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Alan Maier

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Apr 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/24/99
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Does anyone know where I can find info on converting to Islam, such as
name changes, circumsision, how to convert, etc.? Thanks


jk...@math.gatech.edu

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Apr 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/25/99
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In article <7fsog0$gv$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
Alan Maier <al...@home.com> writes:

> Does anyone know where I can find info on converting to Islam, such as
> name changes, circumsision, how to convert, etc.? Thanks

I can only say, be careful what you do, it is a one way street...

See http://answering-islam.org/Hahn/mappe.html for a discussion
of the penalty for leaving Islam, should you come to the conclusion
later that it wasn't what you thought it was. A few Muslim articles
on the topic of apostacy can be found in the links collected at

http://answering-islam.org/Sharia/

Also, I don't know whether you are just attracted through some
claims or experiences, or whether you have extensively researched
Islam, but in case you want to be really sure, I would recommend you
also talk to some who converted the other direction, and carefully
think about their reasons for leaving Islam. You can find contact
addresses of some such converts at

http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/

May God guide you and bless you in your search for truth.

Jochen Katz

Mohammad Ghoniem

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Apr 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/27/99
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Assalaamu 3alaykom.

The first bit is a reminder for JK.

3.99 Say: "O ye People of the Book! Why obstruct ye those who believe, from
the path of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves
witnesses (to Allah's Covenant)? But Allah is not unmindful of all that ye
do."

7:16. He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out (of the Way), lo! I will lie
in wait for them on Thy Straight Way: 7:17. "Then will I assault them from
before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt Thou
find, in most of them, gratitude (for Thy mercies)."

8.36 The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of
Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have
(only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the
Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;-

22:8. Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah, without
knowledge, without guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment,-
22:9. (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the
Path of Allah. for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of
Judgment We shall make him taste the Chastisement of burning (Fire).
22:10. (It will be said): "This is because of the deeds which thy hands sent
forth, for verily Allah is not unjust to His servants."

The second bit is for the seeker:

27.79 So put thy trust in Allah: for thou art on (the path of) manifest Truth.

wassalaam.

Mohammad

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Jeremiah McAuliffe

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Apr 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/27/99
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On 25 Apr 1999 22:32:07 -0700, jk...@math.gatech.edu wrote:

>In article <7fsog0$gv$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
>Alan Maier <al...@home.com> writes:
>
>
>See http://answering-islam.org/Hahn/mappe.html for a discussion
>of the penalty for leaving Islam, should you come to the conclusion
>later that it wasn't what you thought it was. A few Muslim articles
>on the topic of apostacy can be found in the links collected at

Of course, this is advice not only from a non-Muslim, but an
anti-Muslim, so, take it with a grain of salt. Or two.

> I would recommend you
>also talk to some who converted the other direction, and carefully
>think about their reasons for leaving Islam.

Provided of course you can find anyone with depth, learning, and
authenticity......

Some of the accounts at the Answering Islam web site have been
challenged with no real defense.

Isn't that right Jochen?

Of course it is!


Now, for another perspective, and one that is academically sound on
top of it, check out my web page, and its text files on Islam:

http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/text/islamtext.htm

Here you will find an easy to read essay on some basic issues, such as
apostacy, that anti-Muslims love to manipulate for their own twisted
aims, and a helpful essay on "tawheed"-- Islamic monotheism (as
distinguished from, say, a Christian trinitarian monotheism).

You will also find my conversion story. I was born and raised
Catholic, and many other things for you to read and think about.

Unlike many other conversion stories, you will learn that I prayed to
God for many years for guidance-- those prayers being answered by my
recognition of the Qur'an as a revelation from God to us.

I also have an advanced academic degree in a blend of philosophy,
psychology, and religious studies, and can assure you on that basis
alone that the Answering Islam web site is nothing but the expression
of a foundational bigotry. In my opinion, of course.

Also at my web site-- just look at the bottom of the above page for
the links-- you can enjoy contemporary Muslim graphics and NEW MP3
rockin' music files with overtly Muslim themes. Y'know, a little
creativity rather than the same tired old rhetoric......

My answer to "Answering Islam"??

My song "Ayats All Around (Signs of the Transcendent)"

Answer *that*!

Hah!

Allahu akbar!

Jeremiah McAuliffe ali...@city-net.com
Visit Dr. Jihad! Page O' Heavy Issues Y2K
http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/miaha.html

Mohamed H. Aboul-Seoud

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Apr 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/27/99
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Alan Maier wrote:

> Does anyone know where I can find info on converting to Islam, such as
> name changes, circumsision, how to convert, etc.? Thanks

In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Dear Alan:

Reverting to Islam doesn't require any rituals. God (swt) in the Final
Testament asks us (Prophet Muhammad included) to follow the religion of
Abraham "full submission to God (swt)". Read (2:131) to know how Abraham
submitted to God (swt). Now, you don't have to change your name nor to
circumcise. In fact, God (swt) knows everything we think of, whether we
mention it or not.

Don't concentrate on forms, but grasp the concept of Islam which is
simply " There is no god but God (swt)". This means that, not only He is
the only god, but also, He is the only Possessor of Power, Kingdom,
Ruling, ...etc. Don't associate anyone, anything with Him. Don't follow
anything other than His book. Don't let Satan fool you to follow mere
mortals.

As for Jochen's advice, you are the one to make the decision, however,
if you follow true Islam, the religion ordained and elucidated by the
Almighty (swt) in His book, you'll know that there is no punishment for
apostasy. You are free to make your own choice whether to accept or
reject Islam. In fact, Islam is the religion of freedom, how else do you
think will God (swt) judge among us in the Hereafter, if we didn't make
our most important decision with our full freedom?

God bless you,

Mohamed H. Aboul-Seoud, Ph.D.
Visiting Assistant Professor
Department of Industrial Engineering
University of Louisville, KY

Paul O Bartlett

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Apr 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/27/99
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On 25 Apr 1999 jk...@math.gatech.edu wrote (excerpt):

: In article <7fsog0$gv$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
: Alan Maier <al...@home.com> writes:
:
: > Does anyone know where I can find info on converting to Islam, such as


: > name changes, circumsision, how to convert, etc.? Thanks

:
: I can only say, be careful what you do, it is a one way street...

: [...]

Whether it is in actual practice a one way street, in that there
are western converts to Islam who have been murdered for leaving
Islam, I will leave aside for the moment for lack of information on my
part. However, I have no reason to doubt that many Muslims -believe-
that conversion to Islam followed by so-called apostasy is a capital
offense.

One thing that has always bothered me about this "hard line"
attitude which I do not doubt exists among at least some Muslims is
that it has no place for real, flesh and blood human beings with all
their weaknesses. Some people might make Shahada more or less on a
whim without really understanding Islam or Muslims or even their own
motives at the time. Then subsequently they hear that "apostasy is a
capital offense" and they can be subject to either despair or terror
(or both).

There are some individuals in this world who seem to be
pathologically (I use the word deliberately) incapable of sustaining
belief in -anything- for any extended period of time. It seems to be a
genuine internal defect in the way their minds and hearts work. But
the "rigidists" of any religion -- most pointedly including Islam --
have no truck with and no place for such people. In other words, they
have no place for real people.

--
Paul <bart...@smart.net>
..........................................................
Paul O. Bartlett, P.O. Box 857, Vienna, VA 22183-0857, USA
Keyserver (0xF383C8F9) or WWW for PGP public key
Home Page: http://www.smart.net/~bartlett

Dr. M S M Saifullah

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Apr 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/28/99
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Alan Maier <al...@home.com> writes:

Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:

>> Does anyone know where I can find info on converting to Islam, such as
>> name changes, circumsision, how to convert, etc.? Thanks

I would recommend that you check

http://www.islam-qa.com/

They have good amount of information that you may be looking for, God
willing. You will also be seeing lots of Islamic legal opinion concerning
name changes, possibly circumcision, inheritance, marriage, etc. That site
is quite comprehensive in this regard.

And as far as the Christian missionaries are concerned, it is their job to
come to this newsgroup, make a bit of noise, misguide people towards kufr
and then feel happy about it. So, do not get bothered.

I pray that Allah guides you to the truth.

-------

Dr. M S M Saifullah NTT Basic Research Laboratories
Islamic Awareness http://salam.muslimsonline.com/~islamawe


comsen...@my-dejanews.com

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Apr 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/28/99
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ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) wrote:
[snip]

>Now, for another perspective, and one that is academically sound on
>top of it, check out my web page, and its text files on Islam:
>
>http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/text/islamtext.htm
>
>Here you will find an easy to read essay on some basic issues, such as
>apostacy, that anti-Muslims love to manipulate for their own twisted
>aims,

Here's an excerpt from an Islamic manual of Fiqh (Islamic Sacred Law), dealing
with apostacy (ridda). No "manipulation" is necessary.....

The following is the portion dealing with apostasy (ridda) from "Reliance of
the Traveller", described as "The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law 'Umdat
al-Salik". I don't have the actual date it was written, but the author died
in 1368, so I assume it was finalized before then. The translation is from
1991. According to the translator, "The present volume, 'Umdat al-salik [The
reliance of the traveller], represents one of the finest and most reliable
short works in Shafi'i* jurisprudence, a school with perhaps fewer scholarly
differences on rulings than others because its main resource is the recension
of Imam Nawawi, the great thirteenth-century Shafi'i hadith scholar and
jurisprudent who upgraded the work of previous generations in terms of the
authenticity and application of hadith evidence."

*[there are four schools of Islamic law in Sunni Islam: Hanafi, Hanbali,
Maliki, and Shafi'i, which according to the translator "are identical in
approximately 75 percent of their legal conclusions"--CS]

As to the contemporary-vs-medieval thought issue: there are several letters
>from different Arab Sheiks in the introduction to this book endorsing the
accuracy of the translation, and the most prestigious Islamic University in
the world, Egypt's Al-Azhar, proclaimed it to be an accurate manual on
orthodox Sunni Islamic Law when it was translated and published in 1991.

==================================================================
o8.0 APOSTASY FROM ISLAM (RIDDA)

(O: Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst.
It may come about through sarcasm, as when someone is told, "Trim your
nails, it is sunna," and he replies, "I would not do it even if it
were," as opposed to when some circumstance exists which exonerates him
of having committed apostasy, such as when his tongue runs away with
him, or when he is quoting someone, or when it comes out of fear.)

o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily
apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.

o8.2 In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (A: or his
representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does,
it is accepted from him but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.

o8.3 If he is a freeman, no one besides the caliph or his
representative may kill him. If someone else kills him, the killer is
disciplined (def: o17)(O: for arrogating the caliph's prerogative and
encroaching upon his rights, as this is one of his duties).

o8.4 There is no indemnity for killing an apostate (O: or any
expiation, since it is killing someone who deserves to die).

o8.5 If he apostatizes from Islam and returns several times, it (O: his
return to Islam, which occurs when he states the two Testifications of
Faith (def: o8.7(12))) is accepted from him, though he is disciplined
(o17).

o8.6 (A: If a spouse in a consummated marriage apostatizes from Islam,
the couple are separated for a waiting period consisting of three
intervals between menstruations. If the spouse returns to Islam before
the waiting period ends, the marriage is not annulled but is considered
to have continued the whole time (dis: m7.4).)

ACTS THAT ENTAIL LEAVING ISLAM

o8.7 (O: Among the things that entail apostasy from Islam (may Allah
protect us from them) are:

(1) to prostrate to an idol, whether sarcastically, out of mere
contrariness, or in actual conviction, like that of someone who believes
the Creator to be something that has originated in time. Like idols in
this respect are the sun or moon, and like prostration is bowing to
other than Allah, if one intends reverence towards it like the reverence
due to Allah;

(2) to intend to commit unbelief, even if in the future. And like
this intention is hesitating to do so or not: one thereby immediately
commits unbelief;

(3) to speak words that imply unbelief such as "Allah is the third of
three," or "I am Allah"--unless one's tongue has run away with one, or
one is quoting another, or is one of the friends of Allah Most High
(wali, def: w33) in a spiritually intoxicated state of total oblivion
(A: friend of Allah or not, someone totally oblivious is as if insane,
and is not held legally responsible (dis: k13.1(O:))), for these latter
do not entail unbelief;

(4) to revile Allah or His messenger (Allah bless him and give him
peace);

(5) to deny the existence of Allah, His beginningless eternality, His
endless eternality, or to deny any of His attributes which the consensus
of Muslims ascribes to him (dis: v1);

(6) to be sarcastic about Allah's name, His command, His interdiction,
His promise, or His threat;

(7) to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly
consensus (def: b7) belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not
belong to it;

(8) to mockingly say, "I don't know what faith is";

(9) to reply to someone who says, "There is no power or strength save
through Allah": "Your saying 'There's no power or strength, etc.' won't
save you from hunger";

(10) for a tyrant, after an oppressed person says, "This is through the
decree of Allah," to reply, "I act without the decree of Allah";

(11) to say that a Muslim is an unbeliever (kafir) (dis: w47) in words that
are uninterpretable as merely meaning he is an ingrate towards Allah for
divinely given blessings (n: in Arabic, also "kafir");

(12) when someone asks to be taught the Testification of Faith (Ar.
Shahada, the words, "La ilaha il Allahu Muhammadan rasulu Llah" (There is no
god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah)), and a Muslim refuses to
teach him it;

(13) to describe a Muslim or someone who wants to become a Muslim in terms
of unbelief (kufr);

(14) to deny the obligatory character of something which by the consensus
of Muslims (ijma', def: b7) is part of Islam, when it is still known as such,
like the prayer (salat), or even one rak'a from one of the five obligatory
prayers, if there is no excuse (def: u2.4);

(15) to hold that any of Allah's messengers or prophets or liars, or to
deny their being sent;

(n: 'Ala' al-Din 'Abidin adds the following:

(16) to revile the religion of Islam;

(17) to believe that things in themselves or by their own nature have any
causal influence independent of the will of Allah;

(18) to deny the existence of angels or jinn (def: w22), or the heavens;

(19) to be sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law;

(20) or to deny that Allah intended the Prophet's message (Allah bless him
and give him peace) to be the religion to be followed by the entire world
(dis: w4.3-4) (al-Hadiyya al-'Ala'iyya (y4), 423-24).)

There are others, for the subject is nearly limitless. May Allah Most High
save us and all Muslims from it.)
============================================================

As I said: no "twisting" necessary. A few Islamic websites which discuss
apostasy:

http://islam.org:81/imam/nsearch.htm is a search engine. You can specify
question number in the search: questions 3244, 2797, 2556, and 1748 deal with
apostasy.

Also see:
http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostacy.htm

> I also have an advanced academic degree in a blend of philosophy,
>psychology, and religious studies, and can assure you on that basis
>alone that the Answering Islam web site is nothing but the expression
>of a foundational bigotry. In my opinion, of course.

One could assume a tiny bit of bias on your part.

>
>Also at my web site-- just look at the bottom of the above page for
>the links-- you can enjoy contemporary Muslim graphics and NEW MP3
>rockin' music files with overtly Muslim themes. Y'know, a little
>creativity rather than the same tired old rhetoric......

According to "Reliance of the Traveller", music is forbidden in Islam.

CS

Jochen Katz

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Apr 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/28/99
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In article <7g3re2$hej$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
Mohammad Ghoniem <mgho...@my-dejanews.com> writes:

> The first bit is a reminder for JK.

Trust me. I know this stuff well and my memory is excellent
as some Muslims are sadly aware of. I don't need much in way
or reminding.

> 3.99 Say: "O ye People of the Book! Why obstruct ye those who believe, from
> the path of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves
> witnesses (to Allah's Covenant)? But Allah is not unmindful of all that ye
> do."

I know this claim. But why would I assume that the message of the
Qur'an is the path of God? That is your working hypothesis, but
not mine. Little has been done in giving solid evidence for this
hypothesis.

You claim the Qur'anic message is the path, I proclaim that Jesus
is the only way. Islam is making this clear way of God crooked
and does everything to hold people back from accepting the Gospel
of God in Jesus. I agree though, with the last part of the quote:
And God is not unmindful of all that you do.

> 7:16. He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out (of the Way), lo! I will lie
> in wait for them on Thy Straight Way: 7:17. "Then will I assault them from
> before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt Thou
> find, in most of them, gratitude (for Thy mercies)."

To be blunt. I think the author Qur'an is using ad hominem. If you
can't win the argument, just accuse your opponent to be evil,
mischiveous, hiding the truth, ... Certainly the mere accusation
of the opponent does not establish their guilt.

> 8.36 The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of
> Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have
> (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the
> Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;-

This verse is just as true, when you substitute "Muslims" for
"unbelievers". At least from a non-Muslim perspective. Certainly
Muslims are spending a lot of money on dawah material.

> 22:8. Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah, without
> knowledge, without guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment,-

We certainly see these people a lot, don't we?

> 22:9. (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the
> Path of Allah. for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of
> Judgment We shall make him taste the Chastisement of burning (Fire).
> 22:10. (It will be said): "This is because of the deeds which thy hands sent
> forth, for verily Allah is not unjust to His servants."

Yes, these people certainly exist. But the question is of whom that
is a true description. If the Qur'an claims that is the non-Muslims
then this is a claim, which has to be substantiated. And that is
not established by mere repetition of the accusations.

> The second bit is for the seeker:
>
> 27.79 So put thy trust in Allah: for thou art on (the path of) manifest Truth.

Amen.

"Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will
listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me
with all your heart. I will be found by you", declares the Lord.
(Book of the Prophet Jeremiah 29:12-14)


May we all be sincere in our thirst for God and His Truth.
In His time, he will answer us.

Jochen Katz


c.collado

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Apr 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/28/99
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jk...@math.gatech.edu wrote in message <7g0ton$sg2$1...@waltz.rahul.net>...
>In article <7fsog0$gv$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,

>Also, I don't know whether you are just attracted through some
>claims or experiences, or whether you have extensively researched

>Islam, but in case you want to be really sure, I would recommend you


>also talk to some who converted the other direction, and carefully

>think about their reasons for leaving Islam. You can find contact
>addresses of some such converts at


I find it amusing that Christians are so threatened by a conversion to
Islam...as if you've lost a teammate...Why is that? Let me tell you that
muslims are not evangelical in the same way christians are..in other words,
they don't need too. They DO Islam, not talk about it. I got interested in
Islam by watching what muslims did, noone made any claims to me, and when I
finally approached someone to ask, they were not the least bit surprised or
excited, like the Bible Thumpers. Do a real comparison on conversion rates
>from Muslim to Christian and vice versa. Why are Christian missionaries in
some muslim African countries still there, after so many years, and still no
Christians? I wouldn't be surprised if some of those missionaries weren't
secretly muslims by now. You are right to be concerned, and btw, when I was
still in my process of exhaustive research, before coming to Islam, I did
give some attention to Answering Christianity and Answering Islam equally,
and, well....you know the rest..Your attempt to appear objective and calmly
concerned for this poster is transparent. Christianity is coming up short
for too many. I would rather take a chance on death for apostacy, then live
an entire life trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

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Apr 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/29/99
to
On 28 Apr 1999 02:36:14 -0700, comsen...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) wrote:
>[snip]
>>Now, for another perspective, and one that is academically sound on
>>top of it, check out my web page, and its text files on Islam:
>>
>>http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/text/islamtext.htm
>>
>>Here you will find an easy to read essay on some basic issues, such as
>>apostacy, that anti-Muslims love to manipulate for their own twisted
>>aims,
>
>Here's an excerpt from an Islamic manual of Fiqh (Islamic Sacred Law), dealing
>with apostacy (ridda). No "manipulation" is necessary.....

Who let you on sri?

I too can look up Medieval theologies..... for instance, we could
explore what Christians thought should be done with witches, oh, 200
years ago...... somethin' about burning at the stake, if I recall.

.....and we can look at Medieval Muslim theology too. But only a fool
follows it hook, line and sinker.

Anti-Muslims---- somewhat brainless.

Jochen Katz

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Apr 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/29/99
to
In article <7g6ku3$b4k$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
"c.collado" <c.co...@mciworld.com> writes:

> jk...@math.gatech.edu wrote in message <7g0ton$sg2$1...@waltz.rahul.net>...
> >In article <7fsog0$gv$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
>
> >Also, I don't know whether you are just attracted through some
> >claims or experiences, or whether you have extensively researched
> >Islam, but in case you want to be really sure, I would recommend you
> >also talk to some who converted the other direction, and carefully
> >think about their reasons for leaving Islam. You can find contact
> >addresses of some such converts at

You forgot to quote:

at: http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/

:-)

> I find it amusing that Christians are so threatened by a conversion to
> Islam...as if you've lost a teammate...Why is that?

No need to speculate. I am not threatened and God isn't threatened either.
But I am concerned for the eternal wellbeing of a seeker after God,
that for whatever reason he seems to go down the wrong path at this time.
I hope I can help him by giving him facts and people to support him
to discern the truth. That is all.

> Let me tell you that
> muslims are not evangelical in the same way christians are..

They are not evangelical at all.

> in other words,
> they don't need too. They DO Islam, not talk about it.

You are new to this newsgroup, aren't you? There is lots of talking
Islam here.

> I got interested in
> Islam by watching what muslims did, noone made any claims to me, and when I
> finally approached someone to ask, they were not the least bit surprised or
> excited, like the Bible Thumpers.

I don't know any Bible thumpers. But that is irrelevant.

> Do a real comparison on conversion rates
> >from Muslim to Christian and vice versa.

That would be an interesting thing to do, and you might be surprised. :-)

> Why are Christian missionaries in
> some muslim African countries still there, after so many years, and still no
> Christians?

Maybe you are just not informed? I know hundreds of converts, some in
the US, some from Africa, some from the Middle East, .... and a few of
those I know have their testimonies on the above site. It seems you
complained even before you looked at the evidence I provided. There are
plenty of converts.

> I wouldn't be surprised if some of those missionaries weren't
> secretly muslims by now.

If you can't get them public, you just declare them secret Muslims.
Have a look at one such claim of secret Muslims, it is quite old:

http://answering-islam.org/Hoaxes/abuishaq.html

> You are right to be concerned, and btw, when I was
> still in my process of exhaustive research, before coming to Islam, I did
> give some attention to Answering Christianity and Answering Islam equally,
> and, well....you know the rest..

No, I don't know. You have not told me. You say you are a Muslim, but
you have not told us WHY. You have not given any evaluation of the
arguments and what you found convincing. I am genuinely interested
to hear that.

> Your attempt to appear objective and calmly
> concerned for this poster is transparent. Christianity is coming up short
> for too many. I would rather take a chance on death for apostacy, then live
> an entire life trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

Everyone is entitled to his feelings about this issue. Now, after you
shared your feelings, maybe next time you can give some objective
facts that made you choose Islam over following Jesus?

Warm regards,

Jochen Katz


Jochen Katz

unread,
Apr 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/29/99
to
In article <7g3re9$hf6$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) writes:

> >See http://answering-islam.org/Hahn/mappe.html for a discussion
> >of the penalty for leaving Islam, should you come to the conclusion
> >later that it wasn't what you thought it was. A few Muslim articles
> >on the topic of apostacy can be found in the links collected at
>
> Of course, this is advice not only from a non-Muslim, but an
> anti-Muslim, so, take it with a grain of salt. Or two.

Take all the salt you can find. But do put the salt on it while
READING it. Don't get salted WITHOUT actually reading it which
seems to be Jeremiah's mode of operation who loves to denouce
what he has (most probably) not even read.

Note, he has not give any critique of the content, he has rejected it
ONLY because it comes from somebody he loves to hate. This is called
academic discourse by somebody who has incredible credentials as he
does not tire to point out:

> I also have an advanced academic degree in a blend of philosophy,
> psychology, and religious studies, and can assure you on that basis
> alone that the Answering Islam web site is nothing but the expression
> of a foundational bigotry. In my opinion, of course.

Of course it is your opinion. So what? Opinions don't amount to much.
The internet is full of unsubstantiated opinions. What counts are
reasoned arguments with the facts supplied.

> > I would recommend you
> >also talk to some who converted the other direction, and carefully
> >think about their reasons for leaving Islam.
>

> Provided of course you can find anyone with depth, learning, and
> authenticity......

Yes, and you can find such at the page

http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/

Not all of them were Islamic scholars, but some were very well
versed in Islam indeed. Jeremiah likes to pick on those he thinks
are not knowledgable enough, and use those to dismiss the rest.
That is rather cheap. Why not seek to measure yourself against
the big ones, instead of the small ones?

> Some of the accounts at the Answering Islam web site have been
> challenged with no real defense.
>
> Isn't that right Jochen?
>
> Of course it is!

You may judge for yourself whether there was no real defense
and who came up empty in the course of the discussion.

http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=411220325
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=411682395
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=412682885
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=412686552

Don't forget to click on "thread" to see Jeremiah's
responses to them and the rest of the discussion as
well.

> Now, for another perspective, and one that is academically sound on
> top of it, check out my web page, and its text files on Islam:
>
> http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/text/islamtext.htm
>
> Here you will find an easy to read essay on some basic issues, such as
> apostacy, that anti-Muslims love to manipulate for their own twisted
> aims,

Common sense has made my job easy. I can just refer to him.
His posting yesterday was excellent, and shows how little
substance Jeremiah really has.

http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=471818159


Jochen Katz


comsen...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Apr 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/29/99
to
ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) wrote:
>
>On 28 Apr 1999 02:36:14 -0700, comsen...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>>ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) wrote:
>>[snip]
>>>Now, for another perspective, and one that is academically sound on
>>>top of it, check out my web page, and its text files on Islam:
>>>
>>>http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/text/islamtext.htm
>>>
>>>Here you will find an easy to read essay on some basic issues, such as
>>>apostacy, that anti-Muslims love to manipulate for their own twisted
>>>aims,
>>
>>Here's an excerpt from an Islamic manual of Fiqh (Islamic Sacred Law), dealing
>>with apostacy (ridda). No "manipulation" is necessary.....
>
>Who let you on sri?

Presumably, the same moderators who let you post this message, despite the
fact that it contains a personal insult, in clear violation of sri policy...

>I too can look up Medieval theologies..... for instance, we could
>explore what Christians thought should be done with witches, oh, 200
>years ago...... somethin' about burning at the stake, if I recall.

Yes, they too had barbaric laws. I am not aware of any present-day Christian
websites that advocate the practice, however, but even if there are, this is a
strawman tactic, as we are discussing apostasy from ISLAM.

This is soc.religion.ISLAM, after all, and I posted material about ISLAMIC
positions on apostasy, because you keep disingenuously maintaining that
non-Muslims misrepresent the ISLAMIC position on apostasy. The material I
posted was taken from present-day ISLAMIC sources.

>.....and we can look at Medieval Muslim theology too. But only a fool
>follows it hook, line and sinker.

Here is a sampling of articles posted by Muslims who have argued in favor the
death penalty for apostates from Islam on this net and on ari, who are
presumably not of Medieval origin. I take it you think they are fools?

http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=411682398
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=413233791
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=146809517
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=258002382
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=228558310

And there are many more, all posted by 20th century Muslims....unless people
>from the middle ages have been resurrected from their graves, learned to
operate computers, and started posting to usenet. In several of the previous
articles, the Muslim authors cite the same "Medieval" manual of Fiqh
("Reliance of the Traveller") I quoted in my article from yesterday.

An interesting analysis from a Muslim poster, which also cites "Reliance of
the Traveller":
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=443457055

Additionally, if you'll read my post from yesterday again, you'll see that I
anticipated this argument from you:

>From http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=471818159 :

I wrote:
>As to the contemporary-vs-medieval thought issue: there are several letters
>from different Arab Sheiks in the introduction to this book endorsing the
>accuracy of the translation, and the most prestigious Islamic University in
>the world, Egypt's Al-Azhar, proclaimed it to be an accurate manual on
>orthodox Sunni Islamic Law when it was translated and published in 1991.

Are you reading carefully, Dr. McAuliffe? These letters of endorsement were
written in _1991_. The book was published in _1991_.

I also provided links to two websites, which were presumably not created in
Medieval times, which advocate the killing of apostates from Islam:

I wrote:
>A few Islamic websites which discuss
>apostasy:
>
>http://islam.org:81/imam/nsearch.htm is a search engine. You can specify
>question number in the search: questions 3244, 2797, 2556, and 1748 deal with
>apostasy.
>
>Also see:
>http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostacy.htm

McAuliffe again:
>Anti-Muslims---- somewhat brainless.

I also urge the reader to visit Dr. McAuliffe's page, at
http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/text/islamtext.htm , and read what the good
Doctor has to say about the evils of ad hominem attacks. Apparently, he feels
no need to practice what he preaches.

Jochen Katz

unread,
Apr 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/29/99
to
In article <7g91sj$nk2$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) writes:

> >>Now, for another perspective, and one that is academically sound on
> >>top of it, check out my web page, and its text files on Islam:
> >>
> >>http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/text/islamtext.htm
> >>
> >>Here you will find an easy to read essay on some basic issues, such as
> >>apostacy, that anti-Muslims love to manipulate for their own twisted
> >>aims,

comsen...@my-dejanews.com replied

> >Here's an excerpt from an Islamic manual of Fiqh (Islamic Sacred Law), dealing
> >with apostacy (ridda). No "manipulation" is necessary.....

Jeremiah at his best again:

> Who let you on sri?

What answer is that?

> I too can look up Medieval theologies..... for instance, we could
> explore what Christians thought should be done with witches, oh, 200
> years ago...... somethin' about burning at the stake, if I recall.
>

> ......and we can look at Medieval Muslim theology too. But only a fool


> follows it hook, line and sinker.
>

> Anti-Muslims---- somewhat brainless.

Now, that is classical ad hominem mixed in with temper tantrum.

Common Sense quoted from "The Reliance of the Traveller" which
is the standard compendium of Islamic Law of the Shafi'i school.

It might originate in the "middle ages", but it is considered
authoritative today by a large part of the Muslim population.
Several Muslims on this forum regularly quote from it, and they
are not lunatic fringe, but well respected on SRI, among them
Mr. AbdulRahHman Lomax and Dr. Dien Rice take this as one source
of what Islam truly represents.

Jeremiah was very offended when some years back I wrote in one of
my responses to him that he is making up his own Islam. But the
above reaction certainly goes a long way to substantiate this
impression.

Yes, there was some atrocious stuff in earlier centuries, where
Christians(?) have justified their actions by applying Bible passages
out of context and against their spirit. But even back then, they
were not unprotested by other Christians.

But more important, today no mainstream church defends these
interpretations anymore. Christians know something went quite
wrong. And today theology is based on much sounder principles
of exegesis, and in particular, less hostage to those with
political power. The witchburning is a thing of the past
[by and large, there are always some loonies around].

However, what you despise as Medieval theology is CURRENT Islamic
understanding of the Sharia. Apart from some small minority of
reform Muslims (which often are persecuted as enemies of true Islam)
most Muslims firmly hold to the original teachings of the founders
of the four madhabs. It is the first time that I see any such strong
condemnation of Shafi'i law as outdated and more: WRONG.

Christians clearly say that these witchtrials should not be repeated
and were wrong. Muslims hardly ever say either about Shafi'i law
or for that matter Hanafi, or Hanbali law which are very similar on
the issue of apostacy anyway. With this above reaction you have put
yourself clearly outside of mainstream Islam.

That is fine with you. You are free to believe whatever you want.
But don't tell me I have not understood Islam when I am not agreeing
with your own rather idiosyncratic version of it.

Jochen Katz


sv...@hotmail.com

unread,
Apr 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/29/99
to
In article <7g91uh$nu5$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
jk...@math.gatech.edu wrote:

> http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/
>
> Not all of them were Islamic scholars, but some were very well
> versed in Islam indeed. Jeremiah likes to pick on those he thinks
> are not knowledgable enough, and use those to dismiss the rest.
> That is rather cheap. Why not seek to measure yourself against
> the big ones, instead of the small ones?

SAQIB
There are many testimonies at the site. Maybe you could point
to one of the "big ones". I have had personal interaction with a
couple of these converts and as you probably know they were the
most unreasonable and agitated of people. They displayed only
hatred and none of the attributes one might associate with a good
Christian. On top of that they appeared to have little knowledge
of Islam.

A Christian who converts to Islam does not give up their love
for Jesus(pbuh) but it seems a Muslim who converts to
Christianity has to develop hatred for Muhammad(pbuh). I have
noticed the converts to Islam are not nearly as aggressive
towards Christianity. At least that has been my experience
on a Muslim-Christian mailing list and you could probably admit
to the fact as well.

The behaviour of the converts from Islam to Christianity is
quite similar to the behaviour of converts from Christianity
to atheism. There are many among both groups who feel the need
to lash out at their former religion.

To get to the actual testimonies, I am not sure which are from
the "big ones" so I will start by quoting the first paragraph
>from the first testimony(Bassam's) at the site:

"I live in the Middle East. I was born as a Muslim, and at
the age of 18 I became a member of one of the Islamic groups,
as I had a relative who was one of the leaders of this group.
I thought I was doing everything I could for God as I knew
him at this point.

After a short time I started to get some training in using
guns and making explosives. I wasn't very comfortable with
what I was doing - hurting people for God's sake. I thought
that either I or the group had misunderstood the teachings of
God. I started to study the Qur'an and the Hadith all over
again, (with the help of one of the leaders of the group,
without telling him my real reasons for studying) to see what
I had missed. After a couple of years I was astonished at
what I found. I found that Islam is not the peaceful path to
God, as I used to believe; on the contrary, it's so violent.
If *I* have to establish God's will by any means possible, even
by killing people, I said it can't be the way to God."

This person supposedly studied Islam and came to the conclusion
that it is violent and it preaches that he must hurt and kill
people to establish the will of God. If that is what he thinks
than it is no wonder he left the religion. I suppose if he had
met a Buddhist instead of a Christian he would have converted
to that faith instead of Christianity.

Now, of the testimonies, I think that one of the "big ones"
would be that of Abdul Saleeb's, correct? Reading down his
testimony it becomes obvious that he also has little
understanding. His first actual complaint with Islam reads as
follows:

"My spiritual journey went on for months. Oftentimes I did find
comfort in the Qur'an, but I was encountering more questions in
that book than answers. For example, the violent tone of many
of the Qur'anic passages (especially against the unbelievers but
also against the Jewish and Christian people) began to bother me,
when compared with the emphasis on love in the New Testament.
One particular passage that troubled me, especially in light of
my good friendship with many Christians, was in Sura 5:51.

O ye who believe! Take not Jews and Christians for your
friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors
to eachother. And he amongst you that turns to them
(for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people
unjust."

What I don't understand is how someone, who must have taken the
time to study these things and examine his reasons for leaving
Islam, could not have realised the Quran does not forbid friendships
with Christians. Is he really so ignorant or is he just a Christian
propagandist? Did he leave Islam because he was incapbale of
reason and Christianity provided the fuzzy-ness and unthinking
emotionalism he was looking for? How is it that he is able to quote
one particular verse but could not read the entire surah which
would have solved his "problem"?

The testimonies at the site, which I have read, are quite
transparent. They expose a serious lack of knowledge about Islam
and a serious lack of any religous reason these converts had to
leave Islam. Not to mention that some of them appear contrived
and outright fake. Can anybody tell me what kind of person uses
the Bible as a footstool? If such a person becomes Christian,
can we say he was ever a Muslim to begin with?

--
Wasalaam,
Saqib Virk

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
Apr 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/29/99
to
On 29 Apr 1999 00:32:22 -0700, jk...@math.gatech.edu (Jochen Katz)
wrote:


>But I am concerned for the eternal wellbeing of a seeker after God,

Yeah. Right.

Alburhaan2

unread,
May 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/1/99
to
Subject: Re: conversion info...
From: ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe)

>.....and we can look at Medieval Muslim theology too. But only a fool
> follows it hook, line and sinker.

Hadith, Sunnah, traditional tafsir, fiqh, and shari'a contain a great deal of
medieval Islamic theology. But when anyone questions any of it he/she is
usually abused, insulted, and accused of hating the prophet and sometimes even
declared a kafir by seemingly veterans of this NG.

But they can follow the most contradicng medieval theology, hook, line, and
sinker by going on and on about what this scholar and that shaykh says with no
reference to the Qur'an, and in clear violation of the Qur'an, and then pat
each other on the back and call each other brothers and sisters.

You are right: only a fool follows it hook, line and sinker.


Jochen Katz

unread,
May 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/1/99
to
In article <7gbbov$b9q$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
sv...@hotmail.com writes:

> > http://answering-islam.org/Testimonies/

> > Not all of them were Islamic scholars, but some were very well
> > versed in Islam indeed. Jeremiah likes to pick on those he thinks
> > are not knowledgable enough, and use those to dismiss the rest.
> > That is rather cheap. Why not seek to measure yourself against
> > the big ones, instead of the small ones?

> SAQIB
> There are many testimonies at the site.

Indeed, because there are quite a number of people who have converted.

> Maybe you could point
> to one of the "big ones".

I could, but you are invited to read them all. :-)
I am going to comment though on those you chose to comment on.

> I have had personal interaction with a
> couple of these converts and as you probably know they were the
> most unreasonable and agitated of people.

Something nobody would ever say of you. ;->

Okay, you are mostly not agitated, but ...

> They displayed only
> hatred and none of the attributes one might associate with a good
> Christian. On top of that they appeared to have little knowledge
> of Islam.

No, I have not seen them ever display hatred against Muslims.
I have seen them make strong statements about Islam, but should
we not hate falsehood and evil? As they see it, these people have
been robbed many years of their life by this deception. Should
they not hate it now that they see what it is and what it still
does to countless Muslims, leading them astray and keeping them
>from the truth?

You are talking about Walid and Ibrahim. I have seen them
interact with Muslims personally (not internet) and I know
they do not hate, even though they have been full of hate
while still Muslims, that is true. Both of them are Arabs.
They can be very blunt at times, very strong language,
just as you see it from the Muslim Arabs on the newsgroups.
Why would you put different standards on them as you put on
your Muslim brothers?

But hate? No. By the way, I put put Walid into the "semi big"
category. He might have had a violent past, but his father
has given khutbas at the Al-Aqsa mosque, and he certainly
has a solid Islamic education and knowledge. Himself he never
was in any high islamic position, but knows much of the Qur'an
by heart and was a Qur'an reciter. And, he came to faith in
the Bible and Jesus by studying it intensively - not some
miraculous event or dream or vision. His conversion is very
solidly based on grappling with the evidence for the two
faiths. I recommend you read his book some times, it is
at http://answering-islam.org/Walid/ I don't agree with
everything he says but he has a lot of excellent points.

> The behaviour of the converts from Islam to Christianity is
> quite similar to the behaviour of converts from Christianity
> to atheism. There are many among both groups who feel the need
> to lash out at their former religion.

I discern quite some difference, but there is no point in
debating personal impressions.

Yes, he was part of a rather violent Muslim brotherhood movement.
If I would mention some names of the leadership you would know
them, they have been in the press. But yes, he is a "big one"
in my category. Bassam is not only a Hafiz, he knows considerable
parts of the hadith by heart. He has written a book on Hadith
literature (after his conversion), furthermore, he is a certified
teacher of Arabic, and he is one of the people whom I am asking
whenever I have a sticky problem in Arabic or Islamic theology.

Sadly, he is extremely busy and can't contribute much at this
time.

Maseehi is still quite young, but also very knowledgable, very
well educated in Islamic. I could say a lot more, but as I
indicate below, too much detail is dangerous for these people.

> Now, of the testimonies, I think that one of the "big ones"
> would be that of Abdul Saleeb's, correct?

Not really. Abdul was a more or less nominal Muslim. He only
started to read the Qur'an more seriously when he was challenged
in his faith by Christians. But today, he has an M.A. in theology,
working towards a PhD, and is very well versed in both Christian
and Islamic theology. He never was a "learned Muslim" before he
converted, but he certainly is learned today.

> Reading down his
> testimony it becomes obvious that he also has little
> understanding.

Maybe HAD little understanding. But a testimony is NOT an
intellectual/academic paper with all the arguments pro and
contra evaluated. A testimony is a record of what concerned
him _at_the_time_. Today he has many more and different reasons
why he is a Christian or why he is not a Muslim. But in a
testimony one tells the reasons and thoughts they had at the
time of conversion or in the events leading up to it.

You seem not to understand the purpose nor the nature of these
testimonies. I have never ever said you should convert from
Islam to Christianity because these people converted or because
of the reasons these people did. Some of the reasons are shallow.
I agree. But testimonies are about real life, not about writing
a PhD dissertation on comparative religion and apologetics.
They are much more about life struggles.

> His first actual complaint with Islam reads as
> follows:
>
> "My spiritual journey went on for months. Oftentimes I did find
> comfort in the Qur'an, but I was encountering more questions in
> that book than answers. For example, the violent tone of many
> of the Qur'anic passages (especially against the unbelievers but
> also against the Jewish and Christian people) began to bother me,
> when compared with the emphasis on love in the New Testament.
> One particular passage that troubled me, especially in light of
> my good friendship with many Christians, was in Sura 5:51.
>
> O ye who believe! Take not Jews and Christians for your
> friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors
> to eachother. And he amongst you that turns to them
> (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people
> unjust."
>
> What I don't understand is how someone, who must have taken the
> time to study these things and examine his reasons for leaving
> Islam, could not have realised the Quran does not forbid friendships
> with Christians.

Well, it says in plain language, do NOT take them as friends.
And this hit him because he had good Christian friends. It was
not an academic issue, it was a life issue at that time.
And he tells what he thought and felt at the time. However,
that is not the only or not the main reason. You should read the
rest of the testimony which has a lot more objective reasoning
in it. You make the same error as Jeremiah. You try to find
something that is weak in your eyes, and then run with it,
instead of tackling the strong points.

> Is he really so ignorant or is he just a Christian
> propagandist?

Neither. He is a serious academically minded person with
a lot more credentials than you will probably ever have.

> Did he leave Islam because he was incapbale of
> reason

This is so ludicrous a statement at least to those who know him.
He teaches on Islam and Christianity in many seminars and is a
very sharp thinker. I have learned a lot from him. But as I said,
his testimony is about the time when he was 16 years old. For a
16 year old boy, he was doing already quite some thinking as the
testimony shows. He does not state his age in the testimony, but
he gives you a clue that the talks a lot about the school he went
to, which clearly is not university, but high school.

> The testimonies at the site, which I have read, are quite
> transparent. They expose a serious lack of knowledge about Islam

Most certainly know and knew at time of conversion more about
Islam than many who enter Islam, or leave Christianity and are
displayed on the converts to Islam pages on the Muslim sites.
But that is not the point. I never ever argued you should
convert on the basis of these testimonies.

> and a serious lack of any religous reason these converts had to
> leave Islam. Not to mention that some of them appear contrived
> and outright fake. Can anybody tell me what kind of person uses
> the Bible as a footstool? If such a person becomes Christian,
> can we say he was ever a Muslim to begin with?

There are lots of Muslims who love to show their contempt for the
Bible in one way or other. Another friend in Egypt told that his
Muslim neighbors once put a burning cigarette into his Bible and
closed it on it, burning a hole in several pages. Ever so often
I hear reports of people's Bibles being destroyed, ripped apart,
burned. And yes, these people think they do this as part of their
Islamic duty to get rid of this corrupted book. It is the Muslims
who breed this attitude by the concocted theory of corruption.

Thank God, Ibrahim knows better now.

Maybe they are ignorant in your view. But that is not what these
testimonies are about. One man with a theology degree from Al-Azhar
who was horribly tortured for becoming a Christian is now living
as a refugee in the USA. He is not ready yet, but I expect to
get his testimony for the web at some time maybe next year.
And there are recognized scholars who have converted, some
of which I have met personally. I could point you to their
publications (as Muslims) in academic publishing houses. But
obviously it is rather dangerous to put those out in public.
You might not believe in the deathpenalty for apostates. I know
the Ahmaduyya don't. But many Muslims do and therefore the whole
things IS DANGEROUS. I have a lot more testimonies than I display
on the web for this very reason.

But in any case, though some are not people who were highly
educated in Islam, they are all real. I do insist that all
testimonies in their entirety are true (apart from choosing
a pseudonymous name for security reasons). Not one of
them is invented to the best of my knowledge. Most of those
with email addresses I know personally. Some older ones are
>from publications and of people that are already dead, but
I try to make sure they are trustworthy. I have some
testimonies which I do not trust and therefore do not put up,
and sadly, I had to take down one testimony about which doubt
arose after I had published it (even though the person was
known to friends of mine). So I took it down again.

So, go and read and meet them via email. They are real people
whose life is very different now from what it was before.
And none of them regrets the decision, even though some of
them have lost all their family and possessions and some of
them have been tortured for their apostasy from Islam.

Jochen Katz


c.collado

unread,
May 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/1/99
to
Jochen Katz wrote in message <7g91u6$nsc$1...@waltz.rahul.net>...

>In article <7g6ku3$b4k$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
>"c.collado" <c.co...@mciworld.com> writes:
>
>> jk...@math.gatech.edu wrote in message <7g0ton$sg2$1...@waltz.rahul.net>...
>> >In article <7fsog0$gv$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,

>But I am concerned for the eternal wellbeing of a seeker after God,


>that for whatever reason he seems to go down the wrong path at this time.
>I hope I can help him by giving him facts and people to support him
>to discern the truth. That is all.


Well darnit, where were you when I was struggling with the "truth" wherein
I had spent a lifetime trying to find some pattern of truth, finding only
shreds. Actually, as I said before, I know where you were, as I became
quite familiar with your "answers" to Islam, yet I did not find the relief I
sought. People come to Islam for various reasons, and for some the
transition is easier than others, but let me assure you, it is never an easy
ordeal. I don't think any western person, having observed Christian
worship(for lack of a better term, and for lack of a better religion), wakes
up one morning, stretches, yawns, scratches, and thinks...Hmm, I think I'll
become a muslim today.
This is something you, sir, have to give consideration to, when you are
speculating on one's motivation for conversion. Someone who would readily
give up (very likely) their family relationships, old friends, habits,
false and unhealthy ideals that we were raised on(secular, not necessarily
Christian..i'm getting to that)..Those of us that don't marry into Islam,
find ourselves totally alienated from everyone at one time or another...We
have to embrace rituals that seem awkward, and amusing to spectators..and
yes, I admit..My Christian upbringing led me to fear the lightning bolt for
awhile for even considering.....These issues just scratch the surface.
Would you not agree, that one must have really found a compelling truth to
find strength to endure these sacrifices? If not ,what?
Brainwashing..classic conditiong, occultism? You have already agreed that
muslims have a bit of a different outlook on propogation than Christians;
....


>> in other words,
>> they don't need too. They DO Islam, not talk about it.
>
>You are new to this newsgroup, aren't you? There is lots of talking
>Islam here.

Right, you are..but then, this is a posting forum in cyberspace..not much
else to do but talk...anyway, it is true that not all muslims DO
Islam.....some Xtians are more pious than some muslims..vice versa..what is
important to me is that Islam is perfect, not it's followers. And btw, I am
new at posting to the group, but have been a faithful observer for quite
some time.

>> Do a real comparison on conversion rates
>> >from Muslim to Christian and vice versa.
>
>That would be an interesting thing to do, and you might be surprised. :-)

No, I would definitely not be surprised, regardless of the outcome.


>
>> Why are Christian missionaries in
>> some muslim African countries still there, after so many years, and still
no
>> Christians?


Maybe you are just not informed? I know hundreds of converts, some in
>the US, some from Africa, some from the Middle East, .... and a few of
>those I know have their testimonies on the above site. It seems you
>complained even before you looked at the evidence I provided. There are
>plenty of converts.


Well, no doubt, I am not as, and never will be as informed as you.
Admittedly, I am not among the intellectual elite here on sri. But, I still
have a right to post, and I shall try to hold my own. You know hundreds of
converts? Wouldn't it be in order to publicize ALL of their stories? I
have seen, read and met, literally hundreds of reverts to Islam in less than
a year! You have been at this a bit longer than me..and you only know
hundreds(I suspect that is inflated, anyway)

>> I wouldn't be surprised if some of those missionaries weren't
>> secretly muslims by now.
>
>If you can't get them public, you just declare them secret Muslims.
>Have a look at one such claim of secret Muslims, it is quite old:


I did not declare anything..i was merely speculating.....read it again.

>No, I don't know. You have not told me. You say you are a Muslim, but
>you have not told us WHY. You have not given any evaluation of the
>arguments and what you found convincing. I am genuinely interested
>to hear that.


This post is quite long already, and it would take pages and pages to
explain my journey. I would be happy to answer your specific questions, but
it isn't anything you haven't heard before.... ..But, alhamdullilah, sir
what a relief it is to be here, after all these years. To be truly born
again!

>Everyone is entitled to his feelings about this issue. Now, after you
>shared your feelings, maybe next time you can give some objective
>facts that made you choose Islam over following Jesus?

I love Jesus now more than I ever did, with all respect. When I was taught
that Jesus was a man, and God, I could not effectively feel anything for
him...It was too mythical for me..When I learned the truth about Jesus, it
opened up many doors to the remarkable human being that he was.

I will elaborate more later.

CC


shah_h...@hotmail.com

unread,
May 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/1/99
to
Salam Brothers and Sisters,
Jochen Katz
<jk...@math.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:7gbboq$b91$1...@waltz.rahul.net...

> It might originate in the "middle ages", but it is considered
> authoritative today by a large part of the Muslim population.
> Several Muslims on this forum regularly quote from it, and they
> are not lunatic fringe, but well respected on SRI, among them
> Mr. AbdulRahHman Lomax and Dr. Dien Rice take this as one source
> of what Islam truly represents.

Well, just because people quote from the Reliance of the Traveller doesn't
make it an authentic source Jochen. Please read 42:21, and see what is says
about following laws never ever authorized by Allah (swt). You can call me a
reform muslim or whatever name you deem ok, but the fact is that most people
in Islam follow conjecture.

"If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the
path of Allah (swt). They follow only conjecture; they only guess." 6:116

It is very easy to take advantage of all of the conjecture that muslims follow
and say that Islam is wrong due to that. One only needs to read the fully
detailed Quran (6:114) to realize that there is no compulsion in religion
whatsoever.

" There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from
the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in Allah (swt) has
grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. Allah (swt) is Hearer,
Omniscient." 2:256

So, all the apostacy laws are the result of nothing but conjecture, read 42:21
and you will realize the stiff punishment for those who institute and follow
laws never authorized by Allah (swt). If you think there is a fault in Islam
then please try to find something wrong with the Quran. That is the eternal
living Imam of Islam and it is faultless.

Allah Hafiz
Shah Hussein

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/1/99
to
On 29 Apr 1999 21:32:26 -0700, jk...@math.gatech.edu (Jochen Katz)
wrote:

>Common Sense quoted from "The Reliance of the Traveller" which


>is the standard compendium of Islamic Law of the Shafi'i school.

Ahem. Yes. Medieval theology. Thank you. My point exactly.

I too, refer to "Reliance" Jochen.

And I doubt anyone today takes it hook, line and sinker, since there
is also "law" in there that establishes pro-Arab racism, which
reflects some of the dynamics of the time.

Funny. I also read people such as Jerome, Boneventure, Aquinas, et al.
And yet, I have not met a Christian who accepts them hook, line and
sinker, though they are significant in Christian thought.

The anti-Muslims LOVE to take Medieval thought, ignoring all Muslim
self-criticism and the whole debate over "modernism" (incidentally,
which Christians themselves just went through over the past couple
centuries) and present it as some monolithic dogmatic establishment
that cannot be questioned.

Conveniently forgetting that we don't have a priesthood.....

Jochen, I've offered COUNTLESS times to provide you with my Muslim
bibliography. You've never taken me up on it. You've shown yourself
quite clearly. "Intellectual academic pursuits" are NOT one of your
strong points, to say the least.

My stuff is referenced. Refute it if you can. But you can't.

And of course, the question I've asked Jochen, also countless times,
that he has never answered: "What are your fruits?"

What are the fruits of your activities Jochen? Tell us, please. Are
the hungry being fed? No. Is there an increase in peace and tolerance?
No. Is there a healthy competition in piety and charity? No.

I ask this because Prophet Jesus, God love him, is alleged to have
said that it is by their fruits that you will know his true followers
>from the false.

Jochen's fruits?

Increased tension and hostility between two groups of people. That is,
a decrease in peace.

Not too Christ-like to my understanding. Nor to anyone else's
understanding.... even Jochen's.

But, y'know, "Deaf dumb and blind, they WILL NOT see....."

Refute my references Jochen, or don't. But please.... watching you is
like watching an alcoholic in denial. Its OBVIOUS to EVERYONE alcohol
is the problem......

.....likewise when evangelical types have such a problem with truth....
its obvious to everyone but themselves..... but God Most High tells us
about them in the Qur'an.........

bah...@geocities.com

unread,
May 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/1/99
to
jk...@math.gatech.edu wrote:
> In article <7fsog0$gv$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
> Alan Maier <al...@home.com> writes:
>
> > Does anyone know where I can find info on converting to Islam, such as
> > name changes, circumsision, how to convert, etc.? Thanks
>
> I can only say, be careful what you do, it is a one way street...

Arshad writes:
Yes. Rejecting the truth can land you in hell for eternity. Alhumdullilah he
is taking the rights steps, that will insha'Allah lead him to Paradise.


> A few Muslim articles
> on the topic of apostacy can be found in the links collected at

<SNIPPED, INFORMATION WAS INAPPROPRIATE AND BIASED>


> You can find contact
> addresses of some such converts at

<SNIPPED, INFORMATION WAS INAPPROPRIATE AND BIASED>

Arshad writes: I have deleted the links above because they link to the
Answering Islam web site, a web site filled with biased opinons and much
bigotry and hatred towards Muslims.

For our new readers here, I would like to refer you to an article posted here
to SRI:

http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=451870445

The article was called:
Jochen Katz link to hoaxes and bigotry on SRI

(Jochen Katz is the author of the Answering-Islam web site.)

Snips from that posting to SRI include:
--------------------------------------------
Visit the following URL so you can see what to look for and some of the
evil tactics these people, such as Jochen Katz use:

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/about/respond/mission.htm


The following URL showed that Jochen Katz was linked with an individual
involved in creating some truly sick verses, that he claimed were equivalent
to the Quran's verses.

http://arabia.com/content/news/6_98/fake_24.6.98.shtml


Finally if anyone does visit the Answering-Islam web site, I invite them to
visit the following web site, I like to call it the
Questioning-the-Answering-Islam web site :) :

http://idt.net/~balboa19/


>
> Jochen Katz

Arshad

Are you trying to get to Islam? Maybe this can help:
http://get.to/islam

Asad Khan

unread,
May 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/1/99
to
Assalaam alaikum!


After reading what you thought of reliance of the traveller I had to ask what you
thought of fiqh up till now in general.


Asad.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
On 1 May 1999 20:33:52 -0700, jk...@math.gatech.edu (Jochen Katz)
wrote:

>In article <7gbbov$b9q$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,

>> Now, of the testimonies, I think that one of the "big ones"
>> would be that of Abdul Saleeb's, correct?
>
>Not really. Abdul was a more or less nominal Muslim. He only
>started to read the Qur'an more seriously when he was challenged
>in his faith by Christians. But today, he has an M.A. in theology,
>working towards a PhD, and is very well versed in both Christian
>and Islamic theology. He never was a "learned Muslim" before he
>converted, but he certainly is learned today.

Funny. That isn't my experience of him at all. As anyone can see from
the "debate" (actually a critique of a book-- more evangelical
twisting) I had with him he was unable to address some of the most
simple of theological issues, such as the issue of "Godhead" in
Christian thought......

Oh! And btw, maybe you will ask "Saleeb" who Abdullah Massihi is? And
why his isn't given attribution in the book?

<snort>

<double snort>

<triple back flip snort>

How you people live with yourselves is beyond me.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
On 1 May 1999 20:34:43 -0700, ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah
McAuliffe) wrote:

>On 29 Apr 1999 21:32:26 -0700, jk...@math.gatech.edu (Jochen Katz)
>wrote:
>


>>Common Sense quoted from "The Reliance of the Traveller" which
>>is the standard compendium of Islamic Law of the Shafi'i school.
>
>Ahem. Yes. Medieval theology. Thank you. My point exactly.

Actually, a correction: Medieval jurisprudence.... not really
theology.


And go check out "Way Existential"-- new upload MP3 contemporary
Muslim music file. Its at the Dr. Jihad! Page O' Heavy Issues.

Jochen and his crew can't respond to art.... its beyond them.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
On 29 Apr 1999 21:31:49 -0700, comsen...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

We've gone through the issue of apostacy at length, ad nauseum, on
ari. There is no point in wasting time-- "pearls before swine" as the
saying goes.....

I've seen your agenda on ari..... you're transparent.......

comsen...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
May 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/4/99
to
Jeremiah McAuliffe wrote:
>
> On 29 Apr 1999 21:31:49 -0700, comsen...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> We've gone through the issue of apostacy at length, ad nauseum, on
> ari. There is no point in wasting time-- "pearls before swine" as the
> saying goes.....

Again the moderators let the insults fly.

This is typical of you when you cannot support an argument of facts, though,
Dr. McAuliffe: ad hominem. You ignore the fact that several of your
contemporaries have argued for the death penalty for apostates from Islam in
this very forum, many times citing the same Manual of Fiqh I quoted:

http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=443457055

You, an American convert who does not speak Arabic, can hardly be considered
an expert on Islamic jurisprudence. As Katz correctly pointed out, you are
inventing your own Islam. I think most Muslims would agree that Al-Azhar's
Islam is a more widely-practiced version than "Dr. Jihad's".

> I've seen your agenda on ari..... you're transparent.......

As are you. Indeed, your bias will not even allow you to admit that there are
many Muslims who disagree with you on this issue.

CS

Jochen Katz

unread,
May 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/4/99
to
In article <7ggh43$jla$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
"c.collado" <c.co...@mciworld.com> writes:

> >But I am concerned for the eternal wellbeing of a seeker after God,
> >that for whatever reason he seems to go down the wrong path at this time.
> >I hope I can help him by giving him facts and people to support him
> >to discern the truth. That is all.

> Well darnit, where were you when I was struggling with the "truth" wherein
> I had spent a lifetime trying to find some pattern of truth, finding only
> shreds. Actually, as I said before, I know where you were, as I became
> quite familiar with your "answers" to Islam, yet I did not find the relief I
> sought.

I do not remember that you ever asked me any questions.

So, I don't think you can complain that you don't get answers if
you don't take the effort to ask. We have a feedback and question
asking email address all over our website. We do not only give
out articles, we do personal correspondence as well.

I am not the person who is answering most emails, but I am sure you
knew this email address as well as my personal email address. I have
not seen anything from you until a few days ago, when your name
appeared on the newsgroup. I don't mind. It is your business whom
you want to talk to. But don't complain if you never tried.

> This is something you, sir, have to give consideration to, when you are
> speculating on one's motivation for conversion. Someone who would readily
> give up (very likely) their family relationships, old friends, habits,
> false and unhealthy ideals that we were raised on(secular, not necessarily
> Christian..i'm getting to that)..Those of us that don't marry into Islam,
> find ourselves totally alienated from everyone at one time or another...We
> have to embrace rituals that seem awkward, and amusing to spectators..and
> yes, I admit..My Christian upbringing led me to fear the lightning bolt for
> awhile for even considering.....These issues just scratch the surface.
> Would you not agree, that one must have really found a compelling truth to
> find strength to endure these sacrifices? If not ,what?

Are you agreeing that those converts from Islam to Christianity also do
go through similar (and usually tougher) hardships in their conversion?

And that they would not do so, if they hadn't found something profound,
truth that did strike them and wouldn't let them go anymore despite
the suffering involved?

> >> Do a real comparison on conversion rates
> >> >from Muslim to Christian and vice versa.
> >
> >That would be an interesting thing to do, and you might be surprised. :-)
>
> No, I would definitely not be surprised, regardless of the outcome.

That means you do not even believe what you claimed originally implicitely.
Or you don't care. If an outcome contrary to your claim does not surprise
you, then what is the value of your statement even on the claim level,
let alone on the factual?

> Maybe you are just not informed? I know hundreds of converts, some in
> >the US, some from Africa, some from the Middle East, .... and a few of
> >those I know have their testimonies on the above site. It seems you
> >complained even before you looked at the evidence I provided. There are
> >plenty of converts.

> Well, no doubt, I am not as, and never will be as informed as you.
> Admittedly, I am not among the intellectual elite here on sri. But, I still
> have a right to post, and I shall try to hold my own.

I never disputed your right to post here.

> You know hundreds of
> converts? Wouldn't it be in order to publicize ALL of their stories?

No. Just as you don't find ALL the testimony on the internet of
all the converts to Islam that you know. There are reasons not
to publish. I have noted some of them in my response to Saqib Virk.
Apart from the fact, that I have asked many to write it but for some
that isn't an easy thing to do. I have lots of promises... which often
take a long time to get on the road...

> I
> have seen, read and met, literally hundreds of reverts to Islam in less than
> a year! You have been at this a bit longer than me..and you only know
> hundreds(I suspect that is inflated, anyway)

No, it is not inflated. In Atlanta alone, we have two Iranian churches,
a couple of Arabic Churches, and in the Iranian churches alone, we have
some 50 converts. Mostly from rather secular background, but some of them
>from true Muslim background. Further, I have met converts all over the
country and am in contact with many over email.

> >No, I don't know. You have not told me. You say you are a Muslim, but
> >you have not told us WHY. You have not given any evaluation of the
> >arguments and what you found convincing. I am genuinely interested
> >to hear that.

> This post is quite long already, and it would take pages and pages to
> explain my journey. I would be happy to answer your specific questions, but
> it isn't anything you haven't heard before.... ..But, alhamdullilah, sir
> what a relief it is to be here, after all these years. To be truly born
> again!

Born again is not an islamic concept. What does this mean to you?
What kind of change do you assosciate with this expression?
And what basis does it have in the Qur'an, Hadith, Sunnah or Fiqh?

Best regards,

Jochen Katz Web Site "Answering Islam":
jk...@math.gatech.edu http://answering-islam.org/


sv...@hotmail.com

unread,
May 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/4/99
to
In article <7ggh30$jff$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
jk...@math.gatech.edu wrote:

SV


>> There are many testimonies at the site.

JK


> Indeed, because there are quite a number of people who have
> converted.

SV
Yes, unfortunately people, for various reasons, quite often
move in a direction that leads away from God. Certainly, you
must be well aware of the number of atheists who used to be
Christians.

>> They displayed only hatred and none of the attributes one
>> might associate with a good Christian. On top of that
>> they appeared to have little knowledge of Islam.

JK


> No, I have not seen them ever display hatred against Muslims.
> I have seen them make strong statements about Islam, but should
> we not hate falsehood and evil? As they see it, these people have
> been robbed many years of their life by this deception.

SV
That is exactly the point I was making when I said that the
Muslims who become Christians behave much like Christians
who become atheists but when I made the comparison you refused
to agree:

--------
SAQIB


> A Christian who converts to Islam does not give up their love
> for Jesus(pbuh) but it seems a Muslim who converts to
> Christianity has to develop hatred for Muhammad(pbuh). I have
> noticed the converts to Islam are not nearly as aggressive
> towards Christianity. At least that has been my experience
> on a Muslim-Christian mailing list and you could probably admit
> to the fact as well.
>

> The behaviour of the converts from Islam to Christianity is
> quite similar to the behaviour of converts from Christianity
> to atheism. There are many among both groups who feel the need
> to lash out at their former religion.

JOCHEN


I discern quite some difference, but there is no point in
debating personal impressions.

-------

SV
It seems there might be less difference than you were willing
to admit. The hatred, which you feel Christians who used to be
Muslims have for Islam, is quite apparent when one speaks to
them.

JK


> Should they not hate it now that they see what it is and what
> it still does to countless Muslims, leading them astray and
> keeping them from the truth?

SV
It is the same sort of hatred many atheists feel towards
Christianity. They also believe they wasted much of their life
and resent their former religion. I believe that you will not
find the same attitude coming from most Christians who convert
to Islam. I say this based only on my personal experiences of
Muslim-Christian-Atheist dialogue on various internet email
lists and newsgroups over the last three(or so) years. I have
had discussions with many ex-Christian atheists, a few
ex-Christian Muslims and a few ex-Muslim Christians. (In person,
I have met a few Christians who converted to Islam but never
the other way around.)

JK


> You are talking about Walid and Ibrahim. I have seen them
> interact with Muslims personally (not internet) and I know
> they do not hate, even though they have been full of hate
> while still Muslims, that is true. Both of them are Arabs.
> They can be very blunt at times, very strong language,
> just as you see it from the Muslim Arabs on the newsgroups.
> Why would you put different standards on them as you put on
> your Muslim brothers?

SV
How is it that you imagine I am applying different standards?
I said: "They(the Christians) displayed only hatred and none of


the attributes one might associate with a good Christian. On
top of that they appeared to have little knowledge of Islam".

>From that statement you somehow come up with the idea that
I am applying different standards to Christians than I might
to Muslim Arabs.

JK


> But hate? No. By the way, I put put Walid into the "semi big"
> category.
>

<snip>


>
> I recommend you read his book some times, it is at
> http://answering-islam.org/Walid/ I don't agree with
> everything he says but he has a lot of excellent points.

SV
That is completely false and you should know it. While Walid
was on a Muslim-Christian dialogue list I saw him interacting
with other Muslims first hand over a period of several months.
He started out fine but it didn't take long for him to show
his true colors. By the end of his time on the list he was
having a fit. One of his last posts to the list ended with,
and I quote: "Fire and Brimstone, that is the only message I
have for you, then you shall see who will foam at the mouth
>from the heat of hell."

I have gone through some of the list archive just to make sure
I had not exaggerated things in my own mind but I have not.
Walid was quite simply uneducated about Islam and many of his
posts were venomous. He seriously offered to wrestle or box
any Muslim who thought that Christians were wimps. :) In his
defence, I believe he was responding to a 16 year old Muslim
who commented that Walid should be crucified.

He also, compared Muslims to Nazi's and called Muhammad(pbuh)
a quack.

Of the converts from Islam to Christianity that I have had the
chance to speak with, most have a deep dislike of Islam that
comes through very clearly. I have not witnessed the same thing
with converts from Christianity to Islam. They, for the most
part, are much more calmer, reasonable and thoughtful. Though
you will not be able to bring yourself to admit it, I think you
believe the same thing.

>> Reading down his testimony it becomes obvious that he also
>> has little understanding.

JK


> You seem not to understand the purpose nor the nature of these
> testimonies. I have never ever said you should convert from
> Islam to Christianity because these people converted or because
> of the reasons these people did. Some of the reasons are shallow.
> I agree. But testimonies are about real life, not about writing
> a PhD dissertation on comparative religion and apologetics.
> They are much more about life struggles.

SV
I do understand the reasons you often refer to the testimonies.
In this particular case it was used as a tool in an attempt to
keep someone from converting to Islam. That is why I objected
to the false information about Islam in those testimonies. If
the testimonies are not supposed to be about comparative religion
or apologetics why are using them for those purposes?

>> What I don't understand is how someone, who must have taken the
>> time to study these things and examine his reasons for leaving
>> Islam, could not have realised the Quran does not forbid
>> friendships with Christians.

JK


> Well, it says in plain language, do NOT take them as friends.
> And this hit him because he had good Christian friends.

SAQIB
This is exactly what I meant when I said he had little
understanding. Was he incapable of reading the rest of the surah?
Does he not understand Arabic? Shouldn't he have made some
small effort to learn what the Quran was saying if it actually
had bothered him? It would not have taken much for him to
realise he was mistaken.

JK


> You try to find something that is weak in your eyes, and
> then run with it, instead of tackling the strong points.

SAQIB
I picked the first testimony at the site. Then I picked one that
had the Christian convert debating a Muslim convert so I thought
that person must be one of the so-called "big ones". As for weak
and strong, I thought the testimonies that I read were all weak.
Some of them were purely emotional and there was nothing to
judge. Those that actually tried to provide some rational points
were faulty. Their reasoning was simplistic and I just found it
hard to imagine that they chose to go to the trouble of converting
when it should have been much easier for them to find answers to
the problems they had with Islam.

>> Is he really so ignorant or is he just a Christian
>> propagandist?

JK


> Neither. He is a serious academically minded person with
> a lot more credentials than you will probably ever have.

SAQIB
You pretty much admitted that he was ignorant of Islam when he
chose to leave the religion. I do not know what he understands
of Islam now and was only judging by his testimony which
reveals his ignorance.

>> Can anybody tell me what kind of person uses the Bible as a
>> footstool? If such a person becomes Christian, can we say he
>> was ever a Muslim to begin with?

JK


> There are lots of Muslims who love to show their contempt for the
> Bible in one way or other.

SV
Maybe so, but doesn't such behaviour prove they have no
understanding of Islam? Should such people be considered
ex-Muslims if they convert to another religion?

JK


> Thank God, Ibrahim knows better now.

SV
He may now know that he shouldn't put his feet on the Bible
but does he know that he should not have done it when he
was a Muslim either? If someone claims that as a Christian
they used to worship three Gods, what would you think? You
would "know" that person was never a Christian.

JK


> It is the Muslims who breed this attitude by the concocted
> theory of corruption.

SV
Christian and ex-Christian scholars are busy reporting
corruption of the Bible text and you imagine that the theory
of such corruption is concocted? The entire ending of Mark's
Gospel is corruption, is it not? Don't the majority of Biblical
scholars agree that it is a fabrication or corruption?

For those who may be interested, below are links leading to
the stories of many people who became Muslims.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/newmuslims/
http://www.gabn.net/hassan/converts.htm
http://members.aol.com/IslamTeam/convv.htm

Jochen Katz

unread,
May 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/4/99
to
In article <7ggh4j$jo9$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) writes:

> On 29 Apr 1999 21:32:26 -0700, jk...@math.gatech.edu (Jochen Katz)
> wrote:
>
> >Common Sense quoted from "The Reliance of the Traveller" which
> >is the standard compendium of Islamic Law of the Shafi'i school.
>
> Ahem. Yes. Medieval theology. Thank you. My point exactly.
>

> I too, refer to "Reliance" Jochen.

For 'historical interest' or for standard and guidance?

> And I doubt anyone today takes it hook, line and sinker, since there
> is also "law" in there that establishes pro-Arab racism, which
> reflects some of the dynamics of the time.

All the worse.

But, I was looking over the book, and nowhere did I see a 'caution'
that this book was published mainly as a documentation of what
medieval jurisprudence WAS like. From the preface and introductory
chapters it seemed to me very much that this is what IS Islamic law,
not what it once was, but no longer is.

Sure, some laws are inapplicable for Muslims in America, because
you don't live in an Islamic state, but my impression is that this
would be all valid again, if there ever were an Islamic state.

Is that not so?

Otherwise, why is there in the footnotes no comment at all about
"not taking it hook, line and sinker? I didn't find any such
cautioning. It seems to be the author does expect this to be
very much an authoritative source of Islamic law for TODAY just
as in the past.

> Funny. I also read people such as Jerome, Boneventure, Aquinas, et al.
> And yet, I have not met a Christian who accepts them hook, line and
> sinker, though they are significant in Christian thought.

These have a very different issues. They are not law. They are
thehology. That is a HUGE difference. Christians do not have
a law code. We do not have an expectation of a Christian state
in the New Testament.

And the issue is, what different "sources" do you have in Islam
today than you had 1400 years ago to base new laws on?

> The anti-Muslims LOVE to take Medieval thought, ignoring all Muslim
> self-criticism and the whole debate over "modernism" (incidentally,
> which Christians themselves just went through over the past couple
> centuries) and present it as some monolithic dogmatic establishment
> that cannot be questioned.
>
> Conveniently forgetting that we don't have a priesthood.....

Again, priesthood and Ulema of Islamic jurisdiction is something very
different. And priests never had the position of Ulema anyway. They
were not giving legal rulings, they had no legal power.

What is your point of comparison?

> Jochen, I've offered COUNTLESS times to provide you with my Muslim
> bibliography. You've never taken me up on it. You've shown yourself
> quite clearly. "Intellectual academic pursuits" are NOT one of your
> strong points, to say the least.
>
> My stuff is referenced. Refute it if you can. But you can't.

Cheap come-back. You have hardly ever given refutations of what
I wrote. Your responses are replete with ad hominems and little
more.

> And of course, the question I've asked Jochen, also countless times,
> that he has never answered: "What are your fruits?"

You won't see it, even if I told you. A man will never see what he
has determined not to see. But then, I am not working for you and
I am not accountable to you.

> What are the fruits of your activities Jochen? Tell us, please. Are
> the hungry being fed?

Yes. I do support feeding the hungry, too. Do you want to see the
receipts from Food for the Hungry? How many hungry are fed by your
hundreds of flame postings on ARI? You know, the saying of the
splinter and the log?

> I ask this because Prophet Jesus, God love him, is alleged to have
> said that it is by their fruits that you will know his true followers
> >from the false.
>
> Jochen's fruits?

There are a good number of people who do thank me a lot. Nothing that
you would understand.

> Increased tension and hostility between two groups of people. That is,
> a decrease in peace.

Where have you done anything to establish peace? You are a constant
dispatcher of bad vibes. You are attacking, arrogant, flamer. You are
one of the handful of people who were the nastiest of all in responses
to my postings. I am not sure you are the person to talk about this
issue.

> Not too Christ-like to my understanding. Nor to anyone else's
> understanding.... even Jochen's.
>
> But, y'know, "Deaf dumb and blind, they WILL NOT see....."

You are giving self-descriptions here?

> Refute my references Jochen, or don't.

Why don't you give me something from YOURSELF to discuss? What is that
about refuting your references? I am not here to refute books by a bunch
of dead guys. I am dealing with the real Islamic arguments that move
Muslims. Make a real argument, and I might discuss it. But I have rarely
seen anything substantial from you.

> But please.... watching you is
> like watching an alcoholic in denial. Its OBVIOUS to EVERYONE alcohol
> is the problem......

Thank you, but I don't drink. It is you who is staggering about in
this thread.

> ......likewise when evangelical types have such a problem with truth....


> its obvious to everyone but themselves..... but God Most High tells us
> about them in the Qur'an.........

You have often accused me, but never shown me where I have lied.
Your accusations are very cheap, and by now, hardly anybody will
buy them anymore.

Stop the baseless attacks. Give factual content to your messages.
Some people might then actually have increased respect for you.
Show yourself worthy of your PhD and present content instead of
ad hominems.

Jochen Katz

Jochen Katz

unread,
May 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/4/99
to
In article <7ggh4d$jn3$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
bah...@geocities.com writes:

> jk...@math.gatech.edu wrote:

> > A few Muslim articles
> > on the topic of apostacy can be found in the links collected at
>
> <SNIPPED, INFORMATION WAS INAPPROPRIATE AND BIASED>

You crack me up. Did you READ what I said? I collected links
to various Muslim sites discussing the issue. For all it is worth,
I might even have links to your site. [I haven't checked, but I have
links to hundreds of Muslim sites]. Do they become inappropriate
and biased just because they are linked from my site? If that is
true, then the majority of Muslim sites would become haram and have
to close down.

> > You can find contact
> > addresses of some such converts at
>
> <SNIPPED, INFORMATION WAS INAPPROPRIATE AND BIASED>
>
> Arshad writes: I have deleted the links above because they link to the
> Answering Islam web site, a web site filled with biased opinons and much
> bigotry and hatred towards Muslims.

Now, for the second one, I could understand it. Because those are
Christian articles of convert stories. But the Muslim links on
apostacy above? Do you read my text before you react what is supposed
to be a response?

> For our new readers here, I would like to refer you to an article posted here
> to SRI:
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=451870445
>
> The article was called:
> Jochen Katz link to hoaxes and bigotry on SRI
>
> (Jochen Katz is the author of the Answering-Islam web site.)
>
> Snips from that posting to SRI include:

... etc. lots of baseless nonsense repeated to which I have
responded already many times.

You can find my response here:

http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=452152858 [March 7, 1999]
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=366408679 (lot older but similar topic)

This next one is also one of your recent accusations you still
owe me an apology for or evidence for your charges:

http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=455119385 [March 14, 1999]

You also still owe me the contact to your claimed priest who
became a Muslim, and the other 27 priests that converted...

http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=367730655

Was that claim true or not? You never gave a contact address
of even one of them. Could it be that they were all made up?

I think these are enough assignments from the past for you to
work on.

Jochen Katz


Fariduddien Rice

unread,
May 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/5/99
to
Assalamu alaikum,

I was very busy most of last week, and didn't have time to read SRI, let
alone post. However, this issue of apostasy seems to be mentioned a lot
recently, so I went back to find one of the earlier posts on this
topic....

On 28 Apr 1999 comsen...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

[...]

> Here's an excerpt from an Islamic manual of Fiqh (Islamic Sacred Law), dealing
> with apostacy (ridda). No "manipulation" is necessary.....

[...deletions...]

> o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily
> apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.
>
> o8.2 In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (A: or his
> representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does,
> it is accepted from him but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.
>
> o8.3 If he is a freeman, no one besides the caliph or his
> representative may kill him. If someone else kills him, the killer is
> disciplined (def: o17)(O: for arrogating the caliph's prerogative and
> encroaching upon his rights, as this is one of his duties).

Note sections o8.2 and o8.3. It appears from this, that within the
Shafi'i madhhab, punishment for apostasy cannot be applied unless
there is a caliph....

If there is no caliph, it does not seem that this law can be applied. In
the present-day, therefore, the topic seems to be mainly hypothetical, at
least according the the Shafi'i viewpoint as it seems to be expounded in
the "Reliance." This is because, it is generally agreed that there is no
caliph in our present times.

Also, pay special attention to section o8.3. This says that no-one,
except the caliph or his representative, may carry out the punishment for
apostasy. It is not a "free-for-all" as many people wrongly imagine. The
person accused of apostasy must be found guilty in court of this, and then
the punishment must be applied by the caliph or his representative.

With no caliph, in our times, this topic seems to be purely hypothetical.

[...lengthy quote from the "Reliance" deleted...]

> As I said: no "twisting" necessary. A few Islamic websites which discuss


> apostasy:
>
> http://islam.org:81/imam/nsearch.htm is a search engine. You can specify
> question number in the search: questions 3244, 2797, 2556, and 1748 deal with
> apostasy.
>
> Also see:
> http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostacy.htm

Neither of these links worked for me, so I cannot comment on them.

[...]

> According to "Reliance of the Traveller", music is forbidden in Islam.

More correctly, this should probably say something like,

According to "Reliance of the Traveller," music is forbidden in Islam

according to the Shafi'i madhhab.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There are other opinions in other madhhabs, with different conditions as
for when it is permissable, etc. Since each of the 4 [Sunni] madhhabs -
Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali - accepts the other madhhabs as
also being acceptable alternative interpretations of Islam, "Common
Sense's" statement above is not quite correct. His statement is way too
general.


Wassalamu alaikum,

__________________________________________________________________________

Fariduddien Rice Email : dien@@rice.net (remove one @ symbol)

http://www.haqq.com.au/~salam/
__________________________________________________________________________


Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/5/99
to
On 4 May 1999 03:24:41 -0700, comsen...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> Indeed, your bias will not even allow you to admit that there are
>many Muslims who disagree with you on this issue.

So weak, its barely worth the time to write "I've never denied this".
As everyone knows, I can be quite critical of contemporary Muslim
group behavior, thoughts, attitudes, and theology.

Indeed, I think I often make disparaging remarks about those who rely
on Medieval theology....

Yet another straw man shot down.

So easy, its like takin' candy from a kid.

References are at my web site. Just cause you, Jochen, and those like
you are not intellectualy up to the task of actually refuting anything
hardly means I made anything up.

Again (how many times have I written this over the years???) I'm happy
to provide you with a more extensive bibliography when you are done
checking and refuting the references at my web site.

I'll wait. But won't hold my breath, because I know you are not up to
the task.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/5/99
to
On 4 May 1999 03:46:53 -0700, jk...@math.gatech.edu (Jochen Katz)
wrote:

>In article <7ggh4j$jo9$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
>ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) writes:
>

>> I too, refer to "Reliance" Jochen.
>
>For 'historical interest' or for standard and guidance?

Both. They go hand in hand. Why do you think I know the writings of
the ancient Christian desert fathers and mothers? Why do you think I
read Tauler, Boneventure, Jerome, Pseudo-Dionesius, T. of Avila, T. of
Liseux, J. of the Cross, Merton, Brown, and on and on and on.

So too I read in the history of Muslim thought.

And I read philosophy, and psychology, and sociology, and art, and all
sorts of things. And that is why you are unable to respond adequately
to my material but can only offer this lame-- very lame-- "he made it
up".

Bizarre! When references are provided, and bibliographies are offered
and the best they can do is "he made it up". Its delusional, really.


>
>> And I doubt anyone today takes it hook, line and sinker, since there
>> is also "law" in there that establishes pro-Arab racism, which
>> reflects some of the dynamics of the time.
>
>All the worse.
>
>But, I was looking over the book, and nowhere did I see a 'caution'
>that this book was published mainly as a documentation of what
>medieval jurisprudence WAS like. From the preface and introductory
>chapters it seemed to me very much that this is what IS Islamic law,
>not what it once was, but no longer is.

You see what you want to see-- which is through clear eyes of
prejudice.

Now, you are going to say the same to me. You are correct. However, as
has been pointed out, I have academic validity that has not been
challenged. You do not. Also, as I've testified, I prayed to God for
guidance for many years. So, either God is a trickster who lied in the
Gospels (since as you know, when I prayed for guidance from God I
referred in my prayer to the Gospel's "knock and you shall receive"
idea) or I am authentic. Which is it, Jochen? I did what the Gospels
said to do and I was led, by God's kindness, to the Qur'an, which I
recognized because I was a sincere believer in the Transcendent
Benevolence-- not a sincere believer in dogmas about the Transcendent.

So what is it Jochen? In my case was God a trickster? Handing me a
stone when I asked for bread? Or am I authentic.

Also--- what I've said to you before, as told by God to say to the
likes of you: Wait. I too am waiting. God Himself will tell us of
these disputes, which is fine by me.

>You have often accused me, but never shown me where I have lied.

Ah, yes! ANOTHER issue Jochen ignores and ANOTHER question asked of
him countless times he has never ventured to answer:

Tell us, Jochen, what is the difference between "cash-register"
honesty and "existential" honesty?

Also, still waiting to hear about your fruits..... y'know, so we can
tell if you are really following Jesus or not.... just like he is
alleged to have directed us. To paraphrase: not everyone who talks the
talk, walks the walk. You, Jochen, and those like you, do not walk the
walk. Your fruits prove it. Because we KNOW what your fruits are,
don't we? A decrease in peace. Way to go.


Perhaps you would like to listen to "Way Existential"--- a terrific
contemporary Muslim song (look up "music" in Reliance Jochen) now
available at my site in the MP3 format-- there is a long version and a
short version.

http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/mp3/menump3.htm

Art is beyond you though, isn't it? I bet you only like landscapes and
can't comprehend the work of, say, a Robert Rauschenberg. (Y'know, I
met him once.)

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/5/99
to
BTW, I'll say it again: we don't have priests who give "official"
interpretations of the Qur'an in light of the sunnah.


Al-Azhar appears to be a dinosaur-- somewhat dead and irrelevant. I'll
debate anyone with a degree from there.......

Pen1418hj

unread,
May 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/5/99
to
>Where have you done anything to establish peace? You are a constant
>dispatcher of bad vibes. You are attacking, arrogant, flamer. You are
>one of the handful of people who were the nastiest of all in responses
>to my postings

Jochen speaks as if he's "entitled" to something from Brother Jeremiah. Well,
Jochen, what is it that you want from Muslims?

Do you want us to convert wholesale to Christianity? Is that the ultimate
intent of "answeringislam.org"? Do you want us to see "the error of our ways"?

Plain and simple, Jochen: You provoke. You have provoked me into writing this
message. For one as seemingly bright as yourself to miss the point here can
only mean that evil lies in your hands.


pen1418hj

Alburhaan2

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
Subject: Re: conversion info...
From: Fariduddien Rice

>On 28 Apr 1999 comsen...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>Note sections o8.2 and o8.3. It appears from this, that within the
>Shafi'i madhhab, punishment for apostasy cannot be applied unless
>there is a caliph....

Note the loopholes in sectarian Islam. Something this serious that involves the
life of a human being, where only one madh-hab advocates the killing of an
apostate (only when there is a khlifah). What about the other three madh-hab's?
Do they allow it w/o a khalifah or do they not allow it at all?

>> According to "Reliance of the Traveller", music is forbidden in
>> Islam.

>More correctly, this should probably say something like,
>
> According to "Reliance of the Traveller," music is forbidden in Islam
> according to the Shafi'i madhhab.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Once more, a big loophole. The difference between halaal and haram, permited
and forbidden. If you want to listen to music w/o guilt then follow the other
madh-habs. Each madh-hab seems to have its own god.

Here is the kicker:


>Since each of the 4 [Sunni] madhhabs -
>Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali - accepts the other madhhabs as
>also being acceptable alternative interpretations of Islam,

I can understand if the subject is really a less serious matter subject to
intepretation. But matters of haram vs. halal and killing vs. sparing are not
subject to interpretation. One could mean the difference between duty to Allah
and murder. Yet they appease each other by saying they accept each other even
though they differ on core issues.

This is a mockery of God's laws. The Qur'an clearly makes it unacceptable to
kill an apostate. See4:137 for example. As for music, It existed long before
the Qur'an was revealed. If God had anything against music then the Qur'an
would have stated so. This madh-hab flip flopping is only a loophole created in
Islamic law by the sectarians to escape the guilt of violating God's law.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
On 5 May 1999 03:26:42 -0700, Fariduddien Rice

>Note sections o8.2 and o8.3. It appears from this, that within the
>Shafi'i madhhab, punishment for apostasy cannot be applied unless
>there is a caliph....

Salaams to my good brother,

Of course, the anti-Muslims already know this..... they've been told
it is an issue of statecraft....... they just ignore it.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
On 5 May 1999 05:38:00 -0700, pen1...@aol.com (Pen1418hj) wrote:

>>Where have you done anything to establish peace? You are a constant
>>dispatcher of bad vibes. You are attacking, arrogant, flamer. You are
>>one of the handful of people who were the nastiest of all in responses
>>to my postings

I'm gonna assume the above is from Jochen, directed towards me, though
the original post has not yet shown here.

1. I'm not the issue. You are.

2. I'm not the one who has made a career out of attacking another
group. You are.

3. I'm not on Christian newsgroups, and I don't have a web site
dedicated only to a tit-for-tat among under-educated dogmatists. You
do.

4. Refute the academic sources or do not. If you can't, have the
integrity to admit it-- and then you might actually learn something of
benefit to you.

5. I produce things in praise of the Creator: music, graphics, words.
You do not.

6. Insha Allah, God Himself will tell you of other things I
do.........

7. I admit my sin, inadequacies, defects of character, hypocrisy, and
poor practice of religion, and sometimes jerky behavior and s-a
tendencies. You do not.

8. I prayed to the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus for guidance, as
promised in the Gospels. I listened for it. You did not.

9. And again, for added stress. you don't find ME making a life out of
attacking other's beliefs. You are the one who has done that.

Simple points. All true. All instructive.


You need to change Jochen. Even as a Christian.......

Bollywood Anwar

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
On 4 May 1999, Jochen Katz wrote:

> No, it is not inflated. In Atlanta alone, we have two Iranian churches,
> a couple of Arabic Churches, and in the Iranian churches alone, we have
> some 50 converts. Mostly from rather secular background, but some of them
> >from true Muslim background. Further, I have met converts all over the
> country and am in contact with many over email.

I'm not denying this may be true. Let me mention, however, that many (if
not most) of the Arabs that you'll find in North America are Christian to
begin with (ie. of Christian background). This is not due to
"persecution" as much as it is the fact that Arab Christians in Lebanon
and Palestine are generally better-off financially than their Muslim
counterparts and they have smaller families, which makes it easier for
them to emigrate. Thus when the war began in Lebanon, a large number of
the Christians there fled to North America. You'll find a large
Lebanese Christian diaspora community here in Toronto, for example.
The point I'm making here is that I'm more than certain that the Arabic
churches that you're talking about contain members that were Christian to
begin with, with the converts being the very rare exception.

But again, I've never been one of the Muslims that defiantly denies your
claims of "hundreds of converts" that you personally know. As I've said
before, it would be nothing surprising. The Qur'an tells us over and
over again that idolatry is a human weakness, a mental and spiritual
illness and disease that mankind has a bad habit of relapsing into.
Despite all the Messengers that God has sent to remind us to worship Him
and Him alone, we have a bad habit of being inclined to create partners
with Him. As such, we Muslims should not be terribly surprised if we find
that there might be some Muslim converts to Christianity. It only proves
what the Qur'an has said-- people rejoice when they are told that God has
partners. Despite the warning and command of God to worship Him (One
God), many of us wish to worship more. It should not be a big surprise
if weak-willed Muslims relapse into idolatry by worshipping the
Christian trinity godhood. This is an unfortunate fulfillment of God's
warnings when we do not hold fast to His reminders.


> Born again is not an islamic concept. What does this mean to you?
> What kind of change do you assosciate with this expression?
> And what basis does it have in the Qur'an, Hadith, Sunnah or Fiqh?

"Born again" is not an Islamic *term*, but the *concept* of it does exist.
It is verified by the hadith in which the Prophet states that a
newly-converted Muslim is as sinless as a baby. In other words, the
person's previous sins are forgiven and they are allowed to start their
life with a clean spiritual slate. Of course, I would personally not
employ the term "born again" so as not to confuse it with the Christian
concept of it, which is admittedly quite different. Unlike the "born
again" concept in Christianity, Islam does not guarantee nor expect
"instant sainthood" from the believer.

Peace,

- Sadat


Jochen Katz

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
In article <7gp6dv$nj1$1...@bolero.rahul.net>,
ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) writes:

> BTW, I'll say it again: we don't have priests who give "official"
> interpretations of the Qur'an in light of the sunnah.

Then, could you tell me what a fatwa is?

Are fatwas in any sense official or binding or are they
just personal opinions no other Muslim is supposed to
care about?

Are they not rather similar to legal decisions of courts
in the US? The issue was never priestly interpretation of
theological issues, the point was legal decisions, and
legally binding ones, i.e. law, not opions about the law.
Your opinion about the laws of the US is rather personal
and non-binding. A judges decision and pronouncement is
binding.

Do you say that there neither was nor is anybody that can
give Islamic law that Muslims are supposed to follow?

Then how does an Islamic state function if those legal
pronouncements are no more than non-official opinions?

> Al-Azhar appears to be a dinosaur-- somewhat dead and irrelevant. I'll
> debate anyone with a degree from there.......

I want to see that. But probably all those Al-Azhar graduates
and teachers are afraid to debate Jeremiah McAuliffe, Khalifa
in spe.

Or maybe, perhaps the reason is that they think your opinions
are rather personal and irrelevant? Why give him the recognition
is if he had something to say by agreeing to debate him? That
sounds more like it.

If you ask me, I venture to say, that Jeremiah will avoid dealing
with these questions as he usually does with issues like these.
But we will see.

And don't point me instead to your music and art web site.
Give a reasoned response.

Jochen Katz


Jochen Katz

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
In article <7gp6dq$nia$1...@bolero.rahul.net>,
ali...@city-net.com (Jeremiah McAuliffe) writes:

[about the Reliance of the Traveller]


> >But, I was looking over the book, and nowhere did I see a 'caution'
> >that this book was published mainly as a documentation of what
> >medieval jurisprudence WAS like. From the preface and introductory
> >chapters it seemed to me very much that this is what IS Islamic law,
> >not what it once was, but no longer is.
>
> You see what you want to see-- which is through clear eyes of
> prejudice.
>
> Now, you are going to say the same to me. You are correct. However, as
> has been pointed out, I have academic validity that has not been
> challenged. You do not.

It sure is challenged. You don't show academic behavior. You don't
discuss the content issues that are raised here, you only CLAIM
academic validity, you don't show it.

Show yourself superior by giving superior arguments of content.
Not the repetitive claim that you read many books and therefore
you are right.

No, I am not going to see what I want to see. I am asking you
specifically: On what page in this 800 or more page manual do
you see any hint that these rulings are given only for historical
interest and are not to be taken at face value and are no longer
valid today?

I am going to read those pages and acknowledge that you are right
if you can give me the section numbers where this is stated.

Until then, what I have seen is that this is offered as Islamic
law as it IS, not only as it WAS.

Show me otherwise from this book, the intro, the footnotes, or
the text. Or even another publication or article by the author
sheikh Keller. If you cannot, then it is pretty clear that I am
right and all your claimed academic qualifications won't change
it that this book is given to the Muslim public as valid Islamic
law for today.

The fact that some of it is not possible to be performed today
since there is no Khalifa, is another issue. That is an outward
circumstance, not a judgment on the law. If the Muslims were able
to have an Islamic state and a Khalifa tomorrow. Would they consider
this manual as valid law throughout, or would they consider it only
of historical interest?

And, if they would have a Khalifa and an Islamic state, WHICH LAW
would be the law of the land? Can you tell me that on the basis
of your wide reading?

> Also, as I've testified, I prayed to God for
> guidance for many years. So, either God is a trickster who lied in the
> Gospels (since as you know, when I prayed for guidance from God I
> referred in my prayer to the Gospel's "knock and you shall receive"
> idea) or I am authentic. Which is it, Jochen? I did what the Gospels
> said to do and I was led, by God's kindness, to the Qur'an, which I
> recognized because I was a sincere believer in the Transcendent
> Benevolence-- not a sincere believer in dogmas about the Transcendent.
>
> So what is it Jochen? In my case was God a trickster? Handing me a
> stone when I asked for bread? Or am I authentic.

Not an easy question. I don't know how sincere you were. But
then, I know very many sincere Muslims who became sincere
Christians.

If you were right, was God a trickster in their case?
I don't know why you made decisions one way or other,
but certainly your personal decisions and what you think
was guidance from God is not the measure and standard on
which truth is decided.

> >You have often accused me, but never shown me where I have lied.
>
> Ah, yes! ANOTHER issue Jochen ignores and ANOTHER question asked of
> him countless times he has never ventured to answer:
>
> Tell us, Jochen, what is the difference between "cash-register"
> honesty and "existential" honesty?

All this has been discussed with you many times. It isn't that
I have not responded to your accusations.

http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=420505065
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=419497178
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=412686552
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=417694917
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=418806109
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=419497178
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=417178933
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=225011905

These are some discussions with Jeremiah on the issue of honesty
and they speak for themselves. No need to repeat it all. Archives
are something wonderful.

Jochen Katz


Paul O Bartlett

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
SECOND attempt. It never showed up on DejaNews.

On Sat, 1 May 1999 Jeremiah McAuliffe wrote (excerpted,
and addressing Jochen Katz):

> What are the fruits of your activities Jochen? Tell us, please. Are

> the hungry being fed? No. Is there an increase in peace and tolerance?
> No. Is there a healthy competition in piety and charity? No.

Whatever may be the fruits of Jochen Katz I will leave for God to
judge. I certainly have no such knowledge. However, my observation
has been that Usenet newsgroups tend to give a rather tendentious and
biased sample of people in general. There have been times when I
thought some of Mr. Katz's posts were not sufficiently relevant to
Islam to warrant posting on the group. Obviously in those cases the
moderators and I disagreed. However, I am not willing to say that his
posts are all bad. And I for one will not presume to judge his
motives. Once again, I will leave that judgment up to God. Anyone
else?

> But, y'know, "Deaf dumb and blind, they WILL NOT see....."

Many people have claimed others to be "deaf dumb and blind" merely
because they disagree.

> .....likewise when evangelical types have such a problem with truth....
> its obvious to everyone but themselves..... but God Most High tells us
> about them in the Qur'an.........

I for one grow a bit weary with those, Muslim, Christian, or
whoever, who seem to impute some combination of base motives and/or
willful spiritual blindness to those who disagree. "God Most High
tells us about them in the Qur'an." Indeed. For those who already
believe that the Qur'an is the infallibly revealed word of God. To
those who do not already so believe, things appear rather different. I
have observed Muslims who seem rather obstinate about things, and some
Christians might similarly accuse them of willful stubbornness in their
refusal to believe the truth of Christianity which is right in front of
them if they would only open their eyes. Merely making accusations
about the motives of those who disagree gets us nowhere.

--
Paul <bart...@smart.net>
..........................................................
Paul O. Bartlett, P.O. Box 857, Vienna, VA 22183-0857, USA
Keyserver (0xF383C8F9) or WWW for PGP public key
Home Page: http://www.smart.net/~bartlett

Bollywood Anwar

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
> jk...@math.gatech.edu wrote:

> >> What I don't understand is how someone, who must have taken the
> >> time to study these things and examine his reasons for leaving
> >> Islam, could not have realised the Quran does not forbid
> >> friendships with Christians.
>
> JK
> > Well, it says in plain language, do NOT take them as friends.
> > And this hit him because he had good Christian friends.


I don't care if you describe Walid as an "academically-minded person with
a lot of credentials"... If he can't understand the context in which the
Qur'an tells the believers not to befriend the Christians/Jews, then he
has not taken the time to do a proper study of the text.

Does it make SENSE to you that I can have a Christian WIFE, but not a
Christian FRIEND? Just sit down and think about that, Jochen. Does it
make sense? I can have a Christian wife, but not a Christian friend? If
Walid and others took the time to ponder over these questions, they would
understand the *context* and the *situation* in which we are not to
befriend the non-believers. If he honestly left Islam because he believed
that his religion "doesn't allow him to keep Christian friends", he is
either not an "academically-minded person" OR he is an academically-minded
person who has not taken the time to do an academic or proper study of
Islam and the Qur'an. As Saqib put it:

> Was he (Walid) incapable of reading the rest of the surah?


> Does he not understand Arabic? Shouldn't he have made some
> small effort to learn what the Quran was saying if it actually
> had bothered him?


- Sadat

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
On 6 May 1999 03:57:17 -0700, jk...@math.gatech.edu (Jochen Katz)
wrote:


>It sure is challenged. You don't show academic behavior.'

<laughing sadly> I only laugh because your damnation is of your own
doing. "Sloth"-- one of the Seven Deadly Sins-- is the failure to
engage the issues..... its what is destroying your soul, by your own
hand.

Here is a start, dude:

Faruqi

Rahman

Rahmen

Ahmed

Rumi

Ghazali

al-Jilani

Asad

Murata

Mernissi

D. Brown

Maududi

Qaradawi

Lings

Nasr

Armstrong

Esposito

Lewis

Heidegger

Gurwitsch

van Kaam

Becker

Rank

Lifton

Voegelin


Gimme a call when you're done. Don't worry. I won't be holding my
breath.

Allahu akbar!

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
On 6 May 1999 03:57:06 -0700, jk...@math.gatech.edu (Jochen Katz)
wrote:


>And don't point me instead to your music and art web site.
>Give a reasoned response.

This is another of your problems. You don't know the limits of reason.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
On 6 May 1999 03:57:34 -0700, Paul O Bartlett <bart...@smart.net>
wrote:

>Once again, I will leave that judgment up to God. Anyone
>else?

We leave ultimate, existential judgement to God. But we too judge, and
to deny it is to deny reality and your *responsiblity* to judge. Yes.
Responsiblity.

Someone who steals regularly may be sick, but may also just be a bad
person: a thief.

Are you telling me, in a naively idealistic way, that we (and society)
should not judge people?

A believer judges-- as best they can-- in order to distinguish the
good from the evil from the sick from the ignorant. This is because we
are to forbid evil and enjoin the good. This entails acts of
judgement.

> I for one grow a bit weary with those, Muslim, Christian, or
>whoever, who seem to impute some combination of base motives and/or
>willful spiritual blindness to those who disagree.

We are not talking about "disagreement". We are talking about
willfully ignoring key issues. We are talking about *behaviors* and
what the fruits of those behaviors are.

comsen...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99
to
Jeremiah McAuliffe wrote:
>On 5 May 1999 03:26:42 -0700, Fariduddien Rice
>
>>Note sections o8.2 and o8.3. It appears from this, that within the
>>Shafi'i madhhab, punishment for apostasy cannot be applied unless
>>there is a caliph....

Oh, and this makes it right? Murdering apostates is OK, as long as it's
practiced by the state?

>
>Salaams to my good brother,
>
>Of course, the anti-Muslims already know this..... they've been told
>it is an issue of statecraft....... they just ignore it.

When a crime against humanity such as murdering those who change their beliefs
is practiced by a state, it is even more evil than when practiced by
individuals. One need only look at the actions practiced by rogue states this
century, from the Ottoman Turks' genocide of the Armenians to the current
atrocities in Kosovo and the Sudan.

Nobody is "ignoring" anything. The murdering of people who change their
beliefs is a sick practice, regardless of the circumstances under which it is
committed. The anti-human rights advocates know this; they just ignore it.

CS

comsen...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
May 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/6/99