Helsa fellow Runesters!
Madstar
I post this now that I am seeking the input and hopefully
freindship of fellow rune casters. I will also except non rune casters
all are welcone to chat with me. :)
So i supose the first question is...... Dose anyone here know what
runes are? more prcie the elder or younger Futhark/ Futhork? If so
please post or send me mail. If not I will return and rambel on about
runes till someone get interested! :)
RTR
Sara
Ulftonn
Lorrie Wood
In article <Pine.HPP.3.96.97092...@stutz.iupui.edu>,
Madstar <sh...@iupui.edu> wrote:
>
> I post this now that I am seeking the input and hopefully
>freindship of fellow rune casters. I will also except non rune casters
>all are welcone to chat with me. :)
Welcome!
> So i supose the first question is...... Dose anyone here know what
>runes are? more prcie the elder or younger Futhark/ Futhork? If so
>please post or send me mail. If not I will return and rambel on about
>runes till someone get interested! :)
Sure, you used to use them to write things like SVEN WUZ HERE
on rocks before it was time to get back on the longboat, to the confusion
of latter-day Minnesotans.
Nowadays, they get used for all manner of divination and magickal
stuff. I have no knowledge of whether they were used for these back
in Ye Olde Daze [tm], although the Poetic Edda makes references to
so and so saying, 'I know a rune for thus-and-so!' where thus-and-so
is really spectacular... I haven't done the research to correlate them.
Any Asatruar on the group is bound to stick their head up and say something,
though.
I'm not sure if you're askign from the position of the ignorant
wishing teaching, or the well-schooled trolling the waters for students
and lively debate. So, I'll stop here, although I enjoy both!
-- Lorrie
--
<*> -- Lorrie Wood -- <*> -- lor...@pennmush.tinymush.org -- <*>
I believe in everything; nothing is sacred.
I believe in nothing; everything is sacred.
-- Tom Robbins, _Even_Cowgirls_Get_the-Blues_
Manny Olds
Lorrie Wood (lor...@araw.mede.uic.edu) wrote:
> Nowadays, they get used for all manner of divination and magickal
> stuff. I have no knowledge of whether they were used for these back
> in Ye Olde Daze [tm], although the Poetic Edda makes references to
> so and so saying, 'I know a rune for thus-and-so!' where thus-and-so
> is really spectacular... I haven't done the research to correlate them.
> Any Asatruar on the group is bound to stick their head up and say something,
> though.
There is an excellent web page at
<http://pages.icacomp.com/~runesmith/runes/runes.html>.
Manny Olds <old...@clark.net> of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
Hail the Aesir! Hail the Vanir! All others pay cash.
Craig Perry
Madstar wrote:
>
> I post this now that I am seeking the input and hopefully
> freindship of fellow rune casters. I will also except non rune casters
> all are welcone to chat with me. :)
>
> runes are? more prcie the elder or younger Futhark/ Futhork? If so
> please post or send me mail. If not I will return and rambel on about
> runes till someone get interested! :)
>
> Sara
I am a Bard and hence my initiation are of Celtic lineage rather than
Norse or Teutonic per se and I'm afraid that my runis experience is
limited to about three systems, some bind rune technology, sub elemental
correspondence and enchanting in the 24/25 rune set and enchanting
electromagnetic ley lines with the mongrels. My divination is limited to
Ralph Blum's simplistic little work although I have devised some systems
of my own. If I can be of help either as a subject for conversation or
ridicule I am contactable on
gri...@ozemail.com.au
Truth, Feeling and Life
Griann
Madstar
There are two things that you will find don't mix well in
established Runic groups. Blum and Runes. Most of my dealings with
masters and fellows is that they all agree that Blum is a quack. I maen
that in a kind way.
I too started with a set of Blums beautifull ceramic runes. I
still use the set today. I sipmly tossed out the blank one. To warn
those getting started. There is no blank rune! It was simply a ploy Blum
thought up so that he could sell his books and sets.
But that really isn't why he's not excepted. He bantently has
shown disrespect to the runes and their purpose. He even ADMITS TO
WASHING THE TRUE DEFINITIONS OF THE RUNS IN HIS PAINTS AND DISTROYING
THEM. Then he sits and totaly rearanges the Futhark into something
incoherint and by doing so, distroyes the balance the Futhark represents.
Blum also attacked the Rune Gild many times, because we refuse to
sell his books as teaching items.
Blums okay for the beginner just dabbling, who isn't that serious.
But for those who wish to become true users and welders of runic power
stick to books by Donald Tyson and Edred Thorsson. Most books on the
runes don't deal with a blank rune anyway, but those that do should be
taken very carefully so as not to poison ther true system you are trying
to learn.
RTR
Sara
Madstar
I have studied Runes for about eight years now and I can't
remember ever reading of a blank rune ever being found. And I have
studied the Historical aspects of the runes as well.
I'm not saying your wrong, just that I have never encountered it.
If you could tell where you read or saw this I would love to know. I will
post the question to my Gild ans then post the answere here when
(and If) i get it.
But this is good, If the rune helps you then please use it. I
only wished to inform you that it was a Non-Rune and was not recognised by
many Runic groups.
I only wonder if anyone else has anything to add?
And please contiue to wright back Robin :)
RTR
sara
Robin Reyburn
Madstar wrote:
... I sipmly tossed out the blank one. To warn
> those getting started. There is no blank rune! It was simply a ploy Blum
>
> Sara
Odd, since I seem to recall blank rune staves being found in digs in
Europe. Now, if you mean a blank rune as FAte or Wyrd or whatever, I
can concur-no such animal. However, a blank rune (stave or disk)is a
very useful placemarker for those who truly cast(as in throw, not draw)
the runes. Makes a good starting point for reading the cast. YMMV.
BB Robin
--
"There's a Time and a Place for everything...and this is neither!"
Lew Stead
> Odd, since I seem to recall blank rune staves being found in digs in
> Europe. Now, if you mean a blank rune as FAte or Wyrd or whatever, I
> can concur-no such animal. However, a blank rune (stave or disk)is a
> very useful placemarker for those who truly cast(as in throw, not draw)
> the runes. Makes a good starting point for reading the cast. YMMV.
That's astounding news, since to my knowledge sets of runes have never been
found and our entire knowledge of them is from Roman accounts of the
ancient Germanics diving with slips of wood, which are presumed to be
runes.
Runestones yes, sets of chunks of wood each with a rune on them in a 10th
century baggie, nope.
Citation please?
Lew
--
!------------------------------------------------------------------------!
! Lewis Stead -=- lst...@webcom.com -=- Go DC United! !
! The Rodent Homepage: http://www.webcom.com/lstead/rodents/rodents.html !
! Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libt me videre? !
!------------------------------------------------------------------------!
Denise Griffith
In article <Pine.HPP.3.96.970930...@stutz.iupui.edu>,
Madstar <sh...@iupui.edu> wrote:
<snipped>
> Blums okay for the beginner just dabbling, who isn't that serious.
> But for those who wish to become true users and welders of runic power
> stick to books by Donald Tyson and Edred Thorsson. Most books on the
> runes don't deal with a blank rune anyway, but those that do should be
> taken very carefully so as not to poison ther true system you are trying
> to learn.
>
> RTR
> Sara
I started out with Blum, also. Read the introduction, tossed the book
aside, and went back to get others. I was offended that he admitted not
even trying to research the tool before using it. Picked up Freya Aswynn,
simply because the store was out of Thorsson's books, and the other's
looked, well, flackey (LEARN RUNES IN 20 MINUTES). Aswynn credits Pertho
with the associations that Blum gives to the blank rune.
Denise
Ulftonn
>> Blums okay for the beginner just dabbling, who isn't that serious.
>> But for those who wish to become true users and welders of runic power
>> stick to books by Donald Tyson and Edred Thorsson. Most books on the
>> runes don't deal with a blank rune anyway, but those that do should be
>> taken very carefully so as not to poison ther true system you are trying
>> to learn.
>>
>> RTR
>> Sara
>
>I started out with Blum, also. Read the introduction, tossed the book
>aside, and went back to get others. I was offended that he admitted not
>even trying to research the tool before using it. Picked up Freya Aswynn,
>simply because the store was out of Thorsson's books, and the other's
>looked, well, flackey (LEARN RUNES IN 20 MINUTES). Aswynn credits Pertho
>with the associations that Blum gives to the blank rune.
>
>Denise
>
>
Personaly I have found Teutonic magic to have one of the best systems of
reserched runes and uses of runes its by Kveldulf Gundarsson and published by
Llewellyn
As for historical use of the runes the Lay of Loddafafnir show the use of runes
as well as several mentions of Volva's in the sagas .
Volva was a female seeress seeminly connected to Freya (she had cat skin gloves
on) who castes the runes for important people in the sagas.
We also find the runes used in every day life in a recent dig in Kiev in the
old norse township a stick was found in a ale house with the runes carved into
it saying " Hafdan Olga says come home" there is also a banister in Istambul
in the Santa Helga Sofia(sp) chruch that seems to be the name halfdane and
something else (yes our ancesters had vandals even then)
ulf...@aol.com
Lee Ann Rabe
>> I post this now that I am seeking the input and hopefully
>> freindship of fellow rune casters. I will also except non rune casters
>> all are welcone to chat with me. :)
>>
>> So i supose the first question is...... Dose anyone here know what
>> runes are? more prcie the elder or younger Futhark/ Futhork? If so
>> please post or send me mail. If not I will return and rambel on about
>> runes till someone get interested! :)
>>
>> RTR
>> Sara
Hello, yourself. :-) I'd hardly classify myself as a "runester", but I
am interested in, and occasionally study, the runes. I only work with
the Elder Futhark, and, like I said, am pretty much a beginner.
Lee Ann
P.S. What does RTR mean? Am I missing something because it's too early
here? *grin*
Telsa Gwynne
In article <dkgriffi-011...@anes218.anesthesia.wisc.edu>,
Denise Griffith <dkgr...@facstaff.wisc.edu> wrote:
>In article <Pine.HPP.3.96.970930...@stutz.iupui.edu>,
>Picked up Freya Aswynn,
>simply because the store was out of Thorsson's books, and the other's
>looked, well, flackey (LEARN RUNES IN 20 MINUTES).
I know the saying about not judging books by their covers, but this
was my introduction to Thorsson:
You know how the cover of "Leaves of Yggdrasil" has runes around the edge
of the front cover picture? (Well, it does in my copy.) A quote from
Havamal, IIRC.
Well, I saw another book, "Northern Magic" by Thorsson, with runes
around the outside in some shop, and I stopped to read what they said.
I wish I knew whether the author had told the artist to do it or whether
the artist was feeling humorous.
They said, "These runes don't mean anything, but they sure look
impressive"...
I giggled so much that everyone turned round and stared, and I had
to buy the book just to take it away and giggle some more.
Telsa
--
____ Wanted: four-line or less ascii penguin. Good home and
<' >< fresh ascii fish provided.
---' Telsa Gwynne - hob...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk
Anthony Hilbert
Telsa Gwynne writes
>Well, I saw another book, "Northern Magic" by Thorsson, with runes
>around the outside in some shop, and I stopped to read what they said.
>
>I wish I knew whether the author had told the artist to do it or whether
>the artist was feeling humorous.
>
>They said, "These runes don't mean anything, but they sure look
>impressive"...
I used to have a shield with the runes for SNAFU carved on it. I told
people it was the Curse of Chaos.
I know a Viking group who have a take-down hut for shows. It has a
little board over the door with the runic inscription MIN THIN HEFA.
You guessed... Old Norse for "mind your head". We tell people it's a
charm to avert disasters. Works, too.
--
Anthony Hilbert
"No-one should write runes who can't read them" - Egil Skalagrimson
Anthony Hilbert
Robin Reyburn <"rob...@earthlink.net"@italy-c.it.earthlink.net> writes
>
>Odd, since I seem to recall blank rune staves being found in digs in
>Europe.
Reference? I hadn't heard of rune staves, in the sense of divinatory
sets of any kind, having been found anywhere. All the rune staves I
have ever heard of are whole inscriptions (magical or mundane), not
individual runes.
> Now, if you mean a blank rune as FAte or Wyrd or whatever, I
>can concur-no such animal.
The only solid references I know for the meanings of the runes are the
Norse and Saxon "rune-rhymes" which give the meanings of the names, and
none of them contain any hint that there might be another "blank sign".
--
Anthony Hilbert
"I don't much mind where -"
"Then it doen't much matter which way you go."
"So long as I get =somewhere=," said Alice, trying to make it clear.
"Oh, you're sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough."
Raven (J. Singleton)
Anthony Hilbert (hil...@hilbert.demon.co.uk) wrote:
| The only solid references I know for the meanings of the runes are the
| Norse and Saxon "rune-rhymes" which give the meanings of the names, and
| none of them contain any hint that there might be another "blank sign".
I concur. The "Old English Rune Poem" covers the Futhark plus the ancillary
runes used for Anglo-Saxon, one stanza of four lines for each rune, but there
is no stanza for "blank"... unless there's an implied "blank stanza" at the
end, after the last stanza with actual words. <grin>
Example: the first rune, the "F" of "Futhark", is Feoh, meaning literally
cattle and by extension wealth. "Feoh byth frofur fyra gehwylcum..." =
"Wealth is a benefit to all mankind...".
What the empty space would be named, what the name would mean, and what the
verse for it would say, seem reasonable but unanswered questions.
The old Futhark has 24 (non-blank) runes, grouped in three "eights" (aitts).
A "blank rune" would make 25, and make one of the "eights" into a "nine".
Which of the three "eights" would have its symmetry thus disrupted?
Note: although the number of runes used in different regions varies from
24 (Germanic) to 16 (Norwegian) to 28 (Anglo-Saxon), the sequence of those
runes is noticeably similar: the name "Futhark" indicates the first six
of the Germanic 24 (F, U, Th, A, R, K), but these also start the Anglo-Saxon
28 (which adds 4 to the end of the Futhark), and the Norwegian 16 follow
much the same order, allowing for the omitted runes.
Blum's rune sequence, on the other hand, is completely unlike anything
previously recorded -- but he very briefly mentions how he derived his
sequence: by drawing the runes at random from a bag. He didn't have a
chart of the old runic sequences handy, and didn't bother to find one.
-- Raven <ra...@solaria.sol.net>. I forward scam-spam email/posts to:
frau...@psinet.com enfor...@sec.gov net-...@nocs.insp.irs.gov
pyr...@ftc.gov cust...@email.usps.gov oig...@email.usps.gov
DJ Higgins
Or even....Odin forbid....D. Jason Cooper
--
"Sometimes lawyers take themselves seriously."
-Christa Christensen
Daniel W. Butler-Ehle
Raven (J. Singleton) (ra...@solaria.sol.net) wrote:
: Anthony Hilbert (hil...@hilbert.demon.co.uk) wrote:
:
: | The only solid references I know for the meanings of the runes are the
: | Norse and Saxon "rune-rhymes" which give the meanings of the names, and
: | none of them contain any hint that there might be another "blank sign".
:
: I concur. The "Old English Rune Poem" covers the Futhark plus the ancillary
: runes used for Anglo-Saxon, one stanza of four lines for each rune, but there
: is no stanza for "blank"... unless there's an implied "blank stanza" at the
: end, after the last stanza with actual words. <grin>
So is there evidence that these rhymes actually indicate meanings?
Does the musical note "Do" actually mean "a female deer"? Well surely
it must because someone made a children's rhyme about it. Therefore
magical, right? Rune names may just be nicknames, not magical
power words. Like "Alpha", "Bravo", "Charlie", etc.
"Ah, I see you selected 'N', 'V', 'T', 'H', & 'C'. Those are powerful
letters. They indicate that you will do a Navaho victory tango in a
hotel with Charlie."
: Example: the first rune, the "F" of "Futhark", is Feoh, meaning literally
: cattle and by extension wealth. "Feoh byth frofur fyra gehwylcum..." =
: "Wealth is a benefit to all mankind...".
"Re" = "a drop of golden Sun". Or, by extension, I can put a synthesizer
under my pillow playing "Re" all night long and wake up with a tan.
: The old Futhark has 24 (non-blank) runes, grouped in three "eights" (aitts).
: A "blank rune" would make 25, and make one of the "eights" into a "nine".
: Which of the three "eights" would have its symmetry thus disrupted?
Isn't that grouping a modern invention by numerology-minded runecasters?
: Note: although the number of runes used in different regions varies from
: 24 (Germanic) to 16 (Norwegian) to 28 (Anglo-Saxon), the sequence of those
: runes is noticeably similar: the name "Futhark" indicates the first six
: of the Germanic 24 (F, U, Th, A, R, K), but these also start the Anglo-Saxon
: 28 (which adds 4 to the end of the Futhark),
The Anglo-Saxon rune rows are more commonly referred to as "Futhorc"s
because of the significant changes in sounds and symbols. And they
had up to 31 distinct characters. When some of the phonetic values
changed, the runes' nicknames were also changed to preserve the
convention of the nickname beginning with the rune sound.
: and the Norwegian 16 follow
: much the same order, allowing for the omitted runes.
The Danish Younger Futhark was mostly similar to the 24-rune Elder
Futhark, except that the number of runes had dwindled to
approximately 16 and there were some vowel shifts. The other
~16-rune Younger Futhark, the Swedo-Norwegian "short twig" futhark,
had many very different runes that did not appear in the Elder Futhark;
this was the one used throughout most of the Viking Age and you've
probably never even seen it.
There is frequent variation of rune order in surviving Futharks.
However, the earliest Futharks date only back to around 700ce. And
there was variation on the number of runes. The Elder Futhark had 24
give or take depending on where you were from. And the appearance of
the runes and their phonetic values also varied. Some runes of the
Elder Futhark represented completely different consonants a few miles
away in the same time period.
And the ones that Thorssen and Blum use aren't necessarily the
predominant ones. They just happen to be the ones that there is the
most documentation on from Christian monks. Modern runecasting
authors (often just rewriting Thorssen's work) simplify runes to the
point of being wholy inaccurate historically. So they might as well
include a blank one if they want it.
D.
Raven (J. Singleton)
Daniel W. Butler-Ehle (dwbu...@mtu.edu) wrote:
|Raven (J. Singleton) (ra...@solaria.sol.net) wrote:
|:Anthony Hilbert (hil...@hilbert.demon.co.uk) wrote:
|:| The only solid references I know for the meanings of the runes are the
|:| Norse and Saxon "rune-rhymes" which give the meanings of the names, and
|:| none of them contain any hint that there might be another "blank sign".
|:
|:I concur. The "Old English Rune Poem" covers the Futhark plus the ancillary
|:runes used for Anglo-Saxon, one stanza of four lines for each rune, but there
|:is no stanza for "blank"... unless there's an implied "blank stanza" at the
|:end, after the last stanza with actual words. <grin>
|
| So is there evidence that these rhymes actually indicate meanings?
The rune-poems are *based upon* the meanings, that is, they are rhymes on the
*subjects* of the words which are the names of the runes. Please read them.
|:Example: the first rune, the "F" of "Futhark", is Feoh, meaning literally
|:cattle and by extension wealth. "Feoh byth frofur fyra gehwylcum..." =
|:"Wealth is a benefit to all mankind...".
|
| Does the musical note "Do" actually mean "a female deer"? Well surely
| it must because someone made a children's rhyme about it.
I'll discuss the origin of Do-Re-Mi below.
| Therefore magical, right?
I made no claim about "magical". You appear to be reading into my text
statements I never made.
| Rune names may just be nicknames, not magical power words.
Again, I said nothing about "magical power". You're fighting a straw man.
| Like "Alpha", "Bravo", "Charlie", etc.
Not far off, actually. The use of "pure letter names", like "Ee" for E,
doesn't seem to have been the original practice. Rather, letters were named
after common objects whose words began with that sound. Not quite "Alpha
Bravo Charlie", but more like the primer "A is for Apple" -- and then drop
the "A is for", calling the letter itself "Apple". In some cases, the letter
SHAPE clearly portrays the object named. The rune Thorn looks like a basic
drawing of a thorn, jutting out from a stem. Visual and auditory mnemonics!
I find it very suggestive that the first rune means "cattle", because the
first letter in the Hebrew alphabet, Aleph, means "ox", a kind of "cattle".
(The second Hebrew letter, Beth, means "house", so the parallel breaks down,
but the use of object-names as letter-names is still a shared feature.)
| "Re" = "a drop of golden Sun". Or, by extension, I can put a synthesizer
| under my pillow playing "Re" all night long and wake up with a tan.
The Do-Re-Mi system of note-names goes back to the Middle Ages, to monastic
chants, and specifically to a Gregorian chant whose phrases ascend note by
note up the scale. The first syllable of each phrase became the name of the
corresponding note: "Domine..." (Latin for "Lord...") gave us "Do", etc.
So, yes, actually, there *was* originally a word with meaning behind each
note-name. The abbreviated single-syllable names were mnemonic "hooks",
and the "Doe, a deer" song is based on the happenstance that most of those
monosyllables sound like English words -- except poor "La".
|:The old Futhark has 24 (non-blank) runes, grouped in three "eights" (aitts).
|:A "blank rune" would make 25, and make one of the "eights" into a "nine".
|:Which of the three "eights" would have its symmetry thus disrupted?
|
| Isn't that grouping a modern invention by numerology-minded runecasters?
Point is, the "blank rune" is such "a modern invention by... [a] runecaster".
|:Note: although the number of runes used in different regions varies from
|:24 (Germanic) to 16 (Norwegian) to 28 (Anglo-Saxon), the sequence of those
|:runes is noticeably similar: the name "Futhark" indicates the first six
|:of the Germanic 24 (F, U, Th, A, R, K), but these also start the Anglo-Saxon
|:28 (which adds 4 to the end of the Futhark),
|
| The Anglo-Saxon rune rows are more commonly referred to as "Futhorc"s
| because of the significant changes in sounds and symbols.
Yet you can see in "Futhark"/"Futhorc" how much remained the same AND in the
same order, to the degree that you can say the "A" *becomes* the "O", etc.
| And they had up to 31 distinct characters.
And I didn't even *try* to describe alternate forms of the *same* rune!
That amount of detail (and illustration) would do better on paper than ASCII,
and in a full-fledged article, rather than a brief newsgroup response.
| When some of the phonetic values changed, the runes' nicknames were also
| changed to preserve the convention of the nickname beginning with the rune
| sound.
So you concede that there *was* a convention of names for runes... it's just
that you prefer to call these "nicknames", as if there were some other names
that were the "real names" -- and what would those be?
|:and the Norwegian 16 follow much the same order, allowing for the omitted
|:runes.
|
| The Danish Younger Futhark was mostly similar to the 24-rune Elder Futhark,
| except that the number of runes had dwindled to approximately 16 and there
| were some vowel shifts. The other ~16-rune Younger Futhark, the Swedo-
| Norwegian "short twig" futhark, had many very different runes that did not
| appear in the Elder Futhark;
Here I think you mean that the *shapes* of the runes differed. Again, yes.
| this was the one used throughout most of the Viking Age
| and you've probably never even seen it.
Since I used those runes when illustrating the Fyrdraca (longship) article
for Tournaments Illuminated about 15 years ago, your estimate of probability
is slightly off.
I suppose I could list details you've omitted, and suggest that you left them
out due to ignorance... or I could acknowledge that it's perfectly all right
to just hit the relevant "high points", even though you don't grant me that.
Although I didn't make any claim before about "magical" uses of the runes,
I do find it *suggestive*, not only that some verses have Odin telling of
such magical uses, but that specific runes historically had specific uses.
Egil Skallagrimsson scratches a rune into a drinking horn, miniates it with
his own blood, and the horn bursts asunder -- its drink had been poisoned, and
the rune was against poison. Which rune did he use? Consider the rune Gyfu
("gift"), commonly shaped like an "X". What was traditionally inscribed on
barrels of beer? "XXX". Why?
(I could go on, in the spirit of your "Re" tape-player/suntan-machine, to
note that *gifts* are traditionally given on *X*mas, but you might think that
I'm serious, and then we'd have to start discussing the Greek letter Chi....)
[snip]
| Modern runecasting authors (often just rewriting Thorssen's work) simplify
| runes to the point of being wholy inaccurate historically. So they might
| as well include a blank one if they want it.
The question *was* what's historically authentic. As you say, they aren't.
-- Raven | , "Y Gwir yn erbyn y Byd." (Welsh)
| "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil." (Irish)
raven @ solaria.sol.net | "The Truth against the World."
| -- Bardic Motto
Raven (J. Singleton)
Raven (J. Singleton) (ra...@solaria.sol.net) wrote:
|Daniel W. Butler-Ehle (dwbu...@mtu.edu) wrote:
||Raven (J. Singleton) (ra...@solaria.sol.net) wrote:
||:I concur. The "Old English Rune Poem" covers the Futhark plus the ancillary
||:runes used for Anglo-Saxon, one stanza of four lines for each rune, but there
||:is no stanza for "blank"... unless there's an implied "blank stanza" at the
||:end, after the last stanza with actual words. <grin>
||
|| So is there evidence that these rhymes actually indicate meanings?
|
| The rune-poems are *based upon* the meanings, that is, they are rhymes on the
| *subjects* of the words which are the names of the runes. Please read them.
Whups! So late at night, I focussed on the main point and let the minor
point slip by in error. Daniel, the rune-poems don't use *rhyme* at all;
they're in the alliterative form characteristic of Norse and Anglo-Saxon
poetry, each line with an initial consonant that appears twice in the
first half-line and once in the second half-line, as in the example I gave:
"_F_eoh byth _f_rofur / _f_yra gehwylcum". You'll see this in other noted
poems, such as Beowulf, and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Happy reading!
Roy Jones
Raven (J. Singleton) wrote:
> The Do-Re-Mi system of note-names goes back to the Middle Ages, to monastic
> chants, and specifically to a Gregorian chant whose phrases ascend note by
> note up the scale. The first syllable of each phrase became the name of the
> corresponding note: "Domine..." (Latin for "Lord...") gave us "Do", etc.
>
This is only half correct. The Medieval European system of naming the pitches in
the musical scale with syllables begins not with "do" but "ut."
It originated with a man called Guido of Arezzo, an 11th century monk, who was
looking for a mnemonic for teaching sight-singing. He noticed that in a familiar
hymn, "Ut Queant Laxis Resonare" ("That Thy Servants May Freely Sing"), each of the
six phrases of the melody began on a successively higher note of the scale, and the
text of each of the six phrases began on a different syllable.
The first phrase began on "C" and the corresponding syllable of the text was "Ut;"
the second phrase began on "D" and the syllable of the text on that note was
"re"...and so on to "la," which corresponded to "A." The seventh pitch is a later
addition to the scale. The scale system of Guido's time was based on a sliding
tonal structure called a "hexachord," which consisted of six, not seven pitches.
Guido also used the joints of the fingers of the left hand to represent musical
pitches. He taught his students to sing the correct intervals by pointing to the
coresponding joints of his left hand. If you ever see a copy of a medieval music
theory textbook, you will probably find a "Guidonian Hand" somewhere near the front
of the book.
You can find the story of Guido and the hexachord system in any good text on
musicology. At the moment. I'm referring to "A History of Western Music," by Donald
Jay Grout.
Roy
--
Before enlightenment, there is much chopping of wood,
carrying of water and answering of e-mail.
After enlightenment, there is much chopping of wood,
carrying of water and answering of e-mail.
Goddess in Training
Roy Jones (sroy...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: It originated with a man called Guido of Arezzo, an 11th century monk, who was
: looking for a mnemonic for teaching sight-singing. He noticed that in a familiar
: hymn, "Ut Queant Laxis Resonare" ("That Thy Servants May Freely Sing"), each of the
: six phrases of the melody began on a successively higher note of the scale, and the
: text of each of the six phrases began on a different syllable.
According to my music history text book, Stolba's _The Development of
Western Music_, Guido composed this hymn expressly for this purpose. It
mentions he stated this in a letter (though it neglects to give more
details of this correspondence.
: Guido also used the joints of the fingers of the left hand to represent musical
: pitches. He taught his students to sing the correct intervals by pointing to the
: coresponding joints of his left hand. If you ever see a copy of a medieval music
: theory textbook, you will probably find a "Guidonian Hand" somewhere near the front
: of the book.
Again, my book says something slightly different. According to Stolba,
there's no evidence that Guido himself used the Guidonian hand--none of
his writings refer to it, for example. It does, however, use Guido's
terminology and is therefore called the Guidonian hand.
: You can find the story of Guido and the hexachord system in any good text on
: musicology. At the moment. I'm referring to "A History of Western Music," by Donald
: Jay Grout.
Grout is supposed to be fairly good, but a bit outdated, especially when
it comes to female composers. (I think it even leaves out Hildegard von
Bingen, but many older text books leave her out as well.) Stolba's seen
as more "up-to-date" now, but she still has her flaws (and has her own
mistakes as well). I'm not sure who's correct on the details of Guido,
though I lean towards Stolba's depiction, but at any rate the basic
concept is the same.
--'--,-{@ --,--'-{@ --'--,-{@
Renee Rosen "Transylvanian Concubine,
lil...@cjnetworks.com You know what flows here like wine.
Goddess in Training Stay here with us, it's just time.
Astrud and Kitto on irc Transylvanian Concubine."
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@}-,--'-- @}-'--,-- @}-,--'--
Frank Lee Barney
Goddess in Training wrote:
>
>
<SNIP>
> According to my music history text book, Stolba's _The Development of
> Western Music_, Guido composed this hymn expressly for this purpose. It
> mentions he stated this in a letter (though it neglects to give more
> details of this correspondence.
>
>
<SNIP>
>
> Again, my book says something slightly different. According to Stolba,
> there's no evidence that Guido himself used the Guidonian hand--none of
> his writings refer to it, for example. It does, however, use Guido's
> terminology and is therefore called the Guidonian hand.
>
> : You can find the story of Guido and the hexachord system in any good text on
> : musicology. At the moment. I'm referring to "A History of Western Music," by Donald
> : Jay Grout.
>
> Grout is supposed to be fairly good, but a bit outdated, especially when
> it comes to female composers. (I think it even leaves out Hildegard von
> Bingen, but many older text books leave her out as well.) Stolba's seen
> as more "up-to-date" now, but she still has her flaws (and has her own
> mistakes as well). I'm not sure who's correct on the details of Guido,
> though I lean towards Stolba's depiction, but at any rate the basic
> concept is the same.
I thought about that after I sent the post. It's been years since I
studied that stuff, and I looked at the copyright date on my copy of
Grout and suddenly began feeling my age.
I figured somebody with a more recent text would eventually come along
with another version of the story.
The story about Guido himself having penned "Ut Queant Laxis" comes as a
surprise. None of the texts we read in the '60's attributed the hymn to
Guido.
Your note on the Guidonian Hand was interesting too. When I was
studying, it was generally accepted that it was Guido's invention.
Damn! This is making me feel positively antique.
Roy (out of town for a day or two, using a friend's account)
Goddess in Training
: | under my pillow playing "Re" all night long and wake up with a tan.
: The Do-Re-Mi system of note-names goes back to the Middle Ages, to monastic
: chants, and specifically to a Gregorian chant whose phrases ascend note by
: note up the scale. The first syllable of each phrase became the name of the
: corresponding note: "Domine..." (Latin for "Lord...") gave us "Do", etc.
: So, yes, actually, there *was* originally a word with meaning behind each
: note-name. The abbreviated single-syllable names were mnemonic "hooks",
: and the "Doe, a deer" song is based on the happenstance that most of those
: monosyllables sound like English words -- except poor "La".
Actually, the original first syllable was "ut" and not "do." It was taken
from Guido d'Arezzo's setting of the hymn "Ut queant laxis," which he
composed for pedagogical purposes. The beginning of each phrase would
start on the next note of the scale, and the syllables occuring on each
of these notes were the familiar "ut-re-mi" and so forth. The syllable
"ti" was added later for the 7th scale-step.
According to my music history book, "ut" is still used in Europe and "ut"
is fixed at C, whereas Americans use a movable (transposable) system and
have substituted "do" for "ut." I'm not sure where the "do" came from,
but it could conceivably come from "Domine."
Daniel W. Butler-Ehle
: |
: | So is there evidence that these rhymes actually indicate meanings?
:
: The rune-poems are *based upon* the meanings, that is, they are rhymes on the
: *subjects* of the words which are the names of the runes.
Thus my do-re-mi example...a popular set of rhymes based on the meanings
of the names, but not necessarily indicating that subjects themselves hold
those meanings.
: Please read them.
I will.
: | Therefore magical, right?
:
: I made no claim about "magical". You appear to be reading into my text
: statements I never made.
:
: | Rune names may just be nicknames, not magical power words.
:
: Again, I said nothing about "magical power". You're fighting a straw man.
You are correct.
: | Like "Alpha", "Bravo", "Charlie", etc.
:
: Not far off, actually. The use of "pure letter names", like "Ee" for E,
: doesn't seem to have been the original practice. Rather, letters were named
: after common objects whose words began with that sound. Not quite "Alpha
: Bravo Charlie", but more like the primer "A is for Apple" -- and then drop
: the "A is for", calling the letter itself "Apple". In some cases, the letter
: SHAPE clearly portrays the object named.
My question was whether the runes themselves necessarily carried
meaning, not whether the names did. Perhaps we agree more than I
thought.
: | Isn't that grouping a modern invention by numerology-minded runecasters?
:
: Point is, the "blank rune" is such "a modern invention by... [a] runecaster".
My point was that if the rest of one's runecasting system is largely
of modern invention, then throwing in a blank rune does not further
invalidate it.
: | And they had up to 31 distinct characters.
:
: And I didn't even *try* to describe alternate forms of the *same* rune!
I meant 31 distinct character values, not counting variant forms.
: That amount of detail (and illustration) would do better on paper than ASCII,
: and in a full-fledged article, rather than a brief newsgroup response.
Yeah, I noticed that.
: | When some of the phonetic values changed, the runes' nicknames were also
: | changed to preserve the convention of the nickname beginning with the rune
: | sound.
:
: So you concede that there *was* a convention of names for runes... it's just
: that you prefer to call these "nicknames", as if there were some other names
: that were the "real names" -- and what would those be?
Well yeah, of course. But I haven't seen much evidence that the symbols
carried the meanings of the names.
: | The other ~16-rune Younger Futhark, the Swedo-
: | Norwegian "short twig" futhark, had many very different runes that did not
: | appear in the Elder Futhark;
:
: Here I think you mean that the *shapes* of the runes differed. Again, yes.
Yes.
: | this was the one used throughout most of the Viking Age
: | and you've probably never even seen it.
:
: Since I used those runes when illustrating the Fyrdraca (longship) article
: for Tournaments Illuminated about 15 years ago, your estimate of probability
: is slightly off.
Oh yeah, great...figures that you would be the one-in-a-thousand
amateur runologists who had actually studied any but the elder script.
What's a "Tournaments Illuminated"? (Ulfin puts on his facade of
mundane ignorance to all things sca.)
: I suppose I could list details you've omitted, and suggest that you left them
: out due to ignorance... or
Like the ocassional Anglo-Saxon use of certain runes as a shorthand
for their names. (That's potentially evidence to support the view
that runes hold complex meaning, which is why I didn't bring it up.)
Kinda like writing "C U 2morrow".
: I could acknowledge that it's perfectly all right
: to just hit the relevant "high points", even though you don't grant me that.
Sorry you felt that way. I tried not to respond as if your post
needed to stand on its own.
: Egil Skallagrimsson scratches a rune into a drinking horn, miniates it with
: his own blood, and the horn bursts asunder -- its drink had been poisoned, and
: the rune was against poison. Which rune did he use? Consider the rune Gyfu
: ("gift"), commonly shaped like an "X". What was traditionally inscribed on
: barrels of beer? "XXX". Why?
Cool, I did not know that.
: (I could go on, in the spirit of your "Re" tape-player/suntan-machine, to
: note that *gifts* are traditionally given on *X*mas, but you might think that
: I'm serious, and then we'd have to start discussing the Greek letter Chi....)
I always thought it was a cross to abbreviate "christ", but would not
be surprise to find that it had some other origin. Like the "C" in the
time signature on sheet music. I heard that it is not actually an
abbreviation for "common time" (despite what the teacher said in grade
school); it's not even a "C". It's an incomplete circle, because 4/4
time is not as perfect as 3/3 time (which represents the trinity).
Now why there is not a complete circle to represent 3/3 was not
explained.
Dan
Raven (J. Singleton)
Daniel W. Butler-Ehle (dwbu...@mtu.edu) wrote: [snipping most]
| My question was whether the runes themselves necessarily carried meaning,
| not whether the names did. Perhaps we agree more than I thought.
Perhaps some runes are like Egyptian hieroglyphics -- pictures of objects
whose names are mnemonic "hooks" for the sounds -- thus a rune shaped like a
stylized picture of a thorn ( |> is as close as I can get in ASCII), and
thereby *named* Thorn, represents the starting consonant of the word "thorn".
The character named for "elk-grass" looks somewhat like a drawing of it, etc.
It's hard to see any visual representation in many of the runes -- but their
resemblance to Greek and Latin letters suggests there was also considerable
borrowing, for instance Ken (<) might come from Latin C or Greek Kappa, and
it's even possible the relationship goes back a "generation" to the older
Phoenician alphabet -- which makes comparison to the object-named Hebrew
alphabet all the more reasonable, since Phoenician, like Hebrew, is Semitic.
Let's not forget that we're well into speculation in this topic.
| Well yeah, of course. But I haven't seen much evidence that the symbols
| carried the meanings of the names.
But later, you concede:
| Like the ocassional Anglo-Saxon use of certain runes as a shorthand
| for their names. (That's potentially evidence to support the view
| that runes hold complex meaning, which is why I didn't bring it up.)
| Kinda like writing "C U 2morrow".
Or like getting honey from B-hives to sweeten your T.
|:(I could go on, in the spirit of your "Re" tape-player/suntan-machine, to
|:note that *gifts* are traditionally given on *X*mas, but you might think that
|:I'm serious, and then we'd have to start discussing the Greek letter Chi....)
|
| I always thought it was a cross to abbreviate "christ", but would not
| be surprise to find that it had some other origin.
This is one of those cases where multiple explanations seem plausible,
allowing a host of different origin-stories to evolve. If you've seen
a church interior decorated with Chi-Rho symbols (X and P overlaid to
resemble an asterisk with a loop at the top), those are from the first
two Greek letters in "Christ". "X" is an old abbreviation for "Christ"
in Church usage, dating back to the days when Greek was the primary
Church language (used in the New Testament). Thus Xn, and Xmas.
Oddly enough, some Christians, who never learned the history of their own
religion, now *object* to the X abbreviation, calling it derogatory --
"Put 'Christ' Back In Christmas!" and so forth. I find it quite ironic.
The "fish" symbol is a rebus, a visual pun: "fish" in Greek is "ichthys"
(thus icthyology is the study of fish), Iota Chi Theta Upsilon Sigma, and
this is an acronym for Iesos Christos Theou Yios Soter, Jesus Christ God's
Son Savior. The fish symbol was used before the cross symbol -- it was
drawn on the walls of the Catacombs.
Raven (J. Singleton)
Revisiting an old discussion, with further information....
Daniel W. Butler-Ehle (dwbu...@mtu.edu) wrote:
|Raven (J. Singleton) (ra...@solaria.sol.net) wrote:
[snip]
|:The old Futhark has 24 (non-blank) runes, grouped in three "eights" (aetts).
|:A "blank rune" would make 25, and make one of the "eights" into a "nine".
|:Which of the three "eights" would have its symmetry thus disrupted?
|
| Isn't that grouping a modern invention by numerology-minded runecasters?
Here is the documentation to answer: No.
Quoting Bruce Dickins, Runic Poems and Heroic Poems of the Old Teutonic
Peoples (1915, Cambridge University Press), pp. 1-2:
In its original form the Runic alphabet consisted of 24 letters, which
from the absence of curved or horizontal lines were especially adapted for
carving on wood. ... The alphabet was divided into three sets later styled
in Icelandic _Freys aett, Hagals aett, Tys aett_, from their initial letters
F, H, T. These names were understood as "Frey's family," etc.; but tripartite
division certainly goes back to the original alphabet -- it is found on the
sixth century bracteate from Vadstena, Sweden -- and it is more probable that
_aett_ is derived from _atta_, "eight," and so originally meant "octave."
Each letter, moreover, occupied a definite position; for in Codex Sangallensis
220 are to be found several varieties of Runic cypher -- _Isruna, Lagoruna,
Hahalruna, Stofruna_ -- the solution of which demands a knowledge of the exact
position of each letter in the alphabet. Thus in the Latin _Corui_, the
example given, the sixth letter of the first series is C, the eighth of the
third O, the fifth of the first R, the second of the first U, the third of
the second I. A cypher similar in type to the _Hahalruna_ of the St.Gall MS,
but adapted to the Scandinavian alphabet of the Viking Age, is to be found in
the grave-chamber at Maeshowe (Orkney), and there are traces of similar
characters, now for the most part illegible, in Hackness Church near
Scarborough. [end of paragraph, end of quote]
For the reader's reference in making sense of the _Corui_ discussion, here
is the 24-rune Futhark divided into three "series" or "aetts":
Frey's aett: F U Th A R C/K G W
Hagal's aett: H N I J Ih* P Z S
Tir's aett: T B E M L Ng D O
* or Eo; original value unknown
Bringing the topic back to the thread title, this consistency of sequence
shows just how poorly researched Blum's text was, for him to have derived
*his* sequence by random drawing. The "aetts" arrangement, far from being
more modern than Blum, is the original order; Blum didn't use it, or refer
to it, or acknowledge its existence, because he simply never knew of it.
