What "Shiva" means in the shabad " Deh Shiva Bar Mohe ehe, Shub karman te kaboh na daru"
J.S.Sahambi
I would like to know what does the word "Shiva" mean (or to whome it
refers) in the following shabad by Guru Gobind singh ji
"Deh Shiva bar mohe ehe, Shub karman te kabon na darun......"
With regards
Sahambi
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Amardeep S Chana
news:da6c7921.03010...@posting.google.com...
> Wahe guru ji ka khalsa, Wahe guru ji ke phate.
>
> I would like to know what does the word "Shiva" mean (or to whome it
> refers) in the following shabad by Guru Gobind singh ji
>
> "Deh Shiva bar mohe ehe, Shub karman te kabon na darun......"
> With regards
> Sahambi
>
Originally Shiva is the name of the Hindu deity which represents the
destroyer of things.
In the context of that Shabd, however, Shiva refers to one of the three
facets of the Primal Being (Ong). Ong is the Creator, the Sustainer, and
the Destroyer. Shiva allegorically represents the Destroyer aspect in this
case.
The above words are from a battle hymn where the Tenth Master asks Ong for
the blessing to: never fear the consequences to perform righteous actions,
never fear the enemy in battle, to secure his victory in battle, to destroy
his ego and temptations, and to help him gladly accept the summons to his
ending time when it comes.
Parry
donot attribute this shabad, portraying the poet as unashamedly
eulogising lord shiva, to GGobind Singh. big brother is watching.
Shiva/shubh/karman all these terms branded 'unSikh' by Ambarsar
Qazis. remember only one mantra now
Hum Hindu Nahin (and never were).
PS btw there was only one shiva when the news last trickled in.
jsah...@iitg.ernet.in (J.S.Sahambi) wrote in message news:<da6c7921.03010...@posting.google.com>...
JR
There is sufficient doubt that all the compositions in the Dasam
Granth were actually written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. If you accept
that everything in the Dasam Granth was written by Guru Gobind Singh
ji, then you will have to accept that Guru Gobind Singh's philosophy
is totally contradictory to the currently accepted Sikh philosophy.
Let's take another shabad "Main hun param purakh ko daasa...." One
verse in it goes "Jo moko parmesar keh he woh sab narak kund me jai
hai." Now, I don't remember any reference to swarag or narak in sikh
philosophy, so what is this about? In the shabad you mention, you can
try to twist it any way you want but the Shiva being referred to is
the same Shiva who resides on Kailash parbat, i.e., the one of the
Hindu Tri-murti. This shabad became very famous due to the film "Nanak
Naam Jahaz Hai." Who knows if Guru Gobind Singh ji actually wrote it
or not.
All that being said, the best course is to stick to the verified
command that Guru Gobind Singh himself issued "Guru manyo Granth." If
he wanted his writings to be followed, he would have included that in
his command.
JR
SPS22
>
> There is sufficient doubt that all the compositions in the Dasam
> Granth were actually written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. If you accept
> that everything in the Dasam Granth was written by Guru Gobind Singh
> ji, then you will have to accept that Guru Gobind Singh's philosophy
> is totally contradictory to the currently accepted Sikh philosophy.
While it is true that one could make some arguments about the
authenticity of the Dasham Granth, the motivation for most Sikhs is to
question it when what is there in the Dasham Granth does not match
their own sensibilites. Apart for "Shiva" use which bothers Sikhs,
explicitly sexual stories of Triya Charitra (Women's personality) to
his troops are similarly questioned.
But leaving aside the contradictions of Dasham Granth, there are many
seeming contradicitons in the Guru Granth Sahib too. There are
references to Shiva there.
> "Jo moko parmesar keh he woh sab narak kund me jai
> hai." Now, I don't remember any reference to swarag
> or narak in sikh philosophy, so what is this about?
This also contradicts the idea Guru Granth Sahib Ji equating Guru with
God:
"Gur Jaisa nahin ko Deva". There are many such examples.
Thanks.
-Surinder Singh
Kawaldeep Grewal
jro...@hotmail.com (JR) wrote:
: All that being said, the best course is to stick to the verified
: command that Guru Gobind Singh himself issued "Guru manyo Granth."
where did he write this? You use quotation marks, what is the
source?
thanks,
Kawaldeep
if you desire to correspond via email, please replace berzerkeley with berkeley
Parry
fairly balanced advice JR
but there is one paradox here
u r asking him to follow Granth but is it written in the Granth to
adopt five Ks? or the hukam to not consume intoxicants?
just curious where these directions have been recorded and by whom?
and where did he write to follow the Granth?
JR
> In article <93cbe3d1.03011...@posting.google.com>,
> jro...@hotmail.com (JR) wrote:
>
> : All that being said, the best course is to stick to the verified
> : command that Guru Gobind Singh himself issued "Guru manyo Granth."
>
> where did he write this? You use quotation marks, what is the
> source?
The quotation marks are meant to signify that these are not my words.
I should have been clearer. In this case, the words are from the Ardas
used in most Gurudwaras. I did not mean to imply that Guru Gobind
Singh ji literally said "Guru Manyo Granth." What I did mean to say
was that it is generally accepted as being verified that Guru Gobind
Singh ji directed his followers to consider the Granth Sahib the Guru
after him.
JR
JR
Of course there's nothing in the Granth about the five Ks. But there
are some verses in it against using intoxicants. So, IMO, it's a
matter of your interpretation. Sikhs are not supposed to rely on some
Pope to determine what the scripture means. It's up to each individual
to interpret it. As to the five K's, those are symbols of the Khalsa.
It is clear that Guru Gobind Singh ji created the Khalsa. It's not
clear, at least to me, that he directed all Sikhs to be Khalsa,
though. Some of his closest contemporary followers remained
non-Khalsa. However, it's also clear that he ordered that the Sikhs
should consider Granth Sahib the Guru after him. The Khalsa
requirements are part of the Rehatnamas, which were drawn up based on
the tenth Guru's teachings as well as the Granth Sahib. The Rehatnamas
are at a lower level than Guru Granth Sahib because they are primarily
based on interpretations, not necessarily on direct commands from the
Gurus. Of course the currently used "Guru Manyo Granth" is also from
the Rehatnama, so it's all very convoluted. So, what you want to
accept is up to you. Of course, the guys sitting in the Akal Takht may
decide to excommunicate you based on whatever they consider to be the
correct interpretation.
>
> just curious where these directions have been recorded and by whom?
AFAIK, the five K's directions are recorded (earliest) in a Rehatnama
by Bhai Chaupa Singh, a contemporary of the tenth Guru. The other
anti-intoxicant directions are part of the currently accepted
Rehatnama. Again, as I said, Rehatnama is supposed to be someone's
interpretation of how a Sikh is supposed to live, so you can draw your
own conclusion.
> and where did he write to follow the Granth?
>
He did not himself. This is again recorded by his contemporary
followers. The earliest verified "written" directions to follow the
Granth are from the Rehatnama of Guru Gobind Singh's contemporary
follower Bhai Nand Lal.
JR
Kawaldeep Grewal
jro...@hotmail.com (JR) wrote:
: In this case, the words are from the Ardas
: used in most Gurudwaras. I did not mean to imply that Guru Gobind
: Singh ji literally said "Guru Manyo Granth." What I did mean to say
: was that it is generally accepted as being verified that Guru
: Gobind Singh ji directed his followers to consider the Granth Sahib the
: Guru after him.
I agree with the statement, but it should be noted that the
dhohera of which you speak was written in contemporary times, and
has been re-written a few times to suit the zeitgeist.
Kawaldeep
if you desire to correspond via email, please replace berzerkeley with berkeley
JR
> In article <93cbe3d1.03012...@posting.google.com>,
> jro...@hotmail.com (JR) wrote:
>
> : In this case, the words are from the Ardas
> : used in most Gurudwaras. I did not mean to imply that Guru Gobind
> : Singh ji literally said "Guru Manyo Granth." What I did mean to say
> : was that it is generally accepted as being verified that Guru
> : Gobind Singh ji directed his followers to consider the Granth Sahib the
> : Guru after him.
>
> I agree with the statement, but it should be noted that the
> dhohera of which you speak was written in contemporary times, and
> has been re-written a few times to suit the zeitgeist.
Very true.
JR
Parry
meaning of "shiva" in a shabad
Shiva, I m now told, means Bhagoti (Bhagwati) and not Shiv himself.
GGS was addressing Shiva who, to a layman like me, appeaars to be as
in Mrs. Shiv or female 'roop' of Shiv.
would any1 like to elaborate on this thanx?