Vivek & Vijaya, Women Less Intelligent?
Parijata2
So I have asked both Vivek and Vijaya if they believed women are less
intelligent. Neihter one of them has really answered me. With all that Sasnkrit
knowledge, they certainly must have an opinion. However, I would recommend they
read some English and hear the instructions of the pure devotee Srila
Prabhupada on this.
Jyotirmayi sent me her report, WOMEN IN ISKCON IN PRABHUPADA'S TIMES. She
specifically mentioned to me in a letter that this report has been accepted by
GBC, temples presidents, etc. So, let us see if Vijaya and Vivek disagree. :)
**************************************************************************
****************
WOMEN IN ISKCON IN PRABHUPADA'S TIMES
By: Jyotirmayi Devi Dasi
Historical Report:
"From about 1965 up to 1974, time when Srila Prabhupada had to get less and
less involved in temple management because of translating work and the
tremendous increase of disciples and temples, the women devotee's situation
changed very little from what Srila Prabhupada had originally established. From
1974 their situation started to significantly detreiorate and got worse very
fast until it reached its paroxysm before Srila Prabhupada's departure.
When Prabhupada decided to accept women in the movement, he did so according to
the reasoning he himself quotes in the Chaitanya Charitamrta, M.L., Ch. 23
purport of verse 105: "To broadcast the cult of Krishna Consciousness, one has
to learn the possibility of renunciation in terms of country, time and
candidate.....He must avoid the principle of niyamagraha, that is, he should
not try to perform the impossible. What is possible in one country may not be
possible in another. The acarya's duty is to accept the essence of devotional
service. There may be a little change here and a little change there as far as
yukta-vairagya (proper renunciation) is concerned...The essence of devotional
service must be taken into consideration, and not the outward paraphernalia...
A vaishnava is immediately purified, provided he follows the rules and
regulations of his bonafide spiritual master. It is not necessary that the
rules and regulations followed in India be exactly the same as those in Europe,
America and other Western countries. Simply imitating without effect is called
niyamagraha. Not following the regulative principles but instead living
extravagantly is also called niyamagraha... We should not follow regulative
principles without an effect, nor should we fail to accept the regulative
principles. What is required is a special technique according to country, time
and candidate...."
Srila Prabhupada followed this reasoning concerning not only the acceptation of
women in the ashramas, but also lots of other subject matters, such as the
practice of renunciation, which is being dealt with in the quote, preaching
methods, only a partial introduction of Vedic culture, Deity worship, etc....
Everything that he introduced or did not introduce was deeply thought about,
very carefully and logically analysed. When he was asked, several years later,
if he would have preferred to establish the movement differently, he answered
that if it was to be done again he would do it exactly the same way.
Despite the fact that he had been criticized several times in India, because of
all the changes he was introducing, Srila Prabhupada kept them and justified
his position regarding the women devotees once more in the Chaitanya
Charitamrta A.L. ch. 7, purport of verses 32 and 38. "An acarya who comes for
the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform to a sterotype, for he
must find the ways and means by which Krishna Consciousness may be spread.
Sometimes jealous persons criticize the Krishna Consciousness movement because
it engages equally both boys and girls in distribution of love of Godhead. Not
knowing that boys and girls in countries like Europe and America mix very
freely, these fools and rascals criticize the boys and girls in Krishna
Consciousness for intermingling. But these rascals should consider that one
cannot suddenly change a community's social customs. However, since both boys
and girls are being trained to become preachers those girls are not ordinary
girls but are as good as their brothers who are preaching Krishna
Consciousness. Therefore to engage both boys and girls in fully transcendental
activities is a policy intended to spread the Krishna Consciousness movement...
The results of this are wonderful. Both men and women are preaching the gospel
of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Lord Krishna with redoubled strength...
Therefore it is a principle that a preacher must strictly follow the rules and
regulations laid down in the shastra's yet at the same time devise a means by
which the preaching work to reclaim the fallen may go with full force."
By accepting women in the temples and giving them the brahmacarini status,
Prabhupada was not pretending, he gave them all the same rights and duties of
the brahmacaris in the guru's ashrama. The same thing applied when he gave them
Brahman initiation. The women devotees had exactly the same spiritual
activities, the same tasks, the same possibilities to progress spiritually and
they were entitled to the same respect. At that time everything was done
according to the abilities and the spiritual advancement of a person and not
according to sex. Prabhupada did not make any distinction.
Continued
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
This posting brought to you via the SRV Automoderator v2.0.62 alpha 2/15/98
SRV home page at http://www.pobox.com/~srv
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Parijata2
ISKCON WOMEN IN PRABHUPADA'S TIMES - A Reprot by Jyotirmayi devi dasi
* Women, as well as men, accompanied Prabhupada when he was traveling and
served him as secretaries, as did Arundhati, or served him personally as did
Janaki.
* Women led kirtana's: Jamuna, Kausalya, Lilavati were amongst the best.
* They gave classes and public lectures. The most renowned was Jadurani who was
endowed with great erudition.
* Women were in charge of the Deities and performed public aratis. Jamuna,
Shilavati, Rukmini and Mandakini were the most famous.
* Men and women circumabulated Tulasi together without mixing, forming a circle
separted in two halves, one half for the men, the other half for the women.
* Women payed dandavats to Prabhupada.
* Women offered garlands to Prabhupada personally or to his picture.
* Women performed aratais to Prabhupada's picture on his vyasana during
Guru-puja.
* Women devotees were on one side of the temple room, men devotees on the other
side, during kirtanas as well as classes and japa. (*See note #3)
* During Guru-puja, men and women offered flowers simultaneously to Prabhupada,
forming two lines, and women as well as men paid their obiesances in front of
the vyasana.
* When Srila Prabhupada was personally present, women as well as men could
stand next to him.
* During harinamas (called at that time sankirtanas), Prabhupada had asked that
the women stand between two groups of men, one in front and one behind so that
they could be protected.
* Women wrote articles in magazines. Prabhupada personally asked Bibhavati who
had been journalist previously to do so.
* As far as the service of temple president was concerned, Srila Prabhupada
included husband and wife, he recommended them to be father and mother of the
devotees they were in charge of.
* Women were doing things that, later on, they were forbidden to do in front of
Srila Prabhupada himself; Jamuna was leading kirtans in front of him, Himavati
gave pubic confrences, Jyotirmayi and Rukmini performed arati in front of him.
* Women had access to important responsibilities: Jadurani was in charge of the
BBT (Bhaktivedanta Book Trust) painting dpeartment, Jamuna or Govinda dasi were
proposed as the GBC (Governing Body Commisioners) by Prabhupada, Kauslalya
organzied pandals, Varanasi was temple commander, Jyotirmayi BBT chief
translator, etc.
* The grhasta status was very respected. Prabhupada was very proud of his
couples who were opening temples together.
* Men and women chanted japa together in the temple room during the morning
program.
Thank you Jyotirmayi prabhu.
YS,
Prtha devi dasi
Parijata2
More of Jyotirmai's Reprot:
WOMEN'S LEVEL OF INTELLIGENCE
Srila Prabhupada's statement and the scriputre's statements about the women
being less intelligent has brought a lot of misunderstanding and men's ruthless
behavior towards women. But what does "less intelligent" exactly mean?
* kalau sudra sambhavat: in the age of Kali, everyone is sudra. In the Vedic
times, women were considered on the same level as vaisyas and sudras. The
brahmanas and kstriyas of those days were so elevated that women were no doubt
on an inferior level. But in Kali-yuga, men have degraded to the level o fthe
women, everyone being sudra, and cannot anymore pose themselves as highly
superior.
* In Bhagavad-gita (3, 42-43), Krishna says: "The working senses are superior
to dull matter, mind is higher than the senses, intelligence is still higher
than the mind, and he (soul) is even higher than the intelligence....one should
steady the mind by deliberate intelligence." According to this definition, an
intelligent person is one able to control the mind with his intelligence. The
mind's activities are thinking, feeling, willing. Therefore it can be concluded
that a woman is less intelligent because she has harder time than a man to
control her emotions than for a man. But it does not mean that a woman is
totally deprived of most intelligence, as it has unfortunately often been
established in the movement. It is not that one goes from the most intelligent
man down to the most stupid, and then only comes the most intelligent women
down to the most stupid. If we rate men and women's intelligence on a scale, it
is not that man's intelligence occupies the highest section and women's the
lowest, but the two overlap.
Of course, it is certainly true that if one takes the most intelligent men in
the world and the most intelligent women, the men might be on a higher level
than the women." (See NOTE below)
*There are various facets to intelligence - intelligence as controller of the
mind, material intelligence, spiritual intelligence - and various definitions.
Srila Prabhupada once defined it as "sharp memory and good discrimination." The
following examples illustrate its different meanings:
* Srila Prabhupada said to a lady disciple: "Well, if you think you are a woman
that means you are less intelligent, because you are suppose to understand that
you are a spirit soul and that your real identity is transcendental to these
bodily designations." (Sadaputa)
* When Srila Prabhupada was asked if Jyotirmayi should finish her studies in
ethnology (study of religions and cultures) in order to teach vaishnavaism in
the universities, he answered, "yes, she is very intelligent girl, she can do
it." (Yogesvara)
* "Another examination will be held sometime in 1971 on the 4 books,
Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam, Teachings Of Lord Chaitanya and the Nectar of
Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded the title
Bhakti-vedanta. I want that all my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit
this title of Bhakti-vedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will
continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhakti-vedanta
will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975 all my disciples will be
allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my
program." (lettter to Hamsadutta, 1968)
* "Regarding your questions about the examination to be given, the girls will
also be able to take these. In Krishna Consciousness there is no distinction
between girls and boys. The girls also may become preachers if they are able."
(letter to Himavati, 1969)
* "Now I see that in our Society the girls are more intelligent than the boys."
(Letter to Krishna Devi, 1970)
__________________________________________________
NOTE: MY TWO CENTS: I cannot agree it is true that if one takes the most
intelligent men in the world and the most intelligent women, the men might be
on a higher level than the women. Although I am suspecting this might be
Jyotirmayi's humility, though Prabhupada did not say this. I received some
information from a man who points out that the highest measured intelegence
which is on record belong to Marilyn Vos Savont, a woman.
There are many highly intelligent women in this age who most likely would be an
equal match to men.
Having taught Gurukula I saw some very smart girls. They excelled, sometimes
more than the boys. If another kind of intelligence is what is being referred
to, it is not being specified and should be proven too. In Kali-yuga, as
previously mention, everyone is sudra, even men.
Regarding a woman having a harder time controlling her emotions than a man, I
am not so sure of this. While women are emotional creatures, I have seen many
women almost matronly-like. Very manly. Tough. They had no trouble controlling
their emotions at all. It is individual. I wish to add that women don't have to
become like that, giving up their femenity, in order to control emotions. I
suspect that happens because women are told that is the only way they can
succeed. To become a man. However, women can still remain femenine and have
sense control.
Regarding men and emotions, my understanding is that Personalism contains
emotions and it is only impersonalism that is devoid of them. The above is
speaking of controlling them not being devoid of them. However, too many people
think they are one and the same. No. To be out of touch with one's feelings is
to be out of touch with Personalism, Krishna Consciousness. Lord Chaitanya was
full of emotions. He was often criticized for this. Nevertheless, he continued
to do so, knowing it was spiritual. While a woman's emotions may not be
spiritual, they also might be. Or at least as time goes on and we are all in
this fire of purification that is the direction they may lead her in. So maybe
her emotions are put there for a beneficial reason? Also, some say that men
have been taught they are weak for showing thier emotins and as a result are
really more out of control (only those who are not practicing sense control,
starting with the mind), due to smoldering inside. Of coure, Jyotirmayi has a
right to her opinion and I hope she will forgive me for having a slightly
different one. Though as previously mentioned, I suspect she is taking the
humble position. I highly respect her and all the work she put into this.
Parijata2
Jyotirmayi's Reprot Continued:
Pleace of men and women in the temple room:
***************************************************
Here are some of Prabhupada's reactins when women started to be rejected from
their rightful place in the temple room:
* Whne women were made to stand behind men in the back of the temple room
instead of side by side as established formerly, women went on different
occasions to Prabhupada who simply answered: "Why, the men on one side, the
women on one side."
* When the women were made to offer flowers after the men during guru-puja,
instead of simultaneously, Srila Prabhupada, informed by Ekayani, gave the same
answer: "Why, the men from one side, the women from one side." (Ekayani)
* A devotee woman recalls that she was once in Srila Prabhupada's room for a
darshan. There were hundreds of visiting devotees from neighboring temples.
Before lecturing he insisted that the women (who were all at the back) come and
sit up front on one side of the vyasana. At least 5 sanyasis and about 20 men
had to move to make room for the women. Srila Prabhupada sat quietly for about
5 minutes while everyone was relocating themselves and getting situated.
* One challenger argues, criticizing Srila Prabhupada for his application of
the principle of spiritual equality. "If men and women chant together, then why
don't they sleep in the same room together?" Srila Prabhupada replied that,
although men and women in ISKCON have equal rights, there is a clear line of
demarcation indicating where intermingling of the sexes should end. (Manasa
Ganga)
* "I do not know what these things inventions are goin on. That is our only
business, to invent something new program? We have already got our vaisnava
standard. That is sufficient for Madhavacarya, Ramanujcarya, it was sufficient
for Lord Chaitanya, six Goswamis, for Bhaktivinoda Thakur, for my Guru Maharaja
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, for me, for all big, big saints and acaryas in our
line, why it shall be inadequate for my disciples so that they must manufacture
something? That is not possible. Who has introduced these things, that the
women cannot have chanting japa in the temple, cannot perform the arati and so
many things. That is not possible. Who has introduced these things, that women
cannot have chanting? If they become agitated, then let the brahmacaris go to
the forest, I have never introduced these things. If the brahmacaris cannot
remain in the presence of women in the temple, then they must go to the forest
for not seeing any women, if they become so easily agitated, but then no one
will either see them and how our preaching work will go on?" (Letter to
Ekayani, 1972)
* In a morning walk in Nairobi in 1975, the same quesiton came up. Being told
that sometiems devotees leave the temple room to chant japa elsewhere, Srila
Prabhupada repleid: "Why shoudl they walk other places? Who says that you go or
walk other places? Who has allowed him to go outside? There is no need. That is
the chance of falling down. Why you should go outside? That shoudl be stopped!
They cannot go outside"
(MY TWO CENTS: , Prabhupada expected the temple room was a very pleasant place,
free from pressure and was transcendental. Sometimes they are, sometimes they
aren't. In any case, that is why I feel he responded like this. That the temple
is Vaikuntha, so who would want to leave Vaikuntha except to look for maya or
materialism and sense gratification. Actually, that is the way our temples
should be run; like Vaikuntha's. Then devotees will be brreaking down our doors
to come, and we will no longer be understaffed.)
Later in the same conversation, the same devotee further explained: "What I
mean to say is taht he says he does not want to chant with the women in the
temple room. I have seen this before. He says: "I do not want to chant in a
room with women. I'd rather be away from women." Srila Prabhupada answered:
"That means he has got distinction between men and women. He is not a pandita.
Pandita sama darsinah. He is a fool. That's all. He should always consider,
"there is a woman, that's alright. She is my mother." That's all. Matravat para
daresu. Suppose you sit down with your mother and chant. What is the wrong? But
if he is not so strong, then he should go to the forest. Why should he live in
Nairobi city? On the streets there are so many women. He'll walk on the streets
closing his eyes? This is all rascaldom. They are rascals. They are not
devotees. Simply rascals. (Walk conversation 10/30.75)
EQUALITY AND EQUAL TREATMENT
Often pushed by his male disciples to minimize ISKCON women spiritual position,
Srila Prabhupada reacted for example in the following way:
* Srila Prabhupada: '"You dance, she dances. You sing, she sings, you cook, she
cooks, there is no difference. You are the same in Krishna's eyes."
* While during a darshan Srila Prabhupada had a brahmacari distribute a little
prasad to everyone present, the boy gave prasad to all the men and sat down.
Srila Prabhupada noticed that he did not serve the only two girls pesent and
said: "Give them also prasad, why don't you serve them?"
By Jyotirmaya d d
YS,
Prtha dd
Parijata2
Jyotirmayi's Reprot:
WOMEN'S ADVANCEMENT
* For a long period of time, women in ISKCON have been considered unfit for
real spiritual advancement. Thier only hope was to become men in their next
life and start spiritual life from that point.
* "regarding your question, yes woman can certainly reach the perfectional
stage of devotion to Krishna." (letter to Krishna Devi, 1969)
* Srila Prabhupada said about Yamuna in the early 70's that she had reached the
stage of bhava.
* "In the Bhagavad-gita we find that women are also equally competent like the
men in the matter of Krishna consciousness movement." (letter to Himavati,
1969)
* We are Vaishnava's. We are not concerned with male or female position in
life. That is simply bodily concept of life. It is not spiritual. Whether one
is male or female, it does not matter, simply chant Hare Krishna and follow the
four regulative principles and your life will be perfect." (letter to Jennifer,
1975)
* It is not that women should only produce children, but they are meant for
advancing in devotion." (letter to Jayatirtha, 1975)
Thank you Jyotirmayi
YS,
Prtha devi dasi
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
This posting brought to you via the SRV Automoderator v2.0.65 alpha 3/14/98
Parijata2
Jyotirmayi's Report:
WOMEN AS DANGEROUS FOR MEN
Many men in the movement have used various scriptural statements on women's
faults to rebuke and humiliate them, hinder their service and advancement, or
even try to drive them out of the movement.
* When Srila Prabhupada first said in a class that for a man association with a
woman is dangerous because she makes him loose control over his senses, the
male devotees started acting very nastily with the women of that particular
temple. The ladies expressed their pain to Prabhupada who then called in all
the men and said: "I was talking of materialistic women, not of the women of
the movement. These are angels."
* Srila Prabhupada also said in another instance: "When we talk of women, we do
not talk about those of our movement because by associating with these women,
if they are Krishna Conscious, you will be liberated." (Madhavananda)
* A disciple of Swami Narayana said to Srila Prabhupada: "My spiritual master
said to avoid all women and to never go where there are women." Srila
Prabhupada laughed and said: "That is impossible, there are women everywhere."
Then, coming back to the temple and watching two women devotees bow down to
him, he said: "By associating with these women, you will be purified."
(Madhavananda)
* In various occasions, brahmacaris complained to Srila Prabhupada that they
were agitated by the presence of women in the temple, and Srila Prabhupada
replied that if they could not restrain their senses, they should go live alone
in the forest.
* "regarding the disturbacne made by the women devotees, they are also living
beings. They also come to Krishna. So consciously I cannot deny them. If our
male memebers, the brahmacaris and sanyasis, if they becomoe steady in Krishna
Conssciousness, there is not problem. It is the duty of the male members to be
very steady and cautious." (letter to Gargamuni Swami, 1975)
WOMEN'S WELL BEING
For years men were always given the best facilities (as far as living quarters,
chanting japa, sitting places in a van or at festivals, prasad, etc.) while the
women got what was left. But Srila Prabhupada was always concerned that the
women be well protected and taken care of.
* During the Garua Purnima festival in Vrndavana, Yamuna got sick. Srila
Prabhupada had her stay with him until she got better. (Yamuna)
* In 1974, Palika lived in India with Prabhupada, her husband having taken
sanyasa. While she was taking care of Prabhupada in his office, Srila Prabhupad
noticed that her sari had a hole and said, "I am going to buy a sari, your's is
all torn." As she protested, he continued: "Your husband Bhavananda has now
taken sanyasa, therefore I shall give you some money." (Dinatarine)
* Srila Prabhupada was informed that there was no running water in the women's
living quarters in Bombay for a long time, as the plumbing needed repairs.
Srila Prabhupada called in the leaders and said: "You are always talking of big
big things and you do not see that these simple things are being taken care
of."
* Srila Prabhupada wanted that for Sankirtana (chanting in the street), women
stay in the middle to be protected.
Thanks again Jyotirmayi
YS,
Prtha devi dasi
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
This posting brought to you via the SRV Automoderator v2.0.65 alpha 3/14/98