Gabriel.....

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ala...@my-dejanews.com

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Jul 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/21/98
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Al sallam aleikum,

I just read an article written by a Christian who in trying to justify the
existence of Koran and its accuracy has said that Satan had taken the form of
the angel Gabriel and deceived the prophet (pbuh). This was the only way
they could justify it since it became clear to them that the prophet(pbuh) on
his own could not have come up with such a great "work" as the Koran. Now, I
know for a fact that in dreams for example, Satan cannot take the form of the
prophet (pbuh) but in Islam is it also a beleif that it is impossible for
Satan to take the form of the angel Gabriel? under any circumstances?

A Christian friend asked me about this and I would like to give them a reply.

Thank you


Al Amin

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mah...@my-dejanews.com

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Jul 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/23/98
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In article <6p2s3c$88l$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,

ala...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Al sallam aleikum,
>
> I just read an article written by a Christian who in trying to justify the
> existence of Koran and its accuracy has said that Satan had taken the form of
> the angel Gabriel and deceived the prophet (pbuh). This was the only way
> they could justify it since it became clear to them that the prophet(pbuh) on
> his own could not have come up with such a great "work" as the Koran. Now, I
> know for a fact that in dreams for example, Satan cannot take the form of the
> prophet (pbuh) but in Islam is it also a beleif that it is impossible for
> Satan to take the form of the angel Gabriel? under any circumstances?
>
> A Christian friend asked me about this and I would like to give them a reply.
>
> Thank you
>
> Al Amin

Salaam,

Has your friend ever read the Quran? If it is sent by authority other than
Allah we will see many contridictions with truth.

"Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than
GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions."[4:82]

Please tell your friend read the Quran without any prejustice, he will see who
sent the Quran.

What about the mathematical design that God's scriptures have (74:30-31;
46:10;27:30).

Peace,

Mahmut

Muhammad Elrabaa

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Jul 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/23/98
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In article <6p2s3c$88l$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>, <ala...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:

>I just read an article written by a Christian who in trying to justify the
>existence of Koran and its accuracy has said that Satan had taken the form of
>the angel Gabriel and deceived the prophet (pbuh). This was the only way
>they could justify it since it became clear to them that the prophet(pbuh) on

>his own could not have come up with such a great "work" as the Koran...
...

>... but in Islam is it also a beleif that it is impossible for


>Satan to take the form of the angel Gabriel? under any circumstances?

I do not know about that, WHO KNOWS THE appearance of Gabriel anyway?

But let us examine the claim (that Satan inspired the Qur'an) on its own
merit. So according to this claim, Satan ordains good and forbids evil,
Satan wants us to worship Allah alone and not to associate anything or
anyone with Him, wants us to elevate God above everything and only attribute
to Him the things He attribute to Himself. Satan also wants us
to be kind to our parents, fair and just
even if it was against our own selves and even with our enemies, not to
steal, drink, gamble, fornicate, lie, back bite, slander or be arrogant!
Also Satan does not want us to say things with our own tongue and
attribute them to Allah (God). Also Satan wants us to establish prayers (to
Allah and Only to Allah), to give charity, and to believe in ALL of
Allah's messengers (including Jesus alihi assalam)! WOW is this the
Satan Christians believe in?

On the other hand, you find in the Christian Bible (whom Christians
believe is inspired by God), that messengers of God getting drunk,
and having sex with their own daughters!

I ask any sane person, which of the above would be inspired by an
evil person such as Satan?

Muhammad Elrabaa


Jochen Katz

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Jul 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/24/98
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In article <6p81mt$9pu$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
melr...@ptdcs2.ra.intel.com (Muhammad Elrabaa) writes:

} >I just read an article written by a Christian who in trying to justify the
} >existence of Koran and its accuracy has said that Satan had taken the form of
} >the angel Gabriel and deceived the prophet (pbuh). This was the only way
} >they could justify it since it became clear to them that the prophet(pbuh) on
} >his own could not have come up with such a great "work" as the Koran...
} ....
}
} >... but in Islam is it also a beleif that it is impossible for
} >Satan to take the form of the angel Gabriel? under any circumstances?
}
} I do not know about that, WHO KNOWS THE appearance of Gabriel anyway?

Well, there are a number of descriptions in the hadith of the being
Muhammad encountered, but since no description is given in the
Bible, against what do you want to check it for being the real
Gabriel?

And how do you know he can't come in different "forms". In fact,
in the hadith he is described in various forms.

Just to respond to the above question.

IF Satan was impersonating Gabriel, this lying creature would have
no problem to also add to his message a doctrine of "Satan can't
take the form of Gabriel". Such doctrines from the very person
under investigation are of no use. All forgeries pretend to be
the real thing and all forgerers will give you as many reasons
as they can to make you believe their product is the real thing.
Thus, it would not be very useful.

} But let us examine the claim (that Satan inspired the Qur'an) on its own
} merit. So according to this claim, Satan ordains good and forbids evil,

his own version of "good" and "evil" though.

} Satan wants us to worship Allah alone and not to associate anything or
} anyone with Him, wants us to elevate God above everything and only attribute
} to Him the things He attribute to Himself. Satan also wants us
} to be kind to our parents, fair and just
} even if it was against our own selves and even with our enemies, not to
} steal, drink, gamble, fornicate, lie, back bite, slander or be arrogant!
} Also Satan does not want us to say things with our own tongue and
} attribute them to Allah (God). Also Satan wants us to establish prayers (to
} Allah and Only to Allah), to give charity, and to believe in ALL of
} Allah's messengers (including Jesus alihi assalam)! WOW is this the
} Satan Christians believe in?

Satan's main goal is not to make us behave nasty. His main goal
is to keep us for hell and destroy the purposes of God. If he
can keep us from accepting God's message and to go to hell
forever, then he will even tell us to do good things. The
essential message of Christ and his apostles is the atonement
for sin on the cross, his crucifixion and that Jesus was raised
from the dead and is Savior and Lord.

Islam more or less cleverly denies all that and keeps millions
from accepting this essential truth. If it is indeed truth,
then Islam is certainly a very clever lie. You might not agree
that Islam is false, but I hope you can appreciate that IF
the Christian message is right, THEN Islam is a clever deception
keeping more than a billion people today from being saved and
to find peace with God and forgiveness of their sins. Would that
not be a feat worthy of Satan the great enemy? Note that

The most dangerous lie is that
which most closely resembles the truth.

If it would be blatantly obvious that it is a lie,
nobody would fall for it. And Satan is a clever liar.
The nature of deception is that it looks so deceptively
true.

} On the other hand, you find in the Christian Bible (whom Christians
} believe is inspired by God), that messengers of God getting drunk,
} and having sex with their own daughters!
}
} I ask any sane person, which of the above would be inspired by an
} evil person such as Satan?

We can talk about this topic another time, but it is rather
irrelevant to the discussion. If it is true that it happened
then it shouldn't be covered up and the Bible is an honest book
even about the sins of the prophets. Regarding Lot and sex with
his daughters, Mr. Lomax has aptly answered this a long time
ago on this very newsgroup, you might consult it again:

http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=287951408

But I would like to take this occasion to point out that
you might not have a proper understanding of Satan and just
how clever he is.

The rest of this posting is a small excerpt of Walid's account
where he wrote up in detail his results of investigating
Islam and Christianity and what led him to convert from the
first to the latter. You can find it at

http://answering-islam.org/Walid/


May it be of help to you and many.

Jochen Katz


The Devil, Who Is He?

The bottom line is that one of the two (Muslims or Christians) is deceived,
to understand deception one must understand the nature of Satan. The Bible
gives the best explanation about him, and in general he is the most
intelligent, smart, beautiful being God ever made. He deceived 1/3 of the
angels. He deceived Adam and Eve. He can even deceive the very elect. You
stand no chance to his tricks without God and his spirit being in you. He is
the best con artist. He appears as an "Angel of Light". He created all false
theology, as he claims to be God. The Bible describes him to be the false
God of this world, the one who wants to rule the world.

The Quran on the other hand gives some different descriptions about Satan.
The Quran calls him "Iblees" which is a fiery creature "jin", which the
English derived the word "genie" from. Muslims deny the Biblical claim that
the Devil is an angel, one can't ignore the Quranic verse; "And as we told
the Angels to bow down to Adam, All did except Iblees (Satan), refused. He
was one of the jinn" (Al-Kahf:50). One could ask, why would God order the
Angels only to bow then expect Satan who as the Quran declares as being from
the jinn (genie)? That would logically refer to jinn (genie) as fallen
angels and not another creature made from fire as the Quran claims in other
verses.

In the Quran devils are found doing the work of Solomon by Allah's command.
Allah is also found protecting them as declared in the Quran: "And sundry
satans who should dive for him and perform other work beside: and it was We
who guarded them" (Alanbya:82). These devils are also found in the Quran to
be Solomon's messengers: "He said (Solomon),: "Ye Chiefs! which of you can
bring me her throne[queen Sheba's] before they come to me in submission?
Said an `Ifrit, of the Jinn (devils): "I will bring it to thee before thou
rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may
be trusted." Such claims are rejected by Christianity, nowhere in the Bible
are devils used to do any physical work, especially building God's temple,
which God used Solomon and his people, (God's chosen people). (Al-Naml:39).
The most interesting part in the Quran's description of devils is in Surah
Saba:14, were Allah declares: "Then we decreed Solomon's death, nothing
showed them (the devils) that he was dead as the termites gnawed the staff
which supported his corpse. And when it fell, the devils perceived that if
they had known ..." (Saba:16a). Muslim interpreters say that Solomon died
suddenly while he was leaning on his staff. A full year had passed while his
corps was still leaning on his staff. Finally when the termites ate part of
his staff, it broke and Solomon fell to the ground. It wasn't until then,
the devils realized that Solomon was dead. And we ask: What did Solomon's
servants, wives, and army do while Solomon was dead leaning on his staff for
a year? Muslim scholars concluded that demons are stupid beings who's main
job is only to whisper in peoples ears to sin, a description unlike the
Bible's which warn us that demons are fallen angels, able to mix a bunch of
truth with a tiny amount of lies just enough to kill.

...

While all false religions believe that Satan and his devils are simple
beings who promote sin and discord, the Bible reveals them as intelligent
beings who never ceased to introduce Satan's agenda in the real battle
between Satan and God, a battle that is not mentioned in many false
religions. Though we are unaware of this battle, God in the Bible warns:
"We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of this age, against spiritual hosts of
wickedness in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 6:12). The Bible describes
Satan as "The ruler of darkness", "The father of lies", and "The prince of
this world". He imitates to be the real God. Eventually he will manifest
himself in the body of the Antichrist to rule earth for a while. He will be
represented by a false prophet. This false trinity (Satan, Antichrist, False
Prophet), is the false set up by Satan to imitate the True God and seduce
man to worship him, thinking they are following God.

This imitation started from the beginning when Satan exalted himself to be
better than God: "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds, I will make
myself like The Most High". (Isaiah 14:14). The Bible clearly shows that
Satan is a counterfeit, he claims to be God The Most High. If he is doing
that today, through which religious system and to who do you think he is
lying to?

The Bible gives the opposing names to the true God, and attributes them to
the Antichrist. Christ is called "The Truth", while Antichrist is called
"The lie". Christ is called the "Holy One", while Antichrist is called "The
lawless one". Christ is called "The Son of God", while Antichrist is called
"The Son of Perdition". Christ is called "The Mystery of Godliness", while
Antichrist is called "The Mystery of Iniquity". God allows Satan to continue
although He could destroy him. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ will
finally destroy Satan's Son of Perdition (The Antichrist) "by the brightness
of His coming". Satan's main tactic to destroy God's plan is to counterfeit
the biblical prophecies concerning the coming Christ. Over the centuries,
Satan tried to destroy God's plan by burning, banning, and attacking the
Bible and persecuting Christians and Jews. He introduced false doctrines,
false books, and false prophets. Covering God's Truth with lies has been the
major mission for Satan and his demons. Consequently Satan has always failed
in his missions to destroy and conquer since God's plan is indestructible.

God gave many warnings in the Bible concerning Satan and his works:

"Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and
magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of
gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has
been determined shall be done" (Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist's will is his
fathers will (The Father of lies or the Devil), while Christ's will is His
Father's will (The God of Truth). The mystery of God's nature is presented
in the Bible as One God in a Holy Trinity: "Behold O Israel, the Lord your
God is One". The unity of God is supported in both the Old Testament as well
as in the New Testament.

When Elijah (Elias), encountered the prophets of Baal (false prophets),
Elijah stood before the people and cried out "How long halt you between two
opinions? If the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him". 1
Kings 18:21. Elijah won the battle, as he was on the side of God, the false
prophets standing with Satan lost their lives and their souls forever. God
even send fire from heaven, cooked the beef and consumed it. Elijah prayed
like I did "O Lord, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob". God reveals to us the
truth, just ask him and say "O Lord the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
reveal to me your truth", he is faithful and just.


Jochen Katz

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Jul 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/24/98
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In article <6p81ko$9ff$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
mah...@my-dejanews.com writes:

} Has your friend ever read the Quran? If it is sent by authority other than
} Allah we will see many contridictions with truth.
}
} "Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than
} GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions."[4:82]
}
} Please tell your friend read the Quran without any prejustice, he will see who
} sent the Quran.

He may also consult this page listing some Qur'an contradictions:

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

} What about the mathematical design that God's scriptures have (74:30-31;
} 46:10;27:30).

http://www.math.gatech.edu/~jkatz/Religions/Numerics/

should give you some thoughts to chew on in this regard.

May the Lord lead us all to deeper insight into his truth
and obedience to what we know.

Jochen Katz


mar...@vom.com

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Jul 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/24/98
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as-salamu 'alaykum.

mah...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>What about the mathematical design that God's scriptures have (74:30-31;
>46:10;27:30).

Very dangerous. First of all, yes, God has, to be sure, designed his
work according to his intention. But that there is a "mathematical
design" has not been shown. Rashad Khalifa's work was full of errors
and has been extensively discredited, so to use it for dawa is *very*
hazardous.

Further, we do not know the capacities of Satan. Why could not Satan
design a book with mathematical properties?

Khalifa himself acknowledged that, yes, Satan could produce the
mathematical characteristics that he alleged, but his proof that the
Qur'an was not from Satan was that Satan is cursed in the book.

There are better arguments.

Satan is not concerned about curses. One who knows he is cursed by
Allah is not concerned by the curses of men or what might be in a
book.

We know that the Qur'an is from Allah because we recognise the author
in it. This is why we are responsible. If we have no capacity to
recognise what is from God and what is not, then we also have no
responsibility....

But, except for those who are truly without capacity, we *are*
responsible.


AbdulraHman Lomax
mar...@vom.com
P.O. Box 423
Sonoma, CA 95476
USA


AltWay

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Jul 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/24/98
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(Muhammad Elrabaa) wrote:
" But let us examine the claim (that Satan inspired the Qur'an) on its own
merit. So according to this claim ( that the Quran derives from Satan),
Satan ordains good and forbids evil, Satan wants us to worship Allah
alone and not to associate anything or anyone with Him, wants us to
elevate God above everything and only attribute to Him the things He
attribute to Himself. Satan also wants us to be kind to our parents, fair
and just even if it was against our own selves and even with our enemies,
not to steal, drink, gamble, fornicate, lie, back bite, slander or be
arrogant! Also Satan does not want us to say things with our own tongue
and attribute them to Allah (God). Also Satan wants us to establish
prayers (to Allah and Only to Allah), to give charity, and to believe in
ALL of Allah's messengers (including Jesus alihi assalam)! WOW is this
the Satan Christians believe in?

Comment :-

And Satan also wants us to beware of Satan and throw him out.

Jesus was accused of being able to throw out devils because he was from the
Devil. His answer was :-
"And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And
if a house be divided against itself that house cannot stand. And if Satan
rise up against himself and be divided, he cannot stand but has an
end.....all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men and blasphemies
wherewith soever they shall blaspheme, but he that blasphemes against the
Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation"
Mark 3:22-29

The Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of
Prophecy and embodied in Gabriel.

H.S.Aziz

--
_ ___ _ _____________________________________________
|_| | | | | |_| \ / /
| | |_ | |/\| | | | /... For more info Read "The Alternative Way"
_______________________/ ... on www.argonet.co.uk/education/haziz
______________________/ ... ha...@argonet.co.uk

Muhammad Elrabaa

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Jul 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/25/98
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In article <6pb0lo$j5$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
Jochen Katz <jk...@math.gatech.edu> wrote:

>Well, there are a number of descriptions in the hadith of the being
>Muhammad encountered, but since no description is given in the
>Bible, against what do you want to check it for being the real
>Gabriel?

We wont check it against what is in the Bible anyway ...

As for the form of Gebriel (alihi assalam), no one saw him in his
angel form except prophets.

>IF Satan was impersonating Gabriel, this lying creature would have
>no problem to also add to his message a doctrine of "Satan can't
>take the form of Gabriel".

This is circular logic! If you claim the prophet (salla Allahu alihi
wassalam) was lying anyway, then he would not know how Gebriel looks
like anyway, and Satan can come to him in any shape, right? So that
point is mute and useless for the discussion.

>} But let us examine the claim (that Satan inspired the Qur'an) on its own
>} merit. So according to this claim, Satan ordains good and forbids evil,

>his own version of "good" and "evil" though.

Really? What do not you like about what Islam teaches as good? I bet it is the
Oness of God, right? You probably think it is bad to worship the One True
Lord of all. He has to have three persons in one to be a "good" worship!

>} Satan wants us to worship Allah alone and not to associate anything or

>Satan's main goal is not to make us behave nasty.

WOW! So being nasty get you closer to your god? What kind of a god is this?
If people act good, He leaves them to misguidance, but if they are nasty, and
down right dirty, He makes them 'true believers'!

>His main goal
>is to keep us for hell and destroy the purposes of God. If he
>can keep us from accepting God's message and to go to hell
>forever, then he will even tell us to do good things.

You are assuming that doing good things would go to waste! Islam teaches
us that, the more good we do, the closer we get to Allah, God. So if
a non-believer does good, s/he will get closer to belief. Now if someone
does all kind of good for the sake of God, do not you think God would at least
show him/her the way?

Satan never wanted us to be good , nastiness and corruption (including
corruption of belief, like ascribing partners or multi-persons to God)!

>The
>essential message of Christ and his apostles is the atonement
>for sin on the cross, his crucifixion and that Jesus was raised
>from the dead and is Savior and Lord.

So, how many time did Jesus (alihi assalam) tell his followers that he is God,
that he created them, that they shall come back to him, and that he will
judge among them, and that he will cast those who rejected his god-ship to
hell fire, and that he will reward those who worshiped him as God with
Paradise?

The answer is ZERO! It was those who inspired by Satan who made up all this
divinity of Jesus (and the Trinity). Otherwise tell us in Jesus's own words
the Trinity you believe to be the bases of ALL correct belief!

>Islam more or less cleverly denies all that and keeps millions
>from accepting this essential truth. If it is indeed truth,
>then Islam is certainly a very clever lie. You might not agree
>that Islam is false, but I hope you can appreciate that IF
>the Christian message is right, THEN Islam is a clever deception
>keeping more than a billion people today from being saved and
>to find peace with God and forgiveness of their sins. Would that
>not be a feat worthy of Satan the great enemy?

Back to circular logic! Well the same can be said about Christianity!
If Christianity is a lie, then Satan would have deceived even more people,
would not you agree? You do claim that Christians outnumber muslims, right?

The bottom line is, we have to examine the messages and determine which is
correct:

One that claim God is in Three separate persons (i.e. polythism), and that
one of them came to earth, suffered humiliation and death at the hand of his
enemies, left without telling the people, not even once, in very direct and
clear words that 'he is their lord, creator, sustainer, judge or simply God'!
And left it for the people to formulate this doctrine of Trinity three
something hundred years later themselves!

Or one that claim God is One, Unique, Creator and Sustainer of ALL, Nothing
like Him, High is He above any imperfection (like the claim that he needed
a rest after creation!), free from any defect, Most merciful, Oft Forgiving?


>Note that

> The most dangerous lie is that
> which most closely resembles the truth.

WOW! Islam is so different from any and everything else, that if you think it
resembles the Truth, then IT must be the truth!

The Uniqueness of Allah, as taught in Islam, is unmatched by any other religion.
Christians claim God is/in three separate persons, and that his enemies
crossified him!
Both Christians and Jews believe that He needed a rest after creating heavens
and earth! Jews attribute 'mistakes and regrets ' to God.

So truth are you talking about? Islam is the only truth, and does not resemble
any of the corrupted religions

>If it would be blatantly obvious that it is a lie,
>nobody would fall for it. And Satan is a clever liar.
>The nature of deception is that it looks so deceptively
>true.

Not true, there are hundreds of millions of people who believe that cows are
'divine', do you also think this 'resemble' the truth?

What about the hundreds of millions who either worship animals, or believe that
there is no god at all, does that 'resemble' the truth?
May be the truth you believe in (multiple-godheads, human gods, gods who need
resting and do mistakes, or send drunk messengers to teach people about them
...etc.)do you also think this 'resemble' the truth?

> ...


>But I would like to take this occasion to point out that
>you might not have a proper understanding of Satan and just
>how clever he is.

I think you are the one who is too fund and impressed with Satan!

Satan can only deceive us through our arrogance, pride, following of desires,
and rejecting the truth. Other than that, he has no power over those
who worship Allah, with sincerity.

You seem to fear Satan more than God Himself!

>The bottom line is that one of the two (Muslims or Christians) is deceived,
>to understand deception one must understand the nature of Satan. The Bible
>gives the best explanation about him, and in general he is the most
>intelligent, smart, beautiful being God ever made.

...Satan is the most intelligent, smart, beautiful being God ever made!

And you accuse muslims to be deceived by Satan?!

>He deceived 1/3 of the
>angels. He deceived Adam and Eve. He can even deceive the very elect. You
>stand no chance to his tricks without God and his spirit being in you.

God's spirit being in you? this resembles Hinduism and Buddhism, a lotttt!

The rest of circular-logic is ignored!

Muhammad Elrabaa


Asim Mehmood Awan

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Jul 25, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/25/98
to
That was quite a humourous post of our missionary. With this type of
conjecture, and belief system I am sure he's living in mental hell and
insecurity. I seek refuge in Allah from what this person is deluded in.

By the way, Shaytan's objective is to make us nasty. What is nastier than
ascribing partners to Allah, and twisting man into following his desires,
including their own ridiculous belief systems, such as the crucifiction
for our sins motto and "Jesus is God", auzubillah.

Who's being decieved?

"They follow nothing but conjecture."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


"There's a need for the clouds, the wind, the moon, the sun, and the
solar system,
So that you may find a piece of bread and eat it thoughtfully,
Everything has been put in order and obeys commands for your sake
It won't be just, if you do not obey."

Sa'adi, Allah's mercy be upon Him.

Forgetfulness of Allah strikes their hearts dead,
And then their bodies turn into grave for their dead hearts
before they are laid down into the pit,
And their souls feel restless in their bodies,
And so there is no life for them before Ressurection.

(For Ibnul Qayyim (R), Madarijus Salikun)


"O Allah! This is my supplication to You and to accept it is in Your
hands. This is my humble effort [to attract Your favor], but I repose
trust in Your mercy, not in my effort. O Allah! CREATE LIGHT IN MY
HEART, AND LIGHT IN MY GRAVE, AND LIGHT IN MY FRONT, AND LIGHT AT MY BACK,
AND LIGHT AT MY RIGHT, AND LIGHT AT MY LEFT, AND LIGHT ABOVE ME, AND LIGHT
BELOW ME. O ALLAH! CREATE LIGHT IN MY HEARING, AND LIGHT IN MY SIGHT, AND
LIGHT IN MY FLESH, AND LIGHT IN MY BLOOD, AND LIGHT IN MY BONES. O ALLAH!
INCREASE LIGHT FOR ME, AND GRANT LIGHT TO ME, AND LET ME LIVE BY LIGHT.

Above all limitations is the Lord Who has enshroudeth Himself with Honour
and Majesty and adopted the garb and practice of Mercifulness and
Graiousness. Above all limitations is the Lord Who extends His grace to
His bondsmen. Above all limitation is He Whose special attributes are
Majesty and Generosity."

(Portion of Tahajjud Dua of RasullAllah (S)
Tirmidhi)


Indeed, one is reminded of the beautiful story of Seyyidina Abu Bakr
al-Siddiq (RadiAllahu Anhu) who was once overheard weeping profusely while
making dua to Allah Ta'la, and when the listener crept close to hear what
was inducing such flowing tears he heard that Seyyidina Abu Bakr al-Siddiq
(RadiAllahu Anhu) was crying to Allah saying that I wish to donate all my
wealth to RasulAllah (SallAllahu alayhi wa Sallim) but the hand of the
donor is placed above the hand of the recipient, and I am ashamed to put
my hand above his [i.e. RasulAllah (SallAllahu alayhi wa Sallim)'s] so
please [O Allah] make it so that my Beloved RasulAllah (SallAllahu alayhi
wa Sallim) simply treats my wealth as his own, and spends it freely and
completely, so that I may not be placed in the position of a 'donor'.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


mar...@vom.com

unread,
Jul 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/27/98
to
as-salamu 'alaykum.

ala...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>I just read an article written by a Christian who in trying to justify the
>existence of Koran and its accuracy has said that Satan had taken the form of
>the angel Gabriel and deceived the prophet (pbuh).

This is one of the ways to rationalize the existence of the Qur'an and
remain a Christian.

>This was the only way
>they could justify it since it became clear to them that the prophet(pbuh) on
>his own could not have come up with such a great "work" as the Koran.

The use of the third person plural "they" is a bit sloppy here. Nor,
in order to use this rationalization -- or hypothesis, if one prefers
-- is it necessary to conclude first that the Qur'an is a "great
work."

Rather, the idea is simply a way to identify the Qur'an as misguidance
without impugning the sincerity of the Prophet, SAS.

>Now, I
>know for a fact that in dreams for example, Satan cannot take the form of the
>prophet (pbuh) but in Islam is it also a beleif that it is impossible for


>Satan to take the form of the angel Gabriel? under any circumstances?

We should be careful about "what we know for a fact." There is a
tradition, yes, that if the Prophet appears in a dream, it is indeed
him, SAS. But there are lots of questions about the potential meanings
of this tradition, and it is a bit dangerous to refer to it as "a
fact." It is a report, and it may be an authentic report, and if it is
authentic, there still remains the difficulty of what, exactly, it
means for "the Prophet" to appear in a dream. If someone with blue
skin and wild eyes appears in my dream, and in the confusion of my
dream, I think that it was the Prophet, does this mean that it was,
indeed, him? The Prophet made his original statement to his
companions, who knew him, and presumably could recognise him.

Now, we do have descriptions. But the descriptions are mostly fairly
general and could be met by many persons.

So let me cut this short: there is no substitute for taqwa, for
caution.

>A Christian friend asked me about this and I would like to give them a reply.
>
>Thank you

The question is not, of course, new. In fact, the Prophet himself
seems to have had the same question, if the reports are accurate, but
Khadijah, RA, considered the matter and convinced him that he was not
possessed by a devil. But how does this convince *us*?

After all, perhaps the possibility was too easily dismissed. Satan is
perfectly capable of imitating piety in order to plant a more subtle
seed of his poison.

Basically, if the Christian view of Jesus, AS, is correct, then the
conclusion that the Qur'an is a last-ditch Satanic attempt to *at any
cost* divery humanity from the only hope of salvation. Under this
hypothesis, he will give up *everything* in order to prevent us from
accepting Jesus as our Savior. He will even encourage us to do good
works, refrain from evil, occupy ourselves with worship of God, and
all the rest, if only we will deny Jesus. Or, to be more precise and
to distinguish between Christianity and Islam and make this a
Christian view, to deny that Jesus is God incarnate.

So the view really hinges on a belief that Jesus was, indeed, God
incarnate (a'udhu billah), and, not only this, but that the belief in
this is fundamental to salvation.

So here is my answer, as a Muslim. If the view that Jesus was God is
fundamental to salvation, it is strangely obscure in the actual
teachings of Jesus, as reported in the Gospels. There are a few, very
few, verses in the Gospels which can seem to represent a claim of
divinity; even these have other explanations. And there appear to have
been many Christians, in the early days, who did not believe that
Jesus was God.

Jesus definitely said, Follow me. All prophets say this.

So we follow him.

*Where* did he say, "Worship me"?

Our answer to this charge against the Qur'an is simply that the Qur'an
is recognisable as a message from God; the heart knows this, if it has
not been covered by denial. It knows this because it already knows
what is essential about the message.

Now, how do we know that what our heart tells us is not the prompting
of Satan?

Again, my answer: we don't.

We stand in need of guidance from God; there is no substitute for it;
if he does not guide us, we are astray; and if he guides us, there is
no one who can lead us astray. So it is his guidance we seek, his help
that is true help.

But do we think that God will reward patience and caution and good
intention and worship of him with hellfire?

kallaa: man amana billahi wa bilyawmi l-akhiri wa 'amila salihan
fa lahu ajruhu 'inda rabbihi wa la khawfun 'alayhim wa laa hum
yahzanuwn.

no, whoever trusts in god and the last day and does good, for him is
his reward with his lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall
they grieve.

Jochen Katz

unread,
Jul 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/28/98
to
In article <6pdvnf$qrm$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
melr...@ptdcs2.ra.intel.com (Muhammad Elrabaa) writes:

} >Well, there are a number of descriptions in the hadith of the being
} >Muhammad encountered, but since no description is given in the
} >Bible, against what do you want to check it for being the real
} >Gabriel?
}
} We wont check it against what is in the Bible anyway ...

Well, the Qur'an speaks quite a bit about the congruence of
its message with the earlier message and appeals to the earlier
revelation as evidence for its own authenticity. If we want to
take the claims of the Qur'an serious, then looking into the
earlier revelations is an obvious step to take.

} >IF Satan was impersonating Gabriel, this lying creature would have
} >no problem to also add to his message a doctrine of "Satan can't
} >take the form of Gabriel".
}
} This is circular logic! If you claim the prophet (salla Allahu alihi
} wassalam) was lying anyway, then he would not know how Gebriel looks
} like anyway, and Satan can come to him in any shape, right? So that
} point is mute and useless for the discussion.

I think you didn't understand what I said.

I didn't claim in the above that Muhammad lied. I discussed
the hypothesis that "Gabriel" lied to Muhammad and Muhammad
was deceived by it. Muhammad might still be seriously convinced
it is Gabriel and Muhammad's personal integrity would not be
in question through this. It only means that Satan's trick
worked. And in fact, the Muslim traditions tell us that initially
Muhammad was not sure whether his experience in the cave was
from God or from demons.

There is nothing circular about this argument.

} >Satan's main goal is not to make us behave nasty.
}
} WOW! So being nasty get you closer to your god? What kind of a god is this?
} If people act good, He leaves them to misguidance, but if they are nasty, and
} down right dirty, He makes them 'true believers'!

I said none of the above. No need for sarcasm and parody.
I would prefer to discuss this calmly.

} >His main goal
} >is to keep us for hell and destroy the purposes of God. If he
} >can keep us from accepting God's message and to go to hell
} >forever, then he will even tell us to do good things.
}
} You are assuming that doing good things would go to waste! Islam teaches
} us that, the more good we do, the closer we get to Allah, God. So if
} a non-believer does good, s/he will get closer to belief. Now if someone
} does all kind of good for the sake of God, do not you think God would at least
} show him/her the way?

But you agree that some people who did some good in their life
will go to hell nevertheless, for example because they committed
shirk. And there are some truly morally good polytheists. I hope
you are not going to deny this.

They might be "nearer to God" than the morally bad polytheists
but according to the Qur'an, shirk is unforgivable, and so they
end up in hell.

If you agree with this, then there should in principle be no
problem with understanding that Muslims might do some or even
much good in this life and be rejected in the end because they
rejected what was essential in the eyes of God. That is exactly
your argument against the polytheists (including the Christians
in most Muslims' opinion). No matter how much good they do,
as long as they worship Jesus as God, to hell they will go.

And why is God not showing them the way? I think your own
question need to be asked regarding the morally good Christians.
It is not only a question regarding to the morally good Muslims.

Do you have an answer that you think is satisfactory?
Would this same answer not work also the other way round
and answer your own question?

} >The
} >essential message of Christ and his apostles is the atonement
} >for sin on the cross, his crucifixion and that Jesus was raised
} >from the dead and is Savior and Lord.
}
} So, how many time did Jesus (alihi assalam) tell his followers that he is God,
} that he created them, that they shall come back to him, and that he will
} judge among them, and that he will cast those who rejected his god-ship to
} hell fire, and that he will reward those who worshiped him as God with
} Paradise?
}
} The answer is ZERO! It was those who inspired by Satan who made up all this
} divinity of Jesus (and the Trinity). Otherwise tell us in Jesus's own words
} the Trinity you believe to be the bases of ALL correct belief!

But those early Christians were sincere and sought only to follow
God. You mean they could be inspired by Satan despite their
sincerety?

If yes, why would you say this is in principle impossible as
option for Muhammad when you believe it about the early Christians?

} >Islam more or less cleverly denies all that and keeps millions
} >from accepting this essential truth. If it is indeed truth,
} >then Islam is certainly a very clever lie. You might not agree
} >that Islam is false, but I hope you can appreciate that IF
} >the Christian message is right, THEN Islam is a clever deception
} >keeping more than a billion people today from being saved and
} >to find peace with God and forgiveness of their sins. Would that
} >not be a feat worthy of Satan the great enemy?
}
} Back to circular logic!

Nothing circular about it. I have the impression you are not
clear about the definition of the term "circular logic". It does
NOT mean that the same question is one that the other faith has
answer as well. You seem to use it in this respect when you say:

} Well the same can be said about Christianity!
} If Christianity is a lie, then Satan would have deceived even more people,
} would not you agree? You do claim that Christians outnumber muslims, right?

I agree. But it seems that you now agree that this kind of deception
by Satan is possible, since you actually believe he did so regarding
Christianity.

I only wanted to establish that this is a genuine possibility.
Now, after it is one, then the question is: How do we know that
Muhammad was NOT deceived?

After all, the arguments you bring for the Qur'an not being
inspired by Satan holds for the Bible as well. Satan is cursed
or damned in the Bible. The Bible exhorts us to shun evil and
to do good and to worship God alone. These were your criteria.
The Bible fulfills them. But you believe the Bible is not from
God. If two books fulfill the same set of criteria, but one is
from God and the other is not, then obviously, the criteria are
not much good for measuring the divine origin of the book.

I.e. you have actually not answered to the charge.

} >Note that
}
} > The most dangerous lie is that
} > which most closely resembles the truth.
}
} WOW! Islam is so different from any and everything else, that if you think it
} resembles the Truth, then IT must be the truth!

No, most of what Islam says is found in the Bible. I do not
remember to have seen anything genuinely good and new in the
Qur'an that cannot be found in the Bible.

} The rest of circular-logic is ignored!

I recommend that you ask somebody to explain the term
"circular logic" to you. Maybe Mr. Lomax or Imran Razi
can help you in this.

Sincerely,

Jochen Katz

Jochen Katz

unread,
Jul 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/28/98
to
May the peace of the Lord be with you all.

I am glad to see that there is in Mr. Lomax at least one reader
on SRI who agrees in principle with my argument in article
<6pb0lo$j5$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>, and basically gave the same
description of the argument as I did. We obviously disagree
in the evaluation, whether the argument is hypothetical or
describing actual reality, but at least we agree that the
argument is reasonable.

So, I agree with most he wrote, and only want to make a few
comments on his posting.

In article <6pii6g$aic$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
mar...@vom.com writes:

} >This was the only way
} >they could justify it since it became clear to them that the prophet(pbuh) on
} >his own could not have come up with such a great "work" as the Koran.
}
} The use of the third person plural "they" is a bit sloppy here. Nor,
} in order to use this rationalization -- or hypothesis, if one prefers
} -- is it necessary to conclude first that the Qur'an is a "great
} work."

This is indeed not acknowledged universally. And various of my
Christian friends who have long years of interaction with Islam,
whether as missionaries or being themselves converts from Islam,
have differing opinions of it.

And the Qur'an might be "great" in some respects but not so great
in others. What characteristic does "great" refer to? Eloquence?
Historical impact? Moral teachings? Theological truth?

I can admit greatness of the Qur'an in some aspects and still not
be of the opinion that it is from God. And there have been many
other great works in the history of sacred or secular writings.
And impact could be great without the content being true.

Personally I have have not seen conclusive evidence that the
Qur'an is of divine quality. Or even necessarily of superhuman
quality. But superhuman does not imply divine as the topic of
this discussion clarifies.

} The question is not, of course, new. In fact, the Prophet himself
} seems to have had the same question, if the reports are accurate, but
} Khadijah, RA, considered the matter and convinced him that he was not
} possessed by a devil. But how does this convince *us*?

Whether this is convincing to you or not, it certainly is a great
difference to any reports from the Biblical prophets who never
seemed to be in any doubt whether it was God speaking to them
or demons. Muhammad's fear to be demonized is very strange against
that background. And the reasons how Khadijah talked him into
believing it could not be demons are rather questionable.

} After all, perhaps the possibility was too easily dismissed. Satan is
} perfectly capable of imitating piety in order to plant a more subtle
} seed of his poison.

I very much agree, and we see it to this day. Certainly in
some of the sectarian abberations in Christianity and in
various TV evangelistic cults. It is incredible how much
poisonous teaching is on "Christian" TV in the US.

I am sure Mr. Lomax has similar feelings about some of the
Muslim sects or movements around.

} Basically, if the Christian view of Jesus, AS, is correct, then the
} conclusion that the Qur'an is a last-ditch Satanic attempt to *at any
} cost* divery humanity from the only hope of salvation. Under this
} hypothesis, he will give up *everything* in order to prevent us from
} accepting Jesus as our Savior. He will even encourage us to do good
} works, refrain from evil, occupy ourselves with worship of God, and
} all the rest, if only we will deny Jesus. Or, to be more precise and
} to distinguish between Christianity and Islam and make this a
} Christian view, to deny that Jesus is God incarnate.

This is pretty accurate as a description of the argument.
What follows after it is Mr. Lomax' personal reasoning why the
hypothesis is not strong enough in his view and why he does not
think that the Qur'an is such a Satanic effort. This could be an
important and valueable discussion that I would like to engage in
by responding to those arguments one by one. But sadly, I will
leave the country in two days and be for about one month without
internet access. I have to pass this up for this time. Maybe I
can pick it up when I come back. But probably the hot topics have
changed by then.


"Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will
listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me
with all your heart. I will be found by you", declares the Lord.
(Book of the Prophet Jeremiah 29:12-14)


Seek the Lord while he may be found.

Warm regards,

Jochen Katz

AltWay

unread,
Jul 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/28/98
to
In article <6pii6g$aic$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>, mar...@vom.com wrote:
" So here is my answer, as a Muslim. If the view that Jesus was God is
fundamental to salvation, it is strangely obscure in the actual
teachings of Jesus, as reported in the Gospels. There are a few, very
few, verses in the Gospels which can seem to represent a claim of
divinity; even these have other explanations. And there appear to have
been many Christians, in the early days, who did not believe that
Jesus was God.

Comment :-

Indeed, we read :-
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be
forgiven him; but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spiit, it shall
not be forgiven." Luke 12:10

The Holy Spirit is of course within us 32:9

Even the New Testament requires only obedience to God the Father.
John 17:3-6 and Matthew 7:21-23 John 6:38, 7:16, 8:28.

This leads to the belief that the Quran and the words of Jesus in the New
Testament confirm each other but that both contradict the Christian doctrine
about the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity. It is these doctrines which
must be the works of Satan (unless you believe that the New Testament is).

Jochen Katz

unread,
Jul 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM7/29/98
to
In article <6plagq$5rh$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
AltWay <ha...@argonet.co.uk> writes:

} In article <6pii6g$aic$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>, mar...@vom.com wrote:
} " So here is my answer, as a Muslim. If the view that Jesus was God is
} fundamental to salvation, it is strangely obscure in the actual
} teachings of Jesus, as reported in the Gospels. There are a few, very
} few, verses in the Gospels which can seem to represent a claim of
} divinity; even these have other explanations. And there appear to have
} been many Christians, in the early days, who did not believe that
} Jesus was God.

I think there are a lot more than you imagine,
but one sees what one wants to see.

} Comment :-
}
} Indeed, we read :-
} "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be
} forgiven him; but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spiit, it shall
} not be forgiven." Luke 12:10

Not holy "spit" but "spirit". Anyway, the very fact that you
can blaspheme him means he is divine, and that he is personal.
You cannot blaspheme a "thing".

} The Holy Spirit is of course within us 32:9

I don't think that this is the same Spirit that is refered
to. Anyway, here is the Qur'an verse:
Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His Spirit;
and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts.
Small thanks give ye! [32:9]

So, given that the Qur'an gives the name "Holy Spirit" to
Gabriel, does that then mean that everyone of us has a piece
of Gabriel in him?

Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel -
for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will,
a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings
for those who believe, - ... [2:97]

i.e. it is Gabriel who brings the revelation.

Say, the Holy Spirit has brought
the revelation from thy Lord in Truth,
in order to strengthen those who believe,
and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. [16:102]

It is the Holy Spirit who brings revelation.
Holy Spirit = Gabriel, right? Gabriel in all of us??

I don't think that is very orthodox...

} Even the New Testament requires only obedience to God the Father.
} John 17:3-6 and Matthew 7:21-23 John 6:38, 7:16, 8:28.

Nonsense.

Matthew 28:
18 Then Jesus came to them and said,
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. <======
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

There Jesus clearly says to OBEY HIM. Also, read John 14-15 since
the whole two chapters have a lot to say about love and obedience.
And several times Jesus speaks about obedience to him.

} This leads to the belief that the Quran and the words of Jesus in the New
} Testament confirm each other but that both contradict the Christian doctrine
} about the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity. It is these doctrines which
} must be the works of Satan (unless you believe that the New Testament is).

If one selectively chooses one can make the Bible say anything you
desire. But selecting is distorting and that is the work of Satan.

Sincerely,

Jochen Katz

[Sadly, I will not be able to follow up on this argument, since I am
leaving the country tomorrow and willl be gone for a whole month. But
this distortion I couldn't help but respond to anyway.]

Who is Jesus? - http://answering-islam.org/Who/

----
[The Son] is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation. (Colossians 1:15)

The Son is the radiance of God's glory
and the exact representation of his being,
sustaining all things by his powerful word.
(Hebrews 1:3)

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