Graven Image
Ingaldorf Hoppenburger
In Exodus 20:4 it states: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is
in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
What is a graven image? Or what is a "likeness" of anything in heaven
or in earth or in the water?
Is this commandment saying that people are not to have a painting
of say, The Last Super. Or a drawing/painting or figurine of Christ on
the cross.
Or is this commandment just saying that people are not to make a
"golden calf" and worship it as a god?
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Dale DePriest
Ingaldorf Hoppenburger wrote:
> In Exodus 20:4 it states: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
> image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is
> in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
> What is a graven image? Or what is a "likeness" of anything in heaven
> or in earth or in the water?
It is not the likeness but the use that matters. A Graven image is one
that is worshipped.
> Is this commandment saying that people are not to have a painting
> of say, The Last Super. Or a drawing/painting or figurine of Christ on
> the cross.
Not unless they decide to worship the image rather than God in heaven.
> Or is this commandment just saying that people are not to make a
> "golden calf" and worship it as a god?
Yes, or a saint who protects them from harm or any other substitute for
the God in heaven. God wants all worship. Do not pray to anyone other
than God since prayer itself is a form of worship (or should be).
Dale
>
>
--
_ _ Dale DePriest
/`) _ // http://users.cwnet.com/dalede
o/_/ (_(_X_(` For GPS and GPS/PDAs
Jacob Rizor
>Subject: Graven Image
>From: ingal...@webtv.net (Ingaldorf Hoppenburger)
>Date: 9/12/2003 10:24 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3f61e549$1...@news.iglou.com>
>
>
>
> In Exodus 20:4 it states: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
>image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is
>in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
> What is a graven image? Or what is a "likeness" of anything in heaven
>or in earth or in the water?
> Is this commandment saying that people are not to have a painting
>of say, The Last Super. Or a drawing/painting or figurine of Christ on
>the cross.
> Or is this commandment just saying that people are not to make a
>"golden calf" and worship it as a god?
>
The "unto thee" is a euphemism for an object of worship. If you make a
painting and worship it, believing the painting is itself a god, you are an
idol worshiper. True even if you merely think the god makes only "part" of
itself resident in the image. Thus the statues and pictures of the Saints and
Mary, icons, and statues of the Buddha are not idols, unless you make them so
by your attitude and belief. Tough to tell whether or no you are doing that- I
have images of Christ, but I do not even face them when I pray to God. They
are merely reminders, bringing my attention back to the doctrine during a busy
day when I might forget to pause and pray.
Matthew Johnson
In article <3f620ea3$1...@news.iglou.com>, Dale DePriest says...
>
[snip]
>It is not the likeness but the use that matters.
Actually, that has been controversial, too. For centuries, the Jews avoided
_all_ pictorial representations except for what was _specifically_ commanded for
the tabernacle (and later the temple) in, for example. Exodus and Deuteronomy.
> A Graven image is one
>that is worshipped.
This too, is controversial. That is why under the Iconclast Emperors, when both
flat images (icons) and statues were destroyed, only the icons were restored,
not the statues.
>> Is this commandment saying that people are not to have a painting
>> of say, The Last Super. Or a drawing/painting or figurine of Christ on
>> the cross.
>
>Not unless they decide to worship the image rather than God in heaven.
But what do you really mean, and what _can_ you really mean, by "worship the
image rather than God"? After all, really, very few people confuse the image for
the prototype. Most people who bow down to an icon know full well that the icon
is NOT God. Yet the _adoration_ is not to the icon, but to God.
>> Or is this commandment just saying that people are not to make a
>> "golden calf" and worship it as a god?
>
>Yes, or a saint who protects them from harm or any other substitute for
>the God in heaven.
Not true.
> God wants all worship.
In which of the many senses of the word 'worship'?
> Do not pray to anyone other
>than God since prayer itself is a form of worship (or should be).
Again, in which of the many senses of the word 'worship'?
After all, 'to pray' originally was just another verb of ASKING. That is where
the 19th century English expression "Pray, tell" comes from.
Roy Mock
"Dale DePriest" <Dal...@cwnet.com> wrote in message
news:3f620ea3$1...@news.iglou.com...
>
>
>
>
> Ingaldorf Hoppenburger wrote:
>
> > In Exodus 20:4 it states: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
> > image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is
> > in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
> > What is a graven image? Or what is a "likeness" of anything in heaven
> > or in earth or in the water?
>
> It is not the likeness but the use that matters. A Graven image is one
> that is worshipped.
Isaiah 44:12-20 picks up the issue and shows how stupid it is to make idols
for worship.
I understand with some religious groups, a symbols contains the essence of
what they represent. Hence they can be objects of desecration.
It's interesting to note that early church forbad any depiction of the
crucifixion in fear that it may be worshipped.
> > Is this commandment saying that people are not to have a painting
> > of say, The Last Super. Or a drawing/painting or figurine of Christ on
> > the cross.
>
> Not unless they decide to worship the image rather than God in heaven.
>
> > Or is this commandment just saying that people are not to make a
> > "golden calf" and worship it as a god?
>
> Yes, or a saint who protects them from harm or any other substitute for
> the God in heaven. God wants all worship. Do not pray to anyone other
> than God since prayer itself is a form of worship (or should be).
>
> Dale
>
> >
> >
>
> --
> _ _ Dale DePriest
> /`) _ // http://users.cwnet.com/dalede
> o/_/ (_(_X_(` For GPS and GPS/PDAs
>
>
)))
BHZellner
>> ... Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
>> image, or any likeness of any thing that is in
>> heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or
>> that is in the water under the earth.
>> What is a graven image? Or what is a "likeness" of
>> anything in heaven or in earth or in the water?
> ... It is not the likeness but the use that matters.
But that's not what the Commandment says, is it?
What is forbidden is not the appropriate use, but the
*making* of images. Photography, representational
artwork of any kind, even engineering drawings or
illustrations in a medical textbook are clearly outlawed.
Do you allow your children to draw pictures, or
play with modelling clay? Is there representational
artwork in your home, or your church?
As best I understand, Muslims and perhaps some of
the most orthodox Jews take that commandment
seriously. There is no such thing as Islamic represen-
tational art, and precious little Jewish. Now and then
we see pictures supposed to represent Jesus, but none to represent Mohammed!
Do you own a camera, or a TV? Are you reading this on a Windows machine or a
Macintosh, with icons and
images all over the screen? Go back to your trusty
teletype machine, it's legal!
There isn't a Christian on earth who believes that
THAT commandment applies to us. Even those who
insist most loudly that they accept and obey all of
the Ten Commandments are strangely blind when it
comes to that one.
Ben
PS: I am being somewhat facetious, of course. But
I must admit that I was disturbed when, maybe 40
years ago, Billy Graham was coming to town and a
six-story-high picture of him was displayed on a local
skyscraper. They don't seem to do that any more.
Dale DePriest
Matthew Johnson wrote:
> In article <3f620ea3$1...@news.iglou.com>, Dale DePriest says...
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>>It is not the likeness but the use that matters.
>
>
> Actually, that has been controversial, too. For centuries, the Jews avoided
> _all_ pictorial representations except for what was _specifically_ commanded for
> the tabernacle (and later the temple) in, for example. Exodus and Deuteronomy.
I wasn't trying to give a history lesson nor represent the views of the
Jews since this is a Chrisian group. But in history it has been
controversial.
>
>
>>A Graven image is one
>>that is worshipped.
>
>
> This too, is controversial. That is why under the Iconclast Emperors, when both
> flat images (icons) and statues were destroyed, only the icons were restored,
> not the statues.
This misrepresents history. The western church, Roman, never desstroyed
anything or even had a question about the controversy. The eastern
church did have a controversy sparked by accusations from Muslims in the
area. They never had full formed statues anyway and resolved the problem
by saying that the icons could be venerated but not worshipped.
>
>
>
>>>Is this commandment saying that people are not to have a painting
>>>of say, The Last Super. Or a drawing/painting or figurine of Christ on
>>>the cross.
>>
>>Not unless they decide to worship the image rather than God in heaven.
>
>
> But what do you really mean, and what _can_ you really mean, by "worship the
> image rather than God"? After all, really, very few people confuse the image for
> the prototype. Most people who bow down to an icon know full well that the icon
> is NOT God. Yet the _adoration_ is not to the icon, but to God.
>
How can you know what is in the mind of most people?
>
>>> Or is this commandment just saying that people are not to make a
>>>"golden calf" and worship it as a god?
>>
>>Yes, or a saint who protects them from harm or any other substitute for
>>the God in heaven.
>
>
> Not true.
True. You are not to pray to anyone other than God. To do so worships an
idol since prayer is a form of worship. And yes I know the Catholic
church practices this but that doesn't make it right.
>
>
>>God wants all worship.
>
>
> In which of the many senses of the word 'worship'?
>
>
>>Do not pray to anyone other
>>than God since prayer itself is a form of worship (or should be).
>
>
> Again, in which of the many senses of the word 'worship'?
>
> After all, 'to pray' originally was just another verb of ASKING. That is where
> the 19th century English expression "Pray, tell" comes from.
>
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but be careful to make sure
your relationship with God is correct. It is important.
Dale
>
--
_ _ Dale DePriest
/`) _ // http://users.cwnet.com/dalede
o/_/ (_(_X_(` For GPS and GPS/PDAs
aquaman
ingal...@webtv.net (Ingaldorf Hoppenburger) wrote in message news:<3f61e549$1...@news.iglou.com>...
> In Exodus 20:4 it states: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
> image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is
> in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
> What is a graven image? Or what is a "likeness" of anything in heaven
> or in earth or in the water?
> Is this commandment saying that people are not to have a painting
> of say, The Last Super. Or a drawing/painting or figurine of Christ on
> the cross.
> Or is this commandment just saying that people are not to make a
> "golden calf" and worship it as a god?
>
Why worry, Catholics don't even have this one.
Aquaman
Loren
ingal...@webtv.net (Ingaldorf Hoppenburger) wrote in message news:<3f61e549$1...@news.iglou.com>...
> In Exodus 20:4 it states: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
> image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is
> in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
> What is a graven image? Or what is a "likeness" of anything in heaven
> or in earth or in the water?
> Is this commandment saying that people are not to have a painting
> of say, The Last Super. Or a drawing/painting or figurine of Christ on
> the cross.
> Or is this commandment just saying that people are not to make a
> "golden calf" and worship it as a god?
>
Reading all the replies so far, I think the primary point has been
over looked. The Decalogue commands are a unit and are summed up by,
"Thy shall not covet." This speaks of the internal having priority
over the external. As Tozer once wrote, "What comes into our minds
when we think about God is the most important thing about us. . .
worship is pure or base as the worshiper entertains high or low
thoughts of God."
What is an "image" or idolatry other than presuming that God is other
than He really is? If the mightest thought that can entertain the
mind of man is thoughts of God, the greatest sin is to have thoughts
unworthy of Him. A right concept of God is basic not only to
systematic theology but also to practical Christian living as well.
The overwhelming problem or question for each age, each assembly, each
individual to weigh carefully is: "That he is; what He is like; and
what we as moral beings must do about Him." The essence of idolatry
is nothing less that thinking or conceptualizing Him as other than He
is. The internal thought life proceeds the external exhibition. No
wood or stone idol was ever manufactored without there first being an
internal concept as to how that image should be rendered.
The Scriptures reveal that God is inconceivable. I think it is in
Jeremiah where God condemns man for thinking Him even as man is.
Elsewhere He reveals, "My ways are not your ways and my thoughts are
not your thoughts." He is simply transcendent and therefore cannot be
represented by anything we can conceive or make. Everything we
conceive or create is something which He revealed or created Himself.
. . and He is separate or transcendent from that which He has made.
Because He is infinite and we are finite, there is nothing which we
can fabricate by hand or mind which represents Him. The only true
representative is Christ (Heb 1:3). Only to an equal could God
communicate the mystery of His Godhead.
And yet Christ's prayer is that we are to be one even as the Godhead
is one and that we might be in the Godhead even as Christ is in the
Godhead (Jn 17:21). THIS is the ministry of the Holy Spirit and only
as one is yielding to the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit does
one catch a glimpse of God's passing: "the spiritual man discerneth
all things." "Blessed are the pure in heart for they saw see God."
We may never see either the Spirit or the Father except via
representations as illustrated in Rev 4-5. Our Representative is
Christ and there is therefore no need for anything other than His
portrait given to us in Scripture.
But specific to your question, there is nothing wrong with a picture
of Christ in your home as long as you understand that all it is there
for is to call to mind the reality as determined by the Scriptures. I
have an old, old picture of Jesus with His hand on the shoulder of a
young man at the wheel of a ship caught in a raging storm. What is
it's purpose or use? Only to remind me that He is always with me and
calling to mind Mt 14:22-33. I also have a painting which must have
been painted in the 1930's- 40's because of the suit the man is
wearing. But the painting illustrates a business man sitting at his
desk having his glass off and tapping his teeth as if in
contemplation, and yet there is there sitting in a chair next to him
the standard fair of Christ lecturing to him. This illustrates for me
the fact that we take Christ every where we go.
> Is this commandment saying that people are not to have a painting
> of say, The Last Super. Or a drawing/painting or figurine of Christ on
> the cross.
The cross should be empty. Though your figurine or painting might
have Christ on the cross, say as Rembrandt's painting of himself
lifting the cross upon which Christ is crucified, it should be only a
reminder of what was done in our stead even as Lord's Supper should be
a reminder. That the figurine or painting has any measure of worth in
and of itself must be completely removed from our thoughts. If the
work is destroyed it means nothing other than the human sentimental
value. It is not the outward but the inward which is of value. If
someone takes a knife and stabs at a picture of Christ, what value is
that? It is a sheer nothingness -except as a revelation of the inner
life of the individual doing such. Nothing is destroyed and nothing
is accomplished. This is the principle that Paul teaches concerning
meat offered to idols. What is an idol but just a dead block of wood?
All of this aside, however, anything which your faith struggles
against must be set aside. Whatever is without faith is sin. In my
own life I know of things that were sinful for me as a child but as an
adult they are a freedom. Christians are not called to live according
to the letter of the law. Ultimately you and Spirit must resolve this
amongst yourselves. It is an inward thing.