How do you make dhikr?
GSimp95605
Asalam-alaikum,
According to the Quran and Sunnah, what are the permisible ways of making
dhikr (remembering Allah)?
Could someone post dhikrs which an individual can say?
And why is/isn't it permissible to make dhikr in a group?
Salam
Gilberto
Dien Alfred Rice
In article <4u0guu$6...@shellx.best.com>, gsimp...@aol.com (GSimp95605) writes:
> Asalam-alaikum,
Wa alaikum salam,
> According to the Quran and Sunnah, what are the permisible ways of making
> dhikr (remembering Allah)?
> Could someone post dhikrs which an individual can say?
One dhikr is simply "La ilaha illa Allah." There is no limit to how
much you can do dhikr, the more the better. If you are sincere in
your dhikr, you should feel the difference within your heart,
insha-Allah. I've included hadiths about this below.
Personally, I recommend learning dhikr in an authentic Sufi tariqa.
> And why is/isn't it permissible to make dhikr in a group?
Performing dhikr in an assembly is mentioned in a number of hadiths --
I have included two hadiths below.
The evidence:
=============
A saying of Ibn Abbas -- there is no limit to dhikr:
Ali b. Abi Talha relates that Ibn Abbas said, "All
obligations imposed upon man by Allah are clearly marked and
one is exempted from them in the presence of a genuine cause.
The only exception is the obligation of dhikr. Allah has set
no specific limits for it, and under no circumstances is one
allowed to be negligent of it. We are commanded to `remember
Allah standing, sitting, and reclining on your sides,'
[Qur'an 3:191] in the morning, during the day, at sea or on
land, on journey or at home, in poverty and in prosperity, in
sickness or in health, openly and secretly, and, in fact, at
all times throughout one's life and in all circumstances."
This is from "Fiqh us-Sunnah" by as-Sayyid Sabiq, vol. 4, ch. 6
("Adh-dhikr").
A hadith on saying La ilaha illa Allah (one way of doing dhikr):
Abu Hurairah reported that the Prophet, peace be upon him,
said, "Renew your faith." "How can we renew our faith?" they
asked. The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, "Say always,
`La ilaha illa Allah'." [From Ahmad, with a sound isnad.]
(Quoted from Fiqh us-Sunnah, vol. 4, ch. 6.)
Saying dhikr in an assembly:
Ibn `Umar reported, "The Prophet, peace be upon him, said,
`When you pass by a garden of paradise, avail yourselves of
it.' The Companions asked, `What are the gardens of
Paradise, O Messenger of Allah?" The Prophet, peace be upon
him, replied, `The assemblies of dhikr. There are some
angels of Allah who go about looking for such assemblies of
dhikr, and when they find them they surround them.'"
(Quoted from Fiqh us-Sunnah, vol. 4, ch. 6.)
There is also this important hadith about dhikr in general, and dhikr
in an assembly:
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him),
who said that the Prophet (may the blessings and peace of Allah be
upon him) said: Allah the Almighty says:
I am as My servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes
mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make
mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an
assembly, I make mention of him in an assembly better than
it. And if he draws near to Me a hand's span, I draw near to
him an arm's length; and if he draws near to Me an arm's
length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he
comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.
It was related by al-Bukhari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn
Majah).
>From "Forty Hadith Qudsi," selected and translated by Ezzeddin
Ibrahim and Denys Johnson-Davies (Dar Al-Koran Al-Kareem,
Lebanon, 1980), hadith no. 15.
Wassalam,
Fariduddien Rice
Shawki Hamdan
Salaamun Alaykum,
GSimp95605 (Gilberto) wrote:
> According to the Quran and Sunnah, what are the permisible ways of
> making dhikr (remembering Allah)?
> Could someone post dhikrs which an individual can say?
> And why is/isn't it permissible to make dhikr in a group?
Salaam, Gilberto.
The word "dhkr" or "thikr" means rememberance. Anytime you think of God,
you make thikr. Thus there really is no "permissible" or "impremissible"
ways of doing thikr. Now that Dien Rice gave you the Sufi tariqa-way of
doing thikr, I would like to suggest the Qur'anic way:
1. The five daily salat prayers are best thikr. Please see 20:14 where
God commands Moses "Observe salat for My thikr."
2. Reading the Qur'an is thikr. The Qur'an itself is called "ath-thkr"
by
God. Please see 15:6,9, and 38:1 for example.
I believe this answers your question about permissibility of "Group
thikr". Congregation salat prayers and recitation of the Qur'an are not
only permissible, they are enjoined by God.
3. Any form of supplication (Du'aa) is thikr. What better ways than what
Abraham and Muhammad supplicated:
Abraham: My Lord, make me one who observes the salat regularly.(14:40)
Muhammad: My Lord, increase me in knowledge. (20:114)
4. The Qur'an is full of direct suuplications that can be either
memorized or read. Here are just a few examples:
2:127-129 Abraham and Ismail's dur'aa to God while raising the Ka'aba.
2:201 One of my favorite "Our Lord, give us in this life hasanah, and in
the Afterlife hasanah, and protect us from the retribution of
Hell."
10:85 People of Moses at repentence.
18:10 The supplication of the sleepers of the cave. Beautiful.
25:74 Beautiful general supplication of the believers.
40:7-9 Supplication of the angels. What could be better ? !!!
Here are a few more suggestions: 2:285-286, 3:8, 3:16, 3:53, 3:147,
3:191-194.
I think you get the point. The Qur'an is all we need to be guided and to
remember God. This is why it is called "ath-thikr."
Wassalaam,
Shawki
m a m
IN THE NAME OF ALLAH. THE EVER-MERCIFUL, THE MERCY-GIVING.
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
Heavenly Salutations and Peace be upon the Messenger of Allah
and upon his family, his noble companions
and all those who follow them in righteousness until the Day of Judgment.
br. Gilberto;
Assalamu alaykum wa rahmat-ULLAHi wa barakatuhu.
> According to the Quran and Sunnah, what are the permisible ways of making
> dhikr (remembering Allah)?
>From reading Quran to reciting the reported Prayers, like the thecker befor
sleeping, after Salah, or saying BismEllah before eating and drinking and
AlhamduLelah After, these all are permisible ways of making Thecker. Also
in many Ahadith the MESSENGER -S- recommended many types of Thecker that
could be said any time as much as you want where the more the better.
A good example for that is "Subhana Allah wa Alhamdu Lelah wa La Elaha Ella
Allah wa Allah Akber" which the Messenger -s- described it as the most
beloved Thecker to Allah, and it's not ristricted with a time or place like
the Theckers of Salah , Sleeping, eating, etc.
The best way to do Thecker is the way of the Messenger -s- as described in
Quran and Sunnah.
> Could someone post dhikrs which an individual can say?
I've mentioned some above, but I recommend you to get a book that
lists the Theckers of Quran and Sunnah. One good book is:
Riyadh-us-saleheen
by: Yahya An-nawawi
Translation to English by: Madni Abbasi
Published by: International Islamic Publishing House
A very good book about Thecker is:
Saheeh Alkalem Attyab
by: Ebin Taymiyah
where he only reported the authentic (saheeh) Ahadith about thecker, but I
don't know weather there is an English edition of this book or not.
> And why is/isn't it permissible to make dhikr in a group?
As I said before; The best way to do Thecker is the way of
the Messenger -s- as described in Quran and Sunnah. Any other way will
be Bid'ah (innovation) and is rejected by the Messenger -s- himself.
As for the group Thecker; there is some Ahadith which mentioned the
group Thecker, but we have to have them the way it was conducted at the
time of Muhammad -s-, for instance in one Hadith the Messenger -s- said
in a Holy Hadith (in the meaning) :
"Allah the Almighty says: I am as My servant thinks I am.
I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me
to himself, I make mention of him to Myself;
and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him
in an assembly better than it."
This refers to the difference between a muslim who remeber Allah -s-
by himself and the muslim who take the intiative to reminde his brothers and
sisters around him by Allah -s- by an advise or teaching them Quran
or just by mentioning the name of Allah -s- where the
group around him will remember Allah -s- as will. But difintly this
doesn't refere to the formal groups of thecker that some of the Muslims
(almost the sufies) used to do, because 1) there way is not the way The Messenger
-s- and his Companions did it, and 2) those who do it leave the reported authentic
Theckers to an innovative types, which is not a good move!
This type of argument apply to all other Ahadith that mentioned the thecker
in a gruop or assembly.
As I said before the best (and only permissible) way to do thecker
is Muhammad's way -s-.
> Salam
wa alykum assalm
majed almogbel
Dr Syed Rashid Ali
Shawki Hamdan wrote:
>
> Salaamun Alaykum,
>
> GSimp95605 (Gilberto) wrote:
> The word "dhkr" or "thikr" means rememberance. Anytime you think of God,
> you make thikr. Thus there really is no "permissible" or "impremissible"
> ways of doing thikr. Now that Dien Rice gave you the Sufi tariqa-way of
> doing thikr, I would like to suggest the Qur'anic way:
Wa Alaikum Assalam
I would like to correct a misconception created by Br Shawki's above statement i.e. as if the Dhikr done by the
Sufi Tariqa way is not what is mentioned in Quran. No doubt that any act done with a proper intention is a way
of remembering Allah, so to say a Dhikr. But 'Dhikr' is a specific form of prayer is quite distinct from all
other forms of prayers or supplications. According to Holy Quran, it is a distinct form or 'ibadah from salat
or from reading the Holy Quran, for example.
> 1. The five daily salat prayers are best thikr. Please see 20:14 where
> God commands Moses "Observe salat for My thikr."
>
Allah says (Quran 62:10): "Then when the Juma salaat is finished, you may disperse through the land, and seek
the bounty of Allah, AND DO DHIKR OF ALLAH TOO MUCH SO THAT YOU MAY BE SUCCESSFUL."
> 2. Reading the Qur'an is thikr. The Qur'an itself is called "ath-thkr"
> by
> God. Please see 15:6,9, and 38:1 for example.
>
According to Quran 8:2 : "The believers are only those who, when the Dhikr of Allah is done, feel fear in their
hearts and WHEN HIS VERSES ARE RECITED, they increase their faith; and they put their faith in their Lord."
These two quotations clearly prove that salaat and reciting Quran are quite distinct than performing Dhikr.
Likewise there are proofs in Quran (and Hadith) about Dhikr as a distinct type of prayer than other forms of
prayers.
Allah says in Quran:
(2:152): "Thus you do my Dhikr, I will do your Dhikr."
(7:180): "All the Beautiful names belong to Allah. Call Him through them."
This calling of Allah by reciting His names repeatedly is the Dhikr. The extract of Holy Quran are these
beautiful names of Allah. Behind each name of Allah is a vast ocean of knowledge and blessings. There can be no
better way of supplicating to Allah after attracting the Blessings and Mercy of Allah through Dhikr.
Repetition of the names of Allah or of La ilaha illa Allah, as Brother Fariduddin has pointed out, is a very
important part of Dhikr. There is a spiritual explanation but for making our Brothers who are sceptical of this
form of prayer let me explain it scientific terms.
Every sound has its own frequency. It is the repitition of these frequencies that are used in modern technology
in various disciplines. For blasting the mountains, for imlosions of buildings and For example, Ultrasound
Machines are used in Medicine to breakdown Kidney Stones.
Quran is likewise Sound of Allah which according to the Holy Quran 59:21 :"Had we sent down this Quran on a
mountain, you would surely have seen it humbling itself cleaving (to dust) asunder for the fear of Allah."
But it was the Heart of Holy Prophet Muhammad Rasoolullah pbuh which took the impact of that sound and could
bear it. Hence the verse 18:110 "Say (O Muhammad!) I am no doubt a man like you, (BUT) I RECIEVE WAHI...." And
that makes a world of difference between an ordinary man and the Holy Prophet pbuh.
Coming back to the sound and repetition of it, every name of Allah has a specific frequency and when repeated
recited, has its impact on heart, which is why Allah made a categorical statement in Quran (13:28):
"VERILY IN THE DHIKR (REMEMBRANCE) OF ALLAH DO HEARTS FIND PEACE'
Wassalam
Rashid
>
> Shawki
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Shawki Hamdan
Salaamun Alaykum,
Dr Syed Rashid Ali wrote:
I wrote:
The word "dhkr" or "thikr" means rememberance. Anytime you think of God,
you make thikr. Thus there really is no "permissible" or "impremissible"
ways of doing thikr. Now that Dien Rice gave you the Sufi tariqa-way of
doing thikr, I would like to suggest the Qur'anic way:
> I would like to correct a misconception created by Br Shawki's above
> statement i.e. as if the Dhikr done by the Sufi Tariqa way is not what
> is mentioned in Quran.
That seems to be the main point of brother Dr. Sayed Rashid Ali. If he
did not see my comment about the Sufi way he probably would not have
replied. How sectarian can we get ? Everything I provided in my post was
from the Qur'an, but because I wanted to make it distinctive from the
sufi, sunni, shiite, or any sectarian way, my post was attacked.
> No doubt that any act done with a proper intention is a way
> of remembering Allah, so to say a Dhikr.
Keep the above in mind as you follow brother Dr. Ali's argument. He will
contradict it very shortly.
> But 'Dhikr' is a specific form of prayer is quite distinct from all
> other forms of prayers or supplications. According to Holy Quran, it is
> a distinct form or 'ibadah from salat or from reading the Holy Quran,
> for example.
Really ? What does "Aqimissalaata li-THIKRI" mean to you ? Salat is a
form of Thikr. In fat, the whole purpose of it is thikr.
1. The five daily salat prayers are best thikr. Please see 20:14 where
God commands Moses "Observe salat for My thikr."
> Allah says (Quran 62:10): "Then when the Juma salaat is finished, you
> may disperse through the land, and seek the bounty of Allah, AND DO
> DHIKR OF ALLAH TOO MUCH SO THAT YOU MAY BE SUCCESSFUL."
That does not contradict with what I said. Thikr can be before, during
and after salat.
2. Reading the Qur'an is thikr. The Qur'an itself is called "ath-thkr"
by God. Please see 15:6,9, and 38:1 for example.
> According to Quran 8:2 : "The believers are only those who, when the
> Dhikr of Allah is done, feel fear in their hearts and WHEN HIS VERSES
> ARE RECITED, they increase their faith; and they put their faith in
> their Lord."
What happens when God's revelations are recited ? People remember God,
and thus THIKR occurs. So where is the cotradiction ?
> These two quotations clearly prove that salaat and reciting Quran are
> quite distinct than performing Dhikr.
Brother Dr. Ali, I gave you Qur'anic evidence that THIKR is the reason
for Salat, as God tells us in the Qur'an. This makes Salat a form of
thikr. Thikr is remembering God, simply put. When you are anticipating
the sunset salat and it is still not due then you are making thikr.
They are interrelated forms of worship. Thikr occurs concurrently with
salat, as well as outside salat. I am making thkr now when I write you
this reply. Alhamdulillah.
> Likewise there are proofs in Quran (and Hadith) about Dhikr as a
> distinct type of prayer than other forms of prayers.
Interesting. Let's see them.
> Allah says in Quran:
> (2:152): "Thus you do my Dhikr, I will do your Dhikr."
Does that show that salat and recitation of the Qur'an are not thikr ?
> (7:180): "All the Beautiful names belong to Allah. Call Him through
them."
Same as above.
> This calling of Allah by reciting His names repeatedly is the Dhikr.
> The extract of Holy Quran are these beautiful names of Allah. Behind
> each name of Allah is a vast ocean of knowledge and blessings. There
> can be no better way of supplicating to Allah after attracting the
> Blessings and Mercy of Allah through Dhikr.
I do not recall saying anything that contradicts with that.
> Repetition of the names of Allah or of La ilaha illa Allah, as Brother
> Fariduddin has pointed out, is a very important part of Dhikr.
I do not contradict with that either. But this information is in the
Qur'an. Why do we need hadith, sufism, sunnism, shiitism, etc to learn
that when the Qur'an is the word of God and contains them ?
> There is a spiritual explanation but for making our Brothers who are
> sceptical of this form of prayer let me explain it scientific terms.
Nothing like scientific terms to reinforce srong faith. More on that
later.
> Every sound has its own frequency. It is the repitition of these
> frequencies that are used in modern technology in various disciplines.
> For blasting the mountains, for imlosions of buildings and For example,
> Ultrasound Machines are used in Medicine to breakdown Kidney Stones.
That's very scientific indeed. On the same basis we can say that salat
prayers were prescribed by Allah (swt)in a precise manner; all sounds
and movements were scientifically calculated to produce the effect of
communicating with God at a specific frequency amplitude of sound, as
well as frequency of occurence of the act itself . Therefore, any
additions, subtractions, innovations in salat nullify it and makes it
absolutely useless.
Did the prophet Muhammad say "Ash-hadu an laa ilaaha illa Allah, wa anna
Muhammadan rasoulullah" in his prayers and shahada ? That seems
illogical and it violates the scientific calculation intended.
> Quran is likewise Sound of Allah which according to the Holy Quran
> 59:21 :"Had we sent down this Quran on a mountain, you would surely
> have seen it humbling itself cleaving (to dust) asunder for the fear of
> Allah."
Subhana Allah. Why don't the sufi's, sunni's, and all other sectarians
realize what the above verse means when they add all sorts of phrases in
their salat ?
Verse 17:110 says "..Do not utter your salat loudly nor softly, but seek
in between those a way.."
Does that have a scientific explanation as far as the frequency and
amplitude of sound ? If so, why do most sectarians read their salat
silently during the day time ?
> But it was the Heart of Holy Prophet Muhammad Rasoolullah pbuh which
> took the impact of that sound and could bear it. Hence the verse 18:110
> "Say (O Muhammad!) I am no doubt a man like you, (BUT) I RECIEVE
> WAHI...." And that makes a world of difference between an ordinary man
> and the Holy Prophet pbuh.
Where do you see that capitalized "BUT" after "basharun mithlukum" or "a
human like you" ? Perhaps the sectarians should focus on the total
meaning in this verse for it exposes their shirk when making Muhammad
above mankind. Here is the whole verse:
"Say' I am only a human like you, being inspired that your Lord is
One Lord. Therefore, whoever hopes to meet His Lord let him work
righteousness, and not set up anyone as partner in his worship to
His Lord."
The above verse is telling us the opposite of what brother Dr. Ali is
saying. Islam is about God, not about Muhammad. Worshipping God alone is
the only way to salvation. Glorifying human prophets is a blatant
violation of the above verse.
> Coming back to the sound and repetition of it, every name of Allah has
> a specific frequency and when repeated recited, has its impact on
> heart, which is why Allah made a categorical statement in Quran
> (13:28):
>
> "VERILY IN THE DHIKR (REMEMBRANCE) OF ALLAH DO HEARTS FIND PEACE'
Masha'a Allah. For someone who has a scientific explanation for thikr, I
wonder if brother Dr. Ali has examined the scientific miracle of the
Qur'an; mathematically speaking . After all, innamaa ykhsha Allaha min
ibaadi al-ulamaa' or "Only those with knowledge fear Allah."
Just a few notes about your signature statement:
> "YOU CAN'T BE FAITHFUL UNLESS YOU LOVE ME MORE THAN YOUR FATHER,
> YOUR SON & ALL MANKIND."(Sahih Bukhari)
Is that a hadith ? Did the prophet say that before or after he died ?
> AHMADIYYA/QADIANI MOVEMENT IN ISLAM
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> A MOVEMENT OF REFORM OR A PIOUS FRAUD IN THE NAME OF ISLAM?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So that's what this is all about, a commercial against Ahmadiyya, not
that I care about Ahmadiyya, Bahaa'ism, Sufism, Sunnism, or even
Khalifatism if there is such a thing.
Brother Dr. Ali, you went to great lengths to tear my article a part
because of my comment about the Sufi way. Unfortunately, even with your
"Scientific" evidence, you have proved nothing to the validity of any
source of Islamic worship besides the Qur'an. Thank you for helping me
prove that. Jaazaakum Allahu Khairan.
Wassalaam,
Shawki
Dr. Ijaz A. Rauf
Folowing response was sent by Br. Jaleel Akber, his e-mail address is
given at the end of this message.
news:4u0guu$6...@shellx.best.com
gsimp...@aol.com (GSimp95605) wrote:
>Asalam-alaikum,
>
>According to the Quran and Sunnah, what are the permisible ways of making
>dhikr (remembering Allah)?
>Could someone post dhikrs which an individual can say?
>
>And why is/isn't it permissible to make dhikr in a group?
>
>Salam
>
>Gilberto
>
I would highly recommend that the book of Hazrat Mirza Bashir-ud-Din
Mehmood Ahmad (RA) (the second Successor to the Promised Messiah, AS)
entitled "Zikr-e-Ilahi", which has been translated into English in 1994
as _Rememberance of Allah_ by respected Munawar Saeed Sahib of
the Washington D.C. area, this book is available from Islam international
publications Ltd, Islamabad, Tilford, Surrey, UK and soon will
be placed online on a web pageof Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jaleel Akbar SRA Corporation
jak...@edms16.dtic.dla.mil Fairfax, VA
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Dr. Ijaz A. Rauf, Department of Physics, Queen's University, Kingston,
Ontario, CANADA, K7L 3N6. Ph: (613)545-6000 ext.7264, Fax: (613)545-6463
E-mail: Ra...@QUCDN.QueensU.Ca, Ra...@jeff-lab.QueensU.ca
**** Love For All ** Hatred For None **** I Express My Opinions Only ***
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* You can watch for yourself on satellite TV, for details about time *
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Iljas Baker
Gilberto asked an interesting question about why it is not permissable to
say dhikr in a group. I have never heard of this ruling, what is its
source? Of course as most of you know the Sufis do group dhikr which seems
to contradict this "ruling" if that's what it is. To do dhikr, in the
Quranic sense is to remember Allah. Ideally it should proceed from the
heart to the mouth, at any rate the heart must be involved for it to be a
true dhikr--there are numerous hadiths to this effect. So this suggests
that one of the reasons that group dhikr is outlawed is that if it done as
a group exercise the focus will most likely be inducing a group trance-
like state or performing the dhikr in harmony with the other group
members. In these cases I suggest there is little opportunity for the
heart to be involved. Most trance like states are simply an expansion of
the nafs and not a true spiritual state. Ditto if you treat the dhikr as
some sort of sound exercise whose power increases in proportion to the
number of people performing it.
Salaams,
Iljas
--
*****************************************************************
Ilyas Baker, Faculty of Social Sciences and Humanities, Mahidol
University, Salaya, Nakhon Pathom 737170, Thailand.
Tel. 662-441-9324
Fax. 662-441-9738
*****************************************************************
Tanju Cataltepe
In article <4ucnan$s...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
Iljas Baker <fr...@mucc.mahidol.ac.th> wrote:
>[...] So this suggests
>that one of the reasons that group dhikr is outlawed is that if it done as
>a group exercise the focus will most likely be inducing a group trance-
>like state or performing the dhikr in harmony with the other group
>members. In these cases I suggest there is little opportunity for the
>heart to be involved. [...]
What would you say about the
congregational prayers ('salat')
with this line of reasoning?
I think the danger that you are
alluding to exists in any public
act of worship yet there is no
categorical prohibition against
them.
-Tanju
----------------------------
http://www.wakeup.org/tanju
GSimp95605
Asalam-alaikum,
The most common reason (or at least the most "reasonable" reason) for why
certain Muslims object to group dhikr is that they claim it is a bida- an
innovation in religion.
But then there are hadith which talk about the excellence of group dhikr
(which I believe were posted early in this thread).
But then an anti-Sufi argument could be that it is fine for Muslims to
sit together in one place and *individually* do dhikr but it is a bida to
do so *simultaneously*.
But then recently I was thinking about the eids and how there is dhikr
durring certain prayers on the days of eid and how there is a dhikr which
is said *simultaneously* by the group in the time leading up to the eid
prayer.
Is there a specific text (in Quran or hadith) which would clearly address
the permissibility of doing dhikr in a group simultaneously? Is the above
example of dhikr during the eids enough to make the practice not a bida?
Peace
Gilberto
Most recently, I was talking about the subject with one ex-Sufi brother.
In his case, he conceeded that I presented him with the ha
m a m
IN THE NAME OF ALLAH. THE EVER-MERCIFUL, THE MERCY-GIVING.
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
Heavenly Salutations and Peace be upon the Messenger of Allah
and upon his family, his noble companions
and all those who follow them in righteousness until the Day of
Judgment.
Tanju Cataltepe
Assalamu alaykum wa rahmat-ULLAHi wa barakatuhu:
You wrote:
> In article <4ucnan$s...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
> Iljas Baker <fr...@mucc.mahidol.ac.th> wrote:
>
> >[...] So this suggests
> >that one of the reasons that group dhikr is outlawed is that if it done as
> >a group exercise the focus will most likely be inducing a group trance-
> >like state or performing the dhikr in harmony with the other group
> >members. In these cases I suggest there is little opportunity for the
> >heart to be involved. [...]
>
> What would you say about the
> congregational prayers ('salat')
> with this line of reasoning?
But in congregational prayers ('salat') you do not repeat with the
group all what the Imam say (or other prayers) except for saying
"Ameen". Otherwise every individual is reciting alone, or all the
group listen to the Imam.
majed almogbel
m a m
IN THE NAME OF ALLAH. THE EVER-MERCIFUL, THE MERCY-GIVING.
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
Heavenly Salutations and Peace be upon the Messenger of Allah
and upon his family, his noble companions
and all those who follow them in righteousness until the Day of
Judgment.
Gilberto;
Assalamu alaykum wa rahmat-ULLAHi wa barakatuhu.
> But then there are hadith which talk about the excellence of group dhik=
r
> (which I believe were posted early in this thread).
The way the Messenger -s- and his companion -r- did group Thikr is very
different
than the way sufies do it. We don't say reject group Thikr, we just ask
to do it
the way Muhammad -s- did it, not the way some Shykh or Tariqa do.
> But then recently I was thinking about the eids and how there is dhikr
> durring certain prayers on the days of eid and how there is a dhikr whi=
ch
> is said *simultaneously* by the group in the time leading up to the eid
> prayer.
When you go back to Sunnah you'll find that the Sunnah is to do Thecker
in the Eid
individually not simultaneously. What people used to do is not
necessarily Sunnah.
I try to dig for the Hadith about this matter for you, In sha=92a Allah.
majed almogbel.
Tanju Cataltepe
In article <4ui64v$h...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gsimp...@aol.com
(GSimp95605) wrote:
>[...]
>Is there a specific text (in Quran or hadith) which would clearly address
>the permissibility of doing dhikr in a group simultaneously? Is the above
>example of dhikr during the eids enough to make the practice not a bida?
Alaikum salam,
I think the methodologically acceptable question would be to ask if there
is anything in the Qur'an or hadith clearly addressing the *prohibition*
of doing dhikr in a group simultaneously.
One can investigate further where this act can be classified in the
spectrum of actions from obligatory to prohibited.
-Tanju
______________________________________________________________________
ta...@wakeup.org http://www.wakeup.org/tanju/
"Wake up now from your heedlessnes before the day
comes when you are awakened without your will" Abdul-Qadir Gilani
Tanju Cataltepe
In article <4ukrq2$n...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, maln...@maine.maine.edu wrote:
>[...]
>But in congregational prayers ('salat') you do not repeat with the
>group all what the Imam say (or other prayers) except for saying
>"Ameen". Otherwise every individual is reciting alone, or all the
>group listen to the Imam.
Wa alaikum salam,
'Salat' involves more than reciting, the bodily movements are an essential
part of the salat. And we do these all together when we pray in a
congregation.
The original question that I responded to was if the group activity would
take away from the "involvement of the heart". The existence of the
congregational salat shows that this line of reasoning can't say anything
about the prohibition of doing dhikr in a group.
m a m
IN THE NAME OF ALLAH. THE EVER-MERCIFUL, THE MERCY-GIVING.
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
Heavenly Salutations and Peace be upon the Messenger of Allah
and upon his family, his noble companions
and all those who follow them in righteousness until the Day of
Judgment.
Tanju Cataltepe;
Assalamu alaykum wa rahmat-ULLAHi wa barakatuhu.
> I think the methodologically acceptable question would be to ask if there
> is anything in the Qur'an or hadith clearly addressing the *prohibition*
> of doing dhikr in a group simultaneously.
Brother Tanju; we have to be careful here. Thecker is a worshipping,
and
Allah -s- likes to be worshiped the way he -s- described. So the role
for Ebadat(Worshipping) that you have to find an evidence from Quran or
Sunnah
that this act is lawful, else it will be Bed'ah(innovation) and rejected
by Allah -s- and his Messenger -s-. As for other matters of life (non-
religous matters) the law is that every thing is Halal(lawful) unless
prooven
otherwise.
majed almogbel
Fouad Haddad
>Brother Tanju; we have to be careful here. Thecker is a worshipping,
>and
>Allah -s- likes to be worshiped the way he -s- described. So the role
>for Ebadat(Worshipping) that you have to find an evidence from Quran or
>Sunnah
>that this act is lawful, else it will be Bed'ah(innovation) and rejected
>by Allah -s- and his Messenger -s-. As for other matters of life (non-
>religous matters) the law is that every thing is Halal(lawful) unless
>prooven
>otherwise.
>majed almogbel
>From where do these divisions between "religious" and "non-
religious" matters come? In Islam every single act in the life of
the believer is a religious matter, and the Shari`a clearly classifies
every single act of obedience to Allah, including, for example, feeding
your horse, as worship.
Dhikr of Allah is one of the excellent acts that are stressed over a hundred
times in the Holy Qur'an. There is no restrictions on its modality whatsoever.
The restrictions on modality pertain to obligatory acts. The Shari`a is
clear and everyone knows what they have to do. Are those who are making up
reasons to discourage others from making dhikr not afraid of Allah in this
tremendous matter?
Blessings and Peace on the Prophet, his Family, and his Companions
Abu Hammad
m a m
IN THE NAME OF ALLAH. THE EVER-MERCIFUL, THE MERCY-GIVING.
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
Heavenly Salutations and Peace be upon the Messenger of Allah
and upon his family, his noble companions
and all those who follow them in righteousness until the Day of
Judgment.
Br. Abu Hammad
Assalamu alaykum wa rahmat-ULLAHi wa barakatuhu.
You wrote:
> ... Are those who are making up
> reasons to discourage others from making dhikr not afraid of Allah in this
> tremendous matter?
With all the respect; Please read my previous posts to know that:
We Don't discourage others from making dhikr.
In deed; because we are afraid of Allah in this tremendous matter:
We encourage others to make Thecker
following the Tariqah(way) of the Messenger -s-,
not any other Tariqah.
Is this too much?
majed almogbel
Ghazali
Assalaamu Alaikum
Everyone seems to have some different opinion on how to do dhikr. Instead
of arguing about it we should be doing it. I think there is some
confusion or maybe someone is trying to make a point by using misleading
terms. Yes salat is dhikr, fasting is dhikr, etc. But dhikr is a very
general term. Salat and fasting are forms of dhikr, but it doesn't make
sense to say dhikr is a form of salat. All the five obligated prayers are
forms of dhikr, but all forms of dhikr aren't restricted to the prayers,
or reading the qur'an. Dhikr includes saying bismillah before you eat,
saying the dua's that the prophet said before entering a house, starting a
journey, etc. Another form of dhikr, is praising Allah. In which surah
is Alhamdulillah repeated 33 times, then Subhanallah repeated 33 times,
then Allahu Akbar 34 times. None. Yet this is what the prophet use to
do, especially AFTER Asr Prayer. As far as doing dhikr in a group, the
hadiths were already mentioned. One of the only time, and maybe the only,
when dhikr is not allowed is when you are using the bathroom. Amazingly,
when you are done using the bathroom, you are suppose to say Allahuma
Gufranuka (Allah Forgive Me). Why? Because during that time, I wasn't
remembering You.
Allah forgive me for my mistakes. Assalaamu Alaikum
Fouad Haddad
> We encourage others to make Thecker
> following the Tariqah(way) of the Messenger -s-,
> not any other Tariqah.
>Is this too much?
Neither too much nor too little, since it has any meaning one wishes to ascribe
it, and hence is meaningless.
The point was -- since the response has strayed from it -- that there is no
restriction on group dhikr. If one says otherwise, one must prove it.
Abu Hammad
Iljas Baker
Discussion of this topic quickly brought us all to the heart and mystery
of Islam. What actually happens during the namaaz and the dhikr or what
actually should happen? It is not so easy to answer that or even to
understand the answer. Referring to the hadith is only part of the way.
For example, if we say that the hadith or Qur'an mentions "assemblies of
dhikr" we should not rush to equate our assemblies with those being
referred to, perhaps they are different in some crucial sense.
We will continue to refer to hadith with that proviso. There is a hadith
to the effect that our prayer (whether in congregation or not) is accepted
only if the heart is present when we say it. In the congregational prayer
if the Imam is reciting with his heart present I think this might help the
congregation to make the movements of the prayer etc with their hearts
present. In general the congregational prayer is not disturbing so even if
the Imam's heart is not present it would not necessarily be an obstacle
for the congregation. Some group dhikr may not be disturbing therefore it
might be okay to do this kind of dhikr and there will usually be a place
or time for inner quiet too. But I would like to warn brothers away from
those group dhikr that aim for trance or treat the words as having
mystical power-- the sort of thing you might read about in some of the
books about the hundred names of Allah or as described in the stories of
people eating paper with a name of Allah written on it so that they can be
healed. This is magic, not Islam.
We like to talk about the dhikr and the prayer as if they were some kind
of unidimensional activity whereas in reality there appears to be numerous
levels of peformance and experience. Some times we pray and our prayer is
totally empty of religious feeling or the absence of the heart is its
chief characteristic, other times we sense that it really is a place
where, Insha'Allah, we might meet the power of Allah. And what might that
mean? Obviously it depends on who is doing the praying, his spiritual
condition and the response of Allah.
Wasalaam,
Ilyas
Jeremiah McAuliffe
Salaams,
Um, excuse me for barging in, but doesn't "dhikr" mean "remembering
God" or being "God-conscious"?
I can't believe you guys are fighting over means by which various
people achieve this goal.....
Jeremiah McAuliffe/ali...@city-net.com
***************************************
Visit Dr. Jihad's! Page 'O Heavy Issues
http://www.city-net.com/~alimhaq/miaha.html
GSimp95605
Jeremiah McAuliffe asks:
Um, excuse me for barging in, but doesn't "dhikr" mean "remembering God"
or being "God-conscious"? I can't believe you guys are fighting over means
by which various
people achieve this goal.....
G: You have a point but I think people have been more or less answering
this question at the level on which I asked it.
G: I think we all agree that people should be more God-conscious and be
more mindful of God. But it is a fair question to ask what are the
Islamically permissible or impermissible ways of doing that. It is not
enough to say "I feel this makes me closer to God so it must be halal" For
example, if a Muslim decided to keep the Sabbath, they arguably *would*
become more aware of God. But is it appropriate or permissible for a
Muslim to do so? I doubt it very much.
G: When I asked about "dhikr" I didn't mean the general sense of
remembering God. I meant the specific sense of repeatedly saying (with the
tongue or with the heart) certain words (either individually or in a group
of people)
which is seperate from the other rituals which might be called
"rememberance of God" (e.g. salat, fasting, going to jummah).
Peace
Gilberto
Fouad Haddad
>G: When I asked about "dhikr" I didn't mean the general sense of
>remembering God. I meant the specific sense of repeatedly saying (with the
>tongue or with the heart) certain words (either individually or in a group
>of people)
>which is seperate from the other rituals which might be called
>"rememberance of God" (e.g. salat, fasting, going to jummah).
I hope that it has been shown conclusively enough that loud group dhikr
both cannot be declared impermissible and is rooted in the Sunna of the
Prophet and his Companions. It cannot be declared impermissible because
there is nothing in the Shari`a that declares it so, much on the contrary
there are countless general orders (unspecific as to modalitites of time,
place, and number) to make dhikr; and it its rooted in the Sunna because
of the many hadiths alluding to loud group dhikr, and there is not a
single one even suggesting that it is not allowed, for example: (in brief)
- No group sits together and remembers Allah except the angels
encompass them to the nearest heaven
- Allah has angels that roam the earth in search of those who remember
Allah, and when they find them, they encompass them... And they say
(to Allah) they are praising You and glorifying You...
- (The Prophet to a group of Companions:) By Allah, did nothing else
than the remembrance of Allah prompt you to gather like this?
- If you pass by the groves of Paradise, be sure to graze in them...
These are the gatherings of dhikr. Etcetera.
Al Aab - CNED/W94
zikr according to fundamentlist sunnis (e.g shaykh mohamed abdu, saudi
wahhabis, ansar el sunna el mohemmediyya) is remembrance of allah. almost a
literal translation of the word zikr.
so
zikr is not the sufi/dervish song&dance. that is Heram !
in 1882 egypt, on the eve of the battle of et tell el kebeer
the egyptian nationalist general Orabi, led his troops in zikr.
same night the abaza sherqiyya family betrayed him to the british invador.
most those zikris were slauhtered while asleep & dead tired from the
vigourous zikr contorions.
thereafter, egypt became occupied 4 74 years
till gamal abdel nasser, the southern egyptian nationalist,
kicked the british out. no zikr necessary.
in the mid 1990's, some rebels against iraqi dictator seddam hussein,
took refuge in the karbala shrine of the martyr hussein, mohamed's grandson.
they were shi@a muslims. all for zikr & stuff like zat.
the refugees were machine gunned there.
the only good thing aboout zikr is as a physical/mental excercise.
zikr is exclusively for males.
for peasant egyptian women, the zikr counter part is called "zar".
but the dancer is alone, under the supervision of a coach/tranxlatress/
witch called the "kodia"
the cutest zikr i've ever seen, was in my upper egyptian town.
some sufi low-class galabiyyas were hot at zikr. twitching violently &
chanting them selves into a double trance.
a clique of little street kids, no older than 7,
imitated them.
the kids were the cute set. sans trance.
in toronto, there is at least one little cult
the last i knew about them, in the hippie era, the spoke about zikr.
thei pakistani leader was called aomething baba.
he mixed islan & nonislam
so
black american muslim leader
is not the first, nor last mixer.
almost all non-arab or non-middle east muslims
are mixers :
shi@a/sufi mix,
in indonesia & malay the non-islamic component outweighs the islam part.
i guess you have to have arabic as a mohter tongue to be a sunni.
-
another cute semi-sufi memory :
a joke from the WWII 1940's egypt. some of that era's jokes involve the
allied troops who thronged cairo. ( remember rommel ?)
there was that funeral procession.
muslims were carrying the coffin,
muslim style,
on there tired shoulders,
up the streets and lanes in el Qel@a poor district. of cairo.
they were, fittingly, chanting solemnly :
Howed dayim !
howed dayim !
wela dayim gheir Allah !
=
only He is immortal !
only He is immortal !
no mortal but Allah !
supposedly a click of allied sholdiers were enchanted by that solemn
chanting cum hymn.
they followed tha funeral processin in the heat of summer.
the muslim native followers, sweating & under-nourished ( ration era )
slowed down their pace and voices.
dead tired under the merciless egyptian noon sun.
the chivalrous british troops seized the opportunity,
they took over the coffin, carried it on their shoulders.
and
since the arabic chanting was subsiding to a dead tired whisper/whimper
the gi's
, fittingly, did their feeble best in the way of improvised chanting :
what time !
what time !
ta ra la la
al la la !
chanted away his majesty king george troops marchin up toward the hi
muQettem-mountain cemetry.
boystrously
voigoruously
as if to war
-
at least that was one WWII joke that pretended their was harmony
bet occupier & occupied.
=
al aab