Masturbation in the Bible
Francisco J Merino
Is there any chapter of the Bible that treat masturbation ?
Thanks --
D. Andrew Kille
: Is there any chapter of the Bible that treat masturbation ?
: Thanks --
No.
The text often mentioned is Genesis 38:9, in which Onan "spills his seed"
instead of acting on his responsibility to impregnate his dead brother's
widow. (Thus the term "onanism" for masturbation) However, that text refers
to coitus interruptus, not masturbation.
Revdak
{ Actually, the 'sin' here is failure to carry out the levirate law, which
would have required Onan to father a child for his dead brother. -sma }
Alexander Pruss
> Is there any chapter of the Bible that treat masturbation ?
Yes. The Book of Sirach (aka. Ecclesiasticus, Jesus ben Sirach) 23:16-18
Two types of men multiply sins, a third draws down wrath;
For burning passion is a blazing fire,
not to be quenched till it burns itself out:
A man given to sins of the flesh,
who never stops until the fire breaks forth;
The rake to whom all bread is sweet
and who is never through till he dies;
And the man who dishonors his marriage bed
and says to himself "Who can see me? ...
It would seem, thus, that we have here listed three sinners.
Two multiplying sins:
1. the masturbator
2. the rake
And one drawing down wrath:
3. the adulterer proper.
There is also an example of heavy punishment for a man spilling his
seed on the ground given somewhere else; I think in the Pentateuch.
In Christ,
Alex Pruss
--
Alexander Pruss, Dept. of Mathematics, U. of British Columbia, Vancouver,Canada
pr...@math.ubc.ca
God has no name as a man has.
- Attalus, Christian martyr (c. 177), while being
roasted on an iron chair.
{ Just a note for those who may not know: The Book of Sirach is part of the
Deuterocanon (known to some Protestants as the 'Apocrypha'. If you want
to look this up, you'll need a Bible + Apocrypha, or for example, a Roman
Catholic edition. -sma }
Samuel E Wiggins
The exact Biblical reference escapes me at the moment, but there is a verse
that mentions that it is shameful for a man to "spill his seed on the ground."
This would have a more general scope than just coitus interruptus and,
possibly, could include masturbation. I think this in the OT somewhere as part
of the verse that goes "it's better for a man to spill his seed in the belly
of a whore than on the ground." I may be mistaken, however. Also, I'd have to
look at the verse again to determine what it *really* means in context. Could
someone please post this reference for us?
--Sam W.
Timothy Tin-Wai Chan
I don't there are any explicit references to masturbation in the Bible,
but I think the following verses should be helpful to anyone struggling with
this topic (NIV):
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure,
whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable---if anything is excellent or
praiseworthy---think about such things." (Philippians 4:20)
"Anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her
in his heart." (Matthew 5:27)
Also: Romans 13:11-14; I Corinthians 6:12-13
Tim
--
"Faith is a kind of life experience; | Timothy T. Chan
It does not rely solely on reason nor philosophy" | gid...@cs.utexas.edu
| Dept. of Computer Sciences
-- Mr. Duan Yong Fai | Univ. of Texas at Austin
Aaron Bryce Cardenas
> Is there any chapter of the Bible that treat masturbation ?
>
> Thanks --
Ephesians makes a reference that clearly refers to masturbation, but does
not limit itself to it.
Ephesians 4:17-19 "So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you
must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They
^^^^^^^^
are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of
the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost
all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge
^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more."
^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
Continuing...
Ephesians 5:3-5 "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual
^^^^ ^^^^^^
immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper
^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse
joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be
sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person -- such a man is an idolater -- has
^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
Concluding...
Ephesians 5:12-14 "For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light
^^^^^^
that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
'Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.'"
If you have time, you should read from Ephesians 4:17-5:21(or through 5:16).
As with all choices, a Christian, should keep in mind Galatians 5:13-15 "You, my
brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the
^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^
sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in
^^^^^^
a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' If you keep on biting and
devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."
^^^^^ ^^^
Sin has the general characteristic of hurting yourself, others, and God. We need
to simply love each other, so that we will not destroy ourselves. Mastrubation is
definitely an easy sin to justify, but when you really think about it, it DOES
hurt other people, yourself, and as always God.
Matthew 5:28 illustrates in the specific case of adultery a more general
principle, that we can sin in our thoughts without actually carrying out a sinful
action. People usually have fantasies when they mastrubate, which build on
themselves to become deep desires for lustful sex that if fulfilled lead to
pre-marital sex or adultery, which can lead to a whole slew of varied problems and
further sins, including but not limited to abortion, sexually transmitted
diseases, breakup (when the two of you don't really care about each other),
deceit, and depression.
Even when unfulfilled, however, it leaves you with a "continual lust for more"
and more self-gratification. You start idolizing the feelings of pleasure and
attractive bodies; they become your gods. And EVERYBODY WILL make sacrifices for
their god, whether it be sports, programming, pro-life, pro-choice, the
Republican Party, the Democrat Party, their pet, school, work, drugs, lust, money,
fame, power, alcohol, astrology, the violin, dominoes, themselves, their children,
or Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. Ask yourself what or who you sacrifice the
most for with your time, money, talents, and love. There lies your god.
You start thinking of people in terms of physical attractiveness, instead of as
the unique people they are with their own interests, talents, love, and
friendship to give to others and God. It leads to sexual harassment, motivates
you to waste a lot of time being alone, leads you to wasting your money on
magazines such as Playboy or Playgirl and X-rated videos, and hurts your chances
at friendship with other people.
I should add that this is a more common problem among men than among women.
All in all, when it comes down to it, you need to have a disciple's heart about
reading the Bible. If your life doesn't match what the Bible says, then you
should have the attitude that you will change your life according to God's will.
On the other hand, if you read the Bible with the attitude of justifying your
lifestyle, you will perhaps convince yourself, but you will continue destroying
your friends and yourself.
- Aaron Bryce Cardenas
aar...@athena.mit.edu
{ Please try to keep your lines less than 75 charaters...thanx! -sma }
Earl Scott Seifert
>instead of acting on his responsibility to impregnate his dead brother's
>widow. (Thus the term "onanism" for masturbation) However, that text refers
>to coitus interruptus, not masturbation.
>{ Actually, the 'sin' here is failure to carry out the levirate law, which
> would have required Onan to father a child for his dead brother. -sma }
One minor note: Whereas the moderator is correct in describing why the
act was wicked (failure to fulfill duty not coitus interruptus) this
could not have been a violation of the Levitical Law which came later.
Of course God's standards are timeless (Cain's act of murder was also
wicked) so this point is a small one. The Law exists to demonstrate
sinfulness; Onan knew what he did was sinful (Judah had commanded him
in accordance with whatever code of ethics God had already revealed)
so this minor fact should not obscure the moderator's point.
--
Scott Seifert
sei...@eng.umd.edu
Bruce Lee McAndless-Davis
> Is there any chapter of the Bible that treat masturbation ?
None whatsoever. Any suggestion to the contrary involves reading into the
text. The Bible has much to say, however, about how we treat our bodies.
I see nothing in Biblical teaching that would prohibit masturbation as
long as it didn't become an obsession or addiction. It is an extremely
common, safe, healthy and non-exploitative way of getting basic sexual
gratification - ie. a healthy way to deal with hormones that can't always
wait for good sex with a life-long partner. Enjoy!
--
Bruce McAndless-Davis | bmd...@unixg.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia | Vancouver, B.C., Canada
VISUALIZE WHIRLLED PEAS
Richard L. Goerwitz
>Yes. The Book of Sirach (aka. Ecclesiasticus, Jesus ben Sirach) 23:16-18
> Two types of men multiply sins, a third draws down wrath;
> For burning passion is a blazing fire,
> not to be quenched till it burns itself out:
Maybe it's just me, but what does this have to do with masturbation?
I'd say that a guy who feels burning passion that can't be quenched
until it burns itself out ought to masturbate before he goes and
rapes someone or molests a kid. Seriously, though, what evidence is
there that this refers to masturbation? I don't deny that there is
any. I'd just like to see it.
Regarding the seed-spilling incident, see my earlier posting. Be sure
to read the context and the intent of the story. It's not about mastur-
bation, but about failing to fulfill one's levirate obligations.
I'd say that if there were injunctions against masturbation, we ought
to look for them in the NT, where the authors (particularly Paul) are a
lot more puritannical about sex. Don't the vice lists mention mastur-
bation??
--
-Richard L. Goerwitz goer%mid...@uchicago.bitnet
go...@midway.uchicago.edu rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer
Richard L. Goerwitz
>
>Ephesians makes a reference that clearly refers to masturbation, but does
>not limit itself to it.
Clearly? Only in the eye of the beholder.
>Having lost
>all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge
>in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more."
Maybe it's just me, but this looks like circular reasoning to me. Mastur-
bation is impure. Ergo references to sexual impurity imply masturbation.
Again, the principle should be to go from the known to the unknown, i.e. from
quotations that explicitly refer to something to those that imply it.
>Continuing...
>Ephesians 5:3-5 "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual
More of the same.
>Concluding...
>Ephesians 5:12-14"For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in
>secret....
By your logic we should place our toilets in the open air. I just don't
think all your moralizing is called for. It deviates from the subject, and
really doesn't have much to do with the Bible. If you just don't think
people should masturbate, say it in the soc.religion.christian newsgroup.
As for me, I don't see how a single or celibate man can get by without it,
although I'd happily change my tune if someone would actually cite a pas-
sage in the Bible that talks about the subject. I'm happily married, after
all :-).
timothy shimeall
>
>The exact Biblical reference escapes me at the moment, but there is a verse
>that mentions that it is shameful for a man to "spill his seed on the ground."
>This would have a more general scope than just coitus interruptus and,
>possibly, could include masturbation.
of Onan -- the sin is failure of familial duties, not necessarily
masturbation.
>I think this in the OT somewhere as part
>of the verse that goes "it's better for a man to spill his seed in the belly
>of a whore than on the ground." I may be mistaken, however.
I believe you are mistaken, and that this quote is from the Koran,
rather than the Bible.
Note: I am NOT condoning masturbation in this post -- but I don't see
scripture speaking clearly on this topic.
Tim
Stan Armstrong
Many of the contributers to this thread assume what they are trying to
prove. The question is, does the Bible teach that masturbation is
immoral? General references to sexual immorality, such as those in
Ephesians, count against masturbation only if we are already persuaded on
non-Biblical grounds that it is immoral.
--
Stan Armstrong. Religious Studies Dept, Saint Mary's University, Halifax, N.S.
Arms...@husky1.stmarys.ca | att!clyde!watmath!water!dalcs!armstrng
Jon Ogden
Our moderator already pointed out that this came from the fact that they
person that did the act was failing to keep another law (something to do
with fulfilling the family since his brother-in-law died).
I have read the other posts and I have to say that there really is no clear
answer in scripture on this. Many Christian leaders are on both sides of
this issue. For an example of someone on the side of "it's ok to" is Dr.
James Dobson who is a fairly well-know Christian psychologist. He mentions
it in his book preparing for adolescense (I believe). He says it is a
matter of personal conviction.
One of the pastors of my church was also asked this question once at a
singles retreat. He said that he didn't see any problem with it so long as
it didn't control you or so long as your mental pictures are controlled.
He said the problem with fantasies is that they reduce the person being
fantasised about to something sub-human. Sex is supposed to be people
sharing, not dominating. In a fantasy it is very easy to be dominating.
Maybe these two points make it impossible to masturbate within. By the way
I go to an extremely main-line evangelical church.
Then on the other side you have people who are against it. Edwin Louis
Cole who is an author and teacher mainly to men says it is wrong as do many
other writers, teachers, etc.
The point I feel is that as in all "grey" areas we must consult God and
leave the matter up to him. It is one of those things that is a matter of
conscience. Paul talks about those who were weaker in the fait and not
able to eat meat sacrificed to idols. Same thing goes here as well, I
feel.
Jon
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Aaron Bryce Cardenas
My reasoning on the passage from Ephesians would not say anything about using
a toilet for its intended purpose. Someone is not disobedient for going to
the bathroom. It is clearly an obscene thing to talk about the mechanics of
going to the bathroom. However, it is not an obscene thing to refer to or to
do. Otherwise people would not excuse themselves to go to the bathroom. On
the contrary, it is a rather necessary thing to do so that you will get rid
of the solid wastes in your body.
I deny having any natural tendency against masturbation for which I would
consider it wrong for myself or others to be doing. However, it is my
conviction from Ephesians and Romans that God considers this improper for
me to be doing. You are wrong in dismissing my ideas on how masturbation
hurts other people as "moralizing."
I do not feel it my duty to prove to you or others that it is wrong by
coming up with better scriptures that may or may not be out there. No
matter how clearly something is stated in the Bible, there will be people
who justify that something because they don't want to make tough changes.
Even if I found a scripture speaking of "masturbating offenders," people
would still find a way around it. I will remain content in my faith that God
will be found by those who EARNESTLY seek him with ALL of their heart and that
he will reward them.
God gives you and me free will, so I will not be one to try to take that free
will away from you. However, I will call your attention to Galatians 5:13,
because it is my aim to spur others on towards love and good deeds.
It is the motto of my church (which is made up of disciples that don't
masturbate and yet are quite healthy and happy) that we should "be silent where
the Bible speaks and speak where the Bible is silent." The acts of the sinful
nature are obvious. The Bible has spoken, so I have nothing more to say on
this subject. It would simply be wasted time.
- Aaron Bryce Cardenas
P.S. Sorry about the long lines in many of my posts. I will try to pay more
attention to them in the future so that they will be under 75 characters long.
Jon M. Madison
>Many of the contributers to this thread assume what they are trying to
>prove. The question is, does the Bible teach that masturbation is
>immoral? General references to sexual immorality, such as those in
>Ephesians, count against masturbation only if we are already persuaded on
>non-Biblical grounds that it is immoral.
I cannot think of a time when I have masturbated that I had not had
thoughts of having sex (NOTE: I'm not married yet, I do not masturbate
anymore, and I'm quite happy). So, according to the Bible, when Jesus
talks about looking at a woman lustfully & already committing adultery,
that pretty much covers me each time I masturbated. Maybe other men out
there have been able to keep an erection, masturbate, etc. while NOT thinking
of having sex with a woman, but I personally could not. I think my
actions have constitued adultery (sex outside of marriage). I can also
say that there was not a time when I masturbated and was doing it for
the glory of God _or_ for anyone else. this was a selfish act, and It
definitely did not gorify God.
TO SUMMARIZE:
to answer your question, the bible does _not_ explicitly address
masturbation (although I admit i do not _know_ the whole Bible), it
definitely addresses matters of having a clear conscience, adultery
(which covers plenty of sexual acts) and glorifying God. Another good
verse woth looking at...well i'll just quote part of the "Lust Control"
(It's a "musical" group :) Bible Study on it:
Does the Bible actually address the issue of masturbation?
We think so. Read Proverbs 5. Now that you've seen the
context of this chapter, re-read verse 18 and ask yourself
if the term "fountain" is not referring to the male sex organ.
Lust Control has more to say on the topic, but it is geared towards men
more than females (after all, the group consists of all males).
--
-jon madison
music freak......"...A Time to Dance"
-Ecclesiastes 3:4
(finger sl31...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu please. thank you.)
Virgilio (Dean) B. Velasco Jr.
>
>One of the pastors of my church was also asked this question once at a
>singles retreat. He said that he didn't see any problem with it so long as
>it didn't control you or so long as your mental pictures are controlled.
>He said the problem with fantasies is that they reduce the person being
>fantasised about to something sub-human. Sex is supposed to be people
>sharing, not dominating. In a fantasy it is very easy to be dominating.
>Maybe these two points make it impossible to masturbate within. By the way
>I go to an extremely main-line evangelical church.
I don't quite agree with that pastor, but that's another story.
Personally, I would *strongly* advise against masturbation. Why? Not
because it'll make you go blind. :)
When we are crucified with Christ, we must put to death our old nature. This
includes curbing our lusts. Whether masturbation itself is sinful or not is
beside the point. Indulging in it makes it harder for us to resist other temptations. It also makes it much easier to regard other people as mere sexual objects. I think that anyone who has ever struggled with lust should be able to appreciate this.
--
Virgilio "Dean" Velasco Jr, Department of Electrical Eng'g and Applied Physics
CWRU graduate student, roboticist-in-training and Q wannabee
"Perhaps we would have more power if Engineer Scott | My boss is a
connected your mouth to a generator, Doctor." | Jewish carpenter.
Douglas Martin Hills
>I cannot think of a time when I have masturbated that I had not had
>thoughts of having sex (NOTE: I'm not married yet, I do not masturbate
>anymore, and I'm quite happy). So, according to the Bible, when Jesus
>talks about looking at a woman lustfully & already committing adultery,
>that pretty much covers me each time I masturbated. Maybe other men out
>there have been able to keep an erection, masturbate, etc. while NOT thinking
>of having sex with a woman, but I personally could not. I think my
>actions have constitued adultery (sex outside of marriage). I can also
>say that there was not a time when I masturbated and was doing it for
>the glory of God _or_ for anyone else. this was a selfish act, and It
>definitely did not gorify God.
This is, I think very true, and very important. Just because the bible
doesn't explicitly say "Thou shalt not masturbate", doesn't mean it's
OK. I agree with Jon that lust is a critical part in masturbation, and
in our understanding of whether masturbation is sin.
If you can masturbate without lusting, great! Then as long as it isn't
controlling you (1 Corinthians 6:12), go ahead. I'm not sure, is this
possible for anyone? (It's not for me).
If however, you lust while masturbating, I think Jesus is pretty clear
in Matthew 5:27-28 about it, and I think it's wrong for you.
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a women lustfully
has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
-- Matthew 5:27-28 (NIV)
DMH
Frederick Herrmann
[stuff deleted]
Another good
verse woth looking at...well i'll just quote part of the "Lust Control"
(It's a "musical" group :) Bible Study on it:
Does the Bible actually address the issue of masturbation?
We think so. Read Proverbs 5. Now that you've seen the
context of this chapter, re-read verse 18 and ask yourself
if the term "fountain" is not referring to the male sex organ.
I'm not familiar with the group or its "music" (why do you put that in
quotes?), but I think "Lust Control" is finding more sexual imagery in
the passage than is actually there. If we were to follow their
understanding, v. 15 would become improbably acrobatic (all quotes NIV):
Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well.
I prefer the interpretation in the notes of The NIV Study Bible, which
understands all the sources of water in vv. 15-18 as referring to the
wife. It points out that wells, cisterns, springs, and fountains were
privately held resources of great value. The passage is simply a
warning against adultery, as summed up in v. 17:
Let them [springs and streams] be yours alone, never to be
shared with strangers.
Compare also Song of Songs, 4:12,
You are a garden locked up, my sister, my bride; you are a
spring enclosed, a sealed fountain.
- Fritz
Frederick P. Herrmann
fr...@mtl.mit.edu
322...@qucdn.queensu.ca
thoughts associated with it...but what about if the fantasized person is purely
a fantasy and does not exist (i.e. can we committ adultery with a non-existent
person?)
Mike (Beaker) Krupicka
{{ This is the end of this thread. -sma }}
This whole thread is getting away from bible-study, but in answer to your
question. The non-existent person is probably based on real people. Also, one
of the reasons that adultery is bad is that it can be harmful, both physically
and psychologically. (This is the basis of many of the OT laws.)
Psychologically, adultery with a non-existent person may affect your marriage
either currently or with your future spouse. If you are in bed with your
spouse, who are you goint to think of, your spouse or your fantasized (real
or non-real) person? I personally would not want to jepordize my relationship
with my future spouse.
Anyway, a good rule of thumb: If it is questionable in your mind, don't do it;
That may be the Holy Spirit's guiding hand.
--
Mike Krupicka
bea...@uiuc.edu
Sing unto Him a new song. Play skillyfully with a LOUD NOISE! - Davey
BJM...@psuvm.psu.edu
{{ The poster is correct that most of the other contributors was male. I'm
allowing this post, but changing the topic to 'Biblical Basis for dealing
with sin'. A more general discussion can spring from this... -sma }}
I kinda of stumbled acoss these posts dealing with this subject. I myself as a
female have been dealing with this. I would say it is a sin, because when I
commit this act, I feel very shameful. The problem is that I am having
problems stopping this act. I know most of the posts where by males, so
as a female I'm not sure of the response I may get. But I can't seem to stop
the desires. I have asked God for help and strength to stop, but seem to
slip and fall again. When I first told someone they showed me the story of
Joseph and Potiphar's wife how he fled temption, I try to flee but it still
cathces up to me and I give in. I know that temption is not sin, but giving
into temptation is sin. I also know that my body is God's temple and it should
not be harmed (Paul's says that somewhere). Can any of you give me some advice
both biblical and moral, that may help me stop what I call a sin. I know God
forgives me when I ask for forgivness, but at some point that sin that you ask
forgivenss for should leave you (right)?
Help.
A confused female.
I am to trust and be faithful, and a child of God. Pure and clean.
Bjm123
Peter V. Homeier
> I kinda of stumbled acoss these posts dealing with this subject. I
> myself as a female have been dealing with this. I would say it is a
> sin, because when I commit this act, I feel very shameful. The problem
> is that I am having problems stopping this act. I know most of the posts
> where by males, so as a female I'm not sure of the response I may get.
> But I can't seem to stop the desires. I have asked God for help and
> strength to stop, but seem to slip and fall again. When I first told
> someone they showed me the story of Joseph and Potiphar's wife how he
> fled temption, I try to flee but it still cathces up to me and I give in.
> I know that temption is not sin, but giving into temptation is sin. I
> also know that my body is God's temple and it should not be harmed
> (Paul's says that somewhere). Can any of you give me some advice both
> biblical and moral, that may help me stop what I call a sin. I know God
> forgives me when I ask for forgivness, but at some point that sin that
> you ask forgivenss for should leave you (right)?
>
> Help.
>
> A confused female.
>
> I am to trust and be faithful, and a child of God. Pure and clean.
> Bjm123
Dear sister, my heart goes out to you. Thank you for your earnest striving.
I cannot tell you how to stop, but I feel with you the pain you are in.
Please let me comfort you with these words:
"Then Peter came to Him and said, 'Lord, how often shall my brother sin
against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?
"Jesus said to him, 'I do not say to you, up to seven time, but up to
seventy times seven." (Matthew 18:21-22, NKJV)
"For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
(Jeremiah 31:34)
Sister, each time you fall, when you repent, He will forgive you. And
even more, He then forgets that you sinned. That means that the next
time, to Him, it is only the first time.
I believe that this is actually a sin, and I believe that it is by no
means as destructive or harmful as fornication or adultery. I have never
seen the Spirit of God deal with this issue except with tenderness and
quiet kindness, without the abrupt challenge that He uses with the other
sins.
I wish I could tell you how to stop, in some simple way, but I don't know
how. The best I can tell you is that masturbation is usually a product
of some lack inside that is needing to be filled, perhaps loneliness or
a feeling of rejection. If so, then that would be the point to pray for
God's help.
Please be encouraged. We your brothers and sisters love you and accept
you, completely, as you are. God bless you sweetly, and give you a
wonderful husband someday to love and hold you! In Jesus's name, Amen.
--
"In your majesty ride forth victoriously in behalf of truth, humility, and
righteousness; let your right hand display awesome deeds." -- Psalm 45:4
__ _ These are my personal opinions: did you listen?
Peter V. Homeier <;_><_ hom...@aerospace.aero.org
Jon Ogden
There is still a debate about wether masturbation is ok or not ok. That is
what I call one of the "grey" areas where I feel everyone's convictions may
be different. Anyhow, this post is not about masturbation, but more about
sin in general, especially in dealing with the grey areas.
( Note: The whole concept of "grey" areas is taken from the text where
Paul talks about meat sacrificed to idols and other matters of conscience.
There are more of them out there than we probably realize.)
Here are my suggestions:
1.) Determine IF what you are dealing with IS really sin. Many times we
believe and follow what others have told us about grey areas and their
convictions w/o really asking the Holy Spirit to show us wether or not it
is right or wrong for us. Our feelings of guilt may be misplaced and may
have just been placed on us by other well-intended individuals. So pray
and consult God that he will show you wether or not what you are concerned
about it really sin. Ask him to show you what is right and to guide you to
go in the right way.
2.) If God shows you that what you have been doing is not wrong, then don't
worry any more. Go on your way and continue to enjoy life and don't allow
the guilt to trap you.
3.) If God shows you however, that the action or whatever is sin then ask
His forgiveness and ask for strength to overcome that sin.
4.) Change your attitude about the sin. Develop a distaste for it.
5.) Realize that you will fall. Psalms say that "The steps of a good man
are ordered by the Lord and he delights in his way. Though he FALL he WILL
NOT BE CAST DOWN." So many times we lynch ourselves when we stumble and
fall. We allow Satan to come in our lives and heap on guilt. We think
that because of our sin we are terrible people and therefore we have tons
of shame. We lose our self-image and think that we are no longer pleasing
to God. This is one of the greatest tricks of the enemy. By making us
feel guilty and unworthy, he essentially blocks our relationship and
communication with God. There is a big difference between feeling a Godly
sorrow and guilt.
6.) Realize that every person has some "problem" sin area in their life and
that as far as God is concerned sin is sin. We as humans like to
categorize sin and make ourselves think that one is so much worse than the
other. This is NOT true. James says that "Whoever keeps the whole law yet
offends it in one point is guilty of breaking all of it." Sin is sin it
keeps us from God. We think however that our individual sins are so bad
and so awful. We think that our particular area is so worse than anyone
elses. Everyone's area of sin is different. Some have problems with
greed, others pride, other sex, language, gossip, etc., etc. Realize that
you are no worse than anyone else.
7.) After falling ask forgiveness and accept God's forgiveness. Forgive
yourself too. God knows that you will fall, yet he still loves you.
Accept that fact. Then get up go on your way, determined not to fall
again, but accept the fact that if you do fall again, God will forgive you.
Learn from your mistakes.
8.) You will over time learn the behavior that tempts you to sin. As you
discover this behavior, begin by changing it. For example, say a man has a
problem with pornography. He is dealing with this given the above steps.
He then begins to realize that just going by the magazine stand tempts him
to induge in looking at the magazines. He then realizes that if he doesn't
go by the magazine stand the temptation to sin will be much less.
Therefore, he changes his habits and the level of temptation drops. It is
silly to needlessly expose ourselves to temptation.
9.) Continue this whole pattern over and over again until you have victory
over the sin. Continually ask God to help you overcome it.
10.) Don't expect to be perfect. God accpets us for who we are and doesn't
expect perfection either. Christ said, "Be ye perfect..." But he means
that we must strive toward that. God is continually remaking us from the
inside out. As we draw toward him more and more the desire to sin will
diminish.
I hope this helps. I could go on expounding some more, and I may latter as
others comment on this. Remember it is your attitude toward the sin that
is the first step and your attitude about where you want to be. I could go
on, but I am hungry and want to go to lunch!!! :-)
In Christ's love,
Kimo B. Yap
>It is the motto of my church (which is made up of disciples that don't
>masturbate and yet are quite healthy and happy) that we should "be silent where
>the Bible speaks and speak where the Bible is silent."
Now hold on. I would be very careful about "speaking where the Bible is
silent." I would put doing this very much in the vein of trying to speak
what God means without having Him to back it up. Sort of like the OT 'prophets'
in Jer. 6:14, or, more succinctly, is this not what is warned against in
Rev. 22:19 about ADDING to the words of the prophecy being condemned just
as much as SUBTRACTING from them? I would agree with being silet where
the Bible speaks in letting it speak for itself, but speaking where it is
silent can (does not have to be, but very can become so) easily leading
to putting one's self on par with God, which is the original sin of
Satan.-kby
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
{{ After email consultation, I agreed to reopen this topic, but would ask
that the thrust of responses follow the questions raised as (1-4) below.
-sma }}
In <C4J1z...@spss.com> cs3...@ibma3.cs.uiuc.edu (Francisco J Merino) writes:
>Is there any chapter of the Bible that treat masturbation ?
Although this subject has been closed off, I would like to re-open it.
Nobody came up with what I consider to be THE scripture in the bible
on this subject, namely Lev 15:16--18. I asked the moderator if I
could reopen this subject. He said that I could on condition that
I talk also on other subjects related to this scripture. I am
begging the moderator to let this document to go through, even
though it is the original one that I meant to send, for although
it does deal mainly with masturbation, I also refer to other subjects,
namely:
(1) What are the limitations placed upon the sex allowed within marriage
(since this scripture also talks about what happens when a man releases
seman when he is with a woman)? (I.e. what kinky sex is allowed?)
(2) What was the purpose of sex --- why did God create it?
(3) How are we as Christians supposed to deal with the old testament
law?
(4) Does Jesus ever exagerate?
But, also while I am on the subject of masturbation, does anyone know
of any good books written on the subject?
Here are some bible verses that I have come with. There is another one, but
I just cannot find it at the moment. These are from the KJV (I usually
use NASB, but I don't have it with me. I got these from my computer.)
Lev 15:16-18
16 And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he
shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the
even.
17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of
copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until
the even.
18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of
copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be
unclean until the even.
Mat 5:27-28
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt
not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust
after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
(There is also a passage in Genesis 38:9 that seems to suggest
that the withdrawal method of contraception is wrong. But I think
that this is the wrong interpretation of that scripture.)
I have been asking several people about this issue recently, including
heated (but friendly) arguments with one of the elders of my church.
On the basis of people that I have asked, I would say that a very large
number of men masturbate. I think that rather fewer women do, but I
don't know a whole lot about that. People tell me that maybe 80% or
90% of the (male?) population masturbate. Men do not talk about it
very much, at least, not the men I know. Of all the men I have spoken
with about it, only in one case was it the other person who raised the
subject.
As for myself, I have fought with this problem for some time. I only
decided that there might be something wrong with it six years ago when
I became a Christian.
Fantasizing
-----------
Mat 5:27-28
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt
not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust
after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5 seems to be saying that fantazising is as bad as adultery. (I
am told that the greek word for adultery does not have the same narrow
meaning that it has today --- sex involving a married person other than
one's spouse --- but that it refers to sexual perversions in general.
But I have not verified this. Well, maybe this is the Hebrew. Can
anyone comfirm or deny this?)
It seems to me that Jesus sometimes exagerates. Indeed the verse
following the ones quoted above say:
Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it
from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy
members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be
cast into hell.
I have never heard anyone preach that plucking out one's eye is a good thing
to do. So I am not so certain that fantazising is quite as bad as adultery.
But I do think that it is very bad.
Many think that one cannot masturbate without fantazasing. I disagree with
this on the basis of personal experience.
Masturbation
------------
My personal experience is that when I masturbate, I feel bad the next day.
Sometimes for several days. I feel tired, and I work less effectively.
I am told that sex with another person energises one. You feel really
great the next day.
Some would say that sex is not just about having good sensations, but is also
about communicating with another person. Masturbating is like talking all
the time to oneself. There is no relationship involved. People who
discuss issues and feel angry and keep this to themselves tend to not
relate with other people.
Masturbating seems to make one be in less of a hurry to get married.
Indeed, in our church, there are many unmarried single people who
really want to get married. Why don't they get together? One reason
may be that they masturbate. So the pressure to have sex is less urgent,
and so people are more choosy about who their future spouse will be.
It says in 1 Cor 6 that it is better to marry than to burn. It does
not say that it is better to masturbate than to burn.
Indeed I have heard it argued that the reason God created sex was to
provide a powerful stimulant to get married. Because being married
is difficult. You have to deal with this person, who by nature
of being the opposite gender is very different from you. As the
husband, you are commanded to love her. As the wife, you are commanded
to submit. Marriage can be very hard, as you are in close relationship
with this person, and you are not supposed to bail out of the relationship.
Even if you find previously unknown faults with your spouse, you
are stuck with him/her. Furthermore, marriage often brings children
with it. Children are very demanding.
Basically, marriage forces one to be less selfish. You wouldn't do it
unless there was some very powerful urge inside you pushing you to do it.
(Unlike what I am told Catholics believe, I do not believe that the
purpose of marriage is procreation. I believe that the purpose of
marriage is to relieve loneliness --- this is what it says in Genesis 2.
I also believe that within marriage that sex is a beautiful thing,
given to us by God as a gift.)
It also seems that those who masturbate relate less in general. Someone
informed me that there is a statistic in the book `All You Wanted To Know
About Sex And Were Afraid To Ask' to this effect. But nevertheless, this book
does recommend masturbation. Indeed most secular advice says that
masturbating is a good thing.
In heaven there is no sex (at least I assume so because there is no
marriage). But we are told that it will be really great in heaven.
So whatever is there must be better than sex. When you have sex
with someone, you immediately feel a bond with that person. Even
if it is only a one night stand. Sex is a relationship tool.
I guess that in heaven that our relationship with God and one another
will be so great that it will be much better than sex. But `the eye
has not seen and the ear has not heard what God has in store for those
who love him' so lets wait and see.
I am informed by those who council man others that men who
masturbate a lot don't enjoy sex so much after they get married.
Many men they have counciled have been unable to stop masturbating after
they were married. They say that in there experience that sex is not
so `climactic' an experience as masturbating. Also,
within marriage, there are times when you and your wife argue. It seems
that a woman has a different constitution than a man. She does not
like to have sex with a guy whom she is having an argument with.
Apparently the experience makes her feel sick, and grosses her out
(unlike men who seem to be sex machines and do not care a whole lot
about the personality of whom they are having sex with --- that was a
gross generality --- strike it from the record if you dislike
stereotyping people).
One woman I know told me that her former husband was greatly into
pornography and masturbated a lot. She said that when she and her
former husband had arguments, he would just withdraw from her and have `sex
with himself.' He would have no reason to make up, and so she was left
feeling horny.
She also said that it was worse than if her former husband had been seeing
other women (which it later turned out he was, but that is another story).
Her husband was not just cheating with one other woman, but with many
many other women. The competition was with very beautiful women who
appeared in magazines and movies. (Women who starve themselves so
that they will look beautiful.) She said that it was destructive to her
own self worth that her husband prefered having sex with his own hand than
having sex with his wife.
One of the elders of my church told me that in his experience
counciling people, that those men that fight masturbation will
eventually succeed. (Of course, getting older helps --- the urge gets
less strong.) Those who do not fight masturbation, but give in to
it, will find that as they advance in years that the problem gets worse.
-----------------------
Recently I realised that if I was to conquer masturbation, that I needed
to know very clearly that it was wrong. All the arguments I have
given up to this point seem to me to be a little contrived, and certainly
based on scripture. So here goes.
Lev 15:16-18
16 And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he
shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the
even.
17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of
copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until
the even.
18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of
copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be
unclean until the even.
The scripture in Lev 15 is amongst a whole bunch of scripture concerning
how women are unclean during their menstrual period or after childbirth.
For their uncleanliness, they had to sacrifice animals. There is no
way that women could stop themselves --- having menstrual periods is
not a choice. Having children is a choice, but the Bible makes it
clear that having children is a good thing. Now as Christians, we do
not worry about menstrual periods, and women certainly do not feel unclean
after giving birth.
Now masturbation is a choice. (Wet dreams I guess is not a choice, and
the Lev 15 scripture seems to deal also with this.) But the penalty is
relatively light. The man, his clothes, and any woman with him, is
unclean, but only for a day, and the only penance required is to wash
themselves and their clothes.
Compare this with breaking the Sabbath (a capital offense) which we
Christians no longer keep. Or eating pork and shellfish. We Christians
don't think twice about eating shrimp or pepperoni on our pizza.
Further, Lev 15 seems to not only deal with masturbation, but also with
kinky sex. Many married couples in our church do, so it seems, engage
in kinky sex. Well, I am not too sure what this entails, and as you
can imagine, these are hard questions to ask people. So I am skimpy
on details here.
I think that a greater understanding of the OT law than I have is required
here. Is it like eating food given to idols as in Romans 14? That is,
masturbation and kinky sex (within marriage of course) are only bad if
one's conscience offends one while one is doing it, but O.K. if it
is done in faith?
One friend of mine (actually a woman) believes that as New
Testament believers, that it is not the letter but the spirit of
the law that matters. She feels that masturbating to relieve
sexual pressure is O.K. She thinks that it is wrong to be `in love
with oneself.'
-----------------------------------------------------
So what do I think?
-------------------
I think that the scriptures in Lev 15 do not apply. If they did, then
we should not be eating shellfish and pork.
I definitely think that fantasizing and reading pornography is bad. It
may not be quite as bad as adultery, but it is close to that. If one
gives oneself to this sin, then I think that it will almost certainly
lead to a depraved lifestyle.
Even if Lev 15 does apply, masturbation is nothing like as bad a sin as
fornication or adultery.
One should attempt to fight masturbation. My experience is that unfought
masturbation leads quickly to fantasizing.
It is a good thing to give up masturbation. You feel miserable after
doing it. If you stop, you may well find your future wife sooner.
You will relate better with other women, and maybe even with other men.
If in your attempt to stop masturbating you fail (this is very likely)
you should not feel condemned. In Romans 8:1 it says that there is
no condemnation for those in Christ. Frankly, of all those I spoke
to who fought masturbation, very few were very successful, at least
until they got married. But they did do a whole lot better than
those who did not fight masturbation (better in that they had less
problems in their marriages, etc).
I also feel that it is important to seek God on this issue. Frankly, we
all have so much sin within us that we are not going to give it all up
on day one of our salvation. I believe that what we see as the highest
priorities in our Christian lives are not the same as those that God has.
God may want you to turn your attention to this sin right now, and conquer
it. Or he might not. Seek him. As God says in Psalm 32:8:
I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou
shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
------------------------------------
I think that it is time that us men stopped being so secretive about
this issue. I would greatly welcome a discussion on this issue. The
scriptures are unclear enough that they need to be discussed. Also,
people's testimonies on the effects of masturbation/giving up masturbation
on their lives would be very helpful.
Yours Stephen Montgomery-Smith ste...@mont.cs.missouri.edu
mat...@umcvmb.missouri.edu
mathsms@umcvmb
Timothy J. Luoma
It seems to me that Jesus sometimes exagerates. Indeed the verse
following the ones quoted above say:
Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it
from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy
members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be
cast into hell.
*end quote from orig post*
This does make sense to me for another reason though... Does your eye have
control over you? Does your right hand cause you to sin? The hand does
not control the head, the head controls the hand, doesn't it? So it would
not make sense (to me) for me to say "My hand caused me to steal, I'll cut
it off" or "My eye caused me to lust, I'll pluck it out". If we were to
do this we would soon have very little body left. If we sin, are not we
forgiven, and told to simply ask God for that forgiveness so that we will
not be separated from Him because of our sin?
If I am misunderstanding this quote, please let me know.
--
Tj Luoma **luo...@alleg.edu**
[NeXTmail Welcomed -- Heck, almost *any* mail welcomed]
"Great warrior .. heh .. wars not make one great" -- Yoda
Andrew McVeigh
> It seems to me that Jesus sometimes exagerates. Indeed the verse
> following the ones quoted above say:
>
> Mat 5:29
>
> And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it
> from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy
> members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be
> cast into hell.
>
> *end quote from orig post*
>
> This does make sense to me for another reason though... Does your eye have
> control over you? Does your right hand cause you to sin? The hand does
> not control the head, the head controls the hand, doesn't it? So it would
> not make sense (to me) for me to say "My hand caused me to steal, I'll cut
> it off" or "My eye caused me to lust, I'll pluck it out". If we were to
> do this we would soon have very little body left. If we sin, are not we
> forgiven, and told to simply ask God for that forgiveness so that we will
> not be separated from Him because of our sin?
>
> If I am misunderstanding this quote, please let me know.
>
In my opinion, this verse can be understood on at least 2 levels.
(1) The literal level: hyperbole is used to show that nothing is
worth keeping if it will cause us to sin and eventually cause us to
be cast into hell. Jesus shows us how seriously God regards sin
by relating it to the cost of losing a part of our body -- something
we can all relate to!
(2) The metaphorical level: The eye is used as a metaphor for the
way we get information. The hand is used as a metaphor for how
we act and how we put out desires into action (the hand and the
eye are mentioned in a similar passage in one of the other Gospels
I think...)
Anyway, this is the understanding I have of the passage from my
reading of the bible, my own (flawed) reasoning, and what I have
read in my bible commentary. I don't think that Jesus seriously
expects anyone to cut their arm off or pluck their eye out
(at least I hope not!) but the example is used to show the seriousness
of sin. Also, Jesus warns us to examine the things in our lives, in the
sense that we must look at the information and the stimulus we receive
from around us, and how we go about achieving
things -- if these things cause us to sin, it is *far* better to avoid
them.
Cheers,
Andrew McVeigh
p.s. I find the passage shown from the bible absolutely amazing. It
shocks the reader by showing that it is preferable to lose
a part of the body than to keep sinning, and on another level
presents a practical way of avoiding sin. Very clever --
but I guess I should expect that from God!
Youn-Sik Han
> From: luo...@alleg.edu (Timothy J. Luoma)
> Subject: Re: Leviticus 15:16-18
>
> *from original post*
>
> It seems to me that Jesus sometimes exagerates. Indeed the verse
> following the ones quoted above say:
>
> Mat 5:29
>
> control over you? Does your right hand cause you to sin? The hand does
> not control the head, the head controls the hand, doesn't it? So it would
> not make sense (to me) for me to say "My hand caused me to steal, I'll cut
> it off" or "My eye caused me to lust, I'll pluck it out". If we were to
> do this we would soon have very little body left. If we sin, are not we
> forgiven, and told to simply ask God for that forgiveness so that we will
> not be separated from Him because of our sin?
I think I should cut my hands and pluck off my eyes, and I want to do it.
Since it is one of the commands that I want to obey.
Then how, can I cut them off from my body?
I want to relate this how-to to self-denial <Mat 16:24>, killing the deeds
of the flesh through the Spirit <Rom 8:13>, and putting off the old man <Eph
4:22>.
What if I cut off the hand of my 'old man' from my heart?
Youn-Sik Han
Aaron Bryce Cardenas
>the Bible speaks in letting it speak for itself, but speaking where it is
>silent can (does not have to be, but very can become so) easily leading
>to putting one's self on par with God, which is the original sin of
>Satan.-kby
Speaking where the Bible is silent only means having opinions. Sorry for any
confusion caused by my not explaining it better.
- Aaron Cardenas
Ryan J Bruner
There is actually a passage in the Bible that deals with personal
convictions outside of the Bible's areas. True, the Bible deals with nealry
every major issue. But small ones are by personal conviction. I suggest
reading Romans 14 for more on this. I would send the personal Study I have
done of Romans 14, but I don't know how to very easily. If any are interested,
however, just send me mail, and I'll send it to you.
Ryan J. Bruner <><
bru...@engin.umich.edu