Seduction
Marvin
[And are you now equating Bill's betrayal of Hillary to the love
shared by two gay individuals committed to each other? Why?]
Let's take a closer look at what you're doing:
1) You assert that your love for someone justifies having sex with
him.
2) I point out that this conclusion does not follow logically,
because there are other obvious examples where desire does not
justify sex -- such as Bill and Monica or a pedophile's attraction
to an eight-year old.
3) You then accuse me of calling you promiscuous or a pedophile.
Obviously I didn't call you either. I simply made a valid point,
that one cannot presume permission from feelings.
But it is amazing how consistently I've run into this tactic from
people on your side of the argument. Over in the Unitarian forum
one is ostracized and abused for saying anything that a gay person
might take offense at. Rational discussion becomes impossible
because the idea that homosexual behavior might be a mistake is
considered unspeakable by most of them, because to speak the
thought, even in calm deliberation and discussion, will hurt
someone's feelings. It makes a responsible search for truth rather
difficult.
[No one teaches children to become homosexuals, nor are children
taught to commit homosexual acts.]
Some people may have a genetic trait that increases their odds of
becoming homosexual. But not every practicing homosexual carries
the trait. Nor does everyone who carries the trait become
homosexual. It is reasonable to assume that some acquire the
behavior through learning. It is also reasonable to assume that
some avoid the behavior through learning.
[However, rest assured, as I am told by many straight people who
have experimented with gay sex--the straight one experimenting will
quickly realize that gay sex is not natural to their orientation.]
In some American restaurants, you can pick out a live lobster to be
cooked for your dinner. In China, one can go to a restaurant and
pick out a live rat for dinner in the same way. The aversion you
are feeling is not genetic, but cultural. Over time and repeated
exposure your aversion would reduce. If you raised children in
China, they would not have the same aversion that you do.
Legally instituting same-sex marriages, and celebrating homosexual
relationships as romantic options for our children will, within
three or four generations, radically change behavior in children
growing up in the new cultural context.
[I am told by gay friends who have experimented with heterosexual
sex that while they received some pleasure from the act, they felt
that something was wrong.]
If one identifies as homosexual, part of the identity may be
concluding that one oughtn't have sex with someone of the opposite
sex. However that conclusion is not reinforced in the culture
through taboo, and it is not at the same level as the aversion that
heterosexuals learn regarding homosexual behavior.
[Having a homosexual orientation makes one gay. Exhibiting
homosexual behavior(s) does not.]
And being gay does not make someone homosexual. A person with
feelings of attraction toward men may still love and marry a woman,
have successful sexual relations, and raise children.
[Please do not assume that what is not natural for you is also not
natural for others.]
It is not a personal matter. One can derive, from the fact that our
species reproduces sexually, that a mating of two males implies an
error.
[Because you're fond of someone doesn't mean you have to sleep with
them.]
My point exactly.
[Have you been assuming all along that gay people are simply fond of
each other...]
I suspect that Bill's desire for Monica was also more than mere
fondness. The desire does not justify or sanctify the behavior,
even if it is strong desire.
[Unless the children are homosexual, they won't dream of homosexual
relationships.]
Are you familiar with the McMartin pre-school case? There was a
movie about it a few years back. The case began when something a
child said was mis-interpreted by his parents and reported to
police. The police called in a woman who had investigated other
child abuse cases.
After she spent hours interviewing each child, the children
testified in court to various horrible things that had happened to
them, not only sexual abuse, but also witchcraft and animal
sacrifices. All of the daycare workers, including the elderly woman
who ran the center, were implicated and convicted.
However, on appeal, the videotaped interviews were reviewed. The
tapes showed her persistently encouraging each child to say what she
thought the child was "hiding." The tapes showed the children
saying one thing at the start of the interview, and then being
influenced to say something else by the end, something which the
interviewer always suggested to them. The interviewer was unaware
of what she was doing.
And the children reported the incidents as something they thought
they had really experienced. Subsequent research has shown that
children can acquire false memories through simple suggestion
repeated over time. If children can so easily be lead to remember
something that did not happen, then the influence of culture upon a
child's perception of his or her own experience should not be
underestimated.
If we present same-sex marriages to children as romantically
appealing events, then they will incorporate these images into their
own dreams for their own future.
[Please explain the evidence you have found that suggests that
pedophilia is a viable sexual orientation.]
I don't know what you mean by "viable". Pedophilia is a false
orientation in the same sense that homophila is a false orientation.
Both mislead a person into mating inappropriately. But it is
possible for someone with pedophilic tendencies to avoid molesting
children. According to the DSM, about half of the pedophiles
seeking treatment are married ("non-exclusive" type). Presumably,
if they are in private treatment rather than in jail they have not
molested children.
[I still object to your use of the word handicap (I wonder if you
are using it simply because you know it disturbs me)]
I have better things to do with my time than to disturb you. And I
resent your throwing your feelings around to try to suppress
opinions that are different from your own. I have feelings too. So
knock it off.
[you are judging gay people not as "able" as you in some fundamental
way]
No. I am saying they have a specific disability. A given
homosexual may in fact be more able than I in any number of ways. I
am simply calling the specific disability a handicap.
[Does it indeed make you feel better, more powerful, to assume that
I have a handicap of some sort?]
No. But, just out of curiosity, why would my feelings be any of
your business anyway? The question is whether one has the specific
disability or not. It is not about anyone being better than anyone
else.
Christina Matta
Marvin <m...@cstone.net> wrote in article
<7358ei$75c$1...@Skuzzy.cstone.net>...
> Someone in another newsgroup said ...
And someone in *this* newsgroup said, "Who gives a flying F***?"
Tina (could that someone be me?) M.
Marie Houck
Pedophilia is a false
> orientation in the same sense that homophila is a false orientation.
> Both mislead a person into mating inappropriately.
We, the undersigned have decided to stop routinely responding to Marvin
Edwardsą posts about homosexuality. We want it known that we disagree
with what he has to say, but are choosing to disengage from further
discussion with him for a variety of reasons. At the end of this post is
a brief outline of the history of our exchange with him, and a very brief,
limited position statement; if you would like more information, we
encourage you to check DeJaNews for the volumes written by and in response
to Marvin Edwards over the past months.
If you would like your name added to this message when it is posted,
please notify Marie Houck, indicating how you would like to be identified.
Marie Houck, meh...@netgate.net
Ed B, huma...@mindspring.com
Sean Parker Dennison <spd...@concentric.net>
Theresa, novak...@aol.com (Novakthere)
Kathryn, Kath...@aol.com
Gila, Gila Jones <gila...@home.com>
Tina Matta, <whe...@frontiernet.net>
Karen Allendoerfer, rav...@alumni.princeton.edu
Holli Emore <holli...@mindspring.com>
Dave of G., Dave...@aol.com
Laurie Shows lsh...@vr.net .
Kylinn <kyl...@aol.com>
Cynthia Armistead use...@technomom.com
Laurie Barlow, AIA" <barl...@ix.netcom.com>
Sue Templeton Deschene, Rdes...@recorder.ca
Joe Thomas, Thom...@aol.com
Sarajane Siegfriedt <Saraj...@aol.com>
York Dobyns, ydo...@princeton.edu
Michael James Tino (mjt...@acpub.duke.edu)
Gail Zeigler - <Aa...@aol.com>
Steve Caldwell, srca...@iamerica.net
Susan Walker-O'Brien (LBP...@netcom.com)
SOME HISTORY: by Ed B
The history of this debate harks back to the UUA bulletin board last
June. Marvin posted his usual opinion. Several people pointed out that
his words were hurtful. Marvin's response to that was to post the same
message approximately a dozen times. I then posted a message suggesting
that by doing that he was intentionally trying to cause pain to the BGLT
community. When someone is doing something and they are told it is
causing pain and they continue to do it repeatedly one can only conclude
that their intention is to cause pain. Marvin's response to that was to
post his message again in almost every thread on the bulletin board
regardless of the topic of the thread.
At that point the board moderators began removing his posts on the subject
and suggested this newsgroup would be a more appropriate forum. Marvin
then came here and posted the same message. Since June, he has posted the
same message repeatedly. He has suggested that he has more knowledge of
the feelings of Gay and Lesbian people than we do ourselves. He has
trivialized and pooh-poohed our life experiences. He has suggested that
we are łin error˛ for following our hearts. He continues to post in spite
of many people explaining how hurtful the words are and why they are
hurtful.
WE BELIEVE:
that being GLBT is as normal as being straight, that same sex
relationships are healthy, and that it is important for positive GLBT
images to be part of our childrenąs lives. We want our congregations to
be safe places for all GLBT individuals, and for all same sex couples.
FRiverguy
Dwight Thomas, Friv...@aol.com
Dwight Thomas
New Bedford, Massachusetts
FRiv...@aol.com
W.E. 'Bill' Goodrich, PhD
"Marvin" <m...@cstone.net> writes:
> Someone in another newsgroup said ...
When we recently discussed your choice to disregard common usenet
protocols regarding identification of quotes, you tried to justify
your actions with the comment that the full text and context is
"always available" to the reader via the archive. How do you reconsile
that excuse with your above failure to provide the name or newsgroup
of the poster or even so much as the Subject of the thread?
--
W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD
*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
* CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://www.nyx.net/~bgoodric/ctg.html *
* * *
* Without Aversive * bgoo...@nyx.net bgoo...@filebank.com *
* Behavior Modification * Creative Technology Group *
* or Drugs * PO Box 286 *
* * Englewood, CO 80151-0286 *
*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
Gene Douglas
W.E. 'Bill' Goodrich, PhD wrote in message <36569B...@filebank.com>...
:In article <7358ei$75c$1...@Skuzzy.cstone.net>,
:"Marvin" <m...@cstone.net> writes:
:
:> Someone in another newsgroup said ...
:
:When we recently discussed your choice to disregard common usenet
:protocols regarding identification of quotes, you tried to justify
:your actions with the comment that the full text and context is
:"always available" to the reader via the archive. How do you reconsile
:that excuse with your above failure to provide the name or newsgroup
:of the poster or even so much as the Subject of the thread?
Interesting comment. In another post today, you've alluded to an old
discussion on another NG, saying in effect, that settles it. In fact, you
quite frequently say that if a person wants that information, go to Deja
News. Oh, the word is spelled "reconcile." Just trying to be helpful.
:
:--
:W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD
:
:*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
Misleading commercial advertisement snipped
:*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*