Former Bahai has a question.
Ellen Green
I left the Bahai Faith about 5 years ago after a disturbing encounter
with a local spiritual assembly. My question is why do you think a
Spriitual Assembly would accept into membership a person who was using
the faith as a way to destroy a marriage? This is what happened to
our family. A woman was infatuated with my husband, found out that he
was a Bahai, attended firesides became a member, and proceded to tell
her local spiritual assembly that my husband was involved in an affair
with her. We were forced to meet (seperatly) with her assembly( Who
because they were a large and powerful assembly declared jurisdiction
over us, because our group wasn't large enough to have an assembly).
We were asked very personal questions about our marriage and family
life. We were accused of back biting, because we had warned other
assemblies in the area( not the one we met with by the way) about what
was happening.
After the fact, she accomplished what she had set out to do. When she
knew that she could not have my husband she set out to take what was
most important to him, his dignity and his faith. My husband was
slandered, we could never again be comfortable in a Bahai gathering,
our children were horrified and tunred away from the Faith. My heart
was broken, and my faith in the Local Assemblies ruined. I felt I
could not continue to be a Bahai. My heart still belongs to
Bahaullah. But I cannot participate knowing that local assemblies are
filled with people who pray on misfortune.
Robin Baylor or Fred Capp
Ellen Green saith:
>I left the Bahai Faith about 5 years ago after a disturbing encounter
>with a local spiritual assembly. My question is why do you think a
>Spriitual Assembly would accept into membership a person who was using
>the faith as a way to destroy a marriage?
Having seen it myself from both sides then I would have to say
"simple ignorance."
LSA's have not been granted anything quite resembling infallibility.
I'm certain that everybody here can tell you a "stupid assembly
story" of some sort. Some of those stories that I've heard make yours
look like a morning walk. We are all just people who are trying to do
our best with what little we understand.
Now, I have a question:
You say "My heart still belongs to Bahaullah," yet, you say that you
abandoned His community when it needed you most. How do *you* intend
to help heal this problem?
--
Fredrick B. Capp
If communication were a strong point in this world,
Wal-mart would be selling maypoles by the million
& violence would be studied by professors as a quaint
historical conceit.
Thomas K. Dye
J.K.A. Singh-Rathore
"Ellen Green" <mgree...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_GN7XC.A....@bounty.bcca.org...
Dear Ellen,
I was saddened to read the dramatic end of your marriage, and the agonising
experiences your family have had to go through. There are a number of
others who have left the faith. There seem to be two main causes: the
individuals came to realise that they had irreconcilable philosophical
differences with the teachings, and the individuals who have had serious
differences with other believers.
While I strongly sympathise with the way in which you have perceived the
role of the LSA and the woman who allegedly caused embarrassment to you and
your family, I do not see why you have had to take the drastic step of
leaving the faith for those reasons.
Of course, others have also have left the faith: some due to irreconcilable
philosophical disagreements with the teachings themselves, which is quite
understandable. However, leaving the faith because of quarrels with fellow
believers, in my opinion is a form of self-destruction.
> I left the Bahai Faith about 5 years ago after a disturbing encounter
> with a local spiritual assembly.
There are two aspects to the Baha'i institutions: the divine aspect which is
the investiture of Baha'u'llah, and the human aspect. To put it in poetic
terms: the divine that descends from Heaven, and the Human that rises from
the world. Somewhere they are supposed to meet each other, and serve the
world as lighthouses to the human society.
However, we human beings are not perfect; probably shall never be. Yet we
hope that there is room and opportunities to tread toward perfection. That
is called faith, and hence it is the Baha'i Faith, not "doctrine."
The individuals who are elected to serve the institutions are merely
personnel. Like anyone else, they arise from amongst us, and potentially
carry with them almost every character flaws and personality disorders any
of us is bound by the law of nature to carry. However, collectively as a
body, their individual set backs can be outweighed by the collective wisdom
and prudence. This is true even in the cases where there are only nine Baha
'is in the community, and they are mandated to form an assembly without an
election.
>My question is why do you think a
> Spriitual Assembly would accept into membership a person who was using
> the faith as a way to destroy a marriage? This is what happened to
> our family.
Baha'u'llah has given the right to all human beings to proclaim their faith
in Him and His Message, and has obliged all His institutions to accept the
word "of honour" of the individual without question. Therefore, no assembly
has the authority to reject an individual's proclamation of faith. The LSA
in question has acted in accordance with the writings of Baha'u'llah.
> A woman was infatuated with my husband, found out that he
> was a Bahai, attended firesides became a member, and proceded to tell
> her local spiritual assembly that my husband was involved in an affair
> with her. We were forced to meet (seperatly) with her assembly( Who
> because they were a large and powerful assembly declared jurisdiction
> over us, because our group wasn't large enough to have an assembly).
Technically every individual has the right to take up their grievances to
their LSA which has the jurisdiction. If the woman took hers to her LSA,
that LSA is obliged to address the issue and seek or develop remedies to her
problems.
However, both the situation and the issues are quite blurred. The facts are
known to only your husband and, for the lack of a better word, the
"plaintiff." It is a classic situation of "he says, she says and you say."
Even trained professionals, such as, the lawyers, prosecutors and the judges
find it extremely difficult to form a conclusion that is satisfactory to all
parties. Hence, I do not blame the "personnel" of the assembly in the event
their conclusions or decisions turned out to be even damaging to one or all
the parties.
> We were asked very personal questions about our marriage and family
> life. We were accused of back biting, because we had warned other
> assemblies in the area( not the one we met with by the way) about what
> was happening.
Mistakes may have happened. Past cannot be changed. However, there are
always channels and means of rectifying them. You could have taken up the
matter to the national assembly. However, frankly speaking, by bringing up
the issues on this forum, have you not confirmed that accusation of
backbiting? Backbiting is not a mortal sin. Nevertheless, the definition
of what may constitute backbiting is extremely arbitrary, and is bound vary
from one individual to another. Personally, I believe that when an
aggrieved party takes the relevant issues to the authorities, or the
assemblies, it does not constitute a case of backbiting.
> After the fact, she accomplished what she had set out to do. When she
> knew that she could not have my husband she set out to take what was
> most important to him, his dignity and his faith. My husband was
> slandered, we could never again be comfortable in a Bahai gathering,
> our children were horrified and tunred away from the Faith.
I am no agony uncle, but by turning away from the community, you may have
only strengthened any lingering suspicions that the alleged incongruencies
were true. If you and your husband were in the right, it is also your
obligation to have made that point clear to the community. Self-exile does
not serve that purpose at all.
>My heart
> was broken, and my faith in the Local Assemblies ruined. I felt I
> could not continue to be a Bahai. My heart still belongs to
> Bahaullah. But I cannot participate knowing that local assemblies are
> filled with people who pray on misfortune.
Of course, anyone in your position would be heartbroken. Otherwise, you
would not be human. However, I do not agree that one should leave the faith
altogether because the "personnel" of the assembly were inept or incapable
of handling an issue, especially the one that is as delicate, as sensitive
and as blur as the one you have cited.
As you probably know, unless you have philosophical disagreements with the
teachings of Baha'u'llah, you are still a Baha'i even while you may be
living in self-exile. For more clarifications, I also strongly recommend
you to read and re-read the writings on the status of the assemblies and
individuals.
In conclusion, I would like to remind you that Baha'i assemblies are as
fallible as its "personnel." But there is hope for those who have faith in
them.
--JKA
Brussels, BELGIUM
Ellen Green
How do I intend to go on or improve things? I am here this is a first
step. I have recieved two responses which have made me feel connected
again. I remember a conversation I had many years ago with a wonderful
Persian lady whom I called Mamajan ( Mrs Banani) she told me " Be the
only Bahai" Love Bahaullah like you are the only Bahai. Maybe I'll
start there. I am still not comfortable contacting the assembly or
even attending events. But I can read and pray and try to gain
strength to face the Assembly in question and tell them how much they
hurt me, my husband and family. I may write to the NSA and share my
feelings with them.
Robin Baylor or Fred Capp" <cadr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<HcTHGB.A....@bounty.bcca.org>...
> Ellen Green saith:
> >I left the Bahai Faith about 5 years ago after a disturbing encounter
> >with a local spiritual assembly. My question is why do you think a
> >Spriitual Assembly would accept into membership a person who was using
> >the faith as a way to destroy a marriage?
Matt Menge
Well, in my view, a disciplinary act by the assembly might have been
appropriate. What I think really needs to change, on the other hand,
is our attitudes towards people who have lost their administrative
rights. These are not terrible people and they probably would remain
unnoticed in the greater society. If the assembly should be called to
question for punishing them, then certainly everyday Baha'is should be
questioned for meting out 'personal punishments'. Personally, when
someone loses some administrative rights, I am actually nicer to them
than before hand. And to be honest, I think others should do the
same.
Best Regards,
Matt
"Ellen Green" <mgree...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<_GN7XC.A....@bounty.bcca.org>...
> I left the Bahai Faith about 5 years ago after a disturbing encounter
> with a local spiritual assembly. My question is why do you think a
> Spriitual Assembly would accept into membership a person who was using
> the faith as a way to destroy a marriage?
> This is what happened to
> our family. A woman was infatuated with my husband, found out that he
> was a Bahai, attended firesides became a member, and proceded to tell
> her local spiritual assembly that my husband was involved in an affair
> with her.
So you are basically saying that there was no affair and this was just
a three-ring circus?
We were forced to meet (seperatly) with her assembly( Who
> because they were a large and powerful assembly declared jurisdiction
> over us, because our group wasn't large enough to have an assembly).
> We were asked very personal questions about our marriage and family
> life. We were accused of back biting, because we had warned other
> assemblies in the area( not the one we met with by the way) about what
> was happening.
Well, I wouldn't worry about that. You're actions do not sound like
backbiting. There is a specific exemption for discussing such matters
with authority figures.
>
> After the fact, she accomplished what she had set out to do. When she
> knew that she could not have my husband she set out to take what was
> most important to him, his dignity and his faith. My husband was
> slandered, we could never again be comfortable in a Bahai gathering,
> our children were horrified and tunred away from the Faith.
So why could you never be comfortable at a Baha'i gathering? That
seems to be a little extreme. Even people who have lost their voting
rights should be comfortable in Baha'i gatherings. I'm a little
unclear as to how you husband was slandered. It sounds as if it was
only a few assemblies who knew about it, and you had a chance to clear
it up before them.
I will admit that there seems to be a mistaken attitude of Baha'is
towards those who have lost administrative rights. It often seems
like they feel the need to mete out 'personal punishments' towards
those already punished by the assembly. In my mind I think just the
opposite is true. We need to be especially kind to those who have
lost such rights.
To be honest I am confused on a number of points
1. Was you're husband actually doing something wrong?
2. Did he lose any administrative rights?
3. How was he slandered?
Usually the decisions made by an assembly never leave the room.
4. How did the Baha'i community react?
Obviously you are not obligated to answer these questions. I am not
accusing you of anything, but you're story is a bit confusing to me.
Best Regards,
Matt
John Ludgate
Hello Ellen,
Lot's of love and prayers for you from Pago Pago. Pray to our Lord for help
with the tests of life. Good luck. May the mercy of the all merciful be with
you. Talk to the Beloved Friend who is always there. No one walks in
another's steps but I would suggest to forgive all involved and you can find
your way back to an even greater happiness and peace. Try to look at
misfortune as opportunity. Easy for me to say, I know.
warmest greetings,
john
on 4/4/02 7:59 PM, Ellen Green at mgree...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> I left the Bahai Faith about 5 years ago after a disturbing encounter
> with a local spiritual assembly. My question is why do you think a
> Spriitual Assembly would accept into membership a person who was using
> the faith as a way to destroy a marriage? This is what happened to
> our family. A woman was infatuated with my husband, found out that he
> was a Bahai, attended firesides became a member, and proceded to tell
> her local spiritual assembly that my husband was involved in an affair
> with her. We were forced to meet (seperatly) with her assembly( Who
> because they were a large and powerful assembly declared jurisdiction
> over us, because our group wasn't large enough to have an assembly).
> We were asked very personal questions about our marriage and family
> life. We were accused of back biting, because we had warned other
> assemblies in the area( not the one we met with by the way) about what
> was happening.
>
> After the fact, she accomplished what she had set out to do. When she
> knew that she could not have my husband she set out to take what was
> most important to him, his dignity and his faith. My husband was
> slandered, we could never again be comfortable in a Bahai gathering,
> our children were horrified and tunred away from the Faith. My heart
Karen Bacquet
Dear Ellen,
I'm sorry that you had to experience that. I myself left membership in the
Baha'i community behind three years ago, and practice my faith privately as
an unenrolled Baha'i. I think you are to be commended for not letting human
injustice tear your faith in Baha'u'llah away from you.
There is a very disturbing tendency among Baha'is to blame the victim. A
Baha'i can love and serve the Faith for decades, putting up with minor
annoyances and major hurts, yet when they reach the uttermost limit of human
endurance, they are still blamed for leaving the community. I find this
attitude quite heartless. If the message of Baha'u'llah is indeed one for
all mankand, then we must make more allowances for human frailty than we do.
Why are people who serve on institutions to be allowed endless forgiveness,
but not the Baha'i who finds community life disturbing to their peace and
sanity?
Ellen, I wish you the best in your spiritual walk, and I hope you find
somewhere the support and sympathy you need. There are a lot of Baha'is
like you in cyberspace -- and as far as I'm concerned, if your "heart still
belongs to Baha'u'llah", then you are still a Baha'i.
Love, Karen
--
"The essence of all that We have revealed for thee is Justice . . ." --
Baha'u'llah
Ellen Green <mgree...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_GN7XC.A....@bounty.bcca.org...
>
Richard Logan
On 4/6/02 10:15 PM, "Karen Bacquet" <karenb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> There is a very disturbing tendency among Baha'is to blame the victim. A
> Baha'i can love and serve the Faith for decades, putting up with minor
> annoyances and major hurts, yet when they reach the uttermost limit of
human
> endurance, they are still blamed for leaving the community.
I personally feel that it is very important for the Friends to be
independent of the actions of each other and not take personally the actions
of others. IMO it would also be wise to not generalize about the behavior of
Baha'is.
Baha'is in most respects are no different than rest of humanity even though
we have the expectation that Baha'is have moved past many common weaknesses.
The problem as I see it lies in the fact that recognition of the truth is
not the same as acting the truth.
The thing we do are very disillusioning and for this reason the Master is
always advising us to see the one good quality instead of the nine bad
one's. A person can only control their own behavior if even that and not
that of other's. But if one does improve their own life it does effect the
lives of others. We have a lot of growing up to do as a human race and
Baha'is will be tested. Everyone is being tested. That's how we move
forward--being tested --making mistakes; and be retested.
It's very, very difficult and my heart goes out to folks who are suffering.
Baha'u'llah promises we will not be tested beyond our endurance. Sometimes
that doesn't seem like much solace, but I feel most everyone does want to
move forward as a person and we have to treat our difficulties as
opportunities to grow. What good would it do to let negative things get the
best of us? We need to resist our baser instincts or what is the good of our
Faith?
Mirza Haydar Ali tells a story in his autobiography the Delight of Hearts
where he almost lost his faith because of something that happened (a mighty
test) for brevity's sake I won't elaborate. Suffice it to say that he was
so shaken spiritually that he vowed to never blame the Baha'is for anything
they did but would assume responsibility personally for whatever befell him.
Richard
Javan Barzakhi
Dear Ellen,
I am really sorry to read about your bad experience. Unfortunately, many
Baha'i take the LSA as very authorities figures and don't see the human and
personal side of them. LSAs, dare I say even NSAs, make mistakes, as we all
make mistakes. We just need to deepen ourselves with the teachings and the
administrative order, so we can identify when something is going wrong and
try to bring it to their attention.
I find it hard to believe that you could give up so easily after your
dealings with your LSA. As Barbara suggested, why didn't you talk to your
Auxiliary Board member? Why didn't you contact the NSA?
If I were you, I would find out who my Auxiliary Board member for protection
was and discus the my concerns with him/her.
As Robin said everyone has their stories with their assemblies. Mine very
minor compared to yours but it might be worth while sharing with your. A few
years ago when I was getting married to my non-Baha'i wife, my parents found
out that my wife-to-be had insisted on alcohol being served to her guests at
the reception. My parents being Iranian who had just arrived in Australia
were horrified. So at the next feast they located the chairman and the
secretary of the LSA and put a rather innocent question to them as to
whether or not alcohol can be served in our wedding reception.
What unfolded the next was amazing! My father next to these two men were
trying to lecture me on what I had little control over. Totally incorrect
actions from these members of LSA whom seemed to be flamed with illusion of
grandeur. They talked about all sorts of things, including removal of
administration rights. I only listened adding more fuel to their baseless
ramblings. My father was clearly happy. Of course someone with his knowledge
of the writings and the admin. order should have known better not to do
that.
My wife-to-be found out about the incident and clearly was upset, in what
she called an intrusion in our private affairs. Then she turned around and
said they have no control over her actions how can they make such a request
of a non-Baha'i? All among I assured her what had transpired was just a
simple misunderstanding.
I knew of the existence of a handbook for LSA which was published by
Australian NSA. I found a copy and a reference to the exact same situation.
Naturally I was right in not forcing my beliefs on my wife-to-be. I picked
up the phone and called the secretary of LSA and told him how my wife had
developed a low opinion of the LSA, even though he could have been speaking
for the LSA! I then explained how he had single handily damaged months of
work I had done to bring her closer to the Faith. I then landed the final
blow by referring him to the handbook. I asked him as the secretary to take
the matter to the next meeting of the LSA and his involvement. What followed
was a personal apology form the secretary to my wife.
My point of this long winded story, which is in no way comparable to your
story, is that we need to deepen ourselves with the teachings and the
administrative order for times like this, where LSAs, members of the LSA and
other Baha'is make mistakes.
I see the LSA's role as a facilitator for the communities. If they start
exercising power or manipulated believers then they are wrong and I would
stand up to point that out to them, privately of course.
So in summary, if you have been wronged by the LSA you have the right to go
to them and authorities above them and report them. Shying away is not going
to solve your problem, nor it is going to improve the situation.
This of clearly your test, please do fail your test.
Kind regards,
Javan.
Dempsey Morgan
Dear friends, His Holiness Abdu'l Baha said if there is love and unity
and the LSA comes to a decision which is wrong He will see that it is
correct. The correctness of any decision of an LSA depends on the love
and unity of its members. This love isn't kissing and hugging but
purity of heart, obeying the teachings with hearts belonging to and
filled with the love of God. Hand of the Cause of God Bill Sears told
me American Baha'is do not, do not, I repeat obey God.
Barbara Clements
>I find it hard to believe that you could give up so easily after your
>dealings with your LSA. As Barbara suggested, why didn't you talk to your
>Auxiliary Board member? Why didn't you contact the NSA?
Javan,
The Auxiliary Board is, in my opinion, one of the best kept secrets in the
Baha'i Faith in the US. Most American Baha'is don't know what their
purpose is and rarely ever see a Board member. Many years ago, I was very
lucky and lived in an area where the Board members for both protection and
propagation also lived. I knew them personally and because they were close
by, I was able to consult with them several times.
Since that time, I have lived in two other states and in the past six
years, I have seen three Auxiliary Board members once each, they all live
in states other than the one I am living in. Its very hard for Board
members to work full-time, perform their family duties, AND travel to the
different communities in their multi-state areas.
It's not Ellen's fault that she didn't know to go to an Auxiliary Board
member. If American Baha'is think about the Auxiliary Board at all, they
think the member for propagation is only involved in cheerleading teaching
projects and they really don't know what the member for protection is for.
Barbara
William P. Collins
<SNIP>
> I see the LSA's role as a facilitator for the communities. If they start
> exercising power or manipulated believers then they are wrong and I would
> stand up to point that out to them, privately of course.
It may be useful to note that the problem Mr. Barzakhi had regarding his
wedding reception was NOT a problem with the Local Spiritual Assembly, but
with two individuals who were cornered by his father and then started
talking before any research had been done. An Assembly that I served on
dealt with a similar situation where there was only to be a Baha'i wedding
(no ceremony of another religion) and the bride and her parents were
Baha'is. The groom's family wanted alcoholic beverages at the reception;
the bride and her parents, following Baha'i requirements, did not. The
Assembly met with the couple and fully explained the teachings, clearly
articulated in the Assembly handbook, that a Baha'i wedding and reception
should not have alcoholic beverages. "No Baha'i should serve alcohol at any
function or reception given by him, such as a wedding reception or a party
to which a number of people are invited." (Letter written on behalf of the
Universal House of Justice, dated February 8, 1982, to a National Spiritual
Assembly in "Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities"). The Assembly
suggested that if the groom's family wished to celebrate with alcohol, they
could easily do so after the conclusion of the wedding reception with their
own funds and in whatever location they chose. After much consultation, the
groom and his mother were able to abide by this requirement and convey it to
the rest of the family without rancor.
It is important that we not downgrade the Spiritual Assemblies (Houses of
Justice) to mere clearing houses or facilitators. They do serve such
functions, but they are also institutions that exercise legislative and
judicial functions in the community, with authority to promote justice.
Justice inevitably involves some exercise of power over the community and
the individual. It involves correction of the behavior of members where
such behavior may be harming others or the community. The Assembly promotes
rectitude of conduct. An Assembly's exercise of the powers vested in it is
not, per se, a reason to believe that the Assembly's decision is wrong. An
Assembly's decision is also not to be judged as objectively wrong simply
because one disagrees with it. It is more likely to be wrong when it does
not conform to the writings or when it is not reached through the proper
consultative procedures.
The main difficulties that plague individuals in their relationships to
Assemblies appear to be: (1) individual Baha'is who happen to be Assembly
members taking action without Assembly consultation, (2) lack of full and
complete consultation in advance of decision, (3) lack of full communication
about the decisions made by an Assembly, or (4) inability or unwillingness
on the part of individuals receiving Assembly guidance to understand that
they have only a part of the picture (the Assembly's guidance to me about
what I should do does not necessarily include an explanation of the guidance
or requirements that the Assembly has placed on other parties to the
controversy).
I highly recommend a study of the compilation on "The Local Spiritual
Assembly" for a deeper understanding of this institution. This is included
in the "Compilation of Compilations, volume II" from Australia, and it is
also published as a separate booklet.
Bill Collins
Romana Harrison
For years i have known that often the biggest tests we have in the Faith,
are the Friends themselves. We are imperfect, struggling along to do the
best we can with our current capacities.
i too have had my difficulties with administrations. Nor are Auxilary Board
members always right. One Auxilary Board member, to whom about 3 of us had
told of difficulties with a believer (a matriarch of the community) who
while loving the Faith, had none the less hurt many hearts of believers and
seekers alike and turned them from the Faith with gossiping and harsh words.
The weekly firesides were held in her home, therefor causing us grave
concern. We knew the Board member was friends with her, but did not know
that she would not only talk to this person on a personal not official
level, but tell her the names of those who had raised concerns about her.
Our lives in that community became hell-like after that, and we all withdrew
from regular active participation for many years. The negative public
behaviors of that individual continues still unabated after years. This
situation was taken to the NSA by someone else, but again, the person was
counseled the activity still continued though and nothing was really done.
When i finally moved to another neighboring community, i went to the LSA (on
belhalf of myself and the other 2 who still had concerns and were
withdrawn)who was well aware of the difficulties caused by this individual
and they gave me their love, kindness, understanding and support. She had
caused difficulties within their community as well. They offered to take
this again to that Auxilary Board member, or NSA, but i did not see the
point of doing this again. So we decided simply to pray for the situation.
This LSA, with it's paitence to listen to us filled me with love and healed
my heart and brought me back to the fold after years of isolation. They
were the most loving, kind and light-filled people i had ever met. While
they could not right the injustice done to us by the AB member, they did
right it in our hearts with their love and understanding.
It still stings sometimes, but i have forgiven all concerned. i know there
are others who have not forgiven and have withdrawn, some will never go
back, and i find that tragic. But, the wheat and the chaff will be
seperated, and we must be strong enough to continue on the field in behalf
of Baha'u'llah. We must rise above the personalities of the individual, and
sometimes, even the institutions and ask ourselves, what would Abdu'l Baha'
tell us to do, how would He desire we handle this situation? He was our
Expempler, and i find that when i am hurt by others in the Faith, i think of
His love and try to manifest it to those that have hurt me, and i find i
become stronger in the process.
Above all... KIND WORDS and compassion should be our hallmark. Speaking to
the heart of those that have been hurt. Not railing against them for why
didn't they do this or that, or how could they not have known to do this or
that. i never heard of an AB member myself until i had been a Baha'i for
many years. Never met one before and had no idea what they do.
Remember, Abdu'l Baha worked so hard to not hurt any hearts. If we strive to
do the same, then i firmly belive we would have many more Baha'is (and
active Baha'is as well) then we do. Most of the inactive's i have met
(myself included) are because their hearts have been hurt. It is NOT our
place to judge nor condem those that are different from ourselves or have
less knowledge or understanding of how things are 'supposed' to work in the
Faith. We must also remember that we do not know what the capacities of
others may be and we cannot assume they have the same as we do.
with love for all,
RH
"Choose Being Kind over Being Right"
-Dr. Richard Carlson-
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
Dempsey Morgan
this process after serving on four different mass teaching NTCs and four
different mass teaching NSAs in Asia and Africa. Part of my problem here
is that I am black in a white country where race prejudice abounds
especially in the South where I have pioneered in six different states
and served on four different LSAs having been chairman of the LSA of
Columbia, South Carolina where I brought in 95% of the believers and
here in Bristol, Va. where I brought in 99% of the believers as a
servent of His Holiness Baha'u'llah. In my LSA now the white believes
will not meet with the black believers. We are half white and half
black members in the Baha'i community. I brought all of them into the
Faith. We were assigned two white assistents of the board who live in
white neighborhoods that can not be frequented comfortably by blacks.
Friends, this is racism and this is one element against mass teaching.
The last great black teacher in the South was Louis Gregory who was
sponsered by His Holiness Abdu'l Baha and who was a lawyer at the turn
of the 19th century. His Holiness Abdu'l Baha married Hand of the Cause
of God Louis Gregory to a white English woman who could not travel with
her husband to teach in the South. She pioneered and travelled in Europe
along with that indomitable Hand of the Cause of God Martha Root. I
have had the honor to meet some of the believers Hand of the Cause of
God Louis Gregory brought into the Faith in South Carolina and in
Arkansas some 40 years later. These believers brought in by Hand Louis
Gregory were like strong foundations in the Faith. Some of you might
have known the late Ms. Jessie Entzminger of South Carolina.
In Asia and Africa we mass teachers had control of the NSAs. Jamshed
Fozdar was chair, his mother Shirin was vice-chair and I was secretary
of the NSA in South East Asia. In Uganda which I call Mr. Ali
Nakhjavan's NSA, I was vice-chair. In Central Africa I was chair of that
NSA. In Tchad i was chair of that NSA. Now these places have milions of
good believers. In 1963 we had more believers in Vietnam than in the
USA.
Ellen Green
Sears, when he was visiting Massachusetts many years ago. I was
touched with one thing foremost. At the time he was quite weak, not
feeling well at all. The moment he walked onto the stage it was
evident that the spirit of God had filled him. His voice was
powerful, and his demeaner strong. I was touched with the power of
the love that he had for all of the bahai's in the audience. They
were sending him their love and it made him strong. If only we could
treat all Bahai's in that way, giving each friend that boost of love,
think how it would be. Dempsey, what you said.. do you think that is
true?
I think that American Bahai's are power hungry. They gravitate
towards people who can make them feel powerful, or important. But do
we realize that the power in the case of someone like William Sears
comes from LOVE. I don't think so. It is interesting to watch people
at gatherings when perhaps a member of the NSA is present, people
change. They seem to be pulling at the very cores of these people.
Years ago when we lived in Massachusetts, we were in a community where
we had many Persian Bahai's. One of these Bahai's was related to a
member of The Universal House of Justice. When that man came to town
to visit his daughter he actually had to HIDE from the Bahai's. He
felt so bad about it but they wouldn't leave him alone. It was sad to
see this gentle man wanting only to be with his family, but he instead
had to attend fancy dinners and be treated like a Hollywood Star.
I guess my point is this, we are all special, we are all striving
toward a strong spiritual life. We should treat each Bahai as a
treasure. I think that we all need to remember what we are and be the
beacons for humanity which God has asked us to be.
Dempsey Morgan" <bahai...@webtv.net> wrote in message news:<kQCHOD.A....@bounty.bcca.org>...
Javan Barzakhi
active and I would there is enough of them to meet the task at hand. Sounds
like a relatively simple problem to solve. It may be something your
delegates can take to your convention for consultation and consideration by
your NSA.
"Barbara Clements" <ln5...@semovm.semo.edu> wrote in message
news:3Fis8.39033$l7.40...@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Karen Bacquet
>
> Since that time, I have lived in two other states and in the past six
> years, I have seen three Auxiliary Board members once each, they all live
> in states other than the one I am living in. Its very hard for Board
> members to work full-time, perform their family duties, AND travel to the
> different communities in their multi-state areas.<<
Dear Barbara,
I think this is a very important point. I know of four times our community
was visited by ABMs, in the thirteen years I was enrolled: once as a
speaker at Unit Convention, twice because of concerns over
covenant-breakers, and once because of a complaint about personality
conflicts on the LSA. Just recently, the ABMs were having meetings in
several communities but never made it up this far -- not even close.
Realistically, there's not very much an ABM who lives three or four hours
away is going to be able to do about entrenched internal problems. Our
community was quite dysfunctional, and it never occurred to me to call an
ABM. I did talk to some of the friends once about calling an Assistant, but
they were afraid that it would make matters worse.(The Assistants were about
40 minutes away; there were none in our community, except for a very brief
time.) Certainly the time the ABM came over personality conflicts did no
good at all, and just caused hurt feelings.
Sometimes there is no cure for a community, other than just having a whole
other bunch of people there.
Love, Karen
Ellen Green
Regarding myself, my family , and the Assembly in question.
Members of the Assembly called our friends, demanded that they listen
to all charges against my husband. ( Which were all fabrications. )
Members of the Assembly in question visited members of our community
brought with them letters which had been written about my husband and
DEMANDED that community members read the letters.
When people refused the Assembly in question wrote to the NSA and reported that
many community members were not abiding with directives from an
LSA.
I was always lead to believe that an Assembly is only an Assembly when
9 members are present, and that INDIVIDUALS are just that. The
members of the Assembly in question acted very badly.
Indeed it seemed to be only one or two people who were members of
the Assembly that had a vendeta against our family. But the results were
the same.
Because this particular Assembly is made up of LONG TIME Bahai's who
have ties to the NSA, people in our area bow to their opinions.
Things like this cause the Faith to be looked at in the wrong way.
Our 19 year old son, who was raised in the Faith has turned away,
feeling that the Faith has become cult like. Our Daughter who at the
time was 21 and a declared Bahai was deeply hurt by these actions and
felt that the people from the community and Assembly in question were
acting like they were conducting a "witch hunt".
All because a very clever woman who hadn't been able to lead my
husband away decided to ruin our lives. It was done with a vengance,
she looked into personal files at my husbands palce on employment,
discovered that he was a member of the Bahai Faith. She then
contacted National got names, began attending firesides, declared,
MAILED us a photo copy of her membership card. Then went to the
Assembly telling them that she and my husband were involved in an
affair and she was "feeling very badly about it now that she was a
Bahai."
The Assembly in question set out to PROVE her correct in any way
possible. We set out to PROVE that she had entered the Faith only to
cause trouble for our family and our community.
"William P. Collins" <wc...@loc.gov> wrote in message
news:<z1ks8.55191$%i.52...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.
com>...
john haukness
Organization: john haukness
Dear Friends: Karen's letter touches my heart as a homefront
pioneer.
I think we can put questions of our Institutions and individuals
carrying
degrees of dysfunctioning within them into perspective by asking
one
question: What do you expect?
Ok we are human we expect perfection, we want a rose garden, we
want to
illness no sacrifice and we want money to grow on trees, but aside
from that
what do we expect?
Look around at the old, rich, established Catholic Church's current
turmoil,
it puts our troubles in the Baha'i Faith into prespective. Or look at
the US
Supreme Courts functioning from Al Gores perspective?
The point is, what would you expect from a new world religion
forming new
little Assemblies all over the world and appointing new Assistants to
Board
members and new Board members? Would you expect if anyone
else besides the
Baha'is were to set up a world wide system of Assemblies that they
wouldn't
have serious problems and serious deficiencies from time to time?
Or do you think any non-Baha'is could do it and have perfection
right away?
Like go out into outer Mongolia, rural South Dakota, downtown Lima
Peru,
reqruit 9 new people, your new so you can't always get the nine
most famous
and seasoned people to join your new group, you might have to
accept some
people on the fringes in fact to form your new assemblies.
Now if you look at it that way you may even say, that would be a bad
idea,
it would be better not to form new Assemblies for justice based on
new
people running the new Assemblies, it would be better to use the old
traditional institutions. Which of course Baha'u'llah realises and
ingrained
into His New Administration that His new on earth Assemblies work
with the
existing traditional forms of legislators.
But, our new on earth Local Spiritual Assemblies are going to make
mistakes,
sometimes unfortuneatly serious mistakes. Baha'u'llah had verses
for that,
one was if a fellow Baha'i knocks you down, get up and forgive that
person
and see Baha'u'llah in that person's face. See that every Baha'i,
even the
wrong ones reflect Baha'u'llah. The wrong ones just reflect what
Baha'is
don't want to do. You have to see what not to do to see it.
Well this is getting a little abstract now. But the question is do you
expect a new religion to start of perfect. Look in todays paper of one
of
the most esteemed religious groups on earth, the Catholics, and not
to pick
on them, but if you say Baha'is have pain and suffering within their
Faith,
well right now the Catholics are airing out their dirty laundry too.
So, have a good airing out all, and carry on, Ya Baha El Abha. john
------- End of forwarded message -------
Albertv
"Ellen Green" <mgree...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:i7Gt8.12643$iw.11...@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
>
.
>
> I was always lead to believe that an Assembly is only an Assembly when
> 9 members are present, and that INDIVIDUALS are just that. The
> members of the Assembly in question acted very badly.
>
The Spiritual Assembly can operate if five members are present.
The Spiritual Assembly is an Institution and as such 'it' has
authority.
The decisions of the Spiritual Assembly are binding on the Baha'is
in the locality under its jurisdiction. An individual can appeal to
a higher Institution but while that Institution deliberates the individual
has to obey his local Spiritual Assembly.
The members of the Institution are like any other members of the
community
other than they have the bounty to serve the Local Spiritual
Assembly.
The Covenant of Baha'u'llah is very clear about the fact that we can
not
claim to be faithful without obedience to the Administrative Order.
"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition
of Him
Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His
laws, Who
representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and
the world
of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good;
and
whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the
author of
every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most
sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every
ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties
are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it
been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration"
-- Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas 19
"A perusal of some of the words of Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá on
the
duties and functions of the Spiritual Assemblies in every land (later
to be
designated as the local Houses of Justice), emphatically reveals the
sacredness of their nature, the wide scope of their activity, and the
grave responsibility which rests upon them."
-- Shoghi Effendi, Bahá'í Administration 20
"The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be
established wherein shall gather counsellors to the number of Bahá,
and should it exceed this number it doth not matter. They should
consider themselves as entering the Court of the presence of God,
the Exalted, the Most High, and as beholding Him Who is the
Unseen.
It behoveth them to be the trusted ones of the Merciful among men
and to regard themselves as the guardians appointed of God for
all that dwell on earth. It is incumbent upon them to take counsel
together and to have regard for the interests of the servants of God,
for His sake, even as they regard their own interests, and to choose
that which is meet and seemly. Thus hath the Lord your God
commanded you. Beware lest ye put away that which is clearly
revealed in His Tablet. Fear God, O ye that perceive."
-- Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas 29
" `Abdu'l-Bahá reveals the following:--"It is incumbent upon every
one not to take any step without consulting the Spiritual Assembly,
and they must assuredly obey with heart and soul its bidding and
be submissive unto it, that things may be properly ordered and
well arranged. Otherwise every person will act independently
and after his own judgment, will follow his own desire, and do
harm to the Cause.""
-- Shoghi Effendi, Unfolding Destiny 6
The Power of the Covenant in this Faith flows through the
Institutions
and not through the individuals. We can't rightly claim we are being
faithful to Baha'u'llah without obedience to the Institutions He
created.
If anyone has any other ideas, proof it.
In other words if anyone things they can just 'believe in Baha'u'llah'
and shun the Baha'i community they in MO are deluding
themselves.
I further think we as individual Baha'is can not judge the Spiritual
Assembly decisions as being made by 'bad' individuals. Our duty
is to obey, for the power to judge does not lie with us. This is
Gods message for today. My take on this is personal, however,
for clarification consult the Writings, The Auxiliary Board, the
National
Spiritual Assembly, the Counselors and the Universal House of
Justice.
Regards,
Albert J. Verbrugh.
Ellen Green
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
Albert, Thank you, you have shown me again clearly and profoundly,
why I left the Faith. People like you. Now I am certain that this
answer will be censored so you may never see it. But at least I am
speaking with my heart and now mearly spouting words. The Bahaullah I
know, understand and love would shed tears over your coldness. The
God that I know would shed tears over your coldness. The Assembly I
knew would welcome you with open arms and praise you for your
knowledge. Who would I rather serve. God and Bahaullah as if I am
THE ONLY BAHAI. and GOODBYE
"Albertv" <alb...@verbrugh.net> wrote in message
news:<GJX7RD.A....@bounty.bcca.org>...
OOsight
determine what we will do
...how we will respond to situations good and bad...
use the writtings to demostrate and reinforce the behavior you want and want
demostrated in your community...they are weapons and tools for us Bahais as
well as for bringing in seekers and conquering territories....
.. and remember sometimes you have to bring Bahais into the faith..as well as
seekers
ABM Lloyd Lawrence
J.K.A. Singh-Rathore
The "ABM" (Auxiliary Board Member) preceding the signature of this author
may wrongly lead one to believe that there are some titles accorded to some
select Baha'is. Hence, it is necessary to clarify to all readers that there
are no such titles in the Baha'i Faith.
--JKA
Brussels, BELGIUM
"OOsight" <oos...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a9muel$c59$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
john haukness
the Baha'i Faith in regards to the "Auxiliary Board Member"?
Would someone clarify what is being conveyed here. That that is not a title?
That someone misused it? that it cannot be abbreviated or what? au revoir j
RefugeeDeveloper
say too seriously at the moment. ;0) (sorry). NSA, ofcourse, but most
LSAs are the equivalent of local parish church councils. In the future
of course but at the moment things are a bit different.
a little bit of common sense goes a loooooooooooooooong way ;0)
in one ear out the other, in other words. ;0). Solves lots of
problems.
refugee
Lets hope there is peace soon amongst us, otherwise we all die.
"Ellen Green" <mgree...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<_GN7XC.A....@bounty.bcca.org>...
dmcadam
Dear Refugee-
I do not believe you are rude my friend but I sure wish you would reveal
your identity so I feel I am speaking with a Baha'i brother in spirit and
not some anonymous writer. However I do feel you are mistaken about the
attitude you have towards our elected community institutions. The Local
Spiritual Assemblies are to be regarded highly by individuals and for
sure taken real serious. I know we are a long way from reaching the
level we potentially have but at the same time the Writings are very
clear about what our attitude should be towards the Assemblies. If you
can produce some quotes to back up your conclusions I will consider them
but at the moment, in a quick review of a few concerning the station of
Assemblies and the relationship of believers to them I don't find any of
them saying we should obey, honor, respect, etc. "only if we feel they
are up to our standards".
The Beloved Master said that "Over them he spreadeth his wings." And he
further stated in God Passes By p. 332 "From them the spirit of of life
streameth in every direction. They, indeed , are the potent sources
ofthe progress of man, at all times and under all conditions."
I note especially the last phrases of "at all times and under all
conditions.". To me we must surely take our Assemblies very serious.
warmly,
doug
Kokomo, IN
Mac
of rampant individualism?
One may be so much the rugged individual as to believe one need
not listen to the advice of the Institutions --- although we are
told that the Institutions are granted especial authority.
Please let me know your approach to this.
And also your reason for not abiding by what a Local Spiritual
Assembly might decide, having employed the appropriate routine to
ensure the spiritual "safeguarding" of decisions.
Thank you;
Mac
****************
On 22 Apr 2002 18:12:29 -0400, refugeed...@yahoo.co.in
(RefugeeDeveloper) wrote:
>Okay without sounding rude, I dont take anything the local assemblies
>say too seriously at the moment. ;0) (sorry). NSA, ofcourse, but most
>LSAs are the equivalent of local parish church councils. In the future
>of course but at the moment things are a bit different.
>
>a little bit of common sense goes a loooooooooooooooong way ;0)
>
>in one ear out the other, in other words. ;0). Solves lots of
>problems.
>
>refugee
>
RefugeeDeveloper
news:<LMk-3B.A....@bounty.bcca.org>...
> Reply to RefugeeDeveloper message 4/22/2002 6:12 PM
>
> Dear Refugee-
> I do not believe you are rude my friend but I sure wish you would reveal
> your identity
But I sure dont wish to reveal my identity. Sorry.
No I am from a Bahai, and from a Bahai family.
I actually prefer to write
anonymously, as it aids free expression, and anyway its half the fun.
>However I do feel you are mistaken about the
> attitude you have towards our elected community institutions. The Local
> Spiritual Assemblies are to be regarded highly by individuals and for
> sure taken real serious. I know we are a long way from reaching the
> level we potentially have but at the same time the Writings are very
> clear about what our attitude should be towards the Assemblies.
well I dont think I am mistaken. Sorry.
If you
> can produce some quotes to back up your conclusions I will consider them
> but at the moment, in a quick review of a few concerning the station of
> Assemblies and the relationship of believers to them I don't find any of
> them saying we should obey, honor, respect, etc. "only if we feel they
> are up to our standards".
I have no quotes. All Im saying
is that Im using a bit of common sense - the insititutions may be holy
in spirit, but as insititutions they
are at the 'embryonic' stage of development. In other words they are
'baby'
LSAs at the moment, and currently, have to be treated as such.
So you know say you have a dispute with your wife, and say
youre in a community of 11, 9 of whom become assembly members
you and your wife included, and your mother in law from 3 miles away
also in the
assembly, then in such a situation even though the assembly may be
holy in spirit, it is practically speaking in a position where it can
only -- help out -- in your problem, but not give authorative
statements.
In other words a baby assembly, the equivalent of a parish council,
and not to be taken too seriously. In the future things will be
different ofcourse.
Lets give another example -- lets say I have a little bad secret -- Im
having
an affair with whoever, for whatever reason.
In such a situation Not only is the assembly which includes my wife
not an appropriate forum for resolving this problem, but also I dont
really appreciate all the local people in my religious community, whom
I know on a personal
basis from knowing the ins
and outs of my 'problem' in detail. Its rather embarrassing if you
know what I mean.
In the future of course things will be different I guess.
In other words -- a bit of common sense goes a long way.
> The Beloved Master said that "Over them he spreadeth his wings."
Well AbdulBaha died 100 years ago. He is with us in spirit only I
guess.
(oooops. Bad news for me. Im not joking.)
> warmly,
> doug
> Kokomo, IN
Sorry for the English. Im somewhere where people dont speak English.
Learning new languages. ;0)
In Peace.
janine van rooij
I do agree with what you say, in a way. We should treat the LSA with respect
but I have been in situations in which I felt I could not bring a certain
issue to my particular LSA because of family members or because of a general
attitude within the LSA towards issues like I had that I knew would not shed
any light on it at all for me. In those cases I went to my Auxiliary Board
Member and one of the assistants. In one case I went directly to the NSA.
But we should be careful not to assume things. In one instance I went to my
LSA, with all kinds of prejudices on how they would react. I went to the LSA
because I thought it was a problem the LSA would have to deal with a lot
more in the near future and also because I was aware I had preconceived
ideas and I felt I trusted not enough in the wisdom an instution can get
when its individual members come together as an institution. The way the LSA
reacted was a pleasant surprise, showing much more wisdom, maturity,
understanding and love than what I had thought would happen.
It is good to try to assess the level our particular LSA is at, yet you
cannot assume too much is my opinion. After all, the Writings tell us that
this religion comes from God and that there is such a thing as divine
inspiration and that the institutions of the faith are channels for the
guidance of God.
Janine van rooij
>From: refugeed...@yahoo.co.in (RefugeeDeveloper)
>Reply-To: bahai...@bcca.org
>To: bahai...@bcca.org
>Subject: Re: Former Bahai has a question.
>Date: 22 Apr 2002 18:12:29 -0400
>Received: from [208.133.44.40] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id
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>Xref: news.bcca.org soc.religion.bahai:25671
>
>Okay without sounding rude, I dont take anything the local assemblies
>say too seriously at the moment. ;0) (sorry). NSA, ofcourse, but most
>LSAs are the equivalent of local parish church councils. In the future
>of course but at the moment things are a bit different.
>
>a little bit of common sense goes a loooooooooooooooong way ;0)
>
>in one ear out the other, in other words. ;0). Solves lots of
>problems.
>
>refugee
>
>Lets hope there is peace soon amongst us, otherwise we all die.
>
>
>"Ellen Green" <mgree...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:<_GN7XC.A....@bounty.bcca.org>...
> > I left the Bahai Faith about 5 years ago after a disturbing encounter
> > with a local spiritual assembly.
>
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