New to Religion Has Church Question
J.B. Fletcher
Hello,
I'm new to religion and I'm very frustrated about church. My problem
is I'm trying to be a Christian but I'm finding it difficult to find a
church that fits my description of a church. My description is a
church where the pastor will read passages from the bible, explain
what they mean and then relate it to everyday life, if possible. I
want to hear traditional hymns, have some formality in dress and
procedure and see a cross somewhere. (I know some people think these
things don't matter but I feel if you are in the house of the Lord you
should raise it up a notch.)
Every Sunday I take my bible to a new church with the idea that a
preacher/pastor will actually read from it and give a sermon, but I
get nothing. The last church I went to was called Willow Creek in IL.
I felt like I was at a combination rock concert/motivational show.
Everything seemed dumbed down and the message was a lot of fluff. I
came away feeling like my intelligence was insulted and they had
attempted to manipulate me.
My question to everyone is, is this what church is like today? Are
there any traditional churches around?
((( s.r.c.b-s is a moderated group. All posts are approved by a moderator. )))
((( Read http://srcbs.org for details about this group BEFORE you post. )))
Bart Goddard
J.B. Fletcher wrote:
> My question to everyone is, is this what church is like today? Are
> there any traditional churches around?
About half of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod
congregations do what you say you desire. The
other half have gone the way of Neo-evangelicalism.
You might try to find the LC-MS congregations near you
and go for the ones who say they're "liturgical", and good
luck.
The strict answer to your question is: No, that's not what
the church is like today. The true church is always found
gathered about the Word and Sacraments. When you find
silliness and nonsense, then you have not found the church.
Bart
John McComb
J.B. Fletcher wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to religion and I'm very frustrated about church. My problem
> is I'm trying to be a Christian but I'm finding it difficult to find a
> church that fits my description of a church. My description is a
> church where the pastor will read passages from the bible, explain
> what they mean and then relate it to everyday life, if possible. I
> want to hear traditional hymns, have some formality in dress and
> procedure and see a cross somewhere. (I know some people think these
> things don't matter but I feel if you are in the house of the Lord you
> should raise it up a notch.)
>
> Every Sunday I take my bible to a new church with the idea that a
> preacher/pastor will actually read from it and give a sermon, but I
> get nothing. The last church I went to was called Willow Creek in IL.
> I felt like I was at a combination rock concert/motivational show.
> Everything seemed dumbed down and the message was a lot of fluff. I
> came away feeling like my intelligence was insulted and they had
> attempted to manipulate me.
>
> My question to everyone is, is this what church is like today? Are
> there any traditional churches around?
C of E if you are in England, Anglican elsewhere. Unless you are
in the US in which case it would be Episcopalian. But you will
need to search around a bit to find a parish that meets your needs
and is Gospel centered. If you visit a lot of them you will find
that there are some parishes that are no more than meeting spots
for new age political agendas.
The Anglican liturgy is very traditional and formal. Dress is
casual in some parishes and formal in others. It depends on the
likes and dislikes of the congregation. The sermon follows
three readings from scripture (depending on the season the rule
is one OT passage, one epistle passage and a reading from the
Gospel) and a psalm. Idealistically the readings and the psalm
are connected by a theme and the topic of the sermon follows
that theme. There is a eucharist and all baptized Christians
from any faith are invited to participate (confirmation used
to be required but that's no longer the case).
The only churches that you will find that are more formal and/or
steeped in tradition than the Anglicans are the Roman Catholics
and the Orthodox. But you might find each of those a little bit
demanding. The typical picture of an ordinary (sincerely devout)
Anglican parish is ordinary families from ordinary neighborhoods
with very ordinary kids. As in all denominations, church
attendance has fallen off quite severely in the past thirty or
forty years. Therefore, during your search, you will probably
encounter the phenomena of 'seniors only' congregations. But,
if you are young and have a family, you will find a parish out
there where the young folks gather and it will come complete
with a sunday school.
Yours in Christ
John
Orpheus John
jb_fle...@hotmail.com (J.B. Fletcher) wrote in message news:<ch2c7f$te2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>...
> I'm new to religion and I'm very frustrated about church. My problem
> is I'm trying to be a Christian but I'm finding it difficult to find a
> church that fits my description of a church. My description is a
> church where the pastor will read passages from the bible, explain
> what they mean and then relate it to everyday life, if possible. I
> want to hear traditional hymns, have some formality in dress and
> procedure and see a cross somewhere.
If you really are "New to Religion", from where did you get all of these
conceptions of what you think a church should be? TV? Movies?
Sure, the Word of God should be preached. But, if you really are new,
act like you are born again and rid yourself of the baggage you are carrying
around.
Guy Smiley
jb_fle...@hotmail.com (J.B. Fletcher) wrote in
news:ch2c7f$te2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to religion and I'm very frustrated about church. My problem
> is I'm trying to be a Christian but I'm finding it difficult to find a
> church that fits my description of a church. My description is a
> church where the pastor will read passages from the bible, explain
> what they mean and then relate it to everyday life, if possible. I
> want to hear traditional hymns, have some formality in dress and
> procedure and see a cross somewhere. (I know some people think these
> things don't matter but I feel if you are in the house of the Lord you
> should raise it up a notch.)
Hi JB,
I'm new to this group myself having only found it this evening. But I
think maybe I can say some things that will help.
The kind of preaching that your talking about is called expository
preaching. It's preaching that tries to explain a Bible passage in
relevant terms. My best recommendation is that you try out several of the
churches in your area until you find one that best fits you. I would
recommend the following as strong Bible believing, Bible preaching
churches. I will also include links to the denominational homepages
The Wesleyan Church www.wesleyan.org
The Nazarene Church http://www.nazarene.org/
The Southern Baptist Church http://www.sbc.net/
Conservative Congregational
http://ccccusa.ccccsitelaunch.com/index.cfm/method/content.home
FreeWill Baptist http://www.nafwb.org/
All of these are conservative evangelical denominations. Some of them may
have upbeat music, others will not. You'll just have to experiment with
the churches in your area. Dont get discouraged. It's important for you
to fellowship with other believers. God is faithful to show you where you
should worship if you will keep looking for a church home.
Elizabeth A Brennan, EA
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:23:59 +0000 (UTC), in
soc.religion.christian.bible-study, jb_fle...@hotmail.com (J.B.
Fletcher) wrote:
>
>
>Hello,
>
>I'm new to religion and I'm very frustrated about church. My problem
>is I'm trying to be a Christian but I'm finding it difficult to find a
>church that fits my description of a church. My description is a
>church where the pastor will read passages from the bible, explain
>what they mean and then relate it to everyday life, if possible. I
>want to hear traditional hymns, have some formality in dress and
>procedure and see a cross somewhere. (I know some people think these
>things don't matter but I feel if you are in the house of the Lord you
>should raise it up a notch.)
>
>Every Sunday I take my bible to a new church with the idea that a
>preacher/pastor will actually read from it and give a sermon, but I
>get nothing. The last church I went to was called Willow Creek in IL.
>I felt like I was at a combination rock concert/motivational show.
>Everything seemed dumbed down and the message was a lot of fluff. I
>came away feeling like my intelligence was insulted and they had
>attempted to manipulate me.
>
>My question to everyone is, is this what church is like today? Are
>there any traditional churches around?
You could keep trying till you find a group of believers who meet your
criteria. Or maybe you could ask God to bring you to the church HE
wants you to attend.
If you want "high-church" [where they "raise it up a notch"] you can
find it. You are in a populated area, I'm sure there are a number of
"high-church" opportunities available.
Here is a picture of the interior of the church where God has led me:
http://www.catholic-church.org/st.paulcathedralpgh/current/main-views.shtml
here's another view:
http://www.catholic-church.org/st.paulcathedralpgh/current/site-map.shtml
and here's a view of the exterior
http://www.catholic-church.org/st.paulcathedralpgh/index.html
Every Sunday we sing traditional hymns accompanied by a pipe organ
(you'll see a picture of the pipes if you scan down the first web page
above). We confess that we have sinned through our own fault, we ask
Christ for His mercy, we sing praises to God's Glory. The Lector reads
a passage from the Old Testament and a passage from the letters in the
New Testament, the Cantor leads us in singing a responsorial Psalm, we
stand and sing "Alleluia" and remain standing as the Pastor (or one of
the other priests) reads a passage from one of the Gospel accounts.
Many of us read along with the Lector and the Pastor as they read the
Scriptures. The Pastor (or one of the other priests) gives a sermon
(we call it a homily). Then we celebrate the Eucharist, participating
in the Body and the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ while proclaiming
His death till He comes again.
If you check out
http://www.catholic-church.org/st.paulcathedralpgh/current/desk.shtml
you can find a copy of the current pastoral message which is printed
in the weekly bulletin, giving spiritual direction related to the
message we heard in church that week.
If that's the "raise it up a notch" worship that you are longing for,
you should be able to find that ambiance in Catholic churches,
Orthodox churches, Episcopal churches and Lutheran churches.
Sacramental churches worship God through the Word and the Sacraments
which God has given us. Non-sacramental churches like Willow Creek
try to worship God by singing, clapping and "a combination rock
concert/motivational show".
My best advice to you is to pray, constantly, until God shows you the
church home He has for you!
Dean B.
JB, I see and understand your concerns about church today. Let me
tell you that Willowcreek is not your typical church. It is labeled a
"seeker senstive" church, and spends a lot of energy trying to keep
things "low key" to attract seekers into the church. It's weekend
services are the seeker services, while the service mid-week
(Wednesday & Thursday) are for growing believers. You could check out
one of those services which may be better suited to your liking.
Willowcreek is however an excellent church with Godly leadership in
place. Bill Hypels, the founder of Willowcreek, is an honest man of
God.
Also, the bulk of their disciplship takes place in small groups with
other believers typically mid-week and outside of the church walls. I
would suggest determining what size of church you are interested in as
a factor as well, as the difference between the two (large vs. small)
is often drastic.
A couple of good, bible believing "denominations" are the Evangelical
Free Church of America and Calvary Chapel. I know for a fact there
are some in and around Chicago. You could also check out Moody Bible
in downtown Chicago as an option. Above all, seek God's direction in
finding a body of believers as he now doubt as a place for you. God's
speed in your search.
Rufus
"J.B. Fletcher" <jb_fle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ch2c7f$te2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net...
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to religion and I'm very frustrated about church. My problem
> is I'm trying to be a Christian but I'm finding it difficult to find a
> church that fits my description of a church. My description is a
> church where the pastor will read passages from the bible, explain
> what they mean and then relate it to everyday life, if possible. I
> want to hear traditional hymns, have some formality in dress and
> procedure and see a cross somewhere. (I know some people think these
> things don't matter but I feel if you are in the house of the Lord you
> should raise it up a notch.)
>
> Every Sunday I take my bible to a new church with the idea that a
> preacher/pastor will actually read from it and give a sermon, but I
> get nothing. The last church I went to was called Willow Creek in IL.
> I felt like I was at a combination rock concert/motivational show.
> Everything seemed dumbed down and the message was a lot of fluff. I
> came away feeling like my intelligence was insulted and they had
> attempted to manipulate me.
>
> My question to everyone is, is this what church is like today? Are
> there any traditional churches around?
Try an Orthodox Presbyterian (OPC).
>
> ((( Read http://srcbs.org for details about this group BEFORE you
st. )))
Brian
"J.B. Fletcher" <jb_fle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ch2c7f$te2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net...
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to religion and I'm very frustrated about church. My problem
> is I'm trying to be a Christian but I'm finding it difficult to find a
> church that fits my description of a church. My description is a
> church where the pastor will read passages from the bible, explain
> what they mean and then relate it to everyday life, if possible. I
> want to hear traditional hymns, have some formality in dress and
> procedure and see a cross somewhere. (I know some people think these
> things don't matter but I feel if you are in the house of the Lord you
> should raise it up a notch.)
>
> Every Sunday I take my bible to a new church with the idea that a
> preacher/pastor will actually read from it and give a sermon, but I
> get nothing. The last church I went to was called Willow Creek in IL.
> I felt like I was at a combination rock concert/motivational show.
> Everything seemed dumbed down and the message was a lot of fluff. I
> came away feeling like my intelligence was insulted and they had
> attempted to manipulate me.
>
> My question to everyone is, is this what church is like today? Are
> there any traditional churches around?
>
> ((( Read http://srcbs.org for details about this group BEFORE you
> st. )))
Assuming you don't want to go Catholic, have you tried a Nazarene church?
Brian
John McComb
Elizabeth A Brennan, EA wrote:
> If that's the "raise it up a notch" worship that you are longing for,
> you should be able to find that ambiance in Catholic churches,
> Orthodox churches, Episcopal churches and Lutheran churches.
> Sacramental churches worship God through the Word and the Sacraments
> which God has given us. Non-sacramental churches like Willow Creek
> try to worship God by singing, clapping and "a combination rock
> concert/motivational show".
Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. I was going to say that
(from what I hear) the Lutheran tradition is quite similar
to the Anglican/Episcopalian tradition and I forgot. The
Lutherans are also worth a look. But you need an actual
Lutheran to describe a typical parish experience to you.
Yours in Christ
John
Matthew Johnson
In article <ch60s4$c58$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>, Elizabeth A Brennan, EA
says...
>
[snip]
>Or maybe you could ask God to bring you to the church HE
>wants you to attend.
Now _that_ is a motion I can heartily second!
>If you want "high-church" [where they "raise it up a notch"] you can
>find it. You are in a populated area, I'm sure there are a number of
>"high-church" opportunities available.
>
>Here is a picture of the interior of the church where God has led me:
>http://www.catholic-church.org/st.paulcathedralpgh/current/main-views.shtml
That doesn't look very "high church" to me. The walls are so bare! I can't even
see the Stations of the Cross, which I certainly expect to see in a Catholic
Cathedral. And I don't see very many crosses, either. Why, I can barely see ONE
cross. In a _real_ "high church" building, a shot from that angle would show the
walls _covered_ with the images of the Saints and Christ, and _several_ crosses.
All this is _necessary_ to represent the Church as the Image of the entire
Creation, as documented by St. Maximus the Confessor (yes, he is a saint in the
RCC too) in his Question II Chapter I of his Mystagogia. You can find this work
at http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/greek/maximos/mystagogia.html, or in Russian
translation at http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/greek/maximos/mystagogia.html,
which alas, has a really slow content server.
Alas, I have NOT been able to find it in other languages on the Internet.
Typical!
>here's another view:
>http://www.catholic-church.org/st.paulcathedralpgh/current/site-map.shtml
>and here's a view of the exterior
>http://www.catholic-church.org/st.paulcathedralpgh/index.html
>
>Every Sunday we sing traditional hymns accompanied by a pipe organ
>(you'll see a picture of the pipes if you scan down the first web page
>above).
"Traditional Hymns"? Do you mean Prudentius, Fortunatus, and Ambrose? Now
_those_ were great hymnographers! And they wrote real "Traditional hymns"! See
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/hcc3/htm/iii.xi.xv.htm.
>We confess that we have sinned through our own fault, we ask
>Christ for His mercy, we sing praises to God's Glory. The Lector reads
>a passage from the Old Testament and a passage from the letters in the
>New Testament, the Cantor leads us in singing a responsorial Psalm,
Since the OP is not familiar with Catholic Liturgical terminology, he will
probably assume that the "responsorial Psalm" is an entire Psalm. It usually is
only a few verses (varying from day to day).
>we
>stand and sing "Alleluia" and remain standing as the Pastor (or one of
>the other priests) reads a passage from one of the Gospel accounts.
You don't stand during ALL New Testament readings?
>Many of us read along with the Lector and the Pastor as they read the
>Scriptures.
If you are listening to the Lector and Pastor, why do you need to do this? It's
not as if they still read it in Latin.
>The Pastor (or one of the other priests) gives a sermon
>(we call it a homily).
I remember the good old days, when Catholics knew the difference between a
'sermon' and a 'homily'... But I see from the Dictionary.com entry that the
difference really has been obliterated and confused now. O tempora, O mores!
>Then we celebrate the Eucharist, participating
>in the Body and the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ while proclaiming
>His death till He comes again.
So the bishop is allowing communion in both species in that diocese? Good.
>If you check out
>http://www.catholic-church.org/st.paulcathedralpgh/current/desk.shtml
>you can find a copy of the current pastoral message which is printed
>in the weekly bulletin, giving spiritual direction related to the
>message we heard in church that week.
Will it make sense if you haven't heard the message in church that week? It
seems not, since he refers to the Gospel reading, but so obliquely, that if you
didn't hear it, you need to look it up in the Lectionary. The man who wrote this
needs a more aggressive editor!
>If that's the "raise it up a notch" worship that you are longing for,
>you should be able to find that ambiance in Catholic churches,
>Orthodox churches, Episcopal churches and Lutheran churches.
I thought of that too, but after seeing what his expectations were, I knew he
wasn't ready for a _truly_ traditional Church, one were people observe the
ancient tradition of standing through the whole service, of a cappella singing
of "traditional hymns" written at least as far back as the 4th century,
antiphonal singing of several entire (or nearly entire) Psalms...
>Sacramental churches worship God through the Word and the Sacraments
>which God has given us. Non-sacramental churches like Willow Creek
>try to worship God by singing, clapping and "a combination rock
>concert/motivational show".
And I knew plenty of other people in the NG would agree with his assessment of
Willow Creek -- and explain it well.
>My best advice to you is to pray, constantly, until God shows you the
>church home He has for you!
Now there's some advice that is always good to follow!
--
---------------------------------------
Subducat se sibi, ut haereat Deo. Quidquid
boni habet, illi tribuat a quo factus est (St. Aug. Ser. 96)
farrell2000
jb_fle...@hotmail.com (J.B. Fletcher) wrote in message news:<ch2c7f$te2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>...
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to religion and I'm very frustrated about church. My problem
> is I'm trying to be a Christian but I'm finding it difficult to find a
> church that fits my description of a church. My description is a
> church where the pastor will read passages from the bible, explain
> what they mean and then relate it to everyday life, if possible. I
> want to hear traditional hymns, have some formality in dress and
> procedure and see a cross somewhere. (I know some people think these
> things don't matter but I feel if you are in the house of the Lord you
> should raise it up a notch.)
>
> Every Sunday I take my bible to a new church with the idea that a
> preacher/pastor will actually read from it and give a sermon, but I
> get nothing. The last church I went to was called Willow Creek in IL.
> I felt like I was at a combination rock concert/motivational show.
> Everything seemed dumbed down and the message was a lot of fluff. I
> came away feeling like my intelligence was insulted and they had
> attempted to manipulate me.
>
> My question to everyone is, is this what church is like today? Are
> there any traditional churches around?
>
> ((( Read http://srcbs.org for details about this group BEFORE you post. )))
J.B.,
I'll come right out and say it. If you truly long to know God and
want to be
in the church that Jesus established, than the Catholic church is your
only
option. Two years ago I converted from being a "cradle" Protestant,
with church affiliations ranging from Lutheran to Charismatic, to
being a Catholic.
There is no other church where you will find the fullness of the
faith. I
encourage you on your journey to seek and love God "with all your
heart, all your mind and all your strength" as Jesus said, and there
is no better place
for that than the Catholic church. Look in your phone book for the
one closest to you and run as fast as you can to that church, talk to
the pastor and let him know you are a seeker. ewtn.com has a lot of
resources for learning about the Catholic church and what it teaches
so you might check that out too.
I am always so excited when someone wants to seek Jesus. Don't accept
anything less than God's best. I'd be happy to try to answer any
questions you may have.
J.B. Fletcher
I just wanted to thank all of you for your help. You've given me some
great ideas and I will continue my search in the Chicago area.
My main concern was finding a true Christian church, since I'm still
very ignorant about the different donominations and I was worried I
might wander into a false church or cult. Years ago, I remember some
very strict christians warning a coworker about following false Gods.
They said certain churches appear to teach the word of the Lord but
instead deviate or add to it. I'm sure if I follow your advice this
won't happen.
I'm glad I spoke with you all. You're very nice, helpful people. God
bless!
zach
Bart Goddard <godd...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:<ch60pn$bdn$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>...
> J.B. Fletcher wrote:
>
>
> > My question to everyone is, is this what church is like today? Are
> > there any traditional churches around?
>
> About half of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod
> congregations do what you say you desire. The
> other half have gone the way of Neo-evangelicalism.
>
> You might try to find the LC-MS congregations near you
> and go for the ones who say they're "liturgical", and good
> luck.
>
> The strict answer to your question is: No, that's not what
> the church is like today. The true church is always found
> gathered about the Word and Sacraments. When you find
> silliness and nonsense, then you have not found the church.
I find Calvary Chapel churches to be a nice balance between liturgical
churches and the hyper-evangelical churches, though CC does fall in
the evangelical camp. They typically center messages around a study of
the Bible straight through. Calvarychapel.org You can find
watered-down Gospel or pseudo-Gospel type messages and congregations
in both formal and informal churches. The Lutheran churches might
offer what this guy is looking for, however.
Brian Waugh
Does this sound like what you are searching for? I found it on a
church website in Schaumburg IL.
"Thank you for taking the time to read about us. Our church is unique,
and we invite you to come see for yourself the special niche that
Bethel Baptist Church has in this community. Our motto is "Whatever
the Bible says is so." We are not ashamed of the Gospel, and we stand
unapologetically for the "old time religion." We never seek to
entertain our congregation, but to enrich, educate, and edify it.
At BBC, God is the center, not man. Our biblical preaching
permits us to search the Scriptures during every message. Our music is
rich and traditional in style, exalting the Savior. We love truth and
desire that others would love truth also.
Bethel is available to anyone who is spiritually hungry or
searching for ultimate answers. If this sounds like the kind of church
you are looking for, then we look forward to seeing you here at Bethel
Baptist Church soon. "-
http://www.bethelministries.org/aboutus.html
Matthew Johnson
In article <ch60pr$be6$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>, John McComb says...
>
[snip]
>The Anglican liturgy is very traditional and formal.
What is 'traditional' about ignoring 1 Cor 14:34!
Dress is
>casual in some parishes and formal in others. It depends on the
>likes and dislikes of the congregation. The sermon follows
>three readings from scripture (depending on the season the rule
>is one OT passage, one epistle passage and a reading from the
>Gospel) and a psalm. Idealistically the readings and the psalm
>are connected by a theme and the topic of the sermon follows
>that theme.
'Idealistically'? Again, if they are truly 'traditional', then they will be
following a Lectionary, not their own judgment of what is "connected by a
theme".
>There is a eucharist and all baptized Christians
>from any faith are invited to participate (confirmation used
>to be required but that's no longer the case).
Well, _that_ is obviously not 'traditional' either! Why, you even let slip a
hint of how untraditional it is when you said "USED to be required".
>
>The only churches that you will find that are more formal and/or
>steeped in tradition than the Anglicans are the Roman Catholics
>and the Orthodox. But you might find each of those a little bit
>demanding. The typical picture of an ordinary (sincerely devout)
>Anglican parish is ordinary families from ordinary neighborhoods
>with very ordinary kids.
That is definitely not the picture anymore in the US, especially after the
Episcopalians ordained a 'gay' bishop. Why would "ordinary families from
ordinary neighborhoods with very ordinary kids" put up with such a flagrant
violation of everything the Church has ever stood for?
[snip]
--
---------------------------------------
Subducat se sibi, ut haereat Deo. Quidquid
boni habet, illi tribuat a quo factus est (St. Aug. Ser. 96)
((( s.r.c.b-s is a moderated group. All posts are approved by a moderator. )))
John McComb
Matthew Johnson wrote:
> That is definitely not the picture anymore in the US, especially after the
> Episcopalians ordained a 'gay' bishop. Why would "ordinary families from
> ordinary neighborhoods with very ordinary kids" put up with such a flagrant
> violation of everything the Church has ever stood for?
Your objections are fondly received and noted.
May God Bless you as well, Matthew.
Yours in Christ
John
J.B. Fletcher
Does this sound like what you are searching for? I found it on a
> church website in Schaumburg IL.
>
> "Thank you for taking the time to read about us. Our church is unique,
> and we invite you to come see for yourself the special niche that
> Bethel Baptist Church has in this community. Our motto is "Whatever
> the Bible says is so." We are not ashamed of the Gospel, and we stand
> unapologetically for the "old time religion." We never seek to
> entertain our congregation, but to enrich, educate, and edify it.
> At BBC, God is the center, not man. Our biblical preaching
> permits us to search the Scriptures during every message. Our music is
> rich and traditional in style, exalting the Savior. We love truth and
> desire that others would love truth also.
> Bethel is available to anyone who is spiritually hungry or
> searching for ultimate answers. If this sounds like the kind of church
> you are looking for, then we look forward to seeing you here at Bethel
> Baptist Church soon. "-
>
It sounds great! Thank you for the info and link. I will try this
one along with a catholic church I also found. I'm getting closer!!
Matthew Johnson
In article <chb84s$sb2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>, farrell2000 says...
>
>
>
>jb_fle...@hotmail.com (J.B. Fletcher) wrote in message
>news:<ch2c7f$te2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>...
>> Hello,
[snip]
>I'll come right out and say it.
Then don't be too surprised if others "come right out and say" something too;)
>If you truly long to know God and want to be in the church that
>Jesus stablished, than the Catholic church is your only option.
So now it is my turn to "come right out and say it". If by "Catholic Church" you
mean the one that calls itself "Roman Catholic Church", then no, that has not
even been an option ever since the Roman Church fell away from the worldwide
Catholic Church by forcing the Filioque on the Orthodox, teaching Papal
Supremacy while calling it Papal Primacy, and illegally excommunicated the
Patriarch of Constantinople.
>Two years ago I converted from being a "cradle" Protestant,
>with church affiliations ranging from Lutheran to Charismatic, to
>being a Catholic.
>There is no other church where you will find the fullness of the
>faith.
How can the "fullness of the faith" be found in a 'Church' that teaches the
Filioque? It cannot, since the Filioque itself is a result of the _failure_ of
faith, allowing a rationalist interpolation into divinely revealed dogma, the
interpolation coming from the reasoning of men, NOT from God.
[snip]
--
---------------------------------------
Subducat se sibi, ut haereat Deo. Quidquid
boni habet, illi tribuat a quo factus est (St. Aug. Ser. 96)
((( s.r.c.b-s is a moderated group. All posts are approved by a moderator. )))
Elizabeth A Brennan, EA
On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:38:04 +0000 (UTC), in
soc.religion.christian.bible-study, Matthew Johnson
<matthew...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>
>In article <chb84s$sb2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>, farrell2000 says...
>>Two years ago I converted from being a "cradle" Protestant,
>>with church affiliations ranging from Lutheran to Charismatic, to
>>being a Catholic.
>>There is no other church where you will find the fullness of the
>>faith.
>
>How can the "fullness of the faith" be found in a 'Church' that teaches the
>Filioque? It cannot,
And yet God is still here with us and within us, strong and powerful,
actively at work in us and through us to do His good will!
As to the Filioque argument, I was interested to recently read a
report to the effect that when the Pope was worshiping with a
high-level Orthodox official (a Patriarch, perhaps?) he joined with
his Orthodox counterpart and spoke the ancient creed _without_ the
Filioque.
I don't believe I would have any issue with dropping the Filioque from
the Creed. Nor do I have an issue with retaining it. Those decisions
were made far before my time, so I don't believe I am called to make
any decision about it.
All I need to know is that God has led me to the Roman Catholic
Church, and we are most assuredly actively being about the work which
Jesus has assigned us -- feeding the hungry, proclaiming the word,
caring for the sick, celebrating the Mass, ministering to the poor,
etc.
I don't know if the Orthodox churches are also actively being about
the work of the Lord, other than celebrating the Liturgy. Although we
have several OCs here in this area (probably about 7 or 8) I've never
heard or seen anything about their activities other than their
liturgies.
I agree with farrell2000 (but then you knew that already ;)!) and my
experiences are similar: I was a "cradle" Presbyterian, "born again"
in a Baptist coffeehouse when I was 20, became an actively committed
non-denominational Bible-Only believer (in my 30s and 40s), baptized
in the Holy Ghost in my late 40s and came to the fullness of faith in
the Catholic Church (Roman rite) just this year.
You ask how we can find "fullness of the faith" in this church that
teaches the Filioque. I'll tell you that "the Filioque" is of very
limited interest to most in the Western Church. What IS of interest
to us is being about the work of the Father; being about the mission
that Jesus assigned us.
>since the Filioque itself is a result of the _failure_ of
>faith, allowing a rationalist interpolation into divinely revealed dogma, the
>interpolation coming from the reasoning of men, NOT from God.
Can you explain what you see as the difference between the Filioque
and the rest of the creed? The original creed was the result of a
council as was the addition of the Filioque, no? What do you see as
the difference, which would make you believe the first was "divinely
revealed dogma" and the second "interpolation coming from the
reasoning of men"?
Elizabeth A Brennan, EA
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 00:04:19 +0000 (UTC), in
soc.religion.christian.bible-study, Matthew Johnson
<matthew...@newsguy.com> wrote:
[snip]
>>Here is a picture of the interior of the church where God has led me:
>>http://www.catholic-church.org/st.paulcathedralpgh/current/main-views.shtml
>
>That doesn't look very "high church" to me.
<chuckle> That's cause you have such "high" standards!
>The walls are so bare!
lol! That's cause you can't see the walls! The picture would have to
be about 1.5 - 2" wider on each side to even possibly show some of the
walls :)
>I can't even
>see the Stations of the Cross, which I certainly expect to see in a Catholic
>Cathedral.
The photo doesn't show the side walls of the church, so you cannot see
the stations of the cross - which are molded in bronze, about 3-4 feet
high, 2.5 feet wide and very detailed realistic scenes. They do, in
fact, run along both side-walls of the church.
>And I don't see very many crosses, either. Why, I can barely see ONE
>cross. In a _real_ "high church" building, a shot from that angle would show the
>walls _covered_ with the images of the Saints and Christ, and _several_ crosses.
The biggest cross is in the front, on the right and in that photo it
is hidden by that pillar that's about 10% in from the right. It's a
crucifix that stands just inside the old altar rails, and is I'd
estimate about 12-15 feet high with a full-size corpus. The other
fixed crucifix is in the center of the Apse (it's a bit hard to see in
the photo, but look in the center, about 1/3 of the way up from the
bottom of the photo). Of course, there would also be the crucifix
that came in with the procession - I can't see that in the picture,
but know it would be there! Most of our images are in statue form
(rather than icons)and they are mostly in the white marble in the
front of the church (hidden by the pillars in the photo).
Now, if you want to see some photos of another church where I go
frequently for daily mass, check out the links on the right side of
the page, http://www.stjameswilkinsburg.org/stjames.htm particularly
the link labeled, "St. James Church in Pictures" (long load, lots of
photos). St. Paul's is mostly stone and bronze with some wood, while
St. James is much more wood and lovely colors, so St. James is much
"warmer". Even with all the pictures, you still can't see the
Stations of the Cross, which at St. James are gorgeous jewel-tone
mosaics. The cross on the main altar of the Church is really
incredible (you can see some of the views about half way through the
"St. James Church in Pictures" page).
[snip]
>>Every Sunday we sing traditional hymns accompanied by a pipe organ
>>(you'll see a picture of the pipes if you scan down the first web page
>>above).
>
>"Traditional Hymns"? Do you mean Prudentius, Fortunatus, and Ambrose? Now
>_those_ were great hymnographers! And they wrote real "Traditional hymns"! See
>http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/hcc3/htm/iii.xi.xv.htm.
nah...I meant "traditional hymns" in the sense that I understood the
OP to be using. For most of us in the U.S., "traditional" would mean
Western ("small t") tradition (Catholic or Protestant). Beethoven -
Bach kinda stuff.
[snip]
>>Many of us read along with the Lector and the Pastor as they read the
>>Scriptures.
>
>If you are listening to the Lector and Pastor, why do you need to do this? It's
>not as if they still read it in Latin.
we take in information through the "eye gate" or the "ear gate" --
when you combine them, you take in more information, and possibly you
take it into different areas of the brain. Also, with the
architecture of St. Paul Cathedral, there can sometimes be problems
with the echoes.
[snip]
>>Then we celebrate the Eucharist, participating
>>in the Body and the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ while proclaiming
>>His death till He comes again.
>
>So the bishop is allowing communion in both species in that diocese? Good.
yes. About the only times I've found the cup not offered is if there
are not enough Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (i.e. lay
"Eucharistic Ministers"). As you may know, we have a severe (and
growing) shortage of priests, so we rely heavily on lay Eucharistic
Ministers to help distribute communion. If there are not enough lay
ministers at a given Mass, they will only distribute the Host.
[snip]
>>If that's the "raise it up a notch" worship that you are longing for,
>>you should be able to find that ambiance in Catholic churches,
>>Orthodox churches, Episcopal churches and Lutheran churches.
>
>I thought of that too, but after seeing what his expectations were, I knew he
>wasn't ready for a _truly_ traditional Church, one were people observe the
>ancient tradition of standing through the whole service, of a cappella singing
>of "traditional hymns" written at least as far back as the 4th century,
>antiphonal singing of several entire (or nearly entire) Psalms...
<chuckle> .. many of us aren't ready for that "tradition", bro! Just
like many of us aren't ready for the "traditional" worship service
exemplified by the church in Troas, which had a service that continued
past midnight, and one of the guys fell out of the window where he had
fallen asleep and the preacher (Paul) had to raise him up from the
dead before they came back inside and broke the bread! "Traditions"
change and grow through the years.
>>Sacramental churches worship God through the Word and the Sacraments
>>which God has given us. Non-sacramental churches like Willow Creek
>>try to worship God by singing, clapping and "a combination rock
>>concert/motivational show".
>
>And I knew plenty of other people in the NG would agree with his assessment of
>Willow Creek -- and explain it well.
I spent 5 years in a "cutting edge" Charismatic mega-church with some
of the most profound "worship" (being translated: great musicians,
catchy tunes [often rock style], strong beat, repetitious words, lots
of booty-shaking). We had no Sacraments, no Liturgy, no real
exaltation of Jesus or worship as I've come to know it in a
Sacramental church.
>
>>My best advice to you is to pray, constantly, until God shows you the
>>church home He has for you!
>
>Now there's some advice that is always good to follow!
It took me two years of praying and seeking God to find church home He
had for me!
Elizabeth A Brennan, EA
On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 17:53:24 +0000 (UTC), in
soc.religion.christian.bible-study, jb_fle...@hotmail.com (J.B.
Fletcher) wrote:
>If this sounds like the kind of church
>> you are looking for, then we look forward to seeing you here at Bethel
>> Baptist Church soon. "-
>>
>It sounds great! Thank you for the info and link. I will try this
>one along with a catholic church I also found. I'm getting closer!!
Realize that there will be core differences between the two.
Difference in understanding of truth that will be observable as
differences in practice.
The Catholics will practice closed communion (they will ask you to
refrain from attempting to receive communion until you are in
communion with the Bishop of Rome) while I suspect the Baptist will
practice open communion (anyone who professed belief in Jesus will be
welcome to participate). That's because there is a vast difference in
what the two groups believe about communion. The Catholics believe
Jesus was speaking literally when He said, "This _is_ my body...." and
the Paul was speaking literally when he said that the cup of blessing
which we bless is a true _participation_ in the blood of Christ. I
believe that you will find the Baptists believe that communion is
simply symbolic and representative.
You will find similar differences between the Catholic and Baptist
understanding of baptism: Catholics believe that baptism actually
carries the grace of God within it, while the Baptist believe it is
simply an outward sign of an inner change which took place prior to
the baptism (i.e. the baptism does NOT carry grace within it, but is
simply representative of the grace that preceded it).
Baptist generally look for you to "accept Jesus as your personal lord
and savior" by some outward confession. I don't think they require
much (if any) instruction prior to dunking you as an outward sign of
the inner grace they believe you received when you confessed Jesus,
and then permitting you to become part of their church. The Catholics
will require an actual course of study prior to receiving you into the
Church and giving you access to the sacraments. The Catholics call
this course of study "RCIA" (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults),
which culminates on the eve of Easter at what we call the Easter Vigil
Mass.
A number of parishes are starting their RCIA course right about now,
and usually the first few months are introductory -- no commitments
required. You might want to think seriously about asking the pastor
at that Catholic Church you've identified if you can join into the
RCIA classes so that you can come to understand what Catholics believe
and what they practice. (If nothing else, you can find out why
Catholics bounce on one knee! ;-) )
If you find that the Catholic Church is where God is leading you, you
may be ready to come into full communion with the Church next Spring.
Or... you may find that you are not ready for that step yet, and you
can wait till such time are you are ready to make that commitment.
Matthew Johnson
In article <chk467$tn2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>, Elizabeth A Brennan, EA
says...
>
[snip]
>Can you explain what you see as the difference between the Filioque
>and the rest of the creed?
Somehow, I can't believe that question came out the way you intended. Of
_course_ it is different from the rest of the creed.
> The original creed was the result of a
>council as was the addition of the Filioque, no?
The original creed was the result of three Ecumenical Councils (it was finalized
at the Council at Constantinople), but the addition of the Eilioque was NOT the
result of any _Ecumenical_ Council. But how coudl a local council, whether in
Spain or in Rome, ahve the authority to modify a Creed written by an Ecumenical
Council?
> What do you see as
>the difference, which would make you believe the first was "divinely
>revealed dogma" and the second "interpolation coming from the
>reasoning of men"?
The divinely revealed dogma is that the Father begets the Son, and the Spirit
proceeds from the Father. But the dogma does NOT tell us about the difference
between begetting and procession; it only asserts that a difference exists. The
Filioque pretends to know the difference, and claim that the difference includes
that the Father and Son BOTH give rise to the Procession "in one breathing".
So this claim to know the difference, together with the assertion that Father
and Son do this "in one breathing", is the "interpolation coming from the
reasoning of men"?
Now I realize many readers in this NG are probably thinking as they read this,
~"Huh? So what"~
But you see, one of the results of the long unquestioning acceptance of the
Filioque in the West is that people make lots of assumptions about Trinitarian
theology that are wholly unnecessary, and do not even _realize_ the influence of
the Filioque. Its like a background noise you no longer notice. And if I try to
explain what Trinitarian dogma looks like _without_ the Filioque, you have
trouble understanding it, and go "Huh?".
So, for example, if I tell you that denying the Filioque is important to
preserve the _monarchy_ of the Father, you will either immediately misunderstand
what I mean by 'monarchy', or you will go "huh?". But it is extremely unlikely
that you will understand why the monarchy is so important.
But even within the limitations of this one post, I hope to be able to give you
at least _some_ indication why the monarchy of the Father is so important to us
by referring you to St. Basil the Great:
for we contemplate ONE image, as it were, expressed in
the unchangeability of Divinity, in God the Father and in
God the Only-Begotten. For the Son is in the Father, and
the Father is in the Son. For what the Father is, the Son
is; and what the Son is, the Father is. In this respect
they are one. But by the distinction of persons, they
are one and one (NB: Basil refuses to allow addition here!),
but by the commonality of essence they are both one.
But if we allow dual procession, then the 'one image', so crucial to this
argument, is lost; for in that case, the Son would have one mode of origin,
solely from the Father, while the Spirit has a _different_ mode of origin, being
both from the Father and from the Spirit.
This is why "from the Father and from the Son" has always been rejected, except
when it was interpreted as "from the Father _through_ the Son", as both St.
Maximus the Confessor and St. John of Damascus intepreted it. But Rome did not
rest content with that interpretation.
--
---------------------------------------
Subducat se sibi, ut haereat Deo. Quidquid
boni habet, illi tribuat a quo factus est (St. Aug. Ser. 96)
((( s.r.c.b-s is a moderated group. All posts are approved by a moderator. )))
Matthew Johnson
In article <chlrr9$4gl$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>, Matthew Johnson says...
I think I understand now, why so many people hate touchpads. For it appears that
once more, the touchpad mysteriously moved the mouse cursor so that the '?'
appeared in the wrong place. SO now I will correct the punctuation to make my
previous post more readable:
[snip]
>So this claim to know the difference, together with the assertion that Father
>and Son do this "in one breathing", is the "interpolation coming from the
>reasoning of men"?
>
>Now I realize many readers in this NG are probably thinking as they read this,
>~"Huh? So what"~
Should have been as follows:
>So this claim to know the difference, together with the assertion that Father
>and Son do this "in one breathing", is the "interpolation coming from the
>reasoning of men".
>
>Now I realize many readers in this NG are probably thinking as they read this,
>~"Huh? So what"~?
And the use of '~"' is something I am trying to popularize meaning "approximate
quote" rather than "exact quote".
Sarah Kanary
"J.B. Fletcher" <jb_fle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ch2c7f$te2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net...
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to religion and I'm very frustrated about church. My problem
> is I'm trying to be a Christian but I'm finding it difficult to find a
> church that fits my description of a church. My description is a
> church where the pastor will read passages from the bible, explain
> what they mean and then relate it to everyday life, if possible. I
> want to hear traditional hymns, have some formality in dress and
> procedure and see a cross somewhere. (I know some people think these
> things don't matter but I feel if you are in the house of the Lord you
> should raise it up a notch.)
>
> Every Sunday I take my bible to a new church with the idea that a
> preacher/pastor will actually read from it and give a sermon, but I
> get nothing. The last church I went to was called Willow Creek in IL.
> I felt like I was at a combination rock concert/motivational show.
> Everything seemed dumbed down and the message was a lot of fluff. I
> came away feeling like my intelligence was insulted and they had
> attempted to manipulate me.
Please take your Bible to the local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses and
they will not only open it, read it and show how to apply it, but they will
also teach you how to teach it to others. Just like Jesus Christ did.
(Matt. 11:28-30; 28:19, 20) You will be patiently instructed in how to
cultivate the fruits of holy spirit, how to be a source of refreshment to
others, and how to follow closely in the steps of the Lord Jesus Christ, who
was perfect in obedience to God. (Gal 5:22,23; Heb. 5:8) No collection
plates will be passed.
You will also find that all of this and more will be provided regardless of
your race, nationality, color or political persuasion. All Witnesses are
also expected to dress in a manner that befits ministers of God.
Sarah
--
Luke 6:45 - "A good man brings forth good
out of the good treasure of his heart."
http://www.watchtower.org/
Matthew Johnson
In article <chv6nn$q3$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>, Sarah Kanary says...
>
>
>
>"J.B. Fletcher" <jb_fle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ch2c7f$te2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net...
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm new to religion and I'm very frustrated about church.
[snip]
>> I
>> came away feeling like my intelligence was insulted and they had
>> attempted to manipulate me.
>
>Please take your Bible to the local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses and
>they will not only open it, read it and show how to apply it, but they will
>also teach you how to teach it to others.
Unfortunately, no, they will do none of these things. Instead, they will open it
only in the _physical_ sense, while closing the eye of your soul to the message
contained. They will do this by blinding the eye of your soul with the same
blindness they themselves are afflicted with. And likewise, they will 'read' it
only in the physical sense, probably in a biased translation that obscures the
message, such as the NWT.
Nor will they show you how to apply it; instead, they will show how to mis-apply
it. They will teach you mountains of rationalizations to justify their
misapplication.
> Just like Jesus Christ did.
No, not as all "just like Jesus Christ did".
>(Matt. 11:28-30; 28:19, 20) You will be patiently instructed in how to
>cultivate the fruits of holy spirit, how to be a source of refreshment to
>others, and how to follow closely in the steps of the Lord Jesus Christ, who
>was perfect in obedience to God. (Gal 5:22,23; Heb. 5:8)
They will "patiently instruct" all right, but NOT in how to "cultivate the
fruits of the Holy SPirit". How could they, when they even deny that the Holy
Spirit is God?
[snip]
--
---------------------------------------
Subducat se sibi, ut haereat Deo. Quidquid
boni habet, illi tribuat a quo factus est (St. Aug. Ser. 96)
((( s.r.c.b-s is a moderated group. All posts are approved by a moderator. )))
farrell2000
"Elizabeth A Brennan, EA" <eabr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<chk469$tn8$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>...
> ((( Read http://srcbs.org for details about this group BEFORE you post. )))
What I wish I could understand is "why are there differences in the
first place?" Jesus said he wanted us to be one "as I and the Father
are one" and the traditions and liturgy of the Catholic church have
been passed down from those first apostles and been preserved for 2000
years. Please think about this J.B. before making your decision. Go
with God, not with what feels good at the moment.
maxos
> I don't know if the Orthodox churches are also actively being about
> the work of the Lord, other than celebrating the Liturgy. Although we
> have several OCs here in this area (probably about 7 or 8) I've never
> heard or seen anything about their activities other than their
> liturgies.
And of course my dear you will never know .That's the command of our
Lord.
At 10th century an Orthodox Liturgy changed Russians and became
Christians. The beauty of our liturgy. And in our Liturgy we don't
sacrifice again and again Christ but we receive communion ,body and
blood ,the one sacrificed and resurrected body of Christ , all the
people, clergy and faithful.
So I suggest Orthodox Church to receive communion all the body and
blood of Christ in your Liturgy.
Matthew Johnson
In article <ci7qlg$9jm$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>, maxos says...
>
>
>
>> I don't know if the Orthodox churches are also actively being about
>> the work of the Lord, other than celebrating the Liturgy. Although we
>> have several OCs here in this area (probably about 7 or 8) I've never
>> heard or seen anything about their activities other than their
>> liturgies.
>
>And of course my dear you will never know .That's the command of our
>Lord.
In case Maxos's choice of expression is not clear, please allow me to explain
that this IS our interpretation of Mat 6:2-4. And we are even bold enough to
apply this to a great many other virtures as well, NOT just to almsgivings.
Recall the verses read:
"Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you,
as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets,
that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you,
they have received their reward. But when you give alms,
do not let your left hand know what your right hand
is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your
Father who sees in secret will reward you. (Mat 6:2-4 RSVA)
>At 10th century an Orthodox Liturgy changed Russians and became
>Christians. The beauty of our liturgy.
Although Western historians would be quick to point out that there must have
been many other factors prominent in Grand Prince Vladimir's mind in this
decision, we must not forget that his decision really _was_ a historic example
of the power of the beauty of the Orthodox Liturgy. And this beauty should be
understood NOT as being merely of form, but of substance. But such an
understanding is too rare these days, when people are no longer in the habit of
listening with rapt attention to the words (for various reasons, language
difficulties being near the top of the list), nor of heeding the deep
_symbolism_ so well described in the Mystagogia of St. Maximus the Confessor on
line at:
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/greek/maximos/mystagogia.html
in the Greek original, and at:
http://st-jhouse.narod.ru/biblio/maximus_myst.htm
in a somewhat free Russian translation. The Summary at the end (marked in the
Russian with an anchor labeled 'Zakljuchenie' is especially important, and makes
a good introduction to the whole idea.
Unfortunately, the Greek copy did _not_ mark this. The easiest way to find it is
to go to Chapter 32, then look for the paragraph beginning with the words "Dia
de to eumnhmonoueton".
I can give only a small sampling in this post as follows:
Begin hastly xlate------------
Let us not then leave the holy Church of God, which has done so many things for
our salvation according to the holy order of the divine symbols ... the gift of
the Chrism of Sonship in the Holy Spirit given through holy baptism ... let us
not live like the pagans who do not know God, in the passion of desire; but, as
the Holy Apostle says, "having put to death the members that are upon this
earth, adultery, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is
idolatry, for which wrath is coming down upon the sons of faithlessness, and set
aside every anger, and wrath, and shameful speaking, and lie", and in a word,
all the old man, who is perishing according to the desires of deception, setting
aside the passions together with the deeds, let us walk worthy of God who calls
us to His Kingdom and glory; dressed in the bowels of compassion, kindness,
humility, meekness and long-suffering. Bearing up with one another in love
(agaph), being graceful with each other if anyone has a cause for complaint with
another, just as our Lord was graceful with us...
End xlate-------------------
[snip]
--
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Subducat se sibi, ut haereat Deo. Quidquid
boni habet, illi tribuat a quo factus est (St. Aug. Ser. 96)
((( s.r.c.b-s is a moderated group. All posts are approved by a moderator. )))
maxos
Thank you Matthew. I think that the first thing that the Church of
Christ must do ,and I believe does , it is το gives in the
persons what has, Christ. Like poor Peter and John did in Act 3
:1-10.
Act 3:6 But Peter said, No silver and gold exists to me, but what
I have, this I give thee. In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene,
rise up and walk.
Lisa Rajigah
Matthew Johnson <matthew...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<ci3lss$ljo$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>...
Dear New to Religion,
There are many good bible study quides on the market. I enjoy reading
my bible and asking God for wisdom in understanding His word. Getting
to know the Lord through His word will help you in knowing who His
sheep are. It's a struggle to find a church that meets all of our
needs. I'm beginning to understand it's not what I can get from a
church, but what I can give of myself to the church. Each one of us
has gifts and abilities to offer. I pray you find the place that needs
your gifts.
Jason Arsenault
jb_fle...@hotmail.com (J.B. Fletcher) wrote in message news:<ch2c7f$te2$1...@nikalinux.nikaconsulting.net>...
> Hello,
>
> My description is a
> church where the pastor will read passages from the bible, explain
> what they mean and then relate it to everyday life, if possible.
Hi J.B.,
I understand that you are searching for a bible teaching church.
Please see the link below. We are quite a ways away from you, but you
can listen to our pastor's bible teachings online. We pray that you
will find a church that you can call home, but until then, please be
blessed by the verse by verse teaching of God's word.
www.atheycreek.com/teachings.php
In Christ,
Jason Arsenault
Karen Bond
Dear J.B. Fletcher
You are not the only person who has a problem meeting the criteria of a good
church to attend, I believe that the sabbeth should have stayed on Saturday
as outlined by God in the Ten Commandments, but I do not feel that the
Seventh Day Adventists meet my needs in other aspects. The fact is, most,
not all Christian Churches out there have some keys to the truth but they do
not hold all the keys. As I see it you have three choices. First choice is
pick one and go with it, it may not meet all the criteria of a good church
but it is something, Two open your own church under the spirit that guides
you, or three practice within your own home, at least you know that you
would be practicing it correctly to your own concience, but remember where
two or more in the Lord there He will be also.
Hope that you find what you are looking for
William Bond