Re: Surah Yunus v. 94
hajj abujamal
On 10/7/2011 11:42 PM, André Keshave wrote:
> I have a question concerning [Q10.94] ...
"... then question those who read The Book before you."
> Is it referring to previous scripture such as the Tawrat
> and the Injil, or to previous Quranic revelations?
No, it refers questioners to people, not "previous scripture" ~ we
who had read the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures BEFORE we were guided to Islam.
> If it is referring to the Injil, it would be
> a recommendation to Muslims to read it.
No, it's a recommendation to muslims to "question those who read The
Book before you." Ask the people, not read what they used to read.
> Muslims often claim I think that the Injil at the time of the Prophet
> was not the same as today. Yet the manuscripts used in today's version
> of the Gospels largely predate the time of Muhammad.
The Hebrew scribes "twisted their tongues with the Book" and
"changed words from their places," and some of the Book they "hid behind
their backs." This took place before the time of Jesus, and what we see
today (i.e., in Hebrew and Aramaic) is what was extant in the time of
Jesus. The Samaritan Torah is textually identical to the Jerusalem
Torah, showing that the changes in the Torah ~ transposition and
mispronunciation ~ took place before the death of Solomon.
The Greek "New Testament" is a selected collection of Talmudic
writings about the false messiah of the Talmud, it is not the Injeel and
contains almost none of it. It contains some of the Hikmah with which
Jesus was sent, but not all of it. The Injeel is contained in the
Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures including the testimonies of the Hebrew
prophets; the rest of the Hikmah is also contained in the Hebrew/Aramaic
Scriptures, known today as "the Old Testament."
Jesus was "sent with" the Injeel and the Hikmah, and with "The Book"
~ until he was sent as the Messiah, it was not lawful for any of the
Children of Israel to read the Scriptures to anyone else, on pain of
death of the reader and whoever heard the reading. This was
meticulously observed ~ the scribes and pharisees tried to get Jesus to
recite "a Sign" of "the Son of Man" previously written in Scripture so
that they could execute him, but he gave them the sign of Jonah ~ "Just
as Jonah spent three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so
the Son of Man will spend three days and three nights in the belly of
the earth." Jesus was "given" the Injeel and the Hikmah to announce ~
the "News" (of the Messenger) and the "Judgment" (on Israel) ~ but both
were already in the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures sent down before him, and
still are.
However, "the Bible" as we have it today is what was extant at the
time of the Messenger ~ the "Old Testament" as it existed in the time of
Jesus, and the "New Testament" as it existed when the Qur'an was sent
down. The only "changes" that have been introduced since then have been
those of mistranslations into Greek, Latin, German, English, and
languages other than Hebrew, Aramaic, Amharic, or Arabic.
> Thanks.
was-salaam,
abujamal
--
astaghfirullahal-ladhee laa ilaha illa
howal-hayyul-qayyoom wa 'atoobu 'ilaihi
Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
André Keshave
translation):
"If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask
those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath
indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in
doubt."
Is it referring to previous scripture such as the Tawrat and the
Injil, or to previous Quranic revelations?
Muslims to read it.
Muslims often claim I think that the Injil at the time of the Prophet
was not the same as today. Yet the manuscripts used in today's version
André Keshave
....
> =A0 =A0 The Greek "New Testament" is a selected collection of Talmudic
> writings about the false messiah of the Talmud, it is not the Injeel and
....
Thank you.
Another question: I don't undersand what do you mean by the statement
above, as the Greek New Testament is mainly about Jesus, who is also
recognized as the Messiah in Islam.
AK
hajj abujamal
On 10/8/2011 7:24 AM, Andr=E9 Keshave wrote:
>> The Greek "New Testament" is a selected collection of Talmudic
>> writings about the false messiah of the Talmud, it is not the Injeel .=
..
... which is contained in what we call the "Old Testament."
> I don't understand what do you mean by the statement
> above, as the Greek New Testament is mainly about Jesus, who is also
> recognized as the Messiah in Islam.
The Greek New Testament portrays Jesus as the false messiah of the=20
Talmud. The Talmud denies the Messenger of the Covenant, Muhammad, and=20
conflates the Messenger with the Messiah, saying that the Messiah and=20
the Messenger of the Covenant are the same person, and that the Messiah=20
"will do" what the Messenger of the Covenant would do (and did). This=20
false "messiah" is what Paul learned at the feet of the pharisees, and=20
what he preached after Jesus was gone. Paul, and others who believed=20
that Jesus was the "messiah" of the Talmud, wrote about Jesus, while=20
others, like Barnabas, James, Clement of Alexandria, and at first Peter,=20
who knew Jesus was the Messiah and NOT the "messiah" of the Talmud,=20
wrote (or spoke) about Jesus. The writings of the former were preserved=20
by the Roman Emperor Constantine and his successors, while the writings=20
of the latter were excluded from the Greek New Testament and, where the=20
Roman legions, the partisans of Paul, and the Temple authorities could=20
find them, burned. Thus Jews are still waiting for that false messiah,=20
and Christians are waiting for Jesus to return to do the things that he=20
didn't do, that the Messenger of the Covenant did.
The Messiah is described in the Old Testament, and if you'll look in=20
the New Testament you'll find that Jesus said, explicitly, that he had=20
done everything he had been sent to do. The Messenger of the Covenant ~=20
his lineage, location, name, and what he would do and where he would do=20
it ~ is also described in the Old Testament. All the details are there,=20
and that is the "Good News" that Jesus sent to the nations with the=20
Disciples, while most of the Apostles remained in the Promised Land to=20
continue sending out disciples from among the Children of Israel until=20
they were all slaughtered by the Romans or died.
Until the time of Jesus, the gentiles were waiting for "Shiloh" ~=20
hence the saying "When Shiloh comes" ~ which is all they knew: "Shiloh"=20
would come and through him God would do for the gentiles what than He=20
had done for the Jews and much more. After Jesus, the gentiles knew a=20
lot more about Shiloh ~ his name, where he would come, what he would=20
bring, and what would happen in the Promised Land as a result ~ which=20
happened over a thousand years ago. But the followers of Paul ~ the=20
entirety of Roman Christianity, Greek Orthodox Christianity, and all of=20
their Protestant and other offshoots ~ were taught that the "Good News"=20
was about Jesus, not about the Messenger of the Covenant. This was the=20
plan of the pharisees and scribes, who carried it out after they were=20
certain that Jesus was no longer around.
Jesus warned that they would do this, saying "Many will come in my=20
name, saying I am the messiah, and would deceive, were it possible, even=20
the Chosen People." And they did just what Jesus said they would: they=20
said Jesus was the messiah of the Talmud, which is what you see in the=20
New Testament.
Most muslims today do not know this. Those who do are mostly those=20
who used to read the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures before they were guided=20
to the Qur'an. The Qur'an illuminates the Bible, all of this is in the=20
Bible ~ if you are able to recognize it when you read it. The early=20
muslims of Medina knew this, but their successors ~ after Islam had been=20
taken up ~ followed the Jews, keeping secret what they knew would come=20
when Islam was returned, hiding the Signs of that return, and so on,=20
just as the Jews hid the Signs of the Messiah and the Signs of the=20
Messenger of the Covenant.
But ALLAH is the Best of Planners, and all of their plans did=20
nothing more than fit into His Plans, making His Plans come to pass.
The majority of today's Christians and Jews are trapped in the lies=20
their priests tell them. But the truth is in their Books, which most of=20
them don't read. The sheer mass of lies told about religion and=20
religious history is incredible ~ pun intended.
But "turning away from what is found to be false" is the basic=20
religion of Abraham. So there may be some hope for those who imagine=20
that they are "saved" by the "messiah" of the Talmud. Most of them,=20
however, it appears to me, will be waiting forever for Jesus to return=20
as the Messenger of the Covenant. But he won't.
> AK
was-salaam,
abujamal
--=20
André Keshave
> =A0 =A0 The Greek New Testament portrays Jesus as the false messiah of th=
e
> Talmud. =A0The Talmud denies the Messenger of the Covenant, Muhammad, and
> conflates the Messenger with the Messiah, saying that the Messiah and
> the Messenger of the Covenant are the same person, and that the Messiah
> "will do" what the Messenger of the Covenant would do (and did).
....
I'm not familiar with Judaism and the Talmud, but Christians don't
believe that the "Messenger of the Covenant" in Malachi 3.1. refers to
Jesus. The "Messenger" is identified as John the Baptist (the "new
Eliah") in Mark (1.2).
....
>Thus Jews are still waiting for that false messiah,
>and Christians are waiting for Jesus to return to do the things that he
>didn't do, that the Messenger of the Covenant did.
Christians don't believe that Jesus will return in such a way, but
only at the end of times, in order to judge people. Which I think is
similar to what Muslims believe.
AK