Demons impersonating dead people
John E. King
squi...@world.std.com (Publius) writes:
>Acts 16:16-19 is about "predicting the future", not medium contacting
>the dead. You are comparing apples to oranges. Furthermore, the
>fact that some demons are capable of performing something supernatural
>(as in Acts 16:16-19) does not imply all such things come from demons.
>If it is your belief that every act of "predicting the future" comes
>from demons and should be condemned, then you are condemning the OT
>prophets and the NT apostles and Jesus Himself, and remember what Jesus
>said to those who accused him of performing miracles by demons!!!
At Act 16:16, it specifically states that "divination " was used
through a spirit. When Paul cast the spirit out of the girl, her
predicting powers were gone. I'm sure you would agree that this was
a demon. At 1 Sam , the Witch of Endor was also employing divination.
This practice was condemned in the Law, and said to be an "abomination".
True, the Law doesn't specifically state that all divination is from
the devil, but if the only account in scripture we have that IDs
the source states it is from demons, why would we assume that some
other divinations are from another source?
But this is not the primary reason why the "personage" that appeared
when the witch conjured it up was not Samual. The primary reason
comes from such passages as Is 26:19; Dan 12:2; Hosea 13:14; Ecc 9:5,10;
and 1 Thes 4:13-14 which picture those who died as unconscious, asleep,
black nothingness. As Dan 12:2 points out, they will be "awakened",
but not until the end times.
Jack
Publius
> At Act 16:16, it specifically states that "divination " was used
> through a spirit. When Paul cast the spirit out of the girl, her
> predicting powers were gone. I'm sure you would agree that this was
> a demon. At 1 Sam , the Witch of Endor was also employing divination.
So you think since both places use the word 'divination', they must be
talking about the same thing, right? Obviously you have great confidence
in your translation. Which translation do you use, by the way?
The word which got translated into 'divination' in Acts 16:16 is the
Greek word 'Python', which, in Greek Mythology, was the name of a Greek
"god" skillful in fortune telling. Acts borrows this word to refer to
a demon skillful in fortune telling. The word translated into
'divination' in 1 Samuel 28 is the Hebrew word 'qasam', which means
sorcery. Though both are condemned by God, 'Python' and sorcery are
two different things.
A much better example is the story of Balaam in Numbers 23. The word
translated into 'divination' is the Hebrew word 'qesem', which comes
from the same root as 'qasam'. So, based on the usage of the words,
the Witch of Endor (1 Samuel 28) was much more similar to Balaam
Numbers 23) than to the demon-possessed girl (Acts 16:16). Note that
no demon was even remotely mentioned or hinted in the story of Balaam
in Numbers 23.
The Witch of Endor was known to Saul as a woman with a 'familiar spirit'
(1 Sam. 23:7). The fact that Saul asked her bring up Samuel, rather than
just channel the answer from her 'familiar spirit', is an indication that,
in this case at least, the supposed function of the 'familiar spirit' is
not in impersonating the dead and speaking through the mouth of the
medium, but in acting as a messenger into the realm of the disembodied
spirits (Sheol/Hades) to bring up the spirit of the dead.
> But this is not the primary reason why the "personage" that appeared
> when the witch conjured it up was not Samual.
But the text in 1 Samuel 28 calls him Samuel. Do you think you are
wiser than the Scripture?
> ... The primary reason
> comes from such passages as Is 26:19; Dan 12:2; Hosea 13:14; Ecc 9:5,10;
> and 1 Thes 4:13-14 which picture those who died as unconscious, asleep,
> black nothingness. As Dan 12:2 points out, they will be "awakened",
> but not until the end times.
Dan. 12:2 and 1 Thes. 4:13-14 talk about the resurrection of the body,
not the "awakening" of the soul, at the end times. They do not support
the notion of 'soul sleep' by any means.
Hosea 13:14 does not really deal with this issue.
The word translated into 'the dead' in Isa. 26:19 and Eccl. 9:5 is the
Hebrew word 'muth', which means 'corpse', from which the soul has
departed. This is the same word used in Gen. 23:3 when it says:
"Abraham stood up from before his dead ..."
where 'muth' refers to the corpse of Sarah. So, it is clear that Isa. 26:19
and Eccl. 9:5 both talk about the unconsciousness of the dead body, not the
soul of the dead. Indeed the dead body, from which the soul has departed,
has no consciousness in itself. The body without the soul is unconscious,
for the consciousness is with the soul, not the body. This is consistent
with the creation of Adam (Gen. 2:7). First, God created Adam's body out of
the dust of the earth. That body did not have consciousness in itself.
Only after God breathed into that body did the man become a living soul.
For Christ and His Kingdom,
-- Publius, from the hills of New Hampshire
Disclaimer: These opinions are mine, all mine, mine alone.
Larry L. Overacker
>
>But this is not the primary reason why the "personage" that appeared
>when the witch conjured it up was not Samual. The primary reason
>comes from such passages as Is 26:19; Dan 12:2; Hosea 13:14; Ecc 9:5,10;
>and 1 Thes 4:13-14 which picture those who died as unconscious, asleep,
>black nothingness. As Dan 12:2 points out, they will be "awakened",
>but not until the end times.
This is not the only reading possible in Scripture. The strongest example
is the Transfiguration, where Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus. Moses,
at least, had died, and his appearance is most succinctly explained by
assumuing that the dead are not dead-and-gone. A second example is from
the words of Jesus to the thief "today you will be with me in Paradise".
And a third example is the crying out of the martyrs in Revelation.
Again, this is not possible if the dead are simply dead-and-gone.
With differing interpretations I rely on two methods for assesssing
which is correct. First, I look at the simplest explanation, and
second, look for the most ancient teaching of the Church. Both appear,
to me, to side with the view of the Communion of Saints held by the
early church and promulgated at Nicea and Constantinople.
Now, this interpretation does not directly address whether Samuel himself
appeared at Endor. Perhaps he did. The actual appearance of Samuel
appears to be the simplest explanation. Even if people are dead-and gone,
his appearance could be explained in whatever manner is used to explain
the appearance of Moses at the Transfiguration.
Larry Overacker (l...@shell.com)
--
-------
Lawrence Overacker l...@shell.com
Shell Oil Company, Information Center Houston, TX (713) 245-2965
David Lehmann
>for the consciousness is with the soul, not the body. This is consistent
>with the creation of Adam (Gen. 2:7). First, God created Adam's body out of
>the dust of the earth. That body did not have consciousness in itself.
>Only after God breathed into that body did the man become a living soul.
Notice that the man *became* a living soul; he did NOT *obtain* a soul.
God's breath of life into a body *is* (NOT has) a living soul.
This destroys all of your arguments that the soul is separate from the body.
>Obviously you have great confidence in your translation. Which translation
>do you use, by the way?
I am using *yours*.
Thus the earlier posting is accurate:
>>But this is not the primary reason why the "personage" that appeared
>>when the witch conjured it up was not Samual. The primary reason
>>comes from such passages as Is 26:19; Dan 12:2; Hosea 13:14; Ecc 9:5,10;
>>and 1 Thes 4:13-14 which picture those who died as unconscious, asleep,
>>black nothingness. As Dan 12:2 points out, they will be "awakened",
>>but not until the end times.
-David