Questions about Shi'ites
A. Qadir
Br. Shoaib wrote
>From: Shoaib A Mian <sm...@andrew.cmu.edu>
>Message-ID: <2cc355...@life.ai.mit.edu>
> I have a few questions concerning the Shi'ites. I am from a strict
>Sunni clan so I really do not have any viewpoints of a Shi'ite. The
>scarce knowledge about the Shi'ite I've gained is from other Sunni
>Muslims, who sometimes are very defensive about Sunni-ism and offensive
>Shi'ism. I'd like to hear from a Shi'ite as well as a Sunni who does
>will not inbibe any prejudice against the Shi'ites.
Stuff deleted
Dear Br. In Islam,
I belong to a Shi'a family, my father is converted MUSLIM (Sunni)
This Muslim (Sunni) and Shi'a (Non-Muslim) debate isn't that simple, becuse
Shi'a usually practice TAQYA (tell lie about your religion), so if any one
ask them any question about their belief they will lie and this staisfy
an ordinary Muslim. Now I tell you basic differences between:
MUSLIM (Sunni) Vs NON-MUSLIM (Shi'a)
1) First of all Muslim have unanimous belief in Kalim'A i.e
LA ILAHA ILLAL LA HO MUHAMMAD-UR-RASOUL-LULLAH
* Non-muslim (Shi'a) add to it
ALIAN WALI ULLAH
Any addition or substraction to Kalima will simply take you out of Islam.
2) Zakat an important pillar of Islam, all muslim have a unanimous belief
on it but Non-Muslaim (Shi'a), as they made doctorin in every aspect of
Islam, so they did here.
Non-Muslim pay Khumus they don't believe strictly on Zakat.
In Pakistan where govt. cut Zakat from Muslaim all Non-Muslim including
shi'a they don't have to pay Zakat because they don't believe in it.
3) Qur'an
If some one don't belivee in just one verse or part of verse of it
he is straigt away out of Islam.
Read the following and make you decision, it will clarify their (Non-Muslim's)
belief about Qura'an.
In the name of Allah the Beneficient the Merciful.
Th Jafari scholars, which is the official sect of the governemnt of Iran,
say that the verses of the Quran are 17,000 verse as stated in the book
of "al-Usul" from "Alkafi" Vol.2 page 634, 1961 edition.
It has reported in "Alkafi", which is considered to be the most trusted
book of hadith for Shia, "No one who claimed that he gathered the Quran
as was revealed by Allah except a liar, and no one gathered the Quran
an memorized it as revealed by Allah, except Ali ban Aby Talib (A.S.)
and the Imams after him (A.S.)" Alkafi, Vol.1, page 228, 1968 Edition.
And the Scholars of Shia, allow their followers to read the Quran which
is in our hands, until the time comes for a saviour to teach them the
real Quran. Look in Alkafi, Vol.2, page 633, 1961 edition.
As for the Sunnah Scholars, they are sure that the Prophet (pbuh) have
gathered the Quran as it is now, in recitation and in protection, and then
Zayed Ibn Thabit gathered it in one book at the time of Abu-Bakr. And at
the time of Othman it was written according to the language of Quraish in
which it was revealed and sent through to all muslim provinces. See
Sahih Albukhari, vol. 6, pages 477-480.
Also Allah (SWT) says " We have, wituout doubt, sent down th message,
and we will surely gaurd it from corruption" Quran (15:9)
And Also Allah Said " Move not thy tongue concerning the (Quran) to make
haste therewith. It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it."
Quran, 75:16-17
Also the Scholars of Islam, consider a KAFER, those who believe that the
Quran is not complete or those who believe it is corrupted. Allah says "
Then is it only a part of the BOOK that ye believe in, and do you reject
the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this
but disgrace in this life? and on the day of judgment they shall be consigned
to the most grievious penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do."
Quran, (2:85).
Dear Muslim brothers, look for yourself in the Quran to find that the
number of verses without the "Basmalah" is 6,263 verse only. So according
to Shia scholars, our Quran is not complete.
Let us ask ourselves, whom should we believe Allah who promised to preserve the
Quran or the scholars of Jafariah?
Note: Some of the scholars of Shia deny the missing of any part or corruption
in the existing Quran. But remember they could be playing Taqyyiah on you.
So please lokk for the references and see that for yourself before making
any Judgment.
Note:
If you want to clarify all these poiints I would suggest you to read
a book "AL KHATOOT UL ARIDA"
Its short comprehensive book with references from Muslim sources and
Non-mulim (Shi'a) source
Your Br. In Islam
Altaf Qadir
P.S.
I didn't mean to offend to any one I spoke the truth, if you want to get
further information please go and read above mentioned book
I won't reply any nasty post.
Mohammad Khan
>In article <2ch7ko$8...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Mohammad Khan <mk...@nyx10.cs.du.edu> wrote:
>>Frankly all I have heard about shiats are stories others have told me, I
>>have never met a person who has come to me and said 'I am shiat and I
>>will clear up all your misconceptions for you about shiats' so whenever I
>>hear something which I consider contradictory or controversial, I must
>>ask. This is my reason for 'crawling out of the woodwork'.
>Three questions:
>[1] What is the definition of a Muslim? i.e. Do you believe that the
>Shia are not Muslim?
One who believes in Allah,
>[2] What should you try to think of your Muslim brother? Should you
>try to think the best possible thing of him? Should you give him the
>benefit of the doubt?
I've been trying to hold the positive additude, but mud is flying over
the net and I don't like all this confusion and hearsay
>[3] What are the
instructions
about how to deal with evil people who >bring you misinformation?
>It does not, or should not, matter how much or how many stories you
>have heard. The truth will not change, and nor will the basic
>principles of Islam or of logic.
Understood, but now I must seperate 'the wheat from the chaff'
so-to-speak and being to hunt down my own misconceptions, which is why I
am encouraging a simple informal discusion
--
|\/| _ |_ _.._ _ ._ _ _. _| |/|_ _.._ mk...@nyx.cs.du.edu
| |(_)| |(_|| | || | |(_|(_| |\| |(_|| | sys...@islam.chi.il.us
Mohammad Khan - P.O. BOX 267818 - Chicago, Il 60626
Sysop: Natl Islamic BBS - (312)274-8136 9600v.32 N81
Shaun Astarabadi
Assalamu 'alaikum
I am not sure if this will comeout on the net, because of some
problems with our system - so I will mail it directly too!
>gwy...@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Basalat Ali Raja) writes:
>>In article <2cc355...@life.ai.mit.edu>,
>>Shoaib A Mian <sm...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>> I have a few questions concerning the Shi'ites. I am from a strict
>>>Sunni clan so I really do not have any viewpoints of a Shi'ite. The
>>>scarce knowledge about the Shi'ite I've gained is from other Sunni
>>>Muslims, who sometimes are very defensive about Sunni-ism and offensive
>>>Shi'ism. I'd like to hear from a Shi'ite as well as a Sunni who does
>>>will not inbibe any prejudice against the Shi'ites.
Fair statement! Please don't despair.
May Allah (swt) help all those who seek knowledge and to find
the truth.
>>Why is it that every time we get into a Sunni-Shia flame war we get
>>hordes of "innocent" questioners crawling out of the woodwork.
Because those who attack others spoil it for everyone else. This
is the job of the moderators, I guess, to screen and bounce a
material that shows no basis for its arguments. The rest of the
decent inquiries should not suffer as a consequence.
>>More importantly, when is this going to stop? Are the moderators
>>going to have to declare another ban on the Sunni-Shia debate? Or
>>are people going to realize that there are betters ways to spend
>>their time than attacking fellow Muslims?
Like I said above, don't allow articles with prejudice and
obvious slander to go through, and we'll be ok! A ban would only
help those who make attacks: this will be their tool to kill
the truth from showing. If every time someone asks a question
about the Shi'a, for instance, and an ignorant replies to the
question that "they are Jews!", you make a ban, then you stopped
the truth.
>Frankly all I have heard about shiats are stories others have told me, I
>have never met a person who has come to me and said 'I am shiat and I
>will clear up all your misconceptions for you about shiats' so whenever I
>hear something which I consider contradictory or controversial, I must
>ask. This is my reason for 'crawling out of the woodwork'.
We have this tool, the News-net, that is only available to a few
muslims in this world. Moreover, these are muslims who are educated
(or in the process) in various sciences - experts in many fields.
Further, they come from different backgrounds and live in many
lands of Allah (swt). Where else can you find this kind of forum
to exchange knowledge (that God loves so much) and learn from each
other? Let us take advantage of it. Dispell what's false!
I rambled on too long! I only wish that these people on the net (us),
would treat this subject like any other in the sciences in an
objective and respectable manner.
"WAllhu waliyul tawfeeq.) (And Allah helps us succeed)
>Are there better ways to spend my time? Of course there are, but it does
>me no good to carry around information in my head and not try to share it
>with the general populace to hear their opinions on the subject.
>Frankly, I'd like to know, whats up with this? this sunni-shia debate?
My brother: Ask, Ask - If you ask to gain knowledge, then may Allah
helps us to fullfil your needs. If you know you are posting to cause
harm to us, then "Allahu La Yuhibbu Aldhalimeen" (Allah does not like
the agressors).
Feel free to email, read fair books, don't be too biased to listen,
it may blind you such that you wont see the truth. My statements are
not directed at any one individual, but to all of us.
Wassalamu 'alaikum
Sincrely,
Abu-Yousif
sh...@dt.wdc.com
Behnam Sadeghi
>Dear Brothers, [and sisters]
>Assalamu-alaikum!
Dear brother, assalamu alaikum.
> I have a few questions concerning the Shi'ites. I am from a strict
>Sunni clan so I really do not have any viewpoints of a Shi'ite.
>The scarce knowledge about the Shi'ite I've gained is from other Sunni
>Muslims, who sometimes are very defensive about Sunni-ism and offensive
>Shi'ism. I'd like to hear from a Shi'ite as well as a Sunni who does
>will not inbibe any prejudice against the Shi'ites.
I am a Shia Muslim and it's a pleasure for me to comment on your questions.
>Q. #1: If you are a Shi'ite, do you HAVE TO whip yourself once a year as
>an apology to the grandsons of Muhammed(peace be upon him)?
The answer is no. A Shia Muslim isn't obligated to whip himself or herself
for any reason.
>Q. #2: If it is NOT a MUST, then can you give me some of the things that
>are unique about Shi'ites. Can anyone list some of the major differences
>between Sunnis and Shi'ites?
Yes. The word "Shia" literally means "partisan" or "supporter" and it
stands for "partisan of Ali." The definition of a Shia is any person
who believes that Ali was the correct person to succeed the Prophet as
the political and spiritual leader of the community. This is the main
thing that distinguishes a Shia Muslim from other Muslims. Then, among
Shias there are different groups and different lines of thoughts on
various issues, much like the Sunni Muslims.
What Shias share with Sunnis is belief in the Merciful and Omnipotent
God, belief in the Prophethood of Muhammad (as the last prophet from
God), and belief in the Holy Qur'an, God's last revelation to
humankind.
>Q. #3: God has specifically quoted that He is MERCIFUL. This means that
>if you committed a sin and if you promise not to commit it again, then
>you are forgiven if you ask for forgiveness. However, many Shi'ite do
>not take this into account and whip themselves every year. Why is that
>so?
The majority of Shias don't whip themselves. Although not a formal
component of Shia rituals, every year most Shias do mourn the slaughter
of Hussain (the Prophet's grandson) at the hand of Yazid. The mourning
may take many forms. The main form is by quiet reflection over the event,
coupled with prayers to God. It may also take a physical form and include
soft symbolic beating of the chest with the hand. Some people use
special whips during a procession, and the movement of all the whips is
synchronized with the rhythm of a mournful song. The whipping is usually
done softly and slowly and is not painful. (Again, none of this is actually
required). Then there some Muslims who actually inflict pain (or injury)
on themselves. In my personal view, this is not in line with the spirit of
the mourning. Certain activities that cause serious personal injury were
made illegal a long time ago in my country (Iran).
By the way, the practices I described are based on my observations in my
country. It may or may not apply to other countries.
>Q. #4: I've seen on TV that when Shi'ites pray, many of them put a black
>rock (in front of them) at the position where their forehead lands on
>it. What is the meaning of that rock?(Sorry for my ignorance about
>Shi'ism).
I understand that this is the result of a legal opinion to the effect that
the prostration (sujud) must take place over earth or something derived
from it (wood, stone, paper, etc. ).
>Q. #5: I was wondering the ratio of the Sunni's converting into Shi'ites
>and vice versa, or can anyone make an intelligent guess? About people
>who convert into Muslim, for example in this country, do they convert
>into Sunni Muslims or Shi'ite Muslims?
On your second question, while I know Muslim converts who are Shias, I think
that at least in the United States the majority of converts to Islam become
Sunni Muslims. This is probably due to the fact that most of them get
acquainted with Islam through meeting Muslims, and the majority of U.S. Muslims
are Sunnis. By the way, the African-American followers of Warith Dean Muhammad
and most other former followers of Malcolm X are Sunni Muslims.
>I will anxiously be waiting for replies. If I offended Shi'ism in any
>way, I apologize. I simply lack knowledge about Shi'ites.
>
>Thank You all!
Best wishes!
Behnam
asia z lerner
>. If every time someone asks a question
>about the Shi'a, for instance, and an ignorant replies to the
>question that "they are Jews!"
It's also a reeeeaaaly bad habit to use an ethnic identity as an
insult. I mean, Jews could very well mind this kind of usage.
Asia
Shaun Astarabadi
>Br. Shoaib wrote
>>From: Shoaib A Mian <sm...@andrew.cmu.edu>
>>Message-ID: <2cc355...@life.ai.mit.edu>
>> I have a few questions concerning the Shi'ites. I am from a strict
>>Sunni clan so I really do not have any viewpoints of a Shi'ite. The
>>scarce knowledge about the Shi'ite I've gained is from other Sunni
>>Muslims, who sometimes are very defensive about Sunni-ism and offensive
>>Shi'ism. I'd like to hear from a Shi'ite as well as a Sunni who does
>>will not inbibe any prejudice against the Shi'ites.
> Stuff deleted
I was hoping a Sunni brother would answer you first. You certainly
don't qualify under what the brother above was describing?!
>Dear Br. In Islam,
> I belong to a Shi'a family, my father is converted MUSLIM (Sunni)
>This Muslim (Sunni) and Shi'a (Non-Muslim) debate isn't that simple, becuse
>Shi'a usually practice TAQYA (tell lie about your religion), so if any one
>ask them any question about their belief they will lie and this staisfy
>an ordinary Muslim. Now I tell you basic differences between:
Brother,
You seem to have so much hate in your heart?! Are you sure you want to
take your personal family problems out on all the Shi'a of the world?
Practically, there is not so much of a problem with your father becomming
a Sunni! There is a problem, however, with ignorance: an ignorant Shii
is not any better than an ignorant Sunni, and vise versa!!
Have some FEAR of ALLAH (awj), and don't condem a people based on some
half truths that you have learned. You will stand accounted on the
day of judgement.
"Taqiya" is something that one 'could' practice (any muslim) to prevent
death or extream persecution. I have no fear from you or anybody else
here. Besides, the Shi'a who are answering you are giving references
to subject matter in Sunni books - go and check yourself! How do you
consider these are lies, I don't know? You are concluding that the
lies must be in your books? Use your brain, a gift that Allah bestowed
on all of us.
> MUSLIM (Sunni) Vs NON-MUSLIM (Shi'a)
^^^^^^^^^^ Insults are not warranted?
>
>1) First of all Muslim have unanimous belief in Kalim'A i.e
For you information "Kalima" in arabic means "word", stop using words
that you don't understand! You are trying to refer to the "Shahada"
below!
>LA ILAHA ILLAL LA HO MUHAMMAD-UR-RASOUL-LULLAH
>* Non-muslim (Shi'a) add to it
> ALIAN WALI ULLAH
As to the subject of "wilaya", read Aya #55 in Surat Al-Maeda: "Innama
WALIyakum ALLAH wa RASOOLAHU wa ALLATHEENA AMANU: allatheena yuqeemouna
al salata wa yutoona al zakata wa hum raki'oun." Tafseer of the aya
will tell you that your "wali" is (1) Allah (awj); (2) Mohammed (s); and
(3) Ali ibn Abi Talib (as). As he was the only one, as the aya defines,
who gave his zakat while praying.
>Any addition or substraction to Kalima will simply take you out of Islam.
Can you give us some meaningful reference here? Do you understand what
these 'arabic' words mean?
You are saying that if one said "La ilaha illa Allah", then he is no
longer a muslim?
>2) Zakat an important pillar of Islam, all muslim have a unanimous belief
>on it but Non-Muslaim (Shi'a), as they made doctorin in every aspect of
>Islam, so they did here.
>Non-Muslim pay Khumus they don't believe strictly on Zakat.
>In Pakistan where govt. cut Zakat from Muslaim all Non-Muslim including
>shi'a they don't have to pay Zakat because they don't believe in it.
For your information, the Shi'a pay KHUMUS (means 1/5 or 20% in arabic)
on all profits, in addition to paying the (~2.5%) ZAKAT on crops, grains,
..etc.
Again I will only give you a Quranic reference, because apparently you
haven not heard of KHUMUS. Since you have not read the Quran, I don't
expect that you have any other books of hadeeth, ..etc.
In [8:41] "And know that whatever thing you gain, a FIFTH of it
is for Allah and for the Apostle and for the near of kin and
the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if you believe in
Allah and in that which We revealed to Our servant, on the day
of distinction, the day on which the two parties met; and Allah
has power over all things."
>3) Qur'an
> If some one don't belivee in just one verse or part of verse of it
>he is straigt away out of Islam.
>It has reported in "Alkafi", which is considered to be the most trusted
>book of hadith for Shia, "No one who claimed that he gathered the Quran
>as was revealed by Allah except a liar, and no one gathered the Quran
>an memorized it as revealed by Allah, except Ali ban Aby Talib (A.S.)
>and the Imams after him (A.S.)" Alkafi, Vol.1, page 228, 1968 Edition.
:
>As for the Sunnah Scholars, they are sure that the Prophet (pbuh) have
>gathered the Quran as it is now, in recitation and in protection, and then
>Zayed Ibn Thabit gathered it in one book at the time of Abu-Bakr. And at
>the time of Othman it was written according to the language of Quraish in
>which it was revealed and sent through to all muslim provinces. See
>Sahih Albukhari, vol. 6, pages 477-480.
You don't even have to be a Sunni scholar to know that the Quran that
we have today does not have the Suras in the order that it was revealed?!
For your information, Al-Fatiha was not revealed first, nor was Surat
Al-Baqara, it was "Iqraa bismi Rabbica...".
It seems that you have not read the posts of the other brothers who
tell you that THE SHI'A don't believe that anything is missing or added
to the Holy Quran!!
Also, that we DON'T consider the Al-Kafi book as an ALL CORRECT (Saheeh)
book, in the same way as Sunnies believe in the Six Sihah - Do you
understand?
>Dear Muslim brothers, look for yourself in the Quran to find that the
>number of verses without the "Basmalah" is 6,263 verse only. So according
>to Shia scholars, our Quran is not complete.
>Let us ask ourselves, whom should we believe Allah who promised to preserve the
>Quran or the scholars of Jafariah?
>Note: Some of the scholars of Shia deny the missing of any part or corruption
> in the existing Quran. But remember they could be playing Taqyyiah on you
> So please lokk for the references and see that for yourself before making
> any Judgment.
Your logic is convoluted, brother! WE are telling you that some of
our books may contain wrong hadeeths of all kinds, and you are telling
us that we are lying to you - "taqiya"?!
The way to judge individual hadeeths/reports is to check their validity
against the Quran - the same one that all of us have -, if it fails the
test then you discard that report. The Sunnies should treat the Sihah
in the same way.
>Note:
>If you want to clarify all these poiints I would suggest you to read
>a book "AL KHATOOT UL ARIDA"
>Its short comprehensive book with references from Muslim sources and
>Non-mulim (Shi'a) source
>Your Br. In Islam
>Altaf Qadir
It is sad that you have based all of your knowledge on one book that
is not written by the Shi'a. Have you stopped to ask youself: why would
someone go out of their way to publish such trash? Is the author a
respected religious scholar? Who would fund and translate such material
so that people like yourself (from Pakistan) would be missinformed?
Wassalam,
Abu-Yousif
sh...@dt.wdc.com
dad...@kuc01.kuniv.edu.kw
A.Q...@massey.ac.nz (A. Qadir) writes:
stuff deleted
>
>Note: Some of the scholars of Shia deny the missing of any part or corruption
> in the existing Quran. But remember they could be playing Taqyyiah on you.
> So please lokk for the references and see that for yourself before making
> any Judgment.
>
>
I don't know that you search for truth or something else. You tell peopl
that wheever they say is lies. We say that the current Quran is complete
and you say that we don't mean that. Are you the one that should judge or
the Allah ? I have never heared from any Shi'a scholar that the Quran is
not complete. Do you mean that this is only a secret among big scholars?
So waht is the use of that. I think you didn't undrestand the meaning
of Taqiya. Taqiya allows a person to lie whenever the life of a moslem is
in danger by an agressor or a Kafer. I don't think this is unique to shi'as.
You are free to claim that we lie, but this is the truth for those who
search for truth.
M. ElRabaa
A. Qadir <A.Q...@massey.ac.nz> wrote:
>say that the verses of the Quran are 17,000 verse as stated in the book
>of "al-Usul" from "Alkafi" Vol.2 page 634, 1961 edition.
>as was revealed by Allah except a liar, and no one gathered the Quran
>an memorized it as revealed by Allah, except Ali ban Aby Talib (A.S.)
>and the Imams after him (A.S.)" Alkafi, Vol.1, page 228, 1968 Edition.
>is in our hands, until the time comes for a saviour to teach them the
>real Quran. Look in Alkafi, Vol.2, page 633, 1961 edition.
Now I'd like to see what shia have to say regarding this post ???
Are you going to call br. Qadir Wahabbi ??? or he does not know
anything about shia ??? or what about the things he quoted from
your books, are they lies or you do not believe in them ...
or are you just going to ignore these ahadith from Al-kafi ???
I thank Allah who guided br. Qadir and his family to his straight
path, may He guide the rest ...
Are you still want to continue arguing in the truth ???
I'd like to remind you and myself, we'ren't doing this to win
or loose an insult or lying match, we're suppose to be doing this
to reach the truth, may Allah guid us to it ...
Also a correction is in order here : br. Qadir might have given the
notion that ALL shia are considered non-muslims ... I'm sure he
did not mean that ... According to most of sunnah scholars only
those who actually curse the sahabah and say these things about their
immams and teach them to people, are considered non-muslims ...
however, the masses that follow them, well Allah knows (Amrohom
ela Allah) ... so it is not right to say All shia are none-muslims,
That is why in a previous posting I answered the original question
that started the debat (Are shia misguided muslims?) by :
Yes, most of them are misguided muslims,
And the rest are just misguided ... (i.e. non-muslims)
For more on why the above is so, pls check Ibn-Tymiahs books ...
subhanak alahoma, wa behamdik, ash-hadu ala ilaha ila anta,
astaghfiruka wa atobo elik,
Muhammad Elrabaa
M. ElRabaa
Shaun Astarabadi <sh...@dt.wdc.com> wrote:
>In soc.religion.islam you write:
>I was hoping a Sunni brother would answer you first. You certainly
>don't qualify under what the brother above was describing?!
A sunni indeed replied !!! A. Qadir is a sunni (Wal hamdu lelah) ..
or you did not catch that in his post ??
Now instead of insulting br. Qadir, why do not you reply to his
points which were supported by ahadith from your Al-Kafi ???
Muhammad Elrabaa
Saida Benlarbi
>In article <2cr62g$s...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>A. Qadir <A.Q...@massey.ac.nz> wrote:
>>say that the verses of the Quran are 17,000 verse as stated in the book
>>of "al-Usul" from "Alkafi" Vol.2 page 634, 1961 edition.
>>book of hadith for Shia, "No one who claimed that he gathered the Quran
>>as was revealed by Allah except a liar, and no one gathered the Quran
>>an memorized it as revealed by Allah, except Ali ban Aby Talib (A.S.)
>>and the Imams after him (A.S.)" Alkafi, Vol.1, page 228, 1968 Edition.
>>And the Scholars of Shia, allow their followers to read the Quran which
>>is in our hands, until the time comes for a saviour to teach them the
>>real Quran. Look in Alkafi, Vol.2, page 633, 1961 edition.
>Now I'd like to see what shia have to say regarding this post ???
>Are you going to call br. Qadir Wahabbi ??? or he does not know
>anything about shia ??? or what about the things he quoted from
>your books, are they lies or you do not believe in them ...
>or are you just going to ignore these ahadith from Al-kafi ???
>I thank Allah who guided br. Qadir and his family to his straight
>path, may He guide the rest ...
>Are you still want to continue arguing in the truth ???
I just could not believe it!!! are you really *muslim scientific* people ???
I am very ashamed and sad for you...and all those who are mis-guided like you.
In mathematics, to prove the truth of an assertion you have to rely on a
validating system of prouf and you can not aclaim that an assertion is true
if you have only some instances that confirm it!!!
The first system of prouf all muslims have is the Qur'an so you have to
validate the above assertions against it. And if you don't see that your
assertions are false, so you have to relearn (if you are really muslim) reading
and understanding the Qur'an!!!!
>I'd like to remind you and myself, we'ren't doing this to win
>or loose an insult or lying match, we're suppose to be doing this
>to reach the truth, may Allah guid us to it ...
May Allah (awj) guid you first and prevent all of us from the "fitnah" that
has killed our unity and still continue doing it!!
>Also a correction is in order here : br. Qadir might have given the
>notion that ALL shia are considered non-muslims ... I'm sure he
>did not mean that ... According to most of sunnah scholars only
>those who actually curse the sahabah and say these things about their
>immams and teach them to people, are considered non-muslims ...
>however, the masses that follow them, well Allah knows (Amrohom
>ela Allah) ... so it is not right to say All shia are none-muslims,
>That is why in a previous posting I answered the original question
>that started the debat (Are shia misguided muslims?) by :
>Yes, most of them are misguided muslims,
>And the rest are just misguided ... (i.e. non-muslims)
I just could not "read" such things!!I am very shocked.
Why do some "pretended muslim" people (from which the one who wrote
"Al-khutoot al-'areedah" or the one above) say on other muslim (Shi'a)
people that they can "alterate" the Qur'an or they authorize "lie" or any
thing against what was said in the unique message all muslim people trust
because it came from the unique god we believe in Allah (awj) and his unique
messenger he told us to trust his prophete Muhamed (saw)?
As'taghfiruka Allahum wa an taiba elaik!!!
Wassalam, Saida
Behnam Sadeghi
>In article <2cr62g$s...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Now I'd like to see what shia have to say regarding this post ???
>... or what about the things he quoted from
>your books, are they lies or you do not believe in them ...
>
>or are you just going to ignore these ahadith from Al-kafi ???
Dear brother,
Salam alaikum.
I think I stated clearly in a previous posting of mine, as did several
other Shia brothers/sisters (such as Kaamran and Kazem) , that there are
certain hadiths in Shi'i collections of hadith (as well as kutub sittah
incl. Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari) which claim incompleteness of the
Qur'an. These particular hadiths in the Shi'i collections are weak hadiths
which Shia scholars consider as spurious. [Even the collector of Usuli Kafi,
al-Kulaini, stated that any hadiths collected by him which contradict the
Qur'an are to be rejected. And the Qur'an states that Allah guards his
revealation from corruption.] As I explained before, 95% of Shias and
all the great Shi'i scholars believe that the Qur'an is complete, without
missing a dot. I even gave a long list of scholars who have affirmed this
explicitly. I don't know what other proof is needed. I'm exhausted!
As I stated in my article, Shias do not accept or reject a given hadith
only on account of the book it appears in. Instead, they follow two
criteria: 1) Evaluation of the isnad (chain of transmission)
2) comparison with the Qur'an. So, just because you find hadith X or Y in
Usuli Kafi doesn't mean that it represents the Shi'i viewpoint. The
view that the Qur'an is incomplete is held by part of a 5% minority of
Shias named the "Ikhbaris."
Again, none of the above information is new. It has been stated and
documented before repeatedly by me and others. I guess the amount of
misconceptions among Muslims is great, and therefore it takes some
repetition to clear up the misunderstandings. Thanks be to God for
giving us this opportunity to clear up such wide-spread anti-Shia
misconceptions. I believe this will lead to greater unity among Muslims.
I have received some very encouraging email from Sunni brothers/sisters on
these issues.
Once some degree of unity and understanding is achieved among Muslims, then
we can begin to deal with some of the great problems that have plagued
the Muslim world. Let's not take up a hobby of _creating_ differences among
us where there is none. On the compeleteness and perfect authenticity
of the Qur'an there is no difference among Muslims.
>Muhammad Elrabaa
May God bless you,
Behnam Sadeghi