The meaning of 'Satan'
Leila Jenkins
I've just met up with some Jehovah Witnesses and we have been having an
interesting conversation regarding the concept of Satan. Now I understand
the general Baha'i view of Satan which I explained to them but they pointed
out to me the story of Job where God is speaking to Satan and they were
asking me who Satan was in this context. I was wondering whether anyone
could shed any light on how the Satan mentioned in this story can be
explained by a Baha'i viewpoint? I'd really appreciate it if any answers
could be backed up by specific Baha'i writings so that I could look into
this further myself.
Hope my question makes sense. I can clarify if needed.
Baha'i greetings
Leila
Susan Maneck
>the general Baha'i view of Satan which I explained to them but they pointed
>out to me the story of Job where God is speaking to Satan and they were
>asking me who Satan was in this context.
Dear Leila,
I don't know that there are in specific references to the reference to Satan
found in the Book of Job, but I can tell you a little about this story from the
standpoint of academic biblical scholarship. The figure of Satan first appears
in the Book of Job and there he is clearly depicted as a servant of God, in
fact His prosecuting attorney. The word 'satan' literally means accuser.
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Matt Menge
rI6Qx2...@giganews.com>...
It is interesting to note that in most of the cases where Satan
appears in the Bible, there is no real eyewitness. In Job there is of
course no one to see Satan speaking with God. Likewise when Jesus is
tempted by Satan in the desert there is no one but Jesus to witness
it. So Jesus Himself must have related the story, and of course,
Jesus often speaks in parables.
The interpretation I have heard is that Satan as represented in Job,
means that the people who were jealous of Job. For example, the
people were saying that Job was only righteous because God bestowed
wealth upon him.
Best Regards,
Matt
Winona Lineberger
Would it help to tell your JW friends that the Book of
Job is a legend, of nonexistent characters from a land
that never existed? It's like a parable, a
lesson-teaching story of Temptation, Pride,
Enlightenment and ultimate Humility. In fact, God's
supreme and final answer to Job's many queries comes
when Job says, rather despondently, "I just don't
understand You." And God replies, "That's right, Job,
you just don't understand."
Period.
I love it! I have reveled in all the arguments and
shared all its complete range of human emotions.
Whoever set it down among the great stories of the
Scriptures showed "divine judgment and wisdom." We
can learn so, so much about ourselves from Job.
Who was "Satan?" A literary invention: the Accuser.
It's an analogy. Would you like the Strong Biblical
scholarly research? I can find it for you. The word
Satan means "Accuser." Nowhere does the book of Job
i.d. the Accuser as the devil whom Christians
personify as Tempter rather than Accuser.
Job = "Everyman"; Satan = the Accuser and
Perpetrator--nowhere does Satan tempt Job; Job's
friends = his lawyers for the defense and the
prosecution; Job's wife = Despair, Sin. The friends
and Job's wife are the Tempters. Job is all of us.
His tribulations are great because they are supposed
to encompass every kind of sorrow and trial we face in
our lives.
Job is one of the greatest didactic fiction stories of
all time.
Bye for now,
Winnie
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
Suzanne Gerstner
<<It is interesting to note that in most of the cases where Satan
appears in the Bible, there is no real eyewitness. In Job there is of
course no one to see Satan speaking with God. Likewise when Jesus is
tempted by Satan in the desert there is no one but Jesus to witness
it. So Jesus Himself must have related the story, and of course,
Jesus often speaks in parables.>>
Dear Matt,
Good point. Also, at one point Jesus calls His loyal disciple Peter,
"Satan", when Peter is admonishing Christ to look after His own well-being:
Mark 8:33 'But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked
Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things
of God, but the things of men." '
So it seems that to Jesus Satan is a concept -- putting the things of men
before the things of God -- rather than some sort of actual being.
Peace and blessings,
Suzanne
john ludgate
Nice quotes on a goodly path. I hope that you won't mind if I add a few
cents worth.
Baha'u'llah has said in His Epistle to the Son of the Wolf: "This charge of
fomenting discord is the same as that imputed aforetime by the Pharaohs of
Egypt to Him Who conversed with God (Moses)." And in the Kitab-I'Iqan He
says "Observe, how those in whose midst the Satan of self had for years sown
the seeds of malice and hate became so fused and blended through their
allegiance to this wondrous and transcendent Revelation that it seemed as if
they had sprung from the same loins."
It seems to me that Satan is always related to thinking about the self and
making yourself better than others and quarreling and discord and not about
peace and unity and Truth which the Word of God brings to man. Egypt and the
Pharaoh and Israel refer to any people being enslaved in the entanglements
of worldly desires by the Pharaoh of self in the wilderness of remoteness.
Moses led the people out of Egypt and away from the torments of the Pharaoh
into the promised land of Truth and certainty and peace. Each Manifestation
bringing verses from God tries to provide a path out of the wilds but the
people have a hard time to see the Truth. May the Light of Truth guide us to
the Path of unity, love and brotherhood. Moslem, Jew, Christain, Bahai and
non believer all are one people waiting to be sprung from the same spiritual
loins fertilized by Holy Spirit from the One True God of us all.
And at the end of the Kitab, Baha'u'llah notes: "And whoso shall withdraw
from the remembrance of the Merciful, We will chain a Satan unto him, and he
shall be his fast companion." I believe that we will find our way to the
Frequented Fane in the Shade of the Sadratu-l-Muntaha with the guiding hand
of the All Loving, All Merciful, All Bountiful One.
With loving kindness,
john
On 3/27/03 3:29 AM, "Suzanne Gerstner" <suzanne....@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
dmcadam
Hi Winnie-
I just love your explanation of the word satan and Job etc. Is it
possible to have you send me the Strong version for my class at the Jail?
I sure would appreciate it.
Thanks much,
doug
dmcadam
Hi John-
I appreciated the points you raised here because I have been feeling some
confusion about the use and meaning of the term"Satan" and "satan". The
scholars seem to agree that in the original language it meant "accuser"
but this does not seem to be how Baha'u'llah is using the term. So who
is right?
regards,
doug
Winona Lineberger
Gladly I'll send you the Strong research. Just give
me a couple of days. Maybe I'll just send it directly
to you, since Leila and others haven't shown any
interest at all in my message. By the way, I hope to
find out if the "Satan" Baha'u'llah mentions is the
"Shaitan" of Islam--and therefore somewhat different
from the Christian concept. Interesting.
Take care,
Winnie
Susan Maneck
>find out if the "Satan" Baha'u'llah mentions is the
>"Shaitan" of Islam--and therefore somewhat different
>from the Christian concept.
Dear Winnie,
It is the same word, if that is what you mean.
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Susan Maneck
>scholars seem to agree that in the original language it meant "accuser"
>but this does not seem to be how Baha'u'llah is using the term. So who
>is right?
>
Dear Doug,
It isn't a matter of being right or wrong. In this case the meaning of words
had changed. When Baha'u'llah used the word Satan it was a symbol for our own
selfish desires. But that isn't what the writer of Job had in mind when he used
the word. We can see the same thing with the term Gehenna. This was originally
a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem, but eventually the word comes to mean hell,
both in Hebrew and Arabic.
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
dmcadam
Hi Susan-
Ah yes, now I see what you mean. Words to change their meanings over
time. Maybe because the spirit changes. In any case how do you know
that when Baha'u'llah used the term *satan* He meant
>"it was a symbol for our own
>selfish desires."
regards,
doug
Susan Maneck
>that when Baha'u'llah used the term *satan* He meant
>>"it was a symbol for our own
>>selfish desires."
Dear Doug,
Because of the context in which He used this word.
"Observe, how those in whose midst the Satan of self had for years sown the
seeds of malice and hate became so fused and blended through their allegiance
to this wondrous and transcendent Revelation that it seemed as if they had
sprung from the same loins." KI 112
"It is evident that these souls, vile and miserable as the beetle itself, have
had no portion of the musk-laden breeze of eternity, and have never entered the
Ridván of heavenly delight. How, therefore, can they impart unto others the
imperishable fragrance of holiness? Such is their way, and such will it remain
for ever. Only those will attain to the knowledge of the Word of God
that have turned unto Him, and repudiated the manifestations of Satan ."
KI
122-23
"However,
the widespread differences that exist among mankind and the prevalence of
sedition, contention, conflict and the like are the primary factors which
provoke the appearance of the satanic spirit. Yet the Holy Spirit hath ever
shunned such matters. A world in which naught can be perceived save strife,
quarrels and corruption is bound to become the seat of the throne, the very
metropolis, of Satan . How vast the number of the loved and chosen ones of God
who have lamented and moaned by day and by night that haply a sweet and
fragrant breeze might blow from the court of His good-pleasure and dispel
altogether the loathsome and foul-smelling odours from the world. However, this
ultimate goal could not be attained, and men were deprived thereof by virtue of
their evil deeds, which brought upon them the retribution of God, in accordance
with the basic principles of His divine rule." Gleanings, TAB 176-77
And we have this reference to the Evil One:
"Watch over yourselves, for the Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you.
Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of thename
of the All-Seeing God, make your escape from the darkness that surroundeth you.
Let your vision be world-embracing, rather than confined to your own self.. The
Evil One is he that hindereth the rise and obstructeth the spiritual progress
of the children of men." Gleanings, 94-95
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Winona Lineberger
"New Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible"--a
monumental work! But it gives all the (not many) times
the word/name appears in which passages of the Bible,
that's all. So I took the companion to Strong's,
Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old & N. Testament
Words, which was used before as a reference. Here's
what I found: p. 547: satanas (Greek word and #4567,
which is the Strong reference): A Greek form derived
from the Aramaic (Heb. Satan), "an adversary," is used
(a) of an angel of Jehovah in Num. 22:22 (the first
occurrence of the Word in the OT); (b) of men, e.g., 1
Sam. 29:4; Ps. 38:20; 71:13; four in Ps. 109; (c) of
"Satan," the Devil, some seventeen or eighteen times
in the OT; in Zech. 3:1, where the name receives its
interpretation, "to be (his) adversary,"...
In the NT (New Testament) the word is always used of
"Satan," the adversary (a) of God and Christ, e.g.,
Matt. 4:10; 12:26; Mark 1:13; 3:23; 26; 4:15; Luke 4:8
(in some mss.); and many others.
His doom, sealed at the Cross, is foretold in its
stages in Luke 10:18; Rev. 20:2, 10. Believers are
assured of victory over him, Rom. 16:20.
The appellation was given by the Lord to Peter, as a
"Satan-like" man, on the occasion when he endeavored
to dissuade Him from death, Mt. 16:23; Mark 8:33.
"Satan" is not simply the personification of evil
influences in the heart, for he tempted Christ, in
whose heart no evil thought could ever have arisen
(Jn. 14:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15); moreover his
personality is asserted in both the OT and the NT, and
especially in the latter, whereas if the OT language
was intended to be figurative, the NT would have made
this evident. See DEVIL. (OK but first, more SATAN.)
(end of citation). The next reference is from Vine's
too, pg. 213-214, much more detailed.
Regards,
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com
john ludgate
While I do believe that words can change over time, I do not believe that
the concepts that underlie the word will change. A rose is a rose by any
other name as they say. In this case it is Satan or the Evil One as
described in the old and new testament and on down through the Light of
Baha'u'llah. It seems to me if you look up Satan or the "Evil One" in the
writings of Baha'u'llah, you might get a clearer picture of Baha'u'llah's
usage. It is curious that Evil One is capitalized. There are many references
in the Gleanings and elsewhere but here is one example which could indicate
that the Evil One or Satan is an adversary of the Cause who is too possessed
of self to really embrace the truth of the Cause: "That which can make Me
ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in
fact follow the Evil One." It might be that it is capitalized because the
Evil One is usually a person who believes in God but has not recognized the
current Revelation of the Unknowable Creator of all Light and so uses the
Word to oppose It.
With loving kindness,
john
Susan Maneck
>was intended to be figurative, the NT would have made
>this evident.
Dear Winnie,
I don't think so. The New Testament treatment of the demonic is much stronger
than that of the Tanakh, primarily because during the inter-testamental period
there is a lot of influence from Zoroastrianism. That's why we don't see all
the demons running around in the Gospels back in Old Testament times.
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Winona Lineberger
Can you give us any Baha'i sources for the info?
Winnie
Winona Lineberger
The quote you disagree with is not mine, it's directly
from Vine. As for your final statement,"That's why we
don't see all
> the demons running around in the Gospels back in Old
> Testament times" a clarification: the Gospels
superceded the Old Testament times, so they are two
separate periods by at least one+ generation. I'm
going to check out "Shaitan" because I don't think
Baha'u'llah used "Satan." It's English, it's
basically Judeo-Christian, and Baha'u'llah's ambience
was Muslim, wasn't it? So He would not have used
"Satan," but rather the Farsi or Arabic terms,
wouldn't He? I know that during one brief course on
"demonology"--a diversion from our studies on the
nature of angels--there was a distinction made among
the terms "demon," "devil," "Lucifer," "Satan,"
"Shaitan" and many others. In some religious
persuasions they are overlapping terms but with
(slight) differences of nature, characteristics, roles
and attributes. So far in our perusal of Satan, we
have focused more on the roles of accuser, adversary
etc. "Demon" would apply to his/its nature, would it
not?.
Hair-splitting? Maybe, but isn't it fun? Not to
mention the collateral info we can glean, and the
endless new channels open to exploration and
discussion. Love,
Winnie
Amy Lugsch
volume of six about prophecies of the second coming, goes into great detail
on the meaning of 'Satan' and 'The Evil One' . It can be ordered online at
www.globalperspective.org
-Amy
"Winona Lineberger" <winnie...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:D7WdnX_M6qd...@giganews.com...
john ludgate
We live on the same island but unfortunately I hear more from you in this
cyber space than face to face in our beautiful island space.
I usually use "Ocean" to do lookups like this one. The Baha'u'llah quote was
from p. 117 of the Gleanings. All of the rest is just my honest search for
truth put poorly into words.
Unrelated rambling:
I am celebrating my third anniversary as a Bahai right about now and I
believe that you declared a while before me near the temple in Apia. It was
three years ago that I thought I was a Bahai until I found out that some
supposed I needed to sign a card first and found out about declaring. Seems
like so long ago but it was election time 3 years ago in Tafuna when the the
LSA accepted my declaration. Ya Baha'u'l'Abha,thanks and praise to the Glory
of the Most Glorious for leading me to the Point of all knowledge and the
Surest Handle. Also thanks to Bill Hyman's kindness in loaning me some key
Bahai history books and the internet for providing good access to the
writings. Maybe we can join together for another Ruhi book. The Satan of
self continues to pull at me but I do believe that the Force is with me and
I am continually and eternally thankful for the grace that put me on the
higher road.
It is not part of this thread at all but I feel that I would be remiss if I
did not report how I feel the so called "Genesis diet" to go hand in hand
and dovetail even with Bahai Spirituality and would like to mention it to
see if it resonates with any other Friends or lights a path. This recent
fast time leading into the new year was really great for me since I have
been doing mainly fruits and veggies for the past year and found that I
could fast rather easily even though I was traveling 8,000 miles from home.
Some guidance can be found in Arnold Ehret's Mucusless Diet and the "Fit for
Life" books. This also seems to match somewhat with Baha'u'llah's Tablet of
Food and some other writings where He says meat is not necessary. Let me say
goodbye as I am starting ramble far afield but away from Satan (the evil
adversary), I surely do hope and pray. Good to hear from you too Winnie and
I pray that our next talk is in person.
May the Rose of Sharon shed it's fragrance on you and me and all on this
list,
john
TibblesTerror
of satan. Satan (the angel) seen himself as separate from God's will/command
and therefore it is understood that satan is man's selfish nature; his
unwillingness to reject this false image of us and Him (God)...Just my littel
understanding...
Stacey Acevez
Susan Maneck
>idea
>of satan.
Dear Stacey,
Usually the Qur'anic story of Satan's fall is associated with pride and
prejudice. As you know the elimination of prejudice is one of the major
principles in the Baha'i Faith. There term usually translated as prejudice in
the Writings is ta'assub which can also be translated as fantacism. According
the Imam Ali the first expression of prejudice (ta'assub) was on the part of
Satan when he refused to bow down to Adam, claiming that he, Satan, was greater
than Adam because he was made of pure fire whereas Adam was made of clay.
The story in the Qur'an is as follows:
"71. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: “I am about to create man from
clay:
72. “When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of
My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.”
73. So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together;
74. Not so Iblis: he was haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith.
75. (Allah) said: “O Iblis! what prevents thee from prostrating thyself to
one whom I have created with My hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the
high (and mighty) ones?”
76. (Iblis) said: “I am better than he: Thou createdst me from fire, and him
Thou createdst from clay.” (Surih 38)
Ali states in regards to this, that "the enemy of God is the leader of
Muta'assbin (bigoted, fanatical.)" He continues His "he felt proud over Adam by
virtue of his creation and boasted over him on account of his origin. and the
fore-runner of the vain. It is he who laid the foundation of factionalism,
quarrelled with God about the robe of greatness, put on the dress of
haughtiness and took off the covering of humility."
http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Susan Maneck
>So He would not have used
>"Satan," but rather the Farsi or Arabic terms,
>wouldn't He?
Dear Winnie,
Shaitan is the Arabic for Satan as well and is found in the Qur'an and the
Baha'i Writings. Sometimes Baha'u'llah uses the term ahrimans as well, though
always in the plural which is interesting. There are a lot of loan words in
Arabic which come directly from the Hebrew. Another example is Gehenna which
was the garbage pit outside of Jerusalem, a site which was considered cursed
because the Canaanites used it to sacrifice babies. It is the word which Jesus
used to refer to the burning torment which would afflict the sinful in the
afterlife, in other words, hell. Gehenna becomes Jehenna in the Arabic and is
the word used for hell both in the Qur'an and the Baha'i Writings.
> I know that during one brief course on
>"demonology"--a diversion from our studies on the
>nature of angels--there was a distinction made among
>the terms "demon," "devil," "Lucifer," "Satan,"
>"Shaitan" and many others
Besides Shaitan the devil is sometimes called Iblis in the Qur'an. I've not
checked to see if Baha'u'llah uses this term but I would expect He would.
Lucifer literally means the 'bright one.' The reference to him found in Isaiah
"How are thou fallen O Lucifer, son of the morning." is a prophecy regarding
the fall of the King of Babylon who was claiming to be the god of the morning
star.
>. In some religious
>persuasions they are overlapping terms but with
>(slight) differences of nature, characteristics, roles
>and attributes.
They come to overlap through history. The fallen Lucifer comes to be associated
with a larger myth of Satan as a fallen angel. This is already occuring in the
Book of Enoch written during the intertestmental period. It is rather like the
sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. In Genesis the sin was inhospitality of which male
rape was simply the worst example. But by the time of the New Testament and the
Qur'an, it is sodomy itself which was the sin.
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
cbre...@northlink.com
> found in Isaiah "How are thou fallen O Lucifer, son of the morning."
> is a prophecy regarding the fall of the King of Babylon who was
> claiming to be the god of the morning star.
Do you think that there is any relationship between Lucifer - the
"bright one" and Mirza Yahya - the "morn of eternity" based on what
Baha'u'llah wrote about Mirza Yahya in the Epistle to the Son of the
Wolf?
"Reflect upon these words addressed by Him Who is the Desire
of the world to Amos. He saith: 'Prepare to meet thy God, O Israel,
for, lo, He that formeth the mountains and createth the wind, and
declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning
darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, the Lord,
the God of Hosts, is His name.' He saith that He maketh the
morning darkness. By this is meant that if, at the time of the
Manifestation of Him Who conversed on Sinai anyone were to
regard himself as the true morn, he will, through the might and
power of God, be turned into darkness. He truly is the false dawn,
though believing himself to be the true one. Woe unto him, and woe
unto such as follow him without a clear token from God, the Lord of
the worlds." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 145-146
Carl Brehmer
cbre...@northlink.com
> While I do believe that words can change over time, I do not believe
> that the concepts that underlie the word will change.
I think the concept of Satan has changed with this Revelation.
The primary conceptual change presented in the Baha'i Writings is
that Satan is something within oneselves not some outside
influence.
Carl Brehmer