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Michael

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Apr 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/11/98
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salam all !
Sorry if you have received this before, I'm having some problems sending
mail.

Does anyone here know an internet-site called QSS ?

http://www.qss.org

What do you think about it ?

I read there that music is forbidden in Islam and as a newcommer to Islam,
I would like to get a seccond oppinion on that. Can anybody here point me
to a place in the Quran which states that music is forbidden.

Thanks
Wa'salam


mar...@vom.com

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Apr 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/13/98
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Peace.

"Michael" <tala...@has.dk> wrote:

>I read there that music is forbidden in Islam and as a newcommer to Islam,
>I would like to get a seccond oppinion on that. Can anybody here point me
>to a place in the Quran which states that music is forbidden.

I have never seen any verse of the Qur'an which is explicit on this.
There are verses which might be indirectly applied, for example,
verses about "shameful things," but such a text could never be a
primary evidence.

There are hadith, however, which are more to the point. Nevertheless,
again, no hadith is explicit that "music is forbidden," that I have
seen; in fact, some forms of music are explicitly *approved.* And
others might be seen as *disapproved* or worse. I don't have time to
write in more detail at the moment, but this question is not new in
s.r.i., and one might find more by searching Deja News. Try "music"
and "stringed instruments."

If the Prophet, SAS, forbade music, for example by defining it as
shameful, then it would be forbidden according to most Muslims, and
the Qur'anic evidence for this is the command to obey the Prophet.

But, as I have indicated, whether he forbade it, or some forms of it,
is apparently subject to some controversy. It is unfortunate that some
Muslims will take a matter where there is controversy and assert one
view within the controversy as if this was Islam, no question about
it.

As to those who forbid "music" without making any qualification, ask
them about the drum.


AbdulraHman Lomax
mar...@vom.com
P.O. Box 423
Sonoma, CA 95476
USA


Farid Barkat

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Apr 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/13/98
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On 11 Apr 1998 22:28:04 -0700, "Michael" <tala...@has.dk> wrote:

>I read there that music is forbidden in Islam and as a newcommer to Islam,
>I would like to get a seccond oppinion on that. Can anybody here point me
>to a place in the Quran which states that music is forbidden.

As Salaamu Alaykum Michael Brother in Islam.
-------------------------------------------------
"O ye who believe!
Ask not of things which, if they were made plain unto you,
would trouble you;

but if ye ask of them when the Qur'an is being revealed,
they will be made known unto you.

Allah pardoneth this, for Allah is Forgiving, Clement." (QS. 5:101)
-------------------------------------------------
"but if ye ask of them when the Qur'an is being revealed,
they will be made known unto you."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't see music as "known unto you." in Al Qur'an.
BTW, everything that made us forgetting ALLAH,
can be regarded as "forbidden", anything at all.
Also note the ending attribute:

"Allah pardoneth this, for Allah is Forgiving, Clement."

ALLAH knew us as His creation quite well.
As matter of record, I don't listen to any music,
maybe 1 hour per year.
Thats all I know, in the end ALLAH only knows, and
He might forgive me for all my mistakes or misunderstanding.


Wassalaam
Farid Barkat
http://www.acay.com.au/~fbarkat/


AltWay

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Apr 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/13/98
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In article <6gpjd4$l3g$1...@waltz.rahul.net>, "Michael" <tala...@has.dk>

wrote:
" I read there that music is forbidden in Islam and as a newcommer to
Islam, I would like to get a seccond oppinion on that."

I do not think that music is forbidden as such.
There are all kinds of music, which appeal to the body and make you dance,
appeal to the emotions and feelings, or appeal to the intellect or to the
spirit. Some forms can stimulate the military passions, some is used for
orgies, and some can elevate spiritually.

As in everything else you must choose the good and avoid the bad.

The point about music is that it has powerful effects. It is vibration which
causes resonances within the system and modifies it. Music and poetry can be
regarded in part as the cause of the destruction of most Islamic empires. It
is necessary to be very cautious about it.

Since music tends to lull the rational faculty it can affect either the
lower or the higher faculties. It usually affects the lower since few people
can write or play music of the higher form. Thus in mixed company it leads
to unwholesome results. Music and dance is, therefore, confined within the
family circle.

The Quran when recited may be regarded as music for the soul. And, indeed, a
lot of Islamic art is based on it. There is Islamic devotional music in the
form of Qawali. This does send some people into ecstacy or trance. But
whether this ecstacy has any spiritual developmental value I do not know. I
suspect it is not. Music is also used in Sufi circles for spiritual
purposes, but in a specialised way.

H.S.Aziz

--
_ ___ _ _____________________________________________
|_| | | | | |_| \ / /
| | |_ | |/\| | | | /... For more info Read "The Alternative Way"
_______________________/ ... on www.argonet.co.uk/education/haziz
______________________/ ... ha...@argonet.co.uk

D. Beatty

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Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
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> "Michael" <tala...@has.dk> wrote:
>
> >I read there that music is forbidden in Islam and as a newcommer to Islam,
> >I would like to get a seccond oppinion on that. Can anybody here point me
> >to a place in the Quran which states that music is forbidden.
>
According to many Quranic scholars, the verses which refer to "vain talk"
refer to music as well as gossip, etc., and explain this using reliable
hadith.

However, in any case, it is wise to avoid music which is often used with
lewd behavior in dance clubs, etc. or which effects your moods to the
extent that you may forget guilt for wrongdoing or be tempted to lewd
behavior, etc.

Nadir Masood

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Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
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(mar...@vom.com) writes:
> Peace.

>
> "Michael" <tala...@has.dk> wrote:
>
>>I read there that music is forbidden in Islam and as a newcommer to Islam,
>>I would like to get a seccond oppinion on that. Can anybody here point me
>>to a place in the Quran which states that music is forbidden.

Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari:
that he heard the Prophet saying, "From among my followers there will be
some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of
silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments,
as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a
mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their
sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us
tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the
mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys
and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection."
Sahih Bukhari volume 7 494B

Brothers and sisters, the position of Islam on music is made clear here in
this Hadith.

--
Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error;
whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most
trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all
things.(The Holy Quran 2:256) ~~~Type "go islam" on NCF~~~

Nadir Masood

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Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
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AltWay (ha...@argonet.co.uk) writes:
> In article <6gpjd4$l3g$1...@waltz.rahul.net>, "Michael" <tala...@has.dk>

> wrote:
> " I read there that music is forbidden in Islam and as a newcommer to
> Islam, I would like to get a seccond oppinion on that."
>
> I do not think that music is forbidden as such.

Brother, this is such a confusing statement. How can you say this when
there is a clear hadith on concerning music? Please refrain from passing
fatwas on the internet...whoch could cause confusion among several
brothers and sisters. If you aren't sure, please do not post a reply for a
question without valid hadith backing you up. This goes for every brother
and sister here.

Jazakallah.

Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari:
that he heard the Prophet saying, "From among my followers there will be
some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of
silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments,
as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a
mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their
sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us
tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the
mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys
and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection."

sahih bukhari
volume 7.494B

Maryam Butson

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Apr 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/15/98
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Salaams :)

In regard to whether or not music is forbidden, I would refer you to
the following link:

http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/97/re02-21-97.html (the second
question)

The author's (Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi ) credentials seem quite
pre-eminant and reliable and can be found here:
http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/siddiqi.html

The general page reference is:
http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion.html

Regards and salaams
Maryam

maryamATnetlink.com.au

"Luke, you're going to find that many of
the truths we cling to depend greatly on our
point of view."
- Ben Kenobi, from The Return of the Jedi

***** .oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.
**** Say (O Muhammad to mankind):
**** _|_ "If ye love Allah, follow me;
**** / \ Allah will love you and
**** forgive you your sins. Allah
**** is Forgiving, Merciful."(3:31)
***** .oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.

khadijah chadly

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
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When the Prophet* and his companion Abu Bakr* ran away from Mecca
they were greeted by the people of Medina singing an dplaying the deff
and singing the famous song "Talaa el budro alaina"...
and we know through tradition that at weddings there should be
singing and praising . There is an hadith about this but I haven't the time
right now to look for it. I don't think you should generalize and throw the
baby out with the bathwater. There is halal music and there is haram
music and there is makrouh music."Talaa el budro" is halal music and
whatever is similar to it is also halal.
Haram music affects the bellybutton and downwards.
Makrouh is neutral like some jazz is. It depends on the persons'
intentions.
People with ideas like this are what make other people hate Islam.
From
Yassir who plays halal music on his deff

Altaf Bhimji

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
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AltWay <ha...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

: As in everything else you must choose the good and avoid the bad.

yes this is so...


: The Quran when recited may be regarded as music for the soul. And, indeed, a


: lot of Islamic art is based on it. There is Islamic devotional music in the
: form of Qawali. This does send some people into ecstacy or trance. But
: whether this ecstacy has any spiritual developmental value I do not know. I
: suspect it is not. Music is also used in Sufi circles for spiritual
: purposes, but in a specialised way.

It is intreasting to note that those scholars who do consider music
"haram" acknowledge positive values of music, what is even more
intreasting to note is what they consider to be "positive" - many of these
scholars consider music used during war as fine and well..., but music
used for relaxation (i.e. entertainment, and i mean in the positive sense,
not talking about club hopping ) or such as those you talk about above
they consider "haram". I've given below a sufi view of music (the sufi
haters will probably flame this one -oh well :)). -As usual don't follow
what i say, make your own decisions...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Salam Alaykom Doostan

The folowing is a part from the book "The path of perfection, the spiritual
teachings of Nur Ali Elahi" by Bahram Elahi I did not want to
put the whole chapter on music and zekr in the book but I will put part
of it. I thought it is interesting to know the views of the sufis
on music. Also if anyone can speak farsi look at the books called
Asar Al-Haq, Burhan Al-Haq, Marifat-Al-Ruh and Shahnameyeh-Haqiqat.
These books are all from the same man Nur Ali Elahi.
So far I have read Asar Al-Haq and I found to be a beautiful book.
If you are wondering, yes there are sufis in Madhab Ithna-Ashari.
My own position of Music is that if the music praises god it is good music,
if the music is something like Gangsta Rap or Heavy Medal well I don't
see what purpose it serves :)

from pages 186-187.
Music
"Music is a divine creation, and the soul loves music.
Music was created to express and awaken the spiritual emotions.
...

Music is nourishment for the soul it is also a language, but
a language that is especially beautiful and agreeable.
That is why certain forms of prayers, such as the zekrs, are
accompanied by music. Like all created things, music has its
own stages of unfolding perfection. The depth and power of music's
effects on each being are directly proportional to that creature's
particular degree of spiritual purity. The purest part of each being
is its soul, and every creature that has a soul is sensitive to music
and affected by it.

Each musical note, like every creature, has its own particular properties;
but the effects of those notes also differ according to who is
listening to them. Those different aspects depend on a number of factors:

1. The primordial nature of the listeners' souls, as well as their education,
their physical and mental state, and so on.
2. The particular time and place.
3. The customs, milieu and education of the listeners; the type of music
that attracts them; and also their inner intentions, depending on whatever
they are dominated by their angelic soul or their nafs. For example,
listening to the very same music can give some people the desire to dance,
while others will feel a nostalgia for their past pleasures. Others will
be plunged into a state of spiritual longing and homesickness, or feel
sadness at the thought of those dear to them who have died or are far away.
And still others may experience a euphoric state of lightness and joy.
That is why many people, when they listen to certain forms of sacred music,
still only experience a purely physical form of please.
4. The composer and the person who performs the music. For example,
musicians who possess a certain spiritual rank can evoke in their listeners
whatever effect they desire. This particular factor dominates all the others.
5. The music itself. In ancient times certain doctors used specific
melodies for healing purposes. And certain melodies and musical intervals
are in harmony with the heavenly sounds. In such cases higher spirits come into
play: then the listener has only to ascend on the wings of this this
music and fly away towards heaven. If the person playing an instrument
is spritually powerful, then that person does not simply follow the moldy,
but rather carries it along with.
6. The source of the musical sound, whatever that might be.
Those sources might include, for example, human voices, musical instruments,
animals, the sound of the wind or other natural phenomena. Which may be
audible or inaudible to the physical ear, or the sounds of the metaphysical
world, for those who are spiritually awakened and sensitive to them. Such
sounds may have either a material origin (such as the voices of plants or
minerals that are praising the Creator), or a purely spiritual one (as with
the voices of the invisible beings). We have both a physical ear and
an ear of the soul, and each of them is suitable for hearing a part of all
those sounds and voices.

It is legitimate to use music for purely aesthetic purposes or
for physical relaxation, but it is a shame for it to be used to serve
the passions of the nafs, because music has an inner connection with
the soul,and the soul is in connection with God. When the soul is carried
away by the effect of music, its communion with its source also becomes
more intense. That is why prayer combined with music is more pleasing
and has greater effects."

If you are interested in this book
ISBN 1-85230-392-1

Khoda Negahdar


home page:http://www.wco.com/~altaf/altaf.html
Islamic and social justice articles, poetry, stories, and links
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Br. Suleyman Al-Mujahid

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
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> "Michael" <tala...@has.dk> wrote:
>
> >I read there that music is forbidden in Islam and as a newcommer to Islam,
> >I would like to get a seccond oppinion on that. Can anybody here point me
> >to a place in the Quran which states that music is forbidden.

As Salaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah,
May Allah reward you for your exceptance of Al-Islam, increase your
knowledge and allow your iman to grow. Not long ago, I found myself in
the same position you are now in with regard to music. Being as addicted
as I was at the time, it was very difficult for me to come to terms with
this matter and act appropriately.
There is no need for any of us to pull out specific ahadith nor ayat
from the Qur'an because this is not how we come to decisions in Islam.
If we are not qualified mujtahideen, when we don't know something, we
ask people more knowledgable than ourselves. The founders of the four
madhabs, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Imam Malik, and Imam Hanbal were
in agreement that music is haraam. This consensus is more than
sufficient proof to any Muslim of understanding that music is indeed
haraam. Arguments to the contrary are built upon flimsy, usually
emotional rather than scriptural support, and are therefore not worth
the time it takes to read/listen to them. I hope this helps you in your
pursuit of the truth.

Allah Hafiz,
Br. Suleyman Al-Mujahid

Jeremiah McAuliffe

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
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Salaams,

Can anyone here actually define "music"?
Not too easy!

When we discuss music we ALSO have to discuss things such as art,
communication, entertainment, and how they integrate into the
tawheedian world view.

If you are open to music expressing the thoughts and feelings of a
particular Muslim (me!) check out

Dr. Jihad! and the Intellectual Muslim Guerrillas:

http://www.city-net.com/~alimhaq/music1a.html

When you are ready for a tape of the full sonic experience-- almost
60 minutes of contemporary Muslim aural excitement-- e-mail me. You
pay for the tape and mailing and I'll send it to you. Insha Allah.

Even if you don't like music, go to the page and check out the
lyrics. Especially to "Imaginative Perceptual Possibilities,"-- one
of my favorites and an almost 20 minute conceptual epic! (Its on the
tape.)

If you can't handle the streaming Shockwave look to the bottom of the
page for general MIDI edits of the Shockwave mini-videos and even
more pieces!

Wow!


Always Something New!
Jeremiah McAuliffe/ali...@city-net.com
Visit Dr. Jihad! Page O' Heavy Issues
http://www.city-net.com/~alimhaq/miaha.html

Philosophy, Psychology, Religious Studies.
Original Music & Images. Streaming Shockwave.
Unique and Thought-Provoking!

Craig Paul

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
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In article <6h15l1$a...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, dv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Nadir Masood) writes:
> (mar...@vom.com) writes:
>> Peace.

>>
>> "Michael" <tala...@has.dk> wrote:
>>
>>>I read there that music is forbidden in Islam and as a newcommer to Islam,
>>>I would like to get a seccond oppinion on that. Can anybody here point me
>>>to a place in the Quran which states that music is forbidden.
>
> Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari:
> that he heard the Prophet saying, "From among my followers there will be
> some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of
> silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments,
> as lawful.

> Brothers and sisters, the position of Islam on music is made clear here in
> this Hadith.

Unfortunately the translator(s) did us a disfavor by not accurately
translating the term ma'azif. It was translated here as "musical
instrument" instead of "stringed musical instrument". Yet, other
musical instruments are featured and allowed in other Sahih
al-Bukhari ahadith. Here's my entire musical instrument post
--
These ahadith are from Sahih al Bukhari. The notation in parentheses
are volume #:page from the 9 volume set translated by Dr. Muhammad
Muhsin Khan. This set was previously published by Kazi Publications.
The current set is from Dar al Arabiya, Beirut.
-----
You'll note that the Prophet never banned mizmarah in these ahadith.
You'll see from the hadith from Book 61 that this may mean singing.
We have examples in which Abu Bakr was upset, but the Prophet told him
to leave the musicians and/or singers alone. This "snapshot" was from a
celebration. Note that the hadith from book 59 does not mention a festival
or date.

The 'Eid hadith, should one conclude that they refer to the same
incident, indicate that even BAD singers have a right to sing during 'Eid.

All references in Books 15 & 59 are to mizmarah a type of woodwind instrument
(single piped woodwind resembling an oboe)
Arabic root: za-mim-ra

Book 15 - The Two Festivals (Eids), Chapter 2, Verse 70 (II:37)

Isnad: Ahmad, ibn Wahb, 'Umar, Muhammad bin abd alrahman Alashari, 'Urwa

Narrated Aisha:

Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) came to my house while two girls were
singing beside me the songs of Buath (a story about the war between
the two tribes of the Ansar, the Khazraj and the Aus, before Islam).
The Prophet (p.b.u.h) lay down and turned his face to the other side.
Then Abu Bakr came and spoke to me harshly saying, "Musical
instruments of Satan near the Prophet (p.b.u.h) ?" Allah's Apostle
(p.b.u.h) turned his face towards him and said, "Leave them." When Abu
Bakr became inattentive, I signalled to those girls to go out and they
left. It was the day of 'Id, and the Black people were playing with
shields and spears; so either I requested the Prophet (p.b.u.h) or he
asked me whether I would like to see the display. I replied in the
affirmative. Then the Prophet (p.b.u.h) made me stand behind him and
my cheek was touching his cheek and he was saying, "Carry on! O Bani
Arfida," till I got tired. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) asked me, "Are you
satisfied (Is that sufficient for you)?" I replied in the affirmative
and he told me to leave.

Book 15 - The Two Festivals (Eids), Chapter 2, Verse 72 (II:38)

Isnad: 'Ubid bin 'Usma'aiya, Abu Usamah, Hisham, Abiyh

Singing: (or attempts, at any rate...)

Narrated Aisha:

Abu Bakr came to my house while two small Ansari girls were singing
beside me the stories of the Ansar concerning the Day of Buath. And
they were not singers. Abu Bakr said protestingly, "Musical
instruments of Satan in the house of Allah's Apostle !" It happened on
the 'Id day and Allah's Apostle said, "O Abu Bakr! There is an 'Id for
every nation and this is our 'Id."

Book 15 - The Two Festivals (Eids), Chapter 25, Verse 103 (II:55)

Isnad: Yahya bin Bukir, Alleith, 'Uqil, ibn Shihab

Narrated 'Urwa on the authority of 'Aisha:

On the days of Mina, (11th, 12th, and 13th of Dhul-Hijjah) Abu Bakr
came to her while two young girls were beating the tambourine and the
Prophet was lying covered with his clothes. Abu Bakr scolded them and
the Prophet uncovered his face and said to Abu Bakr, "Leave them, for
these days are the days of 'Id and the days of Mina." 'Aisha further
said, "Once the Prophet was screening me and I was watching the
display of black slaves in the Mosque and ('Umar) scolded them. The
Prophet said, 'Leave them. O Bani Arfida! (carry on), you are safe
(protected)'."

Book 52 - Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad), Chapter 81, Verse 155
(IV:99)

Isnad: Isma'il, ibn Wahb, 'Amru, Abu alaswad, 'Urwah
Singing

Narrated 'Aisha:

Allah's Apostle came to my house while two girls were singing beside
me the songs of Bu'ath (a story about the war between the two tribes
of the Ansar, i.e. Khazraj and Aus, before Islam.) The Prophet
reclined on the bed and turned his face to the other side. Abu Bakr
came and scolded me and said protestingly, "Instrument of Satan in the
presence of Allah's Apostle?" Allah's Apostle turned his face towards
him and said, "Leave them." When Abu Bakr became inattentive, I waved
the two girls to go away and they left. It was the day of 'Id when
negroes used to play with leather shields and spears. Either I
requested Allah's Apostle or he himself asked me whether I would like
to see the display. I replied in the affirmative. Then he let me stand
behind him and my cheek was touching his cheek and he was saying,
"Carry on, O Bani Arfida (i.e. negroes)!" When I got tired, he asked
me if that was enough. I replied in the affirmative and he told me to
leave.

(Book 61 - Virtues of the Qur'an, Chapter 31, Verse 568 (VI:514)

Instrument: Proper translation of mizmarah
Isnad: Muhammad bin Khalaf, Abu Bakr, Abu Yahya alhimani

Narrated Abu Musa:

That the Prophet said to him' "O Abu Musa! You have been given one of
the musical wind-instruments of the family of David .'
(This hadith is a compliment to Abu Musa's voice...))

Book 59 - Book of Drinks, Chapter 6, Verse 494B (VII:345)

The musical instruments talked of are stringed instruments: ma'azif
Arabic root: ain-za-fa

Isnad: Hisham bin 'Umar, S.adaqah bin Khalid, Abd alrahman bin Yazid Jabir,
'Atiya bin Qais Alkilani, 'Abd alrahman bin Ghanm alash'ari

Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari:
that he heard the Prophet saying, "From among my followers there will
be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the
wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of
musical instruments, as lawful. And there will be some people who will
stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd

will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but

they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them
during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will
transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain
so till the Day of Resurrection."

(Note that there is no Qur'anic injunction against wearing silk, nor
musical instruments.)

Other musical instruments in the ahadith:

Book 62 - Book of Wedlock, Chapter 83, Verse 117 (VII:82)

The musical instrument referred to is the mizhar, an ancient Arabic lute.
Note that a translation possibility is given of "tambourine", but this is
not the "duff" that one finds elsewhere translated as "tambourine"...

Arabic root: za-ha-ra

Isnad: Suleiman bin 'abd alRahman and 'Ali bin Hujr, 'Ibsai bin Bunus,
Hisham bin 'Urwa, 'Abd Allah bin 'Urwah, 'Urwah

Narrated 'Aisha:

Eleven women sat (at a place) and promised and contracted that they
would not conceal anything of the news of their husbands. The first
one said, "My husband is like the meat of a lean weak camel which is
kept on the top of a mountain which is neither easy to climb, nor is
the meat fat, so that one might put up with the trouble of fetching
it." The second one said, "I shall not relate my husband's news, for
I fear that I may not be able to finish his story, for if I describe
him, I will mention all his defects and bad traits." The third one
said, "My husband is a tall man; if I describe him (and he hears of
that) he will divorce me, and if I keep quiet, he will neither divorce
me nor treat me as a wife." The fourth one said, "My husband is a
moderate person like the night of Tihama which is neither hot nor
cold. I am neither afraid of him, nor am I discontented with him." The
fifth one said, "My husband, when entering (the house) is a leopard,
and when going out, is a lion. He does not ask about whatever is in
the house." The sixth one said, "If my husband eats. he eats too much
(leaving the dishes empty), and if he drinks he leaves nothing, and if
he sleeps he sleeps alone (away from me) covered in garments and does
not stretch his hands here and there so as to know how I fare (get
along)." The seventh one said, "My husband is a wrong-doer or weak and
foolish. All the defects are present in him. He may injure your head
or your body or may do both." The eighth one said, "My husband is soft
to touch like a rabbit and smells like a Zarnab (a kind of good
smelling grass)." The ninth one said, "My husband is a tall generous
man wearing a long strap for carrying his sword. His ashes are
abundant and his house is near to the people who would easily consult
him." The tenth one said, "My husband is Malik, and what is Malik?
Malik is greater than whatever I say about him. (He is beyond and
above all praises which can come to my mind). Most of his camels are
kept at home (ready to be slaughtered for the guests) and only a few
are taken to the pastures. When the camels hear the sound of the lute
(or the tambourine) they realize that they are going to be slaughtered
for the guests." The eleventh one said, "My husband is Abu Zar and
what is Abu Zar (i.e., what should I say about him)? He has given me
many ornaments and my ears are heavily loaded with them and my arms
have become fat (i.e., I have become fat). And he has pleased me, and
I have become so happy that I feel proud of myself. He found me with
my family who were mere owners of sheep and living in poverty, and
brought me to a respected family having horses and camels and
threshing and purifying grain . Whatever I say, he does not rebuke or
insult me. When I sleep, I sleep till late in the morning, and when I
drink water (or milk), I drink my fill. The mother of Abu Zar and what
may one say in praise of the mother of Abu Zar? Her saddle bags were
always full of provision and her house was spacious. As for the son
of Abu Zar, what may one say of the son of Abu Zar? His bed is as
narrow as an unsheathed sword and an arm of a kid (of four months)
satisfies his hunger. As for the daughter of Abu Zar, she is obedient
to her father and to her mother. She has a fat well-built body and
that arouses the jealousy of her husband's other wife. As for the
(maid) slave girl of Abu Zar, what may one say of the (maid) slavegirl
of Abu Zar? She does not uncover our secrets but keeps them, and does
not waste our provisions and does not leave the rubbish scattered
everywhere in our house." The eleventh lady added, "One day it so
happened that Abu Zar went out at the time when the milk was being
milked from the animals, and he saw a woman who had two sons like two
leopards playing with her two breasts. (On seeing her) he divorced me
and married her. Thereafter I married a noble man who used to ride a
fast tireless horse and keep a spear in his hand. He gave me many
things, and also a pair of every kind of livestock and said, 'Eat (of
this), O Um Zar, and give provision to your relatives." She added,
"Yet, all those things which my second husband gave me could not fill
the smallest utensil of Abu Zar's." 'Aisha then said: Allah's Apostle
said to me, "I am to you as Abu Zar was to his wife Um Zar."

Book 59 - Military Expeditions - Chapter 11, Verse 336 (V:225)

Percussion - duff - tambourine
Arabic root - da-fa-fa
Singing

Isnad: 'Ali, Bishr ibn Almufas.il, Khalid bin D.akwan

Narrated Ar-Rubai bint Muauwidh:

The Prophet came to me after consuming his marriage with me and sat
down on my bed as you (the sub-narrator) are sitting now, and small
girls were beating the tambourine and singing in lamentation of my
father who had been killed on the day of the battle of Badr. Then one
of the girls said, "There is a Prophet amongst us who knows what will
happen tomorrow." The Prophet said (to her)," Do not say this, but go
on saying what you have spoken before."


Book 62 - Wedlock - Chapter 49, Verse 77 (VII:58)

Percussion: duff

Isnad: Musaddad, Bishr ibn almufas.il, Khalid bin D.akwan

Narrated Ar-Rabi':

(the daughter of Muawwidh bin Afra) After the consummation of my
marriage, the Prophet came and sat on my bed as far from me as you are
sitting now, and our little girls started beating the tambourines and
reciting elegiac verses mourning my father who had been killed in the
battle of Badr. One of them said, "Among us is a Prophet who knows
what will happen tomorrow." On that the Prophet said, "Leave this
(saying) and keep on saying the verses which you had been saying
before."

So, we have the use of a lute and tambourines, and a non-Qur'anic prohibition
against stringed instruments. This does leave wind instruments and other
non-stringed instruments.

Note however, again, that there is no Qur'anic injunction against musical
instruments or singing. Allah has not forbidden them. To imply otherwise
indicates that there is important information missing from the Qur'an.
Yet the Prophet (saws) and his Companions have brought you what they
believe is the complete book from Allah.

Noting this take 5:101 from the Qur'an to heart:

"O you who have attained to faith! Do not ask about matters which,
if they were to be made manifest to you [in terms of law], might cause
you hardship; for, if you should ask about them while the Qur'an is being
revealed, they might [indeed] be made manifest [as laws]. God has
absolved [you from any obligation] in this respect: for God is much
forgiving, forbearing."

Jeremiah McAuliffe

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
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Salaams,

dv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Nadir Masood) wrote:

>brothers and sisters. If you aren't sure, please do not post a reply for a
>question without valid hadith backing you up. This goes for every brother
>and sister here.

The issue is not the hadith, but the *interpretation* of the hadith.

For instance, we must understand them as expressing the
socio-cultural milieu of the times-- both of the original times AND
the time when the hadith were compiled.

AltWay

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
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In article <6h15o4$a...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, dv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Nadir Masood) wrote:

Re :- Music


" Brother, this is such a confusing statement. How can you say this when
there is a clear hadith on concerning music? Please refrain from passing
fatwas on the internet...whoch could cause confusion among several

brothers and sisters. If you aren't sure, please do not post a reply for a
question without valid hadith backing you up. This goes for every brother
and sister here."

Reply :-

Thankyou brother Massod for the Hadith. I had not come accross it before.
I generally concentrate my attention on the Quran and there is nothing in
the Quran which forbids music. The Quran takes priority over Hadith.
Examining your Hadith shows that though fornication and alcohol are
forbidden in the Quran, the inclusion of musical instruments (not music)
in the ban appears to be a novelty.

Are you sure that during the life time of the Prophet no music of any kind
was played by his followers? And are you sure why and to whom the Hadith is
addressed? And is the interpretation you give it correct? I say this because
a number of hadith have been presented to us recently by which many muslims
justify and cling tenaciously to their idolatry (as predicted). This can be
done by particularising what has a general meaning. Although generalising
what has a particular meaning is also done.


Since I said "I don't think that music is forbidden as such" you are rather
unfair in calling this FATWA. I pointed out the dangers in my article. The
point in these discussions on the SRI is exactly this that people are unsure
and are seeking knowledge. Any statement made by one can be refuted by
another.

AbdulraHman Lomax

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
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dv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Nadir Masood) wrote:

>Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari:

I have written a comment on this hadith in another thread, spun off
from this thread by Br. Masood.

dervish

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
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Asalaamo Alaykum

Bismillah:

Dear brother,

Not everyone here recognizes Bukhari as an infallible source ya
akhee, myself included. It's better to take evidence from the Quran
itself, as the Quran asks "What book will you heed after this?". The
Quran provides answers to every question, inshAllah, if we *honestly*
seek the answers, and do what it says.
To base one's deen on a stack of stories told and verified by
men (ahadith), is an innovation that the Quran does not sanction. As
such, we should be very suspicious and cautious with ahadith, and rather
focus more on studying the Quran (as opposed to ignoring it, or singing
it).
The concept of replacing the Quran as our Criterion with
ahadith, scholarship, and fiqh is an innovation started with the
Umayyids..an attempt to recreate Islam as something spiteful and
vicious. Real Islam includes love, surrender, forgiveness, and mercy,
and rejects suspicion, harshness, violence, and hate. Note how so many
ahadith conveniently seem to allow 'exceptions' to the values espoused
in al-Quran...like depicting the Prophet(saw) as furious, or Umar as
smashing Aisha's face in with his fist. Many ahadith are shaytanic seeds
of mischief, sown to subvert deen, and make it hateful.
May Allah(swt) guide us all to His True faith, and may we be
granted mercy. Allah Hafiz.

your brother in Islam, and a beggar of grace,
Abd al-Qadir Abdullah

Dr. Christoph Heger

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Apr 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/16/98
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Greetings to all,

"Michael" <tala...@has.dk> in his article <6gpjd4$l3g$1...@waltz.rahul.net> of 11
Apr 1998 asked for a place in the Quran which states that music is forbidden.

The ban on singing and music, indeed, is one of the strangest aspects of Islamic
ethics. Of course, this ban couldn't be accomplished effectively in the Muslim
world. Nevertheless it is often and probably justly maintained that the
overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars considers music to be Haram, for
instance at the web site

http://members.aol.com/TrueIzOne/Music.html.

This ban usually is based on surah 31:6. The context, namely surah 31:2-8 in the
translation and with the comment of Dr. Muhammad Taqi ud-Din Al-Hilali and Dr.
Muhammad Muhsin Khan, is:

2. These are Verses of the Wise Book [the Qur'ân].
3. A guide and a mercy for the Muhsinûn [good­doers].
4. Those who perform As­Salât [Iqamat­as-Salât] and give Zakât and they
have faith in the Hereafter with certainty.
5. Such are on guidance from their Lord, and such are the successful.
6. And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks [i.e. music, singing,
etc.] to mislead [men] from the Path of Allâh without knowledge,
and takes it [the Path of Allâh, the Verses of the Qur'ân] by way of
mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment [in the
Hell-fire].
7. And when Our Verses [of the Qur'ân] are recited to such a one, he
turns away in pride, as if he heard them not, as if there were
deafness in his ear. So announce to him a painful torment.
8. Verily, those who believe [in Islâmic Monotheism] and do righteous
good deeds, for them are Gardens of delight [Paradise].

I pointed to this fact in my posting of 28 Feb 1998 in the thread "Proof of The
Preservation of the Quran" from a special aspect: the destruction of oral
tradition of the Qur'an. I repeat this posting of mine for your convenience:

In an earlier posting of 20 Feb 1998 I argued that it is evident even from the
nowadays Qur'an itself that the censorhip of early-Islam times not only
destroyed a lot of Qur'anic and non-Qur'anic texts, but was especially eager to
destroy oral tradition. For evidence I pointed to the fact that oral tradition
all over the world uses rhyme or metric speach and melody as mnemonic means to
preserve important texts. And I sketched my program to show the traces of
intentional destruction of rhyme and melodies in the Qur'an.

In my posting of 24 Feb 1998 I came to the conclusion:

1) We have in surah 89:6-14 an instance of strophic poetry with rhyme –
extant till now in the Qur'an.

2) We have to use the reconstruction of rhymes as a heuristic principle
to regain a possibly hidden original text.

I will show the force of this heuristic principle in a later posting – thus
showing that, indeed, rhyme schemes have been destroyed intentionally for the
purpose of destroying the reminiscence of a former version of the text. This
will give me the opportunity to share with you the information, which I got by
private communication, that surah 89:6-14 is a "matla'" according to the poetic
theory of Arabic popular strophic poetry – a fact which has some consequences.

But now I am going to deal with the item of destruction of the melodies of
surahs or parts of surahs.

It's not controversial that in early-Islam times there was an embittered quarrel
about the recital of the Qur'an with "alHaan" (qiraa'at bi-l-alHaan) or without
(cf. M. Talbi, La qiraa'a bi-l-alHaan, Arabica 5 (1958), p. 183-190; Paul Kahle,
The Qur'aan and the Arabiyya, Ignace Goldziher Memorial Volume I (1948), p.
163-182; Paul Kahle, The Arabic Readers of the Koran, Journal of Near Eastern
Studies 8 (1949), p. 65-71).

What is meant by the Arabic word "laHn" (pl. "alHaan")?

At least in Jewish-Arabic and Christian-Arabic tradition it meant and means till
now "melody". You can find this meaning of "laHn" even in nowadays
dictionnaries.

The theorists of medieval popular strophic poetry (i.e. poetry in the Arabic
vernacular), namely Ibn Khaldoon, Ibn Sanaa' al Mulk, Hillee etc. maintained it
meant "error in speech", "grammatical mistake", referring to the deviations from
the grammatical rules of Classical Arabic in favour of the use of the
vernacular, and especially speech without correct case endings ('I'raab). And
the different "alHaan" were said to refer to the different measures of mixture
of various metres and mixture of Classical Arabic and the Arabic vernacular(s).

The latter view, however, is indefensible, as will become clearer further below.
Besides "laHn", "alHaan" there a many technical terms of Arabic poetry which
those theorists misinterpreted, too.

The reason for these misinterpretations is not obscure. In the first centuries
of Islam the indisputable fact that there was an Arabic vernacular – as opposed
to the literary language of educated poets – in Muhammad's time, even a popular
poetry in this vernacular, effectively was made taboo. No one should come across
the idea that the Qur'an originally were composed in that vernacular and not in
Classical Arabic. The fundamental misleading was the dogmatized creed that there
was no difference between colloquial and literary language in Arabia of those
times and that the Arabs, especially the Meccans, spoke Classical Arabic. Not
before the 4th or even 5th century of Islamic era, when this creed eventually
was generally believed to reflect the historic truth, popular poetry in an
Arabic vernacular could have a renaissance – thought of as its very beginning.
Due to the total misconception of linguistic and literary history of this poetry
the above mentioned theorists misinterpreted the fundamental technical terms of
this poetry, such as "laHn", "zagal" etc.

The correct understanding of "laHn" as "melody" immediately shows that the above
mentioned quarrel about the recital of the Qur'an with "alHaan" (qiraa'at
bi-l-alHaan) or without is reflected even in the Qur'an. Surah 47:30 gives a
token of identification of some enemies of Allah or Muhammad: "wa
la-ta`rifannahum fee laHni l-qauli", "surely you will know them by the melody
(laHn) of the speech". And surah 8:35 explains why some enemies were so
despicable: "wa maa kaana Salaatuhum `inda l-bayti illaa mukaa'an wa
taSdiyatan", "what was their worship at the House if not whistling and giving
echo." The latter verse makes a mockery of what was typical of the contemporary
Christian service: the singing of hymns (strophical, composed in the vernacular)
in the form of alternate chants (responsories).

By the way, this verse – and its calling the Kaaba "bayt" ("house") – is one
evidence of numerous others that the interior of the Kaaba in Mecca served as a
room for Christian service (church) before the advent of Islam. In Islam the
interior of the Kaaba is not used; insofar there would be no reason to call it a
house.

This enmity against those stiff-necked ones, who by their reminiscence of the
old melodies (and rhymes and metres) preserved the memory of the old variants of
the Qur'an and repudiated the new ones, continued some time. Eventually these
conservatives were eliminated and their concern was trifled with: Henceforth
Islamic orthodoxy maintaines that "laHn" means simply "error in speech",
"grammatical mistake" in the sense of deviations from the grammatical rules of
Classical Arabic.

This assertion is not only contrary to the actual semantic history of this word,
it is inherently contradictary, too: If people in early-Islam times spoke
Classical Arabic and didn't have any Arabic vernacular, as maintained by the
orthodox historiography – how were they able to deviate at all from the
grammatical rules of this Classical Arabic in the direction of a vernacular. How
should they be able to invent different "alHaan" in the alleged sense of
different measures of mingling Classical Arabic and the Arabic vernacular?

This enmity against the adherents of the old manner of recital with melodies
(and rhymes and metres), and by that caretaker of the old variants of the
Qur'an, sheds some light on this strange ban on singing and music.

Again we have the situation in the above quoted passage 31:2-8 of the Qur'an
that there are some "evil-doers", who prefer "idle talks [i.e. music, singing,
etc.] to mislead [men] from the Path of Allâh" and "when Our Verses [of the
Qur'ân] are recited" "turn away in pride", even "by way of mockery". Clearly
these "evil-doers" were those conservatives who by their adherence to the old
way of recital with melodies preserved the reminiscence of the old version and
repudiated the new versions of the Qur'an.

Noteworthy enough, the Arabic word which Muhammad Taqi ud-Din Al-Hilali and
Muhammad Muhsin Khan translated as "idle talks" (verse 6) is "lahwa"
("amusement", "diversion"). It appears rather probable that some play upon
words, namely between "laHn" and "lahwa", was done.

Kind regards,
Christoph Heger

AbdulraHman Lomax

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
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as-salamu 'alaykum.

dv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Nadir Masood) wrote:

>AltWay (ha...@argonet.co.uk) writes:

>> I do not think that music is forbidden as such.

>Brother, this is such a confusing statement.

It was pretty clear to me. It begins "I do not think that" and thus,
unless one wants to assert that Br. AltWay is lying, it is necessarily
true. Is Br. Masood confused to discover that some Muslims do not
think that "music as such" is forbidden?

I remember my first 'Eid al-Fitr as a Muslim, which was in 1971 or so.
The Muslim students at the University of Arizona (many of whom were
old enough to have teenage children) put on a feast, and the subteen
girls got up on the tables and danced. To music. Not one person said,
"this is forbidden." Now, times have changed, for sure. I'm not sure
that they have changed for the better.

>How can you say this when
>there is a clear hadith on concerning music?

We will look at the hadith, as it has been presented and examined many
times in s.r.i. over the years.

>Please refrain from passing
>fatwas on the internet...whoch could cause confusion among several
>brothers and sisters.

Perhaps, unless the brother is himself qualified to "pass a fatwa," he
should follow his own advice. He does not assert the matter as his own
opinion, as did Br. AltWay, but as if it were a clear and known fact
about Islam. In other words, he issued a fatwa.

>If you aren't sure, please do not post a reply for a

>question without valid hadith backing you up. This goes for every brother
>and sister here.

Br. Masood does not own s.r.i., which is a place for everyone who so
desires, Muslim and non-Muslim, to discuss Islam and issues related to
Islam. There is no requirement here to follow any particular form in
discussion; just as students may present their views to a class, even
if the views turn out to be incorrect, we are free to discuss issues
here without first doing the very substantial research necessary to
"pass a fatwa," and also without having the qualifications to do such
a thing.

This cuts both ways: one who is looking for some definitive opinion
from a scholar is advised not to trust every post that appears in
s.r.i. Occasionally the opinions of scholars are posted here, quoted
by others, but I cannot recall a time when a fully-qualified scholar
wrote for s.r.i.

Now, the hadith cited as proof by Br. Masood, I am looking at the text
he presented, not elsewhere.

>Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari:

Which one was it? If this is the actual text of the hadith, this
introductory phrase would admit weakness in the hadith. If, however,
it should have read "and" instead of "or," it would indicate strength.

>that he heard the Prophet saying, "From among my followers there will be
>some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of
>silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments,
>as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a
>mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their
>sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us
>tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the
>mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys
>and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection."

Now, it is clear that the subject of this hadith is not music, music
is only an oblique reference in it. And, in fact, it appears that
music is not actually mentioned in the hadith. Rather, there is a
reference to "musical instruments." What is the word specifically used
in the hadith?

The Prophet has reportedly given, in this hadith, a list of things
which will be considered halal by some among his followers. Note,
first of all, that he is talking about "his followers." Not someone
else. So the people who consider this are, indeed, followers of his.

Had he said precisely what is reported, in translation above, it would
have been clearly self-contradictory, for to consider "illegal sexual
intercourse" as "lawful," would be blatant contradiction. If a scholar
said, "illegal food is lawful," we would have to ask him which he
meant to say: is it illegal or is it lawful? However, the Prophet,
SAS, did not say "illegal sexual intercourse," rather, he was reported
as saying, as I recall, "zina," which might simply be translated as
"fornication."

But much of this commentary so far is really pedantic. More to the
point is that the list is not a list of things which are, in
themselves, haram. There are four items in the list. Zina is, per se,
the most unlawful of what is listed, followed closely by "the drinking
of alcoholic drinks." Then we have "the wearing of silk" and "the use
of musical instruments."

We have already seen, by the way, that this translation adds a great
deal of explanatory wording, wording not present in the hadith itself.
As I recall, "the drinking of alcoholic drinks" was simply "khamr," or
wine, "the wearing of silk" was simply "hariyr," or silk, and I do not
recall the word used for "musical instruments." It was a single kind
of musical instrument.

Now, is silk, in itself, unlawful? Should I forbid my wife to wear it?

In fact, should I forbid myself to wear it? Though I generally avoid
it, it is lawful for me. Do I need to explain why?

Technically, this hadith does not establish a forbidding of "musical
instruments," even less of music in itself. We know, for sure, that
some forms of music are lawful, as are some kinds of musical
instrument, such as the drum, for they were specifically approved by
the Prophet, SAS, according to report judged as sound.

Another problem with the hadith is that the list is connected with
"and," not with "or," and a consequence of this is that the prophecy
contained in the hadith is not fulfilled until a circumstance arises
where *all four* items are considered lawful (and the word used in the
hadith, translated as "will consider ... as lawful," really means "are
considering lawful for themselves;" it's a reflexive form). And this
circumstance is one which resembles a modern institution:

the singles bar, where people drink alcohol, dress in clothing they
consider attractive, and listen and dance to music, all with the goal
in mind of engaging in unmarried sex, i.e., zina.

best wishes.

Abir Majid

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
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AltWay wrote:
> Are you sure that during the life time of the Prophet no music of any kind
> was played by his followers? ...

According to some history books, when the Prophet (PBUH) arrived to
Madina (Hijra), He was greeted at the outskirts with people playing the
hand held drums (daff) and singing "tala'al badru alaina ..." (the full
Moon hath shown forth its light ...)

What I haven't seen addressed here is the opinion on Classical Music
composed in the last 200-300 or so years specifically with the
composer's intention to glorify and praise God through their music.
--
------------------------------------------------
Abir Majid
http://members.tripod.com/~abirm/
http://pages.prodigy.com/prophecy_fulfilled
e-mail: ab...@geocities.com

AbdulraHman Lomax

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
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as-salamu 'alaykum.

khadijah chadly <yas...@pacbell.net> wrote:

> From
>Yassir who plays halal music on his deff

who plays very well, I might add.

It is interesting to note that there were apparently companions of the
Prophet, SAS, who strongly disapproved of music, but the Prophet
himself did not approve of their disapproval! -- according to the
reports I have read....

Nadir Masood

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
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singing is different from music.
without quoting authentic ahadith, please do not give out judgements and
rulings. Allah has clearly said that He would destroy at night those who
think that music is not unlawful.

> People with ideas like this are what make other people hate Islam.

> From
> Yassir who plays halal music on his deff

so be it...if they hate the truth from the hadith. i would rather desicard
all music than rather stay in doubt and incur the wrath of Allah in this
world and the hereafter.
salam

Zak Madden

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
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........ And there are absolutely NO hadiths of Bukhari that can be
considered contradictory despite his decades of pious and thorough
research.......or are there ?

Nadir Masood

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
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AltWay wrote:
>
> In article <6h15o4$a...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, dv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
> (Nadir Masood) wrote:
>
> Re :- Music
> " Brother, this is such a confusing statement. How can you say this when
> there is a clear hadith on concerning music? Please refrain from passing

> fatwas on the internet...whoch could cause confusion among several
> brothers and sisters. If you aren't sure, please do not post a reply for a

> question without valid hadith backing you up. This goes for every brother
> and sister here."
>
> Reply :-
>
> Thankyou brother Massod for the Hadith. I had not come accross it before.
> I generally concentrate my attention on the Quran and there is nothing in

Islam cannot only be picked up from the Quran. We also have to learn
about Islam
from the Sunnah of the Rasul (pbuh) and the hadith of the Rasul (pbuh).
There are some things such as wearing of the Hijab that are not in the
Quran, but
it is an integral part of Islam. Where does it come from..from the
Hadith. Now, brother,
you cannot simply say that you only concetrate on the Quran and
generally ignore hadith.


> the Quran which forbids music. The Quran takes priority over Hadith.

What do you mean? True it takes priority because it is Allah's direct
word,
however, the Prophet (pbuh) never did or say anything without the will
of
Allah. Everything he (pbuh) is for a reason and came from Allah.
Hence, both, I repeat BOTH, are used hand in hand in Islam to make
fatwas and pass laws by the ulema. (Sahih hadith i mean..not dhaif
ahadith)


> Examining your Hadith shows that though fornication and alcohol are
> forbidden in the Quran, the inclusion of musical instruments (not music)
> in the ban appears to be a novelty.

Read one of the follow ups....the brother shows where in the Quran it is
mentioned.
Also, does this mean that since the hijab is not in the Quran, that you
will discard it from Islam??? It's absurd! It comes from the practices
of the
sahabi.


> Are you sure that during the life time of the Prophet no music of any kind

> was played by his followers? And are you sure why and to whom the Hadith is
> addressed? And is the interpretation you give it correct? I say this because
> a number of hadith have been presented to us recently by which many muslims
> justify and cling tenaciously to their idolatry (as predicted). This can be
> done by particularising what has a general meaning. Although generalising
> what has a particular meaning is also done.


Finally, if music wasn't forbidden, wouldn't you ulemas listening to
music?
I'm usually in the company of such people and trust me, there's not a
walkman
in sight. It doesn't make sense for anyone to say music is hallal.
Again, ask an alim..if you want, i will ask for you. And you will get
the reply.

salam


--
**************************************************************************


Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from
error;

whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust-


worthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all

things. (The Holy Quran. 2:256)
**************************************************************************
Nadir Masood dv...@freenet.carleton.ca nma...@chat.carleton.ca

Nadir Masood

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
to

dervish wrote:

> To base one's deen on a stack of stories told and verified by
> men (ahadith), is an innovation that the Quran does not sanction. As
> such, we should be very suspicious and cautious with ahadith, and rather
> focus more on studying the Quran (as opposed to ignoring it, or singing
> it).

read the follow up. this is an outrageous statement where you are
discarding
the ahadith!!!

> The concept of replacing the Quran as our Criterion with

who is replacing? they go hand in hand. Have you ever spoken to
Islamic ulema about this topic? Trust me..they will oppose the point
you are making here!

dervish

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
to

Asalaamo Alaykum!

Bismillah:

Dear Christoph,

Now you know better than to try to pass this tripe off as
legitimate. The Khan and Hilali translation is notorious for its
innovation and misleading conclusions. Every word in the above
parentheses is actually tafsir, not translation... yet they cunningly
bury it in the text so that the casual reader will confuse the opinions
of Drs. Khan & Hilali with the Word of Allah. The original text of this
passage makes NO mention of music...no matter how much Khan and Hilali
think it ought to have.
Use a real Quran please C., and then tell us what it says,
inshAllah. It is an entirely different picture. The Khan & Hilali
"translation" is FULL of such innovations, and unfortunately,
well-meaning converts often confuse the words in parentheses with what
the Quran REALLY says. I can't count the number of wild speculations and
alterations have found in that book. I don't even call it a Quran in
fact, due to its slanted agenda. Scholars who subvert Allah's Word for
gain in this world are specifically discussed in the Quran...and lemme
tell ya I wouldn't want to be in Khan & Hilali's shoes on the Last Day,
inshAllah.
May Allah(swt) guide and bless you, and may He grant you peace.

dervish

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Apr 17, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/17/98
to

Nadir Masood wrote:

> who is replacing? they go hand in hand. Have you ever spoken to
> Islamic ulema about this topic? Trust me..they will oppose the point
> you are making here!

Asalaamo Alaykum!

Bismillah:

Dear Nadir,

May Allah(swt) guide and bless you aziz, and may He lead us all
to the peace, wisdom, and glory that is Himself. May we ever be granted
the courage to lok beyond our own ideas and concepts, and surrender to
the Truth that is al-Haqq.
Here are some relevant ayahs ya akhee, I postulate that we have
no authority to claim that the ahadith are equal to the Quran (go hand
in hand), nor are they even relevant in a *direct* religious sense. I do
concur though, that they have a religious value in context.
No Book or revelation follows the Quran, it is our Criterion,
clearly revealing ALL things, and we are asked what we will believe in
after al-Quran?

Quran 77.050
Then what Message, after that, will they believe in?
(refers to Quran)

Quran 028.002
These are Verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.

Quran 012.111
There is, in their stories, instruction for men endued with
understanding. It is not a tale invented, but a confirmation of what
went before it,- a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a
mercy to any such as believe.
(it says ALL things)

Quran 045.006
YUSUFALI: Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in
Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting)
Allah and His Signs?
PICKTHAL: These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee
(Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents,
will they believe?
SHAKIR: These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you
with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah
and His communications?

Quran 006.114
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it
is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know
full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down
from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
(fully explained, or made clear, are other renderings of this ayah)

Quran 031.006
But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without
knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and
throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating
Penalty.
(purchase idle tales...note that the word used here in Arabic is
explicitly "hadith")

Quran 047.024-25
Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their
hearts locked up by them? Those who turn back as apostates after
Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them
and busied them up with false hopes.

Quran 20.002
We have not sent down the Qur'an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy
distress

Sura 55, ar-Rahman, is relevant here too... a single ayah won't
convey it here though... but note it emphasizes that Allah teaches the
Quran, etc. and Baqara 41-46, wherein it tells us to study Scripture
with Allah's help, with humility, patience, perseverance, and prayer
(hmm, no mention of scholars or tafsir....).

Over and over the Quran says that it is complete, and that it
makes all things clear. We are also challenged, when it asks us what we
will believe in after Allah's Book. The authority for ahadith is based
on the idea of obeying Allah's apostle, and in using him as an example,
but in my opinion that has been taken far too literally... how the
Prophet(saw) urinated is far less important than what he brought
(al-Quran), and how he surrendered his heart to Allah(swt).

In light of these, I was tempted to ignore ahadith entirely.
The Quran certainly forbids that anything to follow could be its equal,
and implicitly suggests that nothing of religious value will follow,
through its statement that it is complete, and that nothing should be
followed after it. Further, we are warned against following idle tales
after the fact... the word hadith is used here...so here we have an
explicit reference warning *against* hadith.
Despite these however, I must admit that I have learned much of
value from ahadith, and that many of them contain an enormous amount of
wisdom, inshAllah. So... I was concerned about throwing the baby out
with the bathwater, as it were. In order to solve this dilemma, I
followed what the Quran said, inshAllah.... I begged Allah(swt) for
guidance on this issue. The resolution I saw came in the form of the
role of ahadith.
For me today, ahadith are useful supplements to deen, like
religious literature, but I do NOT consider them to be religious
doctrine itself...that must be the Quran alone. When we feel that we
don't understand something, or need guidance...we should follow the
Quran's advice, not rush out and ask a scholar, or look up a
hadith...instead, the Quran says to ask Allah(swt) for guidance, beg
Him to teach us the meaning, and show us the answer. If we do this first
inshAllah, and sincerely, the answers will come, as Allah(swt) wills.
Knowledge of ahadith is useful, and we should be familiar with
them, but with the caveat that first they are the words of men, and
despite pre-cautions, are subject to error, and secondly, that they are
not Allah's Word, and therefore not our Scripture. Most ahadith tend to
be isolated excerpts of what someone overheard... most do not provide a
clear picture of the circumstances under which they were uttered, or for
what purpose, and are therefore of limited value.
The main danger I see in following ahadith is that they tend to
be used to provide exceptions to Allah's Word. For example, the Quran
may be clear on a certain issue, yet ahadith will appear that seem to
limit its meaning, or provide evidence that there are exceptions...
ahadith that depict the Prophet killing civilians, making exceptions in
shari'a, getting furious etc, or ahadith that show the sahaba in a
negative light..like the one wherein Umar smashes Aisha's face in with
his fist...these seem to justify sin, or create exceptions to clear
Quranic ideas...this is where the fitnah comes in. Ahadith water down
or weaken the message of al-Quran, if they are regarded as a direct part
of the deen.
So, I study ahadith, and I learn from them, but I do not
"follow" them, inshAllah. They do not dictate Islam, but rather offer
examples of applied Islam, under certain circumstances. Also ahadith
paint a certain picture, when taken as a whole, helps us understand
things. There are also distinct differences between the words 'true',
'valid' and 'authentic'. A sahih hadith is authentic...meaning it was
actually said. That does not mean it was 'true' even if the narrator
believed himself to be telling the truth. Ask five witnesses to describe
a car accident, and you will get my drift inshAllah.
So a sahih hadith, may not be 'true', even though it is
'authentic'. Likewise, a sahih hadith that *is* true, may not be valid.
We must know why something was done, and under what circumstances, in
order to know its relevance and meaning. A casual witness may see
something happen, but if they don't know why its happening, the report
will be irrelevant. The witness doesn't report why things are happening
the way they are...but rather reports a sequence of events, and the
events are not repeatable...neithere them or their consequences. We *do*
learn from them, if between the lines we learn why things were done as
they were. So, we see that even a hadith that is both true and
authentic, may not be valid, if it is not in the proper context.
So, ahadith for me are only an indirect part of deen...I learn
from them, but do not apply them except with caution, and I regard NONE
of them as a vital part of deen. Even the ahadith Qudsi, which while I
follow them, they are not Allah's word per se...they are second-hand
reports of what is purported to be Allah's Word....the tales of men,
and therefore subject to error. Note that nowhere is it claimed that the
ahadith are protected from forgery, innovation, or even that they
are true or valid in the first place. We are left to our own
speculations, inshAllah, regarding their reliability or utility. Also
for me, ahadith have no role in shari'a or fiqh. This view of ahadith
also leads me to reject both the Sunni and Shi'a mainstream...I locate
myself somewhere between the two, but independent of both.
In closing ya akhee, I wish to reiterate that the above views
are my own, that I have sought through prayer and struggle...they are
what they are, and subject to errors and misunderstanding on my part.
Nevertheless, if there is any merit therein, it is from Allah(swt), and
if there are mistakes, then be assured that they are my own. Rather
than trust my words, I would ask you to beg Allah(swt) for guidance on
this issue yourself, and see what comes to you, in the form of
understanding.
May Allah(swt) guide us all to Truth, in His service, and may
His mercy lift us to the heights of wisdom, and success, in His Deen.

Jochen Katz

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98
to

In article <6h8q2f$e...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
dervish <jes...@gte.net> writes:

} The Khan and Hilali translation is notorious for its
} innovation and misleading conclusions. Every word in the above
} parentheses is actually tafsir, not translation... yet they cunningly
} bury it in the text so that the casual reader will confuse the opinions
} of Drs. Khan & Hilali with the Word of Allah.

Hear, hear. But it comes worse. In this case the extras are
in parentheses. They do not always do that....

} The original text of this
} passage makes NO mention of music...no matter how much Khan and Hilali
} think it ought to have.

Interestingly, they have done that with another passage too.
A passage that is more central and essential than the issue of
music.

On our Muslim/Christian dialog list ( http://debate.org.uk/mcd/ )
some weeks ago a Muslim realized the same thing whenwe were talking
about the crucifixion and she sent these findings:

----

After I posted last I looked up this passage in two different
translations of the Quran...Yusuf Ali and "The Noble Quran" (not so
"noble" after all) translated by Al-Hilali and Khan....first the Ali
translation:

That they said "We killed Christ Jesus, The son of Mary, messenger of
Allah - But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made
to appear to them... (4:157)

Now the not so "noble" translation:

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Iesa (Jesus),
son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah", - but they killed him
not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over
another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are
full of doubts...(4:157)

Are these translators kidding???? The arabic text doesn't say this AT
ALL! (BTW This translation is approved by ... bin Baz) They have
effectively done to the Quran what they've been blaming the Jews for
all along!

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then
say, 'This is from Allah' ...

I think one of the most disturbing aspects of this translation is
that it's clearly meant for converts as it feels the need to remind
its readers that Iesa is Jesus and Maryam is Mary. Some of what
appears to be commentary in this translation is put into parantheses...
but that was not the case with this passage....thereby giving the
impression to a non-arabic speaker/reader that the text actually
says that!!!!!

----

Because of this and other passages I fully agree with you
when you continue:

} The Khan & Hilali
} "translation" is FULL of such innovations, and unfortunately,
} well-meaning converts often confuse the words in parentheses with what
} the Quran REALLY says.

And sometimes there are not even parentheses...

} I can't count the number of wild speculations and
} alterations have found in that book. I don't even call it a Quran in
} fact, due to its slanted agenda. Scholars who subvert Allah's Word for

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


} gain in this world are specifically discussed in the Quran...and lemme

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


} tell ya I wouldn't want to be in Khan & Hilali's shoes on the Last Day,
} inshAllah.

You yourself say that this is what Allah condemns in the Qur'an.
Now, the obvious observation and question is:

Is the Qur'an corrupted now that Khan and Hilali have done this?

Yes and no. They have corrupted the meaning, and even written
the corrupted meaning down and sold it as "Qur'an" and "word
from Allah".

Nevertheless, the real Qur'an is still there as it always was.

The Qur'an says the same about SOME Jews, who supposedly in
Muhammad's times wrote things that were not true and said
that is from Allah.

Is the Torah therefore corrupted?

Maybe those particular pieces of writing were, but why would
this mean that the manuscripts of the Jews in Israel, or Babylon
or Spain or Rome were corrupted because some Jews in Medina tried
to play tricks on Muhammad?

Obviously, a local tampering does not lead to a global corruption
of the scriptures. There are always many copies around which are
in the hands of the faithful and they will not allow that some
evil people change their book.

Interestingly, there is even more of a parallel. Muhammad did
not speak Hebrew. It is quite probable that the "corruption
of writing with their hands what is not from God" refers to
the Arabic interpretations that the Jews were writing of the
scriptures. Translation into their vernacular, because only
the learned, the scholars were able to speak and read Hebrew.
So, for the common people they were translating portions of
the scriptures and gave interpretations and illustrations of
it in Arabic. Most probably those interpretations were "twisted"
at times and Muhammad might have refered to that when he accused
the Jews of currupting the words of God.

Just as you did with Hilali and Khan.

This makes full sense with the local situation, with the
accusation in the Qur'an and with the fact that it is
impossible to even conceive how somebody would uniformly
change all manuscripts around the world (handwritten)
and be able and allowed to do so by all the local
congregations of Jews and Christians and not overlook any
of the manuscripts. Fact is, we have no manuscripts that
are substantially different. Apart from copy errors they
are identical and there is no evidence at all for systematic
tampering. The manuscript evidence points to the same
explanation of verbal or local translation tampering if any
in writing at all.

I hope that this observation about tampering with the
Qur'an helps understand what it means when the Qur'an
speaks about the Jews tampering with their scriptures
and that the charge of wholesale corruption of our current
copies of the Torah is an accusation that is not sustainable
when approached with some common sense.

Warm regards,

Jochen Katz

Nadir Masood

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98
to

AbdulraHman Lomax (mar...@vom.com) writes:


> It is interesting to note that there were apparently companions of the
> Prophet, SAS, who strongly disapproved of music, but the Prophet
> himself did not approve of their disapproval! -- according to the
> reports I have read....


where are those reports? please post them...


--


Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error;
whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most

Nadir Masood

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98
to

khadijah chadly (yas...@pacbell.net) wrote:
> When the Prophet* and his companion Abu Bakr* ran away from Mecca
> they were greeted by the people of Medina singing an dplaying the deff
> and singing the famous song "Talaa el budro alaina"...
> and we know through tradition that at weddings there should be
> singing and praising .

not music.

> There is an hadith about this but I haven't the time
> right now to look for it. I don't think you should generalize and throw the

convenient eh?

> baby out with the bathwater. There is halal music and there is haram
> music and there is makrouh music."Talaa el budro" is halal music and
> whatever is similar to it is also halal.
> Haram music affects the bellybutton and downwards.

> Makrouh is neutral like some jazz is. It depends on the persons'

is this your fatwa? what about heavy metal or acid jazz? is that makrouh
or haram? i've got techno and industrial as well..please brother enlighten
us on how hallal it is. rap..is it makrouh..or hallal? hmmm...

> intentions.

> People with ideas like this are what make other people hate Islam.
> From

> Yassir who plays halal music on his deff

and you decided weather this is hallal or haram? maybe it's makrouh!

Give me a break!!! What kind of argument are you making here?


**************************************************************************


Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error;

whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust-


worthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all

dervish

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Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98
to

Nadir Masood wrote:

Islam cannot only be picked up from the Quran. We also have to learn
> about Islam
> from the Sunnah of the Rasul (pbuh) and the hadith of the Rasul (pbuh).
> There are some things such as wearing of the Hijab that are not in the
> Quran, but
> it is an integral part of Islam. Where does it come from..from the
> Hadith. Now, brother,
> you cannot simply say that you only concetrate on the Quran and
> generally ignore hadith.
>

Asalaamo Alaykum!

Bismillah:

Dear brother Nadir,

I would ask you please, brother, to provide references for your
statements. We are quite familiar with the ways of your fathers, and of
the practices of Islam's dominant sect...based on the innovations of the
Ummayyids. Only that which is specifically authorized by the Word of
Allah, however, is legitimate. 1350 years of accrued wrongs do not add
up to correct Islam, inshAllah. Islam is never based on the traditions
of people. People must bend to Allah's Word, inshAllah, we do *not* bend
Allah's Word to fit what people are accustomed to.
I would point out to you that hijab is authorized in the Quran.
In sura Nur, ayah 31 (24:31), we find it inshAllah. salat is also in the
Quran...prostration and praise are mentioned repeatedly...48:29 is one
example, but there are many others as well. Everything essential to our
deen is in the Quran...if it is not found therein, then it is not
essential, as the Quran alone is Allah's Word. To claim otherwise is to
deny the Quran...as Allah's Word in the Quran says to take nothing after
it, and says that the Quran is a clear exposition of ALL things, and
complete. To say some essential part of deen is not in the Quran, is to
call Allah a liar... I needn't illustrate the consequences of that.
The position on ahadith is clear... Sura 31:06 describes what
happens to those who purchase idle tales about deen (it specifically
says 'hadith'), further, we are to take nothing after the Quran...


Quran 77.50

Then what Message, after that, will they believe in?

Quran 45.06


These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with
truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His
communications?

Quran 28.02

These are Verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.

Quran 6.114

Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath
sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to
whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord
in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

Quran 12.111 :


There is, in their stories, instruction for men endued with
understanding. It is not a tale invented, but a confirmation of what
went before it,- a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a
mercy to any such as believe.

Quran 47.24

Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their
hearts locked up by them?

Quran 25.30
Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this
Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."

Quran 50.45
We know best what they say; and thou art not one to overawe them by
force. So admonish with the Qur'an such as fear My Warning!

Quran 5.44
".......therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a
miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah
hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers".

Unfortunately we inherit many traditions in Islam from periods
of corruption...yet simply following the ways of our fathers will not
avail us, inshAllah, as the Quran is eminently clear about what happens
to those who do. We *must* search our own hearts, beg Allah for
guidance, and study al-Quran, inshAllah, in order to break free of the
accumulated bid'aa and habits of centuries of Ummayyid based Islam. The
Islam of Yazid is not the Islam of the Prophet(saw).
I have stated elsewhere my position on ahadith. I do not
recommend discarding them, but rather they must be studied and used with
caution...they are NOT Allah's Word by any stretch of the imagination,
not are they protected from alteration and forgery (The Quran alone is
protected by Allah(swt)..see sura 2:106).

> Hence, both, I repeat BOTH, are used hand in hand in Islam to make
> fatwas and pass laws by the ulema. (Sahih hadith i mean..not dhaif
> ahadith)

This is an interesting passage akhee... To equate the ahadith
as hand-in-hand with al-Quran is to say that the heresay of overheard
conversations is equal to Allah's Word. It is in fact a blasphemy,
akhee, to equate men's words with al-Quran. The concepts of ulema and
fatwas are distinctly unislamic. These in particular are dangerous,
unwarranted innovations of Islam, and occured in the vacuum created by
the death of Ali(ra). There is NO Islamic justification for either a
standing clergy, or any authority for same.
Clergy was the downfall of both Judaism, and Christianity. Their
scholars butchered Allah's message until it became a watered-down,
irrelevant deen...in fact it became the opposite of what it originally
was. The Pharisees are an interesting case...there are many parallels
between them and modern Islam... first they elevated their ahadith to
equal status with the Taurut, and then they institutionalized a standing
scholarship, with authority...who had exclusive license to interpret
deen. Finally, they became obsessed with the details and minutae of
their traditions (hadith), so much so, that they neglected the basic
message of the Taurut.
The Christians did the same thing. Much of what is now called
the Bible is actually the equivalent of hadith..their traditions..and
they mixed it in with actual Scripture. Their hadith contradicts the
Gospels too, on several points, and typically Christian scholars will
defer to the later books (eg the prohibition on clergy in Mark 23, is
abrogated by Paul's commentary). The Christians also established a
clergy, and this clergy subverted the original message of Allah in the
Injeel.
The idea of clergy and fatwas are appealing to rulers and kings.
Through these, policies can be enforced, and people can be oppressed,
through the artful application of an innovated Islam. This is the legacy
of the Ummayyids, and is why Husayn died at Kerbala. There is no Islamic
justification for either one...fatwas are bid'aa by definition...we may
have casual opinions, but none of us have any authority whatsoever over
anyone else. If we seek understanding, we are not to run out and ask
someone else, first we are to ask the one who teaches al-Quran...we ask
Allah(swt), sincerely, and with humility. Few actually ask, perhaps
because our faith is so low that they do not expect answers.
We may certainly teach and learn...we are all examples for each
other...but we must never forget who our Lord is. The world is full of
hungry souls who love authority, and love to be heard and obeyed. These
we must ignore...they distract us from our Real Guide. It is Allah(swt)
who grants wisdom, and Him alone who teaches deen. let's never forget to
beg Him for knowledge inshAllah.

Quran 40.60
And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer): but those
who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell -
in humiliation!"

Quran 4.65
But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make
thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no
resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest
conviction.

Quran 13.10-11
It is the same (to Him) whether any of you conceal his speech or
declare it openly; whether he lie hid by night or walk forth freely by
day. For each (such person) there are (angels) in succession, before and
behind him: They guard him by command of Allah. Allah does not change a
people's lot unless they change what is in their hearts. But when (once)
Allah willeth a people's punishment, there can be no turning it back,
nor will they find, besides Him, any to protect.

Quran 27.34
She said: "Kings, when they enter a country, despoil it, and make the
noblest of its people its meanest thus do they behave.

Quran 10.35
Say: "Of your 'partners' is there any that can give any guidance
towards truth?" Say: "It is Allah Who gives guidance towards truth, is
then He Who gives guidance to truth more worthy to be followed, or he
who finds not guidance (himself) unless he is guided? what then is the
matter with you? How judge ye?"

Quran 6.66
But thy people reject this, though it is the truth. Say: "Not mine is
the responsibility for arranging your affairs;

Quran 24.11
Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves: think it
not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you: to every
man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and
to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty
grievous.

Quran 29.2
Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and
that they will not be tested?

Quran 2.44-6
Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to
practise it)? And ye are readers of the Scripture! Have ye then no
sense? Seek help in patience and prayer; and truly it is hard save for
the humble-minded, Who know that they will have to meet their Lord, and
that unto Him they are returning.

Quran 28.83
As for that Abode of the Hereafter We assign it unto those who seek not
oppression in the earth, nor yet corruption. The sequel is for those who
ward off (evil).

Quran 7.33
Say: My Lord forbiddeth only indecencies, such of them as are apparent
and such as are within, and sin and wrongful oppression, and that ye
associate with Allah that for which no warrant hath been revealed, and
that ye tell concerning Allah that which ye know not.

Scholars, authority, fatwas, and compulsion have been the
hallmarks of innovated Islam since Yazid. Islam is freedom...an
unlocking of the heart...not a tool for earthly gain or oppression.
Those who love authority are clear...you can find them pointing fingers,
criticizing their brothers, and trying to be heard. You can find them
quoting Quran and hadith only with the motive of enforcing their
desires...they are oddly silent about their own behavior and methods.
Rarely do you hear from a son of Yazid anything about humility, the sin
of suspicion, they rarely mention tolerance, mercy, or love. Rather
Yazid's sons and daughters love blood and authority. You hear from them
a desire for conquest, murder, and restriction. Their fullest expression
is seen in some of the extremes of Taliban and Hamas, though they are
often subtle and clever as well...wooing us to their sins through
appeals to tradition, and majority opinion.
Real Islam is an intensely personal journey. We surrender our
own hearts..not each other's. As such, there is a certain difficulty, in
that many would prefer not to do it....preferring their own desires and
ideas..these try to cleverly hide within religion, as well as outside of
it. It is time for pious muslims to reject such appeals inshAllah, and
to turn to Allah(swt) alone for guidance and help on this most sacred of
journeys. We can't fool Allah, inshAllah. We can fool each other, and
most especially, ourselves...but in the end Allah(swt) knows our
motives, and whether or not we truly trust Him.

May we all be guided to the glory and majesty that is al-Haqq,
and may we ever remember from whence we get Love, Wisdom, Mercy, and
Life. May we reject reverence for any but Him, and may our path to deen
be clear, through His guidance.

Abdur Rahim Choudhary

unread,
Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98
to

Salam every body:

At the expense of lengthening this already long thread I would like to share my
two pence.

I have a book. It is a version of a Ph.D. thesis. It seems to analyze Music
being haram or not. It seems not to call it haram. Here is the reference:

"The islamic ruling on
Music
and
Singing
in light of the Quran
the sunnah, and the consensus of our pious predecessors"

by
Abu Bilal Mustafa Al-Kanadi
copyright 1991
published by: Abul Qasim Bookstore
Jeddah, Palestine Strret,
p.o.box 6156, Jeddah 21442
Saudi Arabia
Phone: 966-2-672-5523

This book produced in collaboration with
Saheen International

Permission of Ministry of Information number
3405/M dated 21/5/1410 H

I hope you can consult this reference.

--------------------------


Also for the benefit of this thread I went to
http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/97/re02-21-97.html

And following is the statement there:

Q 2. I would like to know if music or songs are allowed in Islam? Can
you give me any reference from the Qur'an where it says anything
about music and singing. I think that music is prohibited, but I would like
to know the ayat that prohibit it. I also would like to know whether
"pure music" without any singing (i.e. instrumental only) allowed?
Thanks for your help. (Ahmed)

A 2. Islam is not against happiness and pleasure. Good, clean, wholesome
and
healthy entertainment is not only allowed but also encouraged in Islam.
Singing,
chanting and reciting poetry are all acceptable in Islam as long as the
songs or
poems have good meanings and they do not make people forget their religious
and social obligations. There is nothing wrong in listening to songs, but
one must
be very careful in selecting the songs. Do not listen to songs that praise
sinful
deeds or excite people to commit sin or to indulge in immoral behavior. Do
not
listen to the songs that turn you away from the path of Allah. Also do not
get
addicted to songs in such a way that you keep on listening to them day and
night. Unfortunately there are a lot of songs now a days that lead to sin
and
shameful deeds and they are very addictive. It is for this reason many
conscientious Muslims forbid listening to songs.
We cannot forbid all songs and poetry. Good songs and poetry have
been in Islamic culture since the time of the Prophet -peace be upon him.
The
Prophet -peace be upon him- himself listened to good poetry and encouraged
Hassan bin Thabit, who was known as "the Poet of the Prophet" to say the
poetry in the praise of Allah and in the honor of His Religion and His
Messenger. When a woman was married to an Ansari (a man of Madinah) the
Prophet said to his wife 'Aishah, "Did they have any entertainment? The
Ansar
are fond of entertainment." (Al-Bukhari) Ibn 'Abbas -may Allah be pleased
with him- reported that when 'Aishah gave one of her female relatives in
marriage to a man from the Ansar, the Prophet -peace be upon him- asked
her,
"Did you send a singer along with her?" "No", said 'Aishah. The Prophet
-peace
be upon him-then said, "The Ansar are a people who love poetry. You should
have sent along someone who would sing, 'Here we come, to you we come,
greet us as we greet you.'" (The Prophet even gave the words of a local
song.)
On the day of Eid, two girls came to the Prophet's house and they along
with
his wife 'Aishah played hand drum and sang a song. When Abu Bakr -may
Allah be pleased with him- wanted to stop them, the Prophet -peace be upon
him- said, "Leave them, Abu Bakr. These are the days of Eid." (Bukhari and
Muslim)
Concerning the music the opinions differ. There are some Muslim
scholars who have the opinion that all music is haram in Islam. They say
that the
Qur'an has forbidden "laghw and lahw" (idle things and things that
distract, see
Al-Mu'minun 32:3; Luqman 31:6). They say that music is part of the laghw
and
lahw that Allah has forbidden. They also quote some Ahadith, which prohibit
music, or claim that, the Prophet -peace be upon him- said that he came in
order to destroy to instruments of music.
But there are some other scholars and jurists who do not agree that
all
music is necessarily laghw and lahw. They say that reading some books could
be also idle and distracting thing, while some music is soothing and
relaxing and
it does not mislead the people from the path of Allah. Imam Ibn Hazm was of
the opinion that all those Ahadith that say that music was forbidden and
prohibited were fabricated (mawdu') and unacceptable. Imam Shawkani in his
famous Nail al-Awtar (vol. 8 pp. 260-271) has mentioned that some Sahabah,
the Companions of the Prophet, used to listen to music. He even wrote a
book
with the title, "Ibtal Da'wa Al-Ijma' 'ala Tahrim Mutlaq al-Sama'" (The
Refutation of the Alleged Claim of Consensus on the Absolute Prohibition of
Music and Songs).
While it is not right to say that all music is prohibited in Islam, it
is
important to use great discretion in the case of music. A lot of music that
is
available in the markets now a days is very dangerous and harmful. Muslim
youth should be extremely careful. There are, however, some Muslim groups
in
different countries who are developing songs that are very good enjoyable,
entertaining, and have good positive message.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

unread,
Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98
to

dv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Nadir Masood) wrote:

>singing is different from music.

<laughing>

Valid definitions, please.

Parvez

unread,
Apr 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/23/98
to

On 17 Apr 1998, AbdulraHman Lomax wrote:

> as-salamu 'alaykum.

Walaikum Assalam

> Now, is silk, in itself, unlawful? Should I forbid my wife to wear it?

No. For female it is permitted.

>
> In fact, should I forbid myself to wear it? Though I generally avoid
> it, it is lawful for me. Do I need to explain why?


I think you should, particularly when I know of explicit hadith forbidding
it. You too knew that. Prophet(pbuh) himself picked gold on one hand and
silk in other and declared that these two are forbidden for the males in
his Ummah. Please forgive me if I have missed anything and explain why you
would consider it halal for yourself.

> Another problem with the hadith is that the list is connected with
> "and," not with "or," and a consequence of this is that the prophecy
> contained in the hadith is not fulfilled until a circumstance arises
> where *all four* items are considered lawful (and the word used in the
> hadith, translated as "will consider ... as lawful," really means "are
> considering lawful for themselves;" it's a reflexive form). And this
> circumstance is one which resembles a modern institution:


Now I am not here to say if music is halal or haram. But I am having
difficulty with this 'and'/'or' technique. So all these four, if
considered lawful indicates disastrous period and music is one of those.
Now the first three are uncontroversially unlawful at any time which
during disastrous time will be unlawfully considered lawful. By analogy of
coexistence of music with these, one might argue that music too is not
permissible along with those. There is a general consensus among the
scholars that music is by some way or the other controversial to say the
least.

Wassalamu Alaikum

Parvez
Dept. of Mech. Eng.
Queen's University at Kingston
Kingston K7L 3N6
Ontario, Canada
E-mail: 7k...@qlink.queensu.ca
im...@me.queensu.ca
ct...@freenet.toronto.on.ca
Tel: +1-613-549-9979 (Home)
+1-613-545-6000 Ext 4628 (School)
Fax: +1-613-545-6489 (School)


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