The West's "Dantes - Divine Comedy" borrowed from Islam
Zuiko Azumazi
west's debt to Islam. I wonder if discerning subscribers or SRI's current
spate of "Islamic critics" know that the Catholic Church's much loved
Christian poem, "Dante Alighieri's - Divine Comedy" was, in fact, borrowed
from Islam:-
Extract:-
ISLAM AND THE DIVINE COMEDY
Islam and the Divine Comedy, is an abridged translation of La Escatologia
Musulmana en la Divina Comedia, originally published in Spanish in Madrid in
1919. The author, Prof. Miguel Asin Y. Palacios, though a Catholic priest,
was attracted by the Muslim philosophers and sufis of Spain, particularly
Ibn Massara, Ibn Hazm, Ibn Rushd and the great sufi Ibn al-Arabi. He wrote
several books on Hispano-Islamic philosophy and sufism, but the
international renown he earned was on account of this book. After years of
extensive research, he- discovered parallels between the Islamic lore about
the afterlife based on Hadith and The Divine Comedy by the Italian poet
Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), a work for which he is justly famed. The
similarities, far from being superficial, pervade the entire poem. Prof.
Asin concluded that Dante had derived most of the features of and episodes
about the hereafter from (i) the Hadith literature relating to the Prophet
Muhammad and his ascension (mi`raj) and (ii) to the spiritual visions of Ibn
al-Arabi. In his opinion, The Divine Comedy was not an entirely original
work, as Dante had had before him a ready made pattern based on Islamic
writings on the after-life.
With the publication of this work, Prof. Asin found'' himself in the - eye
of a storm, as nationalist Italians, the Roman Catholic clergy, and other
European Christians could not reconcile themselves to the thought of their
most cherished religious poem being based on non-Christian sources. Prof.
Asin, however, faced up to his critics by enumerating the possible sources
from which Dante could have obtained the salient features of Islamic
eschatology.
The consensus of opinion of all eminent scholars of Europe and America is
now in favour of Prof. Asin's thesis.
End extract.
Will the "Islamic critics" acknowledge this "consensus" opinion? Will they
respond sensibly or will we get more huff, puff and bluster denying the
historical truth of Islam that was intellectually borrowed by the west?
As one astute western commentator put it: " ... the Roman Catholic clergy
and other European Christians could not reconcile themselves to the thought
of their most cherished religious poem being based on non-Christian sources,
especially from the rival monotheistic faith, Islam. Professor Asin,
however, faced up to his critics by enumerating the possible sources from
which Dante could have obtained the salient features of Islamic
eschatology."
--
Peace
--
Negative findings are sometimes as important as positive ones, since they
cut down the total universe of ignorance. [F. N. Kerlinger]
Zuiko Azumazi
azu...@hotmail.com
klei...@astound.net
Zuiko Azumazi wrote:
> Following on from the oft repeated "myth" theme, here's further proof of the
> west's debt to Islam. I wonder if discerning subscribers or SRI's current
> spate of "Islamic critics" know that the Catholic Church's much loved
> Christian poem, "Dante Alighieri's - Divine Comedy" was, in fact, borrowed
> from Islam:-
I fear that that, as it stands, is not very sound literary criticism. I
think what you really intend is something like "the imagery Dante used
in his Divine Comedy is, in large part, borrowed from Islamic sources."
There is more to Dante's achievement than the imagery. One thing he was
also doing was inventing literary Italian - creating an Italian
language which existed for its own sake and was not just a bastard
Latin. This achievement in itself is something Islam has yet duplicate
(at least within its Arab-speaking core)..
The neo-Arabic languages, long differentiated from their possible
ancestor Classic Arabic, need an army of Dante's to pen masterpieces
that will set them up in the literary business. As it stands today the
Arab-speaking world is, linguisticlly-speaking, approximately where
Italy was before Dante wrote.
Another thing Dante was doing was commenting on contemporary Italian
politics. I think we can ignore that.
Yet another thing he was doing was beating the drums for the then brand
new theological innovation - purgatory. Muslims with taste for
denouncing Christian folly seem to have largely overlooked Purgatory as
a target. With luck they might even arouse a Catholic or two to defend
it.
But the original point is a great idea. I have always wondered where
Dante got his ideas. They are invisible in all the older European
literature I have ever been exposed to. That he tapped Islam is very
possible. The only problem is: can the images he used be demonstrated
to exist in Islamic thought?
The Qur'an has its own eschatology which, in my view, has only a
generic connection to Dante's Hell. Of course, there is nothing in
Islam parallel to Purgatory and Dante's Paradise seems, at least
superficially, to have nothing at all to do with the Islamic Paradise
and its armies of virgin raisins (if you know of alternative visions of
the Islamic Paradise, please point me at them). The mainline Sunna
seems to me to add details to the Qur'an's picture, but not change it
substantially. Obviously I have overlooked something. I wonder what.
Zuiko Azumazi
news:1151976310....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
<snip> ...
> I fear that that, as it stands, is not very sound literary criticism. I
> think what you really intend is something like "the imagery Dante used
> in his Divine Comedy is, in large part, borrowed from Islamic sources."
...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Well we can all understand that fear when it's based on "crooked thinking".
Nowhere in Prof. Miguel Asin Y. Palacios erudite historical work "Islam and
the Divine Comedy" does it purport to be a "literary criticism" of the work
itself. Where do you get that idea?
Isn't this historical work about, as was cited in my post: "Prof. Asin
concluded that Dante had derived most of the features of and episodes about
the hereafter from (i) the Hadith literature relating to the Prophet
Muhammad and his ascension (mi`raj) and (ii) to the spiritual visions of Ibn
al-Arabi."? Do you refute his conclusions? On what valid historical grounds?
Do you deny: "The consensus of opinion of all eminent scholars of Europe and
America is now in favour of Prof. Asin's thesis."? What's the difference
between ideas that are "derived" or "borrowed" from Islam, the intellectual
debt given to the west that was undoubtedly created as a consequence in
reality?
But as a "crooked thinking" aside, doesn't your reply fall under "Extension
of an opponents proposition by contradiction or misrepresentation [4]",? See
this "Thirty-Eight Dishonest Tricks Which Are Commonly Used In Argument"
link for details:-
--
Peace
--
The most perfidious manner of injuring a cause is to vindicate it
intentionally with fallacious arguments. [Friedrich Nietzsche]
Zuiko Azumazi
azu...@hotmail.com
Victor
"The Divine Comedy", but the conclusions Azumazi draws from this are
not sensible.
It's entirely normal for writers to draw on other writers. For example,
the plots of Shakespeare's plays are often based on history chronicles,
plays, and other works. This hardly makes Shakespeare's plays any less
great. Like Shakespeare, Dante is remembered and read still today
precisely because he outdid his predecessors. No work comparable to
"The Divine Comedy" has been written in the Muslim world.
Even more importantly, both Dante and his putative Muslim sources were
adherents of the same Abrahamic religious tradition. The ideas of
medieval Muslim writers about afterlife were rather unoriginal. From a
nonpartisan perspective it's clear that Muslim sources, including the
Quran, draw heavily on Jewish and Christian ideas. Christians and Jews
have in turn sometimes been influenced by Muslims, too, but Muslims
have a tendency to flatly deny the obvious and overwhelming
Judeo-Christian influence on Islam, and greatly overstate the influence
in the opposite direction, just like Azumazi is doing here. Another
less-than-holy but crucial influence on Islamic (as well as Christian
and Jewish) theology and thinking are the pagan philosophers of Greece.
Azumazi, your notion that the study of the sources of a literary work
is not literary criticism is quaint to say the least. Who is, by the
way, the anonymous writer you quote on this issue? Aside from an
assertion in that anonymous blurb, can you demonstrate that "all
eminent scholars of Europe and America" favor Asin's ideas?
You, Azumazi, constantly refer to the ideas of this Thouless fellow,
how about trying to be a "straight thinker" yourself? You expect others
to abide by rules that neither you nor your God (in the Quran) follow.
That's called hypocrisy.
For example, in your rants about certain non-Muslim posters in this
newsgroup you frequently attribute motives and prejudices to them (#38
in Thouless's list of dishonest tricks). In this thread you say that
"'Divine Comedy' was, in fact, borrowed from Islam". That is, you imply
that Dante stole the whole work from "Islam", assumably including its
language (Italian), theological ideas, structure, characters, and even
the depictions of Muhammad suffering in hell. Assuming that Dante
indeed was influenced by Muslim sources to some extent, you have
employed trick #2 ("'all' is implied but 'some' is true") on Thouless's
list. I could point out numerous other "dishonest tricks" that you keep
using in your posts, but I'll leave it at here.
servant
klei...@astound.net wrote:
> there is nothing in Islam parallel to Purgatory
That would be the people of the hieghts, where
Surah 7 is named after, i.e, The Hieghts or
Al Ara'af." The source of Dante;s Divine
Comedy was "The Message" by the scholar
Al Ma'ari.
klei...@astound.net
Zuiko Azumazi wrote:
> <klei...@astound.net> wrote in message
> news:1151976310....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> <snip> ...
> > I fear that that, as it stands, is not very sound literary criticism. I
> > think what you really intend is something like "the imagery Dante used
> > in his Divine Comedy is, in large part, borrowed from Islamic sources."
> Nowhere in Prof. Miguel Asin Y. Palacios erudite historical work "Islam and
> the Divine Comedy" does it purport to be a "literary criticism" of the work
> itself. Where do you get that idea?
What else can it possibly be except literary criticism? I have not read
the book, but everything you have said about it demonstrates that it is
literary criticism. I have every reason to believe that it is excellent
literary criticism.
I suspect we have different ideas about "literary criricism" means. I
use it in a relatively old-fashioned way. For example, like Lowes might
have used it in "The Road to Xanadu" (which is a study very like the
one Asin y Palacios seems to have made).
What bothered me is the statement ""Dante Alighieri's - Divine Comedy"
was, in fact, borrowed from Islam." I am fairly sure, now, that you
don't really mean what that says. The word "borrowed: seems wrong. The
Divine Comedy was not TRANSLATED from any Muslim book. The language of
the poem was not based on any Islamic language. The Italian Politics
were not borrowed. The Cosmology, with Purgatory between Hell and
Heaven is not Islamic. Purgatory is not, so far as I know, an Islamic
idea. About all that remains is the imagery.
Zuiko Azumazi
news:1152188199.2...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> Dante may have been influenced by some Muslim sources when he wrote
> "The Divine Comedy", but the conclusions Azumazi draws from this are
> not sensible. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Putting aside the jibes and quips in your rejoinder.
Well didn't Professor Asin's thesis (and other eminent historians- see list
below) elaborate on that "influence" fact in his "Islam and the Divine
Comedy"? Isn't that what the whole thesis is about, the influence of Islam
on Dante and subsequently western thinking? What "inferences" do I draw, or
need to draw, other than what Professor Asin and his peers wrote about
Islam's impact on mediaeval western scholarship and thought via Dante?
Leaving aside Professor Asin's thesis for the moment let's establish the
bibliography by western historians on this very Dante subject and more
importantly the "burden of proof" (due to the complex nature of what can be
considered a historical "proof" - which differs from a logical proof -
revisionists sometime ask historians to further prove an event which has
been reasonably proved by historic standards, hence accepted as a fact by
the historian community) that you want to deny or bluster your way out of
under your "not sensible" canard:-
Miguel Asin Palacios, La Escatologia Musulmana En La Divina Comedia seguida
de la Historia y critica de una polemica, segunda edicion, Madrid-Granada,
1943. Harold Sunderland (translated by), Islam and the Divine Comedy, John
Murray, Albemarle Street, London, 1926. G.Levi Della Vida, Nuova Luce sulle
Fonti Islamiche Della Divina Commedia in Al-Andalus, revista de las escuelas
de estudios arabes de Madrid y Granada, volumen XIV, fasc 2, 1949. Roberto
Rossi Testa (translator) note al testo e postfazione di Carlo Saccone, Il
Libro della Scala di Maometto, Milano,1991. Gisèle Besson et Michèle
Brossard-Dandré (translators), Le Livre de l’Echelle de Mahomet, Liber Scale
Machometi, Librairie Générale Française, Paris 1991. A.E.Affifi, The
Mystical Philosophy of Muhyid Din-Ibnul Arabi, Cambridge University Press,
1939 Adolfo Federico De Schack, Poesia y Arte de Los Árabes en Espagna y
Sicilia, traduccion del aleman por Juan Valera, 1932. The Cambridge History
of Literature, The Literature of Al-Andalus, edited by Maria Rosa Menocal,
Raymond P.Scheindlin and Michael Sells, Cambridge University Press,
Cambridge, 2000. The Cambridge History of Literature, Religion, Learning and
Science in the ‘Abassid period, edited by M.J.L.Young, J.D.Latham and
R.B.Searjent, CambridgeUniversity Press, Cambridge, 1990 Lenn Evan Goodman,
Ibn Tufayl’s Hayy Ibn Yaqzan, Twayne Publishers, Inc, New York, 1972. D.S.
Margoliouth, The Letters of Abu’l-‘Ala of Ma’arrat Al-Nu’man, Oxford at the
Clarendon Press, 1898. CNRS, Multiple Averroès, Actes du Colloque
International organisé à l’occasion du 850 ième anniversaire de la naissance
d’Averroès, Paris 20-23 septembre 1976, éditions Les Belles Lettres, Paris
1978. Ernest Renan, Averroès et l’Averroisme, Michel Levy Frères,
Libraires-Éditeurs, Paris, 1861. David Abulafia, Frederick II, A Medieval
Emperor, Allen lane, The Penguin Press, London 1988. David Abulafia,
Commerce and Conquest in the Mediterranean, 1100-1500, Variorum Ashgate
Publishing Limited, Aldershot, Hampshire, 1993. David Abulafia, Italy,
Sicily and the Mediterranean 1100-1400, Variorum, London, 1987. David
Abulafia, Mediterranean Encounters, Economic, Religious, Political,
1100-1550, Variorum, Ashgate Publishing Limited, Aldershot, Hampshire, 2000.
Maurice-Ruben Hayoun et Alain De Libera, Avverroès et l’Avverroïsme, Presses
Universitaires de France, Paris, 1991. Claude Addas, Ibn Arabi et le voyage
sans retour, éditions du Seuil, Paris, 1996. Richard Lansing (editor), The
Dante Encyclopedia, Garland Publishing, New York, 2000 Natalino Sapegno, La
Divina Commedia, vol I, Inferno, La Nuova Italia Editrice, Firenze, 1983
Riccardo Merlante/Stefano Prandi, Percorsi Danteschi, Lettura per temi della
divinacommedia, Editrice La Scuola, Brescia, 1997. Enrico Malato, Dante,
Salerno Editrice, Roma, 1999. Riccardo Merlante, Il Dizionario della
Commedia, Zanichelli editore, Bologna, 1999. Antonio Gagliardi, La Tragedia
intellettuale di Dante, Il Convivio, Pullano Editori,Catanzaro,1994. Dante
Alighieri, Il Convivio, introduzione e note di Valentino Piccoli, Torino,
1927. Comité Français Catholique, Sixième centenaire de la mort de Dante,
1921, Bulletin du Jubilé Janvier MCMXXI, n 1, Paris, 1921. Etienne Gilson,
Dante The Philosopher, Sheed and Ward, Ltd, London 1948.
<snip> ...
> It's entirely normal for writers to draw on other writers. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Well that's a matter of relativity and to what extent the writer draws on
the ideas of others. It can reach the point of plagiarism, which you well
know, is the act of taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your
own. But that isn't part of Professor Asin's [origin of the motifs and ideas
present in Dante's work (sic)] thesis, as far as I know. Are you arguing
that it is? ...
<snip> ...
> ... For example,
> the plots of Shakespeare's plays are often based on history chronicles,
> plays, and other works. This hardly makes Shakespeare's plays any less
> great. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
I don't necessarily disagree. But what does the "hardly" mean relative to
Dante's work? I don't think, if you carefully read Professor Asin's erudite
thesis, "Islam and the Divine Comedy", he was trying to denigrate Dante's
work but to establish the linkage, motifs and ideas, its historical
connection with Islam. That, as you said, hardly makes Dante's less great
from a Muslim perspective because of these aforesaid "motifs and ideas", I
would have thought.
But, more appropriately and to the point in the context of your rejoinder:
Shakespeare did say:- "Faith, here's an equivocator, that could swear in
both the scales against either scale, who committed treason enough for God's
sake, yet could not equivocate to heaven." [Shakespeare].
<snip> ...
> Like Shakespeare, Dante is remembered and read still today
> precisely because he outdid his predecessors. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Can you elaborate on which predecessors he outdid? Did you find any direct
reference to that side-issue in your reading of "Islam and the Divine
Comedy"? Or is this just another obfuscators - red herring?
<snip> ...
> ... No work comparable to
> "The Divine Comedy" has been written in the Muslim world. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Is this obvious canard meant to refute Professor Asin's thesis on "Islam and
the Divine Comedy"? On what comparable basis?
<snip> ...
> Even more importantly, both Dante and his putative Muslim sources were
> adherents of the same Abrahamic religious tradition. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Yes, I would expect Professor Asin, as a Jesuit- Catholic Priest, would have
been well aware of the ultimate Abrahamic connection. But that fact, didn't
detract from his thesis did it? Didn't his original work, "La Escatologia
musulman en la Divina Comedia", receive the nihil obstat imprimatur of the
Church?
What has your mendacious "putative" canard got to with Professor Asin's
thesis? Doesn't Professor Asin's learned work thoroughly demolishes this
ignorant "putative" suggestion from yourself?
<snip> ...
> ... The ideas of
> medieval Muslim writers about afterlife were rather unoriginal. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Which unnamed mediaeval Muslim writers are these? Can you elaborate on this
purported unoriginality? Which mediaeval Muslim writers have you studied
compared to Professor Asin? Otherwise what's your point? Is this the weak
extent of your huff and puff refutation of Professor Asin's erudite thesis?
<snip> ...
> ... From a
> nonpartisan perspective it's clear that Muslim sources, including the
> Quran, draw heavily on Jewish and Christian ideas. ...
Comment:-
Shouldn't the appropriate word be bipartisan not "nonpartisan"? But your
"nonpartisan" notion has nothing to do directly with refutation of
Professor Asin's. "Islam and the Divine Comedy" thesis, does it?
<snip> ...
> ... Christians and Jews
> have in turn sometimes been influenced by Muslims, ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Like in Dante's case do you mean? What has this further "partisan"
generalisation got to do with Professor Asin's thesis "Islam and the Divine
Comedy"? But, we note, that "sometimes" is such an inconclusive and
ambiguous word. Is that supposed to cloud the debate?
<snip>
> too, but Muslims
> have a tendency to flatly deny the obvious and overwhelming
> Judeo-Christian influence on Islam, and greatly overstate the influence
> in the opposite direction, just like Azumazi is doing here. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Is that what I'm doing here? I thought I was discussing Professor Asin's
thesis on "Islam and the Divine Comedy", that you appear to want to deny for
partisan reasons. Is Professor Asin a Muslim and not a Jesuit-Catholic
Priest? Isn't his erudite thesis, and those of the other eminent western
historians listed above, nor sufficient evidence? Or should subscribers
follow your argumentum ad ignorantiam along partisan line of "crooked
thinking", which endeavours to discredit this western corpus of historical
works by incredulity like, "obvious", "overwhelming" and "greatly
overstated" from a non-Muslim perspective?
<snip> ...
> Another less-than-holy but crucial influence on Islamic (as well as
> Christian and Jewish) theology and thinking are the pagan philosophers
> of Greece. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
What has this meaningless and sloppy obfuscation and diversionary 'red
herring' got to do with refutation of Professor Asin's thesis "Islam and the
Divine Comedy"?
<snip> ...
> Azumazi, your notion that the study of the sources of a literary work
> is not literary criticism is quaint to say the least. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
So tell us which "sources of literary work" and bibliography are you relying
on in your argument? Isn't their absence a sign of a blustering "Islamic
critics" quaint argumentum ad ignorantiam?
<snip>
> ... Who is, by the
> way, the anonymous writer you quote on this issue? Aside from an
> assertion in that anonymous blurb, can you demonstrate that "all
> eminent scholars of Europe and America" favor Asin's ideas?
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Well you must read the foreword to Harold Sunderland's abridged translation
and perhaps American Historical Review, Vol. 32, No. 1 (Oct., 1926) , pp.
93-96 to find out the gist of this consensus. I'll ignore your other
blustering gibes.
<snip> ...
> You, Azumazi, constantly refer to the ideas of this Thouless fellow, ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
That "Thouless fellow" was Dr Robert Thouless, Reader Emeritus in the
University of Cambridge, and Fellow of Corpus Christi and the Blessed Virgin
Mary College [an undoubted Catholic connection], is that why you have never
heard of him?
<snip> ...
> how about trying to be a "straight thinker" yourself? ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Well it's good to see that you are boning up on "straight thinking", about
time. However, can you provide examples from my transcripts that confirm
your allegations otherwise aren't they are mendacious folderol?
<snip> ...
> ...You expect others
> to abide by rules that neither you nor your God (in the Quran) follow.
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Didn't you say above and I quote "Even more importantly, both Dante and his
putative Muslim sources were adherents of the same Abrahamic religious
tradition"? Isn't the Abrahamic God then the same? To be an intelligent
"straight thinking" critic one must always be consistent.
<snip> ....
> That's called hypocrisy. ...
<snip>...
Comment:-
Yes, you a quite right, isn't the foregoing in your rejoinder evidence of
your own hypocrisy, is it not?
<snip> ...
> For example, in your rants about certain non-Muslim posters in this
> newsgroup you frequently attribute motives and prejudices to them (#38
> in Thouless's list of dishonest tricks). ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Certainly, you are correct, I do mainly criticise "crooked thinking"
Islamophobes and negationists in SRI by referring to what they write. The
difference between us is I support my criticisms from the hard evidence
contained in their transcripts, which Islamophobes generally don't do when
responding to other subscribers. Can that be an attribution? Or, is it just
illustrating the "crooked thinking" implicit in their frequent anti-Islamic
propaganda. Why do you think the "motives and prejudices" of Islamophobes
aren't self-apparent to discerning subscribers? See these links for
details:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia#Runnymede_Trust
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negationism
But tell us which of your so-called "non-Muslim" subscribers that
I've criticised for "crooked thinking" don't fall under the Islamophobe
or "negationism" description? Can you name one from the transcripts?
<snip> ...
> ... In this thread you say that
> "'Divine Comedy' was, in fact, borrowed from Islam". That is, you
> imply ...
Comment:-
No, I said that Professor Asin's erudite thesis "Islam and the Divine
Comedy" posits this understanding. But so did a few other western historians
who have similar ideas like, for instance:- Ozanam, Des sources poétiques de
la Divine Comédie, Paris: D’Ancona, I precursori di Dante, Firenze:
Blochet, Les sources orientales de la Divine Comédie, Paris: A. De Fabricio,
Il “Mi’rag di Maometto in Occidente. In Giornale Storico della Letteratura
Italiana, 1907: Ottolenghi, Un lontano precursore di Dante, Lugano, 1910: J
uan Andres, Del Origen, progreso y estado actual de la Literatura, 1740.
<snip> ...
> that Dante stole the whole work from "Islam", assumably including its
> language (Italian), theological ideas, structure, characters, and even
> the depictions of Muhammad suffering in hell.
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Where in my transcripts do you find any such statement or implication. Is
this further evidence of your own fictive imagination.
<snip> ...
> ... Assuming that Dante
> indeed was influenced by Muslim sources to some extent, you have
> employed trick #2 ("'all' is implied but 'some' is true") on Thouless's
> list. I could point out numerous other "dishonest tricks" that you keep
> using in your posts, but I'll leave it at here.
<snip> ...
Comment:-
But don't all these western experts, eminent historians, like Professor Asin
say exactly that. Have you provide any credible evidence from experts to the
contrary? It's your "assumptions" that are incorrect. However what is the
historical consensus if not, as I said earlier: the burden of proof" (due to
the complex nature of what can be considered a historical "proof" - which
differs from a logical proof - revisionists sometime ask historians to
further prove an event which has been reasonably proved by historic
standards, hence accepted as a fact by the historian community)?
But since you have shown an interest in the west's intellectual debt to
Islam here's an reasonable student bibliography:
1. Kai Hafez (ed), Islam and the West in the Mass Media: Fragmented
Images in a Globalizing World (Cresskill, N.J: Hampton Press, 2000).
2. Maxime Rodinson, Europe and the Mystique of Islam
(Seattle/London: University of Washington Press, 1991).
3. Edward Said, Orientalism (New York: Vintage Books, 1979).
4. Jack Shaheen, Arab and Muslim Stereotyping in American Popular
Culture (Washington D.C.: Georgetown University, 1997).
5. Montgomery Watt, The Influence of Islam on Medieval Europe
(Edinburgh: University Press, 1982).
Select Bibliography for Further Research:
1. Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, Arab Rediscovery of Europe (Princeton:
Princeton University Press, 1963).
2. Al-Jabarti, Napoleon in Egypt: al-Jabarti’s Chronicle of the
French Occupation, tr. Schmuel Moreh (Princeton: Markus Wiener Publishers,
1997, 3rd printing).
3. Zafar Ishaq Ansari and John Esposito (eds), Muslims and the West:
Encounter and Dialogue (Islamabad and Washington D.C.: Islamic Research
Institute and Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, 2001).
4. Clinton Bennett, In Search of Muhammad (London/New York: Cassell,
1998).
5. -------, Victorian Images of Islam (London: Grey Seal, 1992).
6. J. M. Buaben, Image of the Prophet Muhammad in the West: A Study
of Muir, Margoliouth and Watt (Leicester: The Islamic Foundation, 1996).
7. Titus Burckhardt, Moorish Culture in Spain (New York:
McGraw-Hill, 1972)
8. Marie-Th'erèse d'Alverny, La connaissance de l'Islam dans
l'occident m'edi'eval, edited by Charles Burnett (Aldershot: Variorum,
1994).
9. Anwar G. Chejne, Islam and the West: the Moriscos, A Cultural and
Social History (Albany: State University of New York Press, 1983).
10. Norman Daniel, Islam, Europe and Empire (Edinburgh: Edinburgh
University Press, 1966)
11. --------, Islam and the West (Oxford: Oneworld, 1993).
12. --------, The Arabs and Medieval Europe (London/New York: Longman,
1979).
13. --------, Heroes and Saracens: An Interpretation of the Chansons de
Geste (Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1984).
14. Jochen Hippler and Andrea Lueg (eds.), The Next Threat: Western
Perceptions of Islam (London: Photo Press and Translation Institute, 1995).
15. Philip Khury Hitti, Islam and the West: A Historical Cultural Survey
(Princeton: Van Nostrand, 1962).
16. Albert Hourani, Europe and the Middle East (London: Macmillan, 1989).
17. -------, Islam in European Thought (Cambridge & New York: Cambridge
University Press, 1991).
18. Michael Hudson and Ronald G. Wolfe (eds.), The American Media and the
Arabs (Washington D.C.: Center for Contemporary Arab Studies, Georgetown
University, 1980)
19. Adel-Theodore Khoury, Les Théologiens Byzantins et L’Islam: Textes et
Auteurs (Editions Nauwelaerts: Louvain, 1969).
20. James Kritzeck, Peter the Venerable and Islam (Princeton: Princeton
University Press, 1964).
21. Benjamin Z. Kedar, Crusade and Mission: European Approaches toward the
Muslims (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1984).
22. Bernard Lewis, The Muslim Discovery of Europe (New York: W.W. Norton,
1982)
23. ------, Islam and the West (New York/Oxford: Oxford University Press,
1993).
24. Dominique Millet-Gérard, Chrétiens mozarabes et culture islamique dans
l'Espagne des VIIIe-IXe siècles (Paris: Etudes augustiniennes, 1984).
25. Asin Palacios, Islam and the Divine Comedy tr. with abridgment Harold
Sunderland (London: 1926).
26. Jean-Paul Roux, L’Islam en Occident: Europe-Afrique (Paris: Payot,
1959).
27. Daniel J. Sahas, John of Damascus on Islam: the “Heresy of the
Ishmaelites” (Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1972).
28. Khalil Semaan, Islam and the Medieval West: Aspects of Intercultural
Relations (Albany: State University of New York Press, 1980).
29. Fuad Sha’ban, Islam and Arabs in Early American Thought: The Roots of
Orientalism in America (Durham: Acorn Press, 1991).
30. Jack Shaheen, The TV Arab (Ohio: The Popular Press, 1984)
31. Edward Said, Covering Islam (London: Vintage, 1997; first edition
1981).
32. -------, Culture and Imperialism (New York: Knopf, 1993).
33. R. W. Southern, Western Views of Islam in the Middle Ages (Cambridge:
Harvard University Press, 1962).
34. James Windrow Sweetman, Islam and Christian Theology, 2 vols. (London:
Butterworth, 1955).
35. John Victor Tolan, Medieval Christian Perceptions of Islam (New
York/London: Garland Publishing, 1996).
I'll leave it there for the moment.
--
Peace
--
Propaganda does not deceive people; it merely helps them to deceive
themselves. [Eric Hoffer]
Zuiko Azumazi
azu...@hotmail.com
Zuiko Azumazi
news:1152158688.6...@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
<snip> ...
> What bothered me is the statement ""Dante Alighieri's - Divine Comedy"
> was, in fact, borrowed from Islam." I am fairly sure, now, that you
> don't really mean what that says. The word "borrowed: seems wrong. The
> Divine Comedy was not TRANSLATED from any Muslim book. The language of
> the poem was not based on any Islamic language. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
I was using "borrowed" in the same denial (historical revisionism) sense of
what "Islamic critics" have used the word recently in SRI under the
misconceived "The Myth of the West's Intellectual Debt to Islam". Obviously,
if you agree that the term "borrowed" is incorrect when used to describe the
ideas underpinning Professor Asin's remarkable thesis about "Islam and the
Divine Comedy", then you must also agree that its incorrect when it's used
against Islam.
Notwithstanding, that Professor Asin's thesis does confirm and consolidate
the Islamic "origins of the ideas and motifs" behind Dante's-Divine Comedy.
This is what one modern scholar James A. Morris indicates in his lecture
notes:-
Extract:-
"The central, analytical section of Asin's book is undoubtedly the most
dated and problematic, given his avowed intention of "explaining" Ibn
'Arabi's spiritual method by reference to Christian mystical precursors.
However, it is not too difficult for an attentive reader to transform that
historicist perspective into a more appropriate comparative one, thereby
bringing out the universality of the underlying phenomena. And for more
specialized readers with access to the Arabic texts frequently cited, Asin's
detailed references (mainly to works other than the Futűhât) represent the
fruits of years of research that would be difficult to duplicate. More
dangerous than the explicit historicist perspective, however, is the
repeated use of alien and inappropriate interpretive categories - e.g.,
"pantheist," "monist," "theology," "heterodox/orthodox," etc. - which,
although understandable in terms of Asin's intended audience, cannot but
mislead those lacking a firsthand acquaintance with Ibn 'Arabi's works.
Surely nothing has done more to prevent serious study and understanding of
Ibn 'Arabi than the virtually universal repetition of such formulae in
modern secondary literature by authors who (unlike Asin) have had no inkling
of their appropriateness and limitations.21 Finally, readers must be
cautioned that the author here - as in his Islam and the Divine Comedy - has
offered only the evidence that illustrates his thesis; as a result, not
surprisingly, one comes away with little sense of the overwhelming role of
Koran and hadith in all of Ibn 'Arabi's writings, in his own self - image
(as the "Seal of Muhammadan Sainthood"), or in his later influence
throughout the Islamic world. ... [James A. Morris]
End extract
Getting back on track, as I originally predicated:- "Following on from the
oft repeated "myth" theme, here's further proof of the west's debt to Islam.
I wonder if discerning subscribers or SRI's current spate of "Islamic
critics" know that the Catholic Church's much loved Christian poem, "Dante
Alighieri's - Divine Comedy" was, in fact, borrowed from Islam." This was
the argument being presented in SRI to dispel this false "myth" concept
(historical revisionism) constantly espoused by "crooked thinking",
so-called "Islamic critics" in this newsgroup.
What is ironic, in the SRI context, is that these "Islamic critics" (I'm not
bracketing you in this classification) remain silent when such terms as
"borrowed" are used against Islam, but when they are used in reverse they
immediately object. See Victor's post for evidence of the huff, puff and
bluster technique. Isn't this an absolute demonstration of "crooked
thinking"? This prejudice is what I was predictably exposing.
Which raises the question, are these "neocon" posters really "Islamic
critics" since they are prepared to use every dishonest trick (Thouless -
crooked thinking) to discredit Professor Asin's thesis about "Islam and the
Divine Comedy"? Why would these upholders of the western tradition then
vitriolically attack Professor Asin's thesis not on intellectual grounds but
on "politically" (crypto-Christian) motivated ones? Ponder this brief
biographical sketch:
"Miguel Asin Y Palacios (1871-1944) was a Spanish scholar and a Roman
Catholic priest. He is primarily known for his authorship of La Escatologia
musulman en la Divina Comedia ("Islam and the Divine Comedy"), a thesis
detailing the Arab Muslim origins of the ideas and motifs present in Dante's
Divine Comedy." [Wikipedia]
But it would be nice (wishful thinking, perhaps) if non-Muslim subscribers
would at least criticise these "Islamic critics" techniques, misconceived
arguments and misinformation being artfully disseminated in their contrived
casuistry and demonstrative "crooked thinking".
Victor
In my first post I said that it's possible that Dante was influenced by
Muslim writers to some extent. I haven't read Asin's work, but on the
face of it his thesis could be plausible.
However, I was not responding to Asin; I'm not arguing with him. I was
responding to your post in which you assert that the Divine Comedy was
borrowed from Muslims. This, I believe, is a misrepresentation of what
Asin and the other scholars you have now mentioned argue. You claim
they support your assertion, but even without reading any of those
works I claim that they disagree with you. You say that Dante borrowed
his work from Muslims, they say that Dante was influenced by Muslim
writers to some extent (and I bet there's no consensus as to what
extent). None of them would say that the Divine Comedy was "borrowed
from Islam", as that would suggest plagiarism.
If you had made a post where the conclusions of Asin and the others
were correctly represented, without the hyberbole or downright lies
that you contributed, and perhaps presented some concrete examples of
Muslim influence on Dante, then I'd probably have read your post with
interest and would not have posted such a rejoinder as I now did. But
as it was, instead of writing a balanced post on the influences between
Muslim and Christian cultures, you wrote a hyperbolic piece of agitprop
to stoke a "culture war".
> Well didn't Professor Asin's thesis (and other eminent historians- see list
> below) elaborate on that "influence" fact in his "Islam and the Divine
> Comedy"? Isn't that what the whole thesis is about, the influence of Islam
> on Dante and subsequently western thinking? What "inferences" do I draw, or
> need to draw, other than what Professor Asin and his peers wrote about
> Islam's impact on mediaeval western scholarship and thought via Dante?
Yes, Asin writes about the influence of some Islamic sources on Dante.
He does not, unlike your first post would suggest, argue that Dante
borrowed his work from anyone.
> Leaving aside Professor Asin's thesis for the moment let's establish the
> bibliography by western historians on this very Dante subject and more
> importantly the "burden of proof" (due to the complex nature of what can be
> considered a historical "proof" - which differs from a logical proof -
> revisionists sometime ask historians to further prove an event which has
> been reasonably proved by historic standards, hence accepted as a fact by
> the historian community) that you want to deny or bluster your way out of
> under your "not sensible" canard:-
Unless you're really fanatical, I don't think you've actually read all
those works and thus you cannot actually say to what extent they agree
with Asin. But do you agree with me that none of them argue that Dante
borrowed his Comedy from Muslims?
> Well that's a matter of relativity and to what extent the writer draws on
> the ideas of others. It can reach the point of plagiarism, which you well
> know, is the act of taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your
> own. But that isn't part of Professor Asin's [origin of the motifs and ideas
> present in Dante's work (sic)] thesis, as far as I know. Are you arguing
> that it is? ...
Neither I nor Asin claim that Dante plagiarized anything. It's you who
does.
> I don't necessarily disagree. But what does the "hardly" mean relative to
> Dante's work? I don't think, if you carefully read Professor Asin's erudite
> thesis, "Islam and the Divine Comedy", he was trying to denigrate Dante's
> work but to establish the linkage, motifs and ideas, its historical
> connection with Islam. That, as you said, hardly makes Dante's less great
> from a Muslim perspective because of these aforesaid "motifs and ideas", I
> would have thought.
So now you agree that there was no wholesale borrowing, but only
similar motifs and ideas? Very nice, you're making progress.
> Can you elaborate on which predecessors he outdid? Did you find any direct
> reference to that side-issue in your reading of "Islam and the Divine
> Comedy"? Or is this just another obfuscators - red herring?
Dante's Divine Comedy is considered a great artistic summation of an
era's ethos, the real starting point of Italian language literature,
the first great work of the Renaissance, complex and innovative, etc.
etc. All these are mainstream scholarly opinions. Which predecessors
did he not outdo?
> Is this obvious canard meant to refute Professor Asin's thesis on "Islam and
> the Divine Comedy"? On what comparable basis?
For Dante's Divine Comedy to have been borrowed from Islam, there'd
have to be an extremely similar (in scope, structure, characters,
theology, style...), if not completely identical, work in existence in
the Islamic world. No such work exists.
Again, I'm not trying to refute Asin, I'm refuting your claims about
Dante and Asin.
> Yes, I would expect Professor Asin, as a Jesuit- Catholic Priest, would have
> been well aware of the ultimate Abrahamic connection. But that fact, didn't
> detract from his thesis did it? Didn't his original work, "La Escatologia
> musulman en la Divina Comedia", receive the nihil obstat imprimatur of the
> Church?
It's you who doesn't seem to be aware of the Abrahamic connection.
> What has your mendacious "putative" canard got to with Professor Asin's
> thesis? Doesn't Professor Asin's learned work thoroughly demolishes this
> ignorant "putative" suggestion from yourself?
I've not read Asin's work. While his thesis may well be correct, I'm
not going to take your word for it, considering your very exaggerated
and polemical statements that have only served to obfuscate Asin's
ideas.
> Which unnamed mediaeval Muslim writers are these? Can you elaborate on this
> purported unoriginality? Which mediaeval Muslim writers have you studied
> compared to Professor Asin? Otherwise what's your point? Is this the weak
> extent of your huff and puff refutation of Professor Asin's erudite thesis?
The general ideas of divine retribution for sins, of heaven as a place
of rivers and green pastures, of hell as a place of fire and brimstone,
etc. predate Islam. I pointed this out not because of anything Asin has
claimed (in this thread we get to know precious little of Asin's
research anyway, as you have preferred to spout out polemical nonsense
instead of presenting Asin's findings) but because you claim that the
whole of Dante's work was borrowed from Muslims, when in fact Islam --
including its ideas of afterlife -- was greatly influenced by earlier
traditions like Christianity.
> Shouldn't the appropriate word be bipartisan not "nonpartisan"? But your
> "nonpartisan" notion has nothing to do directly with refutation of
> Professor Asin's. "Islam and the Divine Comedy" thesis, does it?
Nonpartisan is the correct word, because I'm referring to mainstream
scholarship that considers both Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as
man-made religions.
The way you represent Asin's thesis in your first post in this thread
("Dante borrowed the Divine Comedy from Islam") is a malicious
misrepresentation of the case, and you also fail to take into account
the fact that the majority of ideas in Dante's work existed in
Christian tradition long before there was a religion named Islam.
And for one more time: I'm not trying to refute Asin's thesis, I'm
refuting your erroneous assertions.
> <snip> ...
> > ... Christians and Jews
> > have in turn sometimes been influenced by Muslims, ...
> <snip> ...
> Like in Dante's case do you mean? What has this further "partisan"
> generalisation got to do with Professor Asin's thesis "Islam and the Divine
> Comedy"? But, we note, that "sometimes" is such an inconclusive and
> ambiguous word. Is that supposed to cloud the debate?
Quite possibly in Dante's case. I'm not trying to cloud anything, I'm
just setting the facts straight. It's you who are obscuring the issue
with your polemics.
> Is that what I'm doing here? I thought I was discussing Professor Asin's
> thesis on "Islam and the Divine Comedy", that you appear to want to deny for
> partisan reasons. Is Professor Asin a Muslim and not a Jesuit-Catholic
> Priest? Isn't his erudite thesis, and those of the other eminent western
> historians listed above, nor sufficient evidence? Or should subscribers
> follow your argumentum ad ignorantiam along partisan line of "crooked
> thinking", which endeavours to discredit this western corpus of historical
> works by incredulity like, "obvious", "overwhelming" and "greatly
> overstated" from a non-Muslim perspective?
Show me where I have denied Asin's thesis. All I have denied is your
malicious misrepresentation thereof. No scholar of repute would claim
that Dante's Comedy was "borrowed from Islam", as they know that the
Comedy is a colossal, intricately structured work that took years for
Dante to compose.
> What has this meaningless and sloppy obfuscation and diversionary 'red
> herring' got to do with refutation of Professor Asin's thesis "Islam and the
> Divine Comedy"?
My pointing out of the Greek influence on Abrahamic religions was an
attempt to put this discussion into a more reasonable context. You
assert that Dante lifted his Comedy from Muslims, whereas I claim that
the ideas that inform Dante's work come from far more diverse sources,
including pagan ones. As an additional example, the idea of a man taken
to see the hereafter while still alive appears already in the
Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, which predates Abrahamic religions by
millenia (in the Gilgamesh story Enkidu recounts his dream in which he
was taken to the land of death by a "sombre-faced man-bird"). There are
many other similar myths in different cultures, but I would never say
that, for example, the story of Muhammad's Night Journey was directly
borrowed from them. To say that Dante's Comedy was directly borrowed
from Islam is a similarly erroneous view.
> So tell us which "sources of literary work" and bibliography are you relying
> on in your argument? Isn't their absence a sign of a blustering "Islamic
> critics" quaint argumentum ad ignorantiam?
I don't understand what you're saying. I was just pointing out that
literary criticism encompasses the study of the influences on literary
works. Look at any book review and chances are that it contains
speculation about the influence of others writers and books on that
particular book. Do you think such speculations disqualify a review as
literary criticism?
> Didn't you say above and I quote "Even more importantly, both Dante and his
> putative Muslim sources were adherents of the same Abrahamic religious
> tradition"? Isn't the Abrahamic God then the same? To be an intelligent
> "straight thinking" critic one must always be consistent.
The gods, fairies and hobgoblins of various religions are the same
entities only if they are defined identically by different religions.
The God concepts of Abrahamic religions differ from each other,
sometimes radically (e.g. the trinity), so the answer to your question
is definitely 'no'.
> Yes, you a quite right, isn't the foregoing in your rejoinder evidence of
> your own hypocrisy, is it not?
As I've demonstrated, I'm being completely consistent. However, had I
engaged in "crooked thinking", you still could not accuse me of
hypocrisy, as I have neved claimed to follow Thouless's dictates.
> Certainly, you are correct, I do mainly criticise "crooked thinking"
> Islamophobes and negationists in SRI by referring to what they write. The
> difference between us is I support my criticisms from the hard evidence
> contained in their transcripts, which Islamophobes generally don't do when
> responding to other subscribers. Can that be an attribution? Or, is it just
> illustrating the "crooked thinking" implicit in their frequent anti-Islamic
> propaganda. Why do you think the "motives and prejudices" of Islamophobes
> aren't self-apparent to discerning subscribers? See these links for
> details:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia#Runnymede_Trust
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negationism
>
> But tell us which of your so-called "non-Muslim" subscribers that
> I've criticised for "crooked thinking" don't fall under the Islamophobe
> or "negationism" description? Can you name one from the transcripts?
Their possible prejudices and motives are rather irrelevant. Let me
quote from Thouless: "[...] the question of why a person holds an
opinion is an entirely different question from that of whether the
opinion is or is not true." That is, you should address the claims they
make, regardless of why they make such claims. Instead of trying to
rebuke their claims, you have many times just speculated about their
motives. Thouless calls such a tactic "crooked thinking". Why a person
holds some opinion can of course always be discussed, but the primary
concern in a discussion should always be whether the claims made are
true or false.
> No, I said that Professor Asin's erudite thesis "Islam and the Divine
> Comedy" posits this understanding. But so did a few other western historians
> who have similar ideas like, for instance:- Ozanam, Des sources poétiques de
> la Divine Comédie, Paris: D'Ancona, I precursori di Dante, Firenze:
> Blochet, Les sources orientales de la Divine Comédie, Paris: A. De Fabricio,
> Il "Mi'rag di Maometto in Occidente. In Giornale Storico della Letteratura
> Italiana, 1907: Ottolenghi, Un lontano precursore di Dante, Lugano, 1910: J
> uan Andres, Del Origen, progreso y estado actual de la Literatura, 1740.
I don't believe that Asin et al claim that Dante "borrowed the Divine
Comedy from Islam". Please demonstrate your claim, preferably with
verbatim quotations from their works.
> <snip> ...
> > that Dante stole the whole work from "Islam", assumably including its
> > language (Italian), theological ideas, structure, characters, and even
> > the depictions of Muhammad suffering in hell.
> <snip> ...
>
> Comment:-
> Where in my transcripts do you find any such statement or implication. Is
> this further evidence of your own fictive imagination.
If it only in my fictive imagination, then it seems that I share my
imagination with kleinecke, who made exactly the same inference. Just a
hint: when two people independently make the same inference from your
argument, then it is very probable that the argument has been
formulated in a way that makes such an inference not only possible but
probable.
If you don't actually mean that Dante's work "The Divine Comedy" was
borrowed from Islam, please don't say so. It confuses people.
> > ... Assuming that Dante
> > indeed was influenced by Muslim sources to some extent, you have
> > employed trick #2 ("'all' is implied but 'some' is true") on Thouless's
> > list. I could point out numerous other "dishonest tricks" that you keep
> > using in your posts, but I'll leave it at here.
> <snip> ...
>
> But don't all these western experts, eminent historians, like Professor Asin
> say exactly that. Have you provide any credible evidence from experts to the
> contrary? It's your "assumptions" that are incorrect. However what is the
> historical consensus if not, as I said earlier: the burden of proof" (due to
> the complex nature of what can be considered a historical "proof" - which
> differs from a logical proof - revisionists sometime ask historians to
> further prove an event which has been reasonably proved by historic
> standards, hence accepted as a fact by the historian community)?
So you are still asserting that the whole of Dante's work was borrowed
(i.e. plagiarised) from "Islam", and that Asin and others say the same
thing? Please provide evidence thereof. Verbatim quatations from a few
authors would be nice.
Zuiko Azumazi
<snip> ...
> In my first post I said that it's possible that Dante was influenced by
> Muslim writers to some extent. I haven't read Asin's work, but on the
> face of it his thesis could be plausible.
Comment:-
Well as I said before the consensus of the historian community, experts in
this specialist area, is on Asin's side. I'm not an expert, so I must accede
to the authoritative consensus that determines the historical truth. Isn't
that the sensible thing to do? What has the "plausibility" got to do with
it, if the historian consensus already confirms its accuracy? Isn't this
just muddying the waters?
<snip>
> However, I was not responding to Asin; I'm not arguing with him. I was
> responding to your post in which you assert that the Divine Comedy was
> borrowed from Muslims. ...
<snip> ...
Comment:-
No, you are wrong, I asserted nothing, all I did was provide subscribers
with Asin's erudite historical conclusions, which were and I requote them
from my original post:-
Extract.
"After years of extensive research, he- discovered parallels between the
Islamic lore about the afterlife based on Hadith and The Divine Comedy by
the Italian poet Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), a work for which he is justly
famed. The similarities, far from being superficial, pervade the entire
poem. Prof. Asin concluded that Dante had derived most of the features of
and episodes about the hereafter from (i) the Hadith literature relating to
the Prophet Muhammad and his ascension (mi`raj) and (ii) to the spiritual
visions of Ibn al-Arabi. In his opinion, The Divine Comedy was not an
entirely original work, as Dante had had before him a ready made pattern
based on Islamic writings on the after-life."
End extract.
Doesn't "borrow" mean "take up and practice as one's own", Isn't this
exactly what Asin's thesis posits in the last sentence immediately above? Or
are we having a "verbal dispute" over how the word "borrowed" is being used?
Now, what am I asserting here that you want to dispute? Is it that I brought
to the attention of subscribers Professor Asin's dissertation on the Divine
Comedy and its connection with Islam spelt out above? What is the
misrepresentation here? Isn't this clear "The Divine Comedy was not an
entirely original work, as Dante had had before him a ready made pattern
based on Islamic writings on the after-life."?
Notwithstanding, the remainder of you post that indulges in what I've
mentioned before as "historical revisionism" (negationism). An "Islamic
critics" tactic that is not uncommon in SRI. For example, isn't your "Burden
of Proof" canard straight out of this artful "historical revisionism"
technique at this informative link:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negationism
Extract:-
Burden of proof (due to the complex nature of what can be considered a
historical "proof" - which differs from a logical proof - revisionists
sometime ask historians to further prove an event which has been reasonably
proved by historic standards, hence accepted as a fact by the historian
community).
End extract.
--
Peace
--
Truth gains more . . . by the errors of one who, with due study and
preparation, thinks for himself than by the true opinions of those who only
hold them because they do not suffer themselves to think." [John Stuart
Mill]
Zuiko Azumazi
azu...@hotmail.com
Victor
> exactly what Asin's thesis posits in the last sentence immediately above? Or
> are we having a "verbal dispute" over how the word "borrowed" is being used?
>
> Now, what am I asserting here that you want to dispute? Is it that I brought
> to the attention of subscribers Professor Asin's dissertation on the Divine
> Comedy and its connection with Islam spelt out above? What is the
> misrepresentation here? Isn't this clear "The Divine Comedy was not an
> entirely original work, as Dante had had before him a ready made pattern
> based on Islamic writings on the after-life."?
Actually, there is no dispute between us over how you used the word
"borrowed". We both agree that you used it incorrectly. You admitted
this in your above reply to kleinecke who also pointed out the
erroneous use. Let me quote from you:
I was using "borrowed" in the same denial (historical
revisionism) sense of what "Islamic critics" have
used the word recently in SRI under the misconceived
"The Myth of the West's Intellectual Debt to Islam".
Obviously, if you agree that the term "borrowed" is
incorrect when used to describe the ideas underpinning
Professor Asin's remarkable thesis about "Islam and the
Divine Comedy", then you must also agree that its
incorrect when it's used against Islam.
As I have repeatedly stated, my beef with your original post was that
you didn't present Asin's thesis as it is but tried to force your own
polemical, erroneous ideas on it. To quote you, mutatis mutandis, from
another thread: As they say there is information and there is
unscrupulous misinformation. What do you subscribers think about the
"Divine Comedy was borrowed from Islam" being predicated after you have
studied the facts? Are you convinced of the "wholesale borrowing"
thesis? Or do you feel that you were being exploited and manipulated?
You be the judge.
When you have yourself admitted (to kleinecke) that you were
deliberately engaging in "historical revisionism", and everyone can
read that admission, it's puzzling that you are now denying that you
had any such intention.
In your reply to kleinecke you also wrote:
> What is ironic, in the SRI context, is that these "Islamic critics" (I'm not
> bracketing you in this classification) remain silent when such terms as
> "borrowed" are used against Islam, but when they are used in reverse they
> immediately object. See Victor's post for evidence of the huff, puff and
> bluster technique. Isn't this an absolute demonstration of "crooked
> thinking"? This prejudice is what I was predictably exposing.
>
> Which raises the question, are these "neocon" posters really "Islamic
> critics" since they are prepared to use every dishonest trick (Thouless -
> crooked thinking) to discredit Professor Asin's thesis about "Islam and the
> Divine Comedy"? Why would these upholders of the western tradition then
> vitriolically attack Professor Asin's thesis not on intellectual grounds but
> on "politically" (crypto-Christian) motivated ones? Ponder this brief
> biographical sketch:
You seem to associate me with some nefarious "neocon" clique, and to
castigate me for remaining silent when some non-Muslims in this
newsgroup have resorted to the same kind of "crooked thinking" that you
self-admittedly have in this thread.
Firstly, if you want to promote "straight thinking" in SRI, I think you
should stop using the nebulous term 'neocon'. You seem to use the term
in the same way that some other Muslims use such words as 'Zionist' or
'Jew', that is, as an abusive term that encompasses everybody whom you
consider your adversaries, completely regardless of their actual
opinions and positions. There is no consensus as to what 'neocon'
actually means, and I don't think I -- as a social democrat opposed to
many of the current American government's positions, especially in the
area of foreign policy -- fit into any of the various definitions the
term has.
Secondly, it's very unreasonable for you to expect me, or others, to
act as some kind of "straight thinking" policeman in SRI, who would
rebuke all posts that seem to contain "historical revisionism" or
"crooked thinking". I have neither the time for nor any interest in
such an endeavor. Incidentally, nor would you seem to have bothered to
express your disapproval when certain Muslim posters have resorted to
revisionism in SRI in furtherance of their ideological positions. For
example, Altway has several times engaged in an extreme kind of
historical revisionism by attributing all central developments in the
West, from the Renaissance and the Reformation to the Enlightenment and
the American political system and beyond, to Islam. I haven't seen you
challenge these views, despite the fact that they fly in the face of
the consensus opinion of reputable historians. But you know what? I
don't expect you, or anyone else, to voice disapproval every time
someone expresses lunatic opinions here. Everyone here has limited time
and different interests, and accordingly they choose to contribute to
those topics that interest them.
> Notwithstanding, the remainder of you post that indulges in what I've
> mentioned before as "historical revisionism" (negationism). An "Islamic
> critics" tactic that is not uncommon in SRI. For example, isn't your "Burden
> of Proof" canard straight out of this artful "historical revisionism"
> technique at this informative link:-
It's very convenient for you to brush off as "negationism" the
remainder of my post, where I exposed your many non sequiturs.
Zuiko Azumazi
<snip> ...
> > Doesn't "borrow" mean "take up and practice as one's own", Isn't this
> > exactly what Asin's thesis posits in the last sentence immediately
above? Or
> > are we having a "verbal dispute" over how the word "borrowed" is being
used?
<snip> ...
> > Now, what am I asserting here that you want to dispute? Is it that I
brought
> > to the attention of subscribers Professor Asin's dissertation on the
Divine
> > Comedy and its connection with Islam spelt out above? What is the
> > misrepresentation here? Isn't this clear "The Divine Comedy was not an
> > entirely original work, as Dante had had before him a ready made pattern
> > based on Islamic writings on the after-life."?
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Well let's check the transcripts for the hard-evidence to demonstrate the
facts surrounding this subject "The West's "Dantes - Divine Comedy -
borrowed from Islam". And, to confirm once more the "crooked thinking"
technique employed by so-called "Islamic critics" to win by unscrupulous
means:-
Kleinecke wrote:- "What bothered me is the statement "Dante Alighieri's -
Divine Comedy"was, in fact, borrowed from Islam." I am fairly sure, now,
that you
don't really mean what that says. The word "borrowed: seems wrong."
Zuiko replied:- "I was using "borrowed" in the same denial (historical
revisionism) sense of what "Islamic critics" have used the word recently in
SRI under the misconceived "The Myth of the West's Intellectual Debt to
Islam". Obviously, if you agree that the term "borrowed" is incorrect when
used to describe the ideas underpinning Professor Asin's remarkable thesis
about "Islam and the Divine Comedy", then you must also agree that its
incorrect when it's used against Islam."
Victor wrote:- "However, I was not responding to Asin; I'm not arguing with
him. I was responding to your post in which you assert that the Divine
Comedy was borrowed from Muslims. This, I believe, is a misrepresentation of
what Asin and the other scholars you have now mentioned argue."
Zuiko replied:- "No, you are wrong, I asserted nothing, all I did was
provide subscribers with Asin's erudite historical conclusions, which were
and I requote them from my original post:-
Extract.
"After years of extensive research, he- discovered parallels between the
Islamic lore about the afterlife based on Hadith and The Divine Comedy by
the Italian poet Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), a work for which he is justly
famed. The similarities, far from being superficial, pervade the entire
poem. Prof. Asin concluded that Dante had derived most of the features of
and episodes about the hereafter from (i) the Hadith literature relating to
the Prophet Muhammad and his ascension (mi`raj) and (ii) to the spiritual
visions of Ibn al-Arabi. In his opinion, The Divine Comedy was not an
entirely original work, as Dante had had before him a ready made pattern
based on Islamic writings on the after-life."
End extract.
Doesn't "borrow" mean "take up and practice as one's own", Isn't this
exactly what Asin's thesis posits in the last sentence immediately above? Or
are we having a "verbal dispute" over how the word "borrowed" is being used?
Now, what am I asserting here that you want to dispute? Is it that I brought
to the attention of subscribers Professor Asin's dissertation on the Divine
Comedy and its connection with Islam spelt out above? What is the
misrepresentation here? Isn't this clear "The Divine Comedy was not an
entirely original work, as Dante had had before him a ready made pattern
based on Islamic writings on the after-life."?"
Victor replied:- "Actually, there is no dispute between us over how you used
the word "borrowed". We both agree that you used it incorrectly. You
admitted
this in your above reply to kleinecke who also pointed out the erroneous
use. "
So I put it to you Victor, where have you established that the word
"borrowed" has been used incorrectly? Where does Kleinecke say that
"borrowed" was erroneous? Didn't he say borrowed "seemed" (i.e. appear to
Kleinecke's own mind or opinion) wrong? That isn't "was" is it, Victor? What
part of this proposition: "The Divine Comedy was not an entirely original
work, as Dante had had before him a ready made pattern based on Islamic
writings on the after-life.", don't you understand in the "borrowed"
context? Is "Dante had had before him a ready made pattern based on Islamic
writings" not a borrowing [i.e. "the appropriation (of ideas or words etc)
from another source]? Aren't you trying to deny this "borrowing" by Dante
from Islamic writings", the consensus derived at by the authoritative
western historian community?
Just more huff, puff, bluff and bluster, I would say, as a "straight
thinking" bigot. Other subscribers can judge for themselves based on the
hard-evidence in the transcripts, not malicious assertions, obviously.
Paul Schrum
Zuiko Azumazi wrote:
> Following on from the oft repeated "myth" theme, here's further proof of the
> west's debt to Islam. I wonder if discerning subscribers or SRI's current
> spate of "Islamic critics" know that the Catholic Church's much loved
> Christian poem, "Dante Alighieri's - Divine Comedy" was, in fact, borrowed
> from Islam:-
>
<snip>
Mr. Azumazi,
I am very interested in the subject you have raised here. However, I
notice that in this thread no specifics have been given. The specifics
are important for anyone to do any independent work on the subject.
Can you give specifics? What are the topics of borrowing? Is it the
descriptions of hell? If so, does Asin give the refernce in Dante and
the Hadith or Qur'an reference which Dante borrows? I would ask the
same question regarding paradise scenes?
- Paul
Schrum
Zuiko Azumazi
bring home the point surrounding this "The West's "Dantes - Divine Comedy"
borrowed from Islam" discussion. The continued denial of the consensus of
the authoritative western historian community concerning Professor Asin's
work "Islam and the Divine Comedy, by some "Islamic critics" needs to be
soundly refuted, as this seminar article reveals at these links:-
http://www.geocities.com/DanteStudies/index.html
Seminar Extract:-
"ARABIC AND JUDAIC INFLUENCES IN AND AROUND DANTE ALIGHIERI"
["Presenze arabe e ebraiche 'in' e 'intorno' a Dante Alighieri"]
to be held at Gonville and Caius College (Bateman Auditorium) at the
University of Cambridge on Wednesday 10th and Thursday 11th September 2003
End extract.
http://www.geocities.com/DanteStudies/ceccoli1.html
Extract:-
"La Teoria di Asin Palacios dal 1919 ai Giorni Nostri"
by Guido Bellatti Ceccoli
SUMMARY: Asin Palacios ha ripreso e sviluppato un'idea già esistente:
l'influenza della letteratura escatologica musulmana sulla Divina Commedia
di Dante Alighieri. Secondo lo studioso spagnolo, che ha presentato la sua
teoria nel 1919, il contatto tra le due culture – cristiana e araba – fu
stabilito tramite la Corte di Alfonso X, ed in particolare grazie al
"maestro" Brunetto Latini, ambasciatore a Toledo. Dopo la morte di Asin
Palacios (1948), fu ritrovato il "Libro della scala di Maometto", che era
stato tradotto in latino e in francese da Bonaventura da Siena.
La teoria di Asin Palacios fu quindi rilanciata, dato che Cerulli e Munoz
Sendino ripresero l'idea del canale andaluso aggiungendo al primo possibile
contatto Dante – Latini la possibilità di uno scambio con Bonaventura, con
particolare riferimento a un testo sul viaggio notturno del Profeta che
costituisce uno dei massimi esempi della letteratura islamica ispirata dai
versetti coranici che ne stanno a fondamento.
Le possibili influenze di Ibn Arabi, Al Maarri, Sanâi e altri musulmani
sulla Commedia di Dante sono state riprese anche in seguito da vari
studiosi, come Maria Corti – recentemente scomparsa – e Carlo Ossola, che
con un suo scritto in proposito ha aperto la traduzione italiana di "Dante e
l'Islam" di Asin Palacios, (ri)lanciando nuove piste di ricerca. Il
dibattito, assai controverso, resta quindi ancora aperto e desta ancora
grande interesse tra tutti coloro che si occupano della questione
dell'"anello mancante" nell'opera dantesca."
Which roughly translated into English is:-
"The Theory of Asin Palacios from 1919 to the Present Day”
by Guido Bellatti Ceccoli
SUMMARY: Asin Palacios has resumed and developed a already existing idea:
the infuence of the Muslim eschatological literature on the Divine Commedia
di Dante Alighieri. According to the Spanish scholar, that it has introduced
its theory in 1919, the contact between the two cultures - Christian and
Arabic - was established through the Court of Alfonso X, and in particular
thanks to “Latin master” Brunetto, ambassador to Toledo. After the dead
women of Asin Palacios (1948), the “Book of the scale of Maometto” was found
again, that it had been translate in Latin and French from Bonaventura from
Siena.
The theory of Asin Palacios therefore was thrown again, since Cerulli and
Munoz Sendino resumed the idea of the channel al Andalusia adding to the
first possible Dante contact - Latin the possibility of an exchange with
Bonaventura, with particular reference to a text on the nocturnal travel of
the Prophet who constitutes one of the maximum examples of the literature
inspired Muslim from the Quranic verses that are some to foundation.
The possible influences of Ibn Arabi, To the Maarri, Sanâi and other Muslims
on the Commedia di Dante have been resumptions also from later on several
students, like Maria Short - recently passing - and Carl Ossola, than with
written its in purpose it has opened the Italian translation of “Dante and
the Islam” of Asin Palacios, (rivers) launch new tracks of search. The
debate, much controversial, still remains therefore opened and arouses still
great interest between all those who takes care of the issue of the “ring
lacking” in the work Dante the chair.”
I refrained from mentioning this historical activity before since I wanted
to gauge the "knee-jerk" responses from the vociferous "Islamic critic"
cabal and their preconceived notions about everything Islamic based on their
prejudice.
To summarise, I hope that discerning subscribers, Muslim and non-Muslim,
will see all the huff, puff, bluff and bluster surrounding some of the
commentaries emanating from Islamophobe subscribers, in their attempts in
SRI, to denigrate Islam and Muslims. Derogatory articles about "The Golden
Age of Islam in Spain" and "The Myth of the West's Intellectual Debt to
Islam" are just another illustration of these unscrupulous techniques based
on total ignorance of the historical subject matter, as well as the
historical truth of Islam and Muslims and its undoubted impact on the West.
Did I make my case? You be the judge.