Camping on Sunday
eaglef...@my-dejanews.com
- Relationships between the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and
the Boy Scouts of America" states on page 5 that "Keeping the Sabbath day
holy is a commandment of the Lord and the practice of the Church. The Church
does not approve of hiking and camping trips on Sunday. Scouts and other
youth groups should not travel to or from camps or youth conferences on
Sunday. Plans for outings should ensure that Aaronic Priesthood brethren and
other members can attend to their regular church assignments." This Scouting
Handbook is also cited by Church Handbook of Instructions, Book 2, Section 2
- Aaronic Priesthood.
I am a new Scoutmaster and was unaware of this policy until recently. The 1985
guidlines (by the same) name provide almost identical instructions on page 33.
I just returned from a Camp Orientation meeting in Utah where the week long
summer camp was being discussed. The camp runs from Saturday to Saturday. An
LDS service will be held including passing the sacrament ( I wonder who
approved that?). If the show of hands was correct approximately 75% of the
leaders (including myself) intended to attend the full camp and about 95% of
them (including myself) declared themselves LDS. Since the meeting, I have
decided to promote a Monday through Saturday camp. I already know that some of
the young men will not be pleased with my direction. I personally have many
great memories of sacrament/testimoney meetings while camping, but I feel
obligated to honor the policy provided by the church.
My senior patrol leader feels it is unfair to pay full price (~$135) and not
attend the full camp. There will be no discount for those who do not attend on
Sunday. I do not know how the other scouts and their parents (or the ward
leadership for that matter) will respond to my decision/suggestion.
A part of me wants to follow the policy with no explanation required. Another
part of me wants to fast and pray and prepare my boys for a tremendous and
unique spiritual experience on that Sabbath day.
I know that some will criticize "blind obedience" to policy that does not even
claim to be revelation ... yada yada yada. I have entertained those views and
trust a few will try to drive it further home.
I know other will criticize the entertainment of disobedience to policy ...
yada yada yada.
I hope this can lead to some enlightening and considerate conversation.
Thanks from one who would soar with the Eagle.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Clackanaw
holy is a commandment of the Lord and the practice of the Church. The Church
does not approve of hiking and camping trips on Sunday. Scouts and other
youth groups should not travel to or from camps or youth conferences on
Sunday. >>
Please note that the guidelines state that no TRAVEL to or from the camp should
happen. As for the Sacrament service (passing, especially), I believe that the
local Bishop is apprised and give his approval--that is if appropriate
preisthood leadership will be available.
Camping on Sunday is not breaking the sabbath. Using the day to break camp,
travel home, etc. could, I presume be considered breaking the sabbath. But
BEING in camp and participating in services with like-minded campers could
never be breaking the sabbath. IMHO.
Clack
eaglef...@my-dejanews.com
Sunday. I have two "trips" planned already that will include Sunday and an
approved sacrament service. I have no concern about breaking the Sabbath as I
do this. However, when it comes to taking the entire Aaronic Priesthood away
from "their regular chruch assignments" on Sunday, I feel that I have no
authority (or inspiration) to go against a policy geared specifically toward
scouting activities.
I sense that if the word "trips" had been removed from the statement "The
Church does not approve of hiking and camping trips on Sunday.", that you
would not be as confident in your interpretation that it is the TRAVEL that
is the problem for a scout troop. I read the sentence just quoted as a
stand-alone position that is not modified by the next sentence about the
"travel". The "travel" sentence seems geared toward those who agree with a
"no SCOUT camping" position, but would still rationalize the "travel" as a
harmless Sunday activity. I admit, it could be read either way and I could be
wrong.
Thanks for your input and feel free to correct some of my assumptions if they
misrepresent your views.
BTW, are you still invilved with Vanguard (saw it in a previous posting)? My
wife loves to watch and we will probably catch them at Weber State University
again this year. I need to check the schedule if I plan on scoring points by
getting tickets in advance :)
Paul
Franckum
old Scoutmaster who has tried numerous approaches:
1) Going up Saturday and having a Sunday sacrament service can be a spiritual
experience. We did this all the time when I was in Scouts 35 years ago. One
problem, however, is what to do the rest of the day. Ideally boys would be
reading scriptures by the side of a stream but in reality they have lots of
free time to go off and get in trouble. I think this can be made to work, but
I interpret it to be contrarty to the spirit of the new handbook.
2) In the past, we have also traveled to camp right after church on Sunday.
The 90 minute drive is less than what many members in our stake drive for stake
conference. This worked well, but is also contrary to the new guidelines.
3) Best solution I have found is get a camp that welcomes LDS units and offers
a week geared for everything starting on Monday. You may need to go
out-of-Council to find this and you'll probably have to pay full fees. Going
up early Monday morning on a week when everyone else arrived on Sunday
shortchanges the boys as they miss out opening campfire, orientation. Worse
yet, they wind up with the left over "scraps" when selecting activities.
Best wishes!
Jim Franckum
SQuantz1
>offers
>a week geared for everything starting on Monday. You may need to go
>out-of-Council to find this and you'll probably have to pay full fees. Going
>up early Monday morning on a week when everyone else arrived on Sunday
>shortchanges the boys as they miss out opening campfire, orientation. Worse
>yet, they wind up with the left over "scraps" when selecting activities.
>Best wishes!
>Jim Franckum
>
>
Of course,unless one lives in Utah, Idaho or Arizona, this is impossible.
Scott
Franckum
commented:
>Of course,unless one lives in Utah, Idaho or Arizona, this is impossible.
>
>
That is not quite true since we did it in Colorado, but you're correct that
a council would need to have enough LDS units to make it work (probably in the
West). Our local council (Longs Peak) sometimes offers an LDS week and
sometimes not. One year we went to the Denver Area council camp since they
designated one week of camp as an LDS week (Mon - Sat).
Even though there is a bit of a hassle to change the program to accomidate
an LDS week, it's good business for the BSA council. Not only does it help LDS
units, it also gives the staff an extra day off and saves money that would have
been spent on a few hundred Sunday meals. It can work!
Branden Morris
: >3) Best solution I have found is get a camp that welcomes LDS units and
: >offers
: >a week geared for everything starting on Monday. You may need to go
: >out-of-Council to find this and you'll probably have to pay full fees. Going
: >up early Monday morning on a week when everyone else arrived on Sunday
: >shortchanges the boys as they miss out opening campfire, orientation. Worse
: >yet, they wind up with the left over "scraps" when selecting activities.
: >Best wishes!
: >Jim Franckum
: >
: Of course,unless one lives in Utah, Idaho or Arizona, this is impossible.
Actually, I believe that Scout camps in the National Capital Area
Council (Washington DC) and possibly the Greater New York City Council
offer "LDS weeks" with the non-BSA-traditional Monday-Saturday camp week
(as opposed to the BSA standard Sunday-Saturday camp week). It's
entirely possible that other areas do this as well, or will do this if
the LDS units ask for it.
--
Branden Morris bmo...@lynx.dac.neu.edu
http://www.net1plus.com/users/morris/
Clackanaw
Church does not approve of hiking and camping trips on Sunday.", that you
would not be as confident in your interpretation that it is the TRAVEL that
is the problem for a scout troop. >>
Paul:
I think it reinforces rather than erodes my opinion. Sitting around camp,
reading scriptures, enjoying the enriched brotherhood that comes when scouting
is combined with the priesthood is still not "hiking and camping," trip or no.
<< BTW, are you still invilved with Vanguard (saw it in a previous posting)?
>>
Sadly, no. My post regarding the Vanguard dealt with my, umm shall we say,
rigid mother disallowing my participation with the Vanguard because of Sunday
practices. I'm an avid watcher, though.
Del Hughes
aka Clack
Robert
>The current (1997) guidlines prepared by the Church called "Scouting Handbook
>snip some discussion of camping on Sunday
When I was a teenager, we had a church sponsored campout for only LDS
troops. The year would have been 1980 or 1981. It was held in Florida
at the church-owned ranch there. If was for LDS scout troops from all
over the southeast. I don't remember exactly what days the camp
started and ended on, but it went for about a week and included a
Sunday. We did not arrive or leave on a Sunday, I do remember that.
We had a rather large church service on that Sunday. Each troop sent
some boys to help in the administration of the sacrament to the rather
large gathering. There were General Authorities at the camp during the
whole week. If I recall, there was at least one Apostle there for the
Sunday service and maybe one of the counselors in the First Presidency
(memory is a little fuzzy on that). Concentrating on the spirituality
of a meeting can be difficult for a teenage boy, especially when
you're melting in the heat swatting at the occasional insect.
After the large Sacrament Meeting (I wanted to say mass Sacrament
Meeting, but somehow it seems like an oxymoron), we went back to our
respective campsites and each troop had their own testimony meeting. I
remember many boys that day who got up day and said that they had been
so inspired by the event that they had made a commitment to become and
Eagle Scout (I may have even done so, but memory is real fuzzy on
that). Of the guys in our group, I don't think that anyone ever made
it to Eagle (including me) except for the 2 or 3 who already were
Eagles.
Later that afternoon, when there was no structured activity, boys
started looking for ways to stay occupied. Many turned to various
sporting activities such as football and baseball. I remember hearing
various adult leaders comment about how that was inappropriate on the
Sabbath.
Anyway, the point I was trying to make is: I attended a church
sponsored scout camp that included a Sunday, but no travel on Sunday.
General Authorities were present and obviously had approved the events
(fact). Although you can still have church meetings, being camped out
on Sunday isn't really conducive to keeping the whole day holy
(opinion).
Robert
SQuantz1
>Council (Washington DC) and possibly the Greater New York City Council
>offer "LDS weeks" with the non-BSA-traditional Monday-Saturday camp week
>(as opposed to the BSA standard Sunday-Saturday camp week). It's
>entirely possible that other areas do this as well, or will do this if
>the LDS units ask for it.
>
>
>--
>Branden Morris
You are blessed if your Councils offer such opportunities. Most Councils in
areas where the LDS population is insignificant, are reserved a year in advance
and offering and LDS week would not be financially sound.
In Michigan there have been 2 LDS camps offered in 6 years. They have both
been held at a camp in Eastern Michigan but troops from the entire region were
invited.
Upon arrival, there was no BSA staff and all position were expediently filled
by leaders of various units on a voluntary basis (food was catered). The
reason the regular camp staff was not available? The encampment was reserved
for the week after most schools had started and the camp staff - except the
director - was off for the season.
It is important, I think, for our scouts to not only enjoy the traditional
summer camp experience, but also the interaction with non-LDS troops.
Fortunately, our Stake President, himself a Silver Beaver, agrees and has
waived the new policy with approval by the Area Presidency.
Simply stating that LDS units need only ask for special treatment for summer
camp is very unrealistic and indicates to those of us long involved in Scouting
in the non-Western States, some trace of inexperience.
Scott
Branden Morris
: Simply stating that LDS units need only ask for special treatment for summer
: camp is very unrealistic and indicates to those of us long involved in Scouting
: in the non-Western States, some trace of inexperience.
Actually, Scott, for those of us who have been involved in Scouting for
long time in non-Western states (15 years in Scouting, including Eagle
Scout, training staffs, unit leadership, district leadership, council
leadership, membership on area, regional, and national committees,
veteran camp staffer and National Camping School faculty member, with
the appropriate recognitions and awards, and all in New England), we
understand that units can often get what they need to make their program
work simply by asking. It's neither unrealistic, nor does it show
inexperience, to think that a Scout may be helpful, friendly, courteous,
and kind.
Each council has a relationships function; be it simlpy a DE who
coordinates the needs of chartered partners, a committee of
representatives of all the chartered partners, or a specific LDS
Scouting Committee. If the Bishop / Stake President is active as a
Chartered Organizational Rep or Institutional Head in the council, they
can request to work with the camp leadership to provide a program for
LDS units. If the LDS units simply sit back and don't tell the camp and
council leadership what they need, of course it won't get done. If the
LDS units do more to work with the council and district and not be
seperatist and stand-offish (as was the case with LDS units in my
council until they smartened up), it just makes it easier for special
considerations. We have no one to blame but ourselves if we're not
getting our boys what they need from Scouting, of which the long-term
summer camp experience can be crucial.
Yours (in Scouting),
Branden Morris
cdo...@my-dejanews.com
eaglef...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
snip
The camp runs from Saturday to Saturday. An
> LDS service will be held including passing the sacrament
Blessing and passing of the sacrament would involve obtaining the permission
of the chuch authorities who are over the geographic area where you are doing
your camp. The church has been very clear on that subject.
Best regards,
Charles dowis
Blair Hedges
[snip]
> Later that afternoon, when there was no structured activity, boys
> started looking for ways to stay occupied. Many turned to various
> sporting activities such as football and baseball. I remember hearing
> various adult leaders comment about how that was inappropriate on the
> Sabbath.
As someone investigating the LDS Church, I have attended several
sacrament meetings. One Sunday the topic was precisely keeping
Sunday holy (it seems strange to call Sunday the Sabbath, I always
think of Saturday instead). The speaker(s) said that keeping Sunday
holy was taking a rest from "whatever you do for work" -- this was a
singles' ward and most members there were students, so the students
were told not to study on Sundays. From the discussions at the
ward, my impression was that Sunday was a day of fellowship (broadly
defined) and rest.
>From SRM posts I get the impression that many Mormons have a more
restrictive view of Sundays.
What is appropriate and not appropriate on Sundays?
Blair Hedges
email: bh4002 at student dot law dot duke dot edu
Chris Bolton
>What is appropriate and not appropriate on Sundays?
>
>Blair Hedges
>email: bh4002 at student dot law dot duke dot edu
Go to Isa. 58:13. It says that we should not be doing our "own ways"
(work), our "own pleasure" (recreation), or speaking our "own words"
(talking about work and hobbies and other worldly topics). We should
concentrate on the things of God and save the other stuff for Mon -
Sat.
Chris Bolton
cbolton at rmci.net (E-Mail)
Robert
>As someone investigating the LDS Church, I have attended several
>sacrament meetings. One Sunday the topic was precisely keeping
>Sunday holy (it seems strange to call Sunday the Sabbath, I always
>think of Saturday instead). The speaker(s) said that keeping Sunday
>holy was taking a rest from "whatever you do for work" -- this was a
>singles' ward and most members there were students, so the students
>were told not to study on Sundays. From the discussions at the
>ward, my impression was that Sunday was a day of fellowship (broadly
>defined) and rest.
>
>>From SRM posts I get the impression that many Mormons have a more
>restrictive view of Sundays.
>
>What is appropriate and not appropriate on Sundays?
>
I think that you will get as many different answers as people you ask
this question to. I like the fact that you ask what is appropriate, I
think that to many times we stress on the list of what not to do and
miss out on the things we should be doing.
I have heard that the Sabbath is a day for us to rest from our labors
and do the work of the Lord. To that end, I think that many things can
fall in that category, including (but certainly not limited to):
Attending church, and other appropriate meetings (such as firesides)
Spending time with our family (in Sabbath appropriate activities, of
course)
Visiting the sick or those who may be lonely and in need of fellowship
Doing geneaology
Writing letters to missionaries (and family and friends)
Doing missionary work
Listening to uplifting music
Nap (my personal favorite, but you probably won't hear anyone else put
it on their Sabbath to do list)
Or basically anything that brings us closer to Heavenly Father
Among the generally prohibited activities (their is no official list,
but I think that many people would list these):
Shopping (except in emergency, like to get a prescription filled)
Attending sporting events (of course, it's OK to play in them if you
win the Superbowl, as in the example of Steve Young). Don't get me
started on this topic or I'll be up all night expressing very strong
opinions.
The general theme for prohibited Sabbath activities seems to be don't
do anything that makes you feel more part of the world and less of the
"special Sabbath spirit". I do believe that Sunday should feel
different from other days. I remember as a missionary I enjoyed Sunday
even more than p-day because if felt more relaxing.
When I was growing up my parents went through some pretty strict
phases of Sabbath observance (or at least some would call them
strict). I remember when I was very little we would sometimes stop on
the way home from Sacrament meeting (in the evening back then) to get
a treat. One Sunday (I believe it was in a General or Stake
Conference) a speaker spoke about not patronizing businesses on
Sunday. Mom announced on the way home from that meeting that we would
no longer be stopping for treats. I mention that just to show how my
parents Sabbath observance changed over time. Sometimes we had no TV
on Sunday. Another one they had was to stay in church clothes during
the day (actually, we changed when we got home from church so as not
to mess up our actual church clothes and just wore clothes that were
dressier than our usual weekday attire). We were not allowed to play
games that involved money such as Monopoly, but games like chess were
allowed.
Although my current Sabbath observance is not that strict, i can't say
that the strictness of my parents bothered me that much as a teenager.
I knew that my parents were stricter than most other parents at
church, but we learned to live with it.
One of the radio stations where I live did a time machine day this
week where they played songs from the 70's and 80's and invited
listeners to share memories. One of the listeners called up and said
that what she remembers from the 70's was that all of the stores were
closed on Sunday. Times change.
Robert
Ann Porter
>bc...@duke.eduNOSPAM (Blair Hedges) wrote:
>>What is appropriate and not appropriate on Sundays?
>>
>I think that you will get as many different answers as people you ask
>this question to. I like the fact that you ask what is appropriate, I
>think that to many times we stress on the list of what not to do and
>miss out on the things we should be doing.
I also think that even lists of "OK/Not OK" activities can miss a more
important aspect of keeping the Sabbath - what's in your heart.
There's a hymn we hardly EVER sing in the hymn book - "Sabbath Day" (#148,
by Paul L. Anderson and Lynn R. Carson) - that does a really good job of
summarizing the purpose of the Sabbath. I think if we remember the purpose
(to renew ourselves for the week ahead, to give glory to God, to have a day
free of the cares of the world), the "do's and don'ts" take care of
themselves.
Best,
Ann
Jeanne
Blair Hedges <bc...@duke.eduNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:7dc51h$q07$1...@goliath.lightrealm.com...
> On 24 Mar 1999 06:21:05 GMT, rjc...@mindspring.com (Robert ) wrote:
>
>
> What is appropriate and not appropriate on Sundays?
What is appropriate on the Sabbath is largely left up to personal
intrepretation given one's circumstances. I imagine how my family observes
the sabbath would be frowned upon by many in traditional and some what
orthodox Mormon homes. Having a non-member spouse does make what we do on
Sundays ( and often being his only day off)
does make it somewhat problamatic for me. I have found that healthy
compromise and keeping the sabbath in spirit can be just as effective as the
outward preformance.
Jeanne
SQuantz1
>inexperience, to think that a Scout may be helpful, friendly, courteous,
>and kind.
>
I agree, but I disagree that there are many councils that will alter their
Summer Camp schedules to accomodate an LDS troop.
Having served in some unit or council capacity since 1972 in Indiana, Michigan,
and Utah. It has been my experience that the Utah councils, comprised almost
exclusively of LDS units, will make such accomodations easily and those others
with sparce LDS representation will not.
The Church has much influence on the executive levels, nationally, but it doe
snot enjoy the same influence in most councils.
I suspect it would be nearly impossible, for example, for one of the official
High Adventure Camps tp alter their schedules to accomodate the LDS scouts and
even more difficult for camps like... say.. Philmont.
In other areas, the councils are very, very accomodating, just not in the
Summer Camp arena.
> If the Bishop / Stake President is active as a
>Chartered Organizational Rep or Institutional Head in the council, they
>can request to work with the camp leadership to provide a program for
>LDS units.
My current Stake President sits on the local board, as do two members of the
High Council. Even they recognize the problems altering the Summer Camp
program to fit LDS needs would cause within the council.
In Indiana, I say on the board and made three requests in as many years for the
council to provide one week per Summer for the LDS units in the council. The
requests were denied because the camps would have been 1) only at half capacity
and 2) Other, non-LDS units, would be forced to go elsewhere or sacrifice
Summer Camp.
On other issues, such as Sunday training and other meetings, both councils have
been wonderful.
<snip some accurate stuff>
>We have no one to blame but ourselves if we're not
>getting our boys what they need from Scouting, of which the long-term
>summer camp experience can be crucial.
I agree, to a point. But what kind of camp experience would they get if the
camp was full of LDS troops and no others?
To cajole a council into altering Summer Camp schedules to run Monday thru
Saturday would only serve to further alientate non LDS Scouts and Scouters,
shorten the experience by a full day, and upset the non LDS members of the
Executive Council.
If there were time at the end of the Summer, before school starts, to plan and
execute an LDS only encampment, it would be great. But I have yet to see the
council whose camp was underutilized in the Summer.
Our troop has decided to attend traditional camps every other year and make
plan our own high adventure on the off year.
We have found our camps to be less expensive and more exciting for the boys,
but missing the the experience of the traditional camp and the interaction with
boys they do not know.
If you have found the way to convince your council to alter the Summer Camp
Schedule to fit the needs of LDS troops, please share the knowledge.
Scott
r...@cherry-semi.com
rjc...@mindspring.com wrote:
> eaglef...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >The current (1997) guidlines prepared by the Church called "Scouting Handbook
>
> >snip some discussion of camping on Sunday
>
> When I was a teenager, we had a church sponsored campout for only LDS
> troops.
I had a similar experience growing up in the Boston area. IIRC (is Mr Stone
influencing me?), the stake reserved the camp for all LDS troops. Camp
lasted two weeks so obviously we spanned a Sunday. That Sunday was always a
Fast Sunday so as to not require the camp chefs to cook on the sabbath. Of
course, us young scouts would try anything to curb our hunger; chewing tree
bark, sticking pine needles in our teeth, etc. Ahh, the memories of Camp
Quinapoxet.
Anyway, we had a testimony meeting followed by a fireside devotional (by a
real fire, even) that was presented by a GA, namely L. Tom Perry, since he
was from that area.
Although, the experience did not inspire me to be an Eagle Scout (I had
already made that commitment and the 2-week summer camps definitely helped
accrue the merit badges) it did teach me that true worship can occur in any
setting, when necessary.
Roger.
...True religion is the creator of scripture,
not only the interpreter thereof...
David Stone
> > The camp runs from Saturday to Saturday. An LDS
> > service will be held including passing the sacrament
>
> Blessing and passing of the sacrament would involve obtaining the
> permission of the chuch authorities who are over the geographic area where
> you are doing your camp. The church has been very clear on that subject.
CoJCoLDS Sacrament, as with all its priesthood functions, requires
the Keys of the Priesthood. The Keys are held by the priesthood
holder in charge, the local Bishop for your Sacrament usually. Without
the Key holder's consent, all CoJCoLDS priesthood functions are
without value.
Obviously, at Stake level, the key holder is the Stake President
and so on. One important Key holder is the father/husband who
holds the priesthood Keys for his household/family.
Robert
>In Article <7dbj8g$n2j$1...@goliath.lightrealm.com>, cdo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > > The camp runs from Saturday to Saturday. An LDS
> > > service will be held including passing the sacrament
> >
> > Blessing and passing of the sacrament would involve obtaining the
> > permission of the chuch authorities who are over the geographic area where
> > you are doing your camp. The church has been very clear on that subject.
>
>CoJCoLDS Sacrament, as with all its priesthood functions, requires
>the Keys of the Priesthood. The Keys are held by the priesthood
>holder in charge, the local Bishop for your Sacrament usually.
I have heard that one of the reasons for this is so that the
priesthood leader can be sure that nothing improper starts going on as
part of the Sacrament ordinance.
On the subject of camping, our bishop got a letter today from an LDS
Scout leader in Tennessee. They are planning a Wood Badge training for
LDS Scout leaders. The letter mentioned that this training will
incorporate 2 LDS standards: no camping or activities on Sunday and no
men and women camping together. The Sunday activities will be held on
Monday.
Robert
David Stone
> What is appropriate and not appropriate on Sundays?
Celebration is appropriate, an extra ice-cream perhaps.
Sunday is not the Jewish sabbath. Otherwise, it
would be on Saturday.