Where in the Qur'an? Read it! (was Re: Was 'Ali Right or

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Mohammad Ghoniem

Apr 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/27/98

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Assalaamu 3alaykom wa raHmatollaahi wa barakaatoh.

[cut the part about the cow of Bani Israel]

far...@ibm.net said:
> You have indeed done the same by asking for all the details. Salat is
> a simple act of worship in which a subservient contacts His Lord. You
> have turned it into a routine mechanized and exact science, so much
> that your own scientific theory blows up in your face, just as the
> disobedience of the Jews had its consequences on them.

I guess if brother Omar was to be compared to anyone in the story of
the cow it is by no means Moses. Actually, in the story of Moses with
the Jews, he might be compared to a knowledgeable student of Moses that
took the opportunity of the absence of his Master to misguide a whole
nation into worshiping the golden calf. Although As-Saamiri (the
Samaritan) had learnt a lot of things from his Prophet (Moses), he
managed to go astray and lead his people far from the path drawn by
Moses before his departure.

Similarly, many verses in the Quran show that we have to obey the Prophet
and follow him (i.e. in every thing he did), follow his example and his
perfect illustration of God's commandments. Moreover, many reports rated
among the most authentic say that the Prophet told his companions:
"Khudhoo 3anni manaasikakom" (Follow my example in terms of cult) and
in particular he said: "Salloo kamaa ra'aytumooni uSalli" (Pray in the
way you saw me pray.) If this is not clear enough for people like
Brother Omar then nobody except Allaah can help them since they locked
their hearts and eyes and ears and are stuck in their own opinion.
Once more, how can one imagine that an important daily cult like the
prayers performed by all the community after the Prophet (S), performed
in public and privately, performed every day, day after day, week after
week, year after year during the life of the Prophet and carried out
as the core cult (the Prophet described it as "Mukh ul3ibaadah" "the
brain of the cult"), how can one imagine that it may have suffered
any laziness or error in the transmission? This is really odd and

And to those who wish to discard the sunnah saying that there is no means
of authenticating the reports, one central question has to be answered:
How do you make it to authenticate the Great Report, the Word of God? I
mean, how can you authenticate the transmission of the Holy Quran itself
as it is the first report to be transmitted to us? Do you have a separate
authentication method other than tawaatur (i.e. continuity of the chains
of transmission through the generations and the multiplicity of the
narrators in each generation)? Of course you will state the verse where
Allah (SWT) says he is the protector of the Book. That can suit a
believer like us but if you say so to a neutral party he will see that
the same authentication process (tawaatur) is applicable to the Quran
and the sunnah since both are reports and in both cases the people who
transmitted them to us can be rated according to their accuracy in
reporting and their morals known to their fellow believers of their
time. And if you apply the same method to both the sunnah and the Quran
you will find that alHamdulillaah the Quran is objectively and
scientifically authentic but you will also learn to be careful before
venturing that the whole sunnah is to be rejected. Actually, the
authentication of the Holy Quran also relies on many reports (transmitted
like the hadith) without which the authentication of the Quran can not be
possible. By pulling down the Science of Hadith, you are making the
transmission of the Holy Quran itself questionnable. I would rather think
more than once before rejecting the sunnah.

far...@ibm.net said:
> "Our prayer"!!! Can you find me 5 mandatory prayers by name in the
> Qur'an? No, only three are stated by name. Can you find me 5 times in
> the Qur'an? No, the times described through out the Qur'an describe
> the times of these three. I realize that people have grossly
> misinterpreted them into five just to preserve their precious sunnah.

Yes, our prayer! Brother Omar described his opinion on his webpage which
is far from being clear. He makes a confusion between three periods of
the day and three prayer times. He says that three prayers are stated
by name, which may be wrong, in fact only Salaat al'Asr and Salaat
al'Ishaa' are stated in the Quran. The third one he may be thinking of
is Fajr and it is stated as "Qur'aan alfajr". I know that this expression
means the prayer of alfajr but if Brother Omar is speaking about salat
being stated by name there are only two. It is up to him to provide
Quranic sources (since he is rejecting the hadith) proving that what is
meant by "Qur'aan alfajr" is in reality the prayer itself. It is
very strange to find people arguing about matters agreed upon between
all muslims (sunni and shia). We know very well that sunni and shia
disagreed on every matter where disagreement was possible. Conciliation
was not their prime concern. However, they agreed on the prayers. And, of
course, 14 centuries after the beginning of Islam, Omar proves that
nobody had read the Quran in depth before him and his fellows! Whaaaaaaaa!

far...@ibm.net said:
> The above indicates that the Arabs knew when and how to pray, even
> before the Qur'an was revealed.

The above? I must have missed something. I couldn't find any evidence
in your article. Do you have anything more than conjectures, Omar?

far...@ibm.net said:
> But just as you are questioning the detailed step-by-step exact
> procedure (i.e. the Jews and the cow) so did the Arabs after the death
> of prophet Muhammad.

Do you have any evidence or only your word against another word?

far...@ibm.net said:
> As such, salat developed into a tedious and frequent process that made
> it difficult for many people to perform, just as finding the right cow
> to sacrifice was made difficult.

And, you are suggeting to simplify the difficult process, aren't you?
Just as As-Saamiri gave the Jews a more convenient god, a visible god.

far...@ibm.net said:
> All sorts of steps and words, including greeting dead human prophets
> were added to the pure salat that God asked for.

That is only what you wish. Where is your evidence? Who are the dead
added besides God? Huh? What is the expression that is supposed to add
anyone besides God? Can somebody explain it to us?

far...@ibm.net said:
> If God wanted you to perform salat robotically would He not have
> listed it step by step?

Salat as performed by Muslims has nothing robotical when performed
heartedly with khushuu'. If it had to be done your way, it would be
called du'aa'. Then why bother with two words Salat and du'aa' if they
refer to the same act? A step by step salat has nothing more robotical
than the step by step Wuduu'. Is there a new suggestion for Wuduu'?
Conforming to God's commandments even in step by step acts shows
obedience and are by no means robotical.

far...@ibm.net said:
>> P.S: the debate has shifted to another title: "Square wheels of
>> hadithists". Check it if you are interested in the rest of the thread.

I indicated this for the brothers and sisters who wished to follow the
discussion, no more no less. And the reason was obvious and is stated
again by brother Omar in his last post.

I guess that the next step is to show the mistakes in the webpage of
Brother Omar. I won't do it right now as other issues are more urgent.
But, inshallah I will try to find time and good will to bear that burden.

The last thing to be said is: "Rabbanaa laa tuzigh quloobanaa ba'da idh
hadaytanaa wa hab lanaa min ladonka raHmatan innaka anta-l Wahhaab".(3:8)

wassalaamu 3alaykom wa raHmatollaahi wa barakaatoh.

Your brother, Mohammad.
Mohammad GHONIEM Adresse: 6, Allee J.B FOURIER
Ecole des Mines de Nantes Appt Q 404
Promotion 1996-2000 44300 Nantes
Tel: 02 40 18 07 58 FRANCE
>From abroad: 033 2 40 18 07 58

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