Naive question regarding a man, Sidi Shaykh Muhammad al-Jamal ar-Rifa'i as-Shadhuli...
Tom Kelleher
regarding Islam...which in fact is the reason I am posting this question in
the first place. My mother has recently become a follower of a man named
Sidi, a Sufi holy man as I understand, and purely out of concern for her I
am trying to find out a little more about him.
In full his name and title (please forgive if the word "title" is
inappropriate) as I found it at http://www.sufimaster.org/index.htm seems to
be "Shaykh, al-Qutb al-Gawth, Sidi Shaykh Muhammad al-Jamal ar-Rifa'i
as-Shadhuli the Guide of the Shadhdhuliyya path, the sufi path founded by
Shaykh Abu-l-Hasan as-Shadhuli in Egypt in the thirteenth century AD."
My mother has several times in the past become a follower of charismatic
men -- some of whom turned out to be charlatans. I am not accusing Sidi of
being such, and would be happy if she has found a leader worthy of her
devotion. But I am ignorant of him, and would hope to collect here your
thoughts, your praise, or your concerns about the man and his work. My
mother has moved to a poor and struggling commune in nothern California to
join a group of other American Sufis (most are 18 to 25 years old) and as I
understand it, they contribute large amounts of money to Sidi's work and
causes. Again, if his work and causes are sound ones I will only be glad to
hear it. But my mother suffered through 20+ years of crushing debt after
her last brush with a "spiritual leader" and within a year of getting out of
debt announced she was retiring and moving to this commune. The commune
produces no income and seems to survive off the donations of the
members...and the translation of the Sufi name given her by Sidi is
"Generous." Altogether, this frightens me.
Also, at the same time she entered this community word was passed around
excitedly among its members of an offshore investment opportunity. "Invest
$1000 and you are guaranteed to get your money back in 13 weeks. Leave it
in, and every 13 weeks you will make it back again." The members signed up
en masse, and each was also asked by Ibrahim (the commune's local leader) to
invest an additional $1000 with the dividends going to the commune. I read
over the information provided, and it had every trapping of a "Ponzi
Scheme" -- a kind of investment fraud where the early subscribers make huge
profit and then it fizzles out, leaving most people poorer and the original
"schemer" much richer. We warned my mother that this was almost certainly a
Ponzi Scheme, and in time, it fizzled out exactly as predicted. But she
ignored our cautions and warnings saying that Ibrahim and Sidi had "looked"
at the investment psychically (that is the word she used) and deemed it safe
for the coming two years. It fizzled out within five months. These young
people and my mother lost thousands of dollars each. My mother continues to
deny that it could possibly have been a Ponzi Scheme, because it had been
okay'ed by Ibrahim and Sidi.
So my level of concern for her is high. Having no other point of reference
than past family history, I worry that my mother is repeating it. But these
worries may be unwarranted, and again, I would be relieved to hear objective
and unambiguous praise for the man.
Please do not feel I mean in any way to be derogatory or inflammatory
towards the man, the Sufi faith, or Islam. I mean to make no statement here
other than that I love my mother and am concerned for her. Being raised in
America by an Irish Catholic father and a Protestant mother, I am simply out
of my element and trying to gather understanding.
Thank you all in advance,
- Tom
Fariduddien Rice
On 31 Jul 1999, Tom Kelleher wrote:
> I am new to this newsgroup and its discussions, and claim no expertise
> regarding Islam...which in fact is the reason I am posting this question in
> the first place. My mother has recently become a follower of a man named
> Sidi, a Sufi holy man as I understand, and purely out of concern for her I
> am trying to find out a little more about him.
>
> In full his name and title (please forgive if the word "title" is
> inappropriate) as I found it at http://www.sufimaster.org/index.htm seems to
> be "Shaykh, al-Qutb al-Gawth, Sidi Shaykh Muhammad al-Jamal ar-Rifa'i
> as-Shadhuli the Guide of the Shadhdhuliyya path, the sufi path founded by
> Shaykh Abu-l-Hasan as-Shadhuli in Egypt in the thirteenth century AD."
I don't know anything directly about this Shaykh, apart from what I have
read on their web pages....
The Shadhili tariqa is a well-known Sufi order, and it is true, it goes
back at least to the 13th Century. I think that's a good thing. :)
The way most Sufi orders are organized, there are many, many branches of
most Sufi orders, and Shaykh Muhammad al-Jamal's branch would be one
branch out of probably hundreds, or maybe even thousands, of branches of
the Shadhili tariqa around the world.
I noticed that there is a web page on their web site giving the background
of Shaykh Muhammad al-Jamal, at
http://www.sufimaster.org/about2.htm
If what is written there is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), it
sounds from the description like he is a widely respected person,
particularly in the Palestinian community. I notice that the page says
that he is the head of the Sufi Council in Jerusalem, and it sounds
>from the web page like he is connected in some way with the Masjid al-Aqsa
(the al-Aqsa Mosque), the third holiest mosque in Islam (after the mosques
in Mecca and Medina).
Also, the web page says
"When the peace talks began between the Israelis and the PLO, the
Shaykh was one of the members chosen by Arafat to represent the
Palestinians in the peace talks."
If this is true, then this would suggest he is very highly respected in
the Palestinian community....
However, of course I am only basing this on what they are saying on their
web page. But if it is true, it sounds like very good credentials.
[...]
> My
> mother has moved to a poor and struggling commune in nothern California to
> join a group of other American Sufis (most are 18 to 25 years old) and as I
> understand it, they contribute large amounts of money to Sidi's work and
> causes. Again, if his work and causes are sound ones I will only be glad to
> hear it. But my mother suffered through 20+ years of crushing debt after
> her last brush with a "spiritual leader" and within a year of getting out of
> debt announced she was retiring and moving to this commune. The commune
> produces no income and seems to survive off the donations of the
> members...and the translation of the Sufi name given her by Sidi is
> "Generous." Altogether, this frightens me.
I only have a limited experience regarding this.... I am a member of a
different Sufi order.... My impression is that it is not unusual within
Sufi organizations (as within other organizations) to ask for
some kind of financial support from members, though this should not be
more than they could bear, of course. This is to help cover expenses
(whether to help purchase buildings, or rent halls, or help pay for the
Shaykh's travel if the group is very spread out geographically, and
other related expenses as well). Your mother should not go into debt to
try to support the Shaykh's projects, I would think.... I hope that they
aren't asking her to do that. However, to spend some of your money on
good projects is considered to be a good thing Islamically.
[...Description of possible "Ponzi Scheme" - or pyramid scheme -
deleted...]
Regarding this aspect, from your description, it sounds like the
"investment" in the scheme may have been Ibrahim's initiative, rather than
Shaykh Muhammad al-Jamal's....
It doesn't sound (from your description) like anyone from within the group
initiated the scheme, so it sounds like they all were victims, due to a
naivite about these kind of scams. I don't think this means that the
people in the group are bad, only that maybe they are a bit naive
about pyramid scams....
>From your description, it sounds like their intentions were good, that is,
to help support the group through the returns from investment. However,
they did not recognize it as a scam...
By the way, to my knowledge, some Sufi groups I think do help support
themselves financially by the group having some investments, and using the
returns on those investments to financially support the group's
activities. So I think their overall idea seems sound, it is just
unfortunate (from what I can gather from your description) that they did
not recognize that what they thought was an investment opportunity, was
really a scam.... Again, I don't think this means that they are bad
people, rather it sounds like they were all innocent victims (including
Ibrahim) of whoever started the pyramid scam which they bought into.
With some better investment advice, they hopefully would do better.
Lastly, Tom, you might want to try asking your questions on the "tariqas"
discussion list. You can find details of how to join "tariqas" on the web
page
That list is more focused on Sufism than soc.religion.islam is, and so
there might be some people there who know about Shaykh Muhammad al-Jamal
more directly.
May God guide and bless both you and your mother.... :)
Peace,
Fariduddien
__________________________________________________________________________
Fariduddien Rice Email : farid @ stormcity.com
http://homepages.haqq.com.au/salam/
__________________________________________________________________________
mar...@vom.com
"Tom Kelleher" <Kell...@Viconet.com> wrote:
>I am new to this newsgroup and its discussions, and claim no expertise
>regarding Islam...which in fact is the reason I am posting this question in
>the first place. My mother has recently become a follower of a man named
>Sidi, a Sufi holy man as I understand, and purely out of concern for her I
>am trying to find out a little more about him.
The title "Sidi" is a contraction, if I am correct, of "sayyid," which
means something like "noble."
>In full his name and title (please forgive if the word "title" is
>inappropriate) as I found it at http://www.sufimaster.org/index.htm seems to
>be "Shaykh, al-Qutb al-Gawth, Sidi Shaykh Muhammad al-Jamal ar-Rifa'i
>as-Shadhuli the Guide of the Shadhdhuliyya path, the sufi path founded by
>Shaykh Abu-l-Hasan as-Shadhuli in Egypt in the thirteenth century AD."
The title is a bit high-flying. I think this is a man whom I have seen
a number of times, and I have a number of friends who follow him. I
like my friends more than I like him, and, in general, his followers
would be good people. He, on the other hand, has long been followed by
tales of the abuse of women followers. I have personally known some of
these women, some of them very well; so while each of the individual
comments which have been made about him do not rise to the level of
the proof required in Islam for sexual misconduct, certainly caution
would be in order.
He is a showman, using tricks which would be well-known to any
hypnotist to impress his followers, such as what is known as automatic
writing. Of course, he calls it someone else.
>My mother has several times in the past become a follower of charismatic
>men -- some of whom turned out to be charlatans. I am not accusing Sidi of
>being such, and would be happy if she has found a leader worthy of her
>devotion.
I wish I could reassure the inquirer. I can say that, other than the
matter of the possible abuse of young and beautiful women, he is not
known for robbing his followers; if have seen him, however, solicit
funds for charitable causes, causes which he controls and which might
indirectly benefit him. But this is not terribly worrisome in itself.
>But I am ignorant of him, and would hope to collect here your
>thoughts, your praise, or your concerns about the man and his work. My
>mother has moved to a poor and struggling commune in nothern California to
>join a group of other American Sufis (most are 18 to 25 years old) and as I
>understand it, they contribute large amounts of money to Sidi's work and
>causes.
I've been moving around a bit and do not know of this community. I'd
be interested to know; I *might* know some of the people associated
with it.
>Again, if his work and causes are sound ones I will only be glad to
>hear it. But my mother suffered through 20+ years of crushing debt after
>her last brush with a "spiritual leader" and within a year of getting out of
>debt announced she was retiring and moving to this commune. The commune
>produces no income and seems to survive off the donations of the
>members...and the translation of the Sufi name given her by Sidi is
>"Generous." Altogether, this frightens me.
The name "Karima" would be common; again, this is not, by itself, a
cause for concern.
>Also, at the same time she entered this community word was passed around
>excitedly among its members of an offshore investment opportunity. "Invest
>$1000 and you are guaranteed to get your money back in 13 weeks. Leave it
>in, and every 13 weeks you will make it back again."
This is *very* worrisome.
>The members signed up
>en masse, and each was also asked by Ibrahim (the commune's local leader) to
>invest an additional $1000 with the dividends going to the commune. I read
>over the information provided, and it had every trapping of a "Ponzi
>Scheme" -- a kind of investment fraud where the early subscribers make huge
>profit and then it fizzles out, leaving most people poorer and the original
>"schemer" much richer. We warned my mother that this was almost certainly a
>Ponzi Scheme, and in time, it fizzled out exactly as predicted.
Yes, this was predictable. Now that the son's prediction has proven
true, has the mother learned anything?
>But she
>ignored our cautions and warnings saying that Ibrahim and Sidi had "looked"
>at the investment psychically (that is the word she used) and deemed it safe
>for the coming two years.
The device I mentioned above, automatic writing, was used for
divination on the occasions I saw it. It was one of the more
embarassing displays I have ever seen among "sufis" in the United
States.
>It fizzled out within five months. These young
>people and my mother lost thousands of dollars each. My mother continues to
>deny that it could possibly have been a Ponzi Scheme, because it had been
>okay'ed by Ibrahim and Sidi.
The term "denial" would be a good translation into English of "kufr,"
which is less accurately translated as "disbelief." It might be
suggested to the mother than her refusal to recognise the truth when
it is plainly in front of her is actually the mark of those who have
gone astray and who are on the path to hell. If her intentions are
good, they might protect her, but I think you know the saying about
the road to hell and what paves it.
>So my level of concern for her is high. Having no other point of reference
>than past family history, I worry that my mother is repeating it. But these
>worries may be unwarranted, and again, I would be relieved to hear objective
>and unambiguous praise for the man.
As I said, there are some people I respect who follow him. But I also
think that these friends are simply overlooking his weaknesses, which
is in some respects praiseworthy and in others very dangerous.
>Please do not feel I mean in any way to be derogatory or inflammatory
>towards the man, the Sufi faith, or Islam. I mean to make no statement here
>other than that I love my mother and am concerned for her. Being raised in
>America by an Irish Catholic father and a Protestant mother, I am simply out
>of my element and trying to gather understanding.
I would encourage the mother to broaden her contacts within Islam.
Groups like the one described tend to be isolated and naive, believing
that they have the truth and others are misled and unable to
understand the inner secrets. If she widens her point of view, she
might be able to find her way beyond these traps on the path.
AbdulraHman Lomax
mar...@vom.com
P.O. Box 690
El Verano, CA 95433
USA
ali9...@my-deja.com
mar...@vom.com wrote:
> The title is a bit high-flying. I think this is a man whom I have seen
> a number of times, and I have a number of friends who follow him. I
> like my friends more than I like him, and, in general, his followers
> would be good people. He, on the other hand, has long been followed by
> tales of the abuse of women followers. I have personally known some of
> these women, some of them very well; so while each of the individual
> comments which have been made about him do not rise to the level of
> the proof required in Islam for sexual misconduct, certainly caution
> would be in order.
>
> He is a showman, using tricks which would be well-known to any
> hypnotist to impress his followers, such as what is known as automatic
> writing. Of course, he calls it someone else.
salaam,
If the "comments" (accusations) made against him do not rise to the
level of the proof required in Islam for sexual misconduct why are you
assassinating his character? You are a muslim right? Then do you not
believe that the proof required by Islam is sufficient and correct?
If so why are you crossing those boundaries??? It just doesn't make
sense.
It is like me saying, "Mr. Marjan has been accused of lying on this
newsgroup and though those comments about him do not rise to the level
of the proof required in Islam for assertaining ones truthfulness it is
advisable to not believe everything Mr. Marjan says because I
personally know people who told me that Mr. Marjan lied to them."
[24:15] Behold, ye received it on your tongues, and said out of your
mouths things of which ye had no knowledge; and ye thought it to be a
light matter, while it was most serious in the sight of Allah.
[24:16] And why did ye not, when ye heard it, say? - "It is not right
of us to speak of this: Glory to Allah! this is a most serious
slander!"
[24:17] Allah doth admonish you, that ye may never repeat such
(conduct), if ye are (true) Believers.
[49:11]O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: It
may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some
women laugh at others: It may be that the (latter are better than the
(former): Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each
other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting
wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do
not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.
[49:12] O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for
suspicion in some cases is a sin: And spy not on each other behind
their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead
brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah: For Allah is Oft-
Returning, Most Merciful.
Peace
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
mar...@vom.com
but responded to only one of them.
ali9...@my-deja.com wrote:
[quoting me:]
>> The title is a bit high-flying. I think this is a man whom I have seen
>> a number of times, and I have a number of friends who follow him. I
>> like my friends more than I like him, and, in general, his followers
>> would be good people. He, on the other hand, has long been followed by
>> tales of the abuse of women followers. I have personally known some of
>> these women, some of them very well; so while each of the individual
>> comments which have been made about him do not rise to the level of
>> the proof required in Islam for sexual misconduct, certainly caution
>> would be in order.
>>
>> He is a showman, using tricks which would be well-known to any
>> hypnotist to impress his followers, such as what is known as automatic
>> writing. Of course, he calls it someone else.
>If the "comments" (accusations) made against him do not rise to the
>level of the proof required in Islam for sexual misconduct why are you
>assassinating his character? You are a muslim right? Then do you not
>believe that the proof required by Islam is sufficient and correct?
The proof required by Islam is necessary to punish for the crime of
fornication or adultery. This standard is very high. However, such a
charge is not being levelled here. Rather a person concerned about the
safety of his mother is asking regarding the character of the shaykh.
As I said, I knew some of the women involved well; I was engaged to be
married to one of them. I have no reason to believe that the story she
told me about her personal experience was false; but I am not
repeating that story, only indicating that caution would be in order.
In fact, the caution that is suggested would be simply the norm in a
Muslim society, that is, a woman should not be secluded with a
non-hamram man, even if he is reputedly a pious shaykh. It is only the
naivete of some Western women regarding these things that makes the
warning necessary.
There is, in my view, a widespread error regarding the matter of
charges of fornication and adultery. To testify to one's personal
experience is not and should not be reprehensible or punishable, even
if one does not provide further witnesses or evidence. To *conclude*
and *charge* from that experience the crime of fornication or adultery
without providing four witnesses is, as I am sure Ali knows, a
punishable offence in itself.
One of the consequences of this error is that women have reportedly
been punished in some jurisdictions for asserting that they were
raped. This response to such a situation is, in my view, an enormity,
a terrible miscarriage of justice, unfounded in anything except a
narrow and literalist interpretation of Islamic law and precedent.
The Qur'anic injunction on which the punishment for false witness is
based is explicitly regarding false charges against women. It is only
by analogy that it is sometimes extended to include charges against
men.
In my view the necessities of the protection of the community, and
especially women, outweigh the normal reservations protecting
reputation. If the shaykh were not a public figure, I would have said
nothing.
I will also note that the time during which the incidents allegedly
took place was more than twenty years ago. It is well possible that,
even if the accounts were true, there is no longer any present danger.
Nevertheless, a woman approaching any Muslim teacher should know that
for this teacher to touch her in *any* way is somewhat suspect, and
for him to touch her intimately, or attempt this, is a clear sign that
he is misguided. Unless, of course, he has first lawfully married her.
>If so why are you crossing those boundaries??? It just doesn't make
>sense.
As I said, I believe I have not crossed the boundary established by
Allah.
>It is like me saying, "Mr. Marjan has been accused of lying on this
>newsgroup and though those comments about him do not rise to the level
>of the proof required in Islam for assertaining ones truthfulness it is
>advisable to not believe everything Mr. Marjan says because I
>personally know people who told me that Mr. Marjan lied to them."
(1) It is advisable not to believe everything I say. Investigate and
be cautious.
(2) If 'Ali, in fact, personally knows such people and knows their
character, he may make such a report. However, note that to say that a
person "lied" involves knowledge of intent; it is not sufficient to
know that a statement was false. If the reports included sufficient
information to reasonably establish that my intent was deception, then
'Ali would be within his rights to make the report. Otherwise he would
be passing on only the *conclusion* regarding my character, which
would be slander.
Br. 'Ali did not comment on my remarks regarding the use of "tricks"
by the Shaykh. I had in mind "automatic writing," that is, the Shaykh
had a volunteer hold a pen over a piece of paper. The Shaykh then
asked that an angel present write through the hand and pen of the
volunteer, and he recited various Qur'aanic verses. I saw him do this
with a number of volunteers, on more than one occasion. Once, when no
writing was appearing, he began to berate the "angel," demanding that
he not "waste time."
Various other persons present were encouraged to ask questions, which
were answered through the writing.
ali9...@my-deja.com
flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from
them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,
[24:5]Except those who repent after this and act aright, for surely
Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[24:19)Surely (as for) those who love that scandal should circulate
respecting those who believe, they shall have a grievous chastisement
in this world and the hereafter; and Allah knows, while you do not
know.
salaam,
the above verse should suffice as advise. I'm sorry Brother Marjan but
I still believe what you did is wrong.
if you don't have the witnesses do back up what you have said you have
no right to publicly tarnish the man's character; it is a sin, a big
one at that.
i remember reading that once the Prophet (saw) was talking to his wife
Safia and one of his companions walked by and saw him talking with
her. The Prophet actually called his companion to come back and told
him, "So and so, she is my wife." The companion bashfully said, "Oh
Messenger of Allah, how could I ever suspect you?" The Prophet replied
that the devil flows in the veins of the children of Adam as blood
flows through his veins.
also that no man and woman (who are not married) meet alone but Satan
is the third among them.
also the Imam 'Ali (as) mentions that anyone who puts himself in a
place of suspicion then he is suspected, he should blame no one but
himself.
for example if I need to make a telephone call and I walk into a Bar to
use their phone, then I am seen by people and a rumor spreads that I am
a drunkard, I should not blame anyone for that except myself.
i mean no offense towards you but i believe that your ex-almost-wife
lied to you.
>From experience, I have found that Islamic religious scholars are
particularly careful not to put themselves in places where their
character may be suspected (like being alone with a woman that is not
their wife.)
By God, if you really had to advise the questioner couldn't you have
done it privately instead of publicly???
After reading the above verse 24:19, I would hate to be in your
position on the Day of Judgement.
salaam,