Where can I find an expert in New Testament Greek?
pnyikos
Before the lights are turned out on this newsgroup, I hope I can be
given some information on resources for New Testament Greek,
especially someone to whom I can turn to for expert information on
passages in the Bible where translations differ radically.
I am especially interested in something I set up a thread for here a
week or so ago, titled "Christian marriage and divorce." Matt. 19,9
gives adultery as the sole grounds for divorce in most translations,
but the New American Bible instead gives the exception as "the
marriage is unlawful". I've been told by someone who is an expert in
some forms of classical Greek (though not a native Greek speaker) that
the Greek says "fornication".
And some English translations also say "fornication." But since that
word refers in English to intercourse between unmarried people,
perhaps Jesus was saying that they were not really married in the
first place, i.e., the marriage is unlawful. Might the Greek used in
the New Testament also imply this?
Peter Nyikos
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bwme...@toast.net
>
>Before the lights are turned out on this newsgroup, I hope I can be
>given some information on resources for New Testament Greek,
>especially someone to whom I can turn to for expert information on
>passages in the Bible where translations differ radically.
>
>I am especially interested in something I set up a thread for here a
>week or so ago, titled "Christian marriage and divorce." Matt. 19,9
>gives adultery as the sole grounds for divorce in most translations,
>but the New American Bible instead gives the exception as "the
>marriage is unlawful". I've been told by someone who is an expert in
>some forms of classical Greek (though not a native Greek speaker) that
>the Greek says "fornication".
>
> And some English translations also say "fornication." But since that
>word refers in English to intercourse between unmarried people,
>perhaps Jesus was saying that they were not really married in the
>first place, i.e., the marriage is unlawful. Might the Greek used in
>the New Testament also imply this?
>
>Peter Nyikos
>
I believe your question as worded is headed for futility. You are
asking for "an expert . . ." To show what I mean, for example, I can
recommend Dr. Carl Conrad, Dr. Daniel Wallace, AT Robertson. Henry
Alford, and John Gill, for starters. No one knows Biblical Greek, as
far as we know, than any one of these men. It is said of Dr. Conrad
that "he THINKS in (Biblical) Greek!" A retired professor of
Washington University. Dr. Daniel Wallace is the Author of the
wonderful "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics." AT Robertson among the
most well known of Biblical Greek scholars, often referenced by all
others. Henry Alford the author of "The Greek New Testament," a child
prodigy and reverent scholar since the age of six or so, famed all
through his life. John Gill the author of the most thorough voluminous
commentary I know of, and additionally unbelievably accomplished in
Hebrew, the Classics, and Jewish backgrounds.
But the statement, "whenver you have three Jews present you will have
four opinions" applies equally well to the above. This is not to say
that they are of no value: they are of tremendous value, to arrive at
truths of a matter. ("In the multitude of counsellors, purposes are
established.")
But most Greek scholars, like most historians, most Church Pastors,
most scientists, are unbelievers. And this has a tremendous influence
on what comes out of their pens and mouths. Truth and wisdom are
Spiritually discerned, not discerned by man's wisdom (1 Cor. 2:14,
Romans 8:9, etc)
In discerning the meaning of a Greek word or phrase, you may have to
look into a word study on your own (EXCELLENT!), where a particular
scholar you are reading is coming from, in his heart, and therefore
WHY a different scholar comes to a different meaning --- and that will
greatly aid you in coming to your own meaning ---, similarly into how
five or ten different translations render the passage, and how five or
ten different commentators understand the passage.
In the case of the KJV (involving MANY top Grk scholars of all time
--- and therefore an excellent Grk source for meaning in itself), you
do have the problem that they translated into a different (better)
language than the English we speak today. (for example they used
"let" meaning to prohibit, whereas today it means the opposite; they
used " thee and thou" to precisely indicate the singular form of "ye"
and "you" which today could mean singular or plural; they used "vile"
to mean something pedestrian, something of low stature ("village" is a
word meaning that, and derived from it), and not something filthy,
etc, as we use the word today).
I'd love to go on for an hour on this; but will cut it off with a few
suggestions:
1 The B-greek list <b-g...@lists.ibiblio.org>. (Moderated by Dr.
Conrad, above, and others.They suggest some knowledge of Grk; but
emphatically state that all novices and novice questions are very
welcome also. They are sticklers against theological and doctrinal
questions, however, but you can request answers "off-list" on these.
They have a tremendous archive of past postings and discussions you
can look into, also. My other problem with them (other than the ban
against theological and doctrinal discussion) is that most of them
tend to be "liberal."
2 The Online Bible Program. For quality/cost it is tops, IMO. Top
Greek scholars it includes are, eg, AT Robertson and John Gill. You
can also do word searches directly on the Grk (or Hebrew, or Aramaic)
word, along with its specific aspects, tenses, etc. You pay hundreds
of dollars for other software, which is just a hair better; but OLB is
all but free.
3. Dr. Morris' "The Defenders Study Bible
4. Look up a word and its verse in multiple translations, and
compare. New Testament translations are, of course, generally all done
by Greek experts, after all. And good ones, if they don't have an
agenda (like NWT, eg), and if they are Believers. The issue here may
be what Greek texts are they using (Scriveners, Nestle, Textus
Receptus, etc); but in most cases that won't be a serious issue
(sometimes it will) with what you are trying to learn. Some good
translations give notes on the sources and variations in readings.
5. Look up a word and its verse in multiple commentators, and
compare. Initially favor those who are Believers and emphasize the
Deity of Christ and Salvation by Grace through faith alone. They will
tend to be better in every other area, as well. Do they habitually
refer to Christ as "our Lord," etc, as Biblical Believers always did;
or refer to Him as "Jesus," as the moderns, and demons and unbelievers
did in the Scripture narratives?
6. "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" by Dr. Daniel Wallace. As above
comments.
7. Enter quotations, words, references in such search programs as
WebFerret and find MANY refs and studies on the Internet. Many of the
results will be crap; but a good percentage of good ones will also be
there.
8. I have made phone calls and sent personal emails to experts, and
found them to be very willing and helpful, on a particular subject I
had read them on. Just about anyone can call anywhere for free,
nowadays, can't they?
9. Do word studies, not only as to translations and commentators, as
above (BTW, many translations can be read directly on the Internet;
you don't have to have them in your library), but as to occurrences in
KJV or other specifice translations.
10. A few others I have and have gotten value from: New Englishman's
Greek Concordance, Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament,
Alford's Greek Testament, The Companion Bible, The Septuagint, Baker's
Analytical Greek New Testament, Zhodiates' Hebrew-Greek Key Study
Bible, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Many studies
found in Sir Robert Anderson's books, Kenneth Wuest (valuable here and
there), The Interlinear Bible (Jay Green), and others I'm sorry I
forgot to mention.
Bob
PS On "fornication." I've long sought answers on this one (I suspect
it's a very popular question, among Christian men, especially; it
certainly goes beyond merely adultery). Will post some things I've
come up with on it later, hopefully.
pnyikos
Note to moderator: I did a post by accident in which I had all of what
Bob had but nothing else. Needless to say, you need not post it! Nor
need you post this preamble.
On Jan 26, 9:36=A0pm, bwmey...@toast.net wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:39:49 -0600 (CST), pnyikos
>
>
>
> <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >Before the lights are turned out on this newsgroup, I hope I can be
> >given some information on resources for =A0New Testament Greek,
> >especially someone to whom I can turn to for expert information on
> >passages in the Bible where translations differ radically.
> >I am especially interested in something I set up a thread for here a
> >week or so ago, titled "Christian marriage and divorce." =A0Matt. 19,9
> >gives adultery as the sole grounds for divorce in most translations,
> >but the New American Bible instead gives the exception as "the
> >marriage is unlawful". =A0I've been told by someone who is an expert in
> >some forms of classical Greek (though not a native Greek speaker) that
> >the Greek says "fornication".
>
> > And some English translations also say "fornication." =A0But since that
> >word =A0refers in English to intercourse between unmarried people,
> >perhaps Jesus was saying that they were not really married in the
> >first place, i.e., the marriage is unlawful. =A0 Might the Greek used in
> >the New Testament also imply this?
>
> >Peter Nyikos
>
> I believe your question as worded is headed for futility. =A0You are
> asking for "an expert . . ." =A0To show what I mean, for example, I can
> recommend Dr. Carl Conrad, Dr. Daniel Wallace, AT Robertson. Henry
> Alford, and John Gill, for starters.
That's more than adequate! I've had a good bit of success getting
replies from such experts, so I'm optimistic already.
A question about John Gill: I get an 18th century scholar when I look
on line. I'd like someone who can answer questions. Usually the
answers spawn more questions, as I've found out from talking to the
person I referred to in my first post.
>=A0No one knows Biblical Greek, as
> far as we know, than any one of these men. =A0It is said of Dr. Conrad
> that "he THINKS in (Biblical) Greek!" A retired professor of
> Washington University. =A0Dr. Daniel Wallace is the Author of the
> wonderful "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics." AT Robertson among the
> most well known of Biblical Greek scholars, often referenced by all
> others. =A0Henry Alford the author of "The Greek New Testament," a child
> prodigy and reverent scholar since the age of six or so, famed all
> through his life. John Gill the author of the most thorough voluminous
> commentary I know of, and additionally unbelievably accomplished in
> Hebrew, the Classics, and Jewish backgrounds.
Very good! That should keep me busy for a while!
> But most Greek scholars, like most historians, most Church Pastors,
> most scientists, are unbelievers. =A0And this has a tremendous influence
> on what comes out of their pens and mouths. =A0Truth and wisdom are
> Spiritually discerned, not discerned by man's wisdom (1 Cor. 2:14,
> Romans 8:9, etc)
Since I am surrounded by unbelievers most of the time, I am not
disappointed.
> I'd love to go on for an hour on this; but will cut it off with a few
> suggestions:
>
> 1 =A0 The B-greek list <b-gr...@lists.ibiblio.org>. =A0(Moderated by Dr.
> Conrad, above, and others.They suggest some knowledge of Grk; but
> emphatically state that all novices and novice questions are very
> welcome also. =A0They are sticklers against theological and doctrinal
> questions, however, but you can request answers "off-list" on these.
Again, no problem. I think I'll begin with them, and thanks for the
heads-up about theological and doctrinal questions.
> 5. =A0 Look up a word and its verse in multiple commentators, and
> compare. =A0Initially favor those who are Believers and emphasize the
> Deity of Christ and Salvation by Grace through faith alone. =A0They will
> tend to be better in every other area, as well. =A0Do they habitually
> refer to Christ as "our Lord," etc, as Biblical Believers always did;
I was most at home with "Our Lord" most of my life, and it took me a
while to get used to calling him "Jesus" or "Christ" except in
prayer. It helps me understand now why Orthodox Jews get uptight
about the use of any other word except "Hashem" for God. [The word
"Hashem" seems awfully pedestrian to me, compared to the other words
which they could use, but only use in prayer or not at all, but I
respect their feelings on this.]
Thank you for all your tips. You've been very helpful. One more
question...
> Bob
>
> PS On "fornication." =A0I've long sought answers on this one (I suspect
> it's a very popular question, among Christian men, especially; it
> certainly goes beyond merely adultery). =A0Will post some things I've
> come up with on it later, hopefully.
Time is getting short on this newsgroup. Where would you be posting
them?
Peter Nyikos
bwme...@toast.net
>
>A question about John Gill: I get an 18th century scholar when I look
>on line. I'd like someone who can answer questions. Usually the
>answers spawn more questions, as I've found out from talking to the
>person I referred to in my first post.
>
Of the five I mentioned, only Dr. Conrad and Dr. Wallace are yet alive
as far as I know. I wasn't primarily listing those you can enquire
directly to. Dr. Conrad has been very gracious, as he is to everyone,
to me in that regard several times. I don't know about Dr. Wallace
yet, as I have never approached him yet. Dr. Hoehner, author of
"Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ" (part of his doctoral
dissertation, I believe, from DTS) has also been very friendly and
communicative.
But the others' written works are valuable in this respect, also; you
can look up other verses in their commentaries (parallel passages),
see what they do with those, and in a high percentage of cases you
will get your questions answered that way, almost as well as if you
were asking them in person.
Another thing you can do (although it is rare that you can find this
--- and that is a shame; eg, if Chuck Missler would acknowledge the
existence of Dr. Hoehner and his work, and pay just a little attention
to it, a glaring error in some of his own important works would be
eliminated) is commentaries by other commentators on a commentator.
And likewise, that great author, Dr. Henry Morris. His works are
wonderful, but there are some flaws that would have been eliminated if
he had paid any attention to some of the other authors he ignored, on
those subjects.
>>=A0No one knows Biblical Greek, as
>> far as we know, better than any one of these men. =A0It is said of Dr. Conrad
>> that "he THINKS in (Biblical) Greek!" A retired professor of
>> Washington University. =A0Dr. Daniel Wallace is the Author of the
>> wonderful "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics." AT Robertson among the
>> most well known of Biblical Greek scholars, often referenced by all
>> others. =A0Henry Alford the author of "The Greek New Testament," a child
>> prodigy and reverent scholar since the age of six or so, famed all
>> through his life. John Gill the author of the most thorough voluminous
>> commentary I know of, and additionally unbelievably accomplished in
>> Hebrew, the Classics, and Jewish backgrounds.
>
>Very good! That should keep me busy for a while!
>
.. . .
>>
>> 1 =A0 The B-greek list <b-gr...@lists.ibiblio.org>. =A0(Moderated by Dr.
>> Conrad, above, and others.They suggest some knowledge of Grk; but
>> emphatically state that all novices and novice questions are very
>> welcome also. =A0They are sticklers against theological and doctrinal
>> questions, however, but you can request answers "off-list" on these.
>
>Again, no problem. I think I'll begin with them, and thanks for the
>heads-up about theological and doctrinal questions.
>
. . .
>Thank you for all your tips. You've been very helpful. One more
>question...
>> Bob
>>
>> PS On "fornication." =A0I've long sought answers on this one (I suspect
>> it's a very popular question, among Christian men, especially; it
>> certainly goes beyond merely adultery). =A0Will post some things I've
>> come up with on it later, hopefully.
>
>Time is getting short on this newsgroup. Where would you be posting
>them?
>
>Peter Nyikos
Thank you, Peter. (Kinda wondering what your reaction is to my last
post to you?) I delight in some of your other posts, also.
Doubtful I'll make it in time, on "fornication," although I plan to
gather on it today; but got a houseful of guests this afternoon, and
I'm not good for much in the evening.
Sure wish, now that you have showed up, that Steve would relent and
extend for another month!
I still dunno where to go after this is gone. I've been into the
"alt. . ." groups, some of which used to be somehwat good --- but
every last one of them that I know about now has been taken over with
atheists, filth, blasphemy, and ad hominem. There are a few
discussions on various Yahoo groups; but most of them are purely
homiletic (like most churches), not hermeneutic, which I just don't
care for; also, I haven't had much luck in learning how to get my
posts into them --- the moderators tell me I'm doing everything ok,
but somehow very little appears, and no one seems to know why.
Several groups have been suggested to me by persons who left this
group, but I haven't looked into them, yet. I think some of them are
denominational, which might not be too bad. I know that one is
Baptist, but that could mean a lot of things.
Could we keep in touch a bit by email, until one of us finds
something?
I'm planning to work over my long neglected baby website, and try to
turn it into something for discussion, when I learn how to do it.
Bob