Nudity in Art?
David / Amicus
acceptable? This morning while out driving I passed a garden store owned
by the former bishop of the ward in which I reside. And I noticed a
statue of Venus. I don't know if it was for a fountain or just a garden
statue. It was life-size and nude. It's a famous classical one and she's
using her hands to cover particular body parts / areas, trying to be
modest.
dianaiad
Is it OK to have the nude human figure portrayed in art? Since BYU,
BYU-Idaho and BYU-Hawaii all offer life drawing/painting and figure
drawing/painting courses in their fine arts degree, I would say that
this is a 'yes,' at least provisionally.
I believe it all depends on the context of the art. Your example of
Venus is a case in point: there is nothing wrong with the nude figure
portrayed in art. It's when you start carving the sort of thing found
on certain southern Indian Temples that the line might be crossed...;-)
ab...@arrl.net
Hello, David,
Is there a chance that anyone might consider that particular statue to
be pornographic? Of course there is. In such a situation, anyone who
thinks the starue is pronographic should not own it or view it. Our
leaders teach very strongly againt pornography. God, our Father,
however, must not believe that nudity is, per se, pronographic.
According to he tales of the creation, after He had created bodis for
Adam and Eve, they walked around in the Garden of Eden, completely nude
and thought nothing of it even in the presence of heavenly beings.
The Apostle Paul, we think, writing to Titus, said
Titus 1:15
15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled
and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience
is defiled.
I think the leaders of the Church are for the most part as pure as any
men on earth are likely to be. I suspect they have no real problem with
true art, of which this well may be an example. I suspect that those
who think that the nude human form is impure, are themselves of sort of
a seared conscience.
BTW, I restrict the meaning of the word "Modest" to be the expression
of the opposite of the word "Boastful". Perhaps the Venus here is
trying to express "chastity" rather than "mosesty". But I recognize you
use is widely accepted, whereas mine may not be.
This thread may generate some interesting comments.
D_Frum...@ndersnat.ch
> Is there a chance that anyone might consider that particular statue to
> be pornographic? Of course there is. In such a situation, anyone who
> thinks the starue is pronographic should not own it or view it.
<SNIP>
A few years ago, an exhibition (ahem) of sculpture by Auguste Rodin
came to BYU. There was a big fuss made because the Y chose to leave three
of the statues in their crates and not display them. One of the three was
the famous "Thinker."
About a year later, the same exhibit came to the U of U's Utah Museum
of Fine Art. I took my kids to see it, and as far as I can tell, it did
them no harm. Indeed, my son has since turned into something of an art
historian. (How many teenagers do you know who can tell you what
chiaroscuro is?)
I found nothing in the exhibit that offended me. Indeed, I was at a
loss to guess which of the other two statues BYU had censored.
But censor they did.
Bill
--------------------------------------------
| God himself does not compel the intellect, |
| nor does he attempt to overthrow it. |
| -- J. Reuben Clark |
____________________________________________
Helen
"David / Amicus" <Ami...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12nloea...@news.supernews.com...
If this offends a person then they truly are being very narrow mineded. It
is beautiful piece of art and not at all offensive.
People should use their own discretion and not be led by what the church
tells them to think.
Graham Fountain
official church position on pornography, but I think it is left to the
individual to determine what is art and what is pornography. For example
in a recent ward I was in, one of the members started a petition to have
the "pornographic" statues removed from one of the local parks (it has
a number of replicas of classic nude statues, such as David, Venus,
etc). So here was a case of an LDS member who did view that as
pornography. On the other hand, I am LDS and I do not see this type of
art as pornography, and see it as very tasteful. I would have no
objection to putting a statue such as this in my own yard. Just as I
would have no objection to hanging some of the old nude paintings in my
house.
BTW, considering the fairly poor response the lady got in her petition,
I think a fair number of church members in our ward either A) didn't
care, or B) didn't view classical art as pornography.
John S.Colton
>Is there any LDS position / standard / guideline on what's okay /
>acceptable?
[snip]
No, I don't think there are any particular guidelines on this from
church leaders.
John
*****
"How do I know what I think until I see what
I say?" --EM Forster
Helen
"John S.Colton" <colton.idisl...@uwlax.edu> wrote in message
news:12nsi60...@news.supernews.com...
> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 16:18:18 -0000, David / Amicus wrote:
>
>>Is there any LDS position / standard / guideline on what's okay /
>>acceptable?
> [snip]
>
> No, I don't think there are any particular guidelines on this from
> church leaders.
>
> John
>
>
cultured people that there is art and then there is pornography, there is a
difference, one is in good taste and classic, the other is degrading and in
very poor taste.
The statue of David and Venus and other such art forms are not at all
distasteful.
dianaiad
Why are you assuming that the 'church tells them to think' that art
such as this is offensive, Helen?
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
>
> Is it OK to have the nude human figure portrayed in art? Since BYU,
> BYU-Idaho and BYU-Hawaii all offer life drawing/painting and figure
> drawing/painting courses in their fine arts degree, I would say that
> this is a 'yes,' at least provisionally.
I'd be interested in any recent observations about life studies in the
art classes at the Y. When I took classes in the mumble-mumble decade,
the female models wore bikinis [1]; the male models trunks.
Craig, rather surprised when I took life studies at RPI [2]
[1] Which was pretty scandalous in itself
[2] Not Rensselaer Polytech, but Richmond Professional (now VCU)
Jeffrey Needle
>
> David / Amicus wrote:
>> Is there any LDS position / standard / guideline on what's okay /
>> acceptable?
A personal story, if I may. Some years ago I was at the home of Boyd and
Zina Petersen in Provo. We were having dinner, along with Zina's father
(Hugh Nibley) and mother. When Hugh arrived at the home, he was in a
rather foul mood. I couldn't catch everything he was grumbling about, but
it had to do with BYU's understanding of great art and some crisis about
removing nudes from an art collection.
I will not repeat some of the things he said -- suffice it to say that it
took a really good pizza and salad to get him back on the straight and
narrow. <grin>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey Needle
jeff....@gmail.com
dianaiad
Now that you mention it, I was going on the art classes I have
attended; "life drawing" was always an euphamism for 'nude models.' At
BYU, evidently, and as of July of this year, it means "bikinis and
speedos," which quite frankly seems somehow more obscene than simple
nudity, but that could just be me.
I have to find out if BYU Idaho, which has a larger art department, and
BYU Hawaii, which has a bigger art department than both of the other
universities combined, follow suit.
I hope not. I have this flash of a question....if they do this in the
art department, which is about as clinical as you can get, (I've never
met anybody in a life drawing class that was thinking salacious
thoughts; they were too worried about getting the lines right, and the
model was too worried about his or her aching back or that infernal
itch above the right eyebrow) Then what about pre-med classes and
anatomy? Do they dress the cadavers in mother hubbards?
I am rather disappointed, if you want to know the truth.
Paula
wrote:
>Then what about pre-med classes and
>anatomy? Do they dress the cadavers in mother hubbards?
When I took anatomy at BYU in Provo in the 80's, the cadavers were
nude. I will be eternally grateful that I was not subjected to the
sight of a cadaver in a speedo.
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
Helen
"dianaiad" <dian...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:12ntrca...@news.supernews.com...
Beacause this LDS guy asked for what the churches stance is on such art
work...Why would he feel the need to ask unless he thought the church had an
official stance?
>
dianaiad
Hmmn. Perhaps because he was curious as to whether it did? I responded
to you as I did because your statement seemed to accept as a premise
that the church would automatically be against it.
It's not something I ever really thought about, myself. I simply
figured that this was something that would be between the artist and
God; that, as you mentioned earlier, the difference between art and
pornography is fairly clear to the observer, even if the observer can't
objectively define that difference. It has always seemed to me that if
it's art, it's OK.
Of course, calling pornography 'art' doesnt' make it so. ;-) That is a
judgment that the observers have to make.
> >
Father of Peace
There are over 300 articles on LdS.org that mention
pornography, but only 28 that mention nudity, and
none of the nudity references are very recent. I'll
quote a few of the most recent general conference
addresses below.
Joseph B. Wirthlin, "Patience, a Key to Happiness,"
Ensign, May 1987, 30 (General Conference Report)
> The obscenity, nudity, and other forms of pornography that
> would have made us blush and turn away in shame in 1947
> are now thrust at us openly in printed and audiovisual material.
> They are even paraded through our homes unless we are
> careful to keep them out.
Joseph is calling nudity an "other form of pornography"
so I presume that he would be against nudity in art.
M. Russell Ballard, "The Joy of Hope Fulfilled,"
Ensign, Nov. 1992, 31 (General Conference Report)
> the plagues of pornography, drug misuse, immorality,
> AIDS, and child abuse become more oppressive with
> each passing day. The media busily satisfies an
> apparently insatiable appetite of audiences to
> witness murder, violence, nudity, sex, and profanity.
While Russell doesn't come right out and say that
nudity is bad, he is lumping it in together with
murder, violence, and swearing; so I presume that
he also would be against nudity in art.
Joe J. Christensen, "The Savior Is Counting on You,"
Ensign, Nov. 1996, 39 (General Conference Report)
> It is very unreasonable to suppose that exposure
> to profanity, nudity, sex, and violence has no
> negative effects on us. We can't roll around in
> the mud without getting dirty.
So Joe is saying that nudity has negative effects on
us and makes us dirty. so I likewise presume that
he is against nudity in art.
But this is only three general authorities and they might
simply be expressing their own personal opinions,
and not be speaking for God nor for the church.
Father of Peace
David / Amicus wrote:
> Is there any LDS position / standard / guideline on what's okay /
> acceptable?
I figure that it is like most everything else in mormonism...
Some LdS are horrified at any depiction of the human body
in anything other than loose baggy clothing.
Other LdS are just fine with nudity in art.
And both sides will use the mormon scriptures
and teachings of church leaders to advocate
their position as if it were the only
possible interpretation of mormonism.
On a personal note, the best thing I ever did after
I was accused of apostasy from the LdS church
was to visit a nude beach. It was the most modest
thing I ever experienced.
Father of Peace
Graham Fountain wrote:
> in a recent ward I was in, one of the members started a petition to have
> the "pornographic" statues removed from one of the local parks
> BTW, considering the fairly poor response the lady got in her petition,
> I think a fair number of church members in our ward either A) didn't
> care, or B) didn't view classical art as pornography.
I would like to believe that you come from one of those
great wards in the church, where the saints recognize
that it is inappropriate to use the violence inherent in
government against peaceable non-believers. I've been
in a ward like that from time to time, and it is a wonderful
place to be.
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
>>>
>>>>Is there any LDS position / standard / guideline on what's okay /
>>>>acceptable? This morning while out driving I passed a garden store
>>>>owned by the former bishop of the ward in which I reside. And I noticed
>>>>a statue of Venus. I don't know if it was for a fountain or just a garden
>>>>statue. It was life-size and nude. It's a famous classical one and
>>>>she's using her hands to cover particular body parts / areas, trying to
>>>>be modest.
>>>>
>>>If this offends a person then they truly are being very narrow mineded.
>>>It is beautiful piece of art and not at all offensive.
>>>People should use their own discretion and not be led by what the church
>>>tells them to think.
>>
>>Why are you assuming that the 'church tells them to think' that art
>>such as this is offensive, Helen?
>
> Beacause this LDS guy asked for what the churches stance is on such art
> work...
Well, for the record, "this LDS guy" who asked the question happens to
be a devout Catholic, not LdS at all, so does your response about the
"church" telling people what to think still work?
> Why would he feel the need to ask unless he thought the church had an
> official stance?
Why does anyone ask questions in a newsgroup?
Craig, putting the hemlock on to brew
Helen
"Father of Peace" <srm...@absalom.org> wrote in message
news:12o2rds...@news.supernews.com...
>
>
Russell Ballard, "The Joy of Hope Fulfilled,"
> Ensign, Nov. 1992, 31 (General Conference Report)
>> the plagues of pornography, drug misuse, immorality,
>> AIDS, and child abuse become more oppressive with
>> each passing day. The media busily satisfies an
>> apparently insatiable appetite of audiences to
>> witness murder, violence, nudity, sex, and profanity.
>
Sounds like the Old Testamament.to me!.
>
Helen
Understood. I personally would not feel comfortable at a nudist beach, but
for most nudists ( or really what they call themselves are Naturalists) do
not view the naked body as sexual. Many people can see past that....if there
are people there just to perve and be lurid, they would not last long....On
a more private note, I have been skinny dipping, with only my husband
present, there is nothing like swimming in the sea naked, just you and the
clear blue salt water, it is very calming and not at all sexual...We were
born naked....
>
Father of Peace
Helen wrote:
> On
> a more private note, I have been skinny dipping, with only my husband
> present, there is nothing like swimming in the sea naked, just you and the
> clear blue salt water, it is very calming and not at all sexual...
I have always longed to go skinny dipping with my sweetheart,
but my mormon taboos scream out against accidentally being
seen naked so I never have.
As an aside, in recent months in Utah, there have been a number
of news stories, from various parts of the state, about mormon
bishops and scout leaders who are being prosecuted for lewdness
and/or child abuse, because they went skinny dipping with
their scout troop.
I don't have first hand knowledge about any of the cases,
but my best guess is that the bishops and scout leaders
just went skinny dipping with their scouts without any
sort of sexual predation.
I think there is a rift in the LdS church, between
ultra-orthodox members and traditional members.
So a bishop from the traditional wing of mormonism
takes his scouts skinny dipping, and it's no big
deal until the kid's ultra-orthodox mother finds out
about it, and then the courts need to become involved
in order for the mother to force her world view onto
the unbelieving bishop.
I see this sort of rift everywhere I look in mormonism:
The caffeine controversy is a classic example.
Helen
>
> Helen wrote:
>> On
>> a more private note, I have been skinny dipping, with only my husband
>> present, there is nothing like swimming in the sea naked, just you and
>> the
>> clear blue salt water, it is very calming and not at all sexual...
>
> I have always longed to go skinny dipping with my sweetheart,
> but my mormon taboos scream out against accidentally being
> seen naked so I never have.
>
Oh, forget it ( the taboo) It feels very free to be naked in the water.not
erotic, just like being a kid again...
> As an aside, in recent months in Utah, there have been a number
> of news stories, from various parts of the state, about mormon
> bishops and scout leaders who are being prosecuted for lewdness
> and/or child abuse, because they went skinny dipping with
> their scout troop.
Well I guess they have to be careful....it could be misconstrued. It was
most likely done in all innocence, how many stories are there of frat boys
taking a skinny dip or running around the campus but naked as a dare? Not
sexual, just larking about..
Nudity is not always sexual...
>
> I don't have first hand knowledge about any of the cases,
> but my best guess is that the bishops and scout leaders
> just went skinny dipping with their scouts without any
> sort of sexual predation.
>
I think that is most likely the case..
\
> I think there is a rift in the LdS church, between
> ultra-orthodox members and traditional members.
> So a bishop from the traditional wing of mormonism
> takes his scouts skinny dipping, and it's no big
> deal until the kid's ultra-orthodox mother finds out
> about it, and then the courts need to become involved
> in order for the mother to force her world view onto
> the unbelieving bishop.
>
> I see this sort of rift everywhere I look in mormonism:
> The caffeine controversy is a classic example.
>
It sure is! I mean, coffee and tea a sin! It is a joke....even alcohol in
moderation is fine. If I don't drink with it, I certainly use it in my
cooking, a spaghetti bolegneise sauce is the best when made with good drop
of red... IMO...The wow has gone too far..it was just a health guide
initially...
John
>
> I have always longed to go skinny dipping with my sweetheart,
> but my mormon taboos scream out against accidentally being
> seen naked so I never have.
You have scriptures and words of prophets that say you cannot swim
naked?? Call for references, please.
> >
> I don't have first hand knowledge about any of the cases,
But you are going to inject your opinion anyway.....
> I think there is a rift in the LdS church, between
> ultra-orthodox members and traditional members.
There is not. You are not even a member, yet you make such sweeping
judgements of millions of people .....
> So a bishop from the traditional wing of mormonism
> takes his scouts skinny dipping,
You made up the scenario. That is called a Straw Man, and not worthy of
refute.
> I see this sort of rift everywhere I look in mormonism:
> The caffeine controversy is a classic example.
There is no caffeine controversy in the LDS Church. Some members may
have an opinion that fits outside the teachings of the prophet, but as
a church, it is well understood what has been taught. Again, you are
not a member, and you do not attend, nor are you privy to what goes on
among 10 million people, yet you sit in judgement, when there is ample
evidence in scriptures that even you accept, which command us not to
judge one another.
I don't understand what your doing here, other than insulting and
judging people.
John
D_Frum...@ndersnat.ch
> As an aside, in recent months in Utah, there have been a number
> of news stories, from various parts of the state, about mormon
> bishops and scout leaders who are being prosecuted for lewdness
> and/or child abuse, because they went skinny dipping with
> their scout troop.
A great big CFR here. I've heard about exactly one such case.
Bill
-------------------------------------------
| That which is highly esteemed among men |
| is abomination in the sight of God. |
| --Luke 16: 15 |
-------------------------------------------
Gerald Fuller
<D_Frum...@ndersnat.ch> wrote in message
news:12oem0a...@news.supernews.com...
> Father of Peace <srm...@absalom.org> wrote:
>
>> As an aside, in recent months in Utah, there have been a number
>> of news stories, from various parts of the state, about mormon
>> bishops and scout leaders who are being prosecuted for lewdness
>> and/or child abuse, because they went skinny dipping with
>> their scout troop.
>
> A great big CFR here. I've heard about exactly one such case.
>
>
> Bill
Hey, Bill,
One quiet little incident, innocent or otherwise, may generate "a number"
of news stories. One news story happens to be "a number" after all. <G>
Gene
Father of Peace
>A great big CFR here.
I bear my testimony that I have read about at least three
LdS scout leaders/bishops in different parts of the
state being charged with lewdness or child abuse
in the last few months.
One at a hot spring in Spanish Fork Canyon.
One at a hot tub in Blacksmith Fork Canyon.
One that didn't list a location.
>I've heard about exactly one such case.
Which only means that I am more widely read than you are.
I regularly read 6 Utah newspapers, and often browse the
online court docket of upcoming cases.
Are frivolous lewdness prosecutions somehow a non-problem
if only one bishop is involved rather than three?
John
Gerald Fuller wrote:
> >> bishops
>>> scout leaders
>>>they
>
> Hey, Bill,
>
> One quiet little incident, innocent or otherwise, may generate "a number"
> of news stories. One news story happens to be "a number" after all. <G>
>
A good point Gene, but there are too many plurals in the accusation for
there to only be a single story :-)
John
Father of Peace
> You have scriptures and words of prophets that say you cannot swim
> naked?? Call for references, please.
My taboo regarding swimming naked is a result of being raised
mormon in a 100% mormon village. Like most modern day
LdS traditions and beliefs the taboo has little to do with
the scriptures or the revealed word of God. I believe that
the actual origin of this taboo is because my mormon
ancestors were converted from Christianity and they
brought many (apostate) ideas with them into mormonism.
Then there is the fear of being prosecuted for lewdness.
There have been quite a few reports in Utah newspapers
in the last few months about LdS bishops and scout
leaders being prosecuted for child abuse or lewdness
because they went skinny dipping with their scout
troop. (My best guess is that the charges are totally
unfounded, and that the guys just went skinny dipping....)
> But you are going to inject your opinion anyway.....
That is who I am and what I do.
> > I think there is a rift in the LdS church, between
> > ultra-orthodox members and traditional members.
> There is not.
I see it everywhere I look in the LdS church.
You have the traditional members who drink coca-cola
at home, but would never dare to bring coca-cola to
a pot luck dinner because of fear of being attacked
by or offensive to the ultra-orthodox members.
You have the traditional members who believe
in letting nonbelievers alone to worship whatever they
like, and then you have the ultra-orthodox members
who work themselves and the neighborhood into
a frenzy to shut down an erotic book store.
You have the traditional members who are
happy to be called mormons, and then you have
the ultra-orthodox members who will never allow
themselves to be called anything other than
a member of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of
Latter-day Saints.
That's just a few examples, but I see such things
everywhere I look among the LdS people.
> You are not even a member,
And you know that because?
Is it because I am willing to look honestly at
the faults of the church? And to write about
what I perceive? Are non members the only
ones that are allowed to point out a flaw in
the church?
> yet you make such sweeping
> judgements of millions of people .....
I write about what I see. I have personally known
tens of thousands of LdS people, and thousands of people
from other mormon faiths. While I don't know every
person that has ever been associated with mormonism,
I have a broad understanding of mormonism and of the
hopes, dreams, and sins of the LdS people. And if
I err in my understanding there are plenty of mormons
around that are more than willing to help me repent.
> > So a bishop from the traditional wing of mormonism
> > takes his scouts skinny dipping,
> You made up the scenario.
I read about it in the Herald Journal less than two months ago.
The bishop took his scout troop to his cabin up Blacksmith
Fork Canyon, and invited the kids to get in the hot tub,
and came out of the bathroom naked while getting in the
hot tub. The newspaper interviewed the bishop's wife who
thinks he is the sweetest man ever and would never
abuse a child. I believe her. I think the charges are
frivolous. Too bad that the Herald Journal will not allow
google to index their archive.
> There is no caffeine controversy in the LDS Church.
I see it as a huge controversy!!!
Perhaps because I am a member who believes that the
WoW never banned caffeine, and neither has any LdS prophet,
but I was married to a woman who felt betrayed whenever she
saw me drinking a coca-cola. Even showing her the passage
in the Church Handbook of Instructions that says caffeine is
not banned did not ease her feelings.
> Some members may
> have an opinion that fits outside the teachings of the prophet,
Which members are outside the teachings of the prophet?
The ones who drink coca-cola or the ones that don't?
> but as a church, it is well understood what has been taught.
What has been taught is not well understood.
Do you understand that caffeine is banned?
Many LdS understand that caffeine has never been banned.
Many LdS understand the use of caffeine is a sin.
> Again, you are not a member,
You have no way of knowing that.
Even when I held a temple recommend I drank coca-cola.
> and you do not attend,
There are always more than a few opportunities for me
to attend for blessings and baptisms of my nieces
and nephews, not to mention the occasional
incognito visit just to gather intelligence info and
food for these posts.
> nor are you privy to what goes on among 10 million people,
I have every reason to believe that the 10 million LdS
that I do not know personally are pretty much the same
as the tens of thousands that I do know.
And based on what we know about LdS activity rates,
chances are pretty good that my opinions are somewhat
in harmony with the opinions of the millions of LdS who
do not attend meetings.
> yet you sit in judgement,
If I did not speak about the sins of the LdS people, then
we would think that we were perfect and we would be
damned: stopped from progressing.
> when there is ample
> evidence in scriptures that even you accept,
> which command us not to judge one another.
I am much too agnostic to believe in scriptures. But
since the LdS believe in scriptures, and since I am
writing to an LdS audience I might as well quote
the LdS scriptures.
> I don't understand what your doing here, other than insulting and
> judging people.
I like to believe that I am teaching mormonism to mormons.
Love,
Absalom
dianaiad
Father of Peace wrote:
> >A great big CFR here.
>
> Which only means that I am more widely read than you are.
> I regularly read 6 Utah newspapers, and often browse the
> online court docket of upcoming cases.
>
> Are frivolous lewdness prosecutions somehow a non-problem
> if only one bishop is involved rather than three?
Is that like my grandfather perusing the obits to see if his is in
there yet?
(trying to get back on topic for the group...)
The thing is, Mormons are people. We are not perfect, we are not even
better than anybody else. Bishops in the CoJCoLDS are as likely as any
other religious leader to screw up. There is no magic armour to keep
them from doing so, save their own character and faith. Once in awhile
one will come along that has neither.
However.
You can't blame the belief system for the actions of those who break
its rules. You can't blame the criminal code for the actions of the guy
that robs a convenience store, and you can't blame Mormonism for the
actions of...even a Bishop...who falls so completely from grace.
Diana
D_Frum...@ndersnat.ch
> I bear my testimony that I have read about at least three
Perhaps you need to review the meaning of the expression "CFR." It
Calls For References, not assertions.
> One at a hot spring in Spanish Fork Canyon.
> One at a hot tub in Blacksmith Fork Canyon.
> One that didn't list a location.
Again, no reference, just assertions. And I note that in your earlier
post, you said,
> As an aside, in recent months in Utah, there have been a number
> of news stories, from various parts of the state, about mormon
> bishops and scout leaders who are being prosecuted for lewdness
"Bishops" means "more than one bishop" to me, at least two. "Scout
leaders" means "more than one scout leader" to me, at least two. Some
number two or greater, plus another number, also two or greater, should be
at least four, possibly more. Suddenly you can't list ANY references at
all, but you want us to accept an assertion of three (no longer four or
more), with an "at least" thrown in to magnify your aspersion.
> Are frivolous lewdness prosecutions somehow a non-problem
> if only one bishop is involved rather than three?
Don't put words into my mouth, thank you. Any such crimes, if proven,
are a problem, but one is definitely LESS of a problem than three.
CFR renewed.
John Q. Public
When I was in Scouts (Non LDS Troop and Post), the kids would
occasionally skinny dip, but the adults were never involved. However, I
remember one trip down a rarely used trial in the Grand Canyon where an
invited adult (Associate Professor from the nearby University-Most of
the Leaders were professors at this University) decided to hike nude
down there trail. Nice guy, but it took us all by surprise. Later, this
adult was telling us Scouts how to make marijuana brownies. Oh the
memories from Scouts, however, LDS or not, I would not even try the
skinny dipping with my scouts.
Regarding Adult skinny dipping, I had a LDS friend (down in southern
Ca) who liked to hang out at the local nudist beach. When he got
married, he said it was a long process before he got his LDS wife to
partake with this at the beach.
I remember dating a daughter of a local Stake President who once
suggested we head down to the local nude beach and partake of the sun..
She was serious, however, I couldn't. While I wouldn't mind have
seeing her naked, I think I was afraid of the temptation.
Father of Peace
dianaiad wrote:
> and you can't blame Mormonism for the
> actions of...even a Bishop...who falls so completely from grace.
That's the thing. I am not blaming the mormon bishops who
go skinny dipping with the scout troop. I think that they are
(generally) not guilty of child abuse or lewdness.
If I were to pass out any blame for prosecuting the bishop
it would be placed on the shoulders of hyper-orthodox members
that don't understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. Being naked,
even in public, is not inherently abusive or lewd.
The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson
> Are frivolous lewdness prosecutions somehow a non-problem
> if only one bishop is involved rather than three?
I just want to go on record to say that I don't think anyone should be
prosecuted for frivolous lewdness.
Craig, thinking frivolity should be covered under the Bill of Rights
Gerald Fuller
"John Q. Public" <johnnie_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:12oh7f6...@news.supernews.com...
Snip
> I remember dating a daughter of a local Stake President who once
> suggested we head down to the local nude beach and partake of the sun..
> She was serious, however, I couldn't. While I wouldn't mind have
> seeing her naked, I think I was afraid of the temptation.
Maybe you were afraid you would not tempt her very much. Shame on me again!
Gene
Gerald Fuller
<D_Frum...@ndersnat.ch> wrote in message
news:12oh67l...@news.supernews.com...
> Father of Peace <srm...@absalom.org> wrote:
>> >A great big CFR here.
>
>> I bear my testimony that I have read about at least three
>
> Perhaps you need to review the meaning of the expression "CFR." It
> Calls For References, not assertions.
>
>> One at a hot spring in Spanish Fork Canyon.
>> One at a hot tub in Blacksmith Fork Canyon.
>> One that didn't list a location.
Well, that certainly is "a number". Of course it is not a large number, and
it does not even assert that there was any lewd behavior involved unless
appearing in the garb that God puts us in to introduce us into mortality is
lewdness.
You know, if he is still alive I should accuse my college swimming teacher
in 1949 of lewdness. He had the class swim in the nude except for swimming
caps! I think most of us would have appreciated it more at the time if it
had been coed. (Shame on me!)
Snip
Which is involved here, modesty, chastity or reverence?
Gerald Fuller
"John" <ews...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:12ogkur...@news.supernews.com...
Yes. I agree. More than one story, but maybe based on one incident!
Gene
Paula
wrote:
>Is that like my grandfather perusing the obits to see if his is in
>there yet?
There is a cartoon up on the bulletin board at work that shows two old
women rocking on the porch. The caption says, "I'm getting so old I'm
afraid all of my friends in heaven are going to think I didn't make
it!" Maybe he'll find out he's in the obits just to have to worry
about which kingdom he landed in. ;)
Gerald Fuller
"The Poster Formerly Known as Craig Olson" <craig...@olsonhome.com> wrote
in message news:12oil14...@news.supernews.com...
Is frivolous lewdness the same as lewd frivolity? If not, which is the more
preferable or more objectionable as the case may be?
Gerald Fuller
"Gerald Fuller" <gfull...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:12oiott...@news.supernews.com...
>
> "John Q. Public" <johnnie_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:12oh7f6...@news.supernews.com...
>
>
> Snip
>
>> I remember dating a daughter of a local Stake President who once
>> suggested we head down to the local nude beach and partake of the sun..
>> She was serious, however, I couldn't. While I wouldn't mind have
>> seeing her naked, I think I was afraid of the temptation.
I don't know why I missed this before. Probably half asleep. But the local
Stake President actual suggested you and she (or was it you and he) head to
the local nude beach and partake of the sun? Was it the beach that was nude
at the time? I assume it was not night-time.
Man, I need to get a life!