( Just Banter ) Has sikhism gone astray ??
Jack A
not religous by nature but do have a respect for the Guru Granth
Sahib. I have kesh and an uncut beard but do not believe they are
necessary to be a true Sikh. I am also vegetarian by choice. Since the
beginning I have been inspired by Sikhism but really disappointed by
the way its practised. Casteism is rampant. As is drinking and
womanizing. Sikhs have made a name for themselves in these things. All
that goes on in Gurudwaras committees is politics. If you go to Punjab
which is supposed to be the Sikh state, things are even worse. It is
hard to find a single true sikh there. Evvery one has cut their hairs,
they drink , have drugs. I'm not among those who is a leader and can
bring about change. I dont have the energy for those endavours. But
doesnt any one else see things the same way ? There are only shreds
left from the original religion preached by the Gurus. I'm seriously
considering becoming a buddhist. What is the opinion of others on this
board ?
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Amardeep S Chana
news:ce0e3c22.0308...@posting.google.com...
> I am a liberal Sikh. I was raised in a cosmopolitan environment. I am
> not religous by nature but do have a respect for the Guru Granth
> Sahib. I have kesh and an uncut beard but do not believe they are
> necessary to be a true Sikh.
If you espouse only portions of a religion based on what you believe to be
correct then you are essentially portraying yourself as wiser than the
Masters who forged it into existance. In contrast a True Sikh surrenders
his ego to the True Guru.
> I am also vegetarian by choice.
Certainly a good and healthy habit. But it would seem that by not making it
a cardinal rule either way the Gurus did not consider it the same degree of
importance as some other issues. Such as regular contemplation of the True
Name.
> Since the
> beginning I have been inspired by Sikhism but really disappointed by
> the way its practised. Casteism is rampant. As is drinking and
> womanizing. Sikhs have made a name for themselves in these things. All
> that goes on in Gurudwaras committees is politics. If you go to Punjab
> which is supposed to be the Sikh state, things are even worse. It is
> hard to find a single true sikh there. Evvery one has cut their hairs,
> they drink , have drugs. I'm not among those who is a leader and can
> bring about change. I dont have the energy for those endavours. But
> doesnt any one else see things the same way ? There are only shreds
> left from the original religion preached by the Gurus.
According to Guru Nanak, if your own spiritual house was in perfect order
then you would have the knowledge, energy, and ability to effect that
change: Mann Jeete Jag Jeet.
> I'm seriously
> considering becoming a buddhist. What is the opinion of others on this
> board ?
Frankly, if you are contemplating giving up on Sikhism then you might as
well do it. Practicing Sikhism requires a level of commitment that has no
room for that kind of uncertainty. Buddhism seems to be the preferred
religion for those who do not succeed as Sikhs so it might be a good choice.
There are a couple of other major religions that encourage that "save
everyone else's soul" philosophy so don't overlook them.
JR
Serious question: Do you want to switch religions because of what you
see other people of your faith doing or do you want to switch because
you think your faith is lacking in something that the other faith can
provide? IMO, religion is a very personal thing. It seems like you're
only following Sikhism because of your upbringing and you haven't
really seriously looked at the philosophical underpinnings of the
religion.
I'd say to you that many Sikhs see things the way you do in regards to
the general state of Sikh society. Unfortunately, like I've said
before, these types of Sikhs, like you and I, are not active in Sikh
politics, which is largely dominated by semi-literate politicians of
the same kind you find everywhere else in India.
JR
Madhusudan Singh
in soc.religion.sikhism (<ce0e3c22.0308...@posting.google.com>):
On Tuesday 05 August 2003 21:05, Jack A (Inform...@yahoo.com) held forth
in soc.religion.sikhism (<ce0e3c22.0308...@posting.google.com>):
SSA,
I am not sure what is a "liberal" Sikh. On one occasion that I have
seen it used in the past is when my interlocutor meant that he enjoyed an
occasional glass of wine. However, from the disgust you (rightly) express
regarding such habits, it does not appear that you are using it in that
contradictory way :)
Whatever you mean it to be, I share with you the disgust that I feel
at the state of political leadership of Sikhs in Punjab these days. Punjab
is IMO in a state of political, social, economic and moral decline. On that
score, I have no doubt.
However, what does it mean for me ? Not much really. Sikhism is not
a dictatorial religion and it is not my right (or yours) to try to "reform"
these "Sikhs" through hectoring at them. On another count, I believe what
is happening is a good process. If you are from the West coast, you will
understand the following analogy :
whenever a a lot dead junk accumulates in a forest, a wildfire
usually gets rid of it. So, as far I am concerned, these people will not be
recognizable as Sikhs either in this generation or the next. Good riddance.
Not everyone in Punjab is a cut-hair or a drunkard, its just that
they have wisely turned their back on a people who have decided to
self-destruct.
What is of greater import is what you think. You need to ask yourself a few
questions before you make up your mind.
1. Do you derive the strength in your faith from examples around you or do
you have an exclusive (for yourself) personal link with Waheguru (as it
ought to be for a "true" Sikh) unaffected by tribulations around you ?
2. Do you believe that joining Buddhism (or any other religion for that
matter) would solve that internal conflict ? They say that you ought to
examine the stool you are jumping on to before leaving the one you have.
For instance, unlike Sikhism (we are talking of theology, not the current
state of affairs), Buddhism discriminates between the genders. From my
discussions with a Buddhist who often haunts this forum, I have found that
part of the theology seems to depend upon denying certain salient facts
about Indian history (like date of authorship of the Rig Veda etc.).
Further, as a Buddhist, would you get into the trap of who saves whom (in
other words, would you still be able to respect other faiths as well as you
do now. Its a knotty problem that I haven't figured out yet - is tolerance
of intolerance, tolerance ?) ? This is not an indictment of Buddhism, but
just a few healthy initial questions - you can question other prospective
faiths the same way. Speaking of Buddhism, you might want to consult a few
threads of discussion I have had with a character named "Dave" (not his
real name) on this forum. Just search on groups.google.com. There is an
interesting part about the Buddhist view of the Universe in those
discussions.
The character of Sikhism differs from most other religions in that it is a
personal religion (see my webpage -
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~chhabra/sikhism.php). It governs what you ought
to do regarding others and yourself, but does not lay down any broad rules
or laws regarding the society. And through its wise silence on issues
regarding science, it preserves its timelessness (its been amusing to read
the many contortions that the Catholic Church had to undergo regarding the
issue of the nature of the Universe).
The important thing is that you should be a good human being. If changing
religions to a religious community with a greater fraction of people who
respect their religious traditions, makes you feel spiritually better,
charge right ahead :)
WJKK,
WJKF.
Madhusudan Singh
in soc.religion.sikhism (<ce0e3c22.0308...@posting.google.com>):
> I am a liberal Sikh. I was raised in a cosmopolitan environment. I am
SSA,
matter) would solve that *internal* conflict ? They say that you ought to
WJKK,
WJKF.
Iqbal Sadiq
sikh are just anther form of hinduism
"Jack A" <Inform...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ce0e3c22.0308...@posting.google.com...
Madhusudan Singh
held forth in soc.religion.sikhism
(<Fti5b.113$qL6.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
> go for it
> sikh are just anther form of hinduism
>
One would normally be tempted to respond to that by saying that Islam is
another form of devil worship, but what this poster says is unfortunately
true for a large number of "Sikhs" in Punjab and elsewhere.
Dilpreet Buxi
sikh are just anther form of hinduism"
That would be correct when one refers to what is being practised by many,
who call themselves "Sikhs".
However, the tenets laid down by the Gurus reject many practices from
Hinduism. Im not saying Sikhism is better, it just has different practices.
CeeJay
I don't know where you have got this idea of that Sikhism is another form of
Hinduism. I suggest that you need to do bit of reading in history and
religion of Sikhism. Sikhism is certainly not a part of Hinduism, our Ten
Gurus formed this religion not to be a part of Hinduism but be a community
who is practical, moderate, and strong believer in self defence, equality
and generosity in human kind.
I would agree that Sikhism is very fast approaching to the edges of becoming
astray and this is what happens when the leadership of such a great
community is in the hands of people who make their decisions based on poor
intellects.
Our Ten Gurus lead and sacrificed all their lives not to be a part of any
other religion but to form a totally different religion. When you study
history of all different religions and compare them you will find an answer
that Sikhism does stand out in its ideologies, teachings and beliefs. Its
these people who are more focused on imposing fundamentals of the religion
then the purpose of it need to be shaken up and its always the case that
people within your own will be the cause of your demise if you know what I
mean.
Its a sorry saga within our religion now that once we become more
intelligent by studying or what ever other ways our pride leads the way and
yet (Hankaar) is repeatdley is been asked to be shed away in Guru Granth
Sahib and teachings of Ten Gurus. We are too busy to be showing of these
days instead living and following the purpose of the religion and mind you I
believe whatever the respect we have in the world today among other
religions/communities is due to the history of our religion and the great
deeds and unmatched sacrifices of our Ten Gurus and ironically look at us we
carry these great deeds of the past on our shoulders with so much pride that
we loudly shout everyday on stages and recite in our prayers with such a
great acknowledgement. Do you think is there any Sikh today who has got the
gutts to bring forward his kids or himself for the purpose of the religion
and offer them as thanks giving to our great Guru Gobind Singh who gave us
the identity of being a Sikh and sacrificed his kids and everything for us
not that our Guru and religion demands this from us.
If you are a true Sikh do the right thing believe in yourself, teach the
purpose of Sikhism to others whether be other sikhs or people from other
religions and please don't try to be a fundamentalist by imposing that you
can only be a Sikh if you tie a turban and follow the code of rehat meryada
these are there as a code and identity of the religion but teach the purpose
of Sikhism that is follow the path of truth in your life, believe in your
selfness, be independent and self defendent, believe in generousity and
equality to all man kind and lead the path of peace.
There is still a time to save our great religion - change your attittude and
thoughts towards it and there is so much need to be done, its like opening a
can of worms.
Ranjit Singh
"Dilpreet Buxi" <dsb...@weh.rwth-aachen.de> wrote in message
news:bjklv2$k1$1...@nets3.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE...
SPS22
> There is still a time to save our great religion -
Is religion there to save US, or are WE there to save religion? I am
not sure that Sikhism needs saving. I think the seekers need saving.
-Surinder
SPS22
> > sikh are just anther form of hinduism
> >
>
> true for a large number of "Sikhs" in
> Punjab and elsewhere.
Madhusudan,
I am curious about your reasoning. Two questions:
(1) What makes you say that "a large number of "Sikhs"" are practicing
a form of Hinduism? What makes a person a Sikh and what makes them a
Hindu. On what basis would you distinguish that?
(2) And after you have decided on the distinction, why is it
unfortunate?
-Surinder
Madhusudan Singh
> Madhusudan Singh <spammers...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >
>> > sikh are just anther form of hinduism
>> >
>>
>> what this poster says is unfortunately
>> true for a large number of "Sikhs" in
>> Punjab and elsewhere.
>
SSA,
> Madhusudan,
>
> I am curious about your reasoning. Two questions:
>
> (1) What makes you say that "a large number of "Sikhs"" are practicing
> a form of Hinduism? What makes a person a Sikh and what makes them a
> Hindu. On what basis would you distinguish that?
Well, it would obviously depend upon your opinion of the matter, but to
me, treating a Sikh woman as a second class citizen (as was the case in
medieval (not ancient) Indian society before Sikhism came into being),
cutting off one's hair (the 5 K's were gifted to Sikhs to make them stand
out from the big mass of the largely Hindu, Indian society, as well as
honour the Creator who endowed us with those), the caste system (which shamefully
comes into full operation whenever inter-"caste" marriages are the issue,
and is a uniquely Hindu institution), etc., make me think that there are a large
number of nominal "Sikhs" in our midst, who behave like Hindus to all
intents and purposes.
YMMV.
>
> (2) And after you have decided on the distinction, why is it
> unfortunate?
Gives a bad name to a lot of us. I have lost count of number of non-Sikhs
who have expressed incredulity when I turn down an alcoholic drink,
claiming a religious sanction against it, or refused to consider every
passing female as a sort of subhuman being, worthy of lewd comment, or ask
for my last name after I have finished telling them it is "Singh".
What they do in their personal or public life is of course of no concern to me. Its
just the mess such people leave for a lot of us that I do not take kindly to.
WJKK,
WJKF.
Brijender Singh
1-Who is a Sikh ?
2-Who is a Khalsa Sikh, and how different from Sikh ?
3-Assuming a Sikh is a follower of the path set by the 10 Gurus and is a
sudent
of Guru Granth, but is not a Khalsa-Sikh as was
created/defined/decorated
on 1st Baisakhi, how is this Sikh different from any other non-Khalsa ?
4-Is a Hindu defined as an inhabitant of Indian subcontinent who does not
practice a recognized religion (i.e. Jain, Budhist, Muslim, etc.) ?
While the above are seemingly naive questions, I ask to help calrify my own
thinking and to help explain Sikhi and Khalsa-Sikhi to my offsprings.
Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh.
Brijender Singh
brijend...@peoplepc.com
"Madhusudan Singh" <spammers...@nowhere.now> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.09.23....@nowhere.now...
Roopkaran Singh
raj karega khalsa
"Iqbal Sadiq" <i.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Fti5b.113$qL6.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...