So, is Mike Tyson a Muslim or not?
oldf...@nospam.net
a lot of media attention on his "conversion" about 5 years or so ago.
Is there such a thing a a good Muslim and a bad Muslim? Or is a bad
Muslim actually a non-Muslim, as is I would argue, the case in
evangelical Christianity. Eg Hitler may have been baptized a Christian
but no Christian "imam" (theologian/preacher) would consider him a
true believer. Or for that matter any of the other "Lutheran" willing
participants in the Holocaust (or the Crusades!).
However I have noted that in Islam it seems that a "verbal" assent is
what counts, not a "heart & action" assent as in Christianity. A
forced Christian conversion is a contradiction in terms, whereas that
doesn't seem to be the case in Islam. (I'm speaking to 20th century
times, not the middle ages by the way. No reputable Christian scholar
would ever hold that the forced "Christian" conversions/baptisms of
the past were valid. But there seems to be no current counterpart in
Islam.)
A non-Christian of course may say, "Oh yes, but look at all those BAD
Christians". But those bad Christians may not even admit to
Christianity. (Just being a baptized Westerner is not tantamount to
being a Christian... something mideast people simply do not
understand!) And the rest of the Christian world would not look on BAD
Christians as Christians at all either.
Eg. if Mike Tyson were "converted" to Christianity 5 years ago and he
went on to say and do the things he has, nobody I mean NO... ZERO...
ZILCH... CHRISTIAN authority would hold that his conversion was valid.
But, if Mike Tyson IS in fact considered a Muslim (whether bad or
good) then that seems to diminish the believability of Islam.
If I am wrong on this, please enlighten me.
Moataz H. Emam
> However I have noted that in Islam it seems that a "verbal" assent is
> what counts, not a "heart & action" assent as in Christianity. A
Not quite right. A heart and action assent is required but can ONLY be
trully judged by God, the verbal assent is enough for us humans, since
we do not know what is in the heart. To answer your question, whether
Tyson is a Muslim or not has two answers: If he says he is a Muslim,
then I will accept that, but whether or not he is a true Muslim is for
God to judge and God alone.
--
Moataz H. Emam
Abdelkarim Benoit Evans
oldf...@nospam.net wrote:
> Just wondering what Muslims in general think of Mike Tyson. There was
> a lot of media attention on his "conversion" about 5 years or so ago.
> Is there such a thing a a good Muslim and a bad Muslim? Or is a bad
> Muslim actually a non-Muslim, as is I would argue, the case in
> evangelical Christianity. Eg Hitler may have been baptized a Christian
> but no Christian "imam" (theologian/preacher) would consider him a
> true believer. Or for that matter any of the other "Lutheran" willing
> participants in the Holocaust (or the Crusades!).
It seems to me that you do not understand either Islam or Christianity
in this regard. If what you claim is the "evangelical" position, then
coservative "evangelical" Christians are not at all in agreement with
Roman Catholics, Anglicans (Episcopalians), Presbyterians (PCUSA),
Evangelical Lutherans or United Methodists.
Being a Muslim and being a Christian is similar, in terms of the
theological rules for withholding or withdrawing the label of believer.
First of all for both Muslims and Christians, as the Bible says, "Man
judges by looking on the outside; God looks at the heart." We judge and
identify one another according to our words and deeds. A man or woman
who, in sincerity, proclaims that "there is no divinty but God and
Muhammand is God's prophet" is a Muslim. He may be a "good" Muslims or
he may not. The God of Abraham has told us through the revelations to
Moses, Jesus and Muhammad that he is the only God and that the only
religion acceptable to him is self-submission (in Arabic, "islaam"). In
the Qur'an, God says that the only distinction to be made among
believers is their degree of piety--what they believe in their hearts
and how perfectly they are able to put that belief into action in their
lives.
Everyone of us will stand before the Eternal Judge after Jesus comes at
the end of time. Moses murdered an Egyptian. Was Moses any less a Jew in
God's sight? Paul says that "all have fallen and come short of the glory
of God". Does that mean that there are no true belivers at all. There is
a difference between being a heretic, being a sinner and being an
apostate. The heretic violates doctrine and dogma but continues to
profess belief (and God knows best his heart). A sinner breaks the moral
commandments of God but does not necessarily thereby renounce his faith
in God. An apostate denies belief and put himself outside the community
of believers.
In Islam as in Christianity, the unforgivable sin is the absolute denial
of God, the willful shutting out of God (what Christianity calls the sin
against the Holy Spirit and Islam calls "kufr" or disbelief).
> However I have noted that in Islam it seems that a "verbal" assent is
> what counts, not a "heart & action" assent as in Christianity. A
> forced Christian conversion is a contradiction in terms, whereas that
> doesn't seem to be the case in Islam. (I'm speaking to 20th century
> times, not the middle ages by the way. No reputable Christian scholar
> would ever hold that the forced "Christian" conversions/baptisms of
> the past were valid. But there seems to be no current counterpart in
> Islam.)
Historically, forced conversions have been very rare in Isalm. People
are free to accept or reject Islam. When the Arab peoples conquered
foreign lands, they did not (as a general rule) prevent people from
maintaining their previous religious beliefs and ceremonies. And the
People of the Book (Jews, Christians and Sabeans) who share with Muslims
a belief in the God of Abraham, are given a protected status in the
Muslim State. It is and always has been easier for a Chrisitian or a Jew
to practice his religion in the midst of Muslims than it was for a
Quaker to practice his religion in the midst of the Puritans, who, in
Massachusetts, torture, banished or killed Quakers.
It is the Christians who often converted by the sword and who gave
conquered peoples the choice of baptism or death. That is what the
Spanish did in South America and the Puritans did to the native Indians
in Massachusetts.
> A non-Christian of course may say, "Oh yes, but look at all those BAD
> Christians". But those bad Christians may not even admit to
> Christianity. (Just being a baptized Westerner is not tantamount to
> being a Christian... something mideast people simply do not
> understand!) And the rest of the Christian world would not look on BAD
> Christians as Christians at all either.
The Christian Church in its vast majority, in every age, and in all
places has never labelled a "sinner" as a non-Christian simply on the
basis of the degree of wickedness of his acts, so long as he appeared to
believe in the fundamental elements of the Christian faith (as
summarized in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds). Jesus always taught how
important it was to go to the lost sheep and bring him back to the fold.
His sheep, even those who go astray are still his sheep and, like the
prodigal son will be welcomed home. While the prodigal son was abroad,
wasting his life and money, did he cease to be his father's son?
Muslims, do not say "Oh, you have done an evil deed, you are no longer a
Muslim."
Muslims communitites, like most Christian communities, have discipline.
They can "punish" evil-doers. But even Christian ex-communication,
except in its most extreme form, does not absolutely exclude the evil
doer from the community of believers--it just, as it were, sends him to
his room without supper for the time it takes him to either return to
the main room or actually become an avowed apostate.
The Muslim "shahada" or confession of faith (I declare that there is no
divinity but God and Muhammad is God's prophet) is the instrument by
which a person proclaims his status as a Muslim believer. No one can
undo that declaration of faith except the person himself by an avowed
act of apostasy. In that respect, it is like the Christian sacrement of
Baptism, as practised by most Christians, which is the door by which a
person enters the Christian faith, by which he is made a member of
Christ, a child of God and an inheritor of the kingdom of heaven. No one
can take that away. Unlike the Sacrement of the Lord's Supper, Baptism
cannot be repeated; it is a once in a lifetime blessing by the Chruch
that recognizes the believer's profession of faith. Unless he declares
himself to be an apostate (by word or deed) he remains a believer until
he dies and no one can say that he is no longer a Christian simply
because he has committed evil deeds.
> Eg. if Mike Tyson were "converted" to Christianity 5 years ago and he
> went on to say and do the things he has, nobody I mean NO... ZERO...
> ZILCH... CHRISTIAN authority would hold that his conversion was valid.
> But, if Mike Tyson IS in fact considered a Muslim (whether bad or
> good) then that seems to diminish the believability of Islam.
> If I am wrong on this, please enlighten me.
>
At the risk of seeming impertinent, I believe you are mistaken about
Christian doctrine in this regard, at least Christian doctrine as
understood by the primitive Church, the ancient Fathers of the undivided
Church and by the majority of today's Christian communities.
A person's conversion is valid when the person sincerely says the words
and performs the acts required by the community (whether the Christian
church or Islma) to become a member of that community. Acts committed
later do not affect the validity of the earlier profession of faith. If
the later acts are acts of avowed apostasy, the historically valid
conversion is annulled by the apostasy and the person is no longer a
Christian. However so long as he does not deny the essential teachings
of the faith, he is always a Christian, even if he becomes a drunkard, a
wife beater, a rapist, a theft or a murderer. It is the same in Islam.
You will note that I have avoided making any specific mention of Mike
Tyson in my discussion. I do not know him and even if I did, I would not
be in a position to say that he not a Muslim unless he publicly denied
his formerly professed belief in God, his Books, his Angels, His
Prophets, His Last Judgment and his sovereignty over all that happens.
God knows what is in Mike Tyson's heart; I do not. God will judge him; I
cannot.
Do you know Mike Tyson? Probably not. All you know are the deeds that he
is reputed to have done. Some of those deeds are evil in nature and he
has been judged by the secular courts of law and disciplined for some of
them. One day, like you and me, he will stand before God and will be
judged according to his deeds and according to his heartfelt intentions
by God's perfect justice and perfect mercy. In the interval, so long as
he declares his faith in the God of Abraham, he is a Muslim. Because of
his words and deeds, some may not consider him to be a "good" Muslim,
but he is surely a Muslim, until and unless he himself renounces his
belief in the God of Abraham.
In his work entitled _Hilyat al-Awliyah_, Abu Nu'aym relates a saying of
Jesus that was known to the early Muslims. It is a saying that
illustrates the way in which a believer can be a good believer or a bad
believer, but does not cease to be a believer so long as the spark of
faith is in his heart.
"While Jesus was sitting with his disciples, a bird of magnificent
beauty, with wings that shone like mother of pearl, began to fly around
them. Jesus said, 'Leave it alone and do not scare it off. It is sent to
you as an example.' Then the bird removed its plumage revealing an
ungainly body and an ugly reddish skin. The bird hopped into a puddle of
mud from which it came out black and disgusting. Then it hopped into a
stream of water and cleaned itself off. Finally, it put its feathers
back on and was once again as beautiful and graceful as before. 'That
bird,' Jesus said to his disciples, 'was sent to you as a sign. It is
the exemple of a believer who, soiling himself in sin, loses his beauty
and grace, but when he repents, finds them restored.'" (_Hilyat
al-Awliyah_, Vi, 60)
--
Peace to all who seek God's face.
Abdelkarim Benoit Evans
Altway
> > Just wondering what Muslims in general think of Mike Tyson.
Is there such a thing a a good Muslim and a bad Muslim? Or is a bad
Muslim actually a non-Muslim, as is I would argue, the case in
evangelical Christianity.
Comment:-
Man can only judge from outside. God judges the motives and thoughts.
I think there are four degrees of Muslim
(1) A person who says he accepts that "there is no god but Allah
and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah"
is a Muslim from a legal point of view. We have to accept
his word.
(2) A person believes the statement, but does not make much
efforts to live by its implications, or he does not really understand
what is involved. This may be because he has not sought knowledge
or has been misled by others or his culture. There are several
sub-classes here.
(3) A person may believe the formula and try to act accordingly,
but he may fail to various degrees. But God may forgive him.
We cannot really judge what efforts a person has made and
what the temptations were or the external difficulties. Perhaps
illness, or lack of means or opportunities forced him?
Or it could be that his upbringing or early environment was bad
and he had to make tremendous efforts to overcome the
results of this.
It is, perhaps, true to say, that it is not the results that count
but the inner efforts.
(4) A person may be righteous in that his life and being are in
surrender to Allah. But he may or may not make the statement.
Perhaps he does not know the formula or its meaning.
---
Hamid S. Aziz
.
Zuiko Azumazi
<oldf...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:q10cdvs94eucgm7du...@4ax.com...
<snip>
> Is there such a thing a a good Muslim and a bad Muslim? Or is a bad
> Muslim actually a non-Muslim,
Comment:-
>From an Islamic point of view, what is the difference between say a Mike
Tyson or a Saddam Hussein and a member of the Ahmadiyya sect? In the 'legal'
context, what makes one a Muslim or in the latter case a non-Muslim? Is it
purely a question of interpretative dogma?
--
Peace
To illustrate a principle, you must exaggerate much and you must omit much.
[Walter Bagehot]
Zuiko Azumazi
azu...@hotmail.com
oldf...@nospam.net
<azu...@hotmail.com> wrotF:
>
><oldf...@nospam.net> wrote in message
>news:q10cdvs94eucgm7du...@4ax.com...
><snip>
>> Is there such a thing a a good Muslim and a bad Muslim? Or is a bad
>> Muslim actually a non-Muslim,
><snip>
>Comment:-
>>From an Islamic point of view, what is the difference between say a Mike
>Tyson or a Saddam Hussein and a member of the Ahmadiyya sect? In the 'legal'
>context, what makes one a Muslim or in the latter case a non-Muslim? Is it
>purely a question of interpretative dogma?
Well, thanks for the careful and thoughtful responses. But they seem
to have confirmed what I have suspected, that a bad Muslim is still a
Muslim. To say that God knows the heart and only He is judge seems to
beg the question. It may be true of Catholicism and liberal
Christianity (to a degree but I think this is changing) but I still
stand firm that evangelical Christianity with which I am most familiar
(although I spent years in both the others) simply expects fruit from
fruit trees. Witness Jesus' cursing of the fig tree. Jesus, according
to the Christian scriptures has the highest standards of any known
religion and those who are unwilling to accept these responsibilities
are not worthy of Him as He says in one place.
I raised the issue of Mike Tyson because Muslims are forever bringing
up the Crusaders and bad Christians and, as I mentioned, assuming
Western European baptized people are Christians when in fact most of
them would outright deny any real Christian identity. This week Mike
Tyson is quoted as saying that he did not commit the crime of which he
was convicted but that if he could do it all over again, he would!
Yikes, Mike!
If a member of my church ever said something like that, I would
immediately call for a council to have him removed from the church's
roster of members (unless he repented). If the Enron execs who ripped
off all their employees and stockholders were members of my church I
would do the same.
Every true Christian believer is an apprentice to Jesus. Those who by
their words or actions, show no interest therefore must in fact be
assumed to not be apprentices. The issue is not trying hard enough.
The issue is transformation of the human heart. There was no personal
conversion to begin with. It was bogus.
Let's stop reverting to the atrocities committed in the name of Jesus
or Muhammed in the past. The Puritans did in fact persecute, even
other Christians. Yes we know that. We also know they were wrong and
as I said in my original post, no reputable Christian
scholar-authority would agree that they were being "Christian." Again,
being baptized or going to church on Sunday is not the same as being a
Christian which many, probably most, Muslims simply do not grasp.
A few of you responded that the Qu'ran prohibits forced conversions.
This does not work out in practice though. I lived for 2 years in
Pakistan. Shariah law there condemns to death any "Muslim" who
"converts" to Christianity. This in effect "forces" the Pakistani
people to "stay" Muslim (or else!). I cannot imagine Jesus saying
anything remotely similar. "Any one of you who after confessing me and
converts to Islam shall be stoned to death." He always was interested
in the heart, the will. The Christian Pakistanis suffered horribly,
far FAR more than Muslims in the US suffer from the (so called)
"Christian majority." So much for my first-hand experience of Muslim
tolerance.
Consider: A Muslim converts to Christianity. To condemn him to death
it seems is the height of hypocrisy. I mean what God would want a
person's loyalty by fear or by force?
I am obviously biased since I am already an apprentice of Jesus. I
remain a sinner for life, but change is observable in me because God
is changing my will. (If you knew me before my convesion it would be
obvious.) Again, I confess to bias. But if I were a seeker, a
non-religious person, one who was carefully weighing the claims of
each faith, I think Islam would easily lose if for the simple reason
that it makes the same claim every one of the other thousands of
religions that have appeared: Be good! Christianity is as it were a
one-of-a-kind and says you cannot be good enough. Ever. You must be
re-made good in the heart. Then goodness will occur by nature. God
wants the human heart. Given freely to Him, He will change it by
grace, not merit.
Please do not assume that I do not respect you or your responses. We
could all probably be very good friends. Thanks again. Maybe there is
an imam or scholar who would agree that a bad Muslim is not a Muslim
at all. If so, I would like to continue dialogue.
Abdelkarim Benoit Evans
oldf...@nospam.net wrote:
[...]
> I am obviously biased since I am already an apprentice of Jesus. I
> remain a sinner for life, but change is observable in me because God
> obvious.) [...]
>
> Please do not assume that I do not respect you or your responses. We
> could all probably be very good friends. Thanks again. Maybe there is
> an imam or scholar who would agree that a bad Muslim is not a Muslim
> at all. If so, I would like to continue dialogue.
Frankly, I am surprised you do not see the inconsistency of your
position. You criticize Islam because a "bad" Muslim is still considered
to be a Muslim. However, you confess to being a "sinner for life", which
means that you are a bad or at least imperfect Christian who never
expects to obtain perfection of character. Nevertheless, you do not
exclude yourself from the Christian community.
There may be a difference in degree between your "sinfulness" and that
of those you would expel from the community of believers, but there is
NO difference in nature. In both cases, we are talking about people who
have not committed apostasy but who have failed to keep all the moral
commandments of their religion.
In your messages you have named a particular Muslim as a "bad" Muslim
who should no longer be considered to be a Muslim.
As I said in my previous message, I will not get into a discussion of
that particular person. I do not know him (nor do you) and God alone can
judge his heart--neither I nor you can do so.
For Muslims, one of the greatest sins is "backbiting", which I suppose
is similar to calumny in the Christian tradition.
In the Qur'an, the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad says:
"O you who believe do not let any men among you to deride others. It may
be that the latter are better then the former. Do not let any women
among you deride others. It may be that the latter are better than the
former. Do not defame or be sarcastic in regard to others. Do not call
others by offensive nicknames. ...Do not speak ill of others behind
their backs. Would any of you eat the flesh of his dead brother?"
(Qur'an 49:11-12)
It is reported that the Prophet Muhammad said: "Once a man asserted, "By
Allah the Most High! Such and such a person will not be forgiven by God.
Of this Allah, the Lord of Honour and Glory, said, 'Who is this man who
swears in my Name that I will not forgive so and so? I have forgiven him
and have cancelled your good deeds." (Related in Muslim's compilation of
the Traditions.)
It is reported that the Prophet Muhammad said: "A Muslim is the brother
of another Muslim. He is not cruel towards him nor should he humiliate
him nor look down on him. It is an evil action that a human being should
look down on a Brother Muslim. Everything of a Muslim is forbidden to
another Muslim: his blood, his honour and his property. God the Most
High does not look on your others or your faces or your outward acts. He
looks to your hearts." (Related in Muslim's compilation of the
Traditions.)
It is reported that the Messiah, Jesus son of the Virgin Mary, God's
word and a spirit from God said: "And when the scribes and Pharisees saw
him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is
it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus
heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the
physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but
sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:16-18)
If we scorn and ridicule another's faith, we commit the sin of pride. It
is arrogance to think that our sins are less than those of another. The
had of fellowship that we hold out to the weakest in faith of among our
brothers and sisters may well be the hand that prevents them from
falling away from faith and into the abyss of unbelief.
Zuiko Azumazi
<oldf...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:na5hdvodhrtmid8au...@4ax.com...
<snip>
> If a member of my church ever said something like that, I would
> immediately call for a council to have him removed from the church's
> roster of members (unless he repented).
Questions:-
Would barring from your church's congregational roster automatically stop
someone from being a Christian, I don't thing so! In medieval times the
Catholic Church used to excommunicate people for doctrinal dissent etc., but
even that ultimate sanction didn't work in a lot of cases, take Martin
Luther as an example, did he stop being a Christian?
You will to change the logic of your argument if you want to be convincing.
--
Peace
--
You cannot teach a person who is not anxious to learn and you cannot
explain to one who is not trying to make things clear to themselves.
Zuiko Azumazi
azu...@hotmail.com
CooolBreeeze
> immediately call for a council to have him removed from the church's
> roster of members (unless he repented). If the Enron execs who ripped
> off all their employees and stockholders were members of my church I
> would do the same.
COMMENT:
Quran says that if God gave man the control of the heavens and earth
that we would be niggardly, stingy and selfish with mercy. That with
man's operation of the universe it would cease to operate. That you
can even think that you have a defined clue as to the Judgment of God
is laughable or, better, pitiable.
I am happy, relieved even, to know that you are not my judge and you
should be informed that your judgment over any man is at best
inconsequential. How come you don't know that? The Muslim position
only acknowledges that fact.
Mercy from Allah is ever abundant, and forgiveness for the repentant
is overflowing like a fountain, I am happy to tell you.