An answer to Jochen 2

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Asim Mehmood Awan

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Nov 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/7/97
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Assalamualaikum to those who follow the Right Guidance


Jochen asked about the angels, and he hasn't even looked in the Quran.
Well, He needs to look in Surah Anbiya, where Allah refers to them as
never slacking in worship. And if any desired to be an ilah, they
would be thrown in hell. Wow. Is it another shocker? Jochen thinks
there hasn't been questioned answered in the Quran, but yet. We find
another answer to his "unanswerable" questions. And yes the
revelation of the verse was clear to the believers, in reference to
Surah 21, but to the unbelievers, they twist and turn whatever they
want.
And the problem with Jochen is he admits there were Jews and
Christians in Medina, and Mecca, maybe a handful, so the unbelievers
knew Jews worshipped Uzair as the son of God. Jochen will admit
to facts when there in support of himself, but ignore them altogether
when it is in support of Islam. As in reference to the hadith, when
Jochen says that I have to quote him Jewish sources admitting that.
So Jochen can quote a hadith in defense of his "cause", but I cannot
in reference to the Jews.
The fact is the unbelievers knew some Jews worship Uzair, so until
Jochen can prove otherwise, than he has no case.


Assalamualaikum to those who follow the right guidance

Jochen Katz

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Nov 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/8/97
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In article <63v6v2$l...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
ih...@wam.umd.edu (Asim Mehmood Awan) writes:

} Jochen asked about the angels, and he hasn't even looked in the Quran.

Sure I have. Maybe I have not seen everything or can't recall all that
I read. But you are wrong. I have looked into the Qur'an many times.

} Well, He needs to look in Surah Anbiya, where Allah refers to them as
} never slacking in worship. And if any desired to be an ilah, they
} would be thrown in hell. Wow. Is it another shocker?

I am not so easily shocked. :-)

But I would appreciate if you would give clearer references than just
a sura name. Which of the 112 verses are you thinking of? I did a search
on angel in the text and the only verse with the word that came up does
not say anything like it. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/021.qmt.html
The word "slack" is not found at all, and the word "hell" comes up
but no verse says that if any angel desired to be a god then he would
be thrown into hell. I am wondering where you made up that verse?

} Jochen thinks
} there hasn't been questioned answered in the Quran, but yet. We find
} another answer to his "unanswerable" questions.

Not so quick. First give an exact reference, then we can discuss it.
I don't like debating what I cannot verify. Bring your proof if you
are truthful.

} And yes the
} revelation of the verse was clear to the believers, in reference to
} Surah 21, but to the unbelievers, they twist and turn whatever they
} want.

Show that you have not twisted it, first. Quote exactly and give
the verse number.

} And the problem with Jochen is he admits there were Jews and
} Christians in Medina, and Mecca, maybe a handful, so the unbelievers
} knew Jews worshipped Uzair as the son of God. Jochen will admit
} to facts when there in support of himself, but ignore them altogether
} when it is in support of Islam. As in reference to the hadith, when
} Jochen says that I have to quote him Jewish sources admitting that.
} So Jochen can quote a hadith in defense of his "cause", but I cannot
} in reference to the Jews.

First, a general comment: I find it rather annoying that you constantly
change the subject title. This makes it impossible to read a thread in
context. None can go back in their newsreaders and see what you react
to and if your answer has anything to do with what you are responding
to. Could you please keep the title? I even don't mind if the title is
"Jochen's ignorance", which is only incriminating you, not me. But the
more you are doing it, the more I have the impression you deliberately
try to make it hard to follow the development of the discussion. Do you
think your arguments are so bad that you try to hide the earlier ones?

So, maybe you understand it better when I repeat what I said before?

My posting that you were responding to is at DejaNews under

http://xp6.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3c637vk2$kga$1...@shell3.ba.best.com%3e&server=db97p5&CONTEXT=879008156.2034827423

Subject: Re: An answer to Jochen
From: Jochen Katz <jk...@math.gatech.edu>
Date: 1997/10/29
Message-ID: <637vk2$kga$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam

containing stating in excerpt:

*************************************************************************
} Sirat Rasullullah (S). In quoting the hadith for another intent the
} the responder ANSWERED HIS OWN OBJECTION TO QURAN AND ITS STATEMENTS
} AGAINST THE JEWS. AND ALL PRAISES ARE DUE TO ALLAH FOR ORIGINALLY I DIDN'T
} NOTICE IT.
}
} In the hadith, it says that the unbeliever said "...AND THE JEWS WORSHIP
} UZAIR..."

No, the only thing the above shows that this was a common misunderstanding
in Mecca. That is not surprising. Muhammad was a Meccan and only said what
they said as well [in this issue at least]. That doesn't mean it is true.

Let me illustrate this with a clear example. Millions of Muslims believe
that Christians believe that Allah "sired" Jesus with Mary. This is even
in Ahmed Deedat's books, printed by the millions and gullibly read and
repeated by Muslims everywhere.

Does the fact that millions of Muslims believe this nonsense therefore
make it true? Some misunderstandings are very widely spread. So, the
only thing the above shows is that the worship of `Uzair was a common
opinion of the Meccans about the Jews. It doesn't prove it is actually
true. NOTE: It is NOT the Jews who say this, it is the idolators who
say this about the Jews.

Or to take one example which Muslims hate in particular.
Dr. Morey's claim that Muslims worship the moon god. Many Christians
have read his book, and too many Christians have not read much else
and believe and repeat this. Does the fact that some Christians say
that Allah is the moon god and Muslims worship the moon god therefore
make it true?

I hope you can accept that your argument was rather fallacious.
Show me a Jewish source where the worship of Ezra is mentioned.
THEN you have a point.
*************************************************************************

Let me add the following question to Mr. Awan: Do you believe everything
that is printed in a newspaper? Everything that is stated on TV? Could
it be that some people have wrong beliefs about what others actually
think and do? Do Muslims worship the pagan moongod just because Dr. Morey
says so? Do the Jews worship `Uzair just because the Meccans said so?

} The fact is the unbelievers knew some Jews worship Uzair, so until
} Jochen can prove otherwise, than he has no case.

Mr. Awan has not yet understood the difference between a fact and
an opinion. Yes, there is a fact. The fact is that the Meccans were
of the opinion that the Jews worshiped `Uzair. Whether their opinion
is correct, is another thing altogether.

Sincerely,

Jochen Katz

Asim Mehmood Awan

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97
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Assalamualaikum to those who follow the Right Guidance

Is Jochen getting a little annoyed? Jochen seems to think I'm hear at his
convenience. I never told him to read my posts. I just read a response,
get some ideas, and write comments at the spur of a moment. I call it
"Inspiration." HEHEHEHEHE!

SEIZE THE MOMENT


So, Jochen is wrong in his assumption again. But that is OPINION.

Obviously, according to
Jochen, there were Jews and Christians present in Medina. From what I
remember, (it's a "spur of the moment" thing which Jochen seems to have a
problem with), Jochen in a previous post
used that to justify some comments he made.

The Jews of Arabia were not like the confused Jews of today. They knew
very well there traditions. Abdullah ibn Salam (R), there best Rabbi, who
converted to Islam, never made any objections to the facts of the Quran.
And either did any of the other "Much more well versed in their people
than Jochen" Rabbis, made statments contrary to the fact.

If the unbelievers had
objections, they would have raised them, just like they did many times
before. Where in their statments, were the unbelievers stating
opinion. Or are you stating OPINION?

The unbelievers can be familiar with the Jews and Christians
when
it serves
Jochen's convenience, but when it doesn't serve Jochen's convenience, the
unbelievers can't?

Assalamualaikum to those who folow the Right Guidance

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