Yusef/Joseph in the Quran and the Bible
Abdalla Alothman
Both, the Bible and the Quran mention Prophet Yusef's (Joseph)
dream about the Sun and the Moon, and eleven stars bowing
to him.
(Remember) when Yusuf (Joseph) said to his father: "O my
father! Verily, I saw (in a dream) eleven stars and the sun
and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves to me."
[Quran 12:4]
"Then he (Joseph) had another dream, and he told it to his
brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this
time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."
[Genesis 37:9]
The Quran mentions this dream at the beginning of Surat
Yusef, and shows how it was fulfilled at the end of the story.
The Bible, however, mentions the dream, but never shows that
it was a fulfilled prophecy. The reason why the Bible is not
able to fulfill this dream is due to an error, where the mother
of Yusef (as) supposedly died when she bore Benyameen.
"And as she was having great difficulty in childbirth, the
midwife said to her, "Don't be afraid, for you have another
son." As she breathed her last--for she was dying--she named
her son Ben-Oni. But his father named him Benjamin. So Rachel
died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem).
[Genesis 35:17-19]
Rachel is the mother of Joseph and Benjamin; she died two
chapters before Joseph had his dream.
The Quran never says that she died, the proof for that is at
the end of the story where Yusef raises both of his parents
on his throne.
"And he raised his parents to the throne and they fell down
before him prostrate. And he said: "O my father! This is the
interpretation of my dream aforetime! My Lord has made it come
true! He was indeed good to me, when He took me out of the prison,
and brought you (all here) out of the bedouin-life, after Shaitan
(Satan) had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Certainly, my
Lord is the Most Courteous and Kind unto whom He will. Truly He!
Only He is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise." [Quran 12:100]
If the Christians believe that Joseph was a prophet, then they
should realize that their Bible writers make a mistake when they
claim that Joseph's mother died before the adventures of Joseph
happened. The Quran ends this kind of falsehood which might have
been injected to the Bible intentionally or unintentionally, and
corrects the Bible:
1) Joseph's dream was a perfect prophecy.
2) His mother never died after giving birth to Benyameen.
3) The dream was fulfilled when his father (The Sun) and
his mother (the Moon) and his eleven brothers (stars)
bowed down to him.
Therefore, the Quran compliments and corrects the Bible
errors. Joseph's dream is nothing but one of many other
examples.
Salam,
Abdalla.
--
___________________________________________________________
|Abdalla S. Alothman mailto:ada...@blueskyweb.com |
|------------------- ----------------------------- |
|"And the servants of the Beneficent are they who walk on |
|the earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address |
|them, they say: Peace." [Quran 25:63] |
|----------------------------------------------------------|
|Really, have you read the Quran? |
|http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/naeindex.htm |
|__________________________________________________________|
ADR
>dream about the Sun and the Moon, and eleven stars bowing
>to him.
It was simply a tale about living in exile and being accepted by a different
nation. The story of Joseph and Moses and purposely juxta-positioned and
mirrored to show that a poor man can be accepted by a noble and vice versa.
They are not historical stories, but tales, both of them in a line of myths
in which the oldest we find is the Egyptian Tale of Sinuhe.
>The Quran mentions this dream at the beginning of Surat
>Yusef, and shows how it was fulfilled at the end of the story.
>The Bible, however, mentions the dream, but never shows that
>it was a fulfilled prophecy. The reason why the Bible is not
>able to fulfill this dream is due to an error.
How can the Bible make an error about it's own story?
>Rachel is the mother of Joseph and Benjamin; she died two
>chapters before Joseph had his dream.
>
>The Quran never says that she died, the proof for that is at
>the end of the story where Yusef raises both of his parents
>on his throne.
So then the Quran is wrong about a Bible story. Get it?
>If the Christians believe that Joseph was a prophet, then they
>should realize that their Bible writers make a mistake when they
>claim that Joseph's mother died before the adventures of Joseph
>happened.
You mean you are trying to convert others again by manipulating them.
>The Quran ends this kind of falsehood which might have
>been injected to the Bible intentionally or unintentionally, and
>corrects the Bible:
The Quran corrects the Bible about the Bible? Very strange.
>1) Joseph's dream was a perfect prophecy.
It was a Bible myth.
>2) His mother never died after giving birth to Benyameen.
She's a Bible character and she died the Bible way.
>Therefore, the Quran compliments and corrects the Bible
>errors. Joseph's dream is nothing but one of many other
>examples.
And Jesus was born under a palm tree? Where did the Quran get that from? By
the way, I've got something you might like to look into. How old is the
oldest manuscript of the Quran found to date? Are there numerals used on the
pages derived from Brahmi script? If so, now how old is that Quran because
the Arabs only got those numerals in the ninth century.
MGhounem
hello ADR,
God wrote the Bible and the Qur'an, when humans changed the Bible, God sent the
Qur'an to correct those mistakes, here is a small list of some of the
Corrections made in the Bible by the Qur'an:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/koran.html
the Beautiful thing about the Qur'an is that it is plain Truth for those who
look, the Bible, due to human insertions, made some obvious scientifical
mistakes, then prior to this scientifical contradiction being evidenced, the
Qur'an, centuries before billion dollar machines could prove the Truth, stated
the facts, facts which Bible editors mis-wrote.
>Are there numerals used on the
>pages derived from Brahmi script? If so, now how old is that Quran because
>the Arabs only got those numerals in the ninth century.
Using pagan resources again? were you there? what proof do you have that the
Arabs did not have those numbers in the 7th century?
Peace
mar...@vom.com
"ADR" <a.dall...@virgin.net> wrote:
>>Both, the Bible and the Quran mention Prophet Yusef's (Joseph)
>>dream about the Sun and the Moon, and eleven stars bowing
>>to him.
[...]
>They are not historical stories, but tales, both of them in a line of myths
>in which the oldest we find is the Egyptian Tale of Sinuhe.
At the outset, this establishes ADR as an asserted non-believer in the
historical authenticity of the stories in both the Bible and the
Qur'aan. As an aside, I will mention that my own position is that some
of these accounts, to some degree or other, may not exactly reflect
historical events (I am certain of this with regard to minor details,
such as the precise choice of words in conversations), but that they
are true in the sense of fulfilling their purpose, which is to remind
and warn and give good news. Toward that end, stories which were
well-known to the people receiving the revelation were used, just as
language known to them was used.
Revelation has always taken place in the language of the people, and
that language includes collectively understood symbols.
>>The Quran mentions this dream at the beginning of Surat
>>Yusef, and shows how it was fulfilled at the end of the story.
>>The Bible, however, mentions the dream, but never shows that
>>it was a fulfilled prophecy. The reason why the Bible is not
>>able to fulfill this dream is due to an error.
>
>How can the Bible make an error about it's own story?
I am not going to assert that there is an "error" in the Bible, only
that the account in the Bible seems to be, to a mild degree,
internally inconsistent.
ADR goes on to simply assert that the Bible is true and that the error
is in the Qur'aan, but he presents no evidence.
Certainly he does not address the issue of Joseph's dream as a
prophecy, fulfilled in the Qur'aanic account and not in the Biblical
one.
[...]
>The Quran corrects the Bible about the Bible? Very strange.
At the root of ADR's puzzlement is an assumption that the story
belongs to the Bible and originated with it. No, the proposal is made
that the Qur'aan corrects the Bible with regard to (1) an historical
event or (2) a mythical story known prior to its incorporation in the
Bible. This is not so strange, unless one believes in the literal
inerrancy of the Bible; as ADR does not accept the historical accuracy
of the Bible, it is merely his own thought process which is strange.
He repeats this:
>>1) Joseph's dream was a perfect prophecy.
>
>It was a Bible myth.
Now, it is highly unlikely that the first appearance of this story was
in the writing of the relevant text; rather it was -- I would say
certainly -- a well-known story; in that sense, a myth. But a tribal
myth, not a "Bible" myth; it only became biblical when it was written
into a book. (I am not addressing here the issue of revelation and my
remarks should not be taken as an assertion of human authorship for
either the Bible or Qur'aan.)
[...]
>>Therefore, the Quran compliments and corrects the Bible
>>errors. Joseph's dream is nothing but one of many other
>>examples.
>
>And Jesus was born under a palm tree? Where did the Quran get that from?
Perhaps from God?
To respond objectively would require a knowledge of paleobotany which
I do not possess; and in addition we would need to know both the
location and season of the birth of Jesus, AS.
>the way, I've got something you might like to look into. How old is the
>oldest manuscript of the Quran found to date? Are there numerals used on the
>pages derived from Brahmi script? If so, now how old is that Quran because
>the Arabs only got those numerals in the ninth century.
Gosh, he really got us there! :-)
Seriously, it does not take a rocket scientist to understand that the
appearance of these numeral in early ms. of the Qur'aan would be
strange indeed, and, in fact, there are no numerals at all in the
earliest manuscripts.
May we ask why ADR did not realize that we know when the Arabs got the
numbers from the east only by when they appear in Arabic manuscripts
and that if these numbers had appeared in the earliest manuscripts,
then the date of acquisition would have been pushed back to the time
of their appearance or before?
There are no numerals on the original pages of the Tashkent ms., which
is probably prior to 700 CE. When you see numbers on the pages of the
common publication of this ms, they are numbers which have been added
to copies, first by the Russian Pissaref in 1905, or to other later
copies, for ease of reference.
In fact, it was only relatively recently that any numerals at all were
used in copies of the Qur'aan. I looked in a book of old Qur'aanic
manuscript pages and none of them had any numerals.
AbdulraHman Lomax
mar...@vom.com
P.O. Box 690
El Verano, CA 95433
USA
ADR
>used in copies of the Qur'aan. I looked in a book of old Qur'aanic
>manuscript pages and none of them had any numerals.
So was Allah incapable of using any form of numerals then? All these
scientific miracles are void then if the Quran is not aware of numerals in
the first place (The Quran is void of divinity anyway since the prophets and
Allah never existed int he first place).
Said Ramadan
mgho...@aol.com (MGhounem) wrote:
> God wrote the Bible and the Qur'an, when humans changed
> the Bible, God sent the Qur'an to correct those mistakes,
Or, maybe God sent down the Tanach (called Old Testament by Christians)
and the Christians and the Jews copied their religions from it! Or
maybe, God sent down the bible, and the Muslims changed it, and called
their revision Al-Quran! Do you see how anyone can make wild, and
baseless claims? I could just as easily say that the Quran is changed.
However, lets focus on what you said: "God wrote the Bible and the
Qur'an, when humans changed the Bible". Which ayat says that?
> here is a small list of some of the
> Corrections made in the Bible by the Qur'an:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/koran.html
Yes, an interesting page indeed. It touches on the ongoing debate
between belivers of Ha-Torah, and those who believe in evolution. How
does the Quran save the bible in terms of the history of creation? What
is the date used by Muslims who do not use the current Christian
calendar year of 1999????? Go ask your Imam how long ago the world was
created.... he'll tell you about 6,000 years. So if Darwin was right,
then not only is the book of Genesis wrong, but the Quran is wrong as
well. Please don't try to pretend that Darwinism and Western Science are
compatible with the Quran's version of history, creation, and the world.
Does the Quran also say man evolved from a chimp?
> the Beautiful thing about the Qur'an is that it is plain
> Truth for those who look, the Bible, due to human insertions,
> made some obvious scientifical mistakes,
Again, could you please show me where the Quran says there were human
insertions in the Bible? Does the Quran say this, or are you coming to
this conclusion on your own?
> then prior to this scientifical contradiction being
> evidenced, the Qur'an, centuries before billion dollar
> machines could prove the Truth, stated
> the facts, facts which Bible editors mis-wrote.
Well, now that we have these billion dollar machines, I wonder if we can
assume the following ayat to be a scientific contradiction which the
Quran editors mis-wrote:
{al-Kahf 18:86} Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he
found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We
said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
Well, thanks to our billion dollar machines, we now know the Sun does
not revolve around the earth, and does not set in any muddy spring, it
does not set anywhere on earth!
Also, in light of our billion dollar machines, let us look at the
following ayat concerning Solomon...
{an-Naml 27:18-19} Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an
ant exclaimed: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies
crush you, unperceiving. And (Solomon) smiled, laughing at her speech,
and said: My Lord, arouse me to be thankful for Thy favour wherewith
Thou hast favoured me and my parents, and to do good that shall be
pleasing unto Thee, and include me in (the number of) Thy righteous
slaves.
I wonder, did Solomon smell what she said? I ask because billion dollar
machines have taught us that ants do not use sound to communicate, but
rather chemicle odor (i.e. smell).
> >Are there numerals used on the
> >pages derived from Brahmi script?
> >If so, now how old is that Quran because
> >the Arabs only got those numerals in the ninth century.
>
> Using pagan resources again? were you there? what proof do
> you have that the Arabs did not have those numbers in the
> 7th century?
Oh that's rich. Dispute common and indisputable knowledge. So are you
saying that Arabs did have these numbers prior to the ninth century?
They didn't. You're just badly misinformed, or possibly a bit stubborn.
One of the other responses explained that possibly such numbers were
placed at a later date for reference reason. Whatever the case, it is
obvious that you were ready to deny the truth, no matter what the
source.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
MGhounem
>baseless claims?
Science can prove who is right or wrong, and when we put the OT, Qur'an, and
common knowledge evolutionary facts, the result is clear:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/bqe.html
the Tanach claims there was water in the begining, when scientists already
through observations with, yes, billion dollar machines, have discovered other
planets start out with gas only, as the Qur'an confirms, and that no vegitation
occurs without the sun, opisite of what the Jewish Bible says, and so on.
>However, lets focus on what you said: "God wrote the Bible and the
>Qur'an, when humans changed the Bible". Which ayat says that?
"Some of the Jews pervert words from their meanings." [4:46] "So woe to
those who write the Book with their hands, and then say, 'This is from
Allah,' that they may sell it for a little price. So woe to them for what
their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings."
[2:79]
"Say, who sent down the Book that Mosses brought as a light and a guidance to
people? You put it into sheets of paper showing some of them and concealing
much." [6:91]
"And there is a group among them who twist their tongues with the Book,
that you may think it is a part of the Book, but it is not part of the
Book. And they say 'It is from Allah,'yet it is not from Allah, and they
tell a lie against Allah and they know it. It is not for any human being
to whom Allah has given the Book, the Wisdom and the Prophethood to say to
men worship me instead of Allah," [3:78-70]
"People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, making clear to you
many things you have been concealing of the Book and forgive you much. A
light has come to you from Allah and a glorious Book, with which
He will guide whoever follows His pleasure in the way of peace, and brings
them forth from darkness into the light by His will." [5:15-16].
Furthermore, even the Bibe itself admits it has various lies; Jeremiah 8:8
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But,
behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie." (RSV)
Jeremiah 23:31 " Behold, I am against the prophets, says the LORD, who use
their tongues and say, 'Says the LORD.'
23:36 But 'the burden of the LORD' you shall mention no more, for the burden
is every man's own word, and you pervert the words of the living God, the LORD
of hosts, our God.
Jeremiah 14:14" And the LORD said to me: "The prophets are prophesying lies
in my name; I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them.
They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the
deceit of their own minds."
Even Jesus admits the Scribes omitted things from the Bible;
Matthew 23:23" Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay
tithe of mint and anise F45 and cummin, and have omitted the weightier
matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have
done, and not to leave the other undone. "
>How
>does the Quran save the bible in terms of the history of creation? What
>is the date used by Muslims who do not use the current Christian
>calendar year of 1999?????
We use the date the Qur'an was sent to us as the Christiasn use the date Christ
was born.
Although neither one of use use the date of Creation as our calender date,
there would be a delima for the fact the Jews think they were Created 6 days
ago, while the Qur'an clarifies it was 6 "Ayam" which is from the Latin word
eaon which literally means a "segmant or incrament
of time" which is in line with the Billion dollar machines which confirms with
rock fossils that the earth has been around for roughly 6 billion years., not 6
days and nights as the Jewish Bible claims.
>{al-Kahf 18:86} Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he
>found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We
>said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
>Well, now that we have these billion dollar machines, I wonder if we can
>assume the following ayat to be a scientific contradiction which the
>Quran editors mis-wrote:
>
>{al-Kahf 18:86}
This is an old polemic and answered long ago by others:
-------------
I looked in the translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, "Towards Understanding the
Qur'an" by
Mawdudi, a small translation by two muslims whose names I have forgotten (but
their translation
reflects some famous tafsirs and sources of ahadith), and, lastly, my (new)
Arabic dictionary.
I found that Mawdudi's tafsir and the Arabic dictionary to be the most
comprehensive in giving
information about this subject matter (second, of course, to just plain reading
the Qur'an).
Those verses are talking from Dhul-Qarnayn's perspective of where the sun
set/rose.
Dhul-Qarnayn found the sun setting in a murky spring, and Dhul-Qarnayn found
the sun rising on
a certain people. Allah gives His factual descriptions BEFORE describing how
Dhul-Qarnayn found
where/when the sun was setting/rising.
Until (Hattaa) as (idhaa) he reached (balagha) the place or time of
sunset/west
(maghriba)... (18:86)
As (idhaa) he reached (balagha) the rise/time of rising [of celestial
bodies]/break [of day] (maTli`a)... (18:90)
To further explain: just like Morocco is called Al-Maghrib (the West) and we
have a prayer at
sunset time called maghrib (the "a" on the end of the word in the verse is a
vowel denoting
accusative grammatical case) and maghrib is used today even today to mean the
direction west.
The key here is that Dhul-Qarnayn found the sun setting in a murky spring. The
verse is very
explicite in showing that the setting of the sun (and the rising) are from
Dhul-Qarnayn's
perspective.
Knowing this information, we can understand the description of where the sun
set and rose (from
Dhul-Qarnayn's perspective) to be simply human descriptions of the areas (both
westerly and
easterly) of Dhul-Qarnayn's reign.
I hope that clears it up.
----------------
>Also, in light of our billion dollar machines, let us look at the
>following ayat concerning Solomon...
>
>{an-Naml 27:18-19}
well, with machines less than a billion dollars, scientists have been able to
speak to dolphins, through the unlimited power of God, what is overwhelming of
a Prophet speaking to ants when an ordinary human can speak to dolphins?
And in the light of the Jewish Bible, non-human comunications is quite common;
[Judg. 9:8] The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them, and they
said unto the olive tree: Reign you over us. But the OLIVE TREE SAID unto them:
Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man and go to be
promoted over the trees?"
So you believe Moses can part the sea but Solomon could not communicate with
ants? How about trees?
Peace