
>half slave and half free.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Excuse me, did an Elijah H. Johnson attend your
>church?
>
> LINCOLN: When I was a boy in Illinois forty years ago, yes. I
>think he was a deacon.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Are you aware that he regularly called Kentucky “a
>land of swine and whores”?
>
> LINCOLN: Sounds right -- his ex-wife was from Kentucky.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Why did you remain in the church after hearing
>those statements?
>
> LINCOLN: I was eight.
>
> DOUGLAS: This is an important question George -- it's an issue
>that certainly will be raised in the fall.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you denounce him?
>
> LINCOLN: I’d like to get back to the divided house if I may.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you denounce and reject him?
>
> LINCOLN: If it will make you shut up, yes, I denounce and reject
>him.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you denounce and reject him with sugar on top?
>
> LINCOLN: Yes.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: No takesies-backsies?
>
> LINCOLN: Yes.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Whoa, so you would consider a takesie-backsie?
>
> LINCOLN: That’s not what I meant…
>
> DOUGLAS: When I was 11, my grandpappy and I chopped wood and shot
>bears.
>
> LINCOLN: Ahem, I do not expect the Union to be dissolved -- I do
>not expect the house to fall -- but I do expect slavery will cease to
>be divided. It will become all one thing, or all the other...
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you love America this much (extending fingers),
>this much (extending hands slightly), or thiiiiiis much (extending
>hands broadly)?
>
> LINCOLN: I think we covered this…
>
> GIBSON: If I may interrupt…
>
> LINCOLN: Please.
>
> GIBSON: I noticed, Mr. Lincoln, that your American flag pin was
>upside down…
>
> LINCOLN: Yes, the wind caught it. Now, as I was saying...
>
> GIBSON: We get questions about this all the time over at Powerline
>and on Hannity’s talk show. Mr. Douglas has said this is a major
>vulnerability for you in the fall. So I’ll ask again – do you love
>America?
>
> LINCOLN: (scowling with a forced smile). Yes.
>
> GIBSON: If your love for America were ice cream, what flavor would
>it be?
>
> LINCOLN: (pausing with disgust and turning back to camera) Either
>the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it; or its
>advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in
>all the States, old as well as new -- North as well as South.
>
> DOUGLAS: He didn’t answer the question Charlie. This fall, that
>question is going to be on the minds of the American public. I’ve
>proudly stated that my love for America is Very Berry Strawberry.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me ask it another way. If Elijah Johnson were
>chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream, would you eat it? Or would you
>decline to eat it?
>
> DOUGLAS: Personally, as for me, I would decline to eat it.
>
> LINCOLN (shaking his head): Let any one who doubts, carefully
>contemplate that now almost complete legal combination -- piece of
>machinery, so to speak -- compounded of the Nebraska doctrine, and the
>Dred Scott decision.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: We’ll get to Dred Scott in the second hour, time
>willing, but I want to get back to the ice cream question. And that's
>what we'll do, after the break.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/6eucoa
Now I've heard it all. Likening George W Bush to a Chimp -- I can
understand. But likening Obama to Douglas or Lincoln is beyond my
powers of imagination.
Rumpelstiltskin
>The Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858 (Slight Return)
>
>by publius
>
>Presidential candidates Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas held this
>debate on April 16, 1858 at the National Constitution Center in
>Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
>
>MODERATORS:
>CHARLIE GIBSON, ABC NEWS
>GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS
>
>
> MR. GIBSON: So we're going to begin with opening statements, and
>we had a flip of the coin, and the brief opening statement first from
>Mr. Lincoln.
>
> LINCOLN: Thank you very much, Charlie and George, and thanks to
>all in the audience and who are out there. I appear before you today
>for the purpose of discussing the leading political topics which now
>agitate the public mind.
<snip>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Excuse me, did an Elijah H. Johnson attend your
>church?
>
> LINCOLN: When I was a boy in Illinois forty years ago, yes. I
>think he was a deacon.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Are you aware that he regularly called Kentucky “a
>land of swine and whores”?
>
> LINCOLN: Sounds right -- his ex-wife was from Kentucky.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Why did you remain in the church after hearing
>those statements?
>
> LINCOLN: I was eight.
>
> DOUGLAS: This is an important question George -- it's an issue
>that certainly will be raised in the fall.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you denounce him?
>
> LINCOLN: I’d like to get back to the divided house if I may.
>
> STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you denounce and reject him?
>
> LINCOLN: If it will make you shut up, yes, I denounce and reject
>him.
<snip>
> GIBSON: I noticed, Mr. Lincoln, that your American flag pin was
>upside down…
>
> LINCOLN: Yes, the wind caught it. Now, as I was saying...
>
> GIBSON: We get questions about this all the time over at Powerline
>and on Hannity’s talk show. Mr. Douglas has said this is a major
>vulnerability for you in the fall. So I’ll ask again – do you love
>America?
<snip>
Love it!
Rumpelstiltskin
>It's a joke, son.
Obama is no joke to Gary.
Did you catch where Hillary said it was too soon for her to
give up, because anything could happen: remember that
Robert Kennedy was assassinated in June. My jaw was
dropping as I heard that. What was she thinking! If it
seemed such a plainly bad thing to say to me as I was
hearing it, how could that not register with here before she
said it. The most charitable thing is to assign it to fatigue
because of the strain of the long, hard campaign.
It's especially bad because we know that Obama is in
some special danger, not out of politics, but out of racism.
Al. E. Crocodile
"Gary" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
news:s1de341rq04llks69...@4ax.com...
but you're a racist piece of shit, like all good, worthless hillbillies,
miss them old water hose,billy club, and police dawg days goober ?
get all nostalgic thinking about them lynching picnics and
KKK rallies ?
why don't you go postal, like a good hillbilly, and get rid of that trailer
trash family of yours,
America doesn't need any more baby killing, church bombing, cross
burning,murdering,raping,
deranged hillbillies
Gary
>On Sat, 24 May 2008 00:17:30 GMT, Rumpelstiltskin
><PleaseDoNot...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 23 May 2008 16:15:18 -0700, Rita <Ri...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 23 May 2008 17:19:38 -0400, Gary <n...@none.com> wrote:
<snip>
>>>>Now I've heard it all. Likening George W Bush to a Chimp -- I can
>>>>understand. But likening Obama to Douglas or Lincoln is beyond my
>>>>powers of imagination.
>>>
>>>It's a joke, son.
>>
>>
>>
>> Obama is no joke to Gary.
>>
>> Did you catch where Hillary said it was too soon for her to
>>give up, because anything could happen: remember that
>>Robert Kennedy was assassinated in June. My jaw was
>>dropping as I heard that. What was she thinking! If it
>>seemed such a plainly bad thing to say to me as I was
>>hearing it, how could that not register with here before she
>>said it. The most charitable thing is to assign it to fatigue
>>because of the strain of the long, hard campaign.
>>
>> It's especially bad because we know that Obama is in
>>some special danger, not out of politics, but out of racism.
>
>It was a ghoulish thing to say and my thought is that the
>superdelegates will see it as beyond the pale and act to
>end this primary sooner rather than later.
She simply pointed out that "stuff happens". What if she dropped
out and then Obama tripped over his prayer rug -- broke his neck --
and couldn't run ? Without her in there -- odds are the Democrats
would be forced to pick a white man who would lead them to a landslide
victory in November. Wouldn't that be a hell of a disappointment for
the African American and feminist communities ?
>She is obviously tired and not at the top of her game, but
>her semi-apology did not give any confidence that she realized
>just how badly she had messed up.
>
>The U.S. history of having presidents and presidential candidates
>assassinated is not a pretty one -- and how many others were saved
>after assassination attempts? Not to mention Martin Luther King and
>Malcom X.
>
>There is something about wanting to win at any cost whatsoever
>that is both sad and offputting at the same time.
>
>I was feeling sympathy for her lately to see her striving so hard
>in what everyone seems to know is a losing cause. I admired her
>fortitude.
>
>But today she lost my sympathy.
>
>Think of Teddy Kennedy hearing of this -- how awful. I believe
>the 40th anniversary of RFK's assassination is coming up this
>June.
You mean Teddy "Ghost of Election Past" Kennedy ?
Olly Mensch
= = I find it fascinating that she revealed - without proper censure of
her own thoughts - what was going through her mind; the fears for her
own safety, among other things. I do not blame her at all; it is very
real. Actually, I am concerned about Obama, since there is a racist
element involved; I hope nothing will happen to him, simply because it
would stir up racism yet again, with unpredictable results.
= = It occurred to me that some people might interpret Hillary's
comments as being typical of a woman, and conclude that it is better not
to vote for a (weak) woman.
= = You wrote that she might be tired; well, yes, of course. Will that
give anti-feminists fodder for their mill?? It should not - but it will,
I guess.
== In contrast to what you feel about her apology, I found nothing wrong
with it, and believe she did, indeed, realize the implications of what
she had said.
= = You mentioned the U.S history of assassinations of pres. candidates
is "not pretty." Before agreeing with you, I would have to study the
history of European countries - and others - to judge ours.
= = You suggested how awful her comment would be for Ted Kennedy; well,
yes and no. I don't know about 'awful", since it is hardly a new
revelation to him; besides, he is currently preoccupied with his own
failing health.
= = All of these above points are, admittedly, minor ones; yet enough
for me to convey that , in this case, and despite the fact that I
thoroughly dislike Hillary, I did not think they were relevant or
important points; but it will be fodder for feminists who might
criticize her for being weak and vulnerable =- and anti-feminists will
triumphantly maintain that women do not "belong' in public
office,etc.etc.
= = The more she "messes up", the more I worry since it almost
guarantees that Obama will be the winner, a nd, in the worst way, I do
not want him to be our next President, and let me assure you that it has
nothing to do with his color -= but with everything else connected with
him. An d I regret that, since it was a a pleasure to watch such a
highly educated and intelligent black man run for the office, but
despite those advantages, there ae too many grave doubts about his
policies, his former (???) connections, his inexperienced and flawed
attitudes toward our national foreign policy and other matters of
policy, not to mention his undoubtedly very questionable connection with
the Rev. Wright, where Obama was unable to wiggle himself out of that
dilemma, no matter how glibly he phrased his responses. I personally
can only hope that McCain will win, not that I am that enthusiastic
about him, but to prevent the election of Obama.= = =Olly
Gary
wrote:
>Rita - several - not terribly important - points, re: Hillary's "gaffe."
>= = I find it fascinating that she revealed - without proper censure of
>her own thoughts - what was going through her mind; the fears for her
>own safety, among other things. I do not blame her at all; it is very
>real. Actually, I am concerned about Obama, since there is a racist
>element involved; I hope nothing will happen to him, simply because it
>would stir up racism yet again, with unpredictable results.
There's a thought. I would bet that if Obama is trailing in the
polls in October, some of the "bruthers" may decide he'd be more
valuable as a martyr.
I dislike him because he is an alien.
Rumpelstiltskin
>On Sat, 24 May 2008 00:17:30 GMT, Rumpelstiltskin
<snip>
>> Did you catch where Hillary said it was too soon for her to
>>give up, because anything could happen: remember that
>>Robert Kennedy was assassinated in June. My jaw was
>>dropping as I heard that. What was she thinking! If it
>>seemed such a plainly bad thing to say to me as I was
>>hearing it, how could that not register with here before she
>>said it. The most charitable thing is to assign it to fatigue
>>because of the strain of the long, hard campaign.
>>
>> It's especially bad because we know that Obama is in
>>some special danger, not out of politics, but out of racism.
>
>It was a ghoulish thing to say and my thought is that the
>superdelegates will see it as beyond the pale and act to
>end this primary sooner rather than later.
>
>She is obviously tired and not at the top of her game, but
>her semi-apology did not give any confidence that she realized
>just how badly she had messed up.
>
>The U.S. history of having presidents and presidential candidates
>assassinated is not a pretty one -- and how many others were saved
>after assassination attempts? Not to mention Martin Luther King and
>Malcom X.
>
>There is something about wanting to win at any cost whatsoever
>that is both sad and offputting at the same time.
>
>I was feeling sympathy for her lately to see her striving so hard
>in what everyone seems to know is a losing cause. I admired her
>fortitude.
>
>But today she lost my sympathy.
>
>Think of Teddy Kennedy hearing of this -- how awful. I believe
>the 40th anniversary of RFK's assassination is coming up this
>June.
>>
>>
>>
>>
I hadn't noticed you had any great sympathy for
Hillary before, but she hasn't lost my sympathy. I'm
just chalking up her comment to fatigue and
disappointment. It was a really bad gaffe though.
She doesn't seem to realize how bad it was, though
maybe she's still depending on her handlers who
have not served her all that well. I don't see how
she couldn't realize how bad the gaffe was. She's
not as smooth an campaigner as Bill was, which is
not to say she wouldn't be a good administrator if
she could avoid raising other people's hackles so
much that they got in her way.
I'm sorry Hillary seems to be losing, but I'm delighted
to have Obama as the candidate. It's just too bad we
couldn't have had two such good candidates serially
instead of simultaneously.
I sent the Lincoln-Douglas debate out to all my email
people in who are in America. I figured there wouldn't
be much point sending it elsewhere.
The Republicans seem to have really blown
themselves up by harping on Wright. Now they'll
have to disown all their own nut-case preachers or
look so plainly hypocritical that even the dumbest
people couldn't miss it. Lily-livered attempts to have
things both ways such as McCain just attempted
look all too plainly like what they are - just politics.
The Republican party really needs the support of
its nut-case preachers, and now the party has
hampered its own ability to pass them off as sane.