Muslim Tolerance
wmangoes
religions and how it works. I would appreciate your input,
particularly if you can back it up with quotes from scripture from the
Koran or hadith, with numbers so I can verify it.
First, there are "people of the book". In the Koran, this is
mentioned several times, never as "people of the book" but as "Jews,
Christians, and Sabians", Sabians probably being some religion that
does not exist anymore.
Question 1: Are Hindus now considered "people of the book"?
Question 2: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law is
put into place, how are "people of the book" to be treated?
My guess is:
-- they can keep their beliefs, they don't have to become Muslims.
-- they might have to pay higher taxes than Muslims, even after
taking mandatory Muslim almsgiving into account.
-- Muslims might smash their idols and temples and build Muslim
temples in their holiest places.
Has anybody else got anything to add here?
Question 3: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
is put into place, how are Atheists to be treated?
My guess is
-- they have a choice of conversion or death
Question 4: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
is put into place, how are Agnostics (People who say they don't know
if there is a god or not) to be treated?
My guess is
-- they have a choice of conversion or death
Question 5: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
is put into place, how are Deists (people who believe there is a god,
but he is not the god of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims) to be
treated?
My guess is
-- they have a choice of conversion or death
Saqib Virk
"wmangoes" <wman...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:a8cpvb$2u0$1...@samba.rahul.net...
>
> Question 3: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Atheists to be treated?
>
> My guess is
> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
SV
What have you heard or read that leads you to this guess? Your guess is
wrong. People are free to believe as they wish.
"It is the truth from your Lord; therefore let him who will believe and let
him who will disbelieve." [Quran 18:29]
--
Peace,
Saqib Virk
vmi...@yahoo.com
law. I will bease my responses on what my heart says should be, in keeping
with the spirit of Islam.
wmangoes <wman...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I have a number of questions about how Muslim tolerance of other
> religions and how it works. I would appreciate your input,
> particularly if you can back it up with quotes from scripture from the
> Koran or hadith, with numbers so I can verify it.
> Question 1: Are Hindus now considered "people of the book"?
I believe the Islamic view is that Messengers of God(SWT) were sent to
all nations, with His Guidance. Quran is silent about any specific book
being directed to the Hindus, so it is difficult to say with any certainty
whether they are the people of the Book.
> Question 2: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law is
> put into place, how are "people of the book" to be treated?
> My guess is:
> -- they can keep their beliefs, they don't have to become Muslims.
. Yes
> -- they might have to pay higher taxes than Muslims, even after
> taking mandatory Muslim almsgiving into account.
. I doubt this. Mandatory zakat for muslims is a wealth tax.
Any taxes that non-muslims pay, in lieu of protection of
their right and military duty, will most likely be less
than the overall taxes paid by muslims.
> -- Muslims might smash their idols and temples and build Muslim
> temples in their holiest places.
. Not true. They will be able to maintain their temples
and worship in them. Muslims are required to respect
the places of worship and not demolish them.
>
> Question 3: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Atheists to be treated?
>
> My guess is
> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
. No. There cannot be any compulsion in matters of belief
of non-muslims.
>
> Question 4: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Agnostics (People who say they don't know
> if there is a god or not) to be treated?
>
> My guess is
> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
. No. There cannot be any compulsion in matters of beliefs
for any non-muslims.
>
> Question 5: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Deists (people who believe there is a god,
> but he is not the god of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims) to be
> treated?
>
> My guess is
> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
. No. There cannot be any compulsion in matters of beliefs
for any non-muslims.
--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service
Moataz Emam
> Question 1: Are Hindus now considered "people of the book"?
No.
> Question 2: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law is
> put into place, how are "people of the book" to be treated?
As citizens of the country equally with Muslims. Read on the history of,
say, the Islamic invasion of Egypt. The only difference is if a war
between the Muslim inhabitants and some external entity arises, AND the
Muslims had to go to war to protect their beliefs. In this case (and in
this case ONLY), nonMuslims in the country are treated differently. They
are not required to go to war to protect Islam. That is why they are
required to pay Jezya, which is a small extra tax paid to the government
as a contribution instead of their going to war. If the war is for
another reason, like protecting the whole country, then all go to war.
In all the wars Egypt went to with Israel, Egyptian Christians fought
along side their Muslim brothers and died defending their country too.
> My guess is:
> -- they can keep their beliefs, they don't have to become Muslims.
Correct.
> -- they might have to pay higher taxes than Muslims, even after
> taking mandatory Muslim almsgiving into account.
Correct, see above for why. As for the mandatory almsgiving, this is
like prayers, should not be enforced by law. In fact, in early Islam it
was never legally enforced. Your choice to obey God or not. No one can
or should force you to pray, fast etc. To my knowledge, the Taliban are
the only regime who tried to enforce these things by law.
> -- Muslims might smash their idols and temples and build Muslim
> temples in their holiest places.
Nope! Not allowed. Respect to their beliefs is important. Visit Egypt,
Churches and Jewish Temples from preIslamic times are still standing in
prominent places. (I use Egypt as an example, because I am familiar with
it the most but there are plenty other examples). BTW, there are no
temples in Islam. A mosque is NOT a temple. It is simply a gathering
place for prayers. It is not holy ground or any such nonsense.
> Question 3: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Atheists to be treated?
>
> My guess is
> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
Nope! After failing to convert some, Mohammed was instructed to tell the
nonbelievers who were not people of the book that they "have their
religion and I have mine".
> Question 4: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Agnostics (People who say they don't know
> if there is a god or not) to be treated?
>
> My guess is
> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
Nope! Same as 3.
> Question 5: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Deists (people who believe there is a god,
> but he is not the god of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims) to be
> treated?
>
> My guess is
> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
Nope! Same as 3 and 4.
You can guess all you want, but both history and Islamic text do not
support your guesses. If you have particular incidents in mind (as
pertaining to India and so on), please do not generalize. Islam does not
kill people for religion, period. If some Muslims do it, they do it
despite of Islam, not because of it.
--
Moataz H. Emam
Ohmyrus
>wrong. People are free to believe as they wish.
>
What about the Hadith that says, "Kill those who change their religion."
thebit
> Question 1: Are Hindus now considered "people of the book"?
The term "People of the Book" only refers to the Jews and Christians (and
Sabians). However, this term was extended to the Hindus in Muslim India. I
suppose it is open to interpretation (like everything), but IMO, extending
the term beyond the Jews and Christians has little basis. I am open to
correction.
> Question 2: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law is
> put into place, how are "people of the book" to be treated?
>
> My guess is:
> -- they can keep their beliefs, they don't have to become Muslims.
True.
> -- they might have to pay higher taxes than Muslims, even after
> taking mandatory Muslim almsgiving into account.
The Classical Interpreation is that the Jizyah is a tax given by those who
have "protected" religions (Jews, Christians and in parts of the world
Hindus and Buddhists). It is a tax in return for having their person,
families and property protected. A useful reference is by A. I. Doi called
"Non-Muslims under the Shari'ah (Islamic Law)".
However, from other scholarly work, I understand that the Jizyah was a
punishment on the People of the Book for their refusal to accept a
Messenger, when he came to them with clear signs. It is part of the
punishment of God that he makes the believers in the new Messenger gain
supremacy in the land, while the punishment for those believers in God is
political subservience. It happened before to the Jews when they rejected
Jesus (p). The reference for this is in Urdu, but you can access what are
(in essence) translations of this work at:
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/questions.jsp?point=3&id=166
> -- Muslims might smash their idols and temples and build Muslim
> temples in their holiest places.
No. I think this is wrong. Muslims certainly never entered Churches and
smashed, what Muslims (and even some Christians) might perceive to be
"idols" (I am referring to the icons of Jesus, Mary (pbut)).
> Has anybody else got anything to add here?
A non-Muslim who has agreed a contract with the State is granted full
rights. He/she also has the right for their own personal affairs to be
decided by courts of their own traditions. For example Catholics can have
their marriage, divorce, inheretence etc. decided by their own courts and
canonical law. In other cases the person will come under the jurisdiction
of the State authorities.
> Question 3: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Atheists to be treated?
>
> My guess is
> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
The same as any person who agrees a contract with State. They become
citizens of the state, and have the right to vote, voice opinions etc.
> Question 4: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Agnostics (People who say they don't know
> if there is a god or not) to be treated?
>
> My guess is
> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
See above.
> Question 5: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Deists (people who believe there is a god,
> but he is not the god of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims) to be
> treated?
>
> My guess is
> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
Again see above. I am quite surprised you mentioned this. Muslims have
been in India for several hundred years, yet this never happened (with the
bad exception).
wmangoes
That is an interesting quote, thank you for bringing it to my
attention, but let's look at the whole sentence:
[18.29] And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please
believe, and let him who please disbelieve; surely We have
prepared for the iniquitous a fire, the curtains of which shall
encompass them about; and if they cry for water, they shall be given
water like molten brass which will scald their faces; evil the drink
and ill the resting-place.
The reason I am asking this question is I am not sure. The prevailing
message I get from reading the Koran previously, is that unbelievers
will be punished by Allah and so there is no need for men to do it
during life. [18.29] which you have provided, is interesting in that
it actually says this.
Hindus have told me Muslims sometimes have shown a fondness for
"conversion by force" in India, and another westerner who had read the
Koran had the impression the Koran says that when a country is
conquered by Islam, people who are neither Muslims nor people of the
book were all to be put to the sword. So I am interested in more
feedback on to clarify this very important point. But the little you
have given me is relevant and informative, thank you.
wmangoes
How do you reconcile this with
Hadith 4:52:260 ... the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim)
discards his religion, kill him.' "
-----------------
Koran [9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who
are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah
is with those who guard (against evil).
I checked the context on this one and it does not provide any
establishment of provocation on the part of the unbeliever, other than
just being an unbeliever.
-------------------
Hadith Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against
the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped
but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers
perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that,
then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws
and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
----------------------
Koran 9.5 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the
idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege
them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and
keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;
surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
wmangoes
reports that living under Muslim rule, Hindus have the following 20
"disabilities" imposed on them in addition to having to pay a special
tax:
1.They are not to build any new places of worship.
2.They are not to repair any old places of worship which have been
destroyed by the muslims.
3.They are not to prevent muslim travellers from staying in their
places of worship.
4.They are to entertain for 3 days any Muslim who wants to stay in
their homes and for a longer period if the
muslim falls ill.
5.They are not to harbor any hostility or give aid and comfort to
hostile elements.
6.They are not to prevent any one of them from getting converted to
Islam.
7.They have to show respect to every Muslim.
8.They have to allow Muslims to participate in their private
meetings.
9.They are not to dress like muslims.
10.They are not to name themselves with Muslim names.
11.They are not to ride on horses with saddle and bridle.
12.They are not to possess arms.
13.They are not to wear signet or seals on their fingers.
14.They are not to sell or drink liquor openly
15.They are to wear a distinctive dress which shows their inferior
status and separates them from Muslims.
16.They are not to propagate their custom and usages among the
muslims.
17.They are not to build their houses in the neighbourhood of
muslims.
18.They are not to bring their dead near the graveyards of the
muslims.
19.They are not to observe their religious practices publicly or
mourn their dead loudly.
20.They are not to buy muslim slaves.
thebit
> Hadith 4:52:260 ... the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim)
> discards his religion, kill him.' "
Explained in another post:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=a6uu40%24pk7%241%40samba.rahul.net&rnum=13
The Qur'an mentions apostasy several times, but never mentions a punishment (in
this world). The Qur'an also mentions there is no compulsion in Religion.
> I checked the context on this one and it does not provide any
> establishment of provocation on the part of the unbeliever, other than
> just being an unbeliever.
The context starts from verse 1. And this order too is to punish the Rejectors
of a Messenger (see my other reply to you in this thread). It is also a means of
testing the hypocrites. Finally war is also a means of rooting out injustice and
oppression. The last is the sole reason why Muslims, today, may fight a war.
> Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against
> the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped
> but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle..."
See the above link. A Messenger of God has, if he manages to form a State, the
right to make war to spread Religion. Notice that the hadeeth says "I have been
ordered". It is an order from God to punish the rejectors of Religion via the
hands of the Believers.
As for 9.5 please read from 9.1.
wmangoes
wrote:
Thank you, Moataz. As usual, your posts are intelligent and
informative.
Q: do Muslims put atheists to the sword?
>Nope! After failing to convert some, Mohammed was instructed to tell the
>nonbelievers who were not people of the book that they "have their
>religion and I have mine".
If that is in the Koran or Hadith, I would really appreciate it if you
could tell me where I could look it up.
wmangoes
>> is put into place, how are Atheists to be treated?
>>
>> My guess is
>> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
>
>The same as any person who agrees a contract with State. They become
>citizens of the state, and have the right to vote, voice opinions etc.
How is this "contract with the state" negotiated? Presumably if the
country has been taken over by Muslims the Atheist is in a weak
negotiating position and may wind up with a contract that doesn't
result in his getting treated well at all.
wmangoes
>> is put into place, how are Deists (people who believe there is a god,
>> but he is not the god of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims) to be
>> treated?
>>
>> My guess is
>> -- they have a choice of conversion or death
>
>Again see above. I am quite surprised you mentioned this. Muslims have
>been in India for several hundred years, yet this never happened (with the
>bad exception).
I am not a Hindu. I am not totally familiar with what happened
between Hindus and Muslims in India, but from what I can tell it was
ugly. I have had many Hindu friends and no Indian Muslim friends. I
remember a Hindu told me once the Muslims (sometimes) did "forced
conversion" of Hindus.
My guess was also based on the extreme hostility Allah has for
unbelievers expressed in the Koran, and some of the clear statements
to fight and kill unbelievers such as
neil
> My guess is -- they have a choice of conversion or death
you guess WRONG...
have a chew on the following verses.....
Say, ‘O you disbelievers, I don’t worship what you
worship. And you don’t worship what I worship. Nor am I
worshipping what you you worship. Nor are you worshipping what I
worship. To you is your religion, and to me is my religion.’
(109:6)
If your Lord willed, certainly everyone on earth would have believed,
all of them together. So are you going to compel mankind until they
are believers? No soul can believe except with the permission of God
(10:99-100)
There is no compulsion in religion. Reason is already distinct from
misguidance (2:256)
Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful
exhortations. Debate them in a way which is better. Certainly your
Lord is the best knower of who has gone astray from His path and He is
the best knower of who is guided. If they correct you then correct
them with the like of what they corrected you. If you are patient, it
is better for patient. (16:125-126)
[Ha Mim Sajdah 41:34] Not equal is the good response and the bad
response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the
one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.
[Ha Mim Sajdah 41:35] None can attain this except those who
steadfastly persevere. None can attain this except those who are
extremely fortunate.
[Saba' 34:24] Say, "Who provides for you, from the heavens and the
earth?" Say, "GOD," and "Either we or you are guided, or have gone far
astray."
[Saba' 34:25] Say, "You are not responsible for our crimes, nor are we
responsible for what you do."
[Saba' 34:26] Say, "Our Lord will gather us all together before Him,
then He will judge between us equitably. He is the Judge, the
Omniscient."
Say, ‘The truth from your Lord.’ So whoever wills, let
them believe, and whoever wills, let them disbelieve (18:29)
Say, 'Believe in it, or don't believe' (17:107)
And of them are those who believe in it, and those who don't believe
in it. Your Lord is the best knower of the corrupt. If they reject you
then say, 'Upon me are my works and upon you are your works. You are
free from what I do and I am free from what you do. (10:40-41)
[ar-Rum 30:44] Whoever disbelieves, disbelieves to the detriment of
his own soul, while those who lead a righteous life, do so to
strengthen and develop their own souls.
Say, ‘Obey God and obey the messenger’. Then if they turn
away, then certainly only upon him is what he carries and upon you is
what you carry. If you obey him you will be guided. There is no duty
upon the messenger except the clear delivery. (24:54)
[an-Naml 27:91] I am simply commanded to worship the Lord of this town
- He has made it a safe sanctuary - and He possesses all things. I am
commanded to be a submitter.
[an-Naml 27:92] And to recite the Quran. Whoever is guided is guided
for his own good, and if they go astray, then say, "I am simply a
warner."
[an-Nur 24:54] Say, "Obey GOD, and obey the messenger." If they
refuse, then he is responsible for his obligations, and you are
responsible for your obligations. If you obey him, you will be guided.
The sole duty of the messenger is to deliver (the message).
Certainly, we have sent down upon you the book for mankind, with
purpose. So whoever is guided, then it is for the good of themselves.
And whoever is astray, certainly their going astray is only against
themselves. You are not in charge of them. (39:41)
[ash-Shura 42:6] Those who set up other lords beside Him, GOD is the
One in charge of them; you are not their advocate.
[ash-Shura 42:8] Had GOD willed, He could have made them one
community. But He redeems into His mercy whomever He wills. As for the
transgressors, they have no master, nor a helper.
[ash-Shura 42:9] Did they find other lords beside Him? GOD is the only
Lord and Master. He is the One who resurrects the dead, and He is the
Omnipotent One.
[ash-Shura 42:10] If you dispute any part of this message, the
judgment for doing this rests with GOD. Such is GOD my Lord. In Him I
trust, and to Him I submit.
[az-Zumar 39:39] Say, "O my people, do your best and I will do my
best; you will surely find out.
[az-Zumar 39:40] "(You will find out) who has incurred shameful
punishment, and has deserved an eternal retribution."
[az-Zumar 39:41] We have revealed the scripture through you for the
people, truthfully. Then, whoever is guided is guided for his own
good, and whoever goes astray goes astray to his own detriment. You
are not their advocate.
[al-Qasas 28:55] When they come across vain talk, they disregard it
and say, "We are responsible for our deeds, and you are responsible
for your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not wish to behave like the
ignorant ones."
[al-Qasas 28:56] You cannot guide the ones you love. GOD is the only
One who guides in accordance with His will, and in accordance with His
knowledge of those who deserve the guidance.
There isn’t any authority to you. He will either redeem them or
punish them (3:128)
[az-Zumar 39:46] Proclaim: "Our god, Initiator of the heavens and the
earth, Knower of all secrets and declarations, You are the only One
who judges among Your servants regarding their disputes."
Certainly, those who believe then disbelieve, then believe then
disbelieve, then are increased in disbelief, God doesn’t forgive
them and doesn’t guide them to the path. (4:137)
How much will those who are unappreciative desire that they
surrendered? Leave them to consume and enjoy and be occupied with
false hope. Soon they will come to know. (15:2-3)
[az-Zumar 39:7] If you disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone. But He
dislikes to see His servants make the wrong decision. If you decide to
be appreciative, He is pleased for you. No soul bears the sins of any
other soul. Ultimately, to your Lord is your return, then He will
inform you of everything you had done. He is fully aware of the
innermost thoughts.
[az-Zumar 39:8] When the human being is afflicted, he implores his
Lord, sincerely devoted to Him. But as soon as He blesses him, he
forgets his previous imploring, sets up idols to rank with GOD and to
divert others from His path. Say, "Enjoy your disbelief temporarily;
you have incurred the hellfire."
[al-Fatir 35:45] If GOD punished the people for their sins, He would
not leave a single creature on earth. But He respites them for a
predetermined interim. Once their interim is fulfilled, then GOD is
Seer of His servants.
[Luqman 31:23] As for those who disbelieve, do not be saddened by
their disbelief. To us is their ultimate return, then we will inform
them of everything they had done. GOD is fully aware of the innermost
thoughts.
[Luqman 31:24] We let them enjoy temporarily, then commit them to
severe retribution.
[ar-Rum 30:34] Let them be unappreciative of what we have given them.
Enjoy temporarily; you will surely find out.
[ash-Shu`ara' 26:29] He (pharaoh)said, "If you accept any god, other
than me, I will throw you in the prison."
The elders who were arrogant from his people said, ‘We will
evict you, O Shu’aib, and those who believe with you from our
town, or return you to our religion.’ He said, ‘Even if we
are loathing it?’ (7:88)
[ash-Shu`ara' 26:49] He (pharaoh) said, "Did you believe with him
before I give you permission? He must be your teacher, who taught you
magic. You will surely find out. I will sever your hands and feet on
alternate sides. I will crucify you all."
[ash-Shu`ara' 26:50] They said, "This will not change our decision; to
our Lord we will return.
[ash-Shu`ara' 26:51] "We hope that our Lord will forgive us our sins,
especially that we are the first believers."
[an-Naml 27:48] There were nine gangsters in the city who were wicked,
and never did anything good.
[an-Naml 27:49] They said, "Let us swear by GOD that we kill him and
his people, then tell his tribe, `We know nothing about their death.
We are truthful.' "
[an-Naml 27:50] They plotted and schemed, but we also plotted and
schemed, while they did not perceive.
[an-Naml 27:54] Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an
abomination, publicly, while you see?
[an-Naml 27:55] "You practice sex with the men, lustfully, instead of
the women. Indeed, you are ignorant people."
[an-Naml 27:56] The only response from his people was their saying,
"Banish Lot's family from your town; they are people who wish to be
pure."
[Ha Mim Sajdah 41:13] If they turn away, then say, "I am warning you
of a disaster like the disaster that annihilated `Aad and Thamoud."
[Ha Mim Sajdah 41:14] Their messengers went to them, as well as before
them and after them, saying, "You shall not worship except GOD." They
said, "Had our Lord willed, He could have sent angels. We are
disbelievers in what you say."
[al-Mu'min 40:41] "O my people, while I invite you to be saved, you
invite me to the hellfire.
[al-Mu'min 40:42] "You invite me to be unappreciative of GOD, and to
set up beside Him idols that I do not recognize. I am inviting you to
the Almighty, the Forgiver.
[al-Mu'min 40:43] "There is no doubt that what you invite me to do has
no basis in this world, nor in the Hereafter, that our ultimate return
is to GOD, and that the transgressors have incurred the hellfire.
[al-Mu'min 40:44] "Some day you will remember what I am telling you
now. I leave the judgment of this matter to GOD; GOD is the Seer of
all the people."
[al-Mu'min 40:34] Joseph had come to you before that with clear
revelations, but you continued to doubt his message. Then, when he
died you said, "GOD will not send any other messenger after him. (He
was the last messenger)!" GOD thus sends astray those who are
transgressors, doubtful.
[Ya Sin 36:18] They said, "We consider you bad omens. Unless you
refrain, we will surely stone you, or afflict you with painful
retribution."
[al-Mu'min 40:26] Pharaoh said, "Let me kill Moses, and let him
implore his Lord. I worry lest he corrupts your religion, or spreads
evil throughout the land."
[al-Mu'min 40:27] Moses said, "I seek refuge in my Lord and your Lord,
>from every arrogant one who does not believe in the Day of Reckoning."
[al-Mu'min 40:28] A believing man among Pharaoh's people, who was
concealing his belief, said, "How can you kill a man just for saying,
`My Lord is GOD,' and he has shown you clear proofs from your Lord? If
he is a liar, that is his problem, and if he is truthful, you benefit
>from his promises. Surely, GOD does not guide any transgressor, liar.
[ash-Shu`ara' 26:115] "I am no more than a clarifying warner."
[ash-Shu`ara' 26:116] They said, "Unless you refrain, O Noah, you will
be stoned."
He said, ‘O my people, don’t you perceive that I have
clear proof from my Lord, and mercy has been given to me from Him? It
is obscure to you. Are we going to compel you to it while you are
loathing it?’ (11:28)
[al-Anbiya' 21:68] They said, "Burn him and support your gods, if this
is what you decide to do."
[al-Anbiya' 21:69] We said, "O fire, be cool and safe for Abraham."
[al-Anbiya' 21:70] Thus, they schemed against him, but we made them
the losers.
We have sent down to you in the book that, when you hear verses of God
rejected and being made a mockery of, then don’t sit with them
until they take up a conversation other than that (4:140)
We certainly know that your breast is straightened by what they say.
But sing the praises of your Lord and be of the prostrators. And serve
your Lord until the certainty of death comes to you. (15:97-98)
And be patient regarding what they say and leave them with noble
dignity. Leave Me to deal with the comfortable deniers. Their respite
is for a short while. (73:10-11)
And don’t curse those whom they serve to the exclusion of God
lest they curse God wrongfully without knowledge. Thus we have
beautified for each people their works, then to their Lord is their
return and He will inform them of what they did. (6:108)
[al-Anbiya' 21:108] Proclaim, "I have been given divine inspiration
that your god is one god. Will you then submit?"
[al-Anbiya' 21:109] If they turn away, then say, "I have warned you
sufficiently, and I have no idea how soon or late (the retribution)
will come to you.
[al-Anbiya' 21:110] "He is fully aware of your public utterances, and
He is fully aware of everything you conceal.
[al-Anbiya' 21:111] "For all that I know, this world is a test for
you, and a temporary enjoyment."
[al-Anbiya' 21:112] Say, "My Lord, Your judgment is the absolute
justice. Our Lord is the Most Gracious; only His help is sought in the
face of your claims."
[al-Hajj 22:19] Here are two parties feuding with regard to their
Lord. As for those who disbelieve, they will have clothes of fire
tailored for them. Hellish liquid will be poured on top of their
heads.
[al-Hajj 22:20] It will cause their insides to melt, as well as their
skins.
[al-Hajj 22:21] They will be confined in iron pots.
[al-Hajj 22:22] Whenever they try to exit such misery, they will be
forced back in: "Taste the agony of burning."
[al-Hajj 22:67] For each congregation, we have decreed a set of rites
that they must uphold. Therefore, they should not dispute with you.
You shall continue to invite everyone to your Lord. Most assuredly,
you are on the right path.
[al-Hajj 22:68] If they argue with you, then say, "GOD is fully aware
of everything you do."
[al-Hajj 22:69] GOD will judge among you on the Day of Resurrection
regarding all your disputes.
[al-Mu'min 40:14] Therefore, you shall devote your worship absolutely
to GOD ALONE, even if the disbelievers dislike it.
[al-Mu'minun 23:52] Such is your congregation - one congregation -
and I am your Lord; you shall reverence Me.
[al-Mu'minun 23:53] But they tore themselves into disputing factions;
each party happy with what they have.
[al-Mu'minun 23:54] Therefore, just leave them in their confusion, for
awhile.
[al-Mu'minun 23:55] Do they think that, since we provided them with
money and children,
[al-Mu'minun 23:56] we must be showering them with blessings? Indeed,
they have no idea.
[al-Mu'minun 23:95] To show you (the retribution) we have reserved for
them is something we can easily do.
[al-Mu'minun 23:96] Therefore, counter their evil works with goodness;
we are fully aware of their claims.
[al-Qasas 28:50] If they fail to respond to you, then know that they
follow only their own opinions. Who is farther astray than those who
follow their own opinions, without guidance from GOD? GOD does not
guide such wicked people.
[al-Mu'min 40:75] This is because you used to rejoice in false
doctrines on earth, and you used to promote them.
[al-Mu'min 40:76] Enter the gates of Gehenna, wherein you abide
forever. What a miserable destiny for the arrogant ones.
[al-Mu'min 40:77] You shall be patient, for GOD's promise is truth.
Whether we show you some of (the retribution) we have promised for
them, or terminate your life before that, they will be returned to us.
[al-Mu'min 40:66] Say, "I have been enjoined from worshipping the
idols you worship beside GOD, when the clear revelations came to me
>from my Lord. I was commanded to submit to the Lord of the universe."
[al-Mu'min 40:55] Therefore, be patient, for GOD's promise is true,
and ask forgiveness for your sin, and glorify and praise your Lord
night and day.
[al-Mu'min 40:56] Surely, those who argue against GOD's revelations
without proof are exposing the arrogance that is hidden inside their
chests, and they are not even aware of it. Therefore, seek refuge in
GOD; He is the Hearer, the Seer.
[ar-Rum 30:52] You cannot make the dead, nor the deaf, hear the call,
once they turn away.
[ar-Rum 30:53] Nor can you guide the blind out of their straying. You
can only be heard by those who believe in our revelations, and decide
to become submitters.
[ar-Rum 30:29] Indeed, the transgressors have followed their own
opinions, without knowledge. Who then can guide those who have been
sent astray by GOD? No one can ever help them.
[ar-Rum 30:59] GOD thus seals the hearts of those who do not know.
[ar-Rum 30:60] Therefore, you shall steadfastly persevere - for GOD's
promise is the truth - and do not be intimidated by those who have not
attained certainty.
[ash-Shura 42:40] Although the just requital for an injustice is an
equivalent retribution, those who pardon and maintain righteousness
are rewarded by GOD. He does not love the unjust.
[ash-Shura 42:41] Certainly, those who stand up for their rights, when
injustice befalls them, are not committing any error.
[ash-Shura 42:42] The wrong ones are those who treat the people
unjustly, and resort to aggression without provocation. These have
incurred a painful retribution.
[ash-Shura 42:43] Resorting to patience and forgiveness reflects a
true strength of character.
[Ya Sin 36:10] It is the same whether you warn them or not, they
cannot believe
And if you call them to guidance they don’t listen. You see them
looking towards you while they aren’t enlightened. Keep to
pardoning and commanding with fairness and turn away from the
ignorant. (7:198-199)
[ash-Shura 42:48] If they turn away, we did not send you as their
guardian. Your sole mission is delivering the message. When we shower
the human beings with mercy, they become proud, and when adversity
afflicts them, as a consequence of their own deeds, the human beings
turn into disbelievers.
[Sad 38:17] Be patient in the face of their utterances, and remember
our servant David, the resourceful; he was obedient.
The servants of the Almighty are those who walk the earth gently, and
when the ignorant address them they say, ‘Peace.’ (25:63)
[al-Ahzab 33:48] Do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites,
disregard their insults, and put your trust in GOD; GOD suffices as an
advocate.
[as-Saffat 37:174] So disregard them for awhile.
[as-Saffat 37:175] Watch them; they too will watch.
[as-Saffat 37:178] Disregard them for awhile.
[as-Saffat 37:179] Watch them; they too will watch.
[as-Sajdah 32:30] Therefore, disregard them and wait, they too are
waiting.
[al-Furqan 25:72] They do not bear false witness. When they encounter
vain talk, they ignore it.
We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. But if they strive
for you to partner with Me what you have no knowledge of, then
don’t obey them. To Me is your ultimate return, then I will
inform you of everything you had done. (29:8)
And if they strive for you to partner with Me that which you have no
knowledge of, then don’t obey them, and treat them with kindness
(31:15)
[al-Fatir 35:8] Note the one whose evil work is adorned in his eyes,
until he thinks that it is righteous. GOD thus sends astray whoever
wills (to go astray), and He guides whoever wills (to be guided).
Therefore, do not grieve over them. GOD is fully aware of everything
they do.
[Ya Sin 36:76] Therefore, do not be saddened by their utterances. We
are fully aware of everything they conceal and everything they
declare.
[Sad 38:79] He said, "My Lord, respite me till the Day of
Resurrection."
[Sad 38:80] He said, "You are respited.
[Sad 38:81] "Until the appointed day."
[Sad 38:82] He said, "I swear by Your majesty, that I will send them
all astray.
[Sad 38:83] "Except Your worshipers who are devoted absolutely to You
alone."
[Sad 38:84] He said, "This is the truth, and the truth is all that I
utter.
[Sad 38:85] "I will fill Hell with you and all those who follow you."
[Sad 38:86] Say, "I do not ask you for any wage, and I am not an
impostor.
[Sad 38:87] "This is a reminder for the world.
[Sad 38:88] "And you will certainly find out in awhile."
[ash-Shura 42:13] He decreed for you the same religion decreed for
Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham,
Moses, and Jesus: "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not
divide it." The idol worshipers will greatly resent what you invite
them to do. GOD redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to
Himself only those who totally submit.
G. Waleed Kavalec
news:a8gjao$oo1$1...@samba.rahul.net...
> >What have you heard or read that leads you to this guess? Your guess is
> >wrong. People are free to believe as they wish.
> >
>
> What about the Hadith that says, "Kill those who change their religion."
>
Hadithists that elevate such nonsense to greater authority that the Qur'an
are putting their man-made texts above God. This is not Islam regardless of
what they call themselves.
--
G. Waleed Kavalec
-------------------
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
Moataz Emam
I do not wish to go into the animosity between Indian Muslims and
Hindus, since this has always been a political thing and I am not
Indian. Let me just remark that if the Muslim rulers of a certain region
of India with Hindu population truely imposed such restrictions, then
they are at fault with Islam itself.
--
Moataz H. Emam
Moataz Emam
> What about the Hadith that says, "Kill those who change their religion."
Firstly: The Quran is a much more powerful authority on Islam than
Hadith. If a Hadith contradicts the Quran, then the Hadith is wrong.
When quoting a Hadith you must quote its original source and basically
prove its historical accuracy (this is usually done by mentioning the
source). As an example, there is a famous Hadith that says: "Tanakahoh,
tanasaloh fa enny mobahen bekom wa be awladekom yawma al keyamma" [Marry
and reproduce because I will take pride in you and your children
(meaning their numbers) on doom's day]. This Hadith is taken as an
Islamic refusal of birth control. But the fact is, this Hadith does NOT
exist in any of the Hadith books, even the non-correct (not Sahih) ones.
No one can say where it comes from. Still, many Muslims know it by heart
!!
Secondly: There is an edict in Islam that people who leave Islam should
be killed. BUT, two things: One is that this edict was time dependent.
In early Islam the Muslims had to fight non Muslims, BECAUSE the
non-Muslims were trying to convert the Muslims back to paganism. So,
converting back FROM Islam was tantamount to High Treason : Deserting
your army during the time of war and that has always been punishable by
death. Two: It is very difficult to prove that any Muslim has converted
out of Islam, unless He/She announces it clearly or just goes ahead and
gets baptized or something similar.
--
Moataz H. Emam
Moataz Emam
> How do you reconcile this with
>
> Hadith 4:52:260 ... the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim)
> discards his religion, kill him.' "
I discussed this in my other post in this thread.
> Koran [9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who
> are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah
> is with those who guard (against evil).
Again this is not a general edict. It is specific to the pagans of Mecca
who were right next door and persecuted the original Muslims. See the
Quranic commentary:
http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/quran.htm
> Koran 9.5 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the
> idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege
> them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and
> keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;
> surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Firstly, read the following verse 9.6. Secondly, the same source above
gives the following commentary:
5a. The clear exception of the last verse shows that by the idolaters
here are meant,
not all idolaters or polytheists wherever they may be found in the
world, not even all
idolaters of Arabia, but only those idolatrous tribes of Arabia
assembled at the pilgrimage
who had .first made agreements with the Muslims and then violated them.
5b. The exception here has given rise to much misconception. It is
thought that it
offers to the disbelievers the alternative of the sword or the Quran.
Nothing is farther
>from the truth. The injunction contained in the first part of the verse
establishes the fact
that the whole verse relates to certain idolatrous Arab tribes who had
broken their
engagements with the Muslims, and who had now been apprised of a similar
repudiation
by the Muslims. The order to kill them and to make them prisoners and to
besiege them
and ambush them amounts clearly to an order to fight against them, as it
is in war only
that all these things are made lawful. They had so often broken their
word that they
could no more be trusted. Yet, if they joined the brotherhood of Islam,
and there was an
absolute change in their condition, the punishment which they otherwise
deserved could
be remitted. It was a case of forgiving a guilty people who had
repented. It should also
be noted that a mere confession of the faith is not required; what is
required is
an absolute change, so that the old crimes are all abandoned. Therefore,
along with the
confession of the faith, it is required that they should keep up prayer
and pay the poor-rate.
The subject is further clarified in the next verse and the following
section.
--
Moataz H. Emam
Saqib Virk
>
> What about the Hadith that says, "Kill those who change their religion."
SV
Such a hadith would contradict the Quran, no?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9s1rp0%245e5%241%40samba.rahul.net
--
Peace,
Saqib Virk
Saqib Virk
>
> The reason I am asking this question is I am not sure. The prevailing
> message I get from reading the Koran previously, is that unbelievers
> will be punished by Allah and so there is no need for men to do it
> during life. [18.29] which you have provided, is interesting in that
> it actually says this.
SV
Parents tell their children to study hard so that the children will
not suffer later in life. Parents tell their children to eat their
vegetables so that the children will be healthy. God also guides us
and those who don't set after the goals for which they have been
created will come to regret it.
> Hindus have told me Muslims sometimes have shown a fondness
> for "conversion by force" in India,
SV
If conversion by force were an Islamic principle, Hinduism would have
ceased to exist in most of India.
> and another westerner who had read the
> Koran had the impression the Koran says that when a country is
> conquered by Islam, people who are neither Muslims nor people of the
> book were all to be put to the sword.
SV
That westerner apparently never read the Quran and was merely
repeating mindless propaganda... not to say that some Muslims don't
also repeat this nonesense.
--
Peace,
Saqib Virk
Saqib Virk
SV
That website is run by an anti-Islam fanatic. Little even remotely
resembling truth can be found there. Anybody with access to the
internet can put up a website and so you need to be a little more
discriminating with your research.
--
Peace,
Saqib Virk
Saqib Virk
>
>>"It is the truth from your Lord; therefore let him who will believe
and let
>>him who will disbelieve." [Quran 18:29]
>
> How do you reconcile this with
>
> Hadith 4:52:260 ... the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim)
> discards his religion, kill him.' "
SV
There is no need to reconcile the Quran with a hadith. The hadith must
not contradict the clear injunctions of the Quran.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9s1rp0%245e5%241%40samba.rahul.net
> Koran [9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who
> are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah
> is with those who guard (against evil).
>
> I checked the context on this one and it does not provide any
> establishment of provocation on the part of the unbeliever, other than
> just being an unbeliever.
> Koran 9.5 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the
> idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege
> them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and
> keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;
> surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SV
That verse, 9:5, seems to be the favorite verse of many when they
attempt to make a case against Islam. I think it would be correct to
assume you have not read the surrounding verses in an attempt to
understand the passage. It would be helpful if I discuss the general
principles of war in the Quran before commenting on the verse.
War has always been and apparently will always be a part of mans life
and as such the Quran contains a number of injunctions concerning it.
The Muslims are not allowed to start hostilities but are allowed to
fight back when hostilities are initiated by others.
"Permission to take up arms is given to those against whom war is
made, because they have been wronged and God, indeed, has power to
help them. - Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly,
only because they said, 'Our Lord is God.' And if God had not repelled
some people by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues
and mosques, wherein the name of God is oft remembered, would surely
have been destroyed. And God will, surely, help him who helps HIM. God
is, indeed, Powerful, Mighty - Those who, if WE establish them in the
earth, will observe Prayer and pay the Zakat and enjoin good and
forbid evil. And with God rests the final issue of all affairs."
[Quran 22:39-41]
Permission to fight is given to the victims of aggression.The cruel
are repelled with the help of the righteous to establish freedom of
faith and worship. God helps those who help to establish freedom and
worship. It follows that fighting is permitted when a people have
suffered from aggression, when the aggressor has no cause for
aggression and he seeks to interfere with the religion of his victim.
The passage also states the duty of the victim, if and when he attains
power, is to establish religious freedom and to protect all religions
and religious places. This teaching is clear and precise. The Muslims
took to war because they were forced. Aggressive wars are forbidden by
Islam. The Muslims are promised power but are warned that this power
must be used to help the poor and for the promotion of peace.
"And fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but
do not transgress. Surely, God loves not the transgressors. And slay
these transgressors wherever you meet them and drive them out from
where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than slaying.
And fight them not in and near the Sacred Mosque until they fight you
therein. But if they fight you, then fight them. Such is the requital
for the disbelievers. But if they desist, then surely, God is Most
Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until there is no persecution, and
religion is professed only for God. But if they desist, then remember
that no hostility is allowed except against the wrongdoers." [Quran
2:190-193]
Aggression against a religion must be met with active resistance
because such persecution is worse than bloodshed. If an enemy attacks
the Muslims are free to reply but if the enemy desists the Muslims
must also desist. Fighting will last as long as religious persecution
lasts and freedom is not established.
"Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past will
be forgiven them; and if they return to their misdeeds, then verily
the example of the former peoples has already gone before them. And
fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly to
God. But if they desist, then surely God is Watchful of what they do.
And if they turn back, then know that God is your Protector - an
excellent protector and an excellent Helper!" [Quran 8:38-40]
"And make ready for them who fight you whatever you can of armed force
and of mounted pickets at the frontier, whereby you may frighten the
enemy of God and your enemy and others besides them whom you know not,
but God knows them. And whatever you spend in the way of God, it shall
be paid back to you in full and you shall not be wronged. And if they
incline towards peace, incline thou also towards it, and put thy
trust in God. Surely, it is HE Who is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. And if
they seek to deceive thee, then surely God is sufficient for thee. HE
it is Who has strengthened thee with HIS help and with the believers;"
[Quran 8:60-61]
If an offer of peace is made by the aggressors the Muslims are to
accept it even at the risk of being deceived. They are to put their
trust in God. Deception will not help against Muslims who are relying
on the help of God. Their victories are not due to themselves but to
God. An offer of peace can not be rejected even though it may only be
a trick with which the enemy hopes to gain time or some other
advantage.
Now let me turn to the verse(s) in question;
"And when the forbidden months have passed, slay the idolaters
wherever you find them and take them captive, and beleaguer them, and
lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and
observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely,
God is Most Forgiving, Merciful." [Quran 9:5]
When read in context and with an understanding of the Islamic rules
for fighting as outlined above there is no cause for non-Muslims to
complain. The verse refers to a period of time when the Muslims had
gained the upper hand over their persecutors. The persecutors were
given a 4 month period to see for themselves that their plans had been
frustrated and Islam was now dominant. These verses come just before
9:5 quoted above.
"So go about in the land for four months, and know that you cannot
frustrate the plan of God and that God will humiliate the
disbelievers. And this is a proclamation from God and HIS Messenger to
the people on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage, that God is clear of
idolaters, and so is HIS Messenger. So if you repent, it will be
better for you; but if you turn away, then know that you cannot
frustrate the plan of God. And give tidings of a painful punishment to
those who disbelieve, Except those of the disbelievers with whom you
have entered into a treaty and who have not subsequently failed you in
anything nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill to these the treaty
you have made with them till their term. Surely ALLAH loves those that
are righteous." [Quran 9:2-4]
The reference in 9:5 is to those who persecuted and attempted to
destroy the fledgling Muslim community and continued to do so. They
were granted respite for four months to travel the land in safety to
see whether or not Islam had triumphed and whether the word of God was
true. At the end of this period war was to be resumed against the
idolatrous Arabs, except of course those with whom there were
treaties. It should be noted that this war did not extend to any
disbelievers without discrimination, but only those that were avowed
enemies of Islam, had began hostilities, broken their oaths and
plotted to expel
Muhammad(pbuh) from the city, as is outlined by 9:8-13 part of which
is quoted below:
"And if they break their oaths after their covenant, and attack your
religion, then fight these leaders of disbelief -- surely, they have
no regard for their oaths, - that they may desist. Will you not fight
a people who have broken their oaths, and who plotted to turn out the
Messenger, and they were the first to commence hostilities against
you? Do you fear them? Nay, God is most worthy that you should fear
HIM, if you are believers." [Quran 9:12-13]
Even then if any of those who had for so long hounded and persecuted
the Muslim community asked for asylum it would be granted so they
could hear the message of Islam and they were free to accept or leave,
as is outlined in 9:6.
"And if anyone of the idolaters seeks protection of thee, grant him
protection so that he may hear the word of God; then convey him to his
place of security. That is because they are a people who have no
knowledge." [Quran 9:6]
--
Wasalaam,
Saqib Virk
thebit
> How is this "contract with the state" negotiated?
Between two parties, like most negoetiations.
> Presumably
Which means you want the following to be true.
> and may wind up with a contract that doesn't
> result in his getting treated well at all.
A Muslim is told to stand for justice, regardless of who is involved.
Moataz Emam
> If that is in the Koran or Hadith, I would really appreciate it if you
> could tell me where I could look it up.
It's Quranic (109:6). Read neil's response to you in this thread. He/She
provide the same quote with reference to the Quran. More quotes are also
provided in his/her post.
--
Moataz H. Emam
thebit
> I am not a Hindu. I am not totally familiar with what happened
> between Hindus and Muslims in India, but from what I can tell it was
> ugly.
There were periods when Hindus were persecuted, something I have not denied.
This is not something which should be acceptable. But there were more or less
larger periods of calm and stability. Hindus served in the courts of some of
the Mughals and even married some of the Mughal kings.
> I have had many Hindu friends and no Indian Muslim friends. I
> remember a Hindu told me once the Muslims (sometimes) did "forced
> conversion" of Hindus.
I never said no forced conversions happened, but these acts are not condoned by
Islam. If you have no Indian Muslim friends and do not know much about history
in India why are you making such claims?
> [9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near
> to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with
> those who guard (against evil).
Plucking a verse out of context is not a wise decision. The order to fight has
been discussed in several posts. I suggest you look them up.
The Sanity Inspector
> I have a number of questions about how Muslim tolerance of other
> religions and how it works. I would appreciate your input,
> particularly if you can back it up with quotes from scripture from the
> Koran or hadith, with numbers so I can verify it.
Muslim societies historically treated Christians and Jews as firmly
subservient to Muslims--similar to Jim Crow laws in the U. S. Actual
conditions ranged from tolerance to cruelty, but equality was never an
option. But note that many Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Empire
had positions of importance as chamberlains, military engineers, and
such, living better than Muslim commoners.
> Question 1: Are Hindus now considered "people of the book"?
Hindus are idolators of the rankest sort in Muslim eyes. People who
worship Christ have some standing in Islam; people who worship rhesus
monkeys do not. The Muslim onslaught into India was quite possibly
the bloodiest conquest in pre-industrial history. Here is a typical
observation by an objective Western historian:
"In other parts of Asia and Europe, the conquered nations quickly
opted for conversion to Islam rather than death. But in India, because
of the staunch resistance of the 4000 year old Hindu faith, the Muslim
conquests were for the Hindus a pure struggle between life and death.
Entire cities were burnt down and their populations massacred. Each
successive campaign brought hundreds of thousands of victims and
similar numbers were deported as slaves. Every new invader made often
literally his hill of Hindu skulls. Thus the conquest of Afghanistan
in the year 1000, was followed by the annihilation of the entire Hindu
population there; indeed, the region is still called Hindu Kush,
'Hindu slaughter'. The Bahmani sultans in central India, made it a
rule to kill 100,000 Hindus a year. In 1399, Teimur killed 100,000
Hindus IN A SINGLE DAY, and many more on other occasions. Koenraad
Elst quotes Professor K.S. Lal's "Growth of Muslim population in
India", who writes that according to his calculations, the Hindu
population decreased by 8O MILLION between the year 1000 and 1525.
...We will never be able to assess the immense physical harm done to
India by the Muslim invasions. Even more difficult is to estimate the
moral and the spiritual damage done to Hindu India."
- from _Negationism and the Muslim Conquests_ by Francois Gautier
That said, it should be noted that India's greatest emperor, Akbar the
Great, was a Muslim, but not a believing one.
> Question 2: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law is
> put into place, how are "people of the book" to be treated?
> My guess is:
There's no need to guess, as there is a long historical record. The
Islamic conquerors originally gave their new subjects the choice of
accepting Islam, paying tribute, or death. Most commoners chose Islam
and, once they were broke, so did most of the upper crust. The
holdouts were relegated to second-class citizenship. Their fortunes
were purely arbitrary, depending on the degree of tolerance encouraged
by the rulers in any given time or place. Even today, for example,
Christian enclaves in Egypt are subject to the fury of rioting Muslim
bigots.
"It is a religious obligation of Muslims to humiliate and degrade
non-Muslims. When Jews used to live in Muslim lands, they could not
own property. If they lived in villages they were tenant farmers or
serfs. If they lived in cities, they had to pay a special tax to
demonstrate their subservience, which involved their being hit at the
time they paid it. They could not serve in the army, they could not
carry weapons, they had to step into the gutter when a Muslim passed,
they could not ride a horse, they had to wear special clothes that
identified them to Muslims so that Muslims would not be
"contaminated". Marrying a Muslim woman was death."
-- Samuel Fistel
[...]
> Question 5: If Muslims take possession of a country and Islamic law
> is put into place, how are Deists (people who believe there is a god,
> but he is not the god of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims) to be
> treated?
Any deviance from revealed truth as found in the Koran is a sin beyond
abomination. If people can be slaughtered for worshipping Krishna,
how much mercy do you think followers of Voltaire and Jefferson will
get?
--
bruce
The dignified don't even enter in the game.
-- The Jam
wmangoes
> and worship in them. Muslims are required to respect
> the places of worship and not demolish them.
I have heard that a lot of the problems between Islam and Hinduism in
India were caused by Muslims building mosques on favorite Hindu sacred
sites. Did this not happen? Also, can you give me a scripture quote,
preferably from the Koran or Hadith, to support your assertion?
Moataz Emam
> sites. Did this not happen? Also, can you give me a scripture quote,
> preferably from the Koran or Hadith, to support your assertion?
My friend. I think there has been enough posts in this thread which you
started with quotations and discussions to satisfy your needs. If you
are not convinced yet, you will never be. What, exactly, is your point
now?
--
Moataz H. Emam
chollanam...@mindspring.com
with usenet this thought:
>How is this "contract with the state" negotiated? Presumably if the
>country has been taken over by Muslims the Atheist is in a weak
>negotiating position and may wind up with a contract that doesn't
>result in his getting treated well at all.
Look at Turkey for an example of a successful transition to a secular
state, and look at Algeria for an example of an unsuccessful one.
chollanam...@mindspring.com
shared with usenet this thought:
>< Snip >
Islam is what Islam does. Would you say that the Arabic golden age of
science has nothing to do with Islam? There's at least as much
cut-and-paste scriptural authority in the Koran for killing
unbelievers as there is for studying the natural world.
Moataz Emam
> There's at least as much
> cut-and-paste scriptural authority in the Koran for killing
> unbelievers as there is for studying the natural world.
Oh really? Quote some! We have discussed the so called "Killing the
disbelievers" verses in this NG many times before. Go read the archives.
There are no such things.
--
Moataz H. Emam
wmangoes
>> remember a Hindu told me once the Muslims (sometimes) did "forced
>> conversion" of Hindus.
>
>I never said no forced conversions happened, but these acts are not condoned by
>Islam. If you have no Indian Muslim friends and do not know much about history
>in India why are you making such claims?
My strategy is I am confessing my ignorance and inviting you to
correct me. I am looking forward to this as an opportunity to hear
the Muslim side of the story.
hasan schiers
sch...@netins.net
or use amsat.org or arrl.net remailer
<chollanam...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a8s5rj$ibs$1...@samba.rahul.net...
> On 5 Apr 2002 14:30:53 GMT, Moataz Emam <em...@physics.umass.edu>
> shared with usenet this thought:
>
> >< Snip >
> >
> >I do not wish to go into the animosity between Indian Muslims and
> >Hindus, since this has always been a political thing and I am not
> >Indian. Let me just remark that if the Muslim rulers of a certain region
> >of India with Hindu population truely imposed such restrictions, then
> >they are at fault with Islam itself.
>
> Islam is what Islam does.
Only if you're Forest Gump. Islam is what it IS, not what crazy people make
of it (on either side). The atrocities of the Crusades are well documented,
but I don't think they represent the tenets of Christianity, do you?
Would you say that the Arabic golden age of
> science has nothing to do with Islam? There's at least as much
> cut-and-paste scriptural authority in the Koran for killing
> unbelievers as there is for studying the natural world.
And therein lies the rub. Taking things "cut and paste" completely out of
context, anyone can make the Qur'an or the Bible sound like murderer's row.
There is no scriptural authority to take verses out of the context in which
they were revealed. That is called "license" and results in dispicable
distortions if not outright deliberate misrepresentations.
Islam is profoundly tolerant. Those who call themselves Muslims may not be.
This can be cultural, a personal defect, or agenda driven, none of which
accurately reflect the teachings of Islam, but rather the imperfections of
people.
Reading the Qur'an is NOT an easy thing to do. Many years ago, the first
time I read it, it scared the bejeebers out of me. (Which was entirely
predictable, even predicted in the Qur'an itself <g>). Now when I read it,
it makes me weep from it's beauty, majesty and Truth. What changed?
Certainly not the Qur'an...I'm reading the same translation I started with.
At least two kinds of context are important when reading sections that
appear "harsh" or "aggressive", and neither of them are available to the
"casual" reader.
1. A particular verse may be referring to events that are contemporary to
the revelation, i.e, at the time of an immediate threat, plot or ongoing
war, violation of a treaty, etc.
2. A particular verse may refer to a group of people AT THE TIME, not
universally.
The Qur'an must be considered in context and as a whole. Any verse that
seemed
"questionable" to me at one time, became clear when I read more about what
was going on at the time, or read all the verses that related to that topic
throughout the entire Qur'an. When considering the Qur'an as a whole, one
must look at themes that are repeated and the "lesson(s)" to be adduced from
those themes.
It isn't a trivial matter to read the Qur'an in either Arabic or
translation. It is a full-fledged endeavor of the heart....and the intellect
is all that helpful.
Superficially, it can be quite confusing. Taken out of context it may appear
outrageous, but once understood in context and thematically it is NOT at all
what it appears on the surface. To get the real "meaning" of what is there
requires more than the intellectual tools noted above. The Qur'an has
textured layers and meanings, and is opened out to great depth to "those of
understanding", whom I refer to as those with "wisdom". For the common
person (like me, for example), context and theme are very helpful. If,
insh'allah, I ever develop any wisdom, there is much, much more there than
what appears on the surface.
It is said if you took all of the trees in the world to make pens, and all
of the oceans in the world to make ink, one could not begin to approach,
much less exhaust the meanings and wisdom contained in Qur'an. Each person
gets from the Qur'an what they are capable of. It is a bit like a mirror.
Haters see hatred. Bigots see bigotry. Racists see racism. Religious
fanatics see religious fanaticism. A wise person sees the Truth at whatever
level they are capable of. In many ways, the Qur'an is a diagnostic tool for
the reader. One's reaction to the Book is a measure of the reader, not the
Author.
The fault is not with Islam. The fault is not with the Qur'an. The faults
are in us. We too often represent it poorly, and on the other hand, Islam's
critics suffer from profound ignorance, if not outright arrogance. Better
they should criticise US and leave the Book of Allah (swt). It would be
better for both the believers and the critics, if they but understood what
they were doing.
A hadith I read has always stuck with me:
"Do whatever you like, if you have no shame."
My Shaikh, Muhammad Raheem Bawa Muhaiyaddeen (ral.) once said to me,
"Talking about wisdom and the qualities of God, without actually having
them, is like the braying of a jackass."
Lastly, no matter what one's persuasion, we would all would do well to "fear
God" in our actions, thoughts, feelings and statements. Before condemning
scripture, one should remember the Author. Our ignorance, especially when
coupled with arrogance, is not going to be much of an excuse for the
unfortunate things we say to each other or about the revelations. I fear for
the day when I am called to account, may Allah (swt.) forgive and protect
me. May He forgive and protect us all. May He guide us to the Straight Path
and forgive our mistakes commited knowingly and unknowingly. May Allah (swt)
be sufficient for all of us. Amin.
Good advice, that.
--
hasan schiers
wmangoes
wrote:
>wmangoes wrote:
I am far from convinced, at this point, that Islam is true.
My main purpose, in the wake of 9/11, is to learn enough about Islam
to determine how dangerous it is. How tolerant have Muslims been in
practice, and how tolerant is Islam in scripture are central issues to
me.
I am approaching Islam with a curiosity created by fear.
Since I am not a firm Christian, and many of my friends are complete
unbelievers, I am also especially interested in Muslim tolerance
toward people who are not followers of the book.
I am trying hard to be fair in my investigation, and give credit where
it is due. I have found considerable tolerance in the Koran, but also
considerable intolerance. As far as I am concerned, the document is
inconsistent on the matter. Often it says man is not to compel the
disbeliever, God will punish him, but then there are quotes like
[47.4] advocating violence against unbelievers just because
unbelievers are bad [47.3]. [9.29], [25.52], [66.9].
[9.4-5] is very bad, first saying keep your treaties with unbelievers,
then when the treaties expire, "then slay the idolaters wherever you
find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for
them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay
the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;"
I think a lot of the problem is that statements where Allah expresses
his hostility toward unbelievers are extremely common, so common that
it is easy for an overzealous Muslim to think he is doing Allah's work
if he punishes the unbelievers, while there is a very clear and
redundant message the believer is to be patient and not do such acts.
In general, there is a lot of warfare in both the Old Testament and
the Koran. There is very little warfare in the New Testament, none
that I know of outside of Revelations. The believers during the time
in which the NT was written were a minority in the Roman Empire, not
capable of conquering anybody, some of the scriptures were written
>from jail cells, so they embraced peaceful tactics. As far as I can
tell, the whole peaceful message of the NT is entirely absent from the
Koran. The Koran makes up for this to some extent with specific
messages about religious tolerance that are not clearly made in the
NT.
thebit
> I am far from convinced, at this point, that Islam is true.
If you stop believing that the law of gravity will you back down if you jump
>from a ten storey building, it has little effect on the validity of the law.
> My main purpose, in the wake of 9/11, is to learn enough about Islam
> to determine how dangerous it is.
This shows your mentality. "9/11" had little, if anything to do with Islam.
> I am approaching Islam with a curiosity created by fear.
Fear of whom? A fear of what? It is more likely your misconceptions have been
generated by the myopic jingoism created by the press. Witness the long
articles trying to explain Islam to the masses. Try flicking through
something like the Daily Telegraph where we were told that "there are masses
of them [Muslims] out there" waiting to do more [like "9/11"].
> Since I am not a firm Christian, and many of my friends are complete
> unbelievers, I am also especially interested in Muslim tolerance
> toward people who are not followers of the book.
They ought to treat them as the same they would treat anyone: with fairness,
justice and wisdom. Admittedly this is sorely lacking among a lot of us
today.
> Often it says man is not to compel the
> disbeliever, God will punish him, but then there are quotes like
> [47.4] advocating violence against unbelievers just because
> unbelievers are bad [47.3]. [9.29], [25.52], [66.9].
You have taken some of these verses and made them universally applicable.
Only a Messenger is ordained from God to fight Rejectors ("Kuffar"). That is
because his apperance among a people marks God's Final Justice upon them. The
usual rule of people being judged on the Final Day is suspended for them, and
they will be punished if they do not accept. A Messenger comes with signs
which are so apparent that it becomes clear he is from God. That is why the
rejection is punished within this world. On the other hand, the rewards for
them are very high. They are granted ascendacy in the lands and guaranteed
eternal bliss.
Thereafter, no other person can claim to bring with him "signs of which their
are no rejection" ("Imaam al-Hujjah"). Muslims can now only fight to remove
injustice and oppression.
> [9.4-5] is very bad, first saying keep your treaties with unbelievers,
> then when the treaties expire, "then slay the idolaters wherever you
> find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for
> them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay
> the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;"
Please read in context (something you have not been doing). Surah Taubah (9)
is directed at the Polytheists of Makkah. Verse 14 makes it clear that the
victory God will grant the Believers is actually a punishment of the
Rejectors. Another verse says, "Drive them from where they drove you" (2:
191). Who are the "them", and "you"? I haven't been driven from my home by a
polytheist, nor am I near a "Sacred Mosque".
Please read this post:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=a7d226%24m7t%241%40samba.rahul.net
> I think a lot of the problem is that statements where Allah expresses
> his hostility toward unbelievers are extremely common, so common that
> it is easy for an overzealous Muslim to think he is doing Allah's work
What is misunderstood is to what extent a common Muslim knows the nature of
the Rejection of a "Disbeliever". When a Messenger is among a people, the
disbelievers in him are well-known. That is because he has brought with some
Revelatory signs which make it clear he is from God, and a rejection exposes
ones arrogance. One who rejects a Messenger is truely a "kaafir". He is
punished in this world and his destination has been guarenteed in the next
world.
Muslims make the mistake of thinking themselves as the judge and jury and
very often executioner.
> In general, there is a lot of warfare in both the Old Testament and
> the Koran.
There is "a lot of warfare" in the Qur'an because, unlike other Messenger
like Noah or Lot (pbut) Muhammad (p) and his followers gained a rule over a
piece of land. Once this was achieved the Rejectors were punished through the
hands of the believers, unlike the Rejectors of the other Messengers. The
same applies to the OT. Moses (p) was also a Messenger. A Rejection in him by
Pharoah meant he was destroyed by God, Himself. Thereafter, when an organised
collective was established by the Israelites, the Law to fight was revealed.
Moses (p) was commanded to fight Rejectors because he was a Messenger.
> There is very little warfare in the New Testament, none
> that I know of outside of Revelations.
Jesus (p) had nothing to say about warfare. He accepted the Old Testament.
Jesus (p) too was a Messenger. A rejection in Jesus (p) entailed a same
punishment as well. But since the Rejectors in his case were believers in the
One God, they made "politically" subservient in the land. History shows us
this.
> As far as I can
> tell, the whole peaceful message of the NT is entirely absent from the
> Koran.
This is usually nonsense peddled by people who reject the OT, something which
Jesus (p) never did.
>The Koran makes up for this to some extent with specific
> messages about religious tolerance that are not clearly made in the
> NT.
The Qur'an is a revelation from God to a Messenger. His task, in his personal
capacity, was to bring God's Final Justice upon the Arabs. His Message was
universal, and this too is told to us by God when he makes the Companions of
Muhammad (p) "witnesses unto mankind". The Qur'an is not dictated to by your
whim and fancy.
Moataz Emam
> My strategy is I am confessing my ignorance and inviting you to
> correct me. I am looking forward to this as an opportunity to hear
> the Muslim side of the story.
As I reread many parts of this thread and others, you have been given
ample discussion to make up your mind on Islamic issues. There is
nothing more, in my opinion, that anyone can say further. Read it again.
What you decide after that is totally upto you.
--
Moataz H. Emam
wmangoes
frustrate the plan of God and that God will humiliate the
disbelievers. And this is a proclamation from God and HIS Messenger to
the people on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage, that God is clear of
idolaters, and so is HIS Messenger. So if you repent, it will be
better for you; but if you turn away, then know that you cannot
frustrate the plan of God. And give tidings of a painful punishment to
those who disbelieve, Except those of the disbelievers with whom you
have entered into a treaty and who have not subsequently failed you in
anything nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill to these the treaty
you have made with them till their term. Surely ALLAH loves those that
are righteous." [Quran 9:2-4]
Koran 9.5 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the
idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege
them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and
keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;
surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Dear Saqib,
The wording of 9.5 is disturbing. I am willing to grant to you that
it COULD mean to slay the double-crossing idolaters alone, and not
those who had kept their treaties. I think the Koran would be a
better book if it were clearer on this point. The wording "slay the
idolaters wherever you find them" is very strong and broad and could
lead many, particularly an unsympathetic reader, to interpret it as
meaning kill all of the idolaters including the innocent ones (or if
you read all of 9.5, at least those who don't convert).
If you look at history, there have been many forced conversions of
others, even Christians and Jews, by Muslims throughout history. "Why
I am not a Muslim" has a chapter describing these events and it's just
horrible. I suspect many of these regrettable acts may have been
carried out by Muslims who were taking a broader interpretation of
this and other violent passages in the Koran.
chollanam...@mindspring.com
shared with usenet this thought:
>chollanam...@mindspring.com wrote:
I don't accept your spin. "Kill, kill, kill; slay, slay,
slay; smite, smite, smite--but only if you get permission first" is no
peaceful doctrine. Whatever paper walls the Koran erects in the way
of the homicidal passions it explicitly incites are of no avail in
real life. Fill a jihadi with religious bloodlust, and then tell him
to stop when certain holy days roll around? Doesn't happen. There's
too long of a historical record, of too many servants of Allah in too
many lands covering too great a span of time killing too many
non-Muslims for the sake of the glory of Islam, for you to point to
the tiny type and say "It has nothing to do with Islam".
And the "jihad of the spirit" may be a desirable goal, for
putting this jinn back in the lamp. I hope it succeeds in taking the
sanguinary element out of Islam and making it more harmlessly
new-agey. But I don't accept that this has already happened.
Sirach
Comment :-
These are jurists texts :-
The Manner of the Collecting the Jizya
1. Al-Maghili (d. 1504), Ahkam ahl al-Dhimma, in G. Vajda, Un Traite
On the day of payment they shall be assembled in a public place like the
suq. They should be standing there waiting in the lowest and dirtiest
place. The acting officials representing the Law shall be placed above them
and shall adopt a threatening attitude so that it seems to them, as well as
to others, that our object is to degrade them by pretending to take their
possessions. They will realise that we are doing them a favour (again) in
accepting from them the jizya and letting them go free. Then they shall be
dragged one by one (to the official responsible) for the exacting of
payment. When paying, the dhimmi will receive a blow and will be thrust
aside so that he will think that he has escaped the sword through this
(insult). This is the way the friends of the Lord, of the first and last
generations will act toward their infidel enemies, for might belongs to
Allah, to His Prophet, and to the Believers (p.811).
2. Al-Adawi
On an appointed day the Dhimmi - Christian and Jew - must present himself in
person, and not through the intermediary of an agent (wakil), before the
emir responsible for the collection of the jizya. The latter must be seated
on a chair raised in the form of a throne; the dhimmi will come forward
bearing the jizya held in the middle of the palm of his hand, whence the
emir will take it in such a way that his hand is above and the dhimmi's hand
underneath. Following this, the emir will strike the dhimmi on the neck
with his fist; a man will stand near the emir to chase away the dhimmi in
haste; then a second [dhimmi] and a third will come forward to suffer the
same treatment as well as all those who follow. All [Muslims] will be
admitted to enjoy this spectacle. None [of the dhimmi] will be allowed to
delegate a third party to pay the jizya in his stead, for they must suffer
this degradation personally; for perchance they will eventually come to
believe in Allah and his Prophet and be consequently delivered from this
distasteful yoke (19:107-8)
>From the Qur'anic injunction :-
'...Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that
forbidden by Allah and his Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth,
from among the people of the book, UNTIL THEY PAY THE JIZYAH WITH WILLING
SUBMISSION, AND FEEL THEMSELVES SUBDUED.' (9:29)
thebit
Sirach wrote:
> >Fear of whom? A fear of what?
>
> Comment :-
>
> These are jurists texts :-
I am more interested in the Qur'an.
> From the Qur'anic injunction :-
<snipped quote from Qur'an for brevity>
This has alredy been explained. Rejecting a Messenger when he is amidst you
brings a punishment from God. If the Rejectors are polytheists, they are
punished by death (e.g. the Pagan Arabs, the people of Lot (p), etc.) If they
are believers in the One God, they are made politcally subservient to the
followers of the Messenger (p) (e.g. the Jews when they rejected Jesus (p) and
the Jews and Christians upon their rejection of Muhammad (p)). The Jizyah, from
my understanding, is part of the Divine Law regarding a Messenger, and is a
punishment upon the Ahl-al-Kitaab for rejecting a Messenger, while he is amongst
them.
wmangoes
> wmangoes wrote:
> > As far as I can
> > tell, the whole peaceful message of the NT is entirely absent from the
> > Koran.
>
> This is usually nonsense peddled by people who reject the OT, something which
> Jesus (p) never did.
thebit, you are dead wrong here. Jesus said that a new form of
behavior was appropriate, that differed from the OT.
In Matthew:
5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
(The Koran is full of flattery of Allah's mercy, but does it
tell Muslims to be merciful?)
5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of their
righteousnous, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
5:38-39 You have heard that it was said "Eye for eye, tooth for
tooth" But I tell you, Don not resist an evil person. If
someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
5:43-45 You have heard that it was said "Love your neighbor and
hate your enemy" But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for
those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in
heaven...
That's just from my picking up the new testament and quickly
turning through a few pages of Matthew. It is not an
exhaustive list, it is just a taste of Jesus' teachings that
are not typical of what is said in the Old Testament, and that
are not repeated in the Koran.
M.S.M. Saifullah
> 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
.
.
> 5:38-39 You have heard that it was said "Eye for eye, tooth for
> tooth" But I tell you, Don not resist an evil person. If
> someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
>
> 5:43-45 You have heard that it was said "Love your neighbor and
> hate your enemy" But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for
> those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in
> heaven...
God bless America and bomb the Muslims in Afghanistan, Sudan, Iraq etc.
Starve a few millions in Iraq and North Korea and claim how "civilized" we
are.
Massacre a few thousand of Muslims in Bosnia (the Dutch Government took
the personal responsibility and resigned yesterday!) and then tell Muslims
how intolerant they are.
Love your enemies? Not!
> 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
> (The Koran is full of flattery of Allah's mercy, but does it
> tell Muslims to be merciful?)
Well, why not read some before you ask questions.
Wassalam
Saifullah
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/
thebit
> thebit, you are dead wrong here. Jesus said that a new form of
> behavior was appropriate, that differed from the OT.
Jesus (p) adhered to the Law. As such, his followers did too. In fact the Qur'an primarily
addresses these kinds of Christians. It uses the word "Nasaara", which is a reference to
the Nazarenes, an early sect of "Jewish" Christians, who despite believing in the divinity
of Jesus (p), upheld the Law. No where does Jesus (p) approve of abolishing the Law, or
avoiding any of its directives. Matthew 5: 17-18 tells us the opposite.
> 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Which has nothing to do with war. Is Jesus (p) doing away with the concept of war and
fighting?
Similar sentiments (to those in Matt 5: 5) are echoed in Qur'an 4: 114 and 49: 10.
> 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
> (The Koran is full of flattery of Allah's mercy, but does it
> tell Muslims to be merciful?)
An example of conduct is 7: 199.
> 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Read Qur'an 4: 90-94 and 4: 114.
> 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of their
> righteousnous, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Qur'an 3: 15-17 among many others telling us that those who are patient and persevere and
speak good and do good, and keep their prayer and spend in the way of God, and repent are
those who are given the Bliss of Paradise.
> 5:38-39 You have heard that it was said "Eye for eye, tooth for
> tooth" But I tell you, Don not resist an evil person. If
> someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Read Qur'an 5: 45.
There are more examples. Jesus (p) could not make war to spread Religion. He was never able
to establish an organised collective, a prerequisite for engaging in war. This didn't mean
he did away with the concept of warfare. As such, once he was saved by God, his Rejectors
were punished by God, Himself.
Imran Razi
Christianity.
Friendly note to mods: I know you have to do some subjective
line-drawing, but the line's been crossed a few rounds ago.
Regards,
Imran Razi
wmangoes
>wmangoes wrote:
>
>> thebit, you are dead wrong here. Jesus said that a new form of
>> behavior was appropriate, that differed from the OT.
>
>Jesus (p) adhered to the Law. As such, his followers did too. In fact the Qur'an primarily
>addresses these kinds of Christians. It uses the word "Nasaara", which is a reference to
>the Nazarenes, an early sect of "Jewish" Christians, who despite believing in the divinity
>of Jesus (p), upheld the Law. No where does Jesus (p) approve of abolishing the Law, or
>avoiding any of its directives. Matthew 5: 17-18 tells us the opposite.
I think the idea was that nobody was living up to the law, and it was
needed for one person to do it so Jesus happened. After that,
everyone bases their salvation on their connection with Jesus who
lived up to the law for them, rather than by trying to satisfying the
law, which they probably won't be able to do.
Your responses here are interesting, but you are to some extent
missing the point, which is, what does the Koran give Isa credit for?
Why does Allah like him so much? Citing Koran quotes that are not
attributed to Isa does not answer this question.
>> 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
>
>Which has nothing to do with war. Is Jesus (p) doing away with the concept of war and
>fighting?
To some extent he did. Some of his teachings, like phrasing the
famous 5:38-39 "Turn the other cheek" bit as a mandatory command, come
close to pacifism. Jesus was definitely close to pacificism. And
most of the whole NT is about spreading the faith through peaceful
means.
I think the pre-Hejira Koran has a lot of strong statements about
tolerance of different viewpoints that are missing in the NT, where
the NT is more of an approach of non-violence in general.
>Similar sentiments (to those in Matt 5: 5) are echoed in Qur'an 4: 114 and 49: 10.
4.114 and 49.10 praise peacemaking, not meekness. And these are not
quotes from Isa.
>> 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
>> (The Koran is full of flattery of Allah's mercy, but does it
>> tell Muslims to be merciful?)
>
>An example of conduct is 7: 199.
True, 7.199 advocates mercy, but not as a quote from Isa.
>> 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
>
>Read Qur'an 4: 90-94 and 4: 114.
4.90 advocates accepting the overtures of peace, but not as a quote
>from Isa. 4.91-93 are irrelevant, I don't know why you mention them.
4.114 has been discussed above, I think it is relevant here.
>> 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of their
>> righteousnous, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
>
>Qur'an 3: 15-17 among many others telling us that those who are patient and persevere and
>speak good and do good, and keep their prayer and spend in the way of God, and repent are
>those who are given the Bliss of Paradise.
Why do you mention this quote? It has nothing to do with being
persecuted for your righteousness! I don't see how it relates at all,
it's like you opened up your Koran and picked a verse at random.
>> 5:38-39 You have heard that it was said "Eye for eye, tooth for
>> tooth" But I tell you, Don not resist an evil person. If
>> someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
>
>Read Qur'an 5: 45.
This is very good. You really have a good point. It still isn't
quoted as Isa saying it, but it is a very good match for a very
important New Testament concept in the Koran. Last night I told
someone that this concept didn't exist in the Koran, and I just sent
them e-mail to tell them I was wrong.
------------------------
You didn't say anything about the quote
Matt 5:43-45 You have heard that it was said "Love your neighbor and
hate your enemy" But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those
who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven...
Is that in the Koran anywhere? It is widely considered an important
Christian teaching.
>There are more examples. Jesus (p) could not make war to spread Religion. He was never able
>to establish an organised collective, a prerequisite for engaging in war. This didn't mean
>he did away with the concept of warfare. As such, once he was saved by God, his Rejectors
>were punished by God, Himself.
Many Christians believe Christ was a pacifist. I disagree with this.
But there is a lack of talk of warfare in the NT, as compared with the
OT and the Koran in general, for exactly the reason you give. But
only a few Christians today are totally against war under all
circumstances.