Is The Qur'an's Story Of Solomon & Sheba From The Jewish Targum?

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Dr. M S M Saifullah

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Oct 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/28/99
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mytaj...@aol.com (MyTajMahal) writes:

Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:

>>It is not the aim of "MyTajMahal" to show the evidence of the borrowing. He
>>has clearly stated that in his previous post.
>>
>>"The object of my paper was not to offer any proof."
>
>Congratulations where it is due :-)

I thought you were bent on 'showing' that The Qur'an's Story Of Solomon &
Sheba From The Jewish Targum. What happened? All of sudden the position is
reversed. Instead of showing the borrowing who did something else. Instead
of showing that the Qur'anic story of Queen of Sheba and Solomon a legend,
you showed something else. And now comes the sheepish smiles.

>>So, it is a waste of time to ask to do that. And do not expect him to come
>>up and show the differences between the two stories.
>
>Very true - why should I wish to show the 'differences' rather than
>similarities? <smile>.

Exactly, if you had simply showed us the differences between the story, you
game would have been up as soon as it started. It did not have to take D
Rice to point that out and myself to checkmate your 'legendary' tricks.

>I leave it up the the 'Scholars' on SRI to once again parade their academic
>'ingenuity' and knowledge of Jewish 'scholarslip' to show that there is
>ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common between the two accounts.

I thought you had some smart tricks up your sleeve when you posted the
material. Now what happened to your clever tricks? All of a sudden
everything fizzled out, is it not?

Try something better next time.

Wassalam
Saifullah


mar...@vom.com

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Oct 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/28/99
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as-salaamu ^alaykum.

Much of the discussion on topics like this is, well, rather silly.

The Qur'aan describes itself as a reminder, and, when relating some of
its stories, it prefaces the story with a question; "have you heard
the story of Moses?"

Essentially, its purpose was not to provide us with new stories, at
least not in these cases, but to bring up and highlite stories which
were *already* known. In other words, it is understood and assumed
that these stories already had been told; in some cases this was in
the Torah or in other texts, or it might have merely been a verbal
tradition.

I do not think that Thamuwd would have been mentioned if stories of
Thamuwd were not already known to the Arabs.

In general, the Qur'aanic *stories* were not new stories, and even
Qur'aanic style -- in some respects -- was not new; in translation,
some of Isaiah reads very much like the Qur'aan. Does this mean that
the Qur'aan was plagiarized? I think not!

A believer would suggest that the styles are similar because the
source is the same; one who was not a believer but who was not
motivated by hostility might suggest that both styles come from a
state of mind which might be called the prophetic mind, and a concept
of God that was shared.

I like a good story and I'm not particularly concerned *where* it
originated; I heard a Jewish storyteller Sunday and I know I had heard
several of the stories before in non-Jewish contexts (in one case
involving Nasruddin Khoja). Who took the story from whom? Does it
matter? They were great stories!

A man tells me that if I stick my finger in the electric light socket
I will regret it. I reply, "I heard this story from my parents, you're
just trying to pretend that you know something," and then I stick my
finger in the socket....


AbdulraHman Lomax
mar...@vom.com
P.O. Box 690
El Verano, CA 95433
USA


Dr. Christoph Heger

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Oct 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/29/99
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Greetings to all,

Dr. M S M Saifullah's argument in his posting of Tue, 26 Oct 1999
05:40:25 GMT not only is a no-argument, but also touches an item which I
already have dealt with at length in this newsgroup:

> One has simply see the 'evidence' from Islamic sources which the
> Christian missionaries quote. Let me take the example of Waraqa.
> Waraqa was a Christian and cousin of Khadijah. Since Waraqa knew
> Judeo-Christian scriptures, *therefore* he taught Muhammad(P) the
> Judeo-Christian material in the Qur'an. Waraqa never said he taught
> Muhammad(P) neither did Khadijah.

Firstly, there is nothing wrong in refering to Islamic sources in
arguing with Muslims who usually consider them as evidence. So it is not
to be seen how Muslims who usually accept these seera and hadith stories
about Waraqa b. Nawfal as historic truth could argue that Muhammad had
no access to Judea-Christian material.

Secondly, beyond this use of Islamic sources for an argumentum ad
hominem, it is worthwile to use these Islamic sources as long as they
are read with the usual precautions of historical and textual criticism.
I happen to have dealt with exactly the stories about Waraqa in Ibn
Hisham's seera - passages which show an impossible, namely distorted
Arabic. When read critically, they reveal just the opposite of what is
maintained by kind of pious fraud in Islamic tradition: Waraqa was by no
means a supporter of Muhammad's claims to be a prophet, but a stern
adversary of his. You may find my earlier discussions of this item via
DejaNews.

In view of this misrepresentation of Waraqa in Muslim traditional
historiography, I wonder how Dr. Saifullah knows that Waraqa never said
he taught Muhammad. The opposite seems by far more probable.

Kind regards,
Christoph Heger


MyTajMahal

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Oct 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/30/99
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In article <7v8e57$7sv$1...@samba.rahul.net>, mar...@vom.com writes:

>as-salaamu ^alaykum.

>Much of the discussion on topics like this is, well, rather silly.

Greetings Lomax, and to all who seek truth.

Yes, but it bugs some people pretty badly :-)

>The Qur'aan describes itself as a reminder, and, when relating some of
>its stories, it prefaces the story with a question; "have you heard
>the story of Moses?"
>
>Essentially, its purpose was not to provide us with new stories, at
>least not in these cases, but to bring up and highlite stories which
>were *already* known.

I am not a judge of the Arabic - but strange that an all knowing God should ask
such a question as "have you heard the story of Moses?" if the answer was
obvious even to a human.... Rather it looks like the storyteller assumed that
the story was unknown. Normally in English one would say "Have you not heard
the story of Moses?" if the story was already known but simple being brought to
rememberance.

>In other words, it is understood and assumed
>that these stories already had been told; in some cases this was in
>the Torah or in other texts, or it might have merely been a verbal
>tradition.

Yes but I have a question. Do you not believe anything can be of human origin?
Are humans unable to create anything original?
What about the claim that the Qur'an is the eternal uncreated word of God? Are
you now claiming that "these stories" made up by humans in space and time have
now suddenly become 'eternal' and 'uncreated' just by reason of them appearing
in the Qur'an? Sorry for all the questions but I should be interested to know
how you explain this.

In another discussion thread "Re: Qur'an + Idolatry = Bibliolatry" you stated:

> Who says that God's speech is created is an unbeliever, and who says
> that my recitation is uncreated is an idiot.

Lomax


>I do not think that Thamuwd would have been mentioned if stories of
>Thamuwd were not already known to the Arabs.
>
>In general, the Qur'aanic *stories* were not new stories, and even
>Qur'aanic style -- in some respects -- was not new; in translation,
>some of Isaiah reads very much like the Qur'aan. Does this mean that
>the Qur'aan was plagiarized? I think not!

Of course *style* is not conclusive evidence of plagiarism - however a really
good fake copy does need to mimic what might be considered the original. But
using Isaiah as an illustration bears little comparison with the Qur'an on many
levels. There are sections which are prefaced by "The LORD spoke to me"
(Ch8:11) ie. God speaks directly to Isaiah - Isaiah even claimed to have seen
The LORD (Ch6:1) - not an unususal thing, among Prophets, Patriarchs and the
people, as the Hebrew Bible claims. There is really seems little similarity
between the Qur'an and the prophetic writings of the Hebrew Bible as regards
claims to divine inspiration.

>A believer would suggest that the styles are similar because the
>source is the same;

I would question this statement as to me the claims to divine inspiration and
the understanding of the nature of God within the two economies are so
different as to be irreconcilable.

>one who was not a believer but who was not
>motivated by hostility might suggest that both styles come from a
>state of mind which might be called the prophetic mind, and a concept
>of God that was shared.

In the Hebrew Bible there are also recorded the prophecies of False prophets
(eg. Hananiah in Jeremiah 28) and so the Qur'anic claim to divine inspiration,
as a total or global claim for its existence, is quite different to the claims
made in the Hebrew Bible. Therefore I would claim that nothing, in fact, is
actually shared between the two in this respect.

>I like a good story and I'm not particularly concerned *where* it
>originated; I heard a Jewish storyteller Sunday and I know I had heard
>several of the stories before in non-Jewish contexts (in one case
>involving Nasruddin Khoja). Who took the story from whom? Does it
>matter? They were great stories!

But I hope you will see the point of my earlier question as concerns the
'origin' of stories and the claim that they might be eternal and uncreated when
in fact they are of human origin and not divine origin.

>A man tells me that if I stick my finger in the electric light socket
>I will regret it. I reply, "I heard this story from my parents, you're
>just trying to pretend that you know something," and then I stick my
>finger in the socket....

In the UK we have switches which turn the sockets on an off. You've got to
switch on to discover the truth :-)

I'd be interested to hear you further on the question I raised above.

Kind regards
Jameel

http://member.aol.com/crossfires/messiah/god.htm


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