Question for Ridwaan
Omar Mirza
My Shia friends always tell me that the consensus
among Shia scholars is that the Quran has been preserved and has not
been distorted by anyone. You have said this many times yourself.
Could you then please explain this quote from
Khomeini's "Kashf ul Asrar"? I found it on the google archives. You
never responded to it there when it was posted by G F Haddad. You
responded to many of his posts, in that thred, but then you went
silent when he posted this.
rja...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:9aehpr$3eh$1...@samba.rahul.net...
> The late Ruhullah Khumayni (ar) was a Shi'i, he did author Kashf
> al-Asrar and he did NOT question the
> integrity of the Qur'an. My God are you making statements or just
> posing questions in order to mislead?
"It was easy for the Ashaabs (of Rasulullah - sallAllaahu alaihi
wasallam)
to remove verses from the Holy Quran and deliberately add verses to
it,
in this way forever concealing from the people of the world the true
Quran."
(Kashf al-Asrar by Ruhollah Khomeini, Page 114).
[end of quote from Haddad].
P.S. I am not interested in hearing long quotations of Sunni hadiths
that seem to you to indicate loss of verses in the Quran. Nor am I
intersted in discussing the Sunni position at all. I just want to find
out from a Shia what the consensus of Shia scholars is regarding the
preservation of the Quran. I keep being told that there is a
consensus, but then I read quotes like the above and no Shia even
tries to respond to them. So please clear up my confusion about this
quote from Khomeini. Then there are many other quotes from Shia
scholars who believed in the distortion of the Quran.
rj...@mailandnews.com
I seriously doubt you even have a copy of Kashf al-Asraar or have even
read the book. Do you even know which language it was originally
written in?
Have you ever even seen the book in your life? Please be perfectly
honest with me.
I don't have a copy with me but if you really have the book a copy as
written in its Original Language! please scan the whole page along with
the page before it and the page after it and post it at some url so we
can all take a look and see what it says in context. Don't just dumb
poorly translated quotes that you pulled off from some Wahabi website
bashing the Shi'ah and expect to convince the world that Khomayni
believes the Qur'an has been changed!
What Imam al-Khomeini believed in was Tahreef Ma'nawi, not Tahreef
Lafzhi; Distortion in meaning like what is done with verse 5:55 of the
Qur'an and 33:33 and 42:23 misinterpreting the meaning and distorting
it and misguiding the masses about their real intended meanings. Yes we
believe some muslims of the first generation did that. You may hate
that believe of ours but we have all the evidence from your own books to
prove it.
No one with any sense who has any familiarity with the 12er Shi'ah
Muslims would ever believe that Imam al-Khomeini believed in Tahreef
Lafzhi (Textual Corruption) of the Qur'an.
I doubt that even JF Haddaad has even read the book. There are
Thousands of Megabytes of False Propoganda about the Shi'ah on the
internet.
I have seen pages out there that accuse the 12er Shi'ah of believing it
is permissible for men to have sex with young boys. On the same sites
you will see this claim about Khomayni saying in his book that the
Companions distorted the Qur'an!
The whole preposition is so proposterous and a disgusting lie I hardly
feel it necessary to reply.
I have never met a Shi'i in my life whether it is a scholar or layperson
who believed that the Qur'an has been distorted. I already quoted one
of the Greatest Shi'i scholars of all time, Shaykh al-Suduuq one of the
compilers of the 4 main Shi'ah Collections of Hadeeth proving that The
Shi'ah believe in the same exact Qur'an that the Sunnis believe in.
Please see http://www.geocities.com/ahlulbayt14/saduq.html if you
haven't already read the book chapter 32. Chapter 39 would also be of
great interest to you.
Below I am quoting another Great Shi'i Contemporary Scholar. I wish
you would consider it and please drop the subject
(posted from http://home.swipnet.se/islam/shia-faith.htm with permission
from chapter 21)
The 12er Shi'ah never believed, still don't believe, and they will never
believe in Textual Corruption of the Qur'anic Text.
I am so sorry to disappoint you!
salaam,
Ridwaan
21. Belief in the Qur'an
We believe that the Qur'an was Divinely inspired, and revealed by Allah
on the tongue of His honourable Prophet, making clear everything, an
everlasting miracle. Man is unable to write anything like it because of
its eloquence, clarity, truth and knowledge, and no alteration can be
made to it. The Qur'an we have now is exactly what was sent to the
Prophet, and anyone who claims otherwise is either an evil-doer, a mere
sophist or else a person in error, and all of them have gone astray,
because it is the speech of Allah, and:
Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or from behind. (41;42)
One of the testimonies to the miraculous nature of the Qur'an is that.
as time moves on and the arts and sciences advance, it remains as fresh
and harmonious as ever, its supreme aims and ideals preserved. There can
be no grounds for dispute with it, nor does it contradict true
scientific facts, and there is nothing in it contrary to positive
philosophical thinking. On the contrary, it is the books of scientists
and even the greatest of philosophers, at the pinnacle of learning,
which contain at least a few trivialities and contradictions and even
incorrect assertions. Moreover, with advances in scientific research and
with modern scientific theories, even the greatest philosophers of
Greece, such as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, whom all those who have
come after have recognised as the fathers of science and the masters of
thought, have been shown to have made some errors.
We also believe that we must respect and give dignity to the Glorious
Qur'an, and this both in word and in deed. Therefore, it must not be
defiled intentionally, not even one of its letters, and it must not be
touched by one who is not tahir. It is said in the Qur'an:
None can touch it save the purified. (56;79)
This subject is dealt with in books of Islamic law.
Neither is it permitted to burn it or to be impious towards it by any
behaviour which is deemed to be insulting, such as throwing it, making
it unclean, or putting one's foot on it; nor is it permitted to put it
in a filthy place. If someone intentionally does any of these things or
anything similar, he is not a believer in the Qur'an and its sanctity,
and he is considered to be an unbeliever. In fact he has rejected the
Lord of all the worlds.
http://home.swipnet.se/islam/shia-faith.htm
Mujib
I too was wondering about this passage. I don't think Shaykh Gibril
Haddad would have cited the passage had it not existed.
_Kashf al-Asrar_ seems to have been written in Farsi. I believe it
was Khomein's first work to be published (1934?). I looked for a copy
of the book but could not find one. Can you get a copy, Ridwaan? Or
perhaps you know where a copy can be obtained?
The book seems to have been available in full here:
http://rationalthinking.humanists.net/iran.htm , but the link isn't
working.
Part of the book (in Farsi) is scanned and cited here:
http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/shia_fal.html#The%20Beliefs%20of%20Allamah%20Khomeni,%20the%20Leader%20of%20the%20Iranian%20Revolution
Question 1: Why is the one who insults the Qur'an by throwing it "not
a believer in the Qur'an and its sanctity, and he is considered to be
an unbeliever", yet the who believes the Qur'an has been changed is
only an "evil-doer" or "a person in error"?
Question 2: Shi`is respond, when confronted with these texts of
theirs, that they're scholars are agreed that "the Qur'an is protected
and cannot be lost or changed"; what is meant by "the Qur'an"? Is it
referring to the Qur'an Majid that is sitting on my shelf, or is
referring to a book that is different from that which is sitting on my
shelf?
Allah and His Messenger know best.
Salam
Omar Mirza
> salaam 'alaykum Omar,
>
> I seriously doubt you even have a copy of Kashf al-Asraar or have even
> read the book.
Correct, I have not seen the book, nor have I read it. That is exactly
why I was asking for clarification regarding the book. If I had read
the book, I would have formed my own opinion, and I would not be
starting a thread entitled "Question for Ridwaan".
Do you even know which language it was originally
> written in?
My guess is Arabic.
> Have you ever even seen the book in your life?
No.
Please be perfectly
> honest with me.
I have been honest. I am not so sure that my Shia friends have been
honest with me in the past.
Haddad is normally very careful about the sources he cites, and when
he cited this particular passage, you ceased to reply, even though you
were replying quite regularly and vociferously at that stage and in
that thread. It therefore seemed worthy of further investigation to
me.
You have to understand that in trying to understand Shi'ism, I often
hear Shias saying different things, or presenting matters in one way,
and then in another way. Sometimes I hear outright falsehoods, even in
the context of a Friday khutba, as when a professor I knew well and
trusted claimed that all Sunnis agree with the Shias regarding the
context of revelation of 5:55. In fact, Ibn Kathir states that this
whole story is a weak hadith, and the context of revelation is more
likely to have been to do with Ubada ibn as-Samit. The Shia polemics
are at their worst when they misrepresent the nature of the evidence
found in Sunni sources, or give obviously biased interpretations of
hadiths involving the Companions. So it is understandable for me to
look for further clarification regarding the extremely important topis
of the Shia belief regarding preservation of the Quran.
<snip>
> I have never met a Shi'i in my life whether it is a scholar or layperson
> who believed that the Qur'an has been distorted.
It does not follow that they have never existed, nor does it follow
that they have not been in the majority in the past.
I already quoted one
> of the Greatest Shi'i scholars of all time, Shaykh al-Suduuq one of the
> compilers of the 4 main Shi'ah Collections of Hadeeth proving that The
> Shi'ah believe in the same exact Qur'an that the Sunnis believe in.
I am very happy to hear this, and I really do long to believe it is
true, but sadly, thanks to the blatant misinformation and deception
commonly found among Shia missionaries (not just Shias of course), I
will be in doubt regarding the Shia position until someone can give me
explanations of the various quotations from notable Shia scholars
which Tahseen presented on SRI, and which amply confirm that a belief
in tahreef is far from being as widespread as you would have us
believe. Your only rather weak response to Tahseen's detailed evidence
was that "that those hadiths had to do with distortion of the
meaning", whereas he presented detailed quotes from scholars'
opinions, rather than merely hadiths, to the effect that there was
distortion of the texts.
It is not enough to present the opinions of a few scholars to the
effect that the Quran has been preserved. Of course, I would expect
some Shia scholars to say that, since the task of da'wa is much harder
if one takes up the patently silly view that the Quran has been
distorted. The question is: did the majority of scholars of 12 imam
Shi'ism historically believe this, or not? I am simply not convinced
by the answer so far, and I will continue to raise the issue until I
get some convincing answers.
Here are some further examples
*******************************************************************************
In the earliest Shi'i Tafaseer, which is the source and base for all
Tafseer books, al-Qummi clearly states the belief of the Shi'ites
regarding the authenticity of the Book of Allah saying:
"Therefore, part of the Qur'an is an Abrogator and Abrogated, part is
clear (Muhkam) and part is ambiguous (Mutashabih), part is in the
general context, and part is particularized, part of it was placed
forward and part is placed in the rear, part of it is severed and part
of is connected, part of it is a letter in a place of another, and
part of it is contrary to the manner revealed by Allah"
Tafseer al-Qummi, Introduction, vol.1, p.17
*******************************************************************************
al-Bahrani wrote in his Tafseer al-Burhaan:
Know, that the truth which there is no way around it, because of the
multi-narrations (mutawatir) and other, is that the Qur'an which we
have in our hands today, has suffered some changes after the Messenger
of Allah [pbuh]. That those who collected it after him, have dropped
and deleted many words and verses, and that the protected Qur'an from
such changes and agreeable to the revelation of Allah Ta'ala is the
one which was collected by Ali [as] and guarded until it reached his
son al-Hasan [as] and so on until it ended in the possession of
al-Qa'im (Mahdi) [as] who has it with him today.
Therefore, and in accordance to a clear narration which we will soon
mention, when Allah the Exalted knew, in His perfect pre knowledge,
that such evil deeds will be perpetrated by those who mischief in
Religion, that whenever they see a clear declaration against their
interests but beneficial to him (Ali) and his purified offspring [as],
they will drop it immediately or distort it by changing.
When it was of His perfect Will and comprehensive Subtle, to guard the
issue of al-Imamah and Walayah, and to protect the aspects of the
virtues of him [pbuh] and the Imams [as] in a manner that will be safe
from the mess of the people of wasting and distorting, but at the same
time, keeps to the people of truth the (hidden) meaning and maintain
the charge, He did not contend only with what was clear in His
Glorious Book, but made the overwhelming majority of such declarations
in accordance with the inner meanings and exegetic methods but within
the frame of what the outer revelation leads to. He further alluded to
many of the proofs by way of signaling and expression of signs and
allegories, thus His proofs on the creation is established even after
its dropping by those who dropped them after they were clear in the
best manner.
........ It is very clear and obvious to me in conclusion, the
truthfulness of this theory (i.e the distortion of the Qur'an) after
all the research and examination of the evidences to the point we can
say it is part of the necessary beliefs of the Shi'ite Madhhab, and
that it is one of the major consequences of usurping the Khilafah, so
contemplate on it"
al-Burhaan fee Tafseer al-Qur'an: Sayyid Hashim At-Tubari al-Bahrani,
Introduction: the second premise, volume 1, p.36, last paragraph, p.
49